Unlisted Changes in USF4

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  • The BreakerThe Breaker reading, lol Joined: Posts: 1,918
    bout to go to sleep but I figured I'd try a few of these

    Dan - U2 and W Ultra can both be blocked without crouching
    Yang - doesn't appear to get second hit more often, at least not on Dan. The hit stun change is noticable though
    Ken - LP DP not punished by Evil Ryu's MK Axe Kick (20f)
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  • VersatileBJN007VersatileBJN007 Joined: Posts: 1,197
    Gamogo wrote: »
    Akuma
    - Hurtbox added to demon flip dive kick

    Really? Was this 100% confirmed?
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  • Jav1tsJav1ts Joined: Posts: 313
    They adjusted Balrog's Ultra 1 to juggle slightly better. I think they reduced the startup of the last uppercut (the 3 hit big uppercut) by a frame or 2 because he can now do a different variation of his juggle which does more damage.

    The old juggle after headbutt was KPKKK

    The new juggle is KPKPK. This was not possible in any version because the last big uppercut would whiff.

    They also adjusted the way grounded U1 hits so that it never uncombos now. They added the straight ender but it wasn't even necessary honestly because it does less damage and the old ender never uncombos anymore. I was trying really hard to make it whiff by doing dash >> ultra from fullscreen away vs fireballs and I connected with a full u1 (old ender) every single time.

  • TheFreshPrinceTheFreshPrince Sold so many chickens think I work for Kroger Joined: Posts: 3,725
    Jav1ts wrote: »
    They adjusted Balrog's Ultra 1 to juggle slightly better. I think they reduced the startup of the last uppercut (the 3 hit big uppercut) by a frame or 2 because he can now do a different variation of his juggle which does more damage.

    The old juggle after headbutt was KPKKK

    The new juggle is KPKPK. This was not possible in any version because the last big uppercut would whiff.

    They also adjusted the way grounded U1 hits so that it never uncombos now. They added the straight ender but it wasn't even necessary honestly because it does less damage and the old ender never uncombos anymore. I was trying really hard to make it whiff by doing dash >> ultra from fullscreen away vs fireballs and I connected with a full u1 (old ender) every single time.

    Yeah, I noticed it earlier as well, and it looks like it's because they sped up the 4th hits recovery, not the last hits.

    Are you sure kick ender hits most of the time now though? It would be kinda silly for them to fix it and they give the damage reduction to a variation that isn't even necessary, but then again I wouldn't put it past them.
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  • Rice_EaterRice_Eater Now more Evil Joined: Posts: 1,835
    Not sure how this was addressed. Maybe it was done because Evil Ryu players brought it up or maybe it was just due to them adjusting hurt boxes to due to unblockables. But in AE 2012 Evil Ryu's hop kick tatsu did not get full hits against Cody and Balrog. I think it was 2 or 3 from the EX tatsu and then it sent them flying in the other direction which is horrible because if you already cornered them then they're out with no ability to apply pressure. In USF4, Evil Ryu gets full hits against Cody now and 4 of the 5 hits against Balrog. It's not the full damage but it sends Rog going backwards at least.
  • VorkosiganVorkosigan AWOOOGA Joined: Posts: 1,919
    Those counterhit damage oversights are so bush league

    Come on Capcom
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  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    Vorkosigan wrote: »
    Those counterhit damage oversights are so bush league

    Come on Capcom

    Specifically:
    Stupid%20Bush.jpg
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  • Jav1tsJav1ts Joined: Posts: 313
    edited June 2014
    Will Smith wrote: »

    Yeah, I noticed it earlier as well, and it looks like it's because they sped up the 4th hits recovery, not the last hits.

    Are you sure kick ender hits most of the time now though? It would be kinda silly for them to fix it and they give the damage reduction to a variation that isn't even necessary, but then again I wouldn't put it past them.

    The only unique application i saw for the new ender is that you cannot interrupt it so you can use it to chip them. It also recovers faster than the old ender so doesn't get punished as hard on block and he can use it as an escape a little better.
  • GamogoGamogo Common sense isn't. Joined: Posts: 2,957
    Gamogo wrote: »
    Akuma
    - Hurtbox added to demon flip dive kick

    Really? Was this 100% confirmed?

    Yep. Its clear as day in the diff data. Its a completely new addition too - not a modification or extension of existing data. I'm yet to experience it in matches, though I expect it will rear its head in specific scenarios, much like how the vanilla > Super dive kick trades with Gief's lariat in certain situations came into effect.

    The changes to U1 and U2 are baffling though. I'm still not certain what the diff data changes actually mean.

    Speaking of which, those of you looking to uncover or understand your character's changes might want to look at this carefully:

    http://watissf.dantarion.com/sfultradiff/
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  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    edited June 2014
    Gamogo wrote: »
    Gamogo wrote: »
    Akuma
    - Hurtbox added to demon flip dive kick

    Really? Was this 100% confirmed?

    Yep. Its clear as day in the diff data. Its a completely new addition too - not a modification or extension of existing data. I'm yet to experience it in matches, though I expect it will rear its head in specific scenarios, much like how the vanilla > Super dive kick trades with Gief's lariat in certain situations came into effect.

    The changes to U1 and U2 are baffling though. I'm still not certain what the diff data changes actually mean.

    Speaking of which, those of you looking to uncover or understand your character's changes might want to look at this carefully:

    http://watissf.dantarion.com/sfultradiff/

    Actually it's not nearly as "clear" as you might think. This is exactly what was added:
    "StartFrame": 10,
    "EndFrame": 30,
    "X": 0.0,
    "Y": 0.0,
    "Rotation": 0.0,
    "Width": 0.16500000655651093,
    "Height": 0.16500000655651093,
    "FloatUnknown": 0.0,
    "Unknown1": 14,
    "Unused": 0,
    "UnknownBytes": 18

    Here are the issues as to why its not as clear as you might think.

    1. Notice the position. It's completely centered on whatever bone it's attached to. (And its VERY small at 0.165x0.165. For comparison the hurtbox on Akuma's head is 0.2x0.2 about 120% the size of this)
    2. Unknown1 is used for changing whether a box is Pushbox/Throwbox/Hurtbox or a mix of them. I don't know what 14 is (maybe Will Smith does, he was the one who originally discovered that.)
    3. I don't know what UnknownBytes is. After the unused hex section there is actually TWO unknown values that we currently have listed as Unk04 and Unk05. I don't know which one is being referred to in this case. I can't remember Unk05 does but Unk04 dictates what body part the hurtbox is attached to.

    I think this might just be a small pushbox + hurtbox positioned inside of one of Akuma's already existing hurtboxes. It MIGHT make it easier to anti air or make no difference. I think it might just be there to screw with DF dive kick cross ups / unblockables but I'm not even sure of that.

    It's new, but I don't know what it does if anything. Certainly something to look into.
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  • m0mom0mo Joined: Posts: 368
    There might be some reason street didnt mension this or maybe he just forgot but Gen has his air stance change thing now. In other words he can do crane normals in mantis jump arc and vice versa. Although I still have no idea how to do anything besides the heavies especialy on pad.
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  • GamogoGamogo Common sense isn't. Joined: Posts: 2,957
    Eternal wrote: »
    I think this might just be a small pushbox + hurtbox positioned inside of one of Akuma's already existing hurtboxes. It MIGHT make it easier to anti air or make no difference. I think it might just be there to screw with DF dive kick cross ups / unblockables but I'm not even sure of that.

    It's new, but I don't know what it does if anything. Certainly something to look into.

    Interesting point about it being used as a pushbox to assist in collision detection. I noticed dive kicks can still invoke cross-ups (very rare), but we'll need to test some setups to compare with AE.

    I never paid close attention to the size of it actually. Given the size, it seems unlikely it would diminish the effectiveness of the attack (which certainly seems to be the case so far).
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  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    m0mo wrote: »
    There might be some reason street didnt mension this or maybe he just forgot but Gen has his air stance change thing now. In other words he can do crane normals in mantis jump arc and vice versa. Although I still have no idea how to do anything besides the heavies especialy on pad.

    That's awesome! Something I've wanted for a while, it's not mentioned at all in his character files as far as I can see so it's probably something they had to do in-engine. Got a video?
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  • m0mom0mo Joined: Posts: 368
    edited June 2014
    Eternal wrote: »
    m0mo wrote: »
    There might be some reason street didnt mension this or maybe he just forgot but Gen has his air stance change thing now. In other words he can do crane normals in mantis jump arc and vice versa. Although I still have no idea how to do anything besides the heavies especialy on pad.

    That's awesome! Something I've wanted for a while, it's not mentioned at all in his character files as far as I can see so it's probably something they had to do in-engine. Got a video?



    Here's a video of me getting bodied. You should see it quite clearly in the time i specified (~2:24) aswell if you look through the video i do it quite a few times because of old habbit of doing crane j. hp with 3 punches for instant stance change.
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  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    Added it to the list (Only reason I haven't added stuff mentioned by others yet, like Gamogo, is I haven't reached that character yet:P)
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  • TechtunTechtun Frame Trap Happy Chap Joined: Posts: 209
    Nah you could already change stances in the air by hitting 3p or 3k, then when you land the stance will have changed.
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  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    edited June 2014
    Techtun wrote: »
    Nah you could already change stances in the air by hitting 3p or 3k, then when you land the stance will have changed.

    This is different. Stance change IN air is allowed now. E.G. You don't change stance when you land, you do it mid air and now you can use mantis normals in crane stance jump and vice versa. I'd like to see some non-match exploration of this :D
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  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    Updated again with Gouken/Akuma/Guile
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  • street11street11 Slayer-san Joined: Posts: 5,236
    edited June 2014
    I will explain what I found out about Gen's mid-air stance change since you did Gen.

    If you press 3K during Mantis empty jump, Crane j.HK will come out, and his stance is immediately considered to be Crane (so you can actually plink Crane U2 in the air from Mantis jump, and same thing with 3P during Crane empty jump.
    If you press 3K during Mantis jump while doing something else (eg. j.MK), his stance is considered to be Mantis until he lands and recovers, so the same stance-didnt-change problem happens. Same thing goes to 3P during Crane jump while sticking a move out.


    Also, if you cancel pre-jump frames to Mantis U2, you can get full animation against airborne opponents. I believe the special version of Mantis U2 (the one cancelled from Mantis Super, which gets full animation on airborne) comes out.

    EDIT: Oh btw, reduced Oga hitbox is a listed change (at least from the Japanese one)
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  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    Yeah I remember it being listed on the japanese list but it's not on the capcom unity one which most english readers saw. Basically unlisted.
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  • gsxtacygsxtacy Killa Cam Joined: Posts: 1,552
    edited June 2014
    didnt see it listed but maybe someone mentioned it. Cammy got an extra frame of adv on spiral arrow fadc. She can now combo cl.fp and cl.mp after she fadcs.

    yang lk dp also got some kind of hitbox adjustment (maybe inadvertent due to hitstop fix). His dk frame adv also seems improved but not positive yet.
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  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    gsxtacy wrote: »
    didnt see it listed but maybe someone mentioned it. Cammy got an extra frame of adv on spiral arrow fadc. She can now combo cl.fp and cl.mp after she fadcs.

    yang lk dp also got some kind of hitbox adjustment (maybe inadvertent due to hitstop fix). His dk frame adv also seems improved but not positive yet.

    Cammy frame advantage is mentioned in official patch notes. Yang I haven't gotten to yet.
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  • gsxtacygsxtacy Killa Cam Joined: Posts: 1,552
    Eternal wrote: »
    gsxtacy wrote: »
    didnt see it listed but maybe someone mentioned it. Cammy got an extra frame of adv on spiral arrow fadc. She can now combo cl.fp and cl.mp after she fadcs.

    yang lk dp also got some kind of hitbox adjustment (maybe inadvertent due to hitstop fix). His dk frame adv also seems improved but not positive yet.

    Cammy frame advantage is mentioned in official patch notes. Yang I haven't gotten to yet.

    Oh i see it now. I glanced over it since it never mentioned FADC.
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  • HitenryuHitenryu Joined: Posts: 647
    I think feis mk chicken wing has had its physics changed when hitting airborne making it more difficult to land ultra after
  • gengen EX3 veteran Joined: Posts: 705
    I think makoto's cr mk has been changed, it trades or get beaten more and doesn't seem to have the same range as in ae whn used as anti air.
  • eiSHeiSH Keepin' it FreestyleiSH Joined: Posts: 1,575
    Was going to make a video on this, but I guess I'll post it here too:

    Juri
    - Close Stand MK throw invincible 1f, considered airborne from frames 2-5

    While it's true 1f throw invincible, she is throwable after which leads me to question how she's throwable while airborne =\
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  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    edited June 2014
    eiSH wrote: »
    Was going to make a video on this, but I guess I'll post it here too:

    Juri
    - Close Stand MK throw invincible 1f, considered airborne from frames 2-5

    While it's true 1f throw invincible, she is throwable after which leads me to question how she's throwable while airborne =\

    This one was mentioned in the official patch notes. Previously in AE2012 she was airborne from first frame but they removed that for many moves and changed it to be unthrowable 1F then airborne 2F onward.

    Anyways, as for being throwable while airborne. There are some throws that hit airborne:

    Air throws
    Rose's soul throw
    Hakan's oil dive
    Hugo's back breaker (I think. It might be a strike like El Fuerte's leg throw and Abel's falling sky.)
    Guy's bushin flip throw
    Cammy's hooligan throws

    I think that's all iirc. (just going by memory)

    Hitenryu wrote: »
    I think feis mk chicken wing has had its physics changed when hitting airborne making it more difficult to land ultra after

    Already have it in the list, they changed the way the first hit causes knockback on air hit.
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  • dialupslimdialupslim Joined: Posts: 433
    Since DJ's Ultra 1 was buffed, it's easier to link EX Air Slasher to Ultra 1, character specific of course.
  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    updated again with abel, e honda, thawk, hakan, and Ibuki
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  • ShineboxShinebox Joined: Posts: 2,689
    edited June 2014
    EX Headbutt causes NO pushback on block, only causes self recoil *TEST REQUEST* Simple, just see if when blocked the opponent moves at all or if only Honda moves

    Honda only moves. The push back was severely nerfed. I can Ultra 2 him with Ken.
  • eiSHeiSH Keepin' it FreestyleiSH Joined: Posts: 1,575
    Eternal wrote: »
    eiSH wrote: »
    Was going to make a video on this, but I guess I'll post it here too:

    Juri
    - Close Stand MK throw invincible 1f, considered airborne from frames 2-5

    While it's true 1f throw invincible, she is throwable after which leads me to question how she's throwable while airborne =\

    This one was mentioned in the official patch notes. Previously in AE2012 she was airborne from first frame but they removed that for many moves and changed it to be unthrowable 1F then airborne 2F onward.

    Anyways, as for being throwable while airborne. There are some throws that hit airborne:

    Air throws
    Rose's soul throw
    Hakan's oil dive
    Hugo's back breaker (I think. It might be a strike like El Fuerte's leg throw and Abel's falling sky.)
    Guy's bushin flip throw
    Cammy's hooligan throws

    Um.. Yes -- I know air throws can throw people out of the air. I'm saying she can be regular thrown on those "airborne" frames.
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  • risemixrisemix Joined: Posts: 929
    edited June 2014
    Gouken
    EX Tatsu (on successful 1st hit) hitbox on hits 2-7 dramatically increased (note this is the lock in version of EX Tatsu. It only refers to when the move has actually connected the first hit.)
    EX Tatsu floats lower on hits 2-7
    This is not "undocumented." It was added after the final location test to ensure that Poison doesn't drop out of the move. She still does, so oops!
    MP Rush Punch now starts moving forward 1F sooner? *TEST REQUEST* They did change when the physics start but rounding may mean this change did nothing. If they changed when MP Rush punch's earliest physics frame then it should have also changed how far he travels overall very slightly.
    This is undocumented, but if true, only matters in one specific case: combo from low strong and far stand strong, which I believe is intended was work at better ranges since Super and has never quite worked right.
    Not an unlisted, just poorly explained change: Back throw now techable 1-17F because previously you could actually tech the move too QUICKLY due to the offset tech window since the move has a slower startup.)
    This one is infuriating: when I brought it up on reddit, I was downvoted to oblivion, but it's true. Gouken's back throw is techable earlier in AE2012, which means back throw now has a massive tech window. Combofiend claims the tech window is 7 frames instead of the usual 5, but it's more like 17 instead of the usual 5.
    MP Gohadoken cannot hit crouching (This was likely because of Hugo but it might affect something else due to the fact now it can't hit crouching PERIOD even if they extend their hurtbox way up with like a shoto crHP or Bison's crHK slide)
    Weird, but not a terribly big deal. I don't think Gouken could hit most crouching opponents with MP hadoken anyway or would normally aim to try to hit them with it. If it stops some weird abuse cases like hitting crouching Hugo (shouldn't have been possible except up close tbh) then I'll take it. Better stop accidentally using negative edge, I guess.
  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    risemix wrote: »
    Gouken
    EX Tatsu (on successful 1st hit) hitbox on hits 2-7 dramatically increased (note this is the lock in version of EX Tatsu. It only refers to when the move has actually connected the first hit.)
    EX Tatsu floats lower on hits 2-7
    This is not "undocumented." It was added after the final location test to ensure that Poison doesn't drop out of the move. She still does, so oops!
    MP Rush Punch now starts moving forward 1F sooner? *TEST REQUEST* They did change when the physics start but rounding may mean this change did nothing. If they changed when MP Rush punch's earliest physics frame then it should have also changed how far he travels overall very slightly.
    This is undocumented, but if true, only matters in one specific case: combo from low strong and far stand strong, which I believe is intended was work at better ranges since Super and has never quite worked right.
    Not an unlisted, just poorly explained change: Back throw now techable 1-17F because previously you could actually tech the move too QUICKLY due to the offset tech window since the move has a slower startup.)
    This one is infuriating: when I brought it up on reddit, I was downvoted to oblivion, but it's true. Gouken's back throw is techable earlier in AE2012, which means back throw now has a massive tech window. Combofiend claims the tech window is 7 frames instead of the usual 5, but it's more like 17 instead of the usual 5.
    MP Gohadoken cannot hit crouching (This was likely because of Hugo but it might affect something else due to the fact now it can't hit crouching PERIOD even if they extend their hurtbox way up with like a shoto crHP or Bison's crHK slide)
    Weird, but not a terribly big deal. I don't think Gouken could hit most crouching opponents with MP hadoken anyway or would normally aim to try to hit them with it. If it stops some weird abuse cases like hitting crouching Hugo (shouldn't have been possible except up close tbh) then I'll take it. Better stop accidentally using negative edge, I guess.

    For this list, anything not here is counted as unlisted: http://www.capcom-unity.com/combofiend/blog/2014/05/22/usfiv-final-character-change-list
    Note in Combofiend's post he says
    Over the last two weeks I've been providing you guys with character change videos. Although each video contained some pertinent changes you should look out for, it was by no means a representation of ALL the changes going into said character. This list that I'm providing today however, is a representation of all the changes you can expect to play with in Ultra SFIV.

    So be sure to study up on your characters frame data and envision how these new changes can be applied to your game. And don't forget to pre-order the digital upgrade through PSN or visit your local GameStop to make sure you get the exclusive costumes for the five new characters.

    There's only a week and half left, it's crunch time folks!

    EDIT: There were a few changes that were off slightly. The list has been updated with corrections.

    To further clarify, the changes here are from AE 2012 to Ultra Street Fighter IV. I know that some of you have been following Ultra closely and know about the Japanese Arcade changes, but seeing of how no one had access to that version, putting the Japanese Arcade changes to console version may end creating tons of confusion that I'd prefer to avoid.

    As far as I'm concerned if it ain't on this supposed final and complete list it's unlisted.
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  • HitenryuHitenryu Joined: Posts: 647
    Do you know if they changed ryus waking up hurtbox, seems like its been changed
  • Da KnutDa Knut Joined: Posts: 1,599
    DJ's far st.HP doesn't always launch properly on CH.



    [quote="Eternal;190439"


    Deejay
    L/M/H Super pushbox added from startup until 2nd active frame. (Was there an issue with it whiffing/going over stuff or something?)
    Air Slasher chip increased included changing both hits of EX Air Slasher from 12 to 15 chip (now does 30 chip on block instead of 24)


    [/quote]

    Super xx ultra 1, didn't always combo in AE 2012
  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    edited June 2014
    Hitenryu wrote: »
    Do you know if they changed ryus waking up hurtbox, seems like its been changed

    Not as far as I can see, probably just due to changes to other moves + whatever in-engine changes they did to try and fix unblockables but failed.
    Da Knut wrote: »
    DJ's far st.HP doesn't always launch properly on CH.

    Here is the deal with that

    First off, counterhit vs crouching never launches only vs standing or airborne. Secondly the 1st active frame of Deejay's far HP (which actually does have a decent hitbox unlike the other 3) never launched on counterhit before. Only if you hit on 2-4F. And lastly, and likely the culprit, the only change they made was that counterhit vs AIRBORNE on the 1st active frame causes a juggle state. They didn't change counterhit vs standing on the 1st active frame as far as I can tell.

    Can you try in training mode to hit on the first active frame with dummy set to counterhit to verify this?

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  • AngerusAngerus To headbutt or not to headbutt? Joined: Posts: 829
    edited June 2014
    About E.Honda, let me clarify on that.
    He has basically no pushback if EX headbutt hits during the first 2 active frames (making it very punishable on block). Juri can do cr.HP xx whatever for max damage.
    If EX headbutt hits during later active frames (from midscreen or farther) it has a bigger pushback but still less than AE2012's.

    I think they made this decision because Honda can still fadc his headbutt in those 2 active frames to make it safe.
  • ShineboxShinebox Joined: Posts: 2,689
    edited June 2014
    Whoever tests USF Ken's cr.MK

    Make sure you do not use Super or Vanilla Ken to test it. They will win as his cr.MK had 4 active frames before. You have to test it with AE or AE2012 Ken.
  • street11street11 Slayer-san Joined: Posts: 5,236
    Okay, so I tested a few stuff. If I'm explaining a string for spacing, it always starts from point blank range.

    Akuma
    - The following combo works with USF4 Akuma: Focus Crumple>forward dash, cr.LK xx cr.LP xx cr.LP, cr.MK xx LK Tatsu. LK Tatsu whiffs with 2012 Akuma
    - There seems to be no difference at all in his UC1. Damage, number of hits, and meter gain are the same. U1 and W Ultra's UC1 seem to be the same as well, but I need to test one more thing.

    Dudley
    - EX Short Swing Blow seems to be 20f start-up from various tests. It is at least as safe as 2012 EX SSB (cannot get punished by SRK or Gouken's Super on block)

    El Fuerte
    - Regarding far st.LK, If you do Focus Crumple>forward dash, cr.LP xx cr.LP xx st.LP, far st.LK will always connect on standing Abel. In 2012 far st.LK will sometimes whiff.
    - Sweep, backdash, f+MK doesn't corpse hop on Fuerte in USF4. It does corpse hop in 2012

    Fei Long
    - LP Rekka does seem to have its pushback nerfed by very little in all ranges except for very tip, where it has almost no pushback. I have to test more to confirm this.

    Gouken
    - MP rush punch travels the exact same distance

    Hakan
    - Against crouching Dhalsim, MK/HK oil dive and MP/HP Super does not go over in USF4. In 2012 Hakan hopped over (LK oil dive and LP Super did not hop over in the first place). Tried both oiled and unoiled versions.

    Ibuki
    - f+MK horizontal range seems to be the same

    Ken
    - Put one Ken in the corner, get in point blank range, then backdash 3 times with the other Ken. In this spacing USF4 Ken's cr.MK will always beat 2012 Ken's cr.MK without exception.
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