3rd Strike Lag/Speed Tests

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  • DeemoDeemo Joined: Posts: 466
    So 360 laggier than PS3? interesting
  • Lance3rdLance3rd Alaska 3rd Strike Joined: Posts: 986
    Yeah I asked about that too. Mr Isotopez said it doesn't really mean it's laggier than ps3. maybe he can explain in detail for the uninitiated such as myself.
  • TiredOceanTiredOcean Low-tier theory fighter Joined: Posts: 134
    Isotopez, do you know what the error/uncertainty on your measurements are? Did you perform repeats of the test?
    This might tell us whether PS3 and 360 are equivalent or there is some small delay.
  • isotopezisotopez Joined: Posts: 125
    I think the difference between ps3 and 360 has to do with how the 120fps camera cuts the gameplay frame in two. For ps2 and both ps3 tests, the cut was somewhere above chuns head, but for both 360 tests, it was down by her knees (all of which is coincidental). This in turn affected how I counted the frames. I'm going to redo the tests for 360 and dreamcast so that each frame gets divided in close to the same place, which should make the results a little more consistent with each other.
  • RoGE9RoGE9 Joined: Posts: 1,703
    So are the ps3/360 ports decent now after the patch?
  • isotopezisotopez Joined: Posts: 125
    TiredOcean wrote: »
    Isotopez, do you know what the error/uncertainty on your measurements are? Did you perform repeats of the test?
    This might tell us whether PS3 and 360 are equivalent or there is some small delay.

    I'm doing 1 video of 50 trials for each console.

    I want to try to get more consistent results in regards to where this line:
    6GS5Tzx.png
    shows up on each console's test. There's some uncertainty introduced in how I am counting the frames as a result of that line being in a different spot between consoles.

    I should attempt to do an uncertainty analysis, but I don't want to get into that until the recorded video is more consistent.
  • DanderDander BANNED Joined: Posts: 7,227
    edited April 2014
    Isn't that line more based on the electricity itself? How exactly are you going to gauge that using homemade tests? A multimeter on the PSU? TORQUE ON TORQUE BITCHES
    8tROOXi.png
  • ESNESN 最初はぐう... Joined: Posts: 1,347
    isotopez wrote: »
    ...This in turn affected how I counted the frames. I'm going to redo the tests for 360 and dreamcast so that each frame gets divided in close to the same place, which should make the results a little more consistent with each other.
    It's probably the best way to have accurate and truly comparable results...
    I also think it may be a better idea to have like 3 videos of 15 tries than only one with 50. I can't explain why exactly and it may be a coincidence when i tried, but i think i had better results (less cut images) like that.

    Also, could you verify on PS2 and DC how does the bars/sprites/etc change on hit like i did on the frame data thread few weeks ago?
    I'm curious to know if the difference between OE and CPS3 (FBA, not directly arcade though) was also in DC and or PS2 port.
    I'd bet for an OE exclusive thing...
  • isotopezisotopez Joined: Posts: 125
    ESN wrote: »
    It's probably the best way to have accurate and truly comparable results...
    I also think it may be a better idea to have like 3 videos of 15 tries than only one with 50. I can't explain why exactly and it may be a coincidence when i tried, but i think i had better results (less cut images) like that.
    Won't the image always be cut like that if I'm recording a 60fps game with a 120fps camera? The camera will always be capturing one part of two different gameplay frames.
    ESN wrote: »
    Also, could you verify on PS2 and DC how does the bars/sprites/etc change on hit like i did on the frame data thread few weeks ago?
    I'm curious to know if the difference between OE and CPS3 (FBA, not directly arcade though) was also in DC and or PS2 port.
    I'd bet for an OE exclusive thing...
    I'll check it out and post my findings in the frame data thread.
  • yuukiyuuki Joined: Posts: 782
    edited April 2014
    Edited *sent PM*
    かかってきな。
  • Lance3rdLance3rd Alaska 3rd Strike Joined: Posts: 986
    let's have a discussion on this, if you guys are interested.

    so I think we can probably assume that 360 and PS3 both lag the same, though it is interesting that 360 averaged a bit higher consistently.

    of course you can't really lag 1/3 of a frame. a higher average would just mean that you're getting a few more 5 frame delays than the other platforms. or it could just be "that's how the screen was refreshing this time around" and mean nothing at all.

    finding a way to be accurate about it is more difficult than initially expected. what I'm taking from this is that CPS3/360/PS3 all have the same delay offline, as does OE training mode. and that PS2 is delayed a frame, and that Dreamcast is delayed two frames. but with the kinda large window for precision, it's hard to say any of that with 100% certainty.

    there's still the emulators to test, which I think is the one we'll have to regard with the most skepticism - all we can really say is how much the emulators lag on one specific setup, within a half frame of accuracy.
  • ryan.ryan. Joined: Posts: 1,918
    I'm more interested in game speed now!
  • Lance3rdLance3rd Alaska 3rd Strike Joined: Posts: 986
    me too. I think we could save your more accurate input lag testing for later. we have ballpark numbers now anyway, and I think these are mostly not a surprise to anyone, it's just nice to have confirmation of what people have been saying for years.

    onto the speed tests!
  • cribbacribba Joined: Posts: 22
    isotopez wrote: »
    Shmupmame (fullscreen aero off) - 3.7

    So Shmupmame is possibly the most accurate lag wise then? CPS3 being 3.6 and PS3 being 3.8, if we assume that the monitor response time, tearing and what-not didn't mess with the final result.
  • isotopezisotopez Joined: Posts: 125
    edited April 2014
    cribba wrote: »
    isotopez wrote: »
    Shmupmame (fullscreen aero off) - 3.7

    So Shmupmame is possibly the most accurate lag wise then? CPS3 being 3.6 and PS3 being 3.8, if we assume that the monitor response time, tearing and what-not didn't mess with the final result.

    Any error from screen tearing or ghosting would inflate the lag numbers since the move comes out, but it's a little hard to see it happening, so I might count the next frame as the startup frame. Shmupmame's purpose is to reduce lag, so it should be better than fba or mame in that regard. Groovymame is supposed to be another good alternative to fba or mame, but it's harder to set up.

    Our next goal is to test for speed differences and input timing differences. My plan for the input timing tests is to make a programmable controller. We're thinking of testing necro's elbow cannon juggles on urien (1 frame link), cancelling normals into stuff with different cancel timings, and super input windows. Let me know if there's anything specific you guys want to know about, and we might be able to fit it in.
  • Hol HorseHol Horse a.k.a. Fugo ~ イタリアの強大なユリアン Joined: Posts: 2,093 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    and people will still be using fba on shady lcd models and sub-optimal usb configuration. And still believing to play 3s.
    gooby plz
  • mpikkonmpikkon "S" class tier (OP) Joined: Posts: 355
    edited April 2014
    isotopez wrote: »
    Here's the results for fba and shmupmame. Also, we don't have a crt, so we had to use an lcd monitor, which comes with lag. We did these tests on a Dell U2312HM monitor, which is listed as having 9.3ms of lag here. I'm not sure how accurate that number is, but I posted lag numbers with the extra monitor lag and without it. Also, lcd monitors don't show the image as being cut in two on the camera, but they come with ghosting, and with aero off there's screen tearing, both of which possibly affected the lag count a little.

    3S Lag Results (Excluding Monitor Lag)
    FBA (aero on) - 6.0
    FBA (aero off) - 4.6
    Shmupmame (aero on) - 5.4
    Shmupmame (aero off) - 3.8
    Shmupmame (fullscreen aero off) - 3.7

    3S Lag Results (Including Monitor Lag)
    FBA (aero on) - 6.5
    FBA (aero off) - 5.1
    Shmupmame (aero on) - 6.0
    Shmupmame (aero off) - 4.4
    Shmupmame (fullscreen aero off) - 4.3

    edit: We're going to see if we can also test groovymame, but that may take a while to get up and running.

    Thank you for these tests. I have been telling this for quite a long time:
    "Not all emulators lag the same.
    The input delay depends on your system build and connection.
    Technology is evolving.
    The higher quality on the system mechanics, the more stable/solid PC you have, thus optimal function on any application".


    Thank you. This is justice.

    Btw, my PC is "S" class tier(OP).
  • Lance3rdLance3rd Alaska 3rd Strike Joined: Posts: 986
    edited April 2014
    Here's what I take from it:

    You should not use Aero

    You need a CRT

    GGPO will come with an extra frame of delay even on perfect setups, which will exacerbate adding GGPO delay.

    It doesn't really have anything to do with how good your computer is, more to do with what combination of settings you're using.

    I agree that it's encouraging that shmupmame looks pretty close to cps3. It means there's potential for a suitable emulator version of the game if we can address game speed questions and also deal with audio latency. Which we haven't done any tests for but is for sure one more component of the big picture.
  • Lance3rdLance3rd Alaska 3rd Strike Joined: Posts: 986
    Also worth mentioning: we didn't use 'force 60hz' which I didn't know was the standard for ggpo players. I'm not sure if that'll make any difference or not. We can find out later when Isotopez can use his more accurate method and we can run through all the possible configurations and see what impact they have. We can do that after we run the speed tests.
  • mpikkonmpikkon "S" class tier (OP) Joined: Posts: 355
    Lance3rd wrote: »
    Here's what I take from it:

    You should not use Aero
    I am aware of the fact that Aero adds input delay on applications running on the background/desktop.
    That's not shocking. It only proves that there's nothing new under the sun.
    Lance3rd wrote: »

    You need a CRT

    No.

    How will a new generation video card cooperate with an old technology monitor? Poorly at best...
    There is visual and input delay cause the VGA cable cant support the video card's huge bandwidth.

    Do your research if you want.

    For example, connect a Geforce GTX 670 on a 5ms LCD HD monitor (any reliable company name) or a CRT monitor through A VGA cable.
    The new video card (which is a very good quality product+high gaming force) is optimized for HDMI cables and HD monitors.
    You will notice image tearing, ghosting, input/visual delay on anything. Aero Off won't do anything here.
    You downgrade your own product on your own...

    Connect your new video card through a HDMI cable on a HD monitor, update drivers, directX, sound card drivers, flash the bios, etc.
    You will notice a major difference...

    A CRT monitor does the job fine when you have combination
    1.Old OS, for example Windows XP. It ultra light, most compatible with old technology products. That makes sense, since it does not support the new CPUs and Direct X 10/11.
    2.Old hardware. For example, 512/1GB video cards which are not optimized for HD resolutions. 3 year old video card/CPU/RAM at least.
    Lance3rd wrote: »
    Here's what I take from it:

    GGPO will come with an extra frame of delay even on perfect setups, which will exacerbate adding GGPO delay.

    OK, but do not overlook GGPO is outdated on Windows 7 systems. It's a modified FBA version which was released on 2009...
    Lance3rd wrote: »
    It doesn't really have anything to do with how good your computer is, more to do with what combination of settings you're using.

    Do better justice, please.
    A good computer is:
    a combination of good/high quality parts, everything is up-to-date technology and software optimizations done by the User (drivers, Direct X, bios, etc)
    Depending on the settings you apply, you find the best performance that matches your gaming.
  • isotopezisotopez Joined: Posts: 125
    Do you have a camera you could lag test your S tier computer with? That could settle something that keeps happening on these forums every few months.
  • Lance3rdLance3rd Alaska 3rd Strike Joined: Posts: 986
    edited April 2014
    I think it would be worthwhile if you obtained a high speed camera (they're not too expensive) and run these same tests on your own setup. I would appreciate anyone who did that actually. Unlike CPS3 and OE which will be fixed, there may be more variability with computer and emulator setups. It would be nice to find out what other people are seeing.

    The thread is meant to give us reasonably accurate and reproducible answers on how much input lag and game speed differ from platform to platform. So any claims we make in this thread should be backed up by evidence. Without testing your setup yourself you really can't have any idea what difference any of those things would make.

    Only argue what we can test and prove basically. I hope you and anyone else interested will run similar tests on their own setups.
  • mpikkonmpikkon "S" class tier (OP) Joined: Posts: 355
    edited April 2014
    isotopez wrote: »
    Do you have a camera you could lag test your S tier computer with? That could settle something that keeps happening on these forums every few months.

    This is my "S" tier PC:

    Windows 7 Ultimate 64 Bit
    Monitor SyncMaster P2270HD (native 1920x1080p resolution)
    Intel Core i7-2600K
    ASUS Geforce GTX670-DC2T-2GD5, connected through HDMI, Full HD 1920x1080p resolution + PCI Express 3.0 enabled on Bios Settings
    Onboard VIA Sound Chipset
    16 GB RAM DDR-3 Corsair 1600Mhz (Dual Channel 2x8, XMP profile enabled)
    PSU 775w Thermaltake
    Motherboard GA-Z77M-D3H with updated latest BIOS version
    Latest Drivers, directX, windows 7 updates all installed.
    No anti virus running on gaming.

    I can play almost any 3D game on High settings on Full HD resolution.
    I can record without dropping any frame at all (FRAPS).
    I can enjoy Street Fighter III 3rd Strike with any emulator I please. Way better than my PS2(bad port) and PS3 port(good port).
  • isotopezisotopez Joined: Posts: 125
    But what about the lag?
  • mpikkonmpikkon "S" class tier (OP) Joined: Posts: 355
    edited April 2014
    isotopez wrote: »
    But what about the lag?
    I run the emulator at full screen, 1920x1080p, Aero Off and proper settings.
    I do not feel any lag at all. Find a similar system and try on your own.

    Btw, I am pretty sure that the newest HD monitors perform even better than mine.
  • Lance3rdLance3rd Alaska 3rd Strike Joined: Posts: 986
    thanks @ESN! looking forward to it.

    I think it would be cool if as many people as possible ran similar tests. PC + emulator is the big question mark but it doesn't hurt to have more results for console either, especially considering our kind of sizable margin for error. maybe @isotopez could write up a quick guide on what you need and how to set it up to run your own version of this test.

    I understand if it's too expensive or too much trouble. just putting it out there that if anyone else wants to run equivalent tests and post their results, we will be glad to have them.
  • mpikkonmpikkon "S" class tier (OP) Joined: Posts: 355
    edited April 2014
    ESN wrote: »
    You may be right about everything you said but saying it won't prove anything.
    Read Lance3rd answer again...
    Being right and true, it is proof enough. ESN, you are being biased.
    ESN wrote: »
    I will test my pc setup (the same since ggpo came out) next week.
    Post all your system specs and emulator settings and do it.
    However, do not expect that your results apply 100% on millions builds out there.

    Lance3rd wrote: »
    I think it would be cool if as many people as possible ran similar tests. PC + emulator is the big question mark but it doesn't hurt to have more results for console either, especially considering our kind of sizable margin for error. maybe @isotopez could write up a quick guide on what you need and how to set it up to run your own version of this test.

    I understand if it's too expensive or too much trouble. just putting it out there that if anyone else wants to run equivalent tests and post their results, we will be glad to have them.

    If anything can do it right, that is a PC system.
  • yomipoweryomipower not a legendary game designer Joined: Posts: 1,167
    I run my 32mb Radeon 7500 laptop on a Full HD LCD with it's max resolution via VGA and it doesn't lag at all, now what bitch?
    Yomi, which is the Japanese word for the underworld. Also a brand of vitamins for children.
  • ryan.ryan. Joined: Posts: 1,918
    Pc sux
  • mpikkonmpikkon "S" class tier (OP) Joined: Posts: 355
    edited April 2014
    ryan. wrote: »
    Pc sux
    Consoles are PC wannabes. They just copy their technology/software. That is the truth. They exist and evolve thanks to PC technology.
    I personally find consoles a little immature for my age. They are practical, when you want to participate/organize a local tournament. That is all. That is subjective, as well.
    ryan. wrote: »
    Any low badget Pc build sux
    Fixed
  • Lance3rdLance3rd Alaska 3rd Strike Joined: Posts: 986
    edited April 2014
    we'll get started with the speed tests this weekend.
  • mpikkonmpikkon "S" class tier (OP) Joined: Posts: 355
    Lance3rd wrote: »
    most people are not going to agree with your position, because that's not how video/audio/input latency works as far as it is currently understood. if you feel everyone is wrong, it is up to you to run the tests yourself and prove that we are wrong. if you have no interest in doing that there's really no point to you posting in this thread.
    Oh, and why trust few ppl who dislike PCs and refuse to post their system specs? Ppl who had bashed emulators and their service in the commnity non-stop in the past.
    Am I right, IglooBob?

    By all means, everyone do your research on delay/speed on your PC build. Just be unbiased and honest on your work.
    That's all I ask.
  • Lance3rdLance3rd Alaska 3rd Strike Joined: Posts: 986
    we've been unbiased and pretty open about how we test this stuff throughout. if anyone suspects we're making stuff up or that we have some kind of bias, all I can really say is they should run the same tests themselves and see what results they get.

    we're open to stuff that could potentially affect the lag and are willing to test it. we still plan on testing in XP after, we still plan on testing GroovyMAME, and if anyone points out anything else, we'll test if it's possible. we made it a point to find out what everyone uses as their standard FBA setup to make sure we're looking at what everyone else is looking at. I think we've been pretty fair to every platform. we're just not going to start testing every possible combination of PC hardware. we don't have the time or the resources to do that. it also is unlikely to make a difference. considering that ShmupMAME is already very close to real arcade, I kinda doubt our hardware setup is a problem (besides the monitor which as isotopez mentioned is slightly laggy).

    I think there's not much to say besides that. everyone will be happy to look at your results if you want to test your own setup, but I don't see much point in arguing about it if you don't do that. all that can ever come to is your assumptions versus someone else's assumptions.
  • ryan.ryan. Joined: Posts: 1,918
    How much does a s tier pc cost for playing 3rd Strike?

    Also mpikkon, how much time and experience do you have with cps3?
  • mpikkonmpikkon "S" class tier (OP) Joined: Posts: 355
    ryan. wrote: »
    How much does a s tier pc cost for playing 3rd Strike?
    If you don't pay money, you will see no performance/stability nor longevity. My build suits my needs for 5 years at least. See, it's an investment, not just a game machine.
    ryan. wrote: »
    Also mpikkon, how much time and experience do you have with cps3?
    Enough time and experience to contribute the best 3s Yun Tutorial on the web, my 4 years old work.
  • ryan.ryan. Joined: Posts: 1,918
    edited April 2014
    I was just wondering the price. If you're saying 3rd Strike is perfect emulated but only if you spend $1000+ then there's really no point to discuss it. I can just buy a cps3 myself.

    Also, your tutorial is impressive. I can tell you put in a lot of time and effort. Good job buddy. But I was asking if you actually have hands on experience with cps3 3rd Strike. If you only have limited time then it's hard to take your word when you say emulated 3rd Strike is good.
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