Vega (Claw)

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  • shortpitched713shortpitched713 Waiting for SSIVTHDR Joined: Posts: 177
    I'm not convinced even that is a great idea against top level Claws.

    What is even a top level Claw going to do against a cornered and charged Honda? :shake:
  • SystemSystem Joined: Posts: 508,676 admin
    which of claws jumping attacks is the best to use, and have good priority?

    and im trying to learn how to play claw "the right way" but not sure which style is better to use:

    Noguchi "wall dive crossup all day" or ARG "good use of normals and the corner trap from hell"?

    I personally like using wall dives becaues they are ridiculously good unlike in CvS2. But how often should i be using them?
  • GanelonGanelon Joined: Posts: 1,101
    j.HP & j.HK: air-to-ground
    j.MP: air-to-air
    ju.HP: anti-air
    ju.LK: tick

    As for styles, take your pick. As you've seen, both styles work well at the top level. But note that there are some characters against whom Noguchi refrains from wall diving and some against whom ARG will constantly wall dive when a tournament is on the line (all with good cause). If you want to play a complete claw, you'll need to learn both styles, even if you plan on wall diving most of the time.

    You'll also need to take into account how willing you are to accept player reprehension. Even though everyone knows about Playing to Win, there are still players who will begrudge you for wall diving to a win. When ARG doesn't wall dive after a knockdown against non-Blankas, it's pretty apparent that he's trading his own advantage for the sake of honor. It's up to you whether you want to play nice or play to win.
  • Duck StrongDuck Strong Yin to all Yang Joined: Posts: 7,783 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    What is even a top level Claw going to do against a cornered and charged Honda? :shake:

    The words top-level and Claw just don't sound right together.
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  • ChrisisChrisis Follows her path Joined: Posts: 7,684
    Is ARG non existent?
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  • MokuraMokura Joined: Posts: 148
    Unless you're Honda, that's not a good idea. You're essentially putting a sign out for the opponent, saying "pressure me".

    Have you ever seen a match where Claw's opponent doesn't get "pressured"? The way people play, it's gonna happen regardless. By cornering yourself you've at least got a better chance of escaping that cross-up dive bs.
  • jmsjms Joined: Posts: 339
    Have you ever seen a match where Claw's opponent doesn't get "pressured"? The way people play, it's gonna happen regardless. By cornering yourself you've at least got a better chance of escaping that cross-up dive bs.

    Do not give away that which has not already been taken from you. Your best defense is offense. Try attacking Claw.
  • TizocTizoc Joined: Posts: 11,406
    Damn last night I had a 2df session where I used Claw and I'm really getting the hang of him1 I play using keyboard tho, but am slowly upping my game. I managed to do his super 4-6 times in that session! Why this move is easier than Guile's is beyond me.
    I'll go check the wiki soon for some anti-Ryu/Shoto stuff.
    Just curious what are Claw's cancelable normals?
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  • TizocTizoc Joined: Posts: 11,406
    Why isn't the Balrog player here use the Wall Jump?
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=p2wgnwfRU40
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  • Duck StrongDuck Strong Yin to all Yang Joined: Posts: 7,783 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Because these guys aren't lazy tossers like most american players.
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  • UltraDavidUltraDavid commenta..ttorney?? Joined: Posts: 6,053
    Nah, ARG is famous for playing straight up hyou-Bal in ST, wall dives constantly. My guess for why he's not doing it in this match is that there's something different about Super Claw's wall dive or the way Super Zangief handles wall dives. Even in ST Claw can't really play wall dive games against Gief in the way he plays them against lots of other characters, wall dive usage is confined more to the just-barely-hitting kind. Maybe Super Claw's wall dive hitbox isn't as effective for that.

    Edit: Yeah, you can see in the 2nd round that Claw's wall dive has some weird turn-the-guy-around-and-suck-him-in quality to it. Seems pretty dangerous, especially cause he gets punished for it at the end.
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  • BrentoBoxBrentoBox Drip Drip Drip Joined: Posts: 2,926
    Nah, ARG is famous for playing straight up hyou-Bal in ST, wall dives constantly. My guess for why he's not doing it in this match is that there's something different about Super Claw's wall dive or the way Super Zangief handles wall dives. Even in ST Claw can't really play wall dive games against Gief in the way he plays them against lots of other characters, wall dive usage is confined more to the just-barely-hitting kind. Maybe Super Claw's wall dive hitbox isn't as effective for that.

    Edit: Yeah, you can see in the 2nd round that Claw's wall dive has some weird turn-the-guy-around-and-suck-him-in quality to it. Seems pretty dangerous, especially cause he gets punished for it at the end.

    I play a lot of Zangief players here in Seattle. A lot of guys here are dedicated to being good with him, and they do pretty well.

    I noticed that if I wall dive, and hug the wall for just a second then go forward, the claw hits just on Zangiefs head, which is where he is vulnerable.

    It doesn't always hit perfectly, and mostly trades (which is fine, because I think he takes more damage) but you will just plain beat him out sometimes.
    "Upback is the new downback." - Airthrow

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  • BrentoBoxBrentoBox Drip Drip Drip Joined: Posts: 2,926
    Why isn't the Balrog player here use the Wall Jump?
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=p2wgnwfRU40
    Because these guys aren't lazy tossers like most american players.

    To beat Zangief, you hardly have to move at all. Wall dives will get you killed.

    Zangief cannot do a thing to get in on Claw. All he can do is play footsies and spam Lariets to hope to get a knockdown. Once he gets that knockdown, you are in serious trouble. If you spam walls dives, will get beaten out most of the time by wake-up reversal lariats.

    The Claw vs Geif match is a tense but simple. Slide when he lariats, standing roundhouse whenever he jumps (you will always connect, and usually beat him clean) and don't spam crouching strong because lariat will knock you down. Be careful with your pokes and use Fierce because it has a lot of range.

    The players in Seattel still beat me a lot of the time though. :wgrin:
    "Upback is the new downback." - Airthrow

    :dp: We da best.
  • TizocTizoc Joined: Posts: 11,406
    thx for the feedback guys, and for the 101 of dealing with Gief :tup:
    "You have to be a badass if you ride a giant seahorse." -Grant Morrison on why Aquaman is badass
    "Game Over, Snively. ...Thanks for playing." -Dr. Eggman, Sonic Universe #40
    "I'm stinking of animal blood...As of now I'm a vegetarian. And this is Bat-cow." -Damian Wayne
  • Sleepy ZeroSleepy Zero The Other Lee Player Joined: Posts: 545
    Does anyone have any tips on what to do against Boxer? I seem to have a really hard time against him.
    Upstate OG
  • KhiempossibleKhiempossible NAGEHAME User Joined: Posts: 3,254
    low strong
    "Win when you can; lose when you have to; but always play cheap" - Familyman
  • EvilSamuraiEvilSamurai Joined: Posts: 2,668
    low strong

    Vega's low strong loses to Balrog's low strong. Balrog is one of Vega's worst matchups.
  • KhiempossibleKhiempossible NAGEHAME User Joined: Posts: 3,254
    yeah but it beats all his rush punches.
    "Win when you can; lose when you have to; but always play cheap" - Familyman
  • VegaVega Joined: Posts: 917
    I'm not saying my strategy is the one correct way of doing things but what works good for me is to stay back far and without getting into an easily identifiable rhythm I like to throw out lots of standing strongs, standing fierces, and crouching roundhouses.

    I am staying far away so that he has to either use rush punches to get in or he will try walking in. Of course you can't block at the same time as rush punching or walking forward, and like I said I try to be a little random on the timing of these. At the same time in the back of my mind I'm concerned about low blocking in case a low rush punch slips through the timing of my pokes.

    This strategy seems to be a good starting point and the focal point of my attack that eats up a good portion of his health. That's probably like 1/3 or 1/2 of my strategy for that matchup. A very big chunk.
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  • GanelonGanelon Joined: Posts: 1,101
    I do the same zoning that immortal described, except with a lot more of everybody's favorite wall dives. I always want to keep my distance from boxer and above all, stay away from the corners. I do wall dives when boxer is waking up, to run out time, and at random other intervals (free c.HP when boxer reversals into corners).

    Boxer's super is a non-issue in this match as long as you exercise caution when he has it. You just have to be very careful of the throw loop, and staying away is the best way to avoid the situation.
  • ApocApoc SF Bendu Knight Joined: Posts: 704 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Rep Vega to the fullest at Evo bros!!!;)
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  • zasszass Da 'Mizer Joined: Posts: 1,122
    Ganelon and I played a good set of games on GGPO of Boxer vs Claw. Here's my take (Ganelon, please feel free to chime in here).

    Boxer wants to stay on the ground, always charged in down back mode. You must be ready for fierce headbutt any wall dive, or do a kick rush at him. This is your #1 priority, because if you let him knock you down you can expect to lose 50% life on ambigious wall dives.

    So you're sitting in crouch, now what? Here low mk is your friend. It hits many of Claw's moves. A smart claw will try to poke out of range with standing mp, and here there's a 50/50 game of mostly blocking and occasionally rushing. You lost most of the guessing games numerically, but this is countered by the fact that if you can hit with a rush, you can do a safe jump with jumping mk, leading to 50% or so damage from tick setups.

    I think the fight is about 50-50, perhaps with Boxer advantage if you really have your safe jump timing down.
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  • OuroborusOuroborus plays 3s just to troll Joined: Posts: 7,211 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    apoc is alive!:party:
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  • jpj1983jpj1983 Joined: Posts: 156
    i'd echo Vega's sentiments on that match-up

    just wanted to make a post for three reasons:

    1) Aziz, that short-cut was news to me. thanks for the golden info :tup:

    2) double flip-kicks...or juggling flip-kicks. what is the best way to perform them?

    am i right in thinking you wanna have your charge ready, and when you want to unleash, hit forwards, then press kick as you return the joystick to the back position? ie delaying the kick button by a plsit second so you're charging the next flip kick before the first one has connected

    this move is giving me trouble, but i had heard it was pretty tough to execute, and it's only recently that i've started approaching this game, and competitive play in general, seriously... :sweat:

    3) the moral dilemna. i must've won 20+ games in a row a few days back against a friend of mine on ggpo. but i did feel bad about the wall dive abuse. now that i'm starting to really get into the intracacies of playing ST, and playing it online, what i'm discovering more and more is that the game is full of tricks, or "traps", if you will. certain characters against certain other characters may have a set of moves that when performed in rotation make it very difficult for the opponent. of course there is usually a way to escape, but the player who doesn't know that escape route is gonna lose to it time and time again. so do you see claw's wall dive game as another one of these traps that is just inherently part of the game? i see a lot of people really anti the idea of counter picking, and i think this taps into that to a degree.
  • JubeiNinja69JubeiNinja69 Playing To Win Joined: Posts: 1,158
    a good player can stop vega's spamming wall dives easily if they know its coming. they can just jump back and attack. the key is to mix it up and that means spamming the dives from different directions and mixing up the hit front and back.

    bad matchup i have is fei since his flame kick pretty much owns my vega's tricks. any tips to evening out this match?
    Strategy Zone lurker
  • KhiempossibleKhiempossible NAGEHAME User Joined: Posts: 3,254
    a good player can stop vega's spamming wall dives easily if they know its coming. they can just jump back and attack. the key is to mix it up and that means spamming the dives from different directions and mixing up the hit front and back.

    bad matchup i have is fei since his flame kick pretty much owns my vega's tricks. any tips to evening out this match?

    stop wall diving.
    "Win when you can; lose when you have to; but always play cheap" - Familyman
  • GanelonGanelon Joined: Posts: 1,101
    A good player can't stop a good claw's wall dives unless he chose certain counter-wall dive characters. If the Fei player is doing the shien kyaku on wakeup, you can hit him out of it every single time with a wall dive if you get the timing/positioning down and mix it up correctly.

    You may be able to get by this matchup with an all-wall dive strategy here but the timing will actually be harder than just fighting him on the ground most of the time. From the sounds of it, you're going right at him with a dive, which should get you knocked down almost every single time.

    Really, if you pretty much just poke him when he advances and anti-airs when he jumps (the rekku kyaku shouldn't be an issue unless you're playing online in a less-than-excellent connection), there's little he can do (unless he gets you in the corner) due to the fact that the shien kyaku can't be perfomed while walking forward.
  • MalfredsMalfreds Secret... Joined: Posts: 141
    Fei's low fierce punch stops Vega's poke.
    Slides and unexpected jumps against him are the best tools. And never attack him unless he do his shoryuken move.
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  • zaspacerzaspacer Joined: Posts: 553
    streetfighterdojo.com: Super Turbo Vega (Claw)

    I finally got the ST Vega (Claw) section up at streetfighterdojo.com.

    Here is the link:
    http://streetfighterdojo.com/superturbo/claw/clawmatches.html

    Match footage of top players + combos/tricks

    Enjoy!
    streetfighterdojo.com - video library of top players
  • TheMuffinManTheMuffinMan 「満」 「寸」 「越」 Joined: Posts: 506 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    So people keep talking about this secret tech from Japan that makes Claw undisputed #1....

    Just kidding. However, I'm sure MAO taught everyone quite a lot at ToL this year, so I'm curious what Spanish muff... i mean wall-divers picked up from him. I hope someone harassed him for tips! :D
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  • FuddFudd High Level Parking Joined: Posts: 1,215
    Don't worry, Riz did.
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  • cheezface immortalcheezface immortal unbeatlievable Joined: Posts: 1,082
    yes, early as hell Monday morning there were several of us learning some good tips from him. the only different is while Riz and everyone else was learning how to fight against this stuff i was the only one on the opposite side learning how i'm going to start incorporating this stuff into my arsenal. MAO even had us do a role reversal where he had me sit down to play Vega and he took turns himself along with Riz, Ultra Combo, and Mike Idge learning how S. Ken/S. Sagat/Ryu respectively can hope to defend against some tactics and at the same time i was getting in some reps using a tactic of his. good times!

    this should be helpful to America's ST scene. Vega players will spread his tactics and become stronger and in the meantime others will get used to seeing some of these techniques (still not on MAO's level probably but getting closer) and thus will grow and learn to defend this stuff. it will be a win/win for everyone.

    i don't know about the others in the room but i'm the type that thinks keeping secrets from the community is bad and holds everything back. it stunts growth. i want all the info out there wide open for everyone to access but i don't force it. ask Fudd, Riz, Mike Idge, Fatboy, El Trouble, maybe others i'm forgetting and hopefully they can explain this stuff. if they don't come to me and i'll gladly spill all the info to Vega players and shoto players alike. that is what we covered while i was there. if they went on to cover any different ways other characters handle the wall dive insanity then i was not around for that part, i had to get going for my flight.
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  • DNGR S PAPERCUTDNGR S PAPERCUT Joined: Posts: 1,608
    Hopefully you took good notes immortal, I'm going to start picking up claw so us west coasters don't get blown up next year when Mao comes back again. I'm going to need to ask you for tips and advice. We all need to make sure that cold style claw doesn't strike twice on American soil.
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  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,714
    yes, early as hell Monday morning there were several of us learning some good tips from him. the only different is while Riz and everyone else was learning how to fight against this stuff i was the only one on the opposite side learning how i'm going to start incorporating this stuff into my arsenal. MAO even had us do a role reversal where he had me sit down to play Vega and he took turns himself along with Riz, Ultra Combo, and Mike Idge learning how S. Ken/S. Sagat/Ryu respectively can hope to defend against some tactics and at the same time i was getting in some reps using a tactic of his. good times!

    this should be helpful to America's ST scene. Vega players will spread his tactics and become stronger and in the meantime others will get used to seeing some of these techniques (still not on MAO's level probably but getting closer) and thus will grow and learn to defend this stuff. it will be a win/win for everyone.

    i don't know about the others in the room but i'm the type that thinks keeping secrets from the community is bad and holds everything back. it stunts growth. i want all the info out there wide open for everyone to access but i don't force it. ask Fudd, Riz, Mike Idge, Fatboy, El Trouble, maybe others i'm forgetting and hopefully they can explain this stuff. if they don't come to me and i'll gladly spill all the info to Vega players and shoto players alike. that is what we covered while i was there. if they went on to cover any different ways other characters handle the wall dive insanity then i was not around for that part, i had to get going for my flight.

    I understood the gist of what Mao was trying to teach us, even though it was pretty difficult to get past the language barrier.

    I'll spare the precise details now, since it's difficult to explain without some sort of diagram or drawing. Basically, good Claw players will attack with a wall-dive at 3 sectors.

    1) The space in front of the opponent.
    2) The space slightly behind their opponent's head, but above them.
    3) The space beyond the opponent's shoulders, on the cross-up side

    It's insanely difficult to react to which option the Claw player will do, so you'll have to learn which sector they prefer to attack based on player preference. I forget the exact percentages, but Mao said he changes his attack sector based on what his opponent does, but he usually starts the round off 70% of the time by attacking the front side. Afterwards, he'll change it.

    Depending on which sector he'll attack, you input the following reversal commands for a dragon-punch (this example pertains to shotos). Each number corresponds with the above-mentioned attack sector. This example assumes that P1 is a shoto, P2 is claw. When Claw wall-dives to the opposite wall, then he will be on P1 side, and shoto will be on P2 side.

    1) You do a standard reversal dragon punch from P2 position.
    2) This is the difficult one. You input a half circle starting from the stick position #4 (left), going down and around towards stick position #6 (right), and you negative edge all 3 punches. This inputs a reversal DP, while also incorporating a block.

    The reason it works is that Mao is able to quickly change Claw's position above the center-axis of the shoto, so that he will change sides during the reversal input. Basically, it means that he's able to change position at the same time that you input a reversal DP, so that the game will eat your inputs, and no reversal will come out. This is the reason why many shoto players, myself, Damdai, everybody who tried, could not EVER get a reversal DP if he attacks in attack sector #2. You perform the half circle in order to achieve the 'towards, down, down-towards' input needed for a dragon punch, but doing it so that you change sides. It's similar to the cross-cut auto-correct DP that Choi uses in a variety of games, including SF4.

    3) You do a DP from P1 position.

    That's about as good as I can explain it, without having the necessity of diagrams and a powerpoint presentation to explain it better. Hopefully some of the others that were in the room can try to go into the details.
  • cheezface immortalcheezface immortal unbeatlievable Joined: Posts: 1,082
    yeah that's a good way to explain it. this was in reference to Vega taking the wall behind the shoto and then attacking in one of three possible sections. in the heat of battle trying to discern between them... good luck. and even if you guess correctly #2 is coming it's very hard to slam that dp in there with the half circle motion. like El Trouble said it can sometimes result in blocking so that's not so bad right? wrong. MAO would always keep pressure on, often throwing immediately. he would continue to have the advantage after a blocked wall dive many times. anyway a diagram is probably needed.

    the other big thing was anti crossup stuff. i still haven't quite gotten the hang of this yet but essentially unless a crossup is deep enough (taking advice from Riz on this one) then MAO would always just use reversal crouching jab as a way to move Vega's hit box so far forward and out of the way that your crossup whiffs and then guess what, he throws and begins crazy pressure again. not sure if i'm not getting the reversal timing right or not choosing the right crossups to do it, but a few attempts against Damdai on HDR classic got me crossed up every time. :rofl: i guess this is to be expected at first.
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  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,714
    the other big thing was anti crossup stuff. i still haven't quite gotten the hang of this yet but essentially unless a crossup is deep enough (taking advice from Riz on this one) then MAO would always just use reversal crouching jab as a way to move Vega's hit box so far forward and out of the way that your crossup whiffs and then guess what, he throws and begins crazy pressure again. not sure if i'm not getting the reversal timing right or not choosing the right crossups to do it, but a few attempts against Damdai on HDR classic got me crossed up every time. :rofl: i guess this is to be expected at first.

    I've experienced this first-hand. I don't know what it is, but Mao knows exactly how to whiff a cr.jab to slide his hurt box under and away from any of my cross-up attempts, even my spin kick cross-up attempts. It's similar to how Guile is able to cr.strong Ryu's early jump attacks, to slip underneath, and throw him.

    Mao especially loves doing crazy shit like random whiffed jumps into throws, and it works surprisingly well.
  • cheezface immortalcheezface immortal unbeatlievable Joined: Posts: 1,082
    i tried to put together some pics that show the 1/2/3 sections we are talking about. i tried my best but i'm not an artist by any means and had a lot going on quickly to try to get the pics, i'm not as coordinated as Desk at doing so much with so little number of hands. hahaha.

    this is the default position i'm using for these photos. i have the opponent standing but keep in mind you will usually set this up after a knockdown of some sort ...
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/82512215@N08/7553709482/in/photostream

    MAO would almost exclusively take the wall behind the opponent and this was the goal in teaching us the sectors, we would always use the wall behind ...
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/82512215@N08/7553710872/in/photostream

    most importantly here are the 3 areas. #1 is always staying on the same side of the opponent after hitting the wall, #2 is barely crossing up just slightly, and #3 is a more pronounced crossup that sails you past the opponent a bit more. since we are taking the left wall the order is 1/2/3 but if the characters were switched and we take the right wall then the order becomes 3/2/1 ...
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/82512215@N08/7553711548/in/photostream

    this hit in #1 because Vega stays on the same side after hitting the wall. to reverse this you would want to simply dp to the left (L, D, D/L motion) ...
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/82512215@N08/7553712630/in/photostream

    this hit in #2 and it's the trickiest not only for Vega to space it but also for the opponent to recognize and counter. as previously stated you have to kind of cross cut it. you do a half circle starting with the direction of the wall Vega took (L, D/L, D, D/R, R motion), and apparently you have to execute this in about 8 frames and at just the right time ...
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/82512215@N08/7553713374/in/photostream

    this hit in #3 and since Vega crossed over before the opponent needed to input then you would just dp to the right (R, D, D/R motion) ...
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/82512215@N08/7553714046/in/photostream
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    Steven Seagal as The Cockpuncher - "I don't think you have the balls."
    Chaos Crypt - "I'd say we sound like the primeval howl from the cursed newborn."
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    Hey, Immortal, I'm getting "currently unavailable" when following the links.
  • cheezface immortalcheezface immortal unbeatlievable Joined: Posts: 1,082
    i changed them to flickr. maybe that will work. refresh and try the links now.
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  • mrdhalsimmrdhalsim Joined: Posts: 378
    Thanks for the write-up Immortal. I'd like someone to confirm this in TRUST using scripts and we can use frame advance to walk through it. I.e. script each character (claw and ken) for each of these scenarios. It's one thing to block, but you're talking about DP'ing as not just blocking but a counter to the wall dive. At least one thing does not seem quite right to me in your explanation for the final screenshot (wall dive hitting in sector 3) before it's confirmed with scripts: If the opponent inputs a dp facing to the right (or, where claw jumped from to get to claw's far wall), it seems claw is on the back side of opponent during much of the inputs in order to get the dp and switches sides at least once (twice if you need to start the dp early while claw is still going up to the far wall, and again when he goes back over opponent's head to reach sector 3). Are you saying a dp will still come out to counter sector 3 attacks?

    I was messing around with scripting last week and noticed that the if the opponent successfully blocks a wall dive done from the far wall (claw's far wall, i.e. your scenarios for the 3 sectors), the opponent must have already started blocking while claw was still very high and has only started to spread his arms at the latest. (like first frame where his arms are kinda like a "v" pointing down and not horiztonal yet). Well, "latest" depending on how deep/low it goes, however it seems from your examples, claw probably wants the hit to connect relatively high, not so deep/low, right? I want to account for all of the factors that affect this because the wall dive is so fast and the ambiguity so high of how to simply block it successfully, let alone this anomalous, special-case dp method as an actual counter to it.

    So to get the counters you describe (DPs), the opponent has to _guess_ which of the three scenarios it will be, assuming Vega goes to the far wall at all (i.e. if he does not, the possibilities of ambiguity shoot up to four or five or 6 (each sector) if Vega goes off near wall instead, and if that's not enough mix-up, there's the wall spike for seven). I mean you're not reacting to wall dive's with dp's because by the time you can see and process it (def not determine which of 3 sectors), it's already too late to start inputting a dp, from either side.

    And to simply _block_ (not counter) the wall dive for these 3 sectors, it's a 50-50 left or right guess. Right? Mostly you should block it holding right (ie from where claw took off from to get to far wall) in sector 1, but he eventually goes for sectors 2 and 3 so sometimes you have to block left (far wall).

    XSPR
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