USF4 Tier List Thread (updated October 2015)

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  • otoriotori RTSD Joined: Posts: 6,098
    I dunno it's a good shift from the usual circlejerk. I enjoy Tali's posts, he just has trouble coming to terms with different viewpoints.

    Ded gaem anywayz.
  • HighlandfireballHighlandfireball Are you ready for a war? Joined: Posts: 7,429
    Meanwhile Dave over at the Tali T-1000 android factory -

    " Jim, he's fucked it again, lasted 60 posts this time, fire another one up for deployment, we Gota find some way of keeping him stable"

    What the hell are you even talking about?

    High level mind games. A tier - if you believe in that sort of thing.
  • TheFreshPrinceTheFreshPrince Sold so many chickens think I work for Kroger Joined: Posts: 3,725
    You can always tell its tali, because he'll drop little bits of actually useful information, but it's accompanied by a shitload of ignorance and stupidity.
    You just can't handle the fresh prince.

    R.I.P. Uncle Phil.
  • MachoRhombusMachoRhombus Joined: Posts: 2,744
    ilitirit wrote: »
    The last few pages of this thread gave me cancer.

    Made me remember the good old Akuma days.
    CFN ID - PenguinShivers

    MJ|Shivers.
  • Sephiroth73003Sephiroth73003 Joined: Posts: 4,222
    ilitirit wrote: »
    The last few pages of this thread gave me cancer.

    But ... But ... But .... Dhalsim vs Yun is like a 5-5 everyone is just playing it wrong!
    SF3: Makoto and Ken
  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    edited December 2015
    People are entitled to have their opinions and there is no reason to echo chamber them if they don't align with yours as long as you can provide a coherent debate about it that also allows admitting being wrong, or if not "wrong" (as it may be a difference in opinion rather than a fact) simply being willing to discuss an idea civilly and listen rather than entirely settle on your view before engaging others. This isn't to say you have to not believe your own views wholeheartedly but you should at least take the time to consider others.

    Ultimately a debate shouldn't be an attempt to rack up points and declare a winner but rather to explore the ideas and view points from multiple angles.

    Sadly that is an idealistic view that no one, not even myself despite requesting it, typically follows as well as they should. Some make little attempt to do so at all, and that is why I have them on ignore usually.
    Post edited by Eternal on
    http://ink-gaming.com/ono/doku.php The new home of the Ono Tool official wiki.
  • Toxic_BeautyToxic_Beauty Joined: Posts: 34
    Cipher wrote: »
    The Point of some Tierlist is also the personal opinion.
    Last time someone asked Daigo about Tiers he listed Cammy still top 5, no one else does this right now, because we have so many strong players with different strong characters now.

    Cammy is still strong and can do what she did in AE2012.

    Seth is still a strong character,even after all these nerfs.

    E.Ryu is a good character, but has very little health.

    Elena might be good, but I think people just haven't figured out how to shut her down.

    Rolento has a awesome offence,ones he gets knocked down he is basicly free.

    In Ultra has it comes a lot more down to the Player and the MU.
    Good player make worse characters look Top Tier, best example is Bonchan.
    Or Luffy with Rose, Rose is realy good in Ultra, but still struggels against everything that can just stay in her face and chase her down the whole time.

    Sometimes Tierlists are just a opinion and sometimes they're a fact.
    I think every tierlist in Ultra is just a opinion,otherwise we have ~22 characters in the top 10.

    Tier lists are never fact. Take a look at ST, almost every year the top players sit down and do a comprehensive review of all the match ups and modify the tier lists if they feel things have changed. We're talking about a game that's decades old, extremely simplistic and straight forward and not nearly as many characters as any other street fighter after it. And yet almost every year or two the tier list changes, whether it be extremely minor or even major changes. Chun and DJ have gone from top tier to high tier, cammy has gone from complete ass to mid tier. Thawk has gone from worst character to best character etc etc. Tier lists are not facts at all and just opinions, and SRK, eventhubs, capcomunity, twitter and all these open forums that give people a voice have based their tier lists opinions solely on characters that are winning in tournaments or that Japanese players say who they think top 5 is and it's pretty pathetic. My favorite was back when Nemo started to blow up a bit during the beginning of usf4 because daigo was his training partner and Nemo had the most BP in the arcades as well as his amazing offensive play with rolento. He immediately used that buzz to say that poison was a top 5 character (specifically 4th I think), and tons of people blindly just parroted that statement, the amount of poisons online went up and I even seen some players at locals start trying to use her just because a Japanese player said top 5. What ever ended up with that hype? Almost never see her online being played well, don't see her at the locals anymore and at the high level, she's a pocket character at best and has had less success out of all 5 new characters and arguably the worst of the 5

    How come Poison is barely seen online anymore? What happened?

    I come across a lot of people using Decapre nowadays.
  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    edited December 2015
    Cipher wrote: »
    The Point of some Tierlist is also the personal opinion.
    Last time someone asked Daigo about Tiers he listed Cammy still top 5, no one else does this right now, because we have so many strong players with different strong characters now.

    Cammy is still strong and can do what she did in AE2012.

    Seth is still a strong character,even after all these nerfs.

    E.Ryu is a good character, but has very little health.

    Elena might be good, but I think people just haven't figured out how to shut her down.

    Rolento has a awesome offence,ones he gets knocked down he is basicly free.

    In Ultra has it comes a lot more down to the Player and the MU.
    Good player make worse characters look Top Tier, best example is Bonchan.
    Or Luffy with Rose, Rose is realy good in Ultra, but still struggels against everything that can just stay in her face and chase her down the whole time.

    Sometimes Tierlists are just a opinion and sometimes they're a fact.
    I think every tierlist in Ultra is just a opinion,otherwise we have ~22 characters in the top 10.

    Tier lists are never fact. Take a look at ST, almost every year the top players sit down and do a comprehensive review of all the match ups and modify the tier lists if they feel things have changed. We're talking about a game that's decades old, extremely simplistic and straight forward and not nearly as many characters as any other street fighter after it. And yet almost every year or two the tier list changes, whether it be extremely minor or even major changes. Chun and DJ have gone from top tier to high tier, cammy has gone from complete ass to mid tier. Thawk has gone from worst character to best character etc etc. Tier lists are not facts at all and just opinions, and SRK, eventhubs, capcomunity, twitter and all these open forums that give people a voice have based their tier lists opinions solely on characters that are winning in tournaments or that Japanese players say who they think top 5 is and it's pretty pathetic. My favorite was back when Nemo started to blow up a bit during the beginning of usf4 because daigo was his training partner and Nemo had the most BP in the arcades as well as his amazing offensive play with rolento. He immediately used that buzz to say that poison was a top 5 character (specifically 4th I think), and tons of people blindly just parroted that statement, the amount of poisons online went up and I even seen some players at locals start trying to use her just because a Japanese player said top 5. What ever ended up with that hype? Almost never see her online being played well, don't see her at the locals anymore and at the high level, she's a pocket character at best and has had less success out of all 5 new characters and arguably the worst of the 5

    How come Poison is barely seen online anymore? What happened?

    I come across a lot of people using Decapre nowadays.

    Other characters got better, she got a couple of nerfs, her hurtbox was adjusted. A number of things, plus even at her height of tier listing she wasn't crazy popular. How many people who played Poison at a high level at any point can you think of?

    Meta shifts also affect things as well. To be clear I'm not specifically saying this applies to Poison. However a character could do well or even beat 2/3rds of the cast but doesn't do well vs any of the typically seen tournament / popular characters so you don't see people play them much or get very far. Likewise the reverse, a mediocre character could do very well vs the top tiers or characters commonly seen in tournaments despite his tier placement overall.
    http://ink-gaming.com/ono/doku.php The new home of the Ono Tool official wiki.
  • DelayedWakeUpDelayedWakeUp Realest Nigga Joined: Posts: 117
    Cipher wrote: »
    The Point of some Tierlist is also the personal opinion.
    Last time someone asked Daigo about Tiers he listed Cammy still top 5, no one else does this right now, because we have so many strong players with different strong characters now.

    Cammy is still strong and can do what she did in AE2012.

    Seth is still a strong character,even after all these nerfs.

    E.Ryu is a good character, but has very little health.

    Elena might be good, but I think people just haven't figured out how to shut her down.

    Rolento has a awesome offence,ones he gets knocked down he is basicly free.

    In Ultra has it comes a lot more down to the Player and the MU.
    Good player make worse characters look Top Tier, best example is Bonchan.
    Or Luffy with Rose, Rose is realy good in Ultra, but still struggels against everything that can just stay in her face and chase her down the whole time.

    Sometimes Tierlists are just a opinion and sometimes they're a fact.
    I think every tierlist in Ultra is just a opinion,otherwise we have ~22 characters in the top 10.

    Tier lists are never fact. Take a look at ST, almost every year the top players sit down and do a comprehensive review of all the match ups and modify the tier lists if they feel things have changed. We're talking about a game that's decades old, extremely simplistic and straight forward and not nearly as many characters as any other street fighter after it. And yet almost every year or two the tier list changes, whether it be extremely minor or even major changes. Chun and DJ have gone from top tier to high tier, cammy has gone from complete ass to mid tier. Thawk has gone from worst character to best character etc etc. Tier lists are not facts at all and just opinions, and SRK, eventhubs, capcomunity, twitter and all these open forums that give people a voice have based their tier lists opinions solely on characters that are winning in tournaments or that Japanese players say who they think top 5 is and it's pretty pathetic. My favorite was back when Nemo started to blow up a bit during the beginning of usf4 because daigo was his training partner and Nemo had the most BP in the arcades as well as his amazing offensive play with rolento. He immediately used that buzz to say that poison was a top 5 character (specifically 4th I think), and tons of people blindly just parroted that statement, the amount of poisons online went up and I even seen some players at locals start trying to use her just because a Japanese player said top 5. What ever ended up with that hype? Almost never see her online being played well, don't see her at the locals anymore and at the high level, she's a pocket character at best and has had less success out of all 5 new characters and arguably the worst of the 5

    How come Poison is barely seen online anymore? What happened?

    I come across a lot of people using Decapre nowadays.

    She's not the easiest character to just pick up and play and have fun with. She doesn't have the highest damage on her combos or is the execution easy when all her combos have one frame links in there somewhere. She walks very slow and her buttons start up slow and have very few active frames so you have to be much more precise with your spacing and inputs. She is played extremely lame with fireballs zoning to build meter and chip away at the opponent until she scores a knockdown and then with meter can run some tricky set play.

    People don't want to play that when out of the other 5, you can pick rolento and spam rolls and knives in a more cynical way.

    You can pick Hugo and do hype clap combos and kill anyone in 2 combos

    You could pick Elena and heal 3 times a round and have a hurtbox the size of a piece of paper.

    Or you can pick Decapre and mash hands and spam teleport feints and 50/50 smash's. Oh and don't forget all those wake up stings.
    d3v wrote: »
    Well the primary goal when you engage in a footsies battle is to out space your opponent to create an error so you can punish in a way that allows you to continue to press the advantage. Common examples are whiff punish into knockdown for follow up pressure or mix up, whiff punish into super for high damage while also potentially getting pressure and or mix up afterwards as well.
    False.

    LOL
  • CipherCipher Catchphraser Joined: Posts: 1,387
    How come Poison is barely seen online anymore? What happened?

    I come across a lot of people using Decapre nowadays.

    Online has it's own tierlist.
    It's online much harder to react to some things or punish. Delay,Lag are your worst MU's online.

    Poison actually has to use her head to win.
    Her H Aeolus Edge has very slow startup, what makes it harder to space right. Some chars can just react with a jump-in and Poisons anti-airing isn't the greatest,especialy against divekicks. Her standing hitbox is also gigantic.

    Online heroes are in general characters with either easy execution and gameplay or abuseable things most online players don't know how to deal with.
    I meet some days ago a Blanka with 4kPP and 23KBP. All he did was j.hk and Thunder.
    Now fear this glorious hero!!!!

    Street Fighter: Cammy,Rose,Decapre,Juni
    King of Fighters: Leona,Athena,Whip (Rugal as DLC!!!)
    I suck at Guilty Gear! : with Jam and Ramlethal (and obviously everone else too)
    Tekken: Jun,Yshimitsu
    Overwatch: Reinhardt, D.Va, Zarya, Winston, Soldier 76, Reaper, Zenyatta

    My SFV Cammyguide!
  • HighlandfireballHighlandfireball Are you ready for a war? Joined: Posts: 7,429
    edited December 2015
    Cipher wrote: »
    The Point of some Tierlist is also the personal opinion.
    Last time someone asked Daigo about Tiers he listed Cammy still top 5, no one else does this right now, because we have so many strong players with different strong characters now.

    Cammy is still strong and can do what she did in AE2012.

    Seth is still a strong character,even after all these nerfs.

    E.Ryu is a good character, but has very little health.

    Elena might be good, but I think people just haven't figured out how to shut her down.

    Rolento has a awesome offence,ones he gets knocked down he is basicly free.

    In Ultra has it comes a lot more down to the Player and the MU.
    Good player make worse characters look Top Tier, best example is Bonchan.
    Or Luffy with Rose, Rose is realy good in Ultra, but still struggels against everything that can just stay in her face and chase her down the whole time.

    Sometimes Tierlists are just a opinion and sometimes they're a fact.
    I think every tierlist in Ultra is just a opinion,otherwise we have ~22 characters in the top 10.

    Tier lists are never fact. Take a look at ST, almost every year the top players sit down and do a comprehensive review of all the match ups and modify the tier lists if they feel things have changed. We're talking about a game that's decades old, extremely simplistic and straight forward and not nearly as many characters as any other street fighter after it. And yet almost every year or two the tier list changes, whether it be extremely minor or even major changes. Chun and DJ have gone from top tier to high tier, cammy has gone from complete ass to mid tier. Thawk has gone from worst character to best character etc etc. Tier lists are not facts at all and just opinions, and SRK, eventhubs, capcomunity, twitter and all these open forums that give people a voice have based their tier lists opinions solely on characters that are winning in tournaments or that Japanese players say who they think top 5 is and it's pretty pathetic. My favorite was back when Nemo started to blow up a bit during the beginning of usf4 because daigo was his training partner and Nemo had the most BP in the arcades as well as his amazing offensive play with rolento. He immediately used that buzz to say that poison was a top 5 character (specifically 4th I think), and tons of people blindly just parroted that statement, the amount of poisons online went up and I even seen some players at locals start trying to use her just because a Japanese player said top 5. What ever ended up with that hype? Almost never see her online being played well, don't see her at the locals anymore and at the high level, she's a pocket character at best and has had less success out of all 5 new characters and arguably the worst of the 5

    How come Poison is barely seen online anymore? What happened?

    I come across a lot of people using Decapre nowadays.

    She's not the easiest character to just pick up and play and have fun with. She doesn't have the highest damage on her combos or is the execution easy when all her combos have one frame links in there somewhere. She walks very slow and her buttons start up slow and have very few active frames so you have to be much more precise with your spacing and inputs. She is played extremely lame with fireballs zoning to build meter and chip away at the opponent until she scores a knockdown and then with meter can run some tricky set play.

    People don't want to play that when out of the other 5, you can pick rolento and spam rolls and knives in a more cynical way.

    You can pick Hugo and do hype clap combos and kill anyone in 2 combos

    You could pick Elena and heal 3 times a round and have a hurtbox the size of a piece of paper.

    Or you can pick Decapre and mash hands and spam teleport feints and 50/50 smash's. Oh and don't forget all those wake up stings.

    Sounds like shes low tier, all the skills in the world wouldn't make her good.

    Post edited by Highlandfireball on
  • CipherCipher Catchphraser Joined: Posts: 1,387
    Thank you for your input everyone.

    If Poison is low tier, why is she ranked Top 5 on Eventhubs.com?

    Evethubs Tierlist = The chars people have either no plan how to deal with or don't want to play against.

    I would put Poison upper midtier or hightier. She is good smart played.
    Street Fighter: Cammy,Rose,Decapre,Juni
    King of Fighters: Leona,Athena,Whip (Rugal as DLC!!!)
    I suck at Guilty Gear! : with Jam and Ramlethal (and obviously everone else too)
    Tekken: Jun,Yshimitsu
    Overwatch: Reinhardt, D.Va, Zarya, Winston, Soldier 76, Reaper, Zenyatta

    My SFV Cammyguide!
  • jebopjebop Joined: Posts: 6,890
    Where's all the Hugo players at?
    Making man children cry on this forum is way too easy.
  • HighlandfireballHighlandfireball Are you ready for a war? Joined: Posts: 7,429
    jebop wrote: »
    Where's all the Hugo players at?

    Killing people in 2 combos. Anyone can do it.
  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    edited December 2015
    Asked Julio his thoughts on how to approach the Sim/Yun matchup and how he felt the match up was:
    julio wrote:
    dhalsim has to take advantage of using his head-drill and back fierce to counter yuns divekicks (ex up-blast too)
    dhalsims back roundhouse loses to divekick cause slow start up, back fierce is faster and is more active , good for divekick
    after that just control him on the ground, react to lunges with back rh and always be wary of his air game, its all reaction
    but being a yun player, yun destroys dhalsim if he does sneaky hard to see divekicks to get in

    That sounds kind of like "Sim has options, but he has to play extremely well with no mistakes and if Yun gets in then Sim is screwed. He can do stuff if he is on point though." to me at least.
    Post edited by Eternal on
    http://ink-gaming.com/ono/doku.php The new home of the Ono Tool official wiki.
  • HighlandfireballHighlandfireball Are you ready for a war? Joined: Posts: 7,429
    Eternal wrote: »
    Asked Julio his thoughts on how to approach the Sim/Yun matchup and how he felt the match up was:
    julio wrote:
    dhalsim has to take advantage of using his head-drill and back fierce to counter yuns divekicks (ex up-blast too)
    dhalsims back roundhouse loses to divekick cause slow start up, back fierce is faster and is more active , good for divekick
    after that just control him on the ground, react to lunges with back rh and always be wary of his air game, its all reaction
    but being a yun player, yun destroys dhalsim if he does sneaky hard to see divekicks to get in

    That sounds kind of like "Sim has options, but he has to play extremely well with no mistakes and if Yun gets in then Sim is screwed. He can do stuff if he is on point though." to me at least.

    Which is pretty much what everyone knew already. Play perfect = win. Goes for almost any bad match.

    Although certain characters are immune to mistakes, like Viper or Yun can take gambles almost for free considering the pay offs vs the risk.
  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    edited December 2015
    Eternal wrote: »
    Asked Julio his thoughts on how to approach the Sim/Yun matchup and how he felt the match up was:
    julio wrote:
    dhalsim has to take advantage of using his head-drill and back fierce to counter yuns divekicks (ex up-blast too)
    dhalsims back roundhouse loses to divekick cause slow start up, back fierce is faster and is more active , good for divekick
    after that just control him on the ground, react to lunges with back rh and always be wary of his air game, its all reaction
    but being a yun player, yun destroys dhalsim if he does sneaky hard to see divekicks to get in

    That sounds kind of like "Sim has options, but he has to play extremely well with no mistakes and if Yun gets in then Sim is screwed. He can do stuff if he is on point though." to me at least.

    Which is pretty much what everyone knew already. Play perfect = win. Goes for almost any bad match.

    Although certain characters are immune to mistakes, like Viper or Yun can take gambles almost for free considering the pay offs vs the risk.

    I think he is saying it's more winnable though than some say despite being very hard as Sim actually has options while many feel he doesn't. Some feel Sim just doesn't have any tools that are effective in the MU to start with. Julio seems to say that he can do stuff if you know what / where to do it, however the risk if you fail is very high.
    http://ink-gaming.com/ono/doku.php The new home of the Ono Tool official wiki.
  • HighlandfireballHighlandfireball Are you ready for a war? Joined: Posts: 7,429
    Eternal wrote: »
    Eternal wrote: »
    Asked Julio his thoughts on how to approach the Sim/Yun matchup and how he felt the match up was:
    julio wrote:
    dhalsim has to take advantage of using his head-drill and back fierce to counter yuns divekicks (ex up-blast too)
    dhalsims back roundhouse loses to divekick cause slow start up, back fierce is faster and is more active , good for divekick
    after that just control him on the ground, react to lunges with back rh and always be wary of his air game, its all reaction
    but being a yun player, yun destroys dhalsim if he does sneaky hard to see divekicks to get in

    That sounds kind of like "Sim has options, but he has to play extremely well with no mistakes and if Yun gets in then Sim is screwed. He can do stuff if he is on point though." to me at least.

    Which is pretty much what everyone knew already. Play perfect = win. Goes for almost any bad match.

    Although certain characters are immune to mistakes, like Viper or Yun can take gambles almost for free considering the pay offs vs the risk.

    I think he is saying it's more winnable though than some say despite being very hard as Sim actually has options while many feel he doesn't. Some feel Sim just doesn't have any tools that are effective in the MU to start with. Julio seems to say that he can do stuff if you know what / where to do it, however the risk if you fail is very high.

    It's still the definition of a bad match, things change of course, but it's going to take the Sim player more time ( years?) and more experience than the Yun player can even dream of. Experience only runs forwards in time.

    That's why I don't get when people ( that other guy) say " Oh look at this match where T Hawk beats Blanka! Proof! " When in reality it's probably taken thousands of game hours, training and experience to even get to that point in the match closer to equal and the concentration levels between players isn't even close. Hell you could go 2 editions of the game before figuring out counters.

    Imagine Fang from SF5 wins the next 3 tourneys because he's a horrid match up for Zangief, BUT in 3 years time with all the effort that players have put in , it ends up fine, more like a 5-5. Fang players still won the cash and took the prize because they're gameplay was easy to apply at that time and Gief players didn't have the luxury of high level technology developed through mass hours.

    Back in the day you had to figure shit out on the fly. It's so much easier now.
  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    edited December 2015
    Eternal wrote: »
    Eternal wrote: »
    Asked Julio his thoughts on how to approach the Sim/Yun matchup and how he felt the match up was:
    julio wrote:
    dhalsim has to take advantage of using his head-drill and back fierce to counter yuns divekicks (ex up-blast too)
    dhalsims back roundhouse loses to divekick cause slow start up, back fierce is faster and is more active , good for divekick
    after that just control him on the ground, react to lunges with back rh and always be wary of his air game, its all reaction
    but being a yun player, yun destroys dhalsim if he does sneaky hard to see divekicks to get in

    That sounds kind of like "Sim has options, but he has to play extremely well with no mistakes and if Yun gets in then Sim is screwed. He can do stuff if he is on point though." to me at least.

    Which is pretty much what everyone knew already. Play perfect = win. Goes for almost any bad match.

    Although certain characters are immune to mistakes, like Viper or Yun can take gambles almost for free considering the pay offs vs the risk.

    I think he is saying it's more winnable though than some say despite being very hard as Sim actually has options while many feel he doesn't. Some feel Sim just doesn't have any tools that are effective in the MU to start with. Julio seems to say that he can do stuff if you know what / where to do it, however the risk if you fail is very high.

    It's still the definition of a bad match, things change of course, but it's going to take the Sim player more time ( years?) and more experience than the Yun player can even dream of. Experience only runs forwards in time.

    That's why I don't get when people ( that other guy) say " Oh look at this match where T Hawk beats Blanka! Proof! " When in reality it's probably taken thousands of game hours, training and experience to even get to that point in the match closer to equal and the concentration levels between players isn't even close. Hell you could go 2 editions of the game before figuring out counters.

    Imagine Fang from SF5 wins the next 3 tourneys because he's a horrid match up for Zangief, BUT in 3 years time with all the effort that players have put in , it ends up fine, more like a 5-5. Fang players still won the cash and took the prize because they're gameplay was easy to apply at that time and Gief players didn't have the luxury of high level technology developed through mass hours.

    Back in the day you had to figure shit out on the fly. It's so much easier now.

    While I'm not agreeing with, or disagreeing with anyone on this I think that the discussion of tiers is viewing a MU between based on knowing what to do, when to do it, and how to execute it properly. Then you add in the players on top of that layer to see who sinks or swims to the potential values based on human abilities. Tiers change however as new techniques and options are explored as you noted. Tiers are measured based on the information and ideas on hand at the time they were created. What may seem like the ideal route could turn out to have a counter not yet found that someone could introduce by going against the accepted "correct" way to play the match, or simply introducing something new into it. In addition you can win matches by playing them "wrong" and putting the opponent on tilt. Playing to the player not the character.

    Showing players playing the match is a double edged sword. On one hand it's the only way to really show how a match would play out at all as it's the most true testing grounds, the real world. However it's also the least scientific as it adds so many additional variables that cannot be controlled. Different players add different styles, knowledge, reactions, habits, and more. In addition you have the Online vs Offline which is also split again with Side By Side vs Head To Head offline play which changes styles and abilities to react to things.

    I've talked with David about Hakan's potential and hes told me that despite how much he talks about it people just can't wrap their heads around it until he sits them down and shows them things in person. Not necessarily "beats them in a match" but actually shows them how these tools can be used in a match.

    Which brings me to the last thing, something I agree with you on, posting a match where a player wins/loses isn't entirely indicative of the matchup's difficulty. Not just because players abilities can change day to day and that add tons of variables to the equation. It's more important to look at where/when the players are interacting and how. Not the final result.

    It's kind of like when you hear "So and so got bodied, he lost 4-10 in a FT10" but then you go and see that every single match came down to the last round and often the rounds were ending where both players were on their last 10% health or something. Yeah, obviously the better player won, and consistently, but with all matches being extremely close you shouldn't really call it a bodying. Even if you only care just on who won or lost to make your point it can be presented in two very different ways to give two very different views.

    If you listed a match as being lost 4 to 10 it sounds pretty awful. He only won 28.5% of the matches played. However if you do it by rounds the number suddenly looks much more palatable. If every match went down to round 3 then 4 to 10 would be 18 to 24. That would be 42.8% of the rounds played. A huge jump just based on how the data is presented.

    Ultimately though I think that it's best to concentrate more on analyzing how the match up is being played, and where the losses/wins are occurring over concentrating strictly on the score. The final score IS important though.
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  • ThatJollyOlBastidThatJollyOlBastid soon Joined: Posts: 19,826
    ilitirit wrote: »
    The last few pages of this thread gave me cancer.

    nothings changed around here

    whats the current meta look like?
    "Seth is like McDonald's. You can learn to make the same burger in 2 days as the person who's worked there for 5 years" ~ Dogura
  • DelayedWakeUpDelayedWakeUp Realest Nigga Joined: Posts: 117
    Nah man yun vs dhalsim is easily 8-2 and nigh unwinnable and even if yun didn't have a dive kick he would still body dhalsim to the nigh unwinnable degree that he does with it.
    #nighunwinnable
    d3v wrote: »
    Well the primary goal when you engage in a footsies battle is to out space your opponent to create an error so you can punish in a way that allows you to continue to press the advantage. Common examples are whiff punish into knockdown for follow up pressure or mix up, whiff punish into super for high damage while also potentially getting pressure and or mix up afterwards as well.
    False.

    LOL
  • DelayedWakeUpDelayedWakeUp Realest Nigga Joined: Posts: 117
    S+ Comprehension
    A Evil Ryu/Ken
    B Ibuki/Elena

    New mechanics everyone hates - Delayed wake up.

    That was slick, I like that
    d3v wrote: »
    Well the primary goal when you engage in a footsies battle is to out space your opponent to create an error so you can punish in a way that allows you to continue to press the advantage. Common examples are whiff punish into knockdown for follow up pressure or mix up, whiff punish into super for high damage while also potentially getting pressure and or mix up afterwards as well.
    False.

    LOL
  • jebopjebop Joined: Posts: 6,890
    ilitirit wrote: »
    The last few pages of this thread gave me cancer.

    But ... But ... But .... Dhalsim vs Yun is like a 5-5 everyone is just playing it wrong!

    Reminds me of my friend who finally rage quit SF4. "Every match is 5-5 you scrubs, it's the players... Fuck man, why is Dan so shit in this game? He always actually competitive in Alpha!"
    Making man children cry on this forum is way too easy.
  • Marmalade_JonesMarmalade_Jones Joined: Posts: 279
    Yun Vs Dhalsim is nigh unwinnable. Unless the Yun plays incredibly stupid, of course. Sim cannot win that match. It's awful.

    Poison Vs Hugo sucks pretty bad, too. That has to be an 8-2 match-up or worse.

    Nah I don't think Yun v. Sim is nigh unwinnable. It's a solid 7-3 MU. Fuerte, Decapre, Hakan, Makoto, and Abel are all more difficult to win than Yun.
  • TheFreshPrinceTheFreshPrince Sold so many chickens think I work for Kroger Joined: Posts: 3,725
    I've always considered 7-3 to be almost unwinnable, and there's no way in hell that Yun only goes 6-4 against Sim.
    You just can't handle the fresh prince.

    R.I.P. Uncle Phil.
  • DelayedWakeUpDelayedWakeUp Realest Nigga Joined: Posts: 117
    Poison vs Hugo isn't a 10-0 poison match up anymore since 1.04 when Hugo got the clap buff to go through fireballs and still hit the opponent.

    Pretty much Hugo had almost no way to get in against poison mixing up her fireballs, but especially against the heavy fireball because she legitimately could hide behind it with no way for Hugo to get around it, if he jumped and pressed a button he would get hit by it, and if he empty jumped at that range to get over, he would just get anti aired and pushed out again. At the ranges where he could clap the heavy fireball, poison would recover first and punish with low forward into Rekka > back dash > meaty medium fireball > safe heavy fireball and start the zone again. His only way to even out the neutral is to get super but he would die before he would get super, and he wouldn't get super more then once a match if that.

    Now that the clap can break fireballs and hit the opponent, he has a large area where he can threaten the clap against her, because he will go through a heavy fireball and hit her into a full clap combo. He literally can spam claps all day and get super every round and then poison can't throw a single fireball, and her normals are lack luster in keeping him out just on normals.

    I played stormkubo at Canada cup in a money match, I got bodied 3-1, yea he didn't think it was a bad match up at all anymore
    d3v wrote: »
    Well the primary goal when you engage in a footsies battle is to out space your opponent to create an error so you can punish in a way that allows you to continue to press the advantage. Common examples are whiff punish into knockdown for follow up pressure or mix up, whiff punish into super for high damage while also potentially getting pressure and or mix up afterwards as well.
    False.

    LOL
  • Marmalade_JonesMarmalade_Jones Joined: Posts: 279
    I've always considered 7-3 to be almost unwinnable, and there's no way in hell that Yun only goes 6-4 against Sim.

    Im not sure if you're referring to my post, but I did state that I think Yun v. Sim is a solid 7-3 MU.

    MU number definitions are subjective. The characters I listed above feel nigh unwinnable for Sim. Yun feels fair compared to them.



  • Sephiroth73003Sephiroth73003 Joined: Posts: 4,222
    So been playing Juri a lot recently. Not 100% sure who her bad matchups are but other then Yun and Sakura not really having any matchup where I feel overwhelmed. Also lots of easy matchups like vs Sagat or any grappler. She just has so many options and an anti-air j.MP is 280 damage for 1 EX bar. Feng Shui with 1 guess can literally rape some characters like Rose to death. She seems really underutilized unless I'm missing something.

    SF3: Makoto and Ken
  • jebopjebop Joined: Posts: 6,890
    Bison > Juri. Especially with the ex scissors buff, you have 0 way of keeping him out.
    Making man children cry on this forum is way too easy.
  • Sephiroth73003Sephiroth73003 Joined: Posts: 4,222
    edited December 2015
    jebop wrote: »
    Bison > Juri. Especially with the ex scissors buff, you have 0 way of keeping him out.

    Given this is a matchup I've played a lot with her so far I don't get it. You just have to not do stuff when he has charge like every other fireball character, the recovery on her fireballs is actually worse then Ryu's by 1 frame. Her footsie game does well against him and if he gets caught without meter or in the corner she can give him a pretty hefty paddling. If she has a fireball stocked with 2 meters a random whiff punish or cr. MK confirms into massive corner carry and a knockdown. j. FP does really well against his anti airs and she has EX divekick to get in for free at + frames if she can get a fireball on screen. She can low profile a lot of his aerial stuff with cr. MK making stomp and devil's reverse terrible options. Not to mention she deals ALOT more damage per hit and st. MK > normal scissor pressure all day. st. LK will also punish MK scissors no matter how well spaced and is a good poke against scissors pressure also. She has a lot of true block strings and if you try to reversal and fail in the middle of a block string she can cancel into EX fireballs to keep them locked down into all sorts of disgusting pressure.

    Not only that after a pinwheel in the corner she can dash under him then cross back up in front destroying his charge so he can't EX psycho out of stuff. She can also do this when she is in Feng Shui forcing him to block out of a 50/50 400 dmg potential combo. Her st. LK also is fast enough to be meaty and block all of his reversals. Her overhead can beat out EX Psycho crusher also so yeah.

    Yeah ... no ... I really don't see that one.
    SF3: Makoto and Ken
  • DelayedWakeUpDelayedWakeUp Realest Nigga Joined: Posts: 117
    edited December 2015
    Fireball frame data is mad confusing since sometimes the recovery already adds the start up in it and sometimes it doesn't. But I'm pretty sure that the release of juris fireball isn't worse then ryus and actually a lot better at 33F
    d3v wrote: »
    Well the primary goal when you engage in a footsies battle is to out space your opponent to create an error so you can punish in a way that allows you to continue to press the advantage. Common examples are whiff punish into knockdown for follow up pressure or mix up, whiff punish into super for high damage while also potentially getting pressure and or mix up afterwards as well.
    False.

    LOL
  • Sephiroth73003Sephiroth73003 Joined: Posts: 4,222
    edited December 2015
    Fireball frame data is mad confusing since sometimes the recovery already adds the start up in it and sometimes it doesn't. But I'm pretty sure that the release if juris fireball isn't 44 frames, I think it's 33

    It is 33 the USFIV wiki says Ryu's is 32.

    http://wiki.shoryuken.com/Ultra_Street_Fighter_IV/Ryu

    Seemed odd but now that I look at Sagat's it says 45 ... shit seems off. Ryu's is probably just wrong.
    SF3: Makoto and Ken
  • DelayedWakeUpDelayedWakeUp Realest Nigga Joined: Posts: 117
    edited December 2015
    Fireball frame data is mad confusing since sometimes the recovery already adds the start up in it and sometimes it doesn't. But I'm pretty sure that the release if juris fireball isn't 44 frames, I think it's 33

    It is 33 the USFIV wiki says Ryu's is 32.

    http://wiki.shoryuken.com/Ultra_Street_Fighter_IV/Ryu

    Seemed odd but now that I look at Sagat's it says 45 ... shit seems off. Ryu's is probably just wrong.

    Ryus is 45 total frame count, juris is 33

    So for Ryu it is 13+32 and juri is 11+22
    d3v wrote: »
    Well the primary goal when you engage in a footsies battle is to out space your opponent to create an error so you can punish in a way that allows you to continue to press the advantage. Common examples are whiff punish into knockdown for follow up pressure or mix up, whiff punish into super for high damage while also potentially getting pressure and or mix up afterwards as well.
    False.

    LOL
  • AceKombatAceKombat (́◕◞౪◟◕‵) ”WINNERS DON’T USE ALMIGHTY.” Joined: Posts: 1,956
    Ken's recovery on fireball is also wrong in the SRK Frame Data section.
    With all the hope combined... there can be a chance in SFV that Ken can, one day, walk again. #TeamWheelchair
    If interested in SFEX2+ matchmaking: http://steamcommunity.com/groups/SFEX2P
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  • otoriotori RTSD Joined: Posts: 6,098
    Yun's bad matchups according to kazunoko: bonchan, momochi, boxer and elena
  • jebopjebop Joined: Posts: 6,890
    otori wrote: »
    Yun's bad matchups according to kazunoko: bonchan, momochi, boxer and elena

    ... and Tiger Knee (-_-).
    Making man children cry on this forum is way too easy.
  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    edited December 2015
    AceKombat wrote: »
    Ken's recovery on fireball is also wrong in the SRK Frame Data section.

    I see the problem, thanks. The old wikis put recovery section for fireballs as the total frames. So 47 is the actual total frame count, the 63 is automatically generated based on the rest of the values put in. I'll fix it. I guess I forgot to fix that when I altered others. I'll check other fireballs to make sure I got em all.

    Edit: I changed them according to the data in the guide books but I'm not entirely comfortable with those numbers as many of the totals didn't match the old totals. However at the moment my computer isn't set up to be able to record and frame check everything due to fresh format.
    Post edited by Eternal on
    http://ink-gaming.com/ono/doku.php The new home of the Ono Tool official wiki.
  • otoriotori RTSD Joined: Posts: 6,098
    I think they overdid the nerfs to Cammy. Shitastic damage and stun now holy shit.
  • jebopjebop Joined: Posts: 6,890
    Nothing is wrong with Cammy.
    Making man children cry on this forum is way too easy.
  • CipherCipher Catchphraser Joined: Posts: 1,387
    jebop wrote: »
    Nothing is wrong with Cammy.

    You need a brain for her now, thats a good reason to drop her and switch to Yun or E.Ryu.
    Street Fighter: Cammy,Rose,Decapre,Juni
    King of Fighters: Leona,Athena,Whip (Rugal as DLC!!!)
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    My SFV Cammyguide!
  • Sephiroth73003Sephiroth73003 Joined: Posts: 4,222
    Eh the stun needed to be toned down they probably could have left a little bit more of the damage.
    SF3: Makoto and Ken
  • carupscarups Joined: Posts: 463
    edited January 2016
    I only started maining Cammy after Ultra and I think she's pretty strong, but it does seem like Yun does a very similar job much better (and red focus was made for him). And 1f links with strongs or fierces are not really a problem if you can plink.

    The thing is to me it seems like she's a beast due to good design. Her soft knockdowns, jump distance and arc, divekick angle and knockdown distance all work together really well.
  • MachoRhombusMachoRhombus Joined: Posts: 2,744
    So.

    Can we finally agree that the game's matchups were not a collection of 5-5's and 6-4's and that the game actually had more 7-3's and 8-2's by now? I mean, the game is not the main focus anymore, not many feelings will be hurt, we can admit it now.
    CFN ID - PenguinShivers

    MJ|Shivers.
  • LoyalSolLoyalSol Drunken Akuma Joined: Posts: 6,690
    edited February 2016
    So.

    Can we finally agree that the game's matchups were not a collection of 5-5's and 6-4's and that the game actually had more 7-3's and 8-2's by now? I mean, the game is not the main focus anymore, not many feelings will be hurt, we can admit it now.

    Actually I really can't admit it because there weren't many match ups that felt absolutely horrible even when I was playing T-Hawk back in AE 2012. And usually those type of match ups were concentrated to characters who typically had multiple 3-7 or 2-8 match ups because of a glaring flaw in their design.
    Under stress you will not rise to your expectations, you will fall to your level of training.
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