Unlisted Changes in USF4

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  • GearTypeGearType Joined: Posts: 58
    Is there a Guile freeze?
  • MalvadiscoMalvadisco Marambio Joined: Posts: 2,967
    can i play with sub zero?
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  • stabicronstabicron CTRL ALT PSYCHOCRUSHER Joined: Posts: 2,065
    tali wrote: »
    has bison's ex psycho crusher have a smaller gap to be thrown in start up? maybe its just me, but i have found that i don't throw it on start up nearly as often as i used to.

    I wish but it is still the same gap to throw him as far as I can tell
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  • jebopjebop Joined: Posts: 6,890
    Eternal wrote: »
    Clamper wrote: »
    "M. Bison - EX Headpress is no longer a hard knockdown when hitting an airborne opponent."

    Screw this. Why Capcom feels the need to nerf Bison even in a minor patch?

    Turns out I was wrong on this one. I had assumed it was hard knockdown removed because they removed the new flag they use on all hardknockdowns (miscflag 16) but it wasn't a hard knockdown in USF4 1.0 either editing my posts.
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  • Jav1tsJav1ts Joined: Posts: 313
    Gouken's Denjin Hadoken in Ultra W deals inconsistent stun when you fully charge it. It goes as low as 520 and as high as 660. Can someone figure out what's going on here?
  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    Jav1ts wrote: »
    Gouken's Denjin Hadoken in Ultra W deals inconsistent stun when you fully charge it. It goes as low as 520 and as high as 660. Can someone figure out what's going on here?

    Well some more specifics into the situations it's causing 660 would have been nice... found it on my own though when you report things in the future it's a good idea to be more thorough.

    Anyways this is more a bug than an unlisted change. Seems to do with how far you are from the opponent when you release but then there are odd monkey wrenches confusing me further. If you release a level 5 and then dash forward and get closer before the fireball hits then you get 695 stun.

    Here is the thing for sure, at point blank all hits do 65stun. Max range first 4hits do 65 last 4 do 100stun.

    Dash up after max range it's 65x3 100x5 (695)

    Charge + spin stick to make fireball move faster it's 65x5 100x3 (590)

    I'm not sure the REASON for the bug yet but I can replicate it easily.
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  • Nu-SkooolNu-Skoool Pushing buttons is fun Joined: Posts: 940
    For Akuma I've noticed cr.mk has a small amount of forward momentum. For example, cr. mkxx lk tatsu will hit from further out than if you used a cr. mp, so it's not only caused by the increased hitbox size of lk tatsu. On most of the cast the increased distance is about .5-1 small training room squares. This is also something that's never been noted in older versions, in fact tatsu often whiffs after cr.mk at just about anything more than point blank.
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  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    Nu-Skoool wrote: »
    For Akuma I've noticed cr.mk has a small amount of forward momentum. For example, cr. mkxx lk tatsu will hit from further out than if you used a cr. mp, so it's not only caused by the increased hitbox size of lk tatsu. On most of the cast the increased distance is about .5-1 small training room squares. This is also something that's never been noted in older versions, in fact tatsu often whiffs after cr.mk at just about anything more than point blank.

    Different moves have different cancel positions. These aren't things that are changeable AFAIK. They've never done it before and instead have used other ways to get around the cancel position for different moves by making new versions of moves when canceled from specific normals (such as Gouken's farMP - MP Palm or chun li's closeHP - HK SBK). The cancel position is coded into the actual animation file itself.

    No such change was made to Akuma's LK Tatsu, I think it's entirely from the hitbox changes interacting differently than you're used to. Nothing in the character files indicates any change.
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  • GamogoGamogo Common sense isn't. Joined: Posts: 2,906
    Akuma's c.mk xx lk tatsu has always been the preferred go-to against Blanka due to his wonky hitbox and the fact that c.mk shifted Akuma forward a little.

    Keep in mind that lk tatsu also received a slight extension to the hitbox forward in Ultra, which is definitely noticeable. So c.mk combined with the extended reach of lk tatsu would amplify this further still.
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  • gutabogutabo Joined: Posts: 288
    Eternal wrote: »
    gutabo wrote: »
    Honda's EX hands have more forward movement and have less pushback on hit/block. Seems like the purpose of this change is to him to be able to conect after EX hands a full crouching jab into fierce hands, standing roundhouse on most of the cast. Previously this wasn't the case.

    Pushback and forward movement are unchanged. The difference is that EX Hands puts the opponent into hitstop for 1F longer than before. Previously both Honda and opponent were in hitstop for 4F each hit. Now Honda is in hitstop 4F and opponent for 5F. This means that Honda gets to move 1F before the opponent's pushback takes effect allowing him to gain more ground.

    The reason for this was just because of how Capcom handled a bunch of characters frame advantage changes was to adjust hitstop instead of hitstun. Capcom wanted Honda to be +5F after EX HHS. Instead of adjusting hitstun or reducing the recovery for EX HHS they simply made it so Honda was in hitstop less time than the opponent. This creates some oddities. They did similar changes for things like the frame advantage change to Blanka's crMK or Cody's crMK. The change wasn't done specifically for the reason of making Honda able to get closer, it was done because that was simply the main method Capcom was employing to change frame advantage for A LOT of moves and it had unintended side effects.

    I understand what you're saying but my experience is different. Since I don't own the game I had to wait to do this test again:
    - Select (whatever version) Dictator vs AE2012 Honda
    - Recorded Honda neutral jumping, holding down forward and mashing LP+MP from round start distance.
    - Honda's 6th hit of EX hands hit dictator, 7th whiffed because Dictator is too far away. Tried many times, every time with the same result.
    - Went back to character select, picked same Dictator(of course), Ultra Honda now.
    - Played the recording. Honda's 6th AND 7th hit now hit Dictator, Honda's now able to continue the combo.
    - Repeated same test with other timings, got same result.
    - Switched players, now picked Honda as first character, Dictator as dummy, repeated the test, same results.

    As a long time Honda main at first I had just a feeling that he was closer to his opponents after ex hands(or that he was not getting as further away as he should) but after doing some testing I'm positive that's the case.
  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    edited October 2014
    gutabo wrote: »
    Eternal wrote: »
    gutabo wrote: »
    Honda's EX hands have more forward movement and have less pushback on hit/block. Seems like the purpose of this change is to him to be able to conect after EX hands a full crouching jab into fierce hands, standing roundhouse on most of the cast. Previously this wasn't the case.

    Pushback and forward movement are unchanged. The difference is that EX Hands puts the opponent into hitstop for 1F longer than before. Previously both Honda and opponent were in hitstop for 4F each hit. Now Honda is in hitstop 4F and opponent for 5F. This means that Honda gets to move 1F before the opponent's pushback takes effect allowing him to gain more ground.

    The reason for this was just because of how Capcom handled a bunch of characters frame advantage changes was to adjust hitstop instead of hitstun. Capcom wanted Honda to be +5F after EX HHS. Instead of adjusting hitstun or reducing the recovery for EX HHS they simply made it so Honda was in hitstop less time than the opponent. This creates some oddities. They did similar changes for things like the frame advantage change to Blanka's crMK or Cody's crMK. The change wasn't done specifically for the reason of making Honda able to get closer, it was done because that was simply the main method Capcom was employing to change frame advantage for A LOT of moves and it had unintended side effects.

    I understand what you're saying but my experience is different. Since I don't own the game I had to wait to do this test again:
    - Select (whatever version) Dictator vs AE2012 Honda
    - Recorded Honda neutral jumping, holding down forward and mashing LP+MP from round start distance.
    - Honda's 6th hit of EX hands hit dictator, 7th whiffed because Dictator is too far away. Tried many times, every time with the same result.
    - Went back to character select, picked same Dictator(of course), Ultra Honda now.
    - Played the recording. Honda's 6th AND 7th hit now hit Dictator, Honda's now able to continue the combo.
    - Repeated same test with other timings, got same result.
    - Switched players, now picked Honda as first character, Dictator as dummy, repeated the test, same results.

    As a long time Honda main at first I had just a feeling that he was closer to his opponents after ex hands(or that he was not getting as further away as he should) but after doing some testing I'm positive that's the case.

    That still all applies with changed hitstop. holding down + forward means you are moving forward due to how EX Hands works as you know. When characters are stuck in hitstop nobody moves, you can't move forward and the opponent doesn't get pushed back more. It doesn't matter who is player 1 and who is player 2, it doesn't matter if it's a recording or not. Hit stop doesn't prevent you from inputting things. Actually it's designed to help because without it it's very difficult to input a cancel it's a feature of the attack itself. Because Honda is in hitstop for 1F less he can move forward before pushback starts taking place thus he gets closer.


    It's like this

    Old version
    [1F] Honda+Bison stuck in place unable to do anything
    [2F] Honda+Bison stuck in place unable to do anything
    [3F] Honda+Bison stuck in place unable to do anything
    [4F] Honda+Bison stuck in place unable to do anything
    [5F] Honda+Bison stuck in place unable to do anything
    [6F] Honda and Bison are no longer stuck in hitstop. Bison's pushback starts moving him backwards on this frame. Honda is able to start moving forwards again using EX HHS. Both characters start moving at the same time. The time between hits of HHS starts counting down now.

    New version
    [1F] Honda+Bison stuck in place unable to do anything
    [2F] Honda+Bison stuck in place unable to do anything
    [3F] Honda+Bison stuck in place unable to do anything
    [4F] Honda+Bison stuck in place unable to do anything
    [5F] Bison is stuck in place unable to do anything. Honda is able to move forward using EX HHS, in addition the startup of the next hit of EX HHS starts now
    [6F] Bison starts moving backwards from getting hit by EX HHS. Honda has already moved forward for 1F. The startup of the next hit of EX HHS has already gone on for 1F


    Each time Honda hits he gets like a little head start to move forward and get closer to Bison. As long as you are holding Down+Forward you'll move. The recording is only reading your inputs and repeating them. If you were holding forward in one recording it's going to keep holding forward at the same time you play it with another character.
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  • gutabogutabo Joined: Posts: 288
    edited October 2014
    Eternal wrote: »
    That still all applies with changed hitstop. holding down + forward means you are moving forward due to how EX Hands works as you know. When characters are stuck in hitstop nobody moves, you can't move forward and the opponent doesn't get pushed back more. It doesn't matter who is player 1 and who is player 2, it doesn't matter if it's a recording or not. Hit stop doesn't prevent you from inputting things. Actually it's designed to help because without it it's very difficult to input a cancel it's a feature of the attack itself. Because Honda is in hitstop for 1F less he can move forward before pushback starts taking place thus he gets closer.

    It's like this

    Old version
    [1F] Honda+Bison stuck in place unable to do anything
    [2F] Honda+Bison stuck in place unable to do anything
    [3F] Honda+Bison stuck in place unable to do anything
    [4F] Honda+Bison stuck in place unable to do anything
    [5F] Honda+Bison stuck in place unable to do anything
    [6F] Honda and Bison are no longer stuck in hitstop. Bison's pushback starts moving him backwards on this frame. Honda is able to start moving forwards again using EX HHS. Both characters start moving at the same time. The time between hits of HHS starts counting down now.

    New version
    [1F] Honda+Bison stuck in place unable to do anything
    [2F] Honda+Bison stuck in place unable to do anything
    [3F] Honda+Bison stuck in place unable to do anything
    [4F] Honda+Bison stuck in place unable to do anything
    [5F] Bison is stuck in place unable to do anything. Honda is able to move forward using EX HHS, in addition the startup of the next hit of EX HHS starts now
    [6F] Bison starts moving backwards from getting hit by EX HHS. Honda has already moved forward for 1F. The startup of the next hit of EX HHS has already gone on for 1F


    Each time Honda hits he gets like a little head start to move forward and get closer to Bison. As long as you are holding Down+Forward you'll move. The recording is only reading your inputs and repeating them. If you were holding forward in one recording it's going to keep holding forward at the same time you play it with another character.

    I fully understand what you're saying(the frame stuff, the hitstop/startup/recovery stuff and the direction stuff), I just thought the "one less frame of hitstop" change only was applied to the last hit(which would give Honda the +5 instead of the +4). I had no idea it was aplied to all 7 hits of EX hands. Makes sense because when it fully hits he does end up closer to the opponents than before and the code for ex hands has not being changed in any other way. Thanks!
  • VeggeyVeggey Joined: Posts: 391
    The Zangief change about EX-GH traveling as far on whiff as on hit I can confirm. It was a real anoying thing in AE and v.2012 that when u whiffed ur EX-Hand, you would be put backwards, making neutraljump guessing better if you where to do SPD, LPGH --> EX-GH as the NJ would beat it out.
  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    edited October 2014
    Veggey wrote: »
    The Zangief change about EX-GH traveling as far on whiff as on hit I can confirm. It was a real anoying thing in AE and v.2012 that when u whiffed ur EX-Hand, you would be put backwards, making neutraljump guessing better if you where to do SPD, LPGH --> EX-GH as the NJ would beat it out.

    Thanks, I actually have some tools to test stuff now that I couldn't before. I should get around to doing so.

    Edit: There we go, tested some of the easier stuff real fast. The rest will take a bit longer to test.
    Post edited by Eternal on
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  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    Updated to cross off the stuff changed in the upcoming Oct 15th update. Once Dantarion runs the new files through the USF4 Dif checker I'll go through each file to find any other unlisted changes.
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  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    Waiting for Dantarion to run the files through UltraDif so I don't have to look at every single damn line to find changes. However something interesting: there is a Poison file included in the latest update. No mention of Poison in the change log.
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  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    Updated with findings for October 15th 2014 update. Pretty sparse, though it was a really small update to begin with.
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  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    Added a cammy change in Ultra console release that I missed previously due to the weird ways that they changed hitstun/hitstop. Cammy's crHP now only gets +3F on counterhit, previously her crHP got +4F on counterhit.
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  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    edited November 2014
    tali wrote: »
    Eternal wrote: »
    Added a cammy change in Ultra console release that I missed previously due to the weird ways that they changed hitstun/hitstop. Cammy's crHP now only gets +3F on counterhit, previously her crHP got +4F on counterhit.

    it still links into ultra on counter hit, and ultra starts up in 10 frames, while cr.hp is +6 regularly.

    +9F according to 4 attempts at a jump frame test comparison. Doesn't link to ultra in my tests vs every character I tested (about a dozen). James Chen said it only works vs specific characters due to not hitting first frame.

    Files show a 2F reduction in frame advantage on counterhit while only a 1F reduction on regular hit.

    Everything points to you being incorrect on this except in rare cases. Did you actually test it or just go by a video you saw?

    Giving you another chance to not be a dbag about this because accuracy is important and I don't want to be wrong and hey, you're taking some time to actually post (and MAYBE have tested it?) so I'll be nice. Plus I figure you got a warning + jailed so maybe you've calmed down. Not trying to be rude by bringing that up, just my thought process behind actually reading your post this time despite having you on ignore and having so much bad history with you.
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  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    Did it tool assisted this time, videos still showing +9F but can link to ultra on everyone I tested via tool assistance. Did some other tests, made crHP cause negative pushback and then removed the first active frame from closeHK (making it 10F startup) CH crHP wouldn't link. Removed the first 3F active of EX Spiral Arrow (making it 10F startup) wouldn't link even with tool assistance.

    Tried punishing -9F moves such as Yun's HP Lunge and Guy's DF+HK with reversal Ultra 1, was blocked. My best guess is that due to the way that they changed HITSTOP on crHP there is some weird frame rounding going on when entering the super freeze for ultra 1.

    Previously:

    crHP had 22F hitstun and 12F hitstop (the period of time where characters are frozen.) on counterhit she had 26F hitstun and 12F hitstop.

    NOW:

    crHP has 20F hitstun and 11F hitstop but the opponent still has 12F hitstop, this means that Cammy starts recovering 1F before the opponent starts reeling. This results in only a 1F loss of frame advantage even though she lost 2F hitstun. On counterhit she has 23F hitstun and 11F hitstop with opponent having 12F. That should be only +3F additional frame advantage over regular while her old one had +4F.

    Experimentation and modification shows this to be true. Videos show her as +9F, changing moves to be 10F startup can't combo after crHP on counterhit. EXCEPT for Ultra 1 which CAN combo. The most likely explanation is frame rounding due to super freeze, something that has been known to allow moves to link in situations they shouldn't, such as Gouken doing F+MP and linking to his Super. Or Ryu able to punish SOME -2F moves both not others using his super.

    In regards to Poison's DP that is correct, how it's something that would be mentioned on the wiki rather than in here.
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  • DooplissDoopliss Joined: Posts: 3,181
    edited December 2014
    Is it known the charge time for Bison's U1 is only 40f? Thought that change was only for U2. Also, there seems to be some kind of buffer window for U1 and U2 during his forward dash (at least from EX FA), you can input it before the dash is done and it will still come out, unlike super or normals.

    I'm using Double Ultra when testing this btw. Seems to be the same with full U1 though.
    Post edited by Doopliss on
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  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    Doopliss wrote: »
    Is it known the charge time for Bison's U1 is only 40f? Thought that change was only for U2. Also, there seems to be some kind of buffer window for U1 and U2 during his forward dash (at least from EX FA), you can input it before the dash is done and it will still come out, unlike super or normals.

    I'm using Double Ultra when testing this btw. Seems to be the same with full U1 though.

    The U1 change was NOT known. I had totally missed that. Actually his Super was reduced to 40F too!

    In regards to the buffer thing, I don't see anything other than the fact his Super/U1/U2 charge is retained for 28F while his Specials charge is retained for only 12F

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  • DooplissDoopliss Joined: Posts: 3,181
    edited December 2014
    Eternal wrote: »
    Doopliss wrote: »
    Is it known the charge time for Bison's U1 is only 40f? Thought that change was only for U2. Also, there seems to be some kind of buffer window for U1 and U2 during his forward dash (at least from EX FA), you can input it before the dash is done and it will still come out, unlike super or normals.

    I'm using Double Ultra when testing this btw. Seems to be the same with full U1 though.

    The U1 change was NOT known. I had totally missed that. Actually his Super was reduced to 40F too!

    In regards to the buffer thing, I don't see anything other than the fact his Super/U1/U2 charge is retained for 28F while his Specials charge is retained for only 12F
    I'm pushing the button itself before the dash is over. If I only press LP for example, in the exact same script, nothing comes out, even if I delay it 1 frame to compensate for negative edge. The same thing happens if I press LK, which should result in super. the total frames between the dash being initiated and the Ultra being initiated is like 16 frames, when it should take 21 frames to act after dashing out of focus (IIRC).
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  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    edited December 2014
    Doopliss wrote: »
    Eternal wrote: »
    Doopliss wrote: »
    Is it known the charge time for Bison's U1 is only 40f? Thought that change was only for U2. Also, there seems to be some kind of buffer window for U1 and U2 during his forward dash (at least from EX FA), you can input it before the dash is done and it will still come out, unlike super or normals.

    I'm using Double Ultra when testing this btw. Seems to be the same with full U1 though.

    The U1 change was NOT known. I had totally missed that. Actually his Super was reduced to 40F too!

    In regards to the buffer thing, I don't see anything other than the fact his Super/U1/U2 charge is retained for 28F while his Specials charge is retained for only 12F
    I'm pushing the button itself before the dash is over. If I only press LP for example, in the exact same script, nothing comes out, even if I delay it 1 frame to compensate for negative edge. The same thing happens if I press LK, which should result in super. the total frames between the dash being initiated and the Ultra being initiated is like 16 frames, when it should take 21 frames to act after dashing out of focus (IIRC).

    Got me, other than the reversal cancel script which allows for the input to be saved for any special move/super/ultra/focus for the last 6-7F of his dash but still doesn't actually occur until the interrupt frame on the dash there is nothing I can see. If it works for ultra it should work for super or specials. The focus attack speeds / cancel data are identical for Focus and EX Focus and red focus and they all use the same dash cancel list.

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  • DooplissDoopliss Joined: Posts: 3,181
    It's possible I messed up with the super, the only thing I'm sure of is that it works with U1 and U2 but not normals.
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  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    As I said, there is a buffer window of ~6-7F where it will save your input and execute it on the earliest frame possible once the dash recovers but only moves that are on the "reversal" cancel list. That refers to specials, supers, focus attack, and ultras
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  • DooplissDoopliss Joined: Posts: 3,181
    Is this Bison specific or something everyone has?
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  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    edited December 2014
    Doopliss wrote: »
    Is this Bison specific or something everyone has?

    Everyone has it to an extent but it varies character to character how long. It's what causes the [+X] or [-X] issue for dashes.

    For example Juri has a forward dash of 19F. Starting on frame 13F the "reversal" cancel script kicks in and any move on the reversal cancel list that is input between 13F and 17F will be executed on 17F which is why her dash is listed as 19[-2].

    Characters who don't have that [-X] or [+X] just means that their "reversal" cancel occurs on the proper frame when the dash actually recovers.

    For example: Cody's forward dash has the reversal cancel list kick in on 15-18F. Any special/super/ultra/focus input during that 3F window will occur on 18F when the dash recovers. Actually it accepts inputs until 22F but anything input between 18-22F occurs after the dash can be interrupted by any input.



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  • DooplissDoopliss Joined: Posts: 3,181
    edited December 2014
    I see, thanks for the info.

    Made a video with some new combos you can do with this:
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  • m16ghostm16ghost Joined: Posts: 1,810
    edited December 2014
    Doopliss wrote: »
    Is it known the charge time for Bison's U1 is only 40f? Thought that change was only for U2. Also, there seems to be some kind of buffer window for U1 and U2 during his forward dash (at least from EX FA), you can input it before the dash is done and it will still come out, unlike super or normals.

    I'm using Double Ultra when testing this btw. Seems to be the same with full U1 though.

    It was known fairly early, but it's nice to get confirmation of the charge time. A few people in the Bison forums had performed some informal testing:
    m16ghost wrote: »
    Something has changed about Bison's U1 or skulldiver (headstomp follow up). It's really easy now to hit EX-skulldiver -> U1 using USF4 Bison, but the same inputs doesn't even give enough charge for U1 using any previous version of Bison. Faster startup on U1 doesn't explain it.
    Well, after some tests I can confirm:
    1 - Ultra 1 is 40f charge (which means it combos after Backjump Medium attack, combos after EX Skull Diver and after J.HP)
    2 - Ultra 1 got a 2f invulnerability reduction
    3 - EX Headpress is indeed 20f startup like regular Headpress
  • DooplissDoopliss Joined: Posts: 3,181
    Funny thing is that I was playing around with EX SSD to U1 when USFIV was released, but I didn't realize it wasn't possible in earlier versions >.<
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  • DooplissDoopliss Joined: Posts: 3,181
    This is more of a glitch, but when you set counterhit on in training mode, you can counterhit Decapre out of the recovery of her U1, which should never be possible. Actually found a training mode only combo as a result.
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  • comoesacomoesa not too bad.. Joined: Posts: 1,172
    Bump.

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  • EnedEned Joined: Posts: 56
    edited December 2014
    Zangief's light green hand is -7, I don't think this was in the patch notes? Edit: -7 on block, still -2 on hit
    Post edited by Ened on
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  • DaftMarCDaftMarC Joined: Posts: 105
    If you FADC Hawk's MP.TB on hit then grab the game reads it as a 2 hit combo.
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