Vega (Claw)

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Comments

  • cheezface immortalcheezface immortal unbeatlievable Joined: Posts: 1,082
    good question about how high or low the wall dive should hit. he didn't go into that part of it i don't think. from his matches he had them hitting all over the place.

    one thing worth mentioning about this setup with the pictures... when we all did this together for group learning our badic setup was a roundhouse scarlet terror (flipkick for two hits) then delay a split second after landing, then wall dive.

    also for more pratice pn the crazy motion for dp'ing #2 the fastest way to try is to just have Vega jump U/F over your head and you can try to do the half circle thing to dp him.
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  • -TheBastard--TheBastard- FAB u LOSE! Joined: Posts: 1,276

    Mao especially loves doing crazy shit like random whiffed jumps into throws, and it works surprisingly well.

    Vega has frame advantage if u do the correct set up, so the opponent cant grab u facing the wrong side
    <blitzfu> cool, and bastard is a loser, screen shot that
    <Pasky> he's always trolling, he has a macro button that troll
    <Kyouya>LoL Bastard, best post evah! But you forgot the tiger uppercut!!
    Imagine a snail being able to play fgs, and being a noob in it, it would sure be a salty snail, oh the tragedy of a snail!
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,722
    Vega has frame advantage if u do the correct set up, so the opponent cant grab u facing the wrong side

    He has frame advantage on an empty jump? How does that work? Are you telling me that Vegas can do a random cross-up jump, and throw, before the opponent even has time to change sides? Good God, patch this guy now, lol.
  • -TheBastard--TheBastard- FAB u LOSE! Joined: Posts: 1,276
    he whiffed the jumping kicks on purpose, giving him 3 possible situations, rog's whiffed reversal, rog's whiffed grab attempt or rog's block animation to a whiffed attack. Vega's jumps in r really fast n seing how MAO plays he uses calculated strategies unlike getting lucky random grabs.

    also he gets rid of the ungrabbable period after wake up. so whiffing those aerials is pure genius.
    <blitzfu> cool, and bastard is a loser, screen shot that
    <Pasky> he's always trolling, he has a macro button that troll
    <Kyouya>LoL Bastard, best post evah! But you forgot the tiger uppercut!!
    Imagine a snail being able to play fgs, and being a noob in it, it would sure be a salty snail, oh the tragedy of a snail!
  • nomrahnomrah Joined: Posts: 1,043
    Wow good stuff Brent, never knew that the wall dive tactic was so deep, seemed like just shenanigans to the untrained eye.
  • bodlerbodler The Unmixupable Joined: Posts: 1,074
    Is it true that Claw can time his wall dive so that it hits low? or is it character specific?
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde Resident tech talk double poster Joined: Posts: 4,838
    You mean, to turn his wall dive into a sweep attack so you have to block low? No, that isn't possible. He's too tall, so when he jumps his center will land before you can attack that low. While you can do a very low attack, it's about knee height but still capable of being blocked high. Any lower, and he doesn't get to finish his attack animation before he lands and recovers. See below:
    33nw7k8.png

    That is the absolute lowest you can get the wall dive to hit. Even against a tall character like Hawk:

    221e81.png

    Papercuts is just spreading MAO myths, lol. Building up the legend.
    Disclaimer: I work for Paradise Arcade Shop. My posts are probably biased. Take that into consideration. Bye!
  • bodlerbodler The Unmixupable Joined: Posts: 1,074
    Yeah I was reading up stuff on ggpo related to MAO about that. Very nice explanation , thanks alot.
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde Resident tech talk double poster Joined: Posts: 4,838
    Yeah I saw similar conversations about MAO, but know most of them aren't true, with the exception that he is a very skilled player with great timing.
    Disclaimer: I work for Paradise Arcade Shop. My posts are probably biased. Take that into consideration. Bye!
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,722
    Yeah I saw similar conversations about MAO, but know most of them aren't true, with the exception that he is a very skilled player with great timing.

    Out of curiosity, which conversations are you guys having about MAO, and which portions are true or untrue?
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde Resident tech talk double poster Joined: Posts: 4,838
    MAO timing a wall dive to hit your feet and getting the knock down since you blocked high, not low. This is what bodler and my posts are referring to.

    There are others, like MAO having perfect wall dive timing that you can't even reversal out of, even though Kusumondo sumo splashed out of a loop during ToL.

    MAO is an excellent player, but some of the stuff I've seen them say about him on GGPO is getting to the point of myth, lol. It's like everyone forgot when Futachan beat 3 top notch Claw players in a row, two of them MAO and ARG.
    Disclaimer: I work for Paradise Arcade Shop. My posts are probably biased. Take that into consideration. Bye!
  • djfrijolesdjfrijoles First ST player to ever moon a live stream baby ! Joined: Posts: 2,054
    throw back to tomo never blocking fb's
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    <garyangel> (((((((((((((((
    <djfrijoles> kyouya is with his gf gary
    <Random.Jab.DP.Spamer> his gf is gary ?
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,722
    MAO timing a wall dive to hit your feet and getting the knock down since you blocked high, not low. This is what bodler and my posts are referring to.

    There are others, like MAO having perfect wall dive timing that you can't even reversal out of, even though Kusumondo sumo splashed out of a loop during ToL.

    MAO is an excellent player, but some of the stuff I've seen them say about him on GGPO is getting to the point of myth, lol. It's like everyone forgot when Futachan beat 3 top notch Claw players in a row, two of them MAO and ARG.

    I'm not really sure why there's any myth here, since a lot of us were at Evo actually played and talked to the guy.

    The wall dive never hits low, MAO is just extremely good at making the wall dives as ambiguous as can possibly be.

    No Claw can ever perform a "perfect" wall dive 10/10 times, but he can get close. Kusumondo preferred to simply buttslam his way out of that situation, which forces Mao to slide as a punish, which disrupts the timing of his perfect wall dive. So scenario A) he hits claw with the buttslam and gets a mix-up opportunity, b) he gets hit by claw and has to guess at another wall dive attempt (same as if he had guessed wrong and gotten hit anyways), or c) he avoids the claw altogether, MAO has to slide at him to punish, which disrupts the timing for his wall dive attempts. Basically, Kusu chose to sacrifice health in order to avoid getting destroyed altogether, which allows him an opportunity to stay in the fight.

    And you can reversal out of MAO's wall dives, but it's extremely difficult to do. Based on which position he'll decide to attack (you have to guess, he doesn't project where he's going to hit), you have 3 options to do reversals. Standard directional DP, DP in the other direction timed late, or a cross-cut DP that is preferably neg-edged and ends with a high block on the cross-up side.
  • KuroppiKuroppi くろっぴ Joined: Posts: 891
    I'm not really sure why there's any myth here, since a lot of us were at Evo actually played and talked to the guy.

    The wall dive never hits low, MAO is just extremely good at making the wall dives as ambiguous as can possibly be.

    No Claw can ever perform a "perfect" wall dive 10/10 times, but he can get close. Kusumondo preferred to simply buttslam his way out of that situation, which forces Mao to slide as a punish, which disrupts the timing of his perfect wall dive. So scenario A) he hits claw with the buttslam and gets a mix-up opportunity, b) he gets hit by claw and has to guess at another wall dive attempt (same as if he had guessed wrong and gotten hit anyways), or c) he avoids the claw altogether, MAO has to slide at him to punish, which disrupts the timing for his wall dive attempts. Basically, Kusu chose to sacrifice health in order to avoid getting destroyed altogether, which allows him an opportunity to stay in the fight..

    Yeah, as Honda, you sacrifice health to get out from the center of the screen towards the corner. And at least Honda has that option (when he has health to sacrifice), where as some characters are just kind of screwed at that point. XSPR made a great point once. A huge reason that Claw is such a strong character is that, while most characters are in a position of strength when they have their opponent cornered, Claw is the opposite and 80% of the screen, he has the opponent where he wants them. And depending on the character, it's not that great to be cornered by Claw either.

    But even Kusumondo had trouble getting out of the wall-dive loop though. During the very final round at ToL, he got nailed three times in a row and was one more wall dive hit away from being dizzy. He made a tiny bit of a comeback but by then it was already too little too late.

    And the final round of the damdai-MAO match. That was so painful to watch. =/
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  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,722
    Yeah, as Honda, you sacrifice health to get out from the center of the screen towards the corner. And at least Honda has that option (when he has health to sacrifice), where as some characters are just kind of screwed at that point. XSPR made a great point once. A huge reason that Claw is such a strong character is that, while most characters are in a position of strength when they have their opponent cornered, Claw is the opposite and 80% of the screen, he has the opponent where he wants them. And depending on the character, it's not that great to be cornered by Claw either.

    But even Kusumondo had trouble getting out of the wall-dive loop though. During the very final round at ToL, he got nailed three times in a row and was one more wall dive hit away from being dizzy. He made a tiny bit of a comeback but by then it was already too little too late.

    And the final round of the damdai-MAO match. That was so painful to watch. =/

    All good points. Honda v. Vega is very much about using health as a resource, both in terms of risks that you're allowed to take, as well as protecting it in order to maintain the life lead and run the clock out. Honda's very capable of fighting Vega as long as he's standing on his feet. But much like everyone else, once the wall dive vortex starts, odds are he'll most likely be eating damage.

    Claw's powerful for a variety of reasons. The wall dive is arguably his deadliest method of attack, but he doesn't even need to use it in order to be competitive. He has excellent speed, range, and some of the best normals the game has to offer.

    As for that final Damdai v. MAO match, I couldn't tell if Damdai just made incorrect block guesses, or if he was trying to do reversal out of the wall dive. To me, it looked like he was trying to reversal DP, but since Mao kept accurately changing sides on him during DP inputs, they weren't coming out, and so he ate the knockdown. I know Damdai has a pretty high success rate with reversal DPs and is very confident and capable in this matchup. So I guess it proves that Mao's wall dive game really is on another level.
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde Resident tech talk double poster Joined: Posts: 4,838
    *snip*

    People like to make life bigger than it is, that's why there are all these MAO myths going on. It's cool though, it gets people hyped for the game, but in this instance with the wall dive hitting low, we have bad information on how the game works.

    Both Kusumondo and MAO played damn near perfect matches. I couldn't believe it when I was seeing MAO wake up throw Kusumondo's tick-oichio attempts multiple times.That blew my mind. Kusumondo also knew when to sacrifice health and when not to, as you pointed out, and on top of that, Honda has a lot more health and less dizzy potential than Claw does. Seeing how skillful Kusumondo was, I wanted him to take it especially since it went 2/5 down to the last hit when both players were 1/1. He was climbing a big hill to get to the top, and I had to root for the guy after seeing such hard work pay off. MAO was an excellent player, too, and I didn't want to see him lose either, but I thought if it came down to it, the Honda player would probably take it a lot harder after such hard work and I felt he deserved to be there. I also saw MAO play Claw how Claw should be played, using a tight poking game and normals to chip away at his opponent's health, and looping when an opening came into play.
    Disclaimer: I work for Paradise Arcade Shop. My posts are probably biased. Take that into consideration. Bye!
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde Resident tech talk double poster Joined: Posts: 4,838
    As for that final Damdai v. MAO match, I couldn't tell if Damdai just made incorrect block guesses, or if he was trying to do reversal out of the wall dive. To me, it looked like he was trying to reversal DP, but since Mao kept accurately changing sides on him during DP inputs, they weren't coming out, and so he ate the knockdown. I know Damdai has a pretty high success rate with reversal DPs and is very confident and capable in this matchup. So I guess it proves that Mao's wall dive game really is on another level.

    I personally feel like Damdai lost the mindset to win after everyone on stream was being so derisive towards him during the Afro Legends match. I doubt he was at the top of his game after losing a good chunk of change and credibility in the eyes of many.
    Disclaimer: I work for Paradise Arcade Shop. My posts are probably biased. Take that into consideration. Bye!
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,722
    People like to make life bigger than it is, that's why there are all these MAO myths going on. It's cool though, it gets people hyped for the game, but in this instance with the wall dive hitting low, we have bad information on how the game works.

    Both Kusumondo and MAO played damn near perfect matches. I couldn't believe it when I was seeing MAO wake up throw Kusumondo's tick-oichio attempts multiple times.That blew my mind. Kusumondo also knew when to sacrifice health and when not to, as you pointed out, and on top of that, Honda has a lot more health and less dizzy potential than Claw does. Seeing how skillful Kusumondo was, I wanted him to take it especially since it went 2/5 down to the last hit when both players were 1/1. He was climbing a big hill to get to the top, and I had to root for the guy after seeing such hard work pay off. MAO was an excellent player, too, and I didn't want to see him lose either, but I thought if it came down to it, the Honda player would probably take it a lot harder after such hard work and I felt he deserved to be there. I also saw MAO play Claw how Claw should be played, using a tight poking game and normals to chip away at his opponent's health, and looping when an opening came into play.

    I think everyone wanted Kusumondo to win. He's a super nice guy, he had his kid watching him play, and he damn near won the first ToL with HONDA. It's not like he had an easy bracket either, he had to face Ryus, old shotos, and a Deejay to get there. But props to MAO to climb back from loser's and take it. He clearly made some adjustments in his game, both prior to grand finals and during the match itself. You could tell he took his 3-0 loss to heart when he got knocked down to Loser's, and upped the scumbag factor to take it down to the final round of the reset. It was an awesome example of how two near-perfect masters of their characters can go toe-to-toe, while using a variety of tools, techniques, and mind games to win out.
    I personally feel like Damdai lost the mindset to win after everyone on stream was being so derisive towards him during the Afro Legends match. I doubt he was at the top of his game after losing a good chunk of change and credibility in the eyes of many.

    Are you referring to the comments on the stream chat? I doubt he read that during the tournament. In any case, I think this event really motivated him to practice and step up his game to reclaim the title, which is the way it should be. I think Damdai was just caught off guard by MAO's dominance with Claw, and is most likely revising his strategy against Claw to make sure it doesn't happen again.
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde Resident tech talk double poster Joined: Posts: 4,838
    I think everyone wanted Kusumondo to win. He's a super nice guy, he had his kid watching him play, and he damn near won the first ToL with HONDA. It's not like he had an easy bracket either, he had to face Ryus, old shotos, and a Deejay to get there. But props to MAO to climb back from loser's and take it. He clearly made some adjustments in his game, both prior to grand finals and during the match itself. You could tell he took his 3-0 loss to heart when he got knocked down to Loser's, and upped the scumbag factor to take it down to the final round of the reset. It was an awesome example of how two near-perfect masters of their characters can go toe-to-toe, while using a variety of tools, techniques, and mind games to win out.

    I was amazed he made a 9-1 match look like it was in his favor, going up against one of the best DeeJay players in the country. Dude has major skill.
    Are you referring to the comments on the stream chat? I doubt he read that during the tournament. In any case, I think this event really motivated him to practice and step up his game to reclaim the title, which is the way it should be. I think Damdai was just caught off guard by MAO's dominance with Claw, and is most likely revising his strategy against Claw to make sure it doesn't happen again.

    Yeah, the chat, but I'm sure losing a hugely hyped money match with lots of people voting against you would do a number on your mindset. I know I'd probably have been thinking about it afterwards and most likely not very focused, but that's me. Maybe Damdai doesn't take that kind of stuff to his head and really was in it, and maybe just wasn't ready for MAO's Claw.
    Disclaimer: I work for Paradise Arcade Shop. My posts are probably biased. Take that into consideration. Bye!
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,722
    I was amazed he made a 9-1 match look like it was in his favor, going up against one of the best DeeJay players in the country. Dude has major skill.

    Yeah, the chat, but I'm sure losing a hugely hyped money match with lots of people voting against you would do a number on your mindset. I know I'd probably have been thinking about it afterwards and most likely not very focused, but that's me. Maybe Damdai doesn't take that kind of stuff to his head and really was in it, and maybe just wasn't ready for MAO's Claw.

    It was impressive, but then again, I don't think Afro has ever played a Honda in tournament that's on the skill level of Kusumondo. That was enough to tip Kusumondo the 3-2 win.

    Losses are what make champions. Nobody ever got to the top of their game by being complacent and happy. If ToL showed us anything, is that it reaffirms that Japan's best are on a whole other level than our own best. It's hopefully going to force all of us, Afro and Damdai included, to step up our game, and the improve the overall skill of the community as a whole.

    Of course, this is easier in Japan, where they all live in closer proximity to one another, but meh, can't do anything about that.
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde Resident tech talk double poster Joined: Posts: 4,838
    Oh yeah, fully agreed. Being in New Mexico, it's very hard to find local competition for anything, but I knew a few people who wouldn't mind getting back into ST. So maybe we'll show up at EVO next year and join ToL.
    Disclaimer: I work for Paradise Arcade Shop. My posts are probably biased. Take that into consideration. Bye!
  • AlexisdabombAlexisdabomb Joined: Posts: 2,528
    Okay, scrub question(s). This has always confused me about ST and the one thing that really does not translate to other fighters at all. I don't get tick-throws or tick-command grabs. I read somewhere that the only way to get out of let's say Honda does jump in Bodysplash, Jab, then Orochi, is to do a special to get out. But of course they can fake you out and all that.

    So what can you do with Claw to escape tick-throws?
    "I wish someone would flex in front of the camera and say I'm awesome....

    ;_; "

    Dander.
  • DANZANDANZAN Joined: Posts: 6,582
    Okay, scrub question(s). This has always confused me about ST and the one thing that really does not translate to other fighters at all. I don't get tick-throws or tick-command grabs. I read somewhere that the only way to get out of let's say Honda does jump in Bodysplash, Jab, then Orochi, is to do a special to get out. But of course they can fake you out and all that.

    So what can you do with Claw to escape tick-throws?

    reversal flipkick.

    angelpalm wrote: »
    People have to complain to counter act that massive influx of idiot gamers that just eat whatever shit pie developers and studios crap out in front of them. If people didn't complain we would all be playing NMS for years right along side the martian.
  • AlexisdabombAlexisdabomb Joined: Posts: 2,528
    edited May 2014
    Anything else? Can you Flipkick his ButtSplash?

    No Homo.
    "I wish someone would flex in front of the camera and say I'm awesome....

    ;_; "

    Dander.
  • DANZANDANZAN Joined: Posts: 6,582
    ask this guy:
    @Shari
    angelpalm wrote: »
    People have to complain to counter act that massive influx of idiot gamers that just eat whatever shit pie developers and studios crap out in front of them. If people didn't complain we would all be playing NMS for years right along side the martian.
  • ShariShari Overestimated. Joined: Posts: 2,626
    Yes you can flipkick his buttsplash.

    Something else to try is backflip but depending on the character they can still hit the recovery of the backflip.

    For instance boxer can try to throw with mp.
    Whiff the attack.
    Walkup and throw your recovery anyway.
    Haunts: Is it lag or just impeccable footsies and spacing, I don't know.
    MiloDC: I beat YuuVega -- yes, that YuuVega -- the first time I played Claw seriously in my entire life.
  • AlexisdabombAlexisdabomb Joined: Posts: 2,528
    I try to do the Flipkick when they go for the obvious tick-throw and nothing happens.
    "I wish someone would flex in front of the camera and say I'm awesome....

    ;_; "

    Dander.
  • x64x64 Fuck your SRK Joined: Posts: 3,205
    Anything else? Can you Flipkick his ButtSplash?

    No Homo.

    Yes. His first hitting frames on his attack kickflip is all red "invincible" hitbox.

    Vega_st3.png

    The second part of the active hitting frames on the flipkick have vulnerable blue hitboxes so you have to time your flipkick pretty spot on to get the clean hit and be in position to juggle with another flipkick.

    Vega_st4.png

    The SRK ST wiki has some great stuff to look over if you havent been there yet: http://wiki.shoryuken.com/Vega_(ST)
    ST/HDR/USF2: Honda/Rog/O.Hawk | USF4: Bison | SFV: Ryu :(
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  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,722
    I try to do the Flipkick when they go for the obvious tick-throw and nothing happens.

    Flip kick and backflips both work. Flip kick is a counter option, whereas backflips are more of an escape option.

    If it's not coming out, it's a timing issue. You just gotta practice it. It helps to learn how to piano your inputs, so that you have a higher chance of success. It takes time to practice in order to be able to perform consistently.

    If they're trying to tick from a far distance, you can also attempt to simply jump out of it. If your opponent makes an error in timing or spacing, jumping out of it is often a safer option, with minimal risk or damage landing on you.
  • free_manfree_man Joined: Posts: 81
    I've noticed sometimes on Guile's match the Claw's cr.HK doesn't knockdown him but reset. It's normal or a glitch?
  • Born2SPDBorn2SPD SPD Fanatic Joined: Posts: 276
    That will happen if Guile is airbone... Note that his far.HK and knee bazooka puts him almost imediatelly to the air even though he looks like he is touching the ground. Thats my guess... guile was hit by vega's slide on some of the very first frames of these moves.
    I keep reading stuff about ST revival, about bringing this game back to life...
    Its nice to see big tourneys happening and old top players giving this game a chance again...
    But what we really need is new players... And having a strong scene obviously helps...
    But in my opinion what will really bring new players to our community is good tutorials/character guides so they can learn easily and have something to start... So, actually good players, stop being selfish and write stuff about the chars you know! The wiki is lacking so much basic content... Stop being lazy and do something about it.
  • free_manfree_man Joined: Posts: 81
    Born2SPD wrote: »
    That will happen if Guile is airbone... Note that his far.HK and knee bazooka puts him almost imediatelly to the air even though he looks like he is touching the ground. Thats my guess... guile was hit by vega's slide on some of the very first frames of these moves.

    Nice theory! I'll test the Guile's moves more patiently, one by one and confirm this more solidly to after post it here.
  • HokutoHokuto Eat it raw Joined: Posts: 16
    You'll see it more often when you time incorrectly the slide to punish a whiffed flash kick; too early and you'll end up resetting Guile.
    Fly to the Leaden Sky
  • free_manfree_man Joined: Posts: 81
    I don't know if this can be considered a airborne move but except Zangief's Headbutt all sweeps from all characters doesn't works against airborne moves because instead knocked down, they will reset them. This can be considered a glitch/bug? Please, feel free if you think that wrong info and/or want add more useful content to correct it.
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,722
    free_man wrote: »
    I don't know if this can be considered a airborne move but except Zangief's Headbutt all sweeps from all characters doesn't works against airborne moves because instead knocked down, they will reset them. This can be considered a glitch/bug? Please, feel free if you think that wrong info and/or want add more useful content to correct it.

    I'm sure it has more to do with when the grounded attack hits your character. If you hit the opposing character during their landing and/or grounded frames, it'll knock down. If you hit them while they're still in an airborne state, it just hits them out of the air.
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