3rd Strike Lag/Speed Tests

isotopezisotopez Joined: Posts: 125
3S Speed Test Results

3S Lag Results - Spreadsheet
CPS3 - 3.6
PS2 - 4.7
PS3 (filters off) - 3.8
PS3 (filters on) - 3.8
360 (filters off) - 4.1
360 (training mode) - 3.9
Dreamcast - 6.

Emulated 3S Lag Results (Excluding Monitor Lag)
FBA (aero on) - 6.0
FBA (aero off) - 4.6
Shmupmame (aero on) - 5.4
Shmupmame (aero off) - 3.8
Shmupmame (fullscreen aero off) - 3.7

Emulated 3S Lag Results (Including Monitor Lag)
FBA (aero on) - 6.5
FBA (aero off) - 5.1
Shmupmame (aero on) - 6.0
Shmupmame (aero off) - 4.4
Shmupmame (fullscreen aero off) - 4.3
*All these averages should be +/- 0.5 frames of the actual lag

Platforms Tested - CPS3, PS2, PS3 (PS3 with filters on and off), 360 (and 360 in training mode), Dreamcast, FBA, and Shmupmame


Here's the setup we used:
I wired the hk button and an led to a DPST switch so that the led lights up as soon as hk is pressed.
Video was recorded at 120fps.
We recorded Chun whiffing far hk (since her far hk has an obvious first frame of animation) 50 times for each system.


An MC Cthulhu dual modded with a hori pcb was used for PS2 and PS3.
A non-dual modded hori pcb was used for the 360 and for the emulators
A stock dreamcast controller was used for the dreamcast.

A CRT was used for the consoles and CPS3
We made sure the crt's "screen tear" was above chun's head on the console ports.

An LCD monitor (Dell U2312HM) was used for the emulators


I'll refer to frames output by whatever system is being tested as a "gameplay frame," and a frame captured by the camera as a "camera frame" since the frame rates are different.

I counted the first camera frame where the led is lit as frame 1, and I counted the camera frame where the move visibly starts up as the last frame. I then divided this number by 2 to get the lag for 60fps with half a frame of precision.

Something I noticed is that CPS3 was not displaying frames in sync with the camera, whereas every other console is in sync with the camera for the entire video. This is because the consoles refresh at 60Hz and CPS3 refreshes at 59.583 Hz, which means that each frame on CPS3 is displayed slightly longer on CPS3 than on console. This isn't really new information, but it's for whoever didn't already know. The difference in length of each frame from CPS3 to console is only about 110μs. There's some images below that help illustrate this.

Here's two halfs of a frame from CPS3.
h3FvfMJ.png
Here's two halfs of a frame from CPS3 somewhere around 1 second later.
2Le6zT6.png
Here's two halfs of a frame from the PS3.
aFv1q72.png
Here's two halfs of a frame from PS3 somewhere around 1 second later.
jvk84g4.png

Post edited by isotopez on
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Comments

  • Lance3rdLance3rd Alaska 3rd Strike Joined: Posts: 986
    Also of anyone else has a high speed camera and can run the ps2 test to check our results, that would be cool. Wanna make sure it's actually ps2 version lagging a frame and that the Cthulhu has nothing to do with it.
  • ryan.ryan. Joined: Posts: 1,916
    I was going to ask to try and use a ps2
    controller.
  • Lance3rdLance3rd Alaska 3rd Strike Joined: Posts: 986
    might be able to. gotta see what the PS2 pcb looks like. I'll post once we know. yeah I agree that's probably better so we can be sure.
  • isotopezisotopez Joined: Posts: 125
    I have a feeling the mc cthulhu doesn't lag on ps2 because of the lack of variation in the ps2 test. Every trial was 5 frames except for 1, which lagged 4 frames. This could just be a coincidence, or perhaps ps2/anniversary collection handles input windows differently than other consoles. I would think that if the cthulhu added lag, ps2 would occasionally lag 6 frames (occurring whenever the button is pressed toward the end of a frame). Either that or the cthulhu lags 16.7ms i.e. 1 frame. I still want to test a ps2 controller to make sure though.
  • yomipoweryomipower not a legendary game designer Joined: Posts: 1,167
    Great tests, but I'm wondering about a few things; 1) Could you test OE with an 100% positive lag free HD monitor/tv to see does that make a differance? I'm thinking about some games actually having MORE lag when they're played on a CRT, can't remember any examples now but it's real. 2) OE lags less with filters ON...? Did you test all the filters + scanlines and combos of those?

    The odd frames you're seeing from the CPS3 are because it's refresh rate is different, something like 59.583. No Capcom Play System outputs a solid 60hz, they're all like that and that's why I think all the emulated versions feels off compared to arcade due to emulated always being solid 60hz, or whatever your screen hz is.
    Yomi, which is the Japanese word for the underworld. Also a brand of vitamins for children.
  • yomipoweryomipower not a legendary game designer Joined: Posts: 1,167
    Yeah it is a bit of an oxymoron, but I meant 0 or next to none input lag.
    Yomi, which is the Japanese word for the underworld. Also a brand of vitamins for children.
  • DoctaMarioDoctaMario Sometimes It Snows In April... Joined: Posts: 3,252
    I was really surprised to see that there was MORE lag with the filters off!
    "Money matches are against the law in Japan. They can never be good at Marvel." -4r5
  • Hol HorseHol Horse a.k.a. Fugo ~ イタリアの強大なユリアン Joined: Posts: 2,081 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    I've been saying for YEARS that the input on ps2 version felt off, I'm glad there's proof now
    gooby plz
  • ESNESN 最初はぐう... Joined: Posts: 1,347
    Very nice!
    Funny, it lags more with filter off, but then it's closer to arcade lol!

    I may be wrong (not really good at video editing stuff), but the half frame thing should not matter at all if your image is not interlaced. (how did you record videos? 720p? 720i?)
    Image is entirely drawn on each frame, so you'll never see half of current frame and half of prev one. It only darkens a part of the image, possibly making it unusable but that's it.
  • Hol HorseHol Horse a.k.a. Fugo ~ イタリアの強大なユリアン Joined: Posts: 2,081 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    edited February 2014
    since the testing system has a confidence interval of 1/2 frame, the little differences between filter settings are statistical, just due to the test having a finite number of trials, since an 1/2 frame precision tool can't measure directly an order of magnitude of 1/6th frame (which is more than the discrepance between the cps3 result and the OE filters on result).
    Increasing the repetitions (or capturing at a higher framerate) would pull the results even closer in the bell curve.
    Bottom line, filters on or of doesn't matter.
    And probably OE is the exact same as cps3 version; if not, it's still far closer than ps2.
    gooby plz
  • ryan.ryan. Joined: Posts: 1,916
    edited February 2014
    It's easy to tell the input delay from daipan loop. Completely different timing.
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,708
    ryan. wrote: »
    IMO there is no 100% lag free hd monitor.

    They exist, but they're hard to find and expensive. Iiyama Prolite 2210ES (i forget the letters) have been tested to have 0 input delay. Buddy of mine had to import it from Japan and thoroughly tested it for lag, since that's a pretty nitpicky point for the ST scene.

    They've been the standards for certain European tournaments for years, and they're fantastic.
  • telesnipertelesniper Joined: Posts: 355
    @isotopez
    @Lance3rd

    Have you looked into Groovymame yet? A good/great setup for it requires: XP, crt_emu drivers (so an older HD Radeon graphics card to maximize the emulation), preferably 120hz capable VGA monitor or a 15khz arcade monitor (one for lessened visual lag, the other for the more accurate picture.) a consistent soundcard (onboard works too) and of course the proper settings.. XP polling rate change, Groovymame config etc. (newest release accepts audio latency in the decimals... frame_delay decreases emulation lag if your system can handle it...)

    I've only been able to try out the Linux release, so I'm unfortunately stuck with added input delay compared to XP, simply because of the way Linux handles inputs. I'm going to try XP out on a different HDD though, hopefully soon... Luckily, my onboard graphics is fully compatible with the crt_emu drivers = )

    Hope you guys can get that tested, as I said before, the game just "felt" better to me on it, even though it had slightly more input delay because of Linux...
  • Lance3rdLance3rd Alaska 3rd Strike Joined: Posts: 986
    I think we can do that. Actually we might hold off on all the emu tests until the cab gets here, then if I understand correctly we can convert the output from my PC to work on one of the cab monitors. That's possible right? That way every platform we test will be on CRT.
  • telesnipertelesniper Joined: Posts: 355
    edited February 2014
    Lance3rd wrote: »
    I think we can do that. Actually we might hold off on all the emu tests until the cab gets here, then if I understand correctly we can convert the output from my PC to work on one of the cab monitors. That's possible right? That way every platform we test will be on CRT.

    I believe the conversion is possible, I don't know much about it though as I only have access to a 25khz-97khz VGA monitor. From my understanding, using something like a VGA-SCART should allow that, but I don't know anything about 15khz monitors I'm afraid...

    Also, I guess there's a way to bypass any USB delays by using a JPAC and going through a COM/Printer port or something? Can't remember the details, but it sounded very interesting. You should be able to find everything you need on their forums
    They can certainly point you in the correct direction if you can't find what you're looking for... I don't have enough knowledge on the subject to give any sort of guarantees
    = /
  • yuukiyuuki Joined: Posts: 782
    edited February 2014
    Can you guys explain this in laymans terms?

    so ps3 and cps3 on a CRT is the same?

    I could have swore I heard somewhere that arcade 3s doesn't run at 60fps or 60hz or something.

    I don't know how different the arcade cabinet monitor is, could this be a factor in the difference between console versions and arcade?

    Edit:
    The odd frames you're seeing from the CPS3 are because it's refresh rate is different, something like 59.583.

    not sure where you got this info but I knew I've heard it somewhere
    かかってきな。
  • isotopezisotopez Joined: Posts: 125
    edited February 2014
    ESN wrote: »
    I may be wrong (not really good at video editing stuff), but the half frame thing should not matter at all if your image is not interlaced. (how did you record videos? 720p? 720i?)
    Image is entirely drawn on each frame, so you'll never see half of current frame and half of prev one. It only darkens a part of the image, possibly making it unusable but that's it.

    I just realized none of the images I posted really illustrated what I was describing with the "half frame" thing. Here's a better image of the startup of chun's hk.
    dNY3TAv.png
    The bottom part is darker, but you can still see the previous image before hk starts up. If chun is cut in half, then the half frame thing doesn't matter, but if only the top part of the screen is lit up (where nothing really changes other than the timer), then I get no information about chun's state.
    Hol Horse wrote: »
    since the testing system has a confidence interval of 1/2 frame, the little differences between filter settings are statistical, just due to the test having a finite number of trials, since an 1/2 frame precision tool can't measure directly an order of magnitude of 1/6th frame (which is more than the discrepance between the cps3 result and the OE filters on result).
    Increasing the repetitions (or capturing at a higher framerate) would pull the results even closer in the bell curve.
    Bottom line, filters on or of doesn't matter.
    And probably OE is the exact same as cps3 version; if not, it's still far closer than ps2.

    Nicely said. To those thinking that there's more lag with filters off, it's not statistically true. A much bigger sample size would probably show that they're either the same, or even perhaps that filters add a little lag. That would require a higher speed camera (as hol horse said) and a larger sample size. Larger sample sizes would make these tests way too tedious though.
    yomipower wrote: »
    Great tests, but I'm wondering about a few things; 1) Could you test OE with an 100% positive lag free HD monitor/tv to see does that make a differance? I'm thinking about some games actually having MORE lag when they're played on a CRT, can't remember any examples now but it's real. 2) OE lags less with filters ON...? Did you test all the filters + scanlines and combos of those?

    The odd frames you're seeing from the CPS3 are because it's refresh rate is different, something like 59.583. No Capcom Play System outputs a solid 60hz, they're all like that and that's why I think all the emulated versions feels off compared to arcade due to emulated always being solid 60hz, or whatever your screen hz is.

    I was fairly certain I saw somewhere that cps3 didn't run at exactly 60fps, but I couldn't find the actual number anywhere, so I didn't want to make any assumptions.

    Edit: I remembered where I saw the frame rate for cps3. Mame tells you the frame rate, which is 59.583, when you look at "Game Information" inside the in-game menu.

    As hol horse pointed out, there isn't a statistical difference between the lags of cps3 and ps3 (filters on and off). For our test we turned all the filters on. I find it doubtful that any games lag more on a crt unless there's some kind of image scaling or converting going on, but I could be wrong. Either way, 3s was made for crts.
    yuuki wrote: »
    Can you guys explain this in laymans terms?

    so ps3 and cps3 on a CRT is the same?

    I could have swore I heard somewhere that arcade 3s doesn't run at 60fps or 60hz or something.

    I don't know how different the arcade cabinet monitor is, could this be a factor in the difference between console versions and arcade?

    Edit:
    The odd frames you're seeing from the CPS3 are because it's refresh rate is different, something like 59.583.

    not sure where you got this info but I knew I've heard it somewhere

    Cps3 and ps3 do seem to run at different frame rates as yomipower pointed out and as the tests indicate. Since the camera only has 1/2 a frame of precision and the frame rates are so close together, the difference in speed shouldn't really be noticeable in a lag test like this. The difference in speed may or may not be noticeable in the other tests we plan on doing (holding up and measuring the length of a long animation). Since a frame on cps3 lasts for 16.78ms, and a frame on console lasts for 16.67ms, it's possible that cps3 does actually lag more than console (by 110μs), but this also depends on how each system implements its input windows i.e. does the input window stay open for the entire frame or just a portion of the frame.
    Post edited by isotopez on
  • SpoRSpoR SpoR Joined: Posts: 346
    Can anyone explain to me what is going on in this thread and why it's important?
    Zerg!
  • Lance3rdLance3rd Alaska 3rd Strike Joined: Posts: 986
    SpoR wrote: »
    Can anyone explain to me what is going on in this thread and why it's important?

    I explained it in the second post in one sentence. Here is the long version.

    Up to this point we only knew that OE PS3 and 360 lagged the same as each other. No one had ever tested cps3 for lag or used it as a baseline to compare the console ports to. Now we know that online edition does not have extra input lag that real arcade hardware didn't have. PS2 lags an extra frame on all inputs.

    This doesn't mean they're the same overall. Everyone who has spent a lot of time on cps3 feels that there's a definite difference in speed and feel between cps3 and the console ports as well as the major emulators. There are a lot of things that can cause that that aren't input lag. We've just eliminated one possibility.

    We are going to test some of the other possibilities over the next couple weeks. There are also some possibilities that could cause a difference in how the game feels and responds that we have no good way to test. There was a thread about two years ago where various members of this community investigated some of those and came up with nothing conclusive. I'm sure it's still around to read somewhere.

    In a few week we will test FBA (the emulator that GGPO uses) and Shmupmame (a low lag alternative to MAME) and possibly Groovymame under the same conditions to see if there is any extra lag over cps3 there. Note that we will be using a CRT, editing the USB polling rates, and using windows XP which is better for lag than windows 7 or 8. Which is as close to ideal setup as we can get. Realize that whatever results we get for emulation are best case results, not what most people playing on GGPO are going to see. Windows versions with compositing, bad USB polling rates, bad video drivers, vsync, LCD monitors, all of these are common in your average computer setup and will adversely affect your input lag experience.
  • Lance3rdLance3rd Alaska 3rd Strike Joined: Posts: 986
    In terms of real world applicability, these tests are useful for deciding which version of the game will give you the closest to arcade experience. Since arcade is the standard across most communities where 3s is thriving, players who are serious about the game have an interest in being as close to arcade as possible without spending 1000 or more to get a working arcade setup.
  • petran79petran79 Here comes an old challenger Joined: Posts: 1,913
    Lance3rd wrote: »

    In a few week we will test FBA (the emulator that GGPO uses) and Shmupmame (a low lag alternative to MAME) and possibly Groovymame under the same conditions to see if there is any extra lag over cps3 there. Note that we will be using a CRT, editing the USB polling rates, and using windows XP which is better for lag than windows 7 or 8. Which is as close to ideal setup as we can get. Realize that whatever results we get for emulation are best case results, not what most people playing on GGPO are going to see. Windows versions with compositing, bad USB polling rates, bad video drivers, vsync, LCD monitors, all of these are common in your average computer setup and will adversely affect your input lag experience.

    will you test just the older FBA version on GGPO or the more recent ones as well?
    too slow!
  • ESNESN 最初はぐう... Joined: Posts: 1,347
    A good test i just thought about to compare combo timing on arcade and OE/FBA: the Necro downback HP loop.
    Each 6 hits are 1 frame and whole combo use only one button which can be 'led-ified' to see any difference and is around ~250 frames long.
    It's not really easy (at least for me ^^) but definitely easier than daipan loop!
  • JedahsMinistryJedahsMinistry BattousaiCV Joined: Posts: 542
    Anyone have access to a programmable controller? That'll remove any human errors.
    Gettysburg, PA
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  • kaz0001kaz0001 Joined: Posts: 33
    One aspect of OE that made me wonder about timing was the hit stun window. It could just be my perception, but it could explain the observation stated before that hit confirms are harder in OE. If OE is somehow quicker than arcade in that particular aspect it would result in many different timing issues.
  • hismithismit VietnAmazing Joined: Posts: 434
    Tried ShmupMame today and I must say it's much much better experience than GGPO's FBA :)
  • Hanzo_HasashiHanzo_Hasashi Primal Rage rules Joined: Posts: 1,389 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Glad to see a thread about this.

    Quick question and request if its not much of a hassle:

    Can the Dreamcast version be tested? Thanks in advance
  • jblairjblair mad tight Joined: Posts: 1,283
    ryan. wrote: »
    It's easy to tell the input delay from daipan loop. Completely different timing.
    PRE-FUCKING-CISELY

  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,708
    hismit wrote: »
    Tried ShmupMame today and I must say it's much much better experience than GGPO's FBA :)

    GGPO'S fba is garbage. It's running an outdated version and little interest from Ponder to update and improve the overall experience.

    GroovyMame and ShmupMame both vastly outperform it.
  • CounterhitCounterhit Joined: Posts: 1,351
    edited February 2014
    You guys should test those madcatz arcade sticks, I have a feeling that the lag players are complaining about, is coming from the madcatz pcbs not the ps3.
  • KomatikKomatik Card demon Joined: Posts: 2,657
    eltrouble wrote: »
    hismit wrote: »
    Tried ShmupMame today and I must say it's much much better experience than GGPO's FBA :)

    GGPO'S fba is garbage. It's running an outdated version and little interest from Ponder to update and improve the overall experience.

    GroovyMame and ShmupMame both vastly outperform it.

    Do they use much more resources? My current laptop is craptastic, dusting it would require tearing down the whole exterior and emulation is expensive.
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  • Lance3rdLance3rd Alaska 3rd Strike Joined: Posts: 986
    If someone wants to send us a Dreamcast we could test I guess. but I think Dreamcast is already well established as being a poor (laggy, inaccurate) port with notable hitbox issues. So even if we find out exactly how much lag it has probably no one is going to use it.

    With Madcatz, that's another thing we don't own. but isn't the Madcatz TE PCB already known to add a frame of lag? pretty sure I saw that someone else tested that years ago. that's we we use Hori!
  • KomatikKomatik Card demon Joined: Posts: 2,657
    It'd actually be interesting to see if there were input lag comparisons between different sticks on different systems. Thus far the only one I've seen is Toodles' test of Q4 v. Cthulhu.
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  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 34,768 mod
    You can't ask for well-thought-out changes off day 1, week 1, or mostly even month 1 play...and that's when the game is out and everyone's in the lab.
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  • Half-RoHalf-Ro Omae wa mo shinderu.... Joined: Posts: 2,009
    It was mentioned in the 3s group that the dc version has input lag (3 frames), anything to that statement?

    Sounds frivilous but, any chance of testing DC versus arcade? Ill test if I have too, just trying to save some time since op already has the set up to do proper testing.

    Or is there some real data around about the dc version have 3 more frames inherent lag?
  • Lance3rdLance3rd Alaska 3rd Strike Joined: Posts: 986
    we'll try and pick up a Dreamcast this week. right now our attention is on getting our cabinet to actually function correctly, but we'll go back to testing this stuff after that and can do Dreamcast too.
  • cribbacribba Joined: Posts: 22
    I own both PS3-OE and PS2-JP versions but I tend to run the game on PC/FBA because it's easier to get started at any given time, I can't tell the difference between game speeds from one version to another but I'm definitely interested in hearing which emulator is the most accurate.
  • DeemoDeemo Joined: Posts: 466
    So 360 laggier than PS3? interesting
  • Lance3rdLance3rd Alaska 3rd Strike Joined: Posts: 986
    Yeah I asked about that too. Mr Isotopez said it doesn't really mean it's laggier than ps3. maybe he can explain in detail for the uninitiated such as myself.
  • TiredOceanTiredOcean Low-tier theory fighter Joined: Posts: 134
    Isotopez, do you know what the error/uncertainty on your measurements are? Did you perform repeats of the test?
    This might tell us whether PS3 and 360 are equivalent or there is some small delay.
  • isotopezisotopez Joined: Posts: 125
    I think the difference between ps3 and 360 has to do with how the 120fps camera cuts the gameplay frame in two. For ps2 and both ps3 tests, the cut was somewhere above chuns head, but for both 360 tests, it was down by her knees (all of which is coincidental). This in turn affected how I counted the frames. I'm going to redo the tests for 360 and dreamcast so that each frame gets divided in close to the same place, which should make the results a little more consistent with each other.
  • RoGE9RoGE9 Joined: Posts: 1,677
    So are the ps3/360 ports decent now after the patch?
  • isotopezisotopez Joined: Posts: 125
    TiredOcean wrote: »
    Isotopez, do you know what the error/uncertainty on your measurements are? Did you perform repeats of the test?
    This might tell us whether PS3 and 360 are equivalent or there is some small delay.

    I'm doing 1 video of 50 trials for each console.

    I want to try to get more consistent results in regards to where this line:
    6GS5Tzx.png
    shows up on each console's test. There's some uncertainty introduced in how I am counting the frames as a result of that line being in a different spot between consoles.

    I should attempt to do an uncertainty analysis, but I don't want to get into that until the recorded video is more consistent.
  • DanderDander BANNED Joined: Posts: 7,213
    edited April 2014
    Isn't that line more based on the electricity itself? How exactly are you going to gauge that using homemade tests? A multimeter on the PSU? TORQUE ON TORQUE BITCHES
    8tROOXi.png
  • ESNESN 最初はぐう... Joined: Posts: 1,347
    isotopez wrote: »
    ...This in turn affected how I counted the frames. I'm going to redo the tests for 360 and dreamcast so that each frame gets divided in close to the same place, which should make the results a little more consistent with each other.
    It's probably the best way to have accurate and truly comparable results...
    I also think it may be a better idea to have like 3 videos of 15 tries than only one with 50. I can't explain why exactly and it may be a coincidence when i tried, but i think i had better results (less cut images) like that.

    Also, could you verify on PS2 and DC how does the bars/sprites/etc change on hit like i did on the frame data thread few weeks ago?
    I'm curious to know if the difference between OE and CPS3 (FBA, not directly arcade though) was also in DC and or PS2 port.
    I'd bet for an OE exclusive thing...
  • isotopezisotopez Joined: Posts: 125
    ESN wrote: »
    It's probably the best way to have accurate and truly comparable results...
    I also think it may be a better idea to have like 3 videos of 15 tries than only one with 50. I can't explain why exactly and it may be a coincidence when i tried, but i think i had better results (less cut images) like that.
    Won't the image always be cut like that if I'm recording a 60fps game with a 120fps camera? The camera will always be capturing one part of two different gameplay frames.
    ESN wrote: »
    Also, could you verify on PS2 and DC how does the bars/sprites/etc change on hit like i did on the frame data thread few weeks ago?
    I'm curious to know if the difference between OE and CPS3 (FBA, not directly arcade though) was also in DC and or PS2 port.
    I'd bet for an OE exclusive thing...
    I'll check it out and post my findings in the frame data thread.
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