USF4 Tier List Thread (updated October 2015)

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  • HighlandfireballHighlandfireball Are you ready for a war? Joined: Posts: 8,763
    Eternal wrote: »
    Eternal wrote: »
    Asked Julio his thoughts on how to approach the Sim/Yun matchup and how he felt the match up was:
    julio wrote:
    dhalsim has to take advantage of using his head-drill and back fierce to counter yuns divekicks (ex up-blast too)
    dhalsims back roundhouse loses to divekick cause slow start up, back fierce is faster and is more active , good for divekick
    after that just control him on the ground, react to lunges with back rh and always be wary of his air game, its all reaction
    but being a yun player, yun destroys dhalsim if he does sneaky hard to see divekicks to get in

    That sounds kind of like "Sim has options, but he has to play extremely well with no mistakes and if Yun gets in then Sim is screwed. He can do stuff if he is on point though." to me at least.

    Which is pretty much what everyone knew already. Play perfect = win. Goes for almost any bad match.

    Although certain characters are immune to mistakes, like Viper or Yun can take gambles almost for free considering the pay offs vs the risk.

    I think he is saying it's more winnable though than some say despite being very hard as Sim actually has options while many feel he doesn't. Some feel Sim just doesn't have any tools that are effective in the MU to start with. Julio seems to say that he can do stuff if you know what / where to do it, however the risk if you fail is very high.

    It's still the definition of a bad match, things change of course, but it's going to take the Sim player more time ( years?) and more experience than the Yun player can even dream of. Experience only runs forwards in time.

    That's why I don't get when people ( that other guy) say " Oh look at this match where T Hawk beats Blanka! Proof! " When in reality it's probably taken thousands of game hours, training and experience to even get to that point in the match closer to equal and the concentration levels between players isn't even close. Hell you could go 2 editions of the game before figuring out counters.

    Imagine Fang from SF5 wins the next 3 tourneys because he's a horrid match up for Zangief, BUT in 3 years time with all the effort that players have put in , it ends up fine, more like a 5-5. Fang players still won the cash and took the prize because they're gameplay was easy to apply at that time and Gief players didn't have the luxury of high level technology developed through mass hours.

    Back in the day you had to figure shit out on the fly. It's so much easier now.
  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    edited December 2015
    Eternal wrote: »
    Eternal wrote: »
    Asked Julio his thoughts on how to approach the Sim/Yun matchup and how he felt the match up was:
    julio wrote:
    dhalsim has to take advantage of using his head-drill and back fierce to counter yuns divekicks (ex up-blast too)
    dhalsims back roundhouse loses to divekick cause slow start up, back fierce is faster and is more active , good for divekick
    after that just control him on the ground, react to lunges with back rh and always be wary of his air game, its all reaction
    but being a yun player, yun destroys dhalsim if he does sneaky hard to see divekicks to get in

    That sounds kind of like "Sim has options, but he has to play extremely well with no mistakes and if Yun gets in then Sim is screwed. He can do stuff if he is on point though." to me at least.

    Which is pretty much what everyone knew already. Play perfect = win. Goes for almost any bad match.

    Although certain characters are immune to mistakes, like Viper or Yun can take gambles almost for free considering the pay offs vs the risk.

    I think he is saying it's more winnable though than some say despite being very hard as Sim actually has options while many feel he doesn't. Some feel Sim just doesn't have any tools that are effective in the MU to start with. Julio seems to say that he can do stuff if you know what / where to do it, however the risk if you fail is very high.

    It's still the definition of a bad match, things change of course, but it's going to take the Sim player more time ( years?) and more experience than the Yun player can even dream of. Experience only runs forwards in time.

    That's why I don't get when people ( that other guy) say " Oh look at this match where T Hawk beats Blanka! Proof! " When in reality it's probably taken thousands of game hours, training and experience to even get to that point in the match closer to equal and the concentration levels between players isn't even close. Hell you could go 2 editions of the game before figuring out counters.

    Imagine Fang from SF5 wins the next 3 tourneys because he's a horrid match up for Zangief, BUT in 3 years time with all the effort that players have put in , it ends up fine, more like a 5-5. Fang players still won the cash and took the prize because they're gameplay was easy to apply at that time and Gief players didn't have the luxury of high level technology developed through mass hours.

    Back in the day you had to figure shit out on the fly. It's so much easier now.

    While I'm not agreeing with, or disagreeing with anyone on this I think that the discussion of tiers is viewing a MU between based on knowing what to do, when to do it, and how to execute it properly. Then you add in the players on top of that layer to see who sinks or swims to the potential values based on human abilities. Tiers change however as new techniques and options are explored as you noted. Tiers are measured based on the information and ideas on hand at the time they were created. What may seem like the ideal route could turn out to have a counter not yet found that someone could introduce by going against the accepted "correct" way to play the match, or simply introducing something new into it. In addition you can win matches by playing them "wrong" and putting the opponent on tilt. Playing to the player not the character.

    Showing players playing the match is a double edged sword. On one hand it's the only way to really show how a match would play out at all as it's the most true testing grounds, the real world. However it's also the least scientific as it adds so many additional variables that cannot be controlled. Different players add different styles, knowledge, reactions, habits, and more. In addition you have the Online vs Offline which is also split again with Side By Side vs Head To Head offline play which changes styles and abilities to react to things.

    I've talked with David about Hakan's potential and hes told me that despite how much he talks about it people just can't wrap their heads around it until he sits them down and shows them things in person. Not necessarily "beats them in a match" but actually shows them how these tools can be used in a match.

    Which brings me to the last thing, something I agree with you on, posting a match where a player wins/loses isn't entirely indicative of the matchup's difficulty. Not just because players abilities can change day to day and that add tons of variables to the equation. It's more important to look at where/when the players are interacting and how. Not the final result.

    It's kind of like when you hear "So and so got bodied, he lost 4-10 in a FT10" but then you go and see that every single match came down to the last round and often the rounds were ending where both players were on their last 10% health or something. Yeah, obviously the better player won, and consistently, but with all matches being extremely close you shouldn't really call it a bodying. Even if you only care just on who won or lost to make your point it can be presented in two very different ways to give two very different views.

    If you listed a match as being lost 4 to 10 it sounds pretty awful. He only won 28.5% of the matches played. However if you do it by rounds the number suddenly looks much more palatable. If every match went down to round 3 then 4 to 10 would be 18 to 24. That would be 42.8% of the rounds played. A huge jump just based on how the data is presented.

    Ultimately though I think that it's best to concentrate more on analyzing how the match up is being played, and where the losses/wins are occurring over concentrating strictly on the score. The final score IS important though.
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  • ThatJollyOlBastidThatJollyOlBastid soon Joined: Posts: 19,826
    ilitirit wrote: »
    The last few pages of this thread gave me cancer.

    nothings changed around here

    whats the current meta look like?
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  • DelayedWakeUpDelayedWakeUp Realest Nigga Joined: Posts: 117
    Nah man yun vs dhalsim is easily 8-2 and nigh unwinnable and even if yun didn't have a dive kick he would still body dhalsim to the nigh unwinnable degree that he does with it.
    #nighunwinnable
    d3v wrote: »
    Well the primary goal when you engage in a footsies battle is to out space your opponent to create an error so you can punish in a way that allows you to continue to press the advantage. Common examples are whiff punish into knockdown for follow up pressure or mix up, whiff punish into super for high damage while also potentially getting pressure and or mix up afterwards as well.
    False.

    LOL
  • DelayedWakeUpDelayedWakeUp Realest Nigga Joined: Posts: 117
    S+ Comprehension
    A Evil Ryu/Ken
    B Ibuki/Elena

    New mechanics everyone hates - Delayed wake up.

    That was slick, I like that
    d3v wrote: »
    Well the primary goal when you engage in a footsies battle is to out space your opponent to create an error so you can punish in a way that allows you to continue to press the advantage. Common examples are whiff punish into knockdown for follow up pressure or mix up, whiff punish into super for high damage while also potentially getting pressure and or mix up afterwards as well.
    False.

    LOL
  • jebopjebop Joined: Posts: 6,890
    ilitirit wrote: »
    The last few pages of this thread gave me cancer.

    But ... But ... But .... Dhalsim vs Yun is like a 5-5 everyone is just playing it wrong!

    Reminds me of my friend who finally rage quit SF4. "Every match is 5-5 you scrubs, it's the players... Fuck man, why is Dan so shit in this game? He always actually competitive in Alpha!"
    Making man children cry on this forum is way too easy.
  • Marmalade_JonesMarmalade_Jones Joined: Posts: 337
    Yun Vs Dhalsim is nigh unwinnable. Unless the Yun plays incredibly stupid, of course. Sim cannot win that match. It's awful.

    Poison Vs Hugo sucks pretty bad, too. That has to be an 8-2 match-up or worse.

    Nah I don't think Yun v. Sim is nigh unwinnable. It's a solid 7-3 MU. Fuerte, Decapre, Hakan, Makoto, and Abel are all more difficult to win than Yun.
  • TheFreshPrinceTheFreshPrince Sold so many chickens think I work for Kroger Joined: Posts: 3,725
    I've always considered 7-3 to be almost unwinnable, and there's no way in hell that Yun only goes 6-4 against Sim.
    You just can't handle the fresh prince.

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  • DelayedWakeUpDelayedWakeUp Realest Nigga Joined: Posts: 117
    Poison vs Hugo isn't a 10-0 poison match up anymore since 1.04 when Hugo got the clap buff to go through fireballs and still hit the opponent.

    Pretty much Hugo had almost no way to get in against poison mixing up her fireballs, but especially against the heavy fireball because she legitimately could hide behind it with no way for Hugo to get around it, if he jumped and pressed a button he would get hit by it, and if he empty jumped at that range to get over, he would just get anti aired and pushed out again. At the ranges where he could clap the heavy fireball, poison would recover first and punish with low forward into Rekka > back dash > meaty medium fireball > safe heavy fireball and start the zone again. His only way to even out the neutral is to get super but he would die before he would get super, and he wouldn't get super more then once a match if that.

    Now that the clap can break fireballs and hit the opponent, he has a large area where he can threaten the clap against her, because he will go through a heavy fireball and hit her into a full clap combo. He literally can spam claps all day and get super every round and then poison can't throw a single fireball, and her normals are lack luster in keeping him out just on normals.

    I played stormkubo at Canada cup in a money match, I got bodied 3-1, yea he didn't think it was a bad match up at all anymore
    d3v wrote: »
    Well the primary goal when you engage in a footsies battle is to out space your opponent to create an error so you can punish in a way that allows you to continue to press the advantage. Common examples are whiff punish into knockdown for follow up pressure or mix up, whiff punish into super for high damage while also potentially getting pressure and or mix up afterwards as well.
    False.

    LOL
  • Marmalade_JonesMarmalade_Jones Joined: Posts: 337
    I've always considered 7-3 to be almost unwinnable, and there's no way in hell that Yun only goes 6-4 against Sim.

    Im not sure if you're referring to my post, but I did state that I think Yun v. Sim is a solid 7-3 MU.

    MU number definitions are subjective. The characters I listed above feel nigh unwinnable for Sim. Yun feels fair compared to them.



  • Sephiroth73003Sephiroth73003 Joined: Posts: 4,288
    So been playing Juri a lot recently. Not 100% sure who her bad matchups are but other then Yun and Sakura not really having any matchup where I feel overwhelmed. Also lots of easy matchups like vs Sagat or any grappler. She just has so many options and an anti-air j.MP is 280 damage for 1 EX bar. Feng Shui with 1 guess can literally rape some characters like Rose to death. She seems really underutilized unless I'm missing something.

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  • jebopjebop Joined: Posts: 6,890
    Bison > Juri. Especially with the ex scissors buff, you have 0 way of keeping him out.
    Making man children cry on this forum is way too easy.
  • Sephiroth73003Sephiroth73003 Joined: Posts: 4,288
    edited December 2015
    jebop wrote: »
    Bison > Juri. Especially with the ex scissors buff, you have 0 way of keeping him out.

    Given this is a matchup I've played a lot with her so far I don't get it. You just have to not do stuff when he has charge like every other fireball character, the recovery on her fireballs is actually worse then Ryu's by 1 frame. Her footsie game does well against him and if he gets caught without meter or in the corner she can give him a pretty hefty paddling. If she has a fireball stocked with 2 meters a random whiff punish or cr. MK confirms into massive corner carry and a knockdown. j. FP does really well against his anti airs and she has EX divekick to get in for free at + frames if she can get a fireball on screen. She can low profile a lot of his aerial stuff with cr. MK making stomp and devil's reverse terrible options. Not to mention she deals ALOT more damage per hit and st. MK > normal scissor pressure all day. st. LK will also punish MK scissors no matter how well spaced and is a good poke against scissors pressure also. She has a lot of true block strings and if you try to reversal and fail in the middle of a block string she can cancel into EX fireballs to keep them locked down into all sorts of disgusting pressure.

    Not only that after a pinwheel in the corner she can dash under him then cross back up in front destroying his charge so he can't EX psycho out of stuff. She can also do this when she is in Feng Shui forcing him to block out of a 50/50 400 dmg potential combo. Her st. LK also is fast enough to be meaty and block all of his reversals. Her overhead can beat out EX Psycho crusher also so yeah.

    Yeah ... no ... I really don't see that one.
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  • DelayedWakeUpDelayedWakeUp Realest Nigga Joined: Posts: 117
    edited December 2015
    Fireball frame data is mad confusing since sometimes the recovery already adds the start up in it and sometimes it doesn't. But I'm pretty sure that the release of juris fireball isn't worse then ryus and actually a lot better at 33F
    d3v wrote: »
    Well the primary goal when you engage in a footsies battle is to out space your opponent to create an error so you can punish in a way that allows you to continue to press the advantage. Common examples are whiff punish into knockdown for follow up pressure or mix up, whiff punish into super for high damage while also potentially getting pressure and or mix up afterwards as well.
    False.

    LOL
  • Sephiroth73003Sephiroth73003 Joined: Posts: 4,288
    edited December 2015
    Fireball frame data is mad confusing since sometimes the recovery already adds the start up in it and sometimes it doesn't. But I'm pretty sure that the release if juris fireball isn't 44 frames, I think it's 33

    It is 33 the USFIV wiki says Ryu's is 32.

    http://wiki.shoryuken.com/Ultra_Street_Fighter_IV/Ryu

    Seemed odd but now that I look at Sagat's it says 45 ... shit seems off. Ryu's is probably just wrong.
    SF3: Makoto and Ken
  • DelayedWakeUpDelayedWakeUp Realest Nigga Joined: Posts: 117
    edited December 2015
    Fireball frame data is mad confusing since sometimes the recovery already adds the start up in it and sometimes it doesn't. But I'm pretty sure that the release if juris fireball isn't 44 frames, I think it's 33

    It is 33 the USFIV wiki says Ryu's is 32.

    http://wiki.shoryuken.com/Ultra_Street_Fighter_IV/Ryu

    Seemed odd but now that I look at Sagat's it says 45 ... shit seems off. Ryu's is probably just wrong.

    Ryus is 45 total frame count, juris is 33

    So for Ryu it is 13+32 and juri is 11+22
    d3v wrote: »
    Well the primary goal when you engage in a footsies battle is to out space your opponent to create an error so you can punish in a way that allows you to continue to press the advantage. Common examples are whiff punish into knockdown for follow up pressure or mix up, whiff punish into super for high damage while also potentially getting pressure and or mix up afterwards as well.
    False.

    LOL
  • AceKombatAceKombat (́◕◞౪◟◕‵) ”WINNERS DON’T USE ALMIGHTY.” Joined: Posts: 2,067
    Ken's recovery on fireball is also wrong in the SRK Frame Data section.
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  • otoriotori RTSD Joined: Posts: 6,165
    Yun's bad matchups according to kazunoko: bonchan, momochi, boxer and elena
  • jebopjebop Joined: Posts: 6,890
    otori wrote: »
    Yun's bad matchups according to kazunoko: bonchan, momochi, boxer and elena

    ... and Tiger Knee (-_-).
    Making man children cry on this forum is way too easy.
  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    edited December 2015
    AceKombat wrote: »
    Ken's recovery on fireball is also wrong in the SRK Frame Data section.

    I see the problem, thanks. The old wikis put recovery section for fireballs as the total frames. So 47 is the actual total frame count, the 63 is automatically generated based on the rest of the values put in. I'll fix it. I guess I forgot to fix that when I altered others. I'll check other fireballs to make sure I got em all.

    Edit: I changed them according to the data in the guide books but I'm not entirely comfortable with those numbers as many of the totals didn't match the old totals. However at the moment my computer isn't set up to be able to record and frame check everything due to fresh format.
    Post edited by Eternal on
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  • otoriotori RTSD Joined: Posts: 6,165
    I think they overdid the nerfs to Cammy. Shitastic damage and stun now holy shit.
  • jebopjebop Joined: Posts: 6,890
    Nothing is wrong with Cammy.
    Making man children cry on this forum is way too easy.
  • CipherCipher Catchphraser Joined: Posts: 1,819
    jebop wrote: »
    Nothing is wrong with Cammy.

    You need a brain for her now, thats a good reason to drop her and switch to Yun or E.Ryu.
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  • Sephiroth73003Sephiroth73003 Joined: Posts: 4,288
    Eh the stun needed to be toned down they probably could have left a little bit more of the damage.
    SF3: Makoto and Ken
  • carupscarups Joined: Posts: 475
    edited January 2016
    I only started maining Cammy after Ultra and I think she's pretty strong, but it does seem like Yun does a very similar job much better (and red focus was made for him). And 1f links with strongs or fierces are not really a problem if you can plink.

    The thing is to me it seems like she's a beast due to good design. Her soft knockdowns, jump distance and arc, divekick angle and knockdown distance all work together really well.
  • MachoRhombusMachoRhombus Joined: Posts: 2,881
    So.

    Can we finally agree that the game's matchups were not a collection of 5-5's and 6-4's and that the game actually had more 7-3's and 8-2's by now? I mean, the game is not the main focus anymore, not many feelings will be hurt, we can admit it now.
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  • LoyalSolLoyalSol Drunken Akuma Joined: Posts: 6,905
    edited February 2016
    So.

    Can we finally agree that the game's matchups were not a collection of 5-5's and 6-4's and that the game actually had more 7-3's and 8-2's by now? I mean, the game is not the main focus anymore, not many feelings will be hurt, we can admit it now.

    Actually I really can't admit it because there weren't many match ups that felt absolutely horrible even when I was playing T-Hawk back in AE 2012. And usually those type of match ups were concentrated to characters who typically had multiple 3-7 or 2-8 match ups because of a glaring flaw in their design.
    Under stress you will not rise to your expectations, you will fall to your level of training.
  • HeavensCloudHeavensCloud Joined: Posts: 781
    edited February 2016
    So.

    Can we finally agree that the game's matchups were not a collection of 5-5's and 6-4's and that the game actually had more 7-3's and 8-2's by now? I mean, the game is not the main focus anymore, not many feelings will be hurt, we can admit it now.

    I can see a lot of Zangief players thinking this way to be honest but that doesn't necessarily mean it's true. There's a lot of non-polarizing characters with a shit ton of 5-5 and 6-4/4-6 matchups.
  • Mike RobertsonMike Robertson Joined: Posts: 942
    Yun Vs Dhalsim is nigh unwinnable. Unless the Yun plays incredibly stupid, of course. Sim cannot win that match. It's awful.

    Poison Vs Hugo sucks pretty bad, too. That has to be an 8-2 match-up or worse.

    ryan hart got bodied by snafoo at canada cup. i know it was not his main but his yun is legit
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