Decapre's Cannon Strike & Spiral Arrow - Hit & block advantage charts

TeyahTeyah Return of the DragonJoined: Posts: 1,125
edited July 2014 in Decapre
Here are some charts I made up showing the advantage on hit/block on Decapre's Cannon Strike and Spiral Arrow - hopefully you guys will find it useful.


Cannon Strike on Hit/Block

Decapre%20Cannon%20Strike%20chart.jpg
(Small version)

Decapre's divekick has different advantage depending on whether it is used from MK, HK, EX MK, or EX HK Scrambles, so there was a lot of info to get down. There are two rows for each picture, one for MK Scramble CS and one for HK Scramble CS. The first two numbers are advantage on hit/block, followed by one number for the EX version of CS from the EX Scramble that matches the same angle. The EX Cannon Strike has the same advantage on hit as it does on block, so that's why there's only one number beside the EX section. X's on the chart mean that this strike is not possible at this height, on a Ken-sized enemy.


Air Spiral Arrow on Block

Decapre%20Spiral%20Arrow%20chart.jpg
(Small version)

This move is a little interesting. It's pretty unsafe if spaced poorly as you can see above, but the EX version is basically almost always + on block. In the chart above, I only included numbers on block for regular/EX arrow, since all versions knock down on hit.

Now... you might be thinking that instant air EX arrow is an easy way to keep up the pressure in close, but this isn't always the case. All version of Decapre's Spiral Arrow must go through 12 active frames in the air before she can land (15 for the LK arrow), where she has a huge 18 frames of recovery. So if you try to use the lowest possible instant EX Spiral Arrow like you would Cammy's EXCS up close, Decapre will still be spinning around in the air as if you did it much higher up, which can lead to her being negative on block, even with the EX version.



[Boring frame data stuff below]


Cannon Strike Data

MK Scramble -> LK/MK/HK Cannon strike: 12F startup, 11F active, 19F hitstun, 9F blockstun, 5F landing recovery. Fastest possible strike has a startup of 18+12F (30F total), has 8F airborne + 5F landing recovery, and is +6 on hit / -4 on block. Highest possible strike on Ken is 0 on hit / -10 on block. Lowest possible strike on Ken is +14 on hit / +4 on block.

HK Scramble -> LK/MK/HK Cannon strike: 12F startup, 11F active, 22F hitstun, 12F blockstun, 5F landing recovery. Fastest possible strike has a startup of 18+12F (30F total), has 11F airborne + 5F landing recovery, and is +6 on hit / -4 on block. Highest possible strike on Ken is +2 on hit / -8 on block. Lowest strike possible on Ken is +16/+6, can't get a +17 strike as the strike runs out of active frames 1F before landing.

MK+HK (low) Scramble EX Cannon strike: 12F startup, 11F active, 19F hitstun, 19F blockstun, 4F landing recovery. Fastest possible strike has a startup of 18+12F (30F total), has 8F airborne + 4F landing recovery, and is +7 on hit / +7 on block.

LK+HK (high) Scramble EX Cannon strike: 12F startup, 11F active, 22F hitstun, 22F blockstun, 4F landing recovery. Fastest possible strike has a startup of 18+12F (30F total), has 11F airborne + 4F landing recovery, and is +7 on hit / +7 on block.

EX Cannon Strike seems to have a different hitbox than regular Cannon Strike, since it drops lower before connecting as compared to a regular strike. This can be seen in how EXCS won't connect at the height of the two highest HK Scramble strikes, it has to drop lower before it will hit.


Spiral Arrow Data

LK/MK/HK Spiral Arrow: 8F startup, 20F blockstun, 19F active (till landing), 18F landing recovery. -7 at worst, +2 at best. Move has to go through a minimum of 12F active frames (15F for LK version) before it can land and recover on the ground.

Fastest possible LK Spiral Arrow has a startup of 4 prejump + 5 jump + 8 startup (17F total), has 14F airborne + 18F landing recovery, and is -12 on block.

Fastest possible MK Spiral Arrow has a startup of 4 prejump + 5 jump + 8 startup (17F total), has 11F airborne + 18F landing recovery, and is -9 on block.

Fastest possible HK Spiral Arrow has a startup of 4 prejump + 5 jump + 8 startup (17F total), has 11F airborne + 18F landing recovery, and is -9 on block.

EX Spiral Arrow: 27F blockstun, 18F landing recovery, 0 at worst, +9 at best. Fastest possible EX SA has a startup of 4 prejump + 1 jump + 8 startup (13F total), has 11F airborne + 18F landing recovery, and is -2 on block.

Side note: Decapre's jump has 4F startup, although it visually looks like 5F startup she is actually considered airborne even though her feet are still planted on the ground. Lots of discussion below.
Post edited by Teyah on
I see in frames IRL

Comments

  • WindalfrWindalfr Moe is cancer Joined: Posts: 1,857
    edited July 2014
    Beautiful, greatly appreciate your effort!! Will definitely put this data to good use.
    Post edited by Windalfr on
  • MalvadiscoMalvadisco Marambio Joined: Posts: 2,967
    I love you

    No homo

    How did the testing? 60fps footage and stuff?
    CARACOLES
  • AkaratsChampionAkaratsChampion Joined: Posts: 124
    This is great! Thank you so much for the time invested on this =)
  • MateriaMateria Joined: Posts: 118
    Thanks a lot for the info! Spiral arrow doesn't seem that good now :(
  • tehmidcaptehmidcap Joined: Posts: 161
    edited June 2014
    Because you can't just throw it out randomly? As long as you're patient it can still be safe, ESPECIALLY if you have the meter (even the instant EX can't be punished).

    As someone who mains with Vega... It's amazing to see that two SPECIAL (carefully spaced, albeit) moves can be both safe on block AND(or) used to start a combo on hit. Don't complain be grateful!
  • MateriaMateria Joined: Posts: 118
    I haven't found good ways to space out normal air drill to make it even or + on block yet, finding it really hard to get it to hit them that low when I do use it.
    HK scramble drive is really good!
  • TeyahTeyah Return of the Dragon Joined: Posts: 1,125
    Malvadisco wrote: »
    How did the testing? 60fps footage and stuff?
    Yep, I use one of these things to capture at 720p/60 fps and then just frame step in QuickTime Player... nothing too fancy. Anyone with a capture card made in the last five years should be able to put something like this together for other characters too. :)
    I see in frames IRL
  • fatboyfatboy I beat anorexia: 10-0 Joined: Posts: 1,853
    Nice!!! Thanks!
    Am I hungry? Sure, I could eat...
  • needles09needles09 No perfect, Moral victory. Joined: Posts: 647
    Wooooow did not know hk scramble arrow had more hit/block stun. Man, but that eliminates any kind of mixup, just kind of gives you a meaty against their knock down. Fug I have to get good to win :(
  • MateriaMateria Joined: Posts: 118
    This thread should be sticked BTW!
  • exploidexploid Joined: Posts: 495
    edited June 2014
    If decapre has a 5frame prejump, shouldn't it be visible if you get a cammy and a decapre jumping next to each other over and over? They look exactly the same.

    Hi!
  • VeseriusVeserius Hold Down Back Joined: Posts: 11,511
    I asked eternal and he said the game data said they were the same. so yeah idk
    Vuh-sair-ee-us or just Ves I guess | Twitter | Youtube  | Maj's Footsie Handbook  | My TMNT:TF Netplay Guide
  • chrinoschrinos And as I live, there is no evil that will stand Joined: Posts: 31
    OMG thank you so much for this!
  • RygRyg Joined: Posts: 146
    Good job guy!
  • noosetesternoosetester Joined: Posts: 856
    so it's actually more adventageous to not do ia/f.jump ex drill? that's interesting. so, you should actually try to space it in a way that it travels far, as to hit on a later active frame, but also hits low so the drop to the ground is shorter and recovery frames can begin faster. it's usally one or the other for these kinds of moves
  • ShockBoyShockBoy Joined: Posts: 29
    Thank you a LOT! This is just fantastic. I would pay for that, lol.
  • TeyahTeyah Return of the Dragon Joined: Posts: 1,125
    Just checked the prejump time (again) and it is definitely 5 frames. Total jump time is 5+35 (Cammy's is 4+36).
    exploid wrote: »
    If decapre has a 5frame prejump, shouldn't it be visible if you get a cammy and a decapre jumping next to each other over and over? They look exactly the same.
    Yes it is visible, Cammy takes off a bit earlier and her jump is slightly floatier.
    Veserius wrote: »
    I asked eternal and he said the game data said they were the same. so yeah idk

    Did Eternal do any testing? It's pretty clear from frame stepping that Decapre is slower to get off the ground, you can see it with a good eye.

    I see in frames IRL
  • VeseriusVeserius Hold Down Back Joined: Posts: 11,511
    they might have done it in some weird ass way. He was just checking files. Ultra coding is a fucking mess
    Vuh-sair-ee-us or just Ves I guess | Twitter | Youtube  | Maj's Footsie Handbook  | My TMNT:TF Netplay Guide
  • exploidexploid Joined: Posts: 495
    Teyah wrote: »
    Just checked the prejump time (again) and it is definitely 5 frames. Total jump time is 5+35 (Cammy's is 4+36).
    exploid wrote: »
    If decapre has a 5frame prejump, shouldn't it be visible if you get a cammy and a decapre jumping next to each other over and over? They look exactly the same.
    Yes it is visible, Cammy takes off a bit earlier and her jump is slightly floatier.

    Floatier? are you saying cammy and decapre jumps are not the same frames/arc? And if every jump decapre does takes one extra frame, they should jump uneven after a while.

    I did a test with hakan. His prejump frames when jumping back and up is 5frames. Forward its 4.

    Did a point blank lp hayate, then st.lk. If hakan jumps forward he gets air reset, because he is airborn when st.lk becomes active. If he tries to jump back and up he gets tagged in the prejump frames and stays grounded.

    Did the same test on cammy and decapre, they both get air reset every time. Pretty sure both have 4 prejump frames.
    Hi!
  • TeyahTeyah Return of the Dragon Joined: Posts: 1,125
    The jumps are the same total speed because Decapre has 5+35, Cammy has 4+36. Was your test using the record feature?

    When making the charts above I stepped through this animation several times, which is what's leading me to say she has 5F prejump:

    decapre-jump.gif
    I see in frames IRL
  • exploidexploid Joined: Posts: 495
    Yeah i used the record feature. I just did another test with viper thunder knuckle, same results. Only think i can think of is that her last prejump frame removes her hurtbox or something.
    Hi!
  • VeseriusVeserius Hold Down Back Joined: Posts: 11,511
    that'd be easy to prove though.

    setup move that will hit 4f after decapre gets up from knockdown with the last active frame, hold up. if air reset her jump is 4+ if she has a magical invincible frame then it'll whiff, if it's 5+ she'll get hit grounded.
    Vuh-sair-ee-us or just Ves I guess | Twitter | Youtube  | Maj's Footsie Handbook  | My TMNT:TF Netplay Guide
  • exploidexploid Joined: Posts: 495
    Tested with rolento c.jab. Only has one active frame. Made it hit on the 5th frame after decapre wake up. Used reversal DP and c.mp to confirm the timing.

    She got air reset every time, so she is airborn on her 5th jump frame. I paused the game several times just as she was getting it or just before, and it 100% looks like she is still in her prejump frames. Thats why the in the gif above it looks like she has 5prejump frames.

    Hi!
  • TeyahTeyah Return of the Dragon Joined: Posts: 1,125
    Ok I did some more testing and yeah I confirmed the above. I had Vanilla Akuma do a far hk -> cr.mk link. Far hk is +5 on hit / 0 on block in Vanilla. As Decapre I blocked the far hk standing, then held up to jump out of the cr.mk. At this point, if Decapre gets hit grounded then she has 5 prejump frames, otherwise she has less. Here's what it looks like:

    First active frame of Akuma cr.mk:
    akuma2mk.jpg
    She doesn't get hit - Akuma's foot passes right through her.
    I see in frames IRL
  • MalvadiscoMalvadisco Marambio Joined: Posts: 2,967
    so is 4f prejump?
    CARACOLES
  • ZansamZansam Frank Time! Joined: Posts: 1,289
    Thanks for all the work on this Teyah/exploid, really cool/useful stuff across the board.
    The dream is dead.
  • VeseriusVeserius Hold Down Back Joined: Posts: 11,511
    @d3v‌ can you sticky this
    Vuh-sair-ee-us or just Ves I guess | Twitter | Youtube  | Maj's Footsie Handbook  | My TMNT:TF Netplay Guide
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