USF4 Tier List Thread (updated October 2015)

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  • HNIC MikeHNIC Mike Joined: Posts: 10,346
    Komatik wrote: »
    HNIC Mike wrote: »
    malcyb wrote: »
    Was having a discussion with friends. Anyone think Akuma could be better than Emo Ryu with the new buffs?

    Most of the stuff I've been seeing on Twitter from various top players is saying the top 2 characters in the game are Akuma and Ken.

    This sounds more like who the best are playing atm than anything else.

    Dunno. It also doesn't give a context. But that was most of the chatter over the weekend.

    "Guys, i just asked top player x who the best was and he said ...."

    Usual answer was Ken or Akuma. I know I can't really see either of them having many bad matches. Maybe they just meant best tournament characters?

  • NecrotrophicNecrotrophic Isn't a communist. Joined: Posts: 5,909
    Well most people don't actually understand the game mechanics, so when you mention specific buffs or nerfs to other characters etc they are basically going to skip over any detailed statement you say and go with their gut reaction.
    Northeast PA
    570 Necro
  • Sephiroth73003Sephiroth73003 Joined: Posts: 4,287
    Eh top 5 is probably in no order

    Ibuki, Akuma, Ken, E. Ryu, Yun

    Cammy, Viper, Poison, Fei and not sure on the final one ... maybe Elena? for top 10.
    SF3: Makoto and Ken
  • VeseriusVeserius Hold Down Back Joined: Posts: 11,491
    Well most people don't actually understand the game mechanics, so when you mention specific buffs or nerfs to other characters etc they are basically going to skip over any detailed statement you say and go with their gut reaction.

    Oh definitely, it's why my responses have become shorter and less frequent over time, people will literally disagree with things that are hardcoded into the game. I can write paragraphs about a specific interaction in a matchup, and the person who asked about it originally is still confused and going to stick to their intuition and not even process anything I said. Not to say I'm a great player(and I've definitely tailed off the last year and a half), but I feel I can at least explain things that have no real room for interpretation like a safejump+os situation being air tight or w/e
    Vuh-sair-ee-us or just Ves I guess | Twitter | Youtube  | Maj's Footsie Handbook  | My TMNT:TF Netplay Guide
  • jebopjebop Joined: Posts: 6,890
    @VolcanicAkuma55 has a top tier moustache if that counts. Easily #1.
    Making man children cry on this forum is way too easy.
  • TeriosTerios Where do you want me to break you first? Joined: Posts: 1,675
    So how many people still feel Poison is top 5? 10?
    Rashiidoooooooo!
  • HighlandfireballHighlandfireball Are you ready for a war? Joined: Posts: 8,745
    She was never top 5. After that she's fair game for a spot in the better end. She's still one of the better characters. After it get's past the top 5ish, a lot of the stronger characters are hard to separate anyway.

    It's clear that this game has quite a few viable characters.
  • TeriosTerios Where do you want me to break you first? Joined: Posts: 1,675
    I agree she was never top 5. Even when people thought she was I never thought she went above yun ibuki e.ryu Juri or viper. Just curious about her current popular opinion.
    Rashiidoooooooo!
  • NooctaNoocta Didja see that ? Joined: Posts: 2,418
    Seems like her health nerf really put people away. Makes errors in her zoning more punishing and her bad PD more of an issue.
    Makoto / Yun / Viper
  • VolcanicAkuma55VolcanicAkuma55 Joined: Posts: 1,991
    jebop wrote: »
    @VolcanicAkuma55 has a top tier moustache if that counts. Easily #1.
    And don't you forget it.

    Real talk though, the only American Akuma who has done anything of substance (tourney-wise) for the past few years is FourWude.

    If I could get out to more events, I could become better, I think.
    SF main: Akuma
    not wannabe, GUNNA BE pro. just need more practice.
    FIX AKUMA AND GOUKEN'S MUSIC IN USF4. WE DONT NEED 3 VERSIONS OF RYU'S THEME
  • jebopjebop Joined: Posts: 6,890
    I second FourWude (after moustache). Hasn't really won anything big that I know of, but by no means a slouch. Even Ultra Chen praise him.

    Poison/Rose cries died quite quick. Yun only gets hate if a bad one somehow wins. Cammy is still "brain dead", unless it's K-Brad cause the stream monsters hate him, let's be real it's just because he's in EG. People only hate Decapre if it's a mirror cause it looks like DBZ without actually throwing a punch. Zangief top 5 died a very long time ago. People needed Momochi's Tier List to see Seth is still good? He installed Ken.exe in their heads. So we now we're stuck with about 14 characters in top 5. We had around 22 before.
    Making man children cry on this forum is way too easy.
  • Sephiroth73003Sephiroth73003 Joined: Posts: 4,287
    Honestly been repping Viper for about 3 months now and I'm convinced Viper's worst matchup is Juri. She just shits on anything she does so hard, just nuetral jumping is scary and a perfectly done divekick can't really be guaranteed punished by anything worth a damn. Her normals shit on vipers so bad it's just sad. Who are Juri's worst matchups?
    SF3: Makoto and Ken
  • jebopjebop Joined: Posts: 6,890
    Yun/Bison, well those are two characters I use and both beat her.
    Making man children cry on this forum is way too easy.
  • TeriosTerios Where do you want me to break you first? Joined: Posts: 1,675
    I don't know if Juri is Vipers worst matchup but it's definitely Juris favor. Yuns probably her worst now. Honda and Sakura used to be really bad but I haven't played any Hondas in Ultra and Sakura is way more manageable thanks to the tatsu and j.hp nerfs and pinwheel being fully invincible.
    Rashiidoooooooo!
  • OuroborusOuroborus plays 3s just to troll Joined: Posts: 7,211 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    edited March 2015
    top 10 is too hard. its easier to do bottom 10 or bottom 15.


    Bottom 5:
    Sim
    Blanka
    Hugo
    Deejay
    Dan

    Honda
    Vega
    Cody
    Gouken
    Ryu
    Guile
    Elena
    Guy
    Chun
    Hakan
    Blanka

    Gen and Oni could replace one or two of the characters in the bottom 15.

    EDIT: Forgot to add blanka.
    Post edited by Ouroborus on
    ssf4ae tier list regarding Gen:

    D Proto: and where is Gen?
    oORYUOo: you cannot tier what you cannot see
  • p0tat0 5aladp0tat0 5alad I like orange. Joined: Posts: 1,278
    You have T. Hawk above alot of chars
    UMvC3 - Spencer/Task/Skrull
    AE - Abel
  • jebopjebop Joined: Posts: 6,890
    edited March 2015
    T Hawk isn't that bad, but I wouldn't say he's better than Elena, Ryu, Chun or Vega.
    Making man children cry on this forum is way too easy.
  • OuroborusOuroborus plays 3s just to troll Joined: Posts: 7,211 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    has t. hawk gotten weaker with the 1.04 patch?

    it seems like he did with the condor spire nerf.
    ssf4ae tier list regarding Gen:

    D Proto: and where is Gen?
    oORYUOo: you cannot tier what you cannot see
  • HNIC MikeHNIC Mike Joined: Posts: 10,346
    DJ and Hakan have a stigma attatched to them at this point.

    It would take a few major tourney placings before people would even consider them being good.
  • TeriosTerios Where do you want me to break you first? Joined: Posts: 1,675
    Dee Jay is totally being underrated. 1.04 was very nice to him. Elena, Chun, Guile and Vega are good too. Maybe Hakan. I felt he was good before but honestly I just ignore his existence since he's not played much at all.

    I dunno. It's so freaking hard to say now. I think people need to start posting matchup numbers. We could really use one of those charts again to help with discussions.
    Rashiidoooooooo!
  • NecrotrophicNecrotrophic Isn't a communist. Joined: Posts: 5,909
    I agree, matchup matrices are way better and I don't know why we stopped making them.

    Event hubs has one but for every intelligent vote there's 3 stupid ones so the matchups are largely wrong.
    Northeast PA
    570 Necro
  • OuroborusOuroborus plays 3s just to troll Joined: Posts: 7,211 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    The fuck are you putting Vega and Elena that low for?

    well, who the fuck do you think is bottom 15 then?
    ssf4ae tier list regarding Gen:

    D Proto: and where is Gen?
    oORYUOo: you cannot tier what you cannot see
  • bypostmanbypostman Joined: Posts: 2,207
    15 entries of Deejay I guess
  • FatFat Joined: Posts: 84
    Do any of you have the overall brackets for Final Round? Not just the pools list? I think there are some answers there regarding tiers and what some top players feel are really great counterpicks (aka bad/good matchups for certain characters).

    For instance, Fei Long vs Elena is bad. Really bad - probably unwinnable at the highest levels. Funny how Fuudo had Chris G in pools - luckily survived, only to get counterpicked again. Unlucky in pools. 6-4 match at least.

    Hugo vs Yun. Looks tough for Yun as soon as hugo gets meter. Kazunoko was pretty unlucky to get stuck playing Kelvin Jeon (USA's best Hugo) in pools; but he is the best at this matchup. The constant target combo jumps are really strong. Even until Hugo gets meter; then in hugo's favor.

    E.Ryu vs Balrog looks good for Rog. He shuts down all of E.Ryu options and has many ways to escape dive kick pressure. The reduction in life really hurts E.Ryu here. Daigo was unlucky to have to fight PR Rog so early (top 64), but he got away. I think PR Rog could have definitely won this match.

    E.Ryu vs Fei Long. This match looks the same as Ryu vs Fei, but worse. The reason being is that E.Ryu doesnt get a chance to do massive damage without meter, and how can he get meter? Fei has a great focus and can safe rekka pretty easily. Therefore, E.Ryu has to use meter on EX Fireballs just the get out of the corner. In v2012, E.Ryu had lots of setups he could exploit. Those are now gone. DP is also nerfed, so fishing with a DP, FADC after blocked rekka, etc... is gone. Daigo vs Fuudo top 32 was pretty unlucky.

    E.Ryu vs Sim. At top level i think this is a tough match for E.Ryu.

    Ryu vs Sim. Unwinnable at high level.





  • FatFat Joined: Posts: 84
    Anyone have the brackets for Final Round?

    Seems like the top japanese players had some really rough luck with the brackets. Kaz vs Kelvin Jeon in pools? Daigo vs PR Rog top 64? Fuudo vs Chris G pools?

    I think Elena vs Fei is 7-3. Unwinnable over multiple matches for Fei at highest levels.
  • The Mad KingThe Mad King Hyou~ Joined: Posts: 262
    At the very least I think Oni and T.Hawk are worse than both.
  • ShineboxShinebox Joined: Posts: 2,689

    I honestly do not know how good Oni is right now. Perhaps Wao will come out an Wow us all. Oni got some improvements in ver1.04
  • just5moreminutesjust5moreminutes Eagle will return Joined: Posts: 7,897
    My attempt at making a tier list. I do not pretend to know everything, so feel free to ask if you think a placement is off. Don't take it as an exact science, particularly the horizontal axis. I could easily move characters around within their grouping, and the ones on the edges I could see rising/falling into the next group. Basically, the groups mean:
    -Very viable and probably to be seen with at least moderate regularity in high-level play
    -Viable enough, but much rarer in application outside of specific match ups.
    -Dan and Sim just have crippling flaws that make it hard to see them doing much of anything that a much better character isn't already doing better, faster, and/or more efficiently.
  • cerberusfxcerberusfx Timekeeper Joined: Posts: 2,351
    edited March 2015
    Shinebox wrote: »
    I honestly do not know how good Oni is right now. Perhaps Wao will come out an Wow us all. Oni got some improvements in ver1.04

    he didn't get improvements at all. He just got some stuff reverted from AE2012 where A LOT of other characters simply got buffed.
    He is almost back to where he was before but DWU + health nerf puts him in check imo

    Things that would make him better would be:
    Revert these:
    - Sekisei Jiraiken: Medium version 1 frame of invincibility removed
    - Health: Reduced to 950 from 1000

    Add:
    - Increased forward walkspeed (Ryu style)
    - Decrease startup frame of Air U1 // Drastically increase speed of fireball
    - Increase projectile hitbox of AA U1 in width
    - Decrease recovery on all his airdash when he's on the ground
    - Make his back airdash cancelable anytime (not just on hit/block)
    - Projectile invincibility on the whole length of his arm when doing F+HP
    - Yellow Flash of EX stomp appears when he starts coming down

    Jiggles:
    - command dive kick because at this point they all have dive kicks when they get good (ken's dive kick is horizontal so...yeah)

    It might not completely address his main problems but that's ok since I wasn't looking to make him more well-rounded. I was trying to emphasize more on making some of his tools better
    Power is nothing without skill
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  • AceKombatAceKombat (́◕◞౪◟◕‵) ”WINNERS DON’T USE ALMIGHTY.” Joined: Posts: 2,057
    edited March 2015
    My attempt at making a tier list. I do not pretend to know everything, so feel free to ask if you think a placement is off. Don't take it as an exact science, particularly the horizontal axis. I could easily move characters around within their grouping, and the ones on the edges I could see rising/falling into the next group. Basically, the groups mean:
    -Very viable and probably to be seen with at least moderate regularity in high-level play
    -Viable enough, but much rarer in application outside of specific match ups.
    -Dan and Sim just have crippling flaws that make it hard to see them doing much of anything that a much better character isn't already doing better, faster, and/or more efficiently.

    I don't see how Dhalsim is that severely low. He's not great, but he's on the leagues of the people just above him. Outside obvious characters who gets on him badly, it's not that troublesome to make him work out.

    I'm surprised on your placements on El Fuerte and Gen. I think they are higher than what people give them credit for (mainly Gen).

    Decapre is tough to say. She's good, but I don't really believe she is that dominant.

    I also am not too fund with (atm) the tiers being really separate from one another in this version of USFIV, imo there are a lot of people who can fair up to each other. Example, I feel the row with Hugo can fit with the row that has T.Hawk in it (just above). Granted, the size would be too huge, but in terms of potential, they are almost similar (this includes Dhalsim being in the row too).

    Everything else, I can see why the choices can be theorized, so it's good.

    It might be better at this point if we can just evaluate match-up tiers for the whole cast like @Terios suggested to get a more clearer insight how the tiers are. I'll probably post a Ryu one soon.
    With all the hope combined... there can be a chance in SFV that Ken can, one day, walk again. #TeamWheelchair
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  • just5moreminutesjust5moreminutes Eagle will return Joined: Posts: 7,897
    AceKombat wrote: »
    I don't see how Dhalsim is that severely low. He's not great, but he's on the leagues of the people just above him. Outside obvious characters who gets on him badly, it's not that troublesome to make him work out.

    I'm surprised on your placements on El Fuerte and Gen. I think they are higher than what people give them credit for (mainly Gen).

    Decapre is tough to say. She's good, but I don't really believe she is that dominant.

    I also am not too fund with (atm) the tiers being really separate from one another in this version of USFIV, imo there are a lot of people who can fair up to each other. Example, I feel the row with Hugo can fit with the row that has T.Hawk in it (just above). Granted, the size would be too huge, but in terms of potential, they are almost similar (this includes Dhalsim being in the row too).

    Everything else, I can see why the choices can be theorized, so it's good.

    It might be better at this point if we can just evaluate match-up tiers for the whole cast like @Terios suggested to get a more clearer insight how the tiers are. I'll probably post a Ryu one soon.

    I feel Hugo is at least 1 notch below T.Hawk because of how many god awful matches he has. T.Hawk has one definitively bad match vs Blanka, but Hugo has like 3-5 of those.
    Sim feels like his game plan only partially works. The thread has already discussed that the number of moves that avoid projectiles is one of the biggest reasons he has so many bad matches, but he only deals with a few relevant characters properly (E.Ryu, Ken, Akuma) and loses to to most of the top 20-30. If his designated game plan of zoning the opponent was effective vs even half of the roster, he would move up a notch. Currently, he just feels like half a character without reliable options in many cases, similar to Dan.
    I will admit that I could see Gen moving to the top of the 2nd group, but my knowledge of him is lacking so I have trouble thinking of his strengths. I initially had Fuerte and Rolento switched, but I feel that Rolento is at least 1 tier better than Fuerte at annoying people, so I moved them.
    Decapre's thing is, she is at least better than CAMMY. But Cammy's really damn good so that really leaves one reigon for her...

    I would personally love to work on a match up chart for Elena. I might get to it this weekend, time permitting.
  • TeriosTerios Where do you want me to break you first? Joined: Posts: 1,675
    A bit of Elena talk is going on in Juri boards. What do you think about that matchup?
    Rashiidoooooooo!
  • VeseriusVeserius Hold Down Back Joined: Posts: 11,491
    Deejay is still bad. He's fairly functional now, but going from clearly worst in the game to "i can play footsies kind of" and "i have a reversal if i have an ex bar" isn't anything particularly special.

    Deejay is stuck in a lot of matchups with "I need them to keep making mistakes to win" which isn't a road to success. Like how does he beat a lot of characters without betting on matchup inexperience or mistakes?

    I feel like every patch no matter what happens to him people start saying he's "underrated" but the "best Deejay in the world" can't even get out of pools at Final Round? You can't be underrated and have like 10 horrible matchups
    Vuh-sair-ee-us or just Ves I guess | Twitter | Youtube  | Maj's Footsie Handbook  | My TMNT:TF Netplay Guide
  • TeriosTerios Where do you want me to break you first? Joined: Posts: 1,675
    Oh he's definitely still BAD. He would practically need an overhaul to his buttons to not be. But he's not worst in the game which I truly believe he was 1.03. I would at least read a post from someone arguing that he's not bottom 5 now rather than saying lol and moving on. He at least exists now. I also want to see more KDJ because the consensus is he just had a bad day.
    Rashiidoooooooo!
  • just5moreminutesjust5moreminutes Eagle will return Joined: Posts: 7,897
    After playing a bit in training and looking at the guide, I'd rate it as about 5-5. Juri forces Elena to take risks going in on her, but Juri has very serious issues if she gets knocked down. It all comes down to the Juri player having to stay ahead of Elena.

    Also, Elena's U1 goes through projectiles. You have been warned.
  • AceKombatAceKombat (́◕◞౪◟◕‵) ”WINNERS DON’T USE ALMIGHTY.” Joined: Posts: 2,057
    edited March 2015
    Veserius wrote: »
    Deejay is still bad. He's fairly functional now, but going from clearly worst in the game to "i can play footsies kind of" and "i have a reversal if i have an ex bar" isn't anything particularly special.

    Deejay is stuck in a lot of matchups with "I need them to keep making mistakes to win" which isn't a road to success. Like how does he beat a lot of characters without betting on matchup inexperience or mistakes?

    I feel like every patch no matter what happens to him people start saying he's "underrated" but the "best Deejay in the world" can't even get out of pools at Final Round? You can't be underrated and have like 10 horrible matchups

    How does Dee Jay do against Abel? I mean, he did lose to Abel twice.

    It would of been nice if there were more video footage of him outside of teams. He made some very dangerous execution errors in teams such as dropping a combo which led to an unsafe super cancel. Makes me wonder if he made these same type of errors in the actual singles tournament.
    With all the hope combined... there can be a chance in SFV that Ken can, one day, walk again. #TeamWheelchair
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