3rd Strike General Discussion Thread

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  • NAPNAP Joined: Posts: 1,812
    Honestly I never played enough SF4 to know much about it. It just never felt right to me. What I love about ST and 3S is their snappy feel. The controls are so tight that movement alone is satisfying. SF4 does not have that. It feels like playing SF under water. Just couldn't ever get into it.
  • AlexisdabombAlexisdabomb Joined: Posts: 2,528
    Tebbo wrote: »
    riffing off what everdred was saying,

    sf4 is very deterministic. from the char select screen it begins. then the ultra selection.
    then in an actual match it's all about how this leads into this which is guaranteed. it's boring.

    people who know 4 the most now think that everything needs to be a guarantee or it's awful. everything has to be safe or how can you possibly attack? how are throws useful if you can just techroll? how do you approach someone without some kind of gimmick, movement special, divekick, etc.?

    you mean i need to just walk into their space without frame advantage?!!?!? terrifying!

    it's not that it's easy or simple or anything like that. people who are good at sf4 are smart.
    it just lacks creativity. matches are one dimensional and obvious.

    I wish I could click on Agree and LOL on this post.
    "I wish someone would flex in front of the camera and say I'm awesome....

    ;_; "

    Dander.
  • iWinWeDateiWinWeDate Whiff punish everything. Joined: Posts: 298
    1- Is there no 100% answer for jump ins in 3s? jumping should always be a risk imo.

    2- What are the benefits of walking in and out of a certain range, in other words baiting something, if you are not going to punish it?I see a lot of this- P1 baits an attack p2 bites p1 does nothing. Is it because they dont have the reactions?

    3-How do you determine what normals are good? I've heard kens s.hk is solid in 3s but in sf4 its a bad normal despite having better frame data than 3s.

    4- Its impossible to whiff punish necros long range normals right? Is Spacing still important in a mu like this?
    Thanks guys.
  • NaerasNaeras Terribad Joined: Posts: 3,403
    edited September 2015
    1- Is there no 100% answer for jump ins in 3s? jumping should always be a risk imo.
    It's still a risk to jump, mainly because you've locked your movement and attack options for a solid second. There is a "will he parry or not"-mindgame, but that becomes a lot less scary when the grounded player also starts incorporating parries against jumps, or other less conventional AA-options. One really fun one is dashing under people while they're mid-air and punish them on landing.
    The AA-game in 3S is different from other SF-games, but jumping still carries the same inherent weaknesses in this game. I made a list of the AA options I commonly use in the FAQ-thread (which is where this should have been posted imo), go check that.
    2- What are the benefits of walking in and out of a certain range, in other words baiting something, if you are not going to punish it?I see a lot of this- P1 baits an attack p2 bites p1 does nothing. Is it because they dont have the reactions?
    Likely they were either not expecting a normal at all, or they were expecting a different normal, or just feeling out the waters for the habits of the other player. Could be several reasons.
    3-How do you determine what normals are good? I've heard kens s.hk is solid in 3s but in sf4 its a bad normal despite having better frame data than 3s.
    It's a combination of hitboxes, startup, active frames, recovery, and which directions the move can be parried. Also, of course, damage and combo options. There's really no good way to determine other than with experience, preferably against someone that knows how to deal with said normals. Also, test them in training mode to find out how to both use them properly and how to beat them.
    In SF4, far HK gets destroyed by focus attacks, has fewer active frames than the 3S version iirc, shorter range, and is generally outclassed by Ken's godly stepkick. It can be used to stuff certain things in SF4, but that's about it. Also, in 3S, it's a poke with very good range that has to be parried high, which makes it nice to mix in with his sweep from max range, and the high amount of active frames makes it a good long-range meaty.
    4- Its impossible to whiff punish necros long range normals right? Is Spacing still important in a mu like this?
    Sweeping the recovery of something like c.MK or c.HK is easy if they whiff, imo. I don't have much experience against Necro players, but in the few matches I have played I pretty much won on doing just that.
    Stuff like s.HP and the like can't be swept, but if spaced properly you should be able to beat them out with stuff like s.HP, c.MP and the like. Go test it in training mode.
  • iWinWeDateiWinWeDate Whiff punish everything. Joined: Posts: 298
    Thanks bro^ In training now cant whiff punish his cr.mk im playing on ps2 btw does that make a difference?
  • DanderDander BANNED Joined: Posts: 7,227
    Whiff punishes on necro are a lot like whiff punishes against sim. Crouching fierce xx fireball or something. You can actually use the cr. fierce as counter poke or whiff punish.
    8tROOXi.png
  • NaerasNaeras Terribad Joined: Posts: 3,403
    edited September 2015
    ..never mind the comments about Necro normals, apparently I remembered completely wrong. I went ahead and tested it in training mode, and I couldn't punish them on whiff either. Beating them on startup was pretty reliable though, so it was probably that I was doing.

    Someone with more experience on that matchup can probably answer it better than me.
  • DanderDander BANNED Joined: Posts: 7,227
    edited September 2015
    I'll try...
    iWinWeDate wrote: »
    1- Is there no 100% answer for jump ins in 3s? jumping should always be a risk imo.
    There might be but there's no saying you'll pull it off 100% of the time. I haven't taken to calling the timings one name over another because the real reason it's possible is that simple deduction can cut the air frames into "vivisections" as Rowan AKA MrNoMoreFunland calls it. What you can do is cover your air time with parries, I believe you get something like 3 cuts per jump and then you can do your normals early so that they finish start up at the moment of impact, a bit before the moment or a bit after moment of impact. What you get out of the three situations is:
    1. Moment of ) You get the standard hit with physical advantage. This means that the hit registers positive for you and you have the means to do something with a slight bit more advantage over your opponents options. This means your grab will start in their recovery and you will have positive advantage even in a tech grab situation. You can start up an attack and stuff out their grab. You can move a frame or two after landing and before their action. There are a few more and this is best learned in practice.
    2. A bit before ) You get a non-physical advantage, maybe. What this means is that you do your normal just before your sprite ever reaches their sprite, on screen, and your attack lands on them as opposed to a seamed animation that looks the way a regular kick should. The reason it's a non-physical advantage is that a replay of the situation might not show you as being the one carrying the advantage but your opponent's likeliness to fumble about after you got an awkward hit on them is high enough that you could consider the situation to now be in your favor since you are more aware of what is actually happening as opposed to the opponent whose plans have now been offset a bit and possibly changed due to this offset.
    Back to the air kick, it's a bit early, the way the air mk cross up works, but on either side of the opponent. A good example of this is jump in early mk. You jump in at them and cover your ass with a parry and then notice you might get parried because their actions seem to line up with yours, or just aren't obvious, and so probably hidden within your own. What this does is it makes their parry attempt a walk forward and instead of parrying, they find themselves walking into your hitbox.
    3. A bit after ) This is how you get the meaty combos to work out. You do a real deep jump in and hit with some super heavy attack or a quick one in order to make sure your air attack combos perfectly. The quick attack might require something like short short as a follow up and the heavy might give you enough time to start up a a grab bait situation or even a air heavy to ground heavy combo. The grab bait might work as such: You jump in and cover your ass with parries, done so well you manage to start up your Roundhouse jump in at the top of their sprite. They parried your heavy but due to the start up of the heavy, miss the parry window by a frame or two. They eat the heavy jump in and or manage to block it. You have now landed with an abundance of positive frames to their hit frames or their block frames, which is enough time for you to set up another combo or a frame trap situation, maybe another jump in, a grab situation, some difficult option select, etc.
    iWinWeDate wrote: »
    2- What are the benefits of walking in and out of a certain range, in other words baiting something, if you are not going to punish it?I see a lot of this- P1 baits an attack p2 bites p1 does nothing. Is it because they dont have the reactions?
    It's probably to gauge the opponent's response in regards to your anticipation. This might seem like an elitist example but I always ask myself, "are they really going to play the low forward game?" If they do, I start to walk into range and doing thing like UOH or jump in. It's my scrub check. The benefits of this could be that you have created a fork in their gameplan that digresses from a more secure point, yours, and in turn gives you advantage through a means of quicker options or it could help in the sense that you "can see through the static" and are able to tack on an extra option to their set of possible options which would allow you to prepare for yet another of their approaches if you hadn't already considered that. For example, if you're up close and want to play against his cancellable low mk, you would walk up to within his low mk range, block low and then UOH to block an immediate low and hop over a delayed one. If he were to do standing fierce against your walk up low block, you can now deduce the possible third option to be cr. mp because he's telegraphed a floor and a ceiling and left the middle a little too open for him to attempt something slow like low forward this time around, has been shown his aloof standing fierce won't work and that you are stuffing that empty space rahter casually, which is to say you aren't commited to any heavy handed approach at "dealing damage". The agile fox dies in a spray of shotgun fire. Bad comparison probably, maybe just lacking in tact, but it fits.
    iWinWeDate wrote: »
    3-How do you determine what normals are good? I've heard kens s.hk is solid in 3s but in sf4 its a bad normal despite having better frame data than 3s.
    I don't know how to say that any one normal is better than another. I like to think each normal has a special place in its design that is unbeatable in that one respect. That is to say things like, if an attempt is made to intercept Cr. MP and hasn't managed to activate by the third frame, it will lose. If something attempts to intercept a close jab at the third frame, it will lose. Things like that. Having said that, there is no linear approach in 3s so things like better don't happen if not but once a match. The frame data, I think, helps you formulate an approximal system but will not feed you starting points though it does provide frames and other invariable attributes. The thing is that you can never truly say your opponent will do it any one way, all the time, for the sake of this or that. 3s is too organic for that. You could at best deduce a low, mid or high after a sequence or string of attacks but that will only throw you into another approximation of sorts.

    I think why people tell you that Ken's St. Roundhouse is solid is due to the fact that his hurtbox on that only flashes at the tip of the attack and is mostly found between his knee and the rest of his body. This means that if done at the right distance, it will only be beat by attacks with invincibility in the reaching area of the sprite or by well timed and quick little pokes, which still won't put you in a bad position unless you somehow managed to miss the fact that they were playing a low and heavy position to manage a cr. rh or cr. mk on you.
    iWinWeDate wrote: »
    4- Its impossible to whiff punish necros long range normals right? Is Spacing still important in a mu like this?
    Thanks guys.
    I don't think it's impossible but I could just be talking about of my theory ass. I use Ken cr fierce against his far fierce and rh, but have rarely managed to hit him out of his standing mk. Standing strong is a tough beat, as are back mk and down back hp. You could whiff punish those normals but they likely have like 1 or 2 frames of overlap with any one common normal and whiff punishing with jabs just seems like a waste of time.
    Spacing is important in a match like that in that it keeps him from pulling off little match forks like dive kick to either grab or spinning lariat mix ups but they aren't dire straits. Necro is slow enough that not getting carried away by Necros dramatic movements is enough for you to avoid anything but strict 50/50 mix ups with 50/50 potential forks. Things like dive kick to grab/lariat which can then be turned into
    grab -> oki/air reset -> oki/high+low
    or
    lariat -> oki/air reset-> high+low/grab/dive kick/pacing/pokes/etc.

    Ultimately the highest regard you want to give necro in a match up like this is the extent of his punish and the willingness to keep the fight up close where his normals are not so good but his mix up potential is high. This is because if his punish is nothing more than his mix up, you can force the fight that way and play it off as if you are getting poked on accident and "falling right into his trap" where you just abuse quick start up/high invincibility frames. If it's where his normals aren't good, you can just abuse that ST counter point, where they use something like a special and then try to poke into the engagement. Here you can just spot in uppercuts or stupid jump in games like the ones I mentioned earlier in the post.



    Hope some of that helped.

    Let me know if something doesn't make sense. I started to move stuff out of my room mid post and came back not knowing where I was.
    Post edited by Dander on
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  • DanderDander BANNED Joined: Posts: 7,227
    It's very difficult to whiff punish a Necro cr. mk on pure reaction. There has to be some strict anticipation, and in that case you can probably just jump in.
    8tROOXi.png
  • iWinWeDateiWinWeDate Whiff punish everything. Joined: Posts: 298
    Its all good, thanks for the help man.
  • WTF-AKUMA-HAXWTF-AKUMA-HAX DBGT non canon > maxxvatar OVA Joined: Posts: 17,940
    NAP wrote: »
    Honestly I never played enough SF4 to know much about it. It just never felt right to me. What I love about ST and 3S is their snappy feel. The controls are so tight that movement alone is satisfying. SF4 does not have that. It feels like playing SF under water. Just couldn't ever get into it.
    Ryu feels like he has no weight or presence in that game

    So I just picked whoever looked like they were supposed to be jumping around all over the place, air to air stupid stuff, and had fast walkspeed, with finally some okay throw(+kara) range, to try for a tick-> dash throw and died

    NYEEUU NYYEU NYEEENEYEENEYE NEENEENYE NYEEEYEYEY <<- the menu theme song
    1999 = "A Game with Parries isn't Street Fighter"
    2016 = "Releasing a Complete Game isn't Street Fighter"
    You wouldn't even understand if I told you.
    People will forget what you said.
    People will forget what you did.
    But, people will never forget how you made them feel.

  • TebboTebbo Play. Joined: Posts: 5,704
    It's not really a game of 'this normal is good, this isn't.
    You just have to look at how the normal hits and is it high/low parryable and obviously if it can cancel.
    That they have different timing and spacing and high/low is what makes them all kinda viable. You won't see Ken using too much f.mk mostly because of the lack of pushback and that it's ALSO negative so it can be dangerous against some characters. Otherwise it's all game really even f.hk which you won't see often just because you need to do the non-kick version enough to keep someone unsure what you're doing since it's not exactly fast. Those two are just more specific and that's what makes them challenging to use well. That and even if they work they don't become much more. But even moves like those which don't lead into more when you succeed create more mental room for you to work with to open your opponent up. You are threatening different spaces and timings and often all it takes is putting that in someones head to make them play a little different.

    A large part of things is just being able to keep your opponent unsure what you're going to do. If you can do that you win pretty much.
    Play more.
  • Ryu24Ryu24 Retired 3S Titan Joined: Posts: 1,423
    My friend Clackman is mad

  • IglooBobIglooBob Bob the builder Joined: Posts: 4,039
    edited September 2015
    Ryu24 wrote: »
    My friend Clackman is mad

    If Clackman comes to Next Level I request a Clakman kumite vs NY's finest.
    iWinWeDate wrote: »
    1- Is there no 100% answer for jump ins in 3s? jumping should always be a risk imo.

    there's nothing that's a guaranteed anti air, but there's a lot of possible options you can choose between.

    1) uppercut like in other SF games (it helps if you mix up the timing)
    2) normals (which you can cancel into a special if it gets parried). sometimes you can hit a normal where even if they parry it they don't get anything and you're still safe.
    3) Parry, or parry + normal at the same time. an easy example is Chun parry + roundhouse, but there are plenty of others
    4) walk back (you can walk back low forward if they commit to an attack, or you can walk back and then walk up right after they land)
    5) dash under their jump
    6) jump back with a normal (like Ken jump back roundhouse)
    7) crouch so that a jump in attack whiffs
    8) mash jab (this is usually just useful vs empty jump parry monsters and I'm not convinced it's a good idea a lot of the time)
    9) just block

    which one you should pick depends on the matchup, your opponent's tendencies, and the risk vs reward of the possible outcomes. so for instance, say you're Ken vs a jumping in Dudley. if he lands a jump in he can take a bunch of your life and get a knockdown. in this situation mashing jab should not be on the table because the risk vs reward is heavily lopsided in his favor. that one's pretty obvious, but every decision can be broken down like this.

    basically every choice has positives and negatives. walk back gives up space but is low risk besides that. anti air with a normal or special risks getting parried. blocking means you could eat the mixup if you guess wrong after. you just need to think about what makes sense, and if you lose in a specific jump in situation, watch the replay and think about the risk vs reward of that situation and the things you could've done instead to be safer or get better return off your guess.

    I think dashing under is a good choice in a lot of situations if you can see the jump in. and sometimes you just need to block.

    Jumping always carries risk in 3s, it's just not as straightforward as in other SF games.
    Post edited by IglooBob on
  • AlexisdabombAlexisdabomb Joined: Posts: 2,528
    edited September 2015
    The irony is Clackman doesn't like Low Tier God. Now, you can say he doesn't like him because of his attitude. But I make you a bet that they see eye to eye on a couple of scrub quote-y things.

    I don't care for shoto's too much either but instead of complaining I stomp them.
    Post edited by Alexisdabomb on
    "I wish someone would flex in front of the camera and say I'm awesome....

    ;_; "

    Dander.
  • Ryu24Ryu24 Retired 3S Titan Joined: Posts: 1,423
    I actually enjoy Clackman sometimes. The stuff he says really cracks me up.
    Like at :22 to :30, couldn't help but laugh.
  • Ryu24Ryu24 Retired 3S Titan Joined: Posts: 1,423
    When are you coming by again Lance? Feel like we need another kumite for you after you level up some more.
    Maybe even a Fight Card match.
  • iWinWeDateiWinWeDate Whiff punish everything. Joined: Posts: 298
    Clackman is garbage.
  • TebboTebbo Play. Joined: Posts: 5,704
    Who is clackman?
    Another OE only person?
    Play more.
  • AlexisdabombAlexisdabomb Joined: Posts: 2,528
    Tebbo wrote: »
    Who is clackman?
    Another OE only person?

    Yep. Poor bastard's on PSN.
    "I wish someone would flex in front of the camera and say I'm awesome....

    ;_; "

    Dander.
  • IglooBobIglooBob Bob the builder Joined: Posts: 4,039
    Ryu24 wrote: »
    When are you coming by again Lance? Feel like we need another kumite for you after you level up some more.
    Maybe even a Fight Card match.

    Not sure. I'd like to go to Defend the North and NEC, then Coop in January but those will all depend on whether I can get time off from work. I def wanna come back.
    Tebbo wrote: »
    Who is clackman?
    Another OE only person?

    He's a funny character from PSN. Q player. He's not famous for his level of play but for his angry rants about shotos, tier whores, and the various people from PSN he hates. Unfortunately his youtube account with most of his angry rants has been terminated, and it has left a hole in my heart.
  • NaerasNaeras Terribad Joined: Posts: 3,403
    IglooBob wrote: »
    He's a funny character from PSN. Q player. He's not famous for his level of play but for his angry rants about shotos, tier whores, and the various people from PSN he hates. Unfortunately his youtube account with most of his angry rants has been terminated, and it has left a hole in my heart.
    Wait, is this the guy who went all "HOLD DAT, BITCH" when he hit someone with an empty jump SA2?
  • ChadChad Joined: Posts: 1,291
    Surely he can't be the only one.
  • RichterRichter ~~~00~~~ Joined: Posts: 1,878
    edited September 2015
    Anybody going to Defend the North? I'm assuming all the NYC dudes will be there. Just wondering if it would be worth it to vacation in NYC for a week and play in a good sized 3S tourney. Maybe I should stay unemployed so I have an excuse to go lol.

    Is Alex's Second Impact stage based on a real location in Greenwich Village? Would definitely love to check it out if that is true.
    Post edited by Richter on
    coffee.gifapplaud.gifkarate.gifthumbsup.gifwtf.gifpray.gifsmokin.gifparty.gifcool2.gifchinasmile.gifnunchuck.gifsad.gifeek.pngmad.pngcybot.gif
  • Ryu24Ryu24 Retired 3S Titan Joined: Posts: 1,423
    Damn I was wondering what happened to his main channel. I remember hearing Low Tier God flagged his stuff and he made a video about it a few days ago. Maybe thats why it got taken down. Kinda funny his channel was removed but LTG stays.

    You both should come to Defend the North. One of the last 3s tourneys in NY.
  • Ryu24Ryu24 Retired 3S Titan Joined: Posts: 1,423
    How do you do that combo at :13?
  • ESNESN 最初はぐう... Joined: Posts: 1,347
    edited March 2016
    back (charge), forward, back (charge) + MP, forward + MP
    (i guess it's MP for both, but i can't test now)
    Post edited by ESN on
  • DuralathDuralath 3S Gatekeeper Joined: Posts: 1,498 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Lol Clackman aka Pai-Zuri365. Dodges me 95% of the time. And if I tick throw him he ragequits because I'm "cheating" by using a "frame trap". Never mind the fact that his sorry ass made a "credibility video" about his credentials in the FGC.

    The only thing that he got right is what his name references. Other than that, I strongly request someone blowing his shit up if he ever shows at an east coast tourney. That is if I don't do it first down the road.
    CFN: Duralath/ServantArcher FightCade: ServantArcher/Kyros Valchion
    3rd Strike: Alex/Makoto/Yun
    Street Fighter V:: Karin/Alex
    twitch.tv/Duralath
    Shoot to thrill.
  • AlexisdabombAlexisdabomb Joined: Posts: 2,528
    Rictorxix wrote: »

    Is Alex's Second Impact stage based on a real location in Greenwich Village? Would definitely love to check it out if that is true.

    No. It does resemble Greenwich but it's not a specific location.
    "I wish someone would flex in front of the camera and say I'm awesome....

    ;_; "

    Dander.
  • RichterRichter ~~~00~~~ Joined: Posts: 1,878
    So I read Defend the North will be on Supergun, is that correct? If so, will sticks be provided? I plan on traveling overseas after that so I'd rather not pack a bulky arcade stick I won't be using.
    coffee.gifapplaud.gifkarate.gifthumbsup.gifwtf.gifpray.gifsmokin.gifparty.gifcool2.gifchinasmile.gifnunchuck.gifsad.gifeek.pngmad.pngcybot.gif
  • Ryu24Ryu24 Retired 3S Titan Joined: Posts: 1,423
    Good question. Usually they supply the sticks or you can ask someone to borrow their stick. It's a major after all so I'm sure there's plenty.
  • Ryu24Ryu24 Retired 3S Titan Joined: Posts: 1,423
    Looks like Clackman is backing out now after agreeing to our MM at NL.

    "We do this online or not at all." :s
  • AlexisdabombAlexisdabomb Joined: Posts: 2,528
    The Artayes argument.
    "I wish someone would flex in front of the camera and say I'm awesome....

    ;_; "

    Dander.
  • TebboTebbo Play. Joined: Posts: 5,704
    Doesn't want to be jizzolated.
    Play more.
  • Ryu24Ryu24 Retired 3S Titan Joined: Posts: 1,423
    He doesn't want a taste of my bananaQ
  • IbokiIboki Joined: Posts: 206
    Why tf would you choose to play PSN over offline. Gross
  • Ryu24Ryu24 Retired 3S Titan Joined: Posts: 1,423
    He wants paypal to be the form of transaction.
  • DanderDander BANNED Joined: Posts: 7,227
    It IS New York, right? I got jumped there for 40 dollars.
    8tROOXi.png
  • DuralathDuralath 3S Gatekeeper Joined: Posts: 1,498 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Because he's a fucking scrub. Pro tip: he doesn't know what to do against tick throw unless you do it a million times to him.
    CFN: Duralath/ServantArcher FightCade: ServantArcher/Kyros Valchion
    3rd Strike: Alex/Makoto/Yun
    Street Fighter V:: Karin/Alex
    twitch.tv/Duralath
    Shoot to thrill.
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 56,857 mod
    Just here to say SFIV is bad, SFV looks better and I should play more 3S. If some of you guys are going to NEC I'll see you guys there.

    Ain't nothin, Capcom's ruthless still producin.  Cut em a check or find yoself toothless.  Keep it shill with no confusin.  Niggas say I'm shill...they ain't hard I can prove it YEEEAH


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