How much does your arcade stick lag? Arcade stick input lag testing & results thread

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  • KT_paraKT_para Joined: Posts: 3
    does the HRAP VX-SA for ps3 use the same PCB?
  • RotaniborRotanibor @ROTANIBOR Joined: Posts: 202
    edited July 2014
    steamwolf wrote: »
    Does the VX-SA have the same PCB as the VX-SA Kai?

    I'm ready to get like 10 Kai's if its proven to be the exact same PCB with the same S-tier input lag.
  • TeyahTeyah Return of the Dragon Joined: Posts: 1,125
    KT_para wrote: »
    does the HRAP VX-SA for ps3 use the same PCB?
    Unfortunately no, the Hori PCBs on PS3 are not nearly as good as on 360. They still beat out every other licensed PS3 arcade stick, but for whatever reason, third party PCBs rule the day on PS3 by a huge margin.


    Rotanibor wrote: »
    steamwolf wrote: »
    Does the VX-SA have the same PCB as the VX-SA Kai?

    I'm ready to get like 10 Kai's if its proven to be the exact same PCB with the same S-tier input lag.
    Wish I had a VX-SA Kai to test, I'd like to know too. Chances are slim that I'll end up buying one though since I already have way too many sticks as it is (half of those sticks tested were mine...) But if I run into one I'll be sure to update this thread.
    I see in frames IRL
  • RotaniborRotanibor @ROTANIBOR Joined: Posts: 202
    Someone save fighting games and mail Teyah a Kai to test!
  • TeyahTeyah Return of the Dragon Joined: Posts: 1,125
    karapalm wrote: »
    I tried digging around but I couldn't find a very clear picture of the PCB for the Joytron Exchanger. Does it happen to be the same as the Paewang Revolution boards? Was hoping to see results for my sticks but thanks for the work. I really appreciated the detailed overview to help get some insight into your specific goals and mindset.
    Here's a quick picture of the inside of my EXChanger, if it helps any:
    http://www.teyah.net/sticklag/images/EXChangerPCB.jpg

    As for the pads, I'm afraid I won't be testing any of those unless I or someone I know happens to get a pad hack done. It wouldn't be totally crazy to guess that your pad would have similar lag to other PCBs from the same manufacturer on the same console, though.
    I see in frames IRL
  • VeliusVelius Joined: Posts: 270
    edited July 2014
    steamwolf wrote: »
    Does the VX-SA have the same PCB as the VX-SA Kai?

    according to this http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/181053/hori-rap-vx-sa-kai-dual-modding-help-how-do-i-connect-the-guide-and-select-buttons

    no

    but ive heard the fighting stick vx uses the same pcb as the hori vx-sa just no sanwa parts and you have to desolder the buttons.

    edit: this dude said they use the same pcb from 5 years ago

    http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/114455/joystick-input-lag-discussion

    end of the page
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,972 mod
    Lag test like these are great stack ups to see obvious flaws, but overall, to me, it becomes a witch hunt. Toodles always felt the same way AFAIK, since the ultimate equalizer is the human, wherein you will compensate for delays so long as they're not ridiculously long.

    The PRO stacks up as god awful, yet people win on them consistently. That's just one example. This type of thing is great for research purposes but I'm betting we'll get some folks in here going "zomg, I totally lost because my stick has a 1f delay" even though they've practiced on it for hundreds of hours, and won tons of matches.
    This. As @MarkMan has already pointed out, people have been winning on these things regardless of any input delay and, at the tested ratings, any lag isn't really detrimental to gameplay.
    Teyah wrote: »
    To be fair, the PS360+ should be at the top of the list for PlayStation only players, since it should be future upgradeable to work on PS4. If you don't care at all about XBox then it's a great PCB. Maybe PS34+ would be a more fitting name.

    Can we stop passing this bit of information around. Unless the PS360+ actually has a bluetooth chip on it (since we know that the PS4 constantly passes authentication challenges through bluetooth), this is likely not going to happen.
  • KT_paraKT_para Joined: Posts: 3
    edited July 2014
    Teyah wrote: »
    KT_para wrote: »
    does the HRAP VX-SA for ps3 use the same PCB?
    Unfortunately no, the Hori PCBs on PS3 are not nearly as good as on 360. They still beat out every other licensed PS3 arcade stick, but for whatever reason, third party PCBs rule the day on PS3 by a huge margin.


    Rotanibor wrote: »
    steamwolf wrote: »
    Does the VX-SA have the same PCB as the VX-SA Kai?

    I'm ready to get like 10 Kai's if its proven to be the exact same PCB with the same S-tier input lag.
    Wish I had a VX-SA Kai to test, I'd like to know too. Chances are slim that I'll end up buying one though since I already have way too many sticks as it is (half of those sticks tested were mine...) But if I run into one I'll be sure to update this thread.

    interesting, aprox how much is "not nearly as" tho?

    also

    what about the pc platform? I heard its supposed to be the closest to arcade in terms of delay
  • TeyahTeyah Return of the Dragon Joined: Posts: 1,125
    d3v wrote: »
    This. As @MarkMan has already pointed out, people have been winning on these things regardless of any input delay and, at the tested ratings, any lag isn't really detrimental to gameplay.

    So you are okay with playing on a screen which has 31 ms delay, as opposed to the tourney standard of 10 ms (per displaylag.com)? I mean I guess you might be, but some people just want the smoothest, most seamless play experience, you know?
    Can we stop passing this bit of information around. Unless the PS360+ actually has a bluetooth chip on it (since we know that the PS4 constantly passes authentication challenges through bluetooth), this is likely not going to happen.
    I guess you'll want to start here if you want this info to stop being passed around:
    http://akishop-customs.com/PS360Plus.html
    I see in frames IRL
  • VeliusVelius Joined: Posts: 270
    if the top players win, its still no problem.

    i guess if i to a tourney and bring shitty laggy monitors and the top players win then ive still done a good job.

    sigh
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,972 mod
    edited July 2014
    Teyah wrote: »
    d3v wrote: »
    This. As @MarkMan has already pointed out, people have been winning on these things regardless of any input delay and, at the tested ratings, any lag isn't really detrimental to gameplay.

    So you are okay with playing on a screen which has 31 ms delay, as opposed to the tourney standard of 10 ms (per displaylag.com)? I mean I guess you might be, but some people just want the smoothest, most seamless play experience, you know?
    Except, save for one instance, none of the tested sticks go beyond a single frame of lag.

    At the end of the day, it's just giving people another excuse to blame instead of simply leveling themselves up.

    "Optimal conditions" isn't something that should be used as a crutch (especially considering that top players have been winning consistently on the PRO). Better to learn to adapt to the hardware at hand instead of getting used only to one optimal setup(fun fact, at all 3 stream stations at SEAM2014, we just left sticks connected to the console and that's what 90% of the folks used).
    Teyah wrote: »
    Can we stop passing this bit of information around. Unless the PS360+ actually has a bluetooth chip on it (since we know that the PS4 constantly passes authentication challenges through bluetooth), this is likely not going to happen.
    I guess you'll want to start here if you want this info to stop being passed around:
    http://akishop-customs.com/PS360Plus.html
    Funny that you mention the beta when the experiences of those who are in it line up with the bluetooth requirement (i.e. the PS360+ cutting out after a few minutes due to the console not getting an auth reply via bluetooth).

    That's something Akishop needs to address and admit that's halted their progress.
  • VeliusVelius Joined: Posts: 270
    edited July 2014
    so most of you guys are using sf4 as an example even though that game has a ton of stupid tricks to make execution easier such as plinking/blinking/select plinking. technically i could make the argument that players adapt by not going for 1 frame combos as much and not going for optimal damage , because they know lag may be present.

    if we all played tekken/vampire savior/guilty gear, fuck anything else made before 2009, im sure we'd be alot more anal.

    and dont act like top players never complain about lag. if you're going to mention seam, how about you talk about xi'an complaining how there was lag on one of the monitors a few years back at seam. he plays gen, not some simple easy character, i'm sure he'd be affected by very intricate amounts of lag more than others because his character requires it.
  • michael_zerocademichael_zerocade Joined: Posts: 14
    I was wondering if you could comment on the firmware version that you tested the PS360+ on. And if you could possibly try running the test with the latest version of the firmware or a few different versions to see if firmware versions have any noticeable effect on the lag time. If not I would hope that this data can be taken back to Akishop in order to allow them to either try to adress the input lag via firmware or build a new chip. Seems like so much work by pcb manufacturers are tagging onto the PS360+ like crossbones, kaimana, etc when the performance option here is looking like the Paewang for stick builders. Kinda breaking my heart.
  • gahrlinggahrling Better safe than Hori.. Joined: Posts: 3,968
    Out of curiosity, which top players are still using the Fightstick PRO who aren't contractually obliged to by MadCatz? I don't remember seeing many (if any at all) at the recent big US tournaments.
  • Skatan MillaSkatan Milla Firecracker Thighs Joined: Posts: 2,094
    edited July 2014
    So to find out how much it affects you basically take (ms x 0.06) = frames of delay?

    If that is the case then as long as you are below 7ms it should be impossible to notice at less than 1f delay.

    -

    I guess it becomes noticable when playing on a 20~ms screen while also using a high ms stick.
    Twitter: @TruthFaceSkatan

    Swedish Firecracker
  • CoffeejuiceCoffeejuice Joined: Posts: 401
    i have a hard time believing rip-off 360 pcbs perform better than official ones. its not fair to test a pcb thats 5 years old vs one that recently manufactured. there's bound to be some kind of wear on the older boards.
  • RotaniborRotanibor @ROTANIBOR Joined: Posts: 202
    Velius wrote: »
    if we all played tekken/vampire savior/guilty gear, fuck anything else made before 2009, im sure we'd be alot more anal.

    Someone finally understands the plight of the Vampire Savior player. :')
  • aabyssxaabyssx Joined: Posts: 41
    I just ordered a 'zero delay' USB arcade encoder from an ebay seller. I wonder how much that really lags.
  • sm0ke52sm0ke52 Joined: Posts: 91
    I have the older ps360 PCB, I wonder if it has a the same latency as the ps360+?
  • gahrlinggahrling Better safe than Hori.. Joined: Posts: 3,968
    sm0ke52 wrote: »
    I have the older ps360 PCB, I wonder if it has a the same latency as the ps360+?


    I'd be surprised is it wasn't the same as the Etokki Omni results as it uses the same 'paewang' tech.
  • KomatikKomatik Card demon Joined: Posts: 2,669
    Steam/Fightcade:Coffeeling
    Xrd: ? | ST: Claw, Ryu, O.Sagat | 3S: Chun-Li, Akuma
  • noosetesternoosetester Joined: Posts: 856
    How was the ~2 frame additional input delay on the PS3 version of SF4 determined? The only test i've seen on it was some wonky recording where they counted the amount of time after a button press before a character moved on screen. IIRC they used the first round of mad catz sf4 sticks. Seeing these numbers, the difference in input lag between the versions could be attributed to the sticks themselves. Has a more reliable test been done?
  • CobraKaiCobraKai Joined: Posts: 584
    edited July 2014
    On the case of the Q4RAF which can be set into either XBOX mode or PS3 mode.

    Which mode is faster for using on PCs ?

    Is it the console thats causing the lag or which PCB it uses ?

    UPDATE:

    I used button masher http://buttonmasher.sourceforge.net/

    and determined it doesnt make any difference. Sometimes I get as low as 1ms. Highest I saw was 12ms.
  • PhreakazoidPhreakazoid Turkey Legs Incoming! Joined: Posts: 3,477
    edited July 2014
    Teyah wrote: »
    d3v wrote: »
    This. As @MarkMan has already pointed out, people have been winning on these things regardless of any input delay and, at the tested ratings, any lag isn't really detrimental to gameplay.

    So you are okay with playing on a screen which has 31 ms delay, as opposed to the tourney standard of 10 ms (per displaylag.com)? I mean I guess you might be, but some people just want the smoothest, most seamless play experience, you know?
    Can we stop passing this bit of information around. Unless the PS360+ actually has a bluetooth chip on it (since we know that the PS4 constantly passes authentication challenges through bluetooth), this is likely not going to happen.
    I guess you'll want to start here if you want this info to stop being passed around:
    http://akishop-customs.com/PS360Plus.html

    You're taking what he said out of context. A monitor's increase from 10ms to 31ms is leagues more than the differences you're talking about between these boards. That's what he's getting at in terms of the hardware and it being non-detrimental.


    I agree that swapping sticks can cause issues, but a solid stint of play would allow you to adjust in the short term. Amazingly, this is kind of what separates the top players from the rest, they don't just adapt to the game and their opponent, but also overcoming any shifts in their controller very quickly. Kind of a neat way to think of it anyway, since most top players borrow sticks like mad, and only once in a while turn down an offer on something specific as far as I've seen.
    Cerberus, easy dual mod for your TE ->www.phreakmods.com/products/cerberus
    Link JLF Detachable Joystick Shaft! -> www.PhreakMods.com/products/the-link
    Available @ FocusAttack.com -> http://www.focusattack.com/jlf-link/
    Available @ JasensCustoms.com -> https://www.jasenscustoms.com/PhreakMods-The-Link.html
    Available @ ParadiseAracadeShop.com -> http://www.paradisearcadeshop.com/fgc-featured/1124-the-link-jlf.html
  • RoboKrikitRoboKrikit nuclear Joined: Posts: 1,943
    There is a lot of posting about top players and lag. Top players will be top regardless because being good at fighting games does not center around lag statistics. Also you will adjust to whatever your setup is.

    But minimization of lag should still be the goal, and info on latency is useful to have. If you switch sticks mid tournament it would be nice to know if you are now getting an additional frame of delay or if it will be a negligible difference. If you test a game for lag it would be nice to know what additional delay you can expect from your input.
    How was the ~2 frame additional input delay on the PS3 version of SF4 determined? The only test i've seen on it was some wonky recording where they counted the amount of time after a button press before a character moved on screen. IIRC they used the first round of mad catz sf4 sticks. Seeing these numbers, the difference in input lag between the versions could be attributed to the sticks themselves. Has a more reliable test been done?

    SF4 was tested separately by 3 people in Tech Talk and we found that PS3 had 1 additional frame of lag. Someone else tested using TE Round 1 sticks and observed 2 additional frames of lag in PS3. That is the one people tend to remember because he was louder about it and posted in multiple threads.
  • TeyahTeyah Return of the Dragon Joined: Posts: 1,125
    edited July 2014
    Teyah wrote: »
    d3v wrote: »
    This. As @MarkMan has already pointed out, people have been winning on these things regardless of any input delay and, at the tested ratings, any lag isn't really detrimental to gameplay.

    So you are okay with playing on a screen which has 31 ms delay, as opposed to the tourney standard of 10 ms (per displaylag.com)? I mean I guess you might be, but some people just want the smoothest, most seamless play experience, you know?
    Can we stop passing this bit of information around. Unless the PS360+ actually has a bluetooth chip on it (since we know that the PS4 constantly passes authentication challenges through bluetooth), this is likely not going to happen.
    I guess you'll want to start here if you want this info to stop being passed around:
    http://akishop-customs.com/PS360Plus.html

    You're taking what he said out of context. A monitor's increase from 10ms to 31ms is leagues more than the differences you're talking about between these boards. That's what he's getting at in terms of the hardware and it being non-detrimental.

    It's not out of context - he's backing the assertion that "a few milliseconds" (like say, 21, which is the difference between the top 3 PS3 PCBs and the MCZ Pro) isn't going to have a detrimental effect on your play. Going from 2.1 to 23.5 ms on a PCB is efffectively the same as going from a 10 ms monitor to a 31 ms HDTV. Except that the guy beside you is still effectively playing on a 10 ms monitor.
    I see in frames IRL
  • DarksakulDarksakul Your lack of faith disturbs me Joined: Posts: 23,793
    edited July 2014
    steamwolf wrote: »
    Does the VX-SA have the same PCB as the VX-SA Kai?
    Short answer yes as the VX-SA is still in production and VX-SA Kai is not.
    Keep in mind older units would have a different revision of that PCB.
    Long answer, depends on the individual stick.

    Like the Mad Cat Round 1 TE for the Xbox 360 has 2 different revisions of their PCB
    Teyah wrote: »
    Unfortunately no, the Hori PCBs on PS3 are not nearly as good as on 360. They still beat out every other licensed PS3 arcade stick, but for whatever reason, third party PCBs rule the day on PS3 by a huge margin.
    I disagree, many of the older Hori PS3 PCBs are much more reliable and have a high compatibility than the newer PCBS, many of the 3rd party PCBs attempt to Emulate early Hori PS3 PCBs and even the Sega VSHG PCB compatibility although the old Sega VSHG PS3 PCBs have high compatibility but low reliability.
    Post edited by Darksakul on
    “Strong people don't put others down... They lift them up.”
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  • mIRCmIRC GOD OF SMPTE Joined: Posts: 7,445
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see how anyone could suggest you can adapt to input lag. Your test is designed to study button presses but I assume the lag has an impact on directional input as well. So let's say you have to block a 13 frame overhead. If you're playing on a stick with 23ms of delay, which is over 1 frame of lag, realistically you have 12 frames to block that overhead. That sounds huge to me and that's assuming everything else within your setup is peerless, whereas often it is not. People are bringing up how much important this would be in old games but fighting games are more than combos. SF4 has single frame "hard to blockables" and there is reason to suspect that playing on a bad device would have impacted someones success.

    I don't see how someone can "adjust." Your reaction times aren't going to increase by playing on a bad stick.
  • PhreakazoidPhreakazoid Turkey Legs Incoming! Joined: Posts: 3,477
    edited July 2014
    Teyah wrote: »
    It's not out of context - he's backing the assertion that "a few milliseconds" (like say, 21, which is the difference between the top 3 PS3 PCBs and the MCZ Pro) isn't going to have a detrimental effect on your play. Going from 2.1 to 23.5 ms on a PCB is efffectively the same as going from a 10 ms monitor to a 31 ms HDTV. Except that the guy beside you is still effectively playing on a 10 ms monitor.

    Fair point, I didn't take the extreme, more the median values. That's what happens when I type before I have coffee in the morning.

    It's good to know this information, even better for developers to see it in plain text to perhaps adjust and try and improve their hardware in the next revisions to compensate. Transparency is a good thing, maybe this will get devs to take this more into account to help remove the sticks as much as possible from the variance.

    Speaking of which, no Cerberus to include in the testing?
    Cerberus, easy dual mod for your TE ->www.phreakmods.com/products/cerberus
    Link JLF Detachable Joystick Shaft! -> www.PhreakMods.com/products/the-link
    Available @ FocusAttack.com -> http://www.focusattack.com/jlf-link/
    Available @ JasensCustoms.com -> https://www.jasenscustoms.com/PhreakMods-The-Link.html
    Available @ ParadiseAracadeShop.com -> http://www.paradisearcadeshop.com/fgc-featured/1124-the-link-jlf.html
  • TeyahTeyah Return of the Dragon Joined: Posts: 1,125
    Darksakul wrote: »
    Teyah wrote: »
    Unfortunately no, the Hori PCBs on PS3 are not nearly as good as on 360. They still beat out every other licensed PS3 arcade stick, but for whatever reason, third party PCBs rule the day on PS3 by a huge margin.
    I disagree, many of the older Hori PS3 PCBs are much more reliable and have a high compatibility than the newer PCBS, many of the 3rd party PCBs attempt to Emulate early Hori PS3 PCBs and even the Sega VSHG PCB compatibility although the old Sega VSHG PS3 PCBs have high compatibility but low reliability.
    I'm speaking entirely in terms of input delay results (is. The topic of this thread), not other qualitative factors, sorry for the confusion. I do hold Hori products in very high regard.
    I see in frames IRL
  • mIRCmIRC GOD OF SMPTE Joined: Posts: 7,445
    The average human reaction time to visual stimuli is 215ms, which is why I used 13 frames as an example above. One frame delay is a huge difference within that circumstance.
  • KomatikKomatik Card demon Joined: Posts: 2,669
    Darksakul wrote: »
    Tebbo wrote: »
    d3v wrote: »
    Except, save for one instance, none of the tested sticks go beyond a single frame of lag.

    a single frame is pretty big dude.

    this just confirms that all the skepticism about 3S on anything but cps3 has been warranted. so many variables which add just a bit more delay and/or a bit more gameplay speed. which just compounds things and makes it feel that much more wrong. at every step it gets shittier and shittier compared to what it was designed to be.

    for once the purists aren't insane.

    how do you adapt to input lag? you guess, duh.
    1 frame in a 60 fps video is 16.6667 MS
    Human reaction time varies from 18 ms to 300 ms

    You purist are still nuts.

    18ms? wut. Source?
    Steam/Fightcade:Coffeeling
    Xrd: ? | ST: Claw, Ryu, O.Sagat | 3S: Chun-Li, Akuma
  • TeyahTeyah Return of the Dragon Joined: Posts: 1,125
    To some people, myself included, 1 frame of extra delay beyond what one is used to is pretty noticeable. Anything more than that and it becomes a pretty glaring annoyance.

    Take SFxT for example. I've read many times on this forum that people feel that movement in that game feels like "walking in mud". This is mainly caused by the high amount of input lag in (360) SFxT as compared to SF4. The difference? Just 1.5 extra frames (+25 ms) of delay.
    I see in frames IRL
  • blood spit nightblood spit night Joined: Posts: 96
    Can you test HRAP EX and HRAP EX-SE? (if they use a different pcb)
  • TeyahTeyah Return of the Dragon Joined: Posts: 1,125
    I'd love to test all of these sticks you guys are suggesting, but since I'm done buying sticks for the most part, I'm limited to what's available in my area. I mean I guess I could borrow some sticks and do it at Evo, but I don't want to be spending my Evo trip sitting in my hotel room doing this sort of thing, ya know?
    I see in frames IRL
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