Cheapest way to build an arcade stick?

derukunderukun filthy fucking casualJoined: Posts: 455
Here's the scenario. Me and a friend are hard at work to begin a fighting game club at my high school, and so far we have about 4 people set and a handful more that are interested in getting into the genre.

The problem? Only me and my friend have a stick, which isn't exactly very productive. Ideally we want to get at least 2-3 set ups running at the same time so people aren't always just watching. The only issue is that people aren't going to just dish out $80+ on something they might not even enjoy, so we wanted to be able to supply sticks for these people.

And of course we don't have much money so saving as much as we can is the key.
From what I've gathered, minimum cost to build a stick: Joystick - $22, 6 Buttons - $13 (Sanwa OBSF), Multi console PCB MC Cthulu - $40, Wiring - $5-10

That totals to about $90 without even getting a case. Might just opt to using a shoe box for the time being for a case...

Anyone know how I can cut costs a bit more? Hopefully I want to get it down to around like $50-60. Is that too unrealistic? Wouldn't mind getting clone parts because of course this is for total newbies to the genre/sticks in general.
SFV Fighter ID - blackolives

Comments

  • NENDONENDO I will meditate and then destroy you. Joined: Posts: 3,351
    Instead of a shoebox, consider tupperware. It's much more sturdy so it will last longer and take more abuse. I'm actually making a top secret DIY ghetto-fab stick right now that you might find interesting. PM me and I'll fill you in. If you are thrifty it could save you about $25-30 less than a Tek-Case which, I believe, is about the cheapest case around atm. You can get Sanwa button sets from eBay on the cheap though they are likely clones. They should serve their purpose and you can probably even put Sanwa switches in them if you ever decide to upgrade a bit. You should also consider cheaper joystick options like Zippy sticks from Paradise Arcade Shop. They're similar to LS-32 and should be ok for what you need them for.
  • DarksakulDarksakul Your lack of faith disturbs me Joined: Posts: 24,263
    edited February 2014
    Check out thrift stores and Hobby/Craft Stores for Wooden boxes to be used as a case. Sometimes a good large aluminum carrying case isn't bad either.
    You will need a Drill, and a 24mm drill bit and a 30mm drill bit, for wood you can use a spade or foster bit or a hole saw, in metal you have to stick with the hole saw.

    P.S. DIY is not always Cheaper.

    Example Hori V3 (Six button stick) can be purchased online for $40 to $60
    http://www.amazon.com/PS3-Fighting-Stick-V3-Playstation-3/dp/B0057WDBHA/ref=sr_1_1?s=videogames&ie=UTF8&qid=1392947802&sr=1-1&keywords=PS3+Fighting+Stick+V3
    http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odkw=hori+V3&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2045573.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xhori+fightstick+V3&_nkw=hori+fightstick+V3&_sacat=0

    Hell you might find one at Gamestop.
    “Strong people don't put others down... They lift them up.”
    - Darth Vader, Philanthropist
  • derukunderukun filthy fucking casual Joined: Posts: 455
    Does that V3 work on PC as well?
    SFV Fighter ID - blackolives
  • DarksakulDarksakul Your lack of faith disturbs me Joined: Posts: 24,263
    Yes
    “Strong people don't put others down... They lift them up.”
    - Darth Vader, Philanthropist
  • derukunderukun filthy fucking casual Joined: Posts: 455
    Great, other than the fact that it's a total pain in the ass to sub in Sanwa parts, $60 is an amazing price.

    It seems the stock Hori parts aren't exactly terrible either so I may buy one and just keep it around for the sole purpose of letting other people use it.
    SFV Fighter ID - blackolives
  • Zx-toleZx-tole Joined: Posts: 627
    The Injustice arcade stick is 40 bucks at gamestop right now, it's not too mod friendly but that's pretty cheap for a stick.
    Currently Playing-
    KOFXIV: King of Dinosaurs/Daimon/Maxima
  • CoffeejuiceCoffeejuice Joined: Posts: 401
    check your local craigslist. i found a ps3 madcatz SE w/ sanwa parts for 40 dollars the other week and also a ps3 TE for 65 a few months ago. if you talk to the seller about your fighting game club they'll likely give you a discount. FGC people are cool like that
  • RadewagonRadewagon Joined: Posts: 47
    I guess I'll be the first to suggest it...

    You could save quite a bit by going with Happ/IL "American" style parts. Since you are offering these sticks mostly to amateurs, they likely won't care about having that Sanwa (or comparable) precision. Not only that, but most amateur players will probably prefer Happ parts because they are what amateurs are most accustomed to.

    Feel free to laugh at the suggestion if need be, but, hey, it's definitely something to consider.
  • SaucyPinoySaucyPinoy Ako Joined: Posts: 215
    If you have a woodshop class/club at your school, maybe they can build you guys a case for free. But i think your cheapest option is to look for a stick on craigslist and swap in parts.
    "In the future, everyone will be world-famous for 15 minutes." - Andy Warhol
  • derukunderukun filthy fucking casual Joined: Posts: 455
    I actually do have a woodshop class, but I was stupid and didn't take the course -_- might take it in my senior year (despite it being a 11th grade course) just so I can learn to work with basic tools and be able to make my own wooden case.

    Will be checking craigslist too.
    SFV Fighter ID - blackolives
  • FreedomGundamFreedomGundam Freedom, ikimasu! Joined: Posts: 2,533
    Alternatively, for a stick for people who are starting out, instead of getting JLFs and OBSF-30s, you might be able to scrape by at the beginning using Brawlstick or other similar imitation parts.
    Current at-home stick: Hori VLX Kuro (LS-40-01 + PS-14-K)
    Current portable stick: Mad Catz TvC (LS-40-01 + PS-14-KN)
    Current guest-sticks: custom ABS Modular stick (JLF + OBSN-30), custom Saint-stick (Happ/IL Competition)
    Cabinet: custom "Resistor" cabinet (32" LCD, X360, P1=LS-32-01 + PS-14-KN, P2=JLF + OBSC-30)
    Previous sticks: custom Happ CvS2 Double-sticks, custom Happ Hitomi-stick & Xenosaga-stick, custom Sanwa/Seimitsu Neptune-stick and Sylvia-stick, modded Mad Catz TvC, modded Mad Catz Brawlstick, modded Hori FSVX, modded Exar Exaprize

    Looking for:
    CPS2 (green or blue): Hyper SF2
    Naomi GD-ROM: SF Zero3 Upper, Puyo Puyo Fever, Triggerheart Excelica, Ikaruga
  • RiderkickerRiderkicker Joined: Posts: 164
    Yeah, you don't really need to replace the buttons on a Brawlstick. The joystick, definitely and you can just buy a lower priced Seimitsu stick and plug it in there and you're basically set for a while. That's what I did with my TvC stick combined a six button Dreamcast controller.
  • FreedomGundamFreedomGundam Freedom, ikimasu! Joined: Posts: 2,533
    Yeah, you don't really need to replace the buttons on a Brawlstick. The joystick, definitely and you can just buy a lower priced Seimitsu stick and plug it in there and you're basically set for a while.
    I'd say you wouldn't even need to replace the joystick at first. Sure, the imitation-JLF will get destroyed, but only replace it then. If people are just starting up, it's more of the formfactor of a joystick that you want them to get used to. You'll replace the Mad Catz fake-JLF when it breaks, but hopefully the enjoyment of playing on a stick will encourage people to buy their own arcade sticks before that happens.

    Case and point: my brother and I organized a Street Fighter 4 evening at my old workplace once. I had just received my Hori Fighting Stick VX in the mail the day before, and I kept the stock parts in just so the majority of non-gamers could use it for the event before I gutted the thing completely. Everyone had a blast using it, even though the stock parts in the Hori FSVX are crap.

    Current at-home stick: Hori VLX Kuro (LS-40-01 + PS-14-K)
    Current portable stick: Mad Catz TvC (LS-40-01 + PS-14-KN)
    Current guest-sticks: custom ABS Modular stick (JLF + OBSN-30), custom Saint-stick (Happ/IL Competition)
    Cabinet: custom "Resistor" cabinet (32" LCD, X360, P1=LS-32-01 + PS-14-KN, P2=JLF + OBSC-30)
    Previous sticks: custom Happ CvS2 Double-sticks, custom Happ Hitomi-stick & Xenosaga-stick, custom Sanwa/Seimitsu Neptune-stick and Sylvia-stick, modded Mad Catz TvC, modded Mad Catz Brawlstick, modded Hori FSVX, modded Exar Exaprize

    Looking for:
    CPS2 (green or blue): Hyper SF2
    Naomi GD-ROM: SF Zero3 Upper, Puyo Puyo Fever, Triggerheart Excelica, Ikaruga
  • derukunderukun filthy fucking casual Joined: Posts: 455
    I've seen some video reviews saying the stock parts in the FSVX/V3 aren't that bad
    SFV Fighter ID - blackolives
  • FreedomGundamFreedomGundam Freedom, ikimasu! Joined: Posts: 2,533
    You could be right (I didn't actually use the the FSVX with the stock parts myself), but I think my point still stands: I still feel that Brawlstick parts (both stick+buttons) are perfectly usable in your situation, just not as durable, especially if the intention is mainly to get people interested in the formfactor enough to entice them to invest in the hobby on their own.
    Current at-home stick: Hori VLX Kuro (LS-40-01 + PS-14-K)
    Current portable stick: Mad Catz TvC (LS-40-01 + PS-14-KN)
    Current guest-sticks: custom ABS Modular stick (JLF + OBSN-30), custom Saint-stick (Happ/IL Competition)
    Cabinet: custom "Resistor" cabinet (32" LCD, X360, P1=LS-32-01 + PS-14-KN, P2=JLF + OBSC-30)
    Previous sticks: custom Happ CvS2 Double-sticks, custom Happ Hitomi-stick & Xenosaga-stick, custom Sanwa/Seimitsu Neptune-stick and Sylvia-stick, modded Mad Catz TvC, modded Mad Catz Brawlstick, modded Hori FSVX, modded Exar Exaprize

    Looking for:
    CPS2 (green or blue): Hyper SF2
    Naomi GD-ROM: SF Zero3 Upper, Puyo Puyo Fever, Triggerheart Excelica, Ikaruga
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 37,130 mod
    Just mod a Brawlstick, custom builds are more expensive and the reason people get them usually isn't to save money.
  • derukunderukun filthy fucking casual Joined: Posts: 455
    Can't find any Brawlsticks locally, and on Amazon its $100. Hopefully a stock FSV3 will serve its purpose, and I might mod it eventually (I think I have to solder for the joystick though ugh)
    SFV Fighter ID - blackolives
  • LLeg3ndLLeg3nd Always Eating Joined: Posts: 279
    There is no such thing as a cheap custom stick. Just go for a brawlstick and mod it, if you can find it for cheap. Knowing that you are Canadian, that might not be easy unless you look on ebay.
    twitch.tv/lleg3nd
  • derukunderukun filthy fucking casual Joined: Posts: 455
    Yeah, there are no cheap brawlsticks out here.

    Lol, I thought custom stick was akin to building a custom PC but nope... not at all.

    If anyone can direct me to somewhere I can learn how to mod joystick on a V3 that'd be greately appreciated.
    SFV Fighter ID - blackolives
  • DarksakulDarksakul Your lack of faith disturbs me Joined: Posts: 24,263
    “Strong people don't put others down... They lift them up.”
    - Darth Vader, Philanthropist
  • FreedomGundamFreedomGundam Freedom, ikimasu! Joined: Posts: 2,533
    edited February 2014
    derukun wrote: »
    If anyone can direct me to somewhere I can learn how to mod joystick on a V3 that'd be greately appreciated.
    Darksakul wrote: »

    There are a few different ways to put in a JLF into the Hori FSVX, I would say the "proper" mod to install it is on Page 10 of that thread (posted by me :D)
    Current at-home stick: Hori VLX Kuro (LS-40-01 + PS-14-K)
    Current portable stick: Mad Catz TvC (LS-40-01 + PS-14-KN)
    Current guest-sticks: custom ABS Modular stick (JLF + OBSN-30), custom Saint-stick (Happ/IL Competition)
    Cabinet: custom "Resistor" cabinet (32" LCD, X360, P1=LS-32-01 + PS-14-KN, P2=JLF + OBSC-30)
    Previous sticks: custom Happ CvS2 Double-sticks, custom Happ Hitomi-stick & Xenosaga-stick, custom Sanwa/Seimitsu Neptune-stick and Sylvia-stick, modded Mad Catz TvC, modded Mad Catz Brawlstick, modded Hori FSVX, modded Exar Exaprize

    Looking for:
    CPS2 (green or blue): Hyper SF2
    Naomi GD-ROM: SF Zero3 Upper, Puyo Puyo Fever, Triggerheart Excelica, Ikaruga
  • derukunderukun filthy fucking casual Joined: Posts: 455
    Alright, thanks!

    By the way, is there anyone who does art/plexi for this?
    SFV Fighter ID - blackolives
  • DarksakulDarksakul Your lack of faith disturbs me Joined: Posts: 24,263
    if you are under a budget I say skip the custom art for now.

    But best choice is either a self adhesive laminate or adhesive vinyl print.
    “Strong people don't put others down... They lift them up.”
    - Darth Vader, Philanthropist
  • FreedomGundamFreedomGundam Freedom, ikimasu! Joined: Posts: 2,533
    derukun wrote: »
    By the way, is there anyone who does art/plexi for this?
    I don't think Art supports the Hori FSVX; I know blklighting21 did back in the day, but he's been inaccessible for ~2 years now.

    I agree with @Darksakul: while artwork and plexi is nice, it's definitely on the "nice-to-have" list rather than the "need-to-have", especially since you're on a budget.

    And going back to my initial point: you want to make sticks accessible to the members of the club that are starting out, and your main goal should be in the hopes that they like it enough to go buy/mod/customize their own. I feel that a stock Hori FSVX is fully sufficient for that purpose, and you're trying a little too hard to provide something that's overkill (full-Sanwa, art, plexi, etc) for what you need (essentially just a joystick and some buttons, even if they're mounted on a Tupperware). Your club should keep them normally as guest- or beater-sticks, but you should be encouraging your members to look into getting and bringing their own gear.

    Kinda like a tennis club: the club might have some spare tennis rackets for guests, but they're usually by far barely average and wouldn't be specially customized (ie, strings, tension, grip, etc) in any way. Any recurring member who's serious enough to be recurring would (and probably should) be bringing their own racket. Same principle here.

    I know you're definitely trying to do good by providing quality parts to the members of your club, but I feel that you're trying a little too hard and consequently, doing a little too much. :)
    Current at-home stick: Hori VLX Kuro (LS-40-01 + PS-14-K)
    Current portable stick: Mad Catz TvC (LS-40-01 + PS-14-KN)
    Current guest-sticks: custom ABS Modular stick (JLF + OBSN-30), custom Saint-stick (Happ/IL Competition)
    Cabinet: custom "Resistor" cabinet (32" LCD, X360, P1=LS-32-01 + PS-14-KN, P2=JLF + OBSC-30)
    Previous sticks: custom Happ CvS2 Double-sticks, custom Happ Hitomi-stick & Xenosaga-stick, custom Sanwa/Seimitsu Neptune-stick and Sylvia-stick, modded Mad Catz TvC, modded Mad Catz Brawlstick, modded Hori FSVX, modded Exar Exaprize

    Looking for:
    CPS2 (green or blue): Hyper SF2
    Naomi GD-ROM: SF Zero3 Upper, Puyo Puyo Fever, Triggerheart Excelica, Ikaruga
  • FreedomGundamFreedomGundam Freedom, ikimasu! Joined: Posts: 2,533
    Hell, if I didn't already plunk my extra Brawlstick parts (2 sticks' worth) into guest-sticks myself, I'd just ship 'em to you as a donation to your club.
    I'm sure you could find some people who'd be willing to unload their Brawlstick parts for you for cheap (or maybe even free) if they've already upgraded to all-Sanwa. Afterwards, you'd just need to mount them into a casing (I'd probably go the Tupperware route), get a PCB (if you're looking at PS3/PS2 support, the ZD Rematch Encoder is solderless and like $14) and voilà, cheap sticks!
    Current at-home stick: Hori VLX Kuro (LS-40-01 + PS-14-K)
    Current portable stick: Mad Catz TvC (LS-40-01 + PS-14-KN)
    Current guest-sticks: custom ABS Modular stick (JLF + OBSN-30), custom Saint-stick (Happ/IL Competition)
    Cabinet: custom "Resistor" cabinet (32" LCD, X360, P1=LS-32-01 + PS-14-KN, P2=JLF + OBSC-30)
    Previous sticks: custom Happ CvS2 Double-sticks, custom Happ Hitomi-stick & Xenosaga-stick, custom Sanwa/Seimitsu Neptune-stick and Sylvia-stick, modded Mad Catz TvC, modded Mad Catz Brawlstick, modded Hori FSVX, modded Exar Exaprize

    Looking for:
    CPS2 (green or blue): Hyper SF2
    Naomi GD-ROM: SF Zero3 Upper, Puyo Puyo Fever, Triggerheart Excelica, Ikaruga
  • DarksakulDarksakul Your lack of faith disturbs me Joined: Posts: 24,263
    Start small, get some cheap sticks off Amazon, eBay, Craigslist, Thrift Stores, Pawn shops and so on.
    These will be your loaner sticks, it also encourage people to eventually get their own sticks/controllers.

    Don't worry about upgrades/repairs until a repair is needed.
    And when you do repair stick to the basics, don't waste time and money on custom art or funky button colors or translucent (clear) parts.
    “Strong people don't put others down... They lift them up.”
    - Darth Vader, Philanthropist
  • derukunderukun filthy fucking casual Joined: Posts: 455
    edited February 2014
    Alright, thanks guys.

    (By the way, I inquired about art/plexi because eventually I'd take the sticks back when I graduate because they are mine... and I'd want to mod it haha)
    SFV Fighter ID - blackolives
  • Zx-toleZx-tole Joined: Posts: 627
    found this link from a newbie dojo thread. brawl stick for a decent price.
    Currently Playing-
    KOFXIV: King of Dinosaurs/Daimon/Maxima
  • ed1371ed1371 Yogahh Joined: Posts: 1,527
    edited February 2014
    psst... there are cheap brawlsticks out there on amazon.... the above link: http://www.amazon.com/PlayStation-WWE-Stars-Brawl-Stick-3/dp/B004M25NNQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1393029088&sr=8-1&keywords=wwe+arcade+stick is $39 and free shipping
    why crimp when you can solder??

    PSN: Nippage
  • LLeg3ndLLeg3nd Always Eating Joined: Posts: 279
    Guys I mentioned he was Canadian so importing it will cost a little extra...

    Also you Americans get the good Amazon :(
    twitch.tv/lleg3nd
  • derukunderukun filthy fucking casual Joined: Posts: 455
    $40 on the American but $99 on Canadian. GG
    SFV Fighter ID - blackolives
  • AOS-AOS- C Joined: Posts: 3,269
    Hah Derukun...

    Guess who this is :p Check my sig.


    I got no tips on how you're going to save money on the parts and electronics, but if you got a Dollarama close to you, stop by one, head to the craft aisle. It will take some work, but you can build yourself a decently-size case if you take two of those 8x10 pictures frames, stack and secure them together. I'm in the middle of making another stick, I was going to use the picture frames but ended up switching to something else. This means I have 2 picture frames you can use to save you a lot of time and money.

    If you are able to make a trip to the art store "Abovegrounds" that's on McCaul St, you can get yourself sheets of masonite to make the top and bottom panels.

    It won't look the prettiest, but it's enough to function as a usable joystick controller and you're spending very little if you're willing to forfeit aesthetics to dish out a LOT of sticks.

    PSN/Steam: AOS- [Gouken, Ryu]
    Wii U (SSB4): Okrapaeli [Mario, Link]
  • derukunderukun filthy fucking casual Joined: Posts: 455
    No way, is that you Andy?

    Interesting, I'll look into that too.
    SFV Fighter ID - blackolives
  • AOS-AOS- C Joined: Posts: 3,269
    edited February 2014
    Yup it's Andy.

    I apologize in advanced if I come off as overly-pushy, but given that you want to jump straight into forming a club and paying for all the joysticks without a thorough assessment of how many people may be interested in joining your club, I really would suggest keeping it nice and cheap. You don't know just how many people would be interested in your club and you should consider the possibility that less people join than expected.

    Now that I think about it, skip the picture frames and masonite at the two stores. Just go to Abovegrounds directly. You can get off at St.Patrick station on the subway for a 5-6 minute walk. Go for the pre-made panels for paintings. They're like canvases except instead of canvas they use a sheet of wood. I bought myself a 8x10 frame that's with a 1.5" depth for $3.59. Show them a student card and you get a 10% discount. Yeah you're saving 36 cents, but every little bit counts! 8x10 may be small for you, but you are lugging these around with you, so portability may be something to consider.

    What I imagine you can do is get two and put them together like two sides of a clam shell ($6-10 case with little-to-no assembly required). I would hinge it too. If not you could keep the two pieces together with magnets, but that's more work. Anyhow, this will keep the case in one piece, and it will be easy to access in the future (i.e. diagnosing a malfunction, changing parts, etc.). And since the panels are already cut up and square, you can jump straight to drilling out holes and painting.

    Low-priced cases: $6-10



    As for parts, You can get yourself a set on eBay. I've been finding cheap-ass listings there. You get a complete JLF (pcb, plate, ball top, harness, everything), as well as enough OBSF-30s for about $50. Sounds like a lot, but shipping is low or entirely free (don't forget to factor in that cost too). A cheap brawlstick for $40 as a few mentioned above is worth pursuing first, but if you need more sticks you can look on eBay.

    Here are some listings I found just now:
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/171204129441
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/171120420892

    Low-priced parts: $50 (includes shipping if you're looking at the Asia-based sellers)



    Thinking about it, if you're looking to do PC with the optional PS3, perhaps there are some generic PC controllers out there that also work on the PS3. I remember buying a remade USB Saturn PAD I got for $10 off eBay. I could've padhacked that and spent less money than on an MC Cthulhu. Would required some soldering time, but my dad already owns a soldering iron so I didn't need to buy one. Don't know about you though. Something worth considering maybe?

    If you really want to go cheaper, I used to play with a friend with the two joystick controllers I had. Both were padhacked PS1 controllers and I had this PS-to-USB adaptor that allowed up to two controllers to be plugged in. This works on the PS3 and PC. You get a setup where you have two controllers that can play on PS3 and PC with no drivers to install for less than a single MC Cthulhu (+ other required cables + shipping). The $7 adaptor can be found on dx.com ("twin usb playstation adaptor". It looks like a blue triangle). The only drawback is that there is some input lag, but I didn't notice this until I took street fighter more seriously anyway. Plus, since both controllers are going through the same adaptor, both are going to experience the same amount of lag.

    Low-priced electronics: $30-$40 (no shipping, includes two circuit boards)





    P.S. don't forget you'll need more than 6 buttons; start, select, maybe "home". And if it people get into the game enough, you can try selling them the sticks to make some money back. They won't have to dump $100 on a brand new stick, and you won't have a bunch of extra controllers you probably won't ever use.
    PSN/Steam: AOS- [Gouken, Ryu]
    Wii U (SSB4): Okrapaeli [Mario, Link]
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde Resident tech talk double poster Joined: Posts: 4,838
    I played on stock Hori buttons (not Kuro, the older ones with tkc switches that Seimitsu also puts in their buttons) for a good year or so. They worked perfectly fine, were even sturdier than my Sanwa buttons (silly snap in tabs) and the only reason I am still not using them is because I got transparent Seimitsu smokes.
    Disclaimer: I work for Paradise Arcade Shop. My posts are probably biased. Take that into consideration. Bye!
  • Zx-toleZx-tole Joined: Posts: 627
    LLeg3nd wrote: »
    Guys I mentioned he was Canadian so importing it will cost a little extra...

    Also you Americans get the good Amazon :(

    sorry! I should've read harder. guess I'll have to find some canadian sites.
    Currently Playing-
    KOFXIV: King of Dinosaurs/Daimon/Maxima
  • rtdzignrtdzign Joined: Posts: 5,176
    There are a bunch of ps3 Injustice Battle editions for $40 on Gamestop. Not sure what the Canada situation does for you, but those seem to be decent starter sticks.
  • guardianx9guardianx9 Joined: Posts: 8
    edited October 7
    Jus go pick up wood on trash day .. make holes and ur done... The sanwa part will be the greatest cost .. i make mine from. Mdf. Wood on trash day.... The parts n zero delay pbc from ebay .. i love my cheaply made fight stick
  • BolSadguyBolSadguy Toronto Stick Modder Joined: Posts: 1,609
    Obligatory

    wise.jpg
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