It's too strong/weak...PATCH OR ADAPT?

DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Ibuki and Juri BUFFZJoined: Posts: 52,389 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
The big issue with pretty much every recent relevant fighting game. The power struggle between what is too good/bad and whether it should be patched to correctness, or if people should play to advance the meta and correct the issue on their own. We've seen these struggles multiple times in games like SFIV where sometimes patching works and sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes a character gets nerfed into the ground like Seth in SFIV, then all of a sudden a few people suddenly man up and adapt to his playstyle and he suddenly shoots up the tier list despite his nerfs.

You also have situations like Injustice where Scorpion was deemed too strong. He was nerfed and now not only is he not super strong anymore, nobody seems to really care to pick him anymore while Superman remains less touched and still very relevant. In Mortal Kombat there was so much complaining about the patching going left and right it was ridiculous.

Even with games like Skullgirls where the mantra was "we want to make strong characters and have people adapt to issues instead of patching". That was all good until people started complaining about how good hornet bomber assist was. MikeZ showed a video of what you could do to "adapt" or fight against it and yet soon enough, despite that the assist was very much nerfed and now no longer one of the regularly used defensive assists. Then slowly patch after patch would come that would change things that weren't even very necessary to change and just threw the game in with the pack of fighting games that change stuff without really getting anything meaningful done.



Now part of the reason I really got into this game was that like Skullgirls before, the devs working on the game are very in tune with fighting games and some have regularly competed in fighting game tournaments for years. Which means they have a great handle of how things are patched and how people have learned to adapt to things that are too strong or too weak rather than having a patch do it for them that homogenizes the meta. I hope they do follow this and don't pander to every other request for nerf without watching the best players show if said issue can be adapted to. Which is basically watching the meta evolve.

Whenever there seems to be an issue with balance I always feel it should come down to...

1. There is an issue. Something is too strong/weak so let's try to ADAPT to it and find strategies to work around it first.

2. Evaluate whether players at the highest level of play have adapted to said issue of the character.

3. If they have adapted, keep the workings of the character as is. The ways to adapt to said issue can be taught to the more intermediate players in the dojo mode or in video tutorials. If it is clearly something the players can not adapt to, then force patching.



I feel these simple steps are key to making a fighting game that doesn't patch just to patch. Instead makes only occasional patches for when things are most necessary. I hope Double Helix takes to this and doesn't turn this into another patch fest where the players can't simply evolve the game like fighting games of old. It makes sense to patch things that are totally out of hand or can not simply be fixed through adapting, but otherwise I would like to see a very "pure" meta evolve. Thanks DH.








To add, I'll input what I've heard commonly as far as strengths/weaknesses for each character.


Jago: Haven't really heard many people complain about Jago. Just very well rounded for the most part. Some people play "annoying runaway Jago" but that's just a playstyle that can be dealt with at the highest level easily enough. His instinct is definitely one of the more powerful ones and useful inbetween life bars. His around the world chains with instinct plus frames could prove to be rather devastating in the future.

Sabrewulf: Well, it's Sabrewulf. Some people complain that his special moves are bit negative on block, but otherwise people seem to understand the strength of the character. Arguably fastest character in the game on the ground and his walk speed is probably only bested by Orchid. Solid normals on the ground that have plus frames for setting up frame traps and his left/right mix ups involving his dash are arguably scarier than some of the jump cross ups in the game. His Shadow Eclipse is also very scary since it locks your inputs after the freeze. It takes 6 frames to start up, but once the screen freezes it starts on frame 0 after the freeze which means if you weren't blocking after the freeze you're getting hit. Which can set up a lot of interesting shenanigans. His instinct will also prove to be one of the more powerful since it basically just makes an already very damaging character, do MORE damage.

Glacius: Arguably the character people complain about the most. He is pretty much a tribute to the trend of 2d fighting games bringing back the lost art of trapping and zoning that pretty much died from fighting games after Super Turbo's release and only really resurfaced in some of the Marvel vs. Capcom games (Cable/Sent, Spiral/Sent, Blackheart etc.). Glacius is arguably a fairer versions of those character concepts. Has a bit of Dormammu, Viper, Eddie and other ranged defense/offense based characters. This can be quite annoying to initially deal with especially for anyone who solely plays 3d fighting games since this long ranged element is near nonexistent in those games. Despite that he has one fatal flaw which is horribly slow movement which I feel people will learn to ADAPT to as time goes on.

Thunder: A character that I haven't heard too much complaint about yet. It still remains to be seen if he can have his own place in the meta in a game that is very combo heavy. It was weird to even think of how the concept of a grappler would work in a KI style game but they seem to have done a solid job putting him together. Has very strong tools for a grappler including ones that most grapplers usually don't have (long reaching low attacks, dragon punch with projectile invincibility, combo into throws) and I think is part of what will keep him relevant. Too many grapplers these days are just about the grappling and don't get the fundamentals that are required to stay relevant.

Sadira: Probably the second most complained about character next to Glacius. Subpar on the ground to some degree. Although I will say her normals and walk speed are very strong for a mix up/gimmick type character that is normally shat on in that department in a game like SFIV. I like how they allow her to be an annoying busy bee, mix up type character but still give her solid fundamentals on the ground to some respect. Pretty much all of her actions in the air outside of her dive kick seem pretty safe so she definitely is a character meant to stay in the air. Considering most of the other cast is very grounded in comparison for a lot of people it feels like fighting against a Marvel or Skullgirls character in a SF game. Luckily though it seems like people are adapting to her rather well so far and it doesn't seem like she has quite dominated in the past week or so online or in high level match videos as people originally seemed to portray.

Orchid: The perpetual "low tier" of the game. Haven't really heard anyone talk about her being too good and if anything, have just heard that she seems underwhelming. Main thing people bring up is that her special moves are all unsafe on block. Which to note other fighting games I've played, I've seen quite a few characters be very strong in a fighting game despite initial worrying of their frame data (Vergil in Marvel). We'll see what happens with her in the future but it seems early on that she's the one that people are calling on for some buffs.

Kunoichi is always in V Trigger

BUFF CITY.  Population IBUKI


SFV: Ibuki (Main Bae), Juri (Buffed Bae), Chun Li (Needs Buffs Bae)

KOF XIV: Nakoruru/Iori/KDash

SFIV: Nobody hate that shit (PROTIP: Everyone on SRK hates SFIV)

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Comments

  • AabraAabra Joined: Posts: 130
    I agree with most of what´s being said here. Sadira is a great mixup character however most people don't seem to understand just how weak her wakeup game is. After she is knocked down she is in a world of trouble against somebody who understands just how poor her wakeup options are compared to the rest of the cast. Shadow Recluse is absolutely terrible as a wakeup move once you know its weakness. Once more people understand that and take advantage of it I think you will hear a lot less complaints about her.

    Orchid... it remains early in the game of course but for me she just seems like a worse version of Sabrewulf. She has a real problem getting in but once she's in.... the high low mixups can be incredibly difficult to deal with. I just feel that Sabrewulf rushes down a lot better than Orchid.

    While it's definitely too early to do a proper analysis of stuff - I do feel that Sabrewulf's Shadow Eclipse is too much. On wakeup he dashes back and forth 8 times and then just does it. Since you can't change the way you're blocking it's an automatic hit. There's no mind games or adaptation to that. All it needs is a 2 frame startup... heck make those 2 frames invincible even so he can't be hit. If I'm crouch blocking I should at least be given the chance to switch the way I'm blocking... if I started to jump or hit any button at all then sure hit me but we've got a local Sabrewulf player here who basically just abuses that move for 22% damage 5-6 times per match and it honestly feels like there's no a whole lot you can do about it. Adapting to a 0 frame startup move that basically hits the entire screen and is invincible is easier said than done.
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Ibuki and Juri BUFFZ Joined: Posts: 52,389 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Yeah I think considering how strong Sadira is in the air her bad wake up game is just. Everyone has shadow counter as a universal get off me technique. You just have to learn to block to use it first. Something most average players still have trouble doing.

    Yeah so far people say Orchid is a worse version of other characters, but she may just need more discovery. Her double autu doubles/linkers could prove to be powerful for combo mind games also.

    Kunoichi is always in V Trigger

    BUFF CITY.  Population IBUKI


    SFV: Ibuki (Main Bae), Juri (Buffed Bae), Chun Li (Needs Buffs Bae)

    KOF XIV: Nakoruru/Iori/KDash

    SFIV: Nobody hate that shit (PROTIP: Everyone on SRK hates SFIV)

    3S: Ibuki (main), Alex

    If I ever pick up Xrd: Johnny

    PSN: PervyJin01

    CFN: PervyJin01 (PS4) Twitch: c88deviljin01

  • AcidGlowAcidGlow ~Misogi~ Joined: Posts: 407
    This is a great topic. I've been wondering about Glacius myself after looking at some frame data and various setups.
  • GespenstRitterGespenstRitter The Sharp-Eyed Impaler Joined: Posts: 3,009
    Glacius: Arguably the character people complain about the most. He is pretty much a tribute to the trend of 2d fighting games bringing back the lost art of trapping and zoning that pretty much died from fighting games after Super Turbo's release and only really resurfaced in some of the Marvel vs. Capcom games (Cable/Sent, Spiral/Sent, Blackheart etc.). Glacius is arguably a fairer versions of those character concepts.
    Holy shit, have you played any airdash game that's not Marvel?
    You should be watching Thunderbolt Fantasy.
  • AwakeAwake Joined: Posts: 52
    It's better to just let the game settle then maybe, maybe a year into it when the new characters have also settled then you patch it a little. Every game that gets reactionary patches ultimately suffers in the end.

    I believe DH are just focused on getting Spinal and Fulgore out right now.

  • AabraAabra Joined: Posts: 130
    Great video Acideglow - pretty much agree with everything you said... which is why Glacius is at the top of my personal tier list. Those Shadow Hail into unblockable shatter setups...
  • LockMLockM Joined: Posts: 2,318
    Let the game breath atleast till march before speaking of any patching.
    One character might be considered strong now but who knows where they'll end up in a few months.
    SFV: Juri, Cammy
    GGREV: Baiken, Millia
    USFIV: Yun, Cody, Guy




  • VaarpVaarp tier insi.d/ght.er Joined: Posts: 272
    DO NOT touch anything AT LEAST after EVO 2014. I hope Double Helix understand the game needs to grow as it is for now.
    NERF BUFF PATCH ADAPT?
  • Diek StiekemDiek Stiekem Team triple terror for MvCi Joined: Posts: 2,568 mod
    Another good thread, once again you're setting the tone for the KI community.
    Good job Jin :tup:
    "Such Heroic Nonsense!"

    PSN: DiekStiekem
    XBL: DiekStiekemSRK
  • Lord_RaptorLord_Raptor Joined: Posts: 8,809
    Glacius: Arguably the character people complain about the most. He is pretty much a tribute to the trend of 2d fighting games bringing back the lost art of trapping and zoning that pretty much died from fighting games after Super Turbo's release and only really resurfaced in some of the Marvel vs. Capcom games (Cable/Sent, Spiral/Sent, Blackheart etc.). Glacius is arguably a fairer versions of those character concepts.
    Holy shit, have you played any airdash game that's not Marvel?
    Hey if it's not KI it didn't happen, which is what it seems like with this section.

    That aside good OP FJ.
    Are you right? Are you READY!?
  • cowboyonicowboyoni Joined: Posts: 8
    For the competitive scene I think fighting games in general could learn a lot from traditional sports. NBA, NFL, FBS, NHL, MLB ect. make rule changes once a year at the most. Not saying that fighting games like KI should follow that exact model just that they should let things play out for a full 'season' to see where things are. In the case of KI I would say wait till after EVO (hoping it's in EVO). Though this does not apply in a case where something is clearly broken causing every tournament player to pick the same character. Somthing like that should be fixed immediately.

    Also would say that intermediate online play should not factor in at all. If 99% of people online get stuffed by a certain set up but 1% have no problem with punishing that same setup then there is nothing to be fixed. Just means that those 99% need to get better. Though on the other hand if the goal of the dev is to retain players maybe that is not such a good idea :)
  • ZedoxZedox Joined: Posts: 262
    As long as the combo system works the way it does in theory for each character, as in there's nothing that's unbreakable for guaranteed damage output for 100% of the time, the game is fine. Once we break that rule, that's when something needs to be patched. Otherwise, there's nothing wrong. Everything outside of the combo system are just ways for your character to get into the system. Seeing as those tools don't give big damage and all the damage really lies within the system, the chance for brokenness is low.
  • GespenstRitterGespenstRitter The Sharp-Eyed Impaler Joined: Posts: 3,009
    Zedox wrote: »
    As long as the combo system works the way it does in theory for each character, as in there's nothing that's unbreakable for guaranteed damage output for 100% of the time, the game is fine. Once we break that rule, that's when something needs to be patched.

    The KI community is the only one I've seen where guaranteed damage is considered a bad thing.
    You should be watching Thunderbolt Fantasy.
  • LouiscipherLouiscipher Joined: Posts: 8,177
    Well, the whole point of the game is to mix up your combos and not do the same thing over and over and over again because they can be broken.
    STOMP!
  • GespenstRitterGespenstRitter The Sharp-Eyed Impaler Joined: Posts: 3,009
    There's a certain irony in not wanting your combos to do the same thing more than once when most of your attacks involve the same animation repeating itself 2-5 times in a row.

    I'm just saying that if you told someone that you wanted to always be able to get out of damage when your opponent scores a hit on you in any other community, you'd be laughed out of the room.
    You should be watching Thunderbolt Fantasy.
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Ibuki and Juri BUFFZ Joined: Posts: 52,389 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    It took DOA a long time, but it looks like by DOA5 they have finally figured out how to make a "mix up" based combo system workable for tournaments. There's now more ways to attain guaranteed damage than in the previous games.

    Not really sure what any of that has to do with the thread since that's not getting patched outside of maybe requests for a small lockout during block punishment.

    Kunoichi is always in V Trigger

    BUFF CITY.  Population IBUKI


    SFV: Ibuki (Main Bae), Juri (Buffed Bae), Chun Li (Needs Buffs Bae)

    KOF XIV: Nakoruru/Iori/KDash

    SFIV: Nobody hate that shit (PROTIP: Everyone on SRK hates SFIV)

    3S: Ibuki (main), Alex

    If I ever pick up Xrd: Johnny

    PSN: PervyJin01

    CFN: PervyJin01 (PS4) Twitch: c88deviljin01

  • GespenstRitterGespenstRitter The Sharp-Eyed Impaler Joined: Posts: 3,009
    It took DOA a long time, but it looks like by DOA5 they have finally figured out how to make a "mix up" based combo system workable for tournaments. There's now more ways to attain guaranteed damage than in the previous games.

    I don't play DOA, so I'm not all that informed on its systems, but from my understanding, you can't hold out of juggles, and there's special stun states you can put people in that they can't hold out of. DOA has more instances where you can put opponents in a state of guaranteed damage without the influence of your opponent. In KI, with the exception of juggles (which don't do that much damage and can even be broken in certain instances anyway), getting guaranteed damage requires that your opponent performs some sort of action. You can't get a lockout without your opponent attempting to combo break.
    You should be watching Thunderbolt Fantasy.
  • Hanzo_HasashiHanzo_Hasashi Primal Rage rules Joined: Posts: 1,399 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    edited December 2013
    Zedox wrote: »
    As long as the combo system works the way it does in theory for each character, as in there's nothing that's unbreakable for guaranteed damage output for 100% of the time, the game is fine. Once we break that rule, that's when something needs to be patched.

    The KI community is the only one I've seen where guaranteed damage is considered a bad thing.

    Cause there is a ton of ways to open your opponent (since KI2 and KI3). Thanks god the Stun was removed since KI2. KI1 had unbreakable combos and 100% stun combos, Cinder gameplay devolved on that: s.fk, ff+mp, s,fp, fb+qp, sweep = dizzy and 55% life, rinse and repeat and dead (all of this was the LESS you had to worry vs cinder LOL go figure). Also s.fk was HARD to punish on block by 95% of the cast.

    Semi off topic:

    Watch this to get my point (KI Venezuelan tourney finals)



    Its IMPERATIVE that if there is a combo breaker mechanic in the game, that it WORKS haha
  • Lord_RaptorLord_Raptor Joined: Posts: 8,809
    You can create unbreakable situations that don't rely on your opponent guessing after you've punished. Normals thata re bad in nuetrl situatuions but great for punishing things like whiffed DPs that put them in lockout would only do wonders to help curtail certain shitthead strats in the game.
    Are you right? Are you READY!?
  • ifbpwnstarifbpwnstar Captain 'Murica Walking Wiki Joined: Posts: 1,199
    Anytime a game creates snowball set ups I feel I would rather patches come than wait it out. You can buff characters to help adjust the neutral, but unless you're giving everyone tools to get out of vortexes without taking super big risks, fighting games should really push to patch those out. The marvel mentality I hear is if everything is broken it's fair...and I just think that's a terrible logic. If there aren't answers, allowing tech to evolve so everyone has BS isn't good. On the flipside the game should be given time to breathe to avoid an MK scenario with most things. Really games should declare what they want that character to do and really focus patches around allowing that to define the character unless new tech really presents a cool shift. If your zoner suddenly dominates up close...you should probably fix that.
    UMvC3: Cap (SS) | Dante (jam) | Vergil (RS) and Vergil (RS) | Morrigan (meter) | Dante (Jam)
    SC5: Astaroth
    SC4: Ivy, Rock

  • JasonWalravenJasonWalraven Joined: Posts: 158
    even Chess has been patched over the centuries, but something to remember is that while sports and games like chess naturally have a much longer time to grow and evolve, fighting games by design only last a couple of years in the spotlight, then fade to a small base and for the most part don't get that many new players after the game passes it's peak, so any patches have to be made asap to get the people with the purse strings to pay for that stuff. To put into perspective take Ultimate Marval vs Capcom 3. In our little corner of the gaming Universe it is the highest rated game with the most hype. More stream views than most other games combined. Sold like shit. SFxT sold more copies and is ignored by streams. But as much as some tweaks need to be made that game, it didn't sell well enough to pay for an update
  • UnreallysticUnreallystic Painyatta Joined: Posts: 13,163
    The way the game is setup from a combo perspective - so much damage can be 'deterred' with practice - that - while I hesitate to say the characters are all the same - from a "comparative" stand point and tiering stand point - there just won't be a 'huge gap'.

    Typical things that lead to a huge disparity in character balance just don't hold as much water here. Sagat's c.Fp from CvS2? Stand alone attacks just don't "hurt" enough to change tiering. Extreme damage and ToD? ALL breakable. Even doing something like hk x dp->juggle - doesn't lead to significant damage from a tiering standpoint - and everyone can do it anyways haha. There is controlling space - no one TOUCHES Glacius in this regard, comments about his lack of a dash are overblown - he controls so much space that he is constantly generating pressure, even jumping forward with him puts his opponent in a 'guessing' stand point. That in itself is a huge advantage, and having an unblockable projectile can expand that even further. It doesn't 'break' him, but its one of the few true 'bonuses' in the game. Sadira will fade over time - she's a scrub killer. I think Saberwolf has a chance to succeed long term with his mixups, but there really just isn't enough of a different between the rest of the cast - IMO - for anything to be OP or UP. I'm pretty confident that 'time' will reveal this as tournaments will be won early on with Glacius & Saberwolf, and later on, by pretty much the whole cast. The game just needs time to breathe.
    - :bluu:
  • CaptainGinyuCaptainGinyu Choppin Bricks Like Karate Joined: Posts: 1,978
    There's a certain irony in not wanting your combos to do the same thing more than once when most of your attacks involve the same animation repeating itself 2-5 times in a row.

    I'm just saying that if you told someone that you wanted to always be able to get out of damage when your opponent scores a hit on you in any other community, you'd be laughed out of the room.

    Actually, each animation is different depending on the strength, top level players can see the difference.
    “When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.”-Jimi Hendrix
    Take the Raw Vegan challenge! Lol nah fam, I don't even do this shit anymore.

    SFV: Zangief Sub: Juri
    GGXRD Revalator: Ramlethal Valentine
    KOF XI: Terry/Oswald/Gato | KOF 14: Terry/NAK/KOD, Terry/Yamazaki/KOD

    PSN: CaptDeepThot


  • AwakeAwake Joined: Posts: 52
    There's a certain irony in not wanting your combos to do the same thing more than once when most of your attacks involve the same animation repeating itself 2-5 times in a row.

    I'm just saying that if you told someone that you wanted to always be able to get out of damage when your opponent scores a hit on you in any other community, you'd be laughed out of the room.

    Actually, each animation is different depending on the strength, top level players can see the difference.

    Yup, not only does the attack look different but the particles have a different shape as well.
  • ShiroPhantomeShiroPhantome Wut is lyf? Plz Elboar8 I dant understand Joined: Posts: 65
    The game has just came out and the metagame is still in a newborn state. People are going to find ways to break the game yet, and things will be discovered to counter those broken things. The metagame needs a chance to evolve. Chess was an entirely different game from when it was first played in the 1500's because Chess Theory has evolved significantly over the course of the past century. The real question is whether or not the game is still fun after people get better at it. Banning Akuma in ST was a good move in the long run because otherwise it would just become nothing but Akuma vs Akuma matches (although AE 2012 is scarily close to that). There's a good reason Capcom takes their sweet time fixing their games despite all the shit they get for it. When any potential problems are found in the game Capcom can determine if the game is inherently better or worse without them. As much as I love Skullgirls Mike Z needs to slow the fuck down with the patching cycle (as far as gameplay related patches go, patches that fix crashes and whatnot are fine). It's partially a symptom of looking at games like Starcraft and LOL which get rebalanced constantly and people complaining about fighting games not being like that. I think Killer Instinct is going to suffer from this constant patching because being a first-party game as well as the distribution model are gears more towards that. It's a shame really because Killer Instinct as it is now has the potential still to evolve into something truly beautiful outside of the developer's intentions.
  • ironboy89ironboy89 Beep Boop Beep Joined: Posts: 4,659
    As much as people should adapt to their problems, the issue is that all voices will be heard nobody what matter. Often times companies make nerf just to sasify the larger demography so that customers continue to play the game that they want. This is why unnecessary nerfs kind of happens, it's just there to make people happy regardless if it damages the game.

    The best thing KI community should do is continue to make informative videos, and educate people how to beat their problems.
  • CaptainGinyuCaptainGinyu Choppin Bricks Like Karate Joined: Posts: 1,978
    This is unpopular but I tend to believe that if one doesn't place at tournaments or isn't high ranked (Online play is the future imo) then one shouldn't be able to speak on various changes or nerfs. However, there are a variety of flaws with this thinking, I will admit that.
    “When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.”-Jimi Hendrix
    Take the Raw Vegan challenge! Lol nah fam, I don't even do this shit anymore.

    SFV: Zangief Sub: Juri
    GGXRD Revalator: Ramlethal Valentine
    KOF XI: Terry/Oswald/Gato | KOF 14: Terry/NAK/KOD, Terry/Yamazaki/KOD

    PSN: CaptDeepThot


  • ShiroPhantomeShiroPhantome Wut is lyf? Plz Elboar8 I dant understand Joined: Posts: 65
    This is unpopular but I tend to believe that if one doesn't place at tournaments or isn't high ranked (Online play is the future imo) then one shouldn't be able to speak on various changes or nerfs. However, there are a variety of flaws with this thinking, I will admit that.
    Nope, I agree with you. However, I'm not too sure saying high ranked online players have a saying in the game's balance because at this moment high ranked online players consists almost solely of Mexican kids playing Akuma. (Also before you call me out on it, yes I am aware it's entirely my own fault this is the case.)
    ironboy89 wrote: »
    As much as people should adapt to their problems, the issue is that all voices will be heard nobody what matter. Often times companies make nerf just to sasify the larger demography so that customers continue to play the game that they want. This is why unnecessary nerfs kind of happens, it's just there to make people happy regardless if it damages the game.

    The best thing KI community should do is continue to make informative videos, and educate people how to beat their problems.

    I think developers should make a "casual" fighting game pandering to every bitch and demand of scrubs out there so we can get it over with. Maybe KI will have to be this sacrificial game, I apologize in advance to anyone who has any plans of playing Killer Instinct competitively. No way Microsoft would just allow it to be a competitive niche game.
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Ibuki and Juri BUFFZ Joined: Posts: 52,389 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    edited December 2013

    I think developers should make a "casual" fighting game pandering to every bitch and demand of scrubs out there so we can get it over with. Maybe KI will have to be this sacrificial game, I apologize in advance to anyone who has any plans of playing Killer Instinct competitively. No way Microsoft would just allow it to be a competitive niche game.


    You don't have to apologize. I saw long in advance before a lot of other people stuck up in console wars that this game had the chance to be the game that other games are not. Spends that extra time making sure you get strong netcode out the gate, get frame data in the game, get hit boxes in the game, make button check free button configurations and a real tutorial mode that teaches people how to play the game and fighting games in general (not just outdated and impractical combos). The game that takes real time to look at things before fixing them.

    The development team has a solid amount of people who have placed very highly in tournaments in the past or generally have a strong intuition for the meta of fighting games. With things like the dojo/tutorial mode that they can constantly update, they can use the dojo to show people how to get around issues rather than patching them like other games. Then just attach it to things like achievements which all of the casual guys treat like gold and you got it made in the new age I say.

    Skullgirls already made the sacrifice. It was trying to be what this game was but failed due to lack of marketing and money which forced them to beckon on every request to damage control the game. This game won't need that and has shown people from the beginning that they plan to be in favor of being a competitive game for competitive gamers. If it was going to be a game to sell directly to casuals they would have just started throwing in ultimates/no mercies/stage fatalities and just sell you shitty gameplay and a lack of focus on tournament meaningful balance. They could just do that if they wanted to cash in for a couple months and dip out.

    Kunoichi is always in V Trigger

    BUFF CITY.  Population IBUKI


    SFV: Ibuki (Main Bae), Juri (Buffed Bae), Chun Li (Needs Buffs Bae)

    KOF XIV: Nakoruru/Iori/KDash

    SFIV: Nobody hate that shit (PROTIP: Everyone on SRK hates SFIV)

    3S: Ibuki (main), Alex

    If I ever pick up Xrd: Johnny

    PSN: PervyJin01

    CFN: PervyJin01 (PS4) Twitch: c88deviljin01

  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Joined: Posts: 0
    I remember back when I played 3s competitively and what people told me when I initially complained about chun..."deal with it"they would say and ever since then I never complained about it. I think that unless there is some game breaking glitch or some terrible oversight in balance...all players should always adapt.
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  • Crabcakes410Crabcakes410 Joined: Posts: 194
    I just played my first strong Sadira today(I play Jago). I am no where near good so I definitely don't want a nerf or anything but omg wow. She was in the Air the entire match and I couldn't think of anything to do besides jumping M Punch for small damage. Also I faced kinetic's Glacius today. That didn't go over well at all but I play so few Glacius Online he was doing things I have never saw before.

    Just a random comment about my killer day.
  • Luna_PostLuna_Post Joined: Posts: 92
    There's far too much input leniency in this games for Autos and Specials
    I get screwed by Negative Edge while using Sabrewulf all the time online, and screwed while playing online just because I press a button more than once and it gives me an auto I didn't ask for
  • purbeastpurbeast Joined: Posts: 4,447
    Luna_Post wrote: »
    There's far too much input leniency in this games for Autos and Specials
    I get screwed by Negative Edge while using Sabrewulf all the time online, and screwed while playing online just because I press a button more than once and it gives me an auto I didn't ask for

    I've definitely had some issues with Glacius as well when I mean to press B+FP or F+MP, from crouch, and I'll get a hail or shatter. But I just have to work on my execution.
  • Luna_PostLuna_Post Joined: Posts: 92
    Sabrewulf is th worst character in the game

    All he has is online lag based gimmicks.

    The only legit tactic he has is overpower but that's near useless since everyone jumps around a lot and everyone can keep you mid/full screen so they can just poke you out or get a ranom hit and combo, knock you back across the screen and do it all over again.

    Sabrewulf has no defensive options besides Shadow Eclipse, and you eat combo if it gets blocked and you don't have instinct or if it whiffs.

    Ragged edge is easily Shadow Countered as is any normal cancelled into hamstring or jumping slash, this can easily be done on reaction

    When Sabrewulf is in the corner, he has no answers vs Orchid, who can pressure him infinitely, because her pressure doesn't give you room to dash out, and all attempts at Shadow Eclipse can be easily baited since Orchid is +18973281947893892 frames during rekka

    Sabrewulf can't punish jump back Jago tactics unless he has meter

    His combos do terrible damage compared to the rest of the cast, unless he has instinct.
    Sabrewulf can generally get 40% off of a punish, while the rest of the cast gets around 55-60%, unless he's in instinct
  • purbeastpurbeast Joined: Posts: 4,447
    edited January 2014
    If he has only online lag based gimmicks, how come Justin Wong hasn't lost at a tourney with him yet? How come the finals at APEX was a Sabrewulf mirror match?

    Sounds like you need to just quit crying and learn how to play against him.
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Ibuki and Juri BUFFZ Joined: Posts: 52,389 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    You're not winning this one Luna. Too much evidence points to Sabrewulf being one of the best. Time to adapt.

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  • Luna_PostLuna_Post Joined: Posts: 92
    purbeast wrote: »
    If he has only online lag based gimmicks, how come Justin Wong hasn't lost at a tourney with him yet? How come the finals at APEX was a Sabrewulf mirror match?

    Sounds like you need to just quit crying and learn how to play against him.

    The people he plays don't know the matchup.

    This situation is a lot like people who'd complain about Blanka, Vanilla Sentinel, and BBCT Tager, except not even the pros are smart enough to learn the matchup this time.
  • purbeastpurbeast Joined: Posts: 4,447
    Luna_Post wrote: »
    purbeast wrote: »
    If he has only online lag based gimmicks, how come Justin Wong hasn't lost at a tourney with him yet? How come the finals at APEX was a Sabrewulf mirror match?

    Sounds like you need to just quit crying and learn how to play against him.

    The people he plays don't know the matchup.

    This situation is a lot like people who'd complain about Blanka, Vanilla Sentinel, and BBCT Tager, except not even the pros are smart enough to learn the matchup this time.

    Oh so now the excuse goes from losing because "he only has online tactics" to losing because "he doesn't know the matchup."

    Gotcha.
  • onyxonyx 3D Artist Joined: Posts: 830
    Luna_Post wrote: »
    purbeast wrote: »
    If he has only online lag based gimmicks, how come Justin Wong hasn't lost at a tourney with him yet? How come the finals at APEX was a Sabrewulf mirror match?

    Sounds like you need to just quit crying and learn how to play against him.

    The people he plays don't know the matchup.

    This situation is a lot like people who'd complain about Blanka, Vanilla Sentinel, and BBCT Tager, except not even the pros are smart enough to learn the matchup this time.
    Nah man.. If you wanna make a comparison i would say he's more like vanilla MVC3 Wolverine. That berserker slash was nothing nice, Sabre basically has that with variations its his best tool and it takes brainless execution to pull off. Pretty damn good tool against the whole cast to force a guess on wakeup, except in a mirror shadow eclipse is an option to the defender.
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  • FwufikinsFwufikins Joined: Posts: 1
    I think it can go both ways. If something is difficult to deal with and it doesn't get patched, you have to adapt. That being said, people also need to learn to adapt to the changes the patch makes, so if a character gets buffed or nerfed they know how to handle themselves. All too often I hear people saying "X got patched, game is ruined" and I think it's just as damaging as the people who cry for nerfs without even trying to figure things out.
  • albexmrutahalbexmrutah Joined: Posts: 38
    Ki as it currently stands is the most balenced game to date. No one can agree on tiers, which speaks volume to IG's commitment to balence
  • SoVi3tSoVi3t Behind The Iron Curtain Joined: Posts: 29,170
    this game has nerfed certain characters big time, and they're STILL op as fuck (Fulgore, anyone?)

    For the most part, there are only a few bad matchups (mostly with Aganos facing Sadira or Maya or Riptor), and they've done balance patches every month or so.

    This game is literally how all of last gen SHOULD have been handled.
    Official 2011 SRK Sexual Deviant Champion Of The Universe And Contest Winner Extraordinaire And Also Official 2012 SRK Sexual Deviant Since Nobody Stepped Forward And 2013 SRK Sexual Deviant Legend Because My Opposition Is Comprised Of Short Pimply GIF Posting Virgins Who Wouldn't Know What To Do With A Woman If She Sat On Their Collective Faces And Wiggled. Still Sexual Deviant Champion Of SRK circa 2015.
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  • albexmrutahalbexmrutah Joined: Posts: 38
    Fulgore isn't Op at all. Has he even won a major? Fulgore without Meter is the worst char in the game. Fulgore is honestly used more as a counterpick than a main at this point. Hes like Jago in a lot of ways, very few weaknesses, but yet people don't dominate with them anywhere near as much as their hype would warrant.
  • SoVi3tSoVi3t Behind The Iron Curtain Joined: Posts: 29,170
    Fulgore isn't Op at all. Has he even won a major? Fulgore without Meter is the worst char in the game. Fulgore is honestly used more as a counterpick than a main at this point. Hes like Jago in a lot of ways, very few weaknesses, but yet people don't dominate with them anywhere near as much as their hype would warrant.

    Last I played was before they nerfed his AA laser.
    Official 2011 SRK Sexual Deviant Champion Of The Universe And Contest Winner Extraordinaire And Also Official 2012 SRK Sexual Deviant Since Nobody Stepped Forward And 2013 SRK Sexual Deviant Legend Because My Opposition Is Comprised Of Short Pimply GIF Posting Virgins Who Wouldn't Know What To Do With A Woman If She Sat On Their Collective Faces And Wiggled. Still Sexual Deviant Champion Of SRK circa 2015.
    Destroyer Of Azure, Conqueror Of Trolls
    Defiler Of The Pure, Owner Of Souls

    SRK 2015 Thirtiest Member and Current Reigning Champion of the SRK Tournament of Thirst.

    All victories are hilariously argued against by various little boys who shall remain nameless
    Understand that my victories can only be disputed by successfully beating me for once.

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    Unofficial champion of SRK GD circa oh-fucking-nine
  • truendymiontruendymion Beer Me! Joined: Posts: 2,087
    Fulgore isn't Op at all. Has he even won a major? Fulgore without Meter is the worst char in the game. Fulgore is honestly used more as a counterpick than a main at this point. Hes like Jago in a lot of ways, very few weaknesses, but yet people don't dominate with them anywhere near as much as their hype would warrant.

    Welp Fulgore finally won a major. Now can we agree he's OP? Kappa
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  • TheBeingMachineTheBeingMachine Joined: Posts: 2
    There are some questionable character match ups within the roster.. I main thunder.. & just about everyone on the roster is a handful to deal with accept for Jago lol. I do my fair share of bodying people despite the many shinanigans & attributes of other characters but I will say.. the struggle is real... I personally feel that wulf spinal & fulgor are a tad questionable.. let's be honest.. their attributes are insane..
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