USF4 Tier List Thread (updated October 2015)

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  • jebopjebop Joined: Posts: 6,890
    Dhalsim, counterpick, Yun.

    Wake me up pls.
    Making man children cry on this forum is way too easy.
  • VeseriusVeserius Hold Down Back Joined: Posts: 11,511
    edited December 2015
    Cast admits he knows less about matchups than me, when he needs tips wanna guess who he asks?

    <==================================

    here is the match in the current version of the game.




    If this looks 6-4 to you, I'm not sure you understand the matchup.

    Slower spire means it is MUCH less likely to catch balls in startup, which helps blanka's zoning game a ton as well. I'm not going to break down a solved matchup though. Do balls, win.
    Vuh-sair-ee-us or just Ves I guess | Twitter | Youtube  | Maj's Footsie Handbook  | My TMNT:TF Netplay Guide
  • DelayedWakeUpDelayedWakeUp Realest Nigga Joined: Posts: 117
    edited December 2015
    Veserius wrote: »
    Cast admits he knows less about matchups than me, when he needs tips wanna guess who he asks?

    <==================================

    here is the match in the current version of the game.




    If this looks 6-4 to you, I'm not sure you understand the matchup.

    Slower spire means it is MUCH less likely to catch balls in startup, which helps blanka's zoning game a ton as well. I'm not going to break down a solved matchup though. Do balls, win.

    So hit up your home boy and ask him about the t hawk match after playing blueblazer at Canada cup

    Also shout outs to calling out online sets and then linking an online set (but it's JAPAN hurrr) and calling out old usf4 versions and linking an older video with a clear date
    d3v wrote: »
    Well the primary goal when you engage in a footsies battle is to out space your opponent to create an error so you can punish in a way that allows you to continue to press the advantage. Common examples are whiff punish into knockdown for follow up pressure or mix up, whiff punish into super for high damage while also potentially getting pressure and or mix up afterwards as well.
    False.

    LOL
  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    edited December 2015
    Veserius wrote: »
    Cast admits he knows less about matchups than me, when he needs tips wanna guess who he asks?

    <==================================

    here is the match in the current version of the game.




    If this looks 6-4 to you, I'm not sure you understand the matchup.

    Slower spire means it is MUCH less likely to catch balls in startup, which helps blanka's zoning game a ton as well. I'm not going to break down a solved matchup though. Do balls, win.

    Video says 10/17/2014 despite the date uploaded. That would be just before 1.04 update on Dec 14th.

    This also confirms TL4B (Topanga League 4 B ) occurred in October:

    http://shoryuken.com/2014/10/25/topanga-league-4-b-round-1-streaming-live/

    September 25th -> October 25th

    http://ink-gaming.com/ono/doku.php The new home of the Ono Tool official wiki.
  • VeseriusVeserius Hold Down Back Joined: Posts: 11,511
    edited December 2015
    oh okay, so thats with the matchup being even harder, and it still looks free. Thanks Eternal.

    Cast who is self admittedly not good at analyzing matchups to the point he asks me to do it for him. So I should ask him what I think?

    Blueblazer is probably much better at the matchup than Cast is. Riceata is also a player who isn't particularly good at matchup specifics.
    Vuh-sair-ee-us or just Ves I guess | Twitter | Youtube  | Maj's Footsie Handbook  | My TMNT:TF Netplay Guide
  • HighlandfireballHighlandfireball Are you ready for a war? Joined: Posts: 9,021
    edited December 2015
    otori wrote: »
    Ok it's just "counterpick" yun with dhalsim is too strong a word

    I'm sorry I didn't mean dhalsim is a counter pick to yun, I tried to make that clear with saying several times it's a hard match for Sim. What I meant was Julio will run his dhalsim against players when he sees them choose yun (I meant counter as in he picks after they do)

    That's not even the same scenario. I can beat Sagat with other characters because I'm a Sagat main and know exactly how he loses.

    Counter picking your own main is not the same as playing a bad match up. Particularly if you happen to main both sides in that scenario.

    Unless you expect us to intimately learn all 44 characters so we basically know every piece of knowledge in existence.

    # Tells wife and kids I'm leaving to be a street fighter#

    #Mains Dan because it's all bout dem skillz#
  • ShineboxShinebox Joined: Posts: 2,689
    edited December 2015
    Eternal wrote: »
    Veserius wrote: »
    Cast admits he knows less about matchups than me, when he needs tips wanna guess who he asks?

    <==================================

    here is the match in the current version of the game.




    If this looks 6-4 to you, I'm not sure you understand the matchup.

    Slower spire means it is MUCH less likely to catch balls in startup, which helps blanka's zoning game a ton as well. I'm not going to break down a solved matchup though. Do balls, win.

    Video says 10/17/2014 despite the date uploaded. That would be just before 1.04 update on Dec 14th.

    This also confirms TL4B (Topanga League 4 B ) occurred in October:

    http://shoryuken.com/2014/10/25/topanga-league-4-b-round-1-streaming-live/

    September 25th -> October 25th

    I was thinking the same thing but in either event I'm inclined to believe Veserius knows more about the match up than Tali DelayedWakeUp. Veserius gave at least one scenario where Blanka would win. This other sucker who is now on ignore posted a video with 0 explanation on why T Hawk does ok.
  • DelayedWakeUpDelayedWakeUp Realest Nigga Joined: Posts: 117
    edited December 2015
    Veserius wrote: »
    oh okay, so thats with the matchup being even harder, and it still looks free. Thanks Eternal.

    Cast who is self admittedly not good at analyzing matchups to the point he asks me to do it for him. So I should ask him what I think?

    Blueblazer is probably much better at the matchup than Cast is. Riceata is also a player who isn't particularly good at matchup specifics.

    Oh he is a good blanka player he just doesn't have any understanding of match ups what so ever. This makes much sense. Wait you just said cast blanka doesn't know the t hawk match up now? Wait I thought it's just do balls and win, how could a blanka player place second at absolute battles and win a WNF and not know about just do blanka balls. Btw did you ask him what he thinks of the match up now after playing that t hawk player?
    d3v wrote: »
    Well the primary goal when you engage in a footsies battle is to out space your opponent to create an error so you can punish in a way that allows you to continue to press the advantage. Common examples are whiff punish into knockdown for follow up pressure or mix up, whiff punish into super for high damage while also potentially getting pressure and or mix up afterwards as well.
    False.

    LOL
  • DelayedWakeUpDelayedWakeUp Realest Nigga Joined: Posts: 117
    otori wrote: »
    Ok it's just "counterpick" yun with dhalsim is too strong a word

    I'm sorry I didn't mean dhalsim is a counter pick to yun, I tried to make that clear with saying several times it's a hard match for Sim. What I meant was Julio will run his dhalsim against players when he sees them choose yun (I meant counter as in he picks after they do)

    That's not even the same scenario. I can beat Sagat with other characters because I'm a Sagat main and know exactly how he loses.

    Counter picking your own main is not the same as playing a bad match up. Particularly if you happen to main both sides in that scenario.

    Unless you expect us to intimately learn all 44 characters so we basically know every piece of knowledge in existence.

    # Tells wife and kids I'm leaving to be a street fighter#

    #Mains Dan because it's all bout dem skillz#

    Wait so if yun beats dhalsim so hard that it's "nigh unwinnable", but someone who plays yun at a high level and pockets a dhalsim (so they would understand this match up very well) actually goes out of his way to play this bad match up in money matches, wouldn't this suggest he sees that dhalsim can win (though still hard) as long as you are comfortable with the match up. Sure yun probably shits all over dhalsim at the low level, but why is that even considered when judging the match up.
    d3v wrote: »
    Well the primary goal when you engage in a footsies battle is to out space your opponent to create an error so you can punish in a way that allows you to continue to press the advantage. Common examples are whiff punish into knockdown for follow up pressure or mix up, whiff punish into super for high damage while also potentially getting pressure and or mix up afterwards as well.
    False.

    LOL
  • VeseriusVeserius Hold Down Back Joined: Posts: 11,511
    edited December 2015
    He's good at Blanka, I help manage matchup specifics for him when he struggles with them because he's my buddy and gets easily locked into one playstyle and isn't particularly great at training mode which is a self admitted fault. Not gonna scour his stream archive for when we were talking about this a bit ago, but here are some recent twitter DM's.

    tbCCcM9.png

    caMeJ5w.png

    If you wanna namedrop Blankas, don't namedrop ones I helped improve.

    It's easy to get into a mindset where you don't feel you're playing against Hawk "smart enough" so you start deviating from the gameplan. Look at the game Nishikin lost, he wasn't teching knockdowns for some reason and was much less aggressive with balling and backdashing.
    Vuh-sair-ee-us or just Ves I guess | Twitter | Youtube  | Maj's Footsie Handbook  | My TMNT:TF Netplay Guide
  • MachoRhombusMachoRhombus Joined: Posts: 2,914
    edited December 2015
    I don't want to be a dick, but I'll take the Blanka player's opinion over a dude who is talking as if he knows all 1936 matchups (holy SHIT btw) in the game in-depth. I have also played both Cast and Veserius so I have reasons to believe he knows what he's talking about.

    Player skill is important, without skill and gameplans Snake Eyez would have never beaten Bonchan at Canada Cup, but the thing about matchups is that they're measured taking high level gameplay into consideration, Yun-Sim being a 7-3/8-2 didn't come from John vs Paul, it came from analyzing matches, opinions from Yun and Dhalsim players and actual results, if Julio goes out of his way to play that matchup and takes it then more power to him but Julio beating lesser Yuns is irrelevant to the actual matchup number. Gackt's Sagat wrecked Snake Eyez last saturday and he was close to sending him out 0-2, Itabashi was really close to beating Poongko game 1 but Seth dominating the matchup let Poongko get games that were basically lost back by just grinding Gief down. Picking a top tier won't make anyone win, it's got more to do with the bracket you get and the matchups you'll have to face.

    This game is "balanced" because everyone is neutered as fuck and people are scared to call matchups anything worse than a 7-3.
    CFN ID - PenguinShivers

    MJ|Shivers.
  • HighlandfireballHighlandfireball Are you ready for a war? Joined: Posts: 9,021
    edited December 2015
    otori wrote: »
    Ok it's just "counterpick" yun with dhalsim is too strong a word

    I'm sorry I didn't mean dhalsim is a counter pick to yun, I tried to make that clear with saying several times it's a hard match for Sim. What I meant was Julio will run his dhalsim against players when he sees them choose yun (I meant counter as in he picks after they do)

    That's not even the same scenario. I can beat Sagat with other characters because I'm a Sagat main and know exactly how he loses.

    Counter picking your own main is not the same as playing a bad match up. Particularly if you happen to main both sides in that scenario.

    Unless you expect us to intimately learn all 44 characters so we basically know every piece of knowledge in existence.

    # Tells wife and kids I'm leaving to be a street fighter#

    #Mains Dan because it's all bout dem skillz#

    Wait so if yun beats dhalsim so hard that it's "nigh unwinnable", but someone who plays yun at a high level and pockets a dhalsim (so they would understand this match up very well) actually goes out of his way to play this bad match up in money matches, wouldn't this suggest he sees that dhalsim can win (though still hard) as long as you are comfortable with the match up. Sure yun probably shits all over dhalsim at the low level, but why is that even considered when judging the match up.

    Two things.

    1) 3+ years of playing a character is going to give you massive insight on even the smallest of details. Something like that is very specific. What if the same guy then counter picks your counter pick with Ibuki, or Viper? You know that match up with Dhalsim as well? That's a special case.

    2) Dhalsim can afford maybe one to two mistakes , Yun can afford five to six, then still win.....

    I totally understand your point, I just don't think you are grasping odds, or at least you seem to be blindly ignoring them for some reason. The tier list isn't any more accurate than my chances of beating Phil Helmuth at the WPT holding Aces when he's holding Kings.

    But Aces ARE better than Kings.

    Of course there are no Facts in FGs, only changing opinions, but you can be sure at this stage of the Meta, Evil Ryu is a better % pick than E-Honda. It's simply not possible to have a balanced game with thousands of variables.

    Most of us actually prefer strength as balance rather than nerfs because strength can always overcome poor odds. I think that T Hawk example is a pretty decent way of showing how one big change matters.
  • DelayedWakeUpDelayedWakeUp Realest Nigga Joined: Posts: 117
    Veserius wrote: »
    He's good at Blanka, I help manage matchup specifics for him when he struggles with them because he's my buddy and gets easily locked into one playstyle and isn't particularly great at training mode which is a self admitted fault. Not gonna scour his stream archive for when we were talking about this a bit ago, but here are some recent twitter DM's.

    tbCCcM9.png

    caMeJ5w.png

    If you wanna namedrop Blankas, don't namedrop ones I helped improve.

    It's easy to get into a mindset where you don't feel you're playing against Hawk "smart enough" so you start deviating from the gameplan. Look at the game Nishikin lost, he wasn't teching knockdowns for some reason and was much less aggressive with balling and backdashing.

    I don't doubt your buddies and have shared tech. Your screen caps show he had some trouble with chun (I'm going to assume brolylegs) and you threw him some decapre stuff since that's a character you play. So why don't you screen cap some dms of asking him his thoughts on the thawk match up after his sets with blueblazer, are you telling me you are his mind and he has no thoughts of his own or comprehension of match ups ? Because your feeling your self over having match up dialogue with players when that's common practice in fgc scenes lol. Now stop dodging and go ask him
    d3v wrote: »
    Well the primary goal when you engage in a footsies battle is to out space your opponent to create an error so you can punish in a way that allows you to continue to press the advantage. Common examples are whiff punish into knockdown for follow up pressure or mix up, whiff punish into super for high damage while also potentially getting pressure and or mix up afterwards as well.
    False.

    LOL
  • VeseriusVeserius Hold Down Back Joined: Posts: 11,511
    Nah
    Vuh-sair-ee-us or just Ves I guess | Twitter | Youtube  | Maj's Footsie Handbook  | My TMNT:TF Netplay Guide
  • DelayedWakeUpDelayedWakeUp Realest Nigga Joined: Posts: 117
    edited December 2015
    Stay free
    #Winning
    d3v wrote: »
    Well the primary goal when you engage in a footsies battle is to out space your opponent to create an error so you can punish in a way that allows you to continue to press the advantage. Common examples are whiff punish into knockdown for follow up pressure or mix up, whiff punish into super for high damage while also potentially getting pressure and or mix up afterwards as well.
    False.

    LOL
  • VeseriusVeserius Hold Down Back Joined: Posts: 11,511
    Get ignored

    #hashtagsonforumsarestupid
    Vuh-sair-ee-us or just Ves I guess | Twitter | Youtube  | Maj's Footsie Handbook  | My TMNT:TF Netplay Guide
  • DelayedWakeUpDelayedWakeUp Realest Nigga Joined: Posts: 117
    #forumcowards
    d3v wrote: »
    Well the primary goal when you engage in a footsies battle is to out space your opponent to create an error so you can punish in a way that allows you to continue to press the advantage. Common examples are whiff punish into knockdown for follow up pressure or mix up, whiff punish into super for high damage while also potentially getting pressure and or mix up afterwards as well.
    False.

    LOL
  • DelayedWakeUpDelayedWakeUp Realest Nigga Joined: Posts: 117
    Meanwhile Dave over at the Tali T-1000 android factory -

    " Jim, he's fucked it again, lasted 60 posts this time, fire another one up for deployment, we Gota find some way of keeping him stable"

    What the hell are you even talking about?
    d3v wrote: »
    Well the primary goal when you engage in a footsies battle is to out space your opponent to create an error so you can punish in a way that allows you to continue to press the advantage. Common examples are whiff punish into knockdown for follow up pressure or mix up, whiff punish into super for high damage while also potentially getting pressure and or mix up afterwards as well.
    False.

    LOL
  • otoriotori RTSD Joined: Posts: 6,183
    I dunno it's a good shift from the usual circlejerk. I enjoy Tali's posts, he just has trouble coming to terms with different viewpoints.

    Ded gaem anywayz.
  • HighlandfireballHighlandfireball Are you ready for a war? Joined: Posts: 9,021
    Meanwhile Dave over at the Tali T-1000 android factory -

    " Jim, he's fucked it again, lasted 60 posts this time, fire another one up for deployment, we Gota find some way of keeping him stable"

    What the hell are you even talking about?

    High level mind games. A tier - if you believe in that sort of thing.
  • TheFreshPrinceTheFreshPrince Sold so many chickens think I work for Kroger Joined: Posts: 3,725
    You can always tell its tali, because he'll drop little bits of actually useful information, but it's accompanied by a shitload of ignorance and stupidity.
    You just can't handle the fresh prince.

    R.I.P. Uncle Phil.
  • MachoRhombusMachoRhombus Joined: Posts: 2,914
    ilitirit wrote: »
    The last few pages of this thread gave me cancer.

    Made me remember the good old Akuma days.
    CFN ID - PenguinShivers

    MJ|Shivers.
  • Sephiroth73003Sephiroth73003 Joined: Posts: 4,291
    ilitirit wrote: »
    The last few pages of this thread gave me cancer.

    But ... But ... But .... Dhalsim vs Yun is like a 5-5 everyone is just playing it wrong!
    SF3: Makoto and Ken
  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    edited December 2015
    People are entitled to have their opinions and there is no reason to echo chamber them if they don't align with yours as long as you can provide a coherent debate about it that also allows admitting being wrong, or if not "wrong" (as it may be a difference in opinion rather than a fact) simply being willing to discuss an idea civilly and listen rather than entirely settle on your view before engaging others. This isn't to say you have to not believe your own views wholeheartedly but you should at least take the time to consider others.

    Ultimately a debate shouldn't be an attempt to rack up points and declare a winner but rather to explore the ideas and view points from multiple angles.

    Sadly that is an idealistic view that no one, not even myself despite requesting it, typically follows as well as they should. Some make little attempt to do so at all, and that is why I have them on ignore usually.
    Post edited by Eternal on
    http://ink-gaming.com/ono/doku.php The new home of the Ono Tool official wiki.
  • Toxic_BeautyToxic_Beauty Joined: Posts: 34
    Cipher wrote: »
    The Point of some Tierlist is also the personal opinion.
    Last time someone asked Daigo about Tiers he listed Cammy still top 5, no one else does this right now, because we have so many strong players with different strong characters now.

    Cammy is still strong and can do what she did in AE2012.

    Seth is still a strong character,even after all these nerfs.

    E.Ryu is a good character, but has very little health.

    Elena might be good, but I think people just haven't figured out how to shut her down.

    Rolento has a awesome offence,ones he gets knocked down he is basicly free.

    In Ultra has it comes a lot more down to the Player and the MU.
    Good player make worse characters look Top Tier, best example is Bonchan.
    Or Luffy with Rose, Rose is realy good in Ultra, but still struggels against everything that can just stay in her face and chase her down the whole time.

    Sometimes Tierlists are just a opinion and sometimes they're a fact.
    I think every tierlist in Ultra is just a opinion,otherwise we have ~22 characters in the top 10.

    Tier lists are never fact. Take a look at ST, almost every year the top players sit down and do a comprehensive review of all the match ups and modify the tier lists if they feel things have changed. We're talking about a game that's decades old, extremely simplistic and straight forward and not nearly as many characters as any other street fighter after it. And yet almost every year or two the tier list changes, whether it be extremely minor or even major changes. Chun and DJ have gone from top tier to high tier, cammy has gone from complete ass to mid tier. Thawk has gone from worst character to best character etc etc. Tier lists are not facts at all and just opinions, and SRK, eventhubs, capcomunity, twitter and all these open forums that give people a voice have based their tier lists opinions solely on characters that are winning in tournaments or that Japanese players say who they think top 5 is and it's pretty pathetic. My favorite was back when Nemo started to blow up a bit during the beginning of usf4 because daigo was his training partner and Nemo had the most BP in the arcades as well as his amazing offensive play with rolento. He immediately used that buzz to say that poison was a top 5 character (specifically 4th I think), and tons of people blindly just parroted that statement, the amount of poisons online went up and I even seen some players at locals start trying to use her just because a Japanese player said top 5. What ever ended up with that hype? Almost never see her online being played well, don't see her at the locals anymore and at the high level, she's a pocket character at best and has had less success out of all 5 new characters and arguably the worst of the 5

    How come Poison is barely seen online anymore? What happened?

    I come across a lot of people using Decapre nowadays.
  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    edited December 2015
    Cipher wrote: »
    The Point of some Tierlist is also the personal opinion.
    Last time someone asked Daigo about Tiers he listed Cammy still top 5, no one else does this right now, because we have so many strong players with different strong characters now.

    Cammy is still strong and can do what she did in AE2012.

    Seth is still a strong character,even after all these nerfs.

    E.Ryu is a good character, but has very little health.

    Elena might be good, but I think people just haven't figured out how to shut her down.

    Rolento has a awesome offence,ones he gets knocked down he is basicly free.

    In Ultra has it comes a lot more down to the Player and the MU.
    Good player make worse characters look Top Tier, best example is Bonchan.
    Or Luffy with Rose, Rose is realy good in Ultra, but still struggels against everything that can just stay in her face and chase her down the whole time.

    Sometimes Tierlists are just a opinion and sometimes they're a fact.
    I think every tierlist in Ultra is just a opinion,otherwise we have ~22 characters in the top 10.

    Tier lists are never fact. Take a look at ST, almost every year the top players sit down and do a comprehensive review of all the match ups and modify the tier lists if they feel things have changed. We're talking about a game that's decades old, extremely simplistic and straight forward and not nearly as many characters as any other street fighter after it. And yet almost every year or two the tier list changes, whether it be extremely minor or even major changes. Chun and DJ have gone from top tier to high tier, cammy has gone from complete ass to mid tier. Thawk has gone from worst character to best character etc etc. Tier lists are not facts at all and just opinions, and SRK, eventhubs, capcomunity, twitter and all these open forums that give people a voice have based their tier lists opinions solely on characters that are winning in tournaments or that Japanese players say who they think top 5 is and it's pretty pathetic. My favorite was back when Nemo started to blow up a bit during the beginning of usf4 because daigo was his training partner and Nemo had the most BP in the arcades as well as his amazing offensive play with rolento. He immediately used that buzz to say that poison was a top 5 character (specifically 4th I think), and tons of people blindly just parroted that statement, the amount of poisons online went up and I even seen some players at locals start trying to use her just because a Japanese player said top 5. What ever ended up with that hype? Almost never see her online being played well, don't see her at the locals anymore and at the high level, she's a pocket character at best and has had less success out of all 5 new characters and arguably the worst of the 5

    How come Poison is barely seen online anymore? What happened?

    I come across a lot of people using Decapre nowadays.

    Other characters got better, she got a couple of nerfs, her hurtbox was adjusted. A number of things, plus even at her height of tier listing she wasn't crazy popular. How many people who played Poison at a high level at any point can you think of?

    Meta shifts also affect things as well. To be clear I'm not specifically saying this applies to Poison. However a character could do well or even beat 2/3rds of the cast but doesn't do well vs any of the typically seen tournament / popular characters so you don't see people play them much or get very far. Likewise the reverse, a mediocre character could do very well vs the top tiers or characters commonly seen in tournaments despite his tier placement overall.
    http://ink-gaming.com/ono/doku.php The new home of the Ono Tool official wiki.
  • DelayedWakeUpDelayedWakeUp Realest Nigga Joined: Posts: 117
    Cipher wrote: »
    The Point of some Tierlist is also the personal opinion.
    Last time someone asked Daigo about Tiers he listed Cammy still top 5, no one else does this right now, because we have so many strong players with different strong characters now.

    Cammy is still strong and can do what she did in AE2012.

    Seth is still a strong character,even after all these nerfs.

    E.Ryu is a good character, but has very little health.

    Elena might be good, but I think people just haven't figured out how to shut her down.

    Rolento has a awesome offence,ones he gets knocked down he is basicly free.

    In Ultra has it comes a lot more down to the Player and the MU.
    Good player make worse characters look Top Tier, best example is Bonchan.
    Or Luffy with Rose, Rose is realy good in Ultra, but still struggels against everything that can just stay in her face and chase her down the whole time.

    Sometimes Tierlists are just a opinion and sometimes they're a fact.
    I think every tierlist in Ultra is just a opinion,otherwise we have ~22 characters in the top 10.

    Tier lists are never fact. Take a look at ST, almost every year the top players sit down and do a comprehensive review of all the match ups and modify the tier lists if they feel things have changed. We're talking about a game that's decades old, extremely simplistic and straight forward and not nearly as many characters as any other street fighter after it. And yet almost every year or two the tier list changes, whether it be extremely minor or even major changes. Chun and DJ have gone from top tier to high tier, cammy has gone from complete ass to mid tier. Thawk has gone from worst character to best character etc etc. Tier lists are not facts at all and just opinions, and SRK, eventhubs, capcomunity, twitter and all these open forums that give people a voice have based their tier lists opinions solely on characters that are winning in tournaments or that Japanese players say who they think top 5 is and it's pretty pathetic. My favorite was back when Nemo started to blow up a bit during the beginning of usf4 because daigo was his training partner and Nemo had the most BP in the arcades as well as his amazing offensive play with rolento. He immediately used that buzz to say that poison was a top 5 character (specifically 4th I think), and tons of people blindly just parroted that statement, the amount of poisons online went up and I even seen some players at locals start trying to use her just because a Japanese player said top 5. What ever ended up with that hype? Almost never see her online being played well, don't see her at the locals anymore and at the high level, she's a pocket character at best and has had less success out of all 5 new characters and arguably the worst of the 5

    How come Poison is barely seen online anymore? What happened?

    I come across a lot of people using Decapre nowadays.

    She's not the easiest character to just pick up and play and have fun with. She doesn't have the highest damage on her combos or is the execution easy when all her combos have one frame links in there somewhere. She walks very slow and her buttons start up slow and have very few active frames so you have to be much more precise with your spacing and inputs. She is played extremely lame with fireballs zoning to build meter and chip away at the opponent until she scores a knockdown and then with meter can run some tricky set play.

    People don't want to play that when out of the other 5, you can pick rolento and spam rolls and knives in a more cynical way.

    You can pick Hugo and do hype clap combos and kill anyone in 2 combos

    You could pick Elena and heal 3 times a round and have a hurtbox the size of a piece of paper.

    Or you can pick Decapre and mash hands and spam teleport feints and 50/50 smash's. Oh and don't forget all those wake up stings.
    d3v wrote: »
    Well the primary goal when you engage in a footsies battle is to out space your opponent to create an error so you can punish in a way that allows you to continue to press the advantage. Common examples are whiff punish into knockdown for follow up pressure or mix up, whiff punish into super for high damage while also potentially getting pressure and or mix up afterwards as well.
    False.

    LOL
  • CipherCipher Catchphraser Joined: Posts: 1,893
    How come Poison is barely seen online anymore? What happened?

    I come across a lot of people using Decapre nowadays.

    Online has it's own tierlist.
    It's online much harder to react to some things or punish. Delay,Lag are your worst MU's online.

    Poison actually has to use her head to win.
    Her H Aeolus Edge has very slow startup, what makes it harder to space right. Some chars can just react with a jump-in and Poisons anti-airing isn't the greatest,especialy against divekicks. Her standing hitbox is also gigantic.

    Online heroes are in general characters with either easy execution and gameplay or abuseable things most online players don't know how to deal with.
    I meet some days ago a Blanka with 4kPP and 23KBP. All he did was j.hk and Thunder.
    Now fear this glorious hero!!!!

    SteamId, leave a comment before adding!
    Street Fighter: Cammy, Rose
    Tekken: When's Jun? , Asuka
    Guilty Gear: Ramlethal, Jack-O

    My SFV Cammyguide!
  • HighlandfireballHighlandfireball Are you ready for a war? Joined: Posts: 9,021
    edited December 2015
    Cipher wrote: »
    The Point of some Tierlist is also the personal opinion.
    Last time someone asked Daigo about Tiers he listed Cammy still top 5, no one else does this right now, because we have so many strong players with different strong characters now.

    Cammy is still strong and can do what she did in AE2012.

    Seth is still a strong character,even after all these nerfs.

    E.Ryu is a good character, but has very little health.

    Elena might be good, but I think people just haven't figured out how to shut her down.

    Rolento has a awesome offence,ones he gets knocked down he is basicly free.

    In Ultra has it comes a lot more down to the Player and the MU.
    Good player make worse characters look Top Tier, best example is Bonchan.
    Or Luffy with Rose, Rose is realy good in Ultra, but still struggels against everything that can just stay in her face and chase her down the whole time.

    Sometimes Tierlists are just a opinion and sometimes they're a fact.
    I think every tierlist in Ultra is just a opinion,otherwise we have ~22 characters in the top 10.

    Tier lists are never fact. Take a look at ST, almost every year the top players sit down and do a comprehensive review of all the match ups and modify the tier lists if they feel things have changed. We're talking about a game that's decades old, extremely simplistic and straight forward and not nearly as many characters as any other street fighter after it. And yet almost every year or two the tier list changes, whether it be extremely minor or even major changes. Chun and DJ have gone from top tier to high tier, cammy has gone from complete ass to mid tier. Thawk has gone from worst character to best character etc etc. Tier lists are not facts at all and just opinions, and SRK, eventhubs, capcomunity, twitter and all these open forums that give people a voice have based their tier lists opinions solely on characters that are winning in tournaments or that Japanese players say who they think top 5 is and it's pretty pathetic. My favorite was back when Nemo started to blow up a bit during the beginning of usf4 because daigo was his training partner and Nemo had the most BP in the arcades as well as his amazing offensive play with rolento. He immediately used that buzz to say that poison was a top 5 character (specifically 4th I think), and tons of people blindly just parroted that statement, the amount of poisons online went up and I even seen some players at locals start trying to use her just because a Japanese player said top 5. What ever ended up with that hype? Almost never see her online being played well, don't see her at the locals anymore and at the high level, she's a pocket character at best and has had less success out of all 5 new characters and arguably the worst of the 5

    How come Poison is barely seen online anymore? What happened?

    I come across a lot of people using Decapre nowadays.

    She's not the easiest character to just pick up and play and have fun with. She doesn't have the highest damage on her combos or is the execution easy when all her combos have one frame links in there somewhere. She walks very slow and her buttons start up slow and have very few active frames so you have to be much more precise with your spacing and inputs. She is played extremely lame with fireballs zoning to build meter and chip away at the opponent until she scores a knockdown and then with meter can run some tricky set play.

    People don't want to play that when out of the other 5, you can pick rolento and spam rolls and knives in a more cynical way.

    You can pick Hugo and do hype clap combos and kill anyone in 2 combos

    You could pick Elena and heal 3 times a round and have a hurtbox the size of a piece of paper.

    Or you can pick Decapre and mash hands and spam teleport feints and 50/50 smash's. Oh and don't forget all those wake up stings.

    Sounds like shes low tier, all the skills in the world wouldn't make her good.

    Post edited by Highlandfireball on
  • CipherCipher Catchphraser Joined: Posts: 1,893
    Thank you for your input everyone.

    If Poison is low tier, why is she ranked Top 5 on Eventhubs.com?

    Evethubs Tierlist = The chars people have either no plan how to deal with or don't want to play against.

    I would put Poison upper midtier or hightier. She is good smart played.
    SteamId, leave a comment before adding!
    Street Fighter: Cammy, Rose
    Tekken: When's Jun? , Asuka
    Guilty Gear: Ramlethal, Jack-O

    My SFV Cammyguide!
  • jebopjebop Joined: Posts: 6,890
    Where's all the Hugo players at?
    Making man children cry on this forum is way too easy.
  • HighlandfireballHighlandfireball Are you ready for a war? Joined: Posts: 9,021
    jebop wrote: »
    Where's all the Hugo players at?

    Killing people in 2 combos. Anyone can do it.
  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    edited December 2015
    Asked Julio his thoughts on how to approach the Sim/Yun matchup and how he felt the match up was:
    julio wrote:
    dhalsim has to take advantage of using his head-drill and back fierce to counter yuns divekicks (ex up-blast too)
    dhalsims back roundhouse loses to divekick cause slow start up, back fierce is faster and is more active , good for divekick
    after that just control him on the ground, react to lunges with back rh and always be wary of his air game, its all reaction
    but being a yun player, yun destroys dhalsim if he does sneaky hard to see divekicks to get in

    That sounds kind of like "Sim has options, but he has to play extremely well with no mistakes and if Yun gets in then Sim is screwed. He can do stuff if he is on point though." to me at least.
    Post edited by Eternal on
    http://ink-gaming.com/ono/doku.php The new home of the Ono Tool official wiki.
  • HighlandfireballHighlandfireball Are you ready for a war? Joined: Posts: 9,021
    Eternal wrote: »
    Asked Julio his thoughts on how to approach the Sim/Yun matchup and how he felt the match up was:
    julio wrote:
    dhalsim has to take advantage of using his head-drill and back fierce to counter yuns divekicks (ex up-blast too)
    dhalsims back roundhouse loses to divekick cause slow start up, back fierce is faster and is more active , good for divekick
    after that just control him on the ground, react to lunges with back rh and always be wary of his air game, its all reaction
    but being a yun player, yun destroys dhalsim if he does sneaky hard to see divekicks to get in

    That sounds kind of like "Sim has options, but he has to play extremely well with no mistakes and if Yun gets in then Sim is screwed. He can do stuff if he is on point though." to me at least.

    Which is pretty much what everyone knew already. Play perfect = win. Goes for almost any bad match.

    Although certain characters are immune to mistakes, like Viper or Yun can take gambles almost for free considering the pay offs vs the risk.
  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    edited December 2015
    Eternal wrote: »
    Asked Julio his thoughts on how to approach the Sim/Yun matchup and how he felt the match up was:
    julio wrote:
    dhalsim has to take advantage of using his head-drill and back fierce to counter yuns divekicks (ex up-blast too)
    dhalsims back roundhouse loses to divekick cause slow start up, back fierce is faster and is more active , good for divekick
    after that just control him on the ground, react to lunges with back rh and always be wary of his air game, its all reaction
    but being a yun player, yun destroys dhalsim if he does sneaky hard to see divekicks to get in

    That sounds kind of like "Sim has options, but he has to play extremely well with no mistakes and if Yun gets in then Sim is screwed. He can do stuff if he is on point though." to me at least.

    Which is pretty much what everyone knew already. Play perfect = win. Goes for almost any bad match.

    Although certain characters are immune to mistakes, like Viper or Yun can take gambles almost for free considering the pay offs vs the risk.

    I think he is saying it's more winnable though than some say despite being very hard as Sim actually has options while many feel he doesn't. Some feel Sim just doesn't have any tools that are effective in the MU to start with. Julio seems to say that he can do stuff if you know what / where to do it, however the risk if you fail is very high.
    http://ink-gaming.com/ono/doku.php The new home of the Ono Tool official wiki.
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