Rear Flip Kick (DF + LK) Best Uses?

DanTheTimidDanTheTimid The Timid DiscipleJoined: Posts: 159
edited September 2014 in Chun Li
Hi fellow Chun-li players, I come bearing a couple questions. Namely, in what match ups and in what situations do you find read flip kick (df + lk) most useful since the change to it in ultra? I never used chun prior to ultra, so I have no idea how good or bad it may have been in the past, but I'm struggling to find uses for it and rarely see it used in videos I watch online. Is there a trick to using it to not get it to trade with so many things? It seems to only hit directly in front of her head, so anything deep on her head or crossing up doesn't seem to work against it, also it seems like it does work against anything that would hit her feet, like a well place dive kick, and that it isn't very useful against most jump ins after knock downs since they're either aiming for her head to stuff ex bird which also seems to stuff this move, or they're just too meaty for the long start up for rear flip kick. The absolute worst is when they actually come int at the right angle that I think I should hit, but I guess I activated it too soon and the extremely brief 2 active frames expires just before they move into range.

Obviously, like all of Chun-'s anti-airs, spacing plays a huge part, so there's no one go to move in any match up or against any specific move, but are there certain match ups or specials/jump normals you find rear spin kick most useful against and thus always keep it in the back of your mind, ready to throw out?

Also, do you only activate it when you've got ultra? 40 damage if I get the timing just right to clean stuff a jump in that would have scored them a heck of a lot more damage if I miss time it or mis judged the distance is pretty unimpressive, but I don't seem to have any good follow up outside of ultra, or maybe dash forward ex legs if I got them high enough, and even then I'm not sure the little extra damage that adds is worth the meter. And adding further insult to injury, quite frequently I can't even combo ultras off it since holding df to do the move gives up your charge for ultra 1 meaning you gotta hope they're not to low to the ground by the time you have charge for ultra 1 or you go right over, and often times it knocks them too far to even get caught by the normally extremely reliable ultra 2.

I don't know, maybe the move is just really specialized in its use, but figured I'd ask as I remember watching streams of early builds of ultra where combofiend was constantly complaining that the chun playesters at the test site weren't using this move, as if he believed it was much more useful now so wanted to make sure I'm not missing something, and if I am, have a better idea of what match ups I should be looking to use this tool in, and in what situations or against what sort of jump ins/specials.

Comments

  • ExvarisExvaris Arcade ∞ Joined: Posts: 2,879
    I've never seen U2 miss when I anti-air with df+LK, but that's my experience personally. I guess I can see how it COULD miss, though.

    I'd say df+LK is a pretty reliable anti-air again. It's not as good as it was in Super, but it's still pretty solid.

    It combos into headstomps or EX Legs (usually with a forward dash first). Headstomps do surprising amounts of damage actually, so if you can pull that off it's a decent chunk of meterless damage to punish someone for jumping in once.
    «勝兵先勝而後求戰,敗兵先戰而後求勝。»
    "Victorious warriors win first, then go to war; defeated warriors go to war first, then seek to win."
    - Sun Tzu, The Art of War
    ---
  • NecrotrophicNecrotrophic Isn't a communist. Joined: Posts: 5,926
    I dont really use it, I probably should though.

    I feel like its a lot more character and spacing specific than it was in super, so if someone could share some insight on that, it would be good.
    Northeast PA
    570 Necro
  • DanTheTimidDanTheTimid The Timid Disciple Joined: Posts: 159
    edited September 2014
    Well I've been trying to find a good video or even just screen shots of the various hit boxes and hurt boxes it has from start to finish in order to better understand how I should use it. I've had no luck finding videos or multiple pictures at various stages, and none that I've found seem to suggest she had any upper body immunity despite previous patch notes I found suggesting it used to, but from what I can tell from the pictures I have dredged up, it looks like the hit box uses to be much wider, going out quite a few pixels past the end of her knee and lasting all the way back to her mid torso, with the same bottom (maybe lower to, hard to tell) but slightly less height on the box overal, on chun in arcade edition (though I'm not sure if the pictures I found were improperly listed and actually super's hit boxes), while in ultra the hit box is a little higher, but much thinner, only just going out to the edge of her knee and ending about half way through her thigh.

    Because of this change, her overall hitbox size and range seems to be decreased, resulting in her needing to wait until nearly the absolute last second to perform the rear spin kick, or the brief active frames will whiff and you'll eat a fat combo. It also is theoretically a little worse against cross ups and attacks from above (the ones that would stuff an ex bird), but if you can catch them with the extra height on it prior to them getting to the newly vulnerable middle section of her body, you can call that a wash. The fact that you do you have to hit them sooner and that the hit boxes you'll be hitting them with are always in front of you may be why its more common for your opponent to get launched way out far in front of you where its difficult if not impossible to follow up with anything (aka, the situations where I throw out ultra 2 but they arc safely over the outer edge of the hit box), but I'm not entirely certain about this since the thinner hit box also means you can't hit people from as far out in front of you as you used to be able to as well.

    Even though I can't find a single document stating this, I strongly suspect the upper body immunity she apparently used to have was secretly nerfed, from frames 4 to 12 as it used to be, to... something else. What that something else is, I can't say, 4-10? Maybe it was removed all together? Not sure, but do to the plethora of trades I find myself having when I use this move, I'm almost positive she has no upper body immunity during her active frames, which are currently 11-13, which would have put it during the upper body immunity it supposedly has.

    I think the increased recovery on it might also be making comboin'g off it ever so slightly harder, but its just 1 frame so hard to say, perhaps in the situations my ulra 2 is wiffing I just need to do a dash forward ultra 2 or something, will have to test more in training room.

    Anyway, thank you all for the feed back so far, hope to hear more!

    Edit: Also just wanted to mention that I didn't know you could combo into heel stomps (I'd tried a few times before in training but couldn't get it to land so held off on trying anymore until I learned if it was even possible), so I'm definitely going to be practicing the heck out of that. In theory, if you can consistently land a full trio of heel stomp off it, that bursts its damage from pitiful to hp DP levels, and could easily make this her best anti-air. st.hp and st.hk would still have better range, but seems like it would nearly obeselete my current stample anti-air, st.mk.
    Post edited by DanTheTimid on
  • NecrotrophicNecrotrophic Isn't a communist. Joined: Posts: 5,926
    edited September 2014
    seems like its pretty reliable against Ken, who is kind of hard to anti air in my opinion. If you're zoning and he jumps, it usually catches him clean.
    Northeast PA
    570 Necro
  • DanTheTimidDanTheTimid The Timid Disciple Joined: Posts: 159
    I'm going to go ahead and confirm what Necrotrophic said, I just faced a wide range of various ken's on ranked, and made it a point to read flip kick every jump in, and I don't think I failed to stuff him even once, multiple times I was able to use it to combo into ultra. I feel like making this one move a core part of my ken match up game plan really improved the match up for me.

    On a flip side, I spent probably a good half hour to an hour testing it against cammy's cannon strike in training lab and it seems to be very lack luster against it, getting stuff except with extremely precise timing and near perfect positioning, and I was only using it against regular cannon strike, not even her much more formidable ex version. She also happens to be one of the characters that its very hard to combo into utlra off of. From pretty much every range and height that rear flip kick can actually beat or trade with cannon strike, it launches her too far to go right to ultra, for some of them I was able to still get ultra by walking forward and then ultra-ing, but a few seemed to be just a little too far for even that to catch (though its possible it was just execution errors on my part and if I'd done everything faster I would have made it).

    So my opinion, based on my tests with it so far today, is that the rear spin kick use list is:

    Rear Spin Kick
    Good vs - Ken
    Bad vs - Cammy
  • PaolochunPaolochun so that I / can say I'm on your side Joined: Posts: 11,381 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Don't forget df+lk hits -> dash -> EX leg
    "The secret to strength is daily training."
    Chun-Li Street Fighter V training mode
  • DanTheTimidDanTheTimid The Timid Disciple Joined: Posts: 159
    edited September 2014
    So after a couple more hours of tests I'm definitely much better at dashing into ex legs after a rear spin kick, which seems like in theory it would make up the space gap issue for ultra 2 and give more damage (and though I haven't tested it, probably give enough time to charge for ultra 1, which it has a lot of carry between the spin kick and the ex legs so from mid screen you could probably land full ultra 1 on everyone but poison), though reliant on you having ex meter.

    Unfortunately, however, I can not seem to do anything with out meter. The best I've done was against zangief, if he goes for a bod slam really deep, because his hurt box is huge, its possible to hit him with rear spin kick even though he's practically crossing you up, then, because he's so deep on you, its possible to immediately jump and get a full 3 heel stomp chain. In all other situations, however, I can not get heel stomps to land. Even on gief, off a dash forward, the stomps always seem to wiff. Not sure if I'm just doing something wrong or if the situations where you can heel stomp off a rear spin kick are really really limited. Any advice on when you can get a heel stomp off this (or what I'm doing wrong if you should almost always be able to) would be greatly appreciated.

    Edit: So keeping at it against gief specifically since I figured with his big hurt box, if I could heel stomp anyone, it would be him, I finally got it to land off a dash. Seems like the attack has to still be pretty deep, but not quite as deep as the distance from which you don't even need the dash. There does still seem to be a cross up depth at which gief can by pass your rear kicks hit box and hit you though, so I'm not sure if any of this is even going to be useful against a good player who is jumping at your back shoulder or diving at your feet, both of which places are left vulnerable by rear spin kick, but still good to know I suppose.

    The more I test it, the more I'm starting to feel like that if you don't have the ultra to convert into, you're probably better of just going for a jump throw or FA back dash. With out meter, I'm not really seeing stomps as a reliable conversion, and while if I wait till the absolute last frame to get my ex legs out after the dash I can get a solid 200 total damage off RFK dash ex legs, most of the time I get 160 or even 120, yet in most of the situations where I have 10 frames to get out a RFK I could have done a jump throw and gotten 150 for no meter and very little chance of execution error, or better yet jump target combo into almost guaranteed heel stomps for 236 damage off no meter.

    Still I'm gonna continue to try it against different things and different match ups and see if anything else shows up that seems useful, definitely still hopeful to hear more match up or counter move advise for RFK from the vets as well.

    Edit2: Well that was unexpected, so trying the same set up (RFK -> Dash -> jump -> heel stomps) against Poison has resulted in much more consistency in getting the move out. I was expecting the situation to be worse do to Poison's wonky hurt box, but some how stomps seem much easier to land, Able to get the full 180 damage off quite a few distances and angles. This is very hope inspiring. Now I'm wishing I'd have started practicing against her first (or maybe I'm just better at timing things because I've been sitting here practicing this for something like 5 hours now X-D ).
    Post edited by DanTheTimid on
  • ExvarisExvaris Arcade ∞ Joined: Posts: 2,879
    Yes, back before EX Kikoken caused knockdown I used to do this stupid unnecessary four-bar style combo in training mode:

    In the corner
    cr.HP xx HK Legs ~ MK Extension > cr.MK xx EX Kikoken xx FA Level 2 [Crumple] dash cancel forward > Wait > df+LK [Launcher] > Dash forward EX Legs > Ultra 1

    So yes, you can definitely charge for U1 in the time it takes for you to dash EX Legs. It can be kind of hard though.
    «勝兵先勝而後求戰,敗兵先戰而後求勝。»
    "Victorious warriors win first, then go to war; defeated warriors go to war first, then seek to win."
    - Sun Tzu, The Art of War
    ---
  • DanTheTimidDanTheTimid The Timid Disciple Joined: Posts: 159
    edited September 2014
    RFK VS M.Bison (Dictator)

    To start, and I admit up front this is probably not exceptionally helpful, since I feel like the best response to a dictator head press is probably just walk forward (or backward) and then punishing the recovery on his landing, but as it always annoyed me that head press stuffs ex bird I did some tests with RFK and it apparently stuffs head press clean and because he's so deep (or because bison is so floaty) its really easy to just walk a couple steps and jump heel stomp him, which is probably more satisfying then it should be since he was trying to stomp you but got stomped instead. As a side note, if your only getting 1 or 2 stomps to land, your not walking far enough forward, you've got to walk until just before he's touching the ground, then jump instant heel stomp to get all 3 stomps to hit. Since the attack counts as a counter hit you get 190 damage off it for 0 meter and a knock down. Even with the speed buff to his devils reverse descent in ultra, as far as I can tell he can't use it to punish you, in fact if he tries to glowing hand you, you actually have enough time for another RFK to beat that clean too. The timing is strict though (you need to have wiffed the first pretty early), and if he angles it right it seems like he can dodge the hit box and cross you up with it, so probably still better to just block and punish that when he lands.

    At point blank you can beat his double knee press (scissor kicks) with RFK to, but because of the start up you basically have to predict it, and if you predict wrong, you're eating his fattest combo (or at least the very knee press you were trying to stuff), so not recommended, but was kind of cool to see that it was possible and that I could combo to ultra from it off a read if my opponent is being too predictable with his double knee press pressure. The best I could see to get with it against psycho crusher though was a trade, and it was in his favor as he recovered before I did. Similarly, you can technically stuff his pyscho punisher ultra 2 with RFK, but only if he actually drops down right in front of you, which he doesn't actually need to do and unless he's awful, he's not doing pyscho punisher in a situation where you'd be able to RFK, but was fun to do in training none the less.

    As for his actual jump in, if he does j.hp from far away, and your not recovering from fireball he predict jumped over, RFK does stuff him clean, though obviously its harder to get the full stomps off since he's naturally going to fly further away. If he does j.hp deep, not even cross up deep but just like right on your head, j.hp actually seems to beat RFK clean, looking at shots of his Ultra hurt box on this move it looks like this is because his hurt box becomes really small and moves really far forward, so definitely not the be-all end all of anti-airs in this match up as j.hp seems almost tailor made to exploit RFKs new skinny hit box. Having said that, bison's jump is really floaty (not unlike Chun's) so I don't typically have them jumping at me a lot unless its a cross up attempt on wake up. Jump target combo and jump throw seem to beat j.hp pretty well, but you have to watch out that he's not baiting you into his own target combo as its one of the few ways he can actually combo into his ultras. Also, this probably shouldn't come as a shock, but his j.mk he uses primarily as a cross up stuffs RFK... when used as a cross up. You can beat it clean if he uses it in your face since its hurt box is much bigger then j.hp's, but I'm not sure why a bison would ever do that other then as the result of an execution error.

    Final Verdict: Doesn't seem like its really needed in this match up, if you want to get fancy it can beat head stomps, but if you have a enough time to RFK you have enough time to just walk out of the way and give yourself a punching dummy from which you can get a potentially larger combo, and its only really reliable against j.hp from a distance. Personally I don't really feel like I need an anti-air all that much in this match up anyway, but its good to know what my options are.

    Edit: By the way, thank you SnakeAes for the confirmation on that, ultra 2 is already a pretty solid anti-air on its own but comboing into ultra 1 from RFK seems like a good way to turn ultra 1 into an anti-air tool in its own right, albeit with the usual air ultra 1 caveat of requiring they be backed up into their side of the stage.
  • DanTheTimidDanTheTimid The Timid Disciple Joined: Posts: 159
    RFK vs Dive Kickers (Cammy)

    So after more tests this morning it seems to me that RFK does still have some upper body invincibility, not sure when the first frame of the invincibility starts is, but it seems like it once again goes right up until the frame before the first active frame of the attack. This is important because I'm finding, if your going to use this move at all against dive kickers, you generally want to do it later then sooner. The reason being that their ability to alter both their arc, and timing, allows them to play mind games on you and often stuff RFK, but if you do it a little late, at worst you trade since their attack goes through your upper body immunity, then hits you at the same moment RFK also hits them, and depending on the hit stun of what you traded with might still have a chance to combo to something, and if your lucky they delayed their descent and you actually beat it clean.

    In an unrelated note to dive kickers but relevant to RFK in general, I'm finding that the trick (for me) to consistently get an ex legs after the dash is to start mashing for the ex legs immediately upon doing the RFK and through the dash. Maybe its just the rate at which I'm mashing, but it seems like the dash takes priority over ex legs, so the dash comes out instead, but you've got all the kicks you need buffered so that after the dash you can hit the last 2 kicks together with whatever timing you need to get ex legs with the full damage off it based on where your opponent is in their descent.

    On another cammy related note, I'm not sure if this is true for all dive kickers but it really seems like she flys much further away off a stuffed or traded dive kick then her jump normals, seemingly making it impossible to stomp or straight ultra 2 her after them. She is definitely reachable with dash ex legs though which can obviously then convert to ultra 2, if only just on the outer edge, and there were a few times I thought I almost landed stomps off a double dash into them but it seems like she always hits the ground just before I can get the stomp out. Double dash into ex legs of any of the extra long launches seems to consistently get the full 200, which is nice, but seems a bit dangerous since if I build that into my muscle memory I can see myself double dashing right under a stuffed normal, missing the punish and probably wasting a meter. Anyway, as far as the stomps, not sure if I'm just not fast enough with my instant stomps, or if its really just not possible. Either way, in a live match against a Cammy I think I'm only going to even try RFK if I have the meter for an ex legs as that seems like the only thing I can consistently combo into off a RFK against Cammy.
  • BilerotBilerot Joined: Posts: 78
    I don`t have anything to add, but I wanted to thank you for this work, much appreciated!
  • NecrotrophicNecrotrophic Isn't a communist. Joined: Posts: 5,926
    it probably wouldnt be a bad idea to start an anti air thread with each character listed and to display notes which anti air is good for them and in what situations.
    Northeast PA
    570 Necro
  • DanTheTimidDanTheTimid The Timid Disciple Joined: Posts: 159
    edited September 2014
    it probably wouldnt be a bad idea to start an anti air thread with each character listed and to display notes which anti air is good for them and in what situations.

    That was actually what I was originally looking for in this forum before I made this thread, but as I couldn't find it, and I lack the experience and match up knowldge to make one myself, I decided to reduce the scope of my question to just RFK. If anyone's willing to put in the time to make such a thread, I'm certainly willing to add in whatever I can discover in the training room to help out, but I definitely lack the experience of the vets here to know what the commonly used air attacks and set ups are which are really what determine the best anti-airs in a given match up I would think.

    Edit: Also I appreciate the thanks Bilerot, I may be new, but I hate just asking questions and want to do whatever I can to provide useful information, even if it takes me several hours in training room to confirm what probably most of the vet's already know off the top of their head.
  • NecrotrophicNecrotrophic Isn't a communist. Joined: Posts: 5,926
    edited September 2014
    most of the time I just use st.mk so im sure other people here have a lot more to offer. Maybe start a thread? we will all contribute.
    Northeast PA
    570 Necro
  • DanTheTimidDanTheTimid The Timid Disciple Joined: Posts: 159
    RFK vs Poison

    So I mentioned in an earlier post that I was shocked to find how easy it was to combo into heel stomps off RFK on poison, and that remains true. In fact, if poison takes to the air, RFK seems extremely solid at stuffing EVERY normal she has at her disposal. Having said that, she does indeed have that wonky hit box, so there have been plenty of weird situations I've found in training where it visually looks like I should have hit her with the rfk but instead we both wiffed despite being close enough to kiss. On the plus side, most of those situations seem to be when she does her normal extremely late, meaning more recovery for her on her landing, and less likely hood she'll be able to punish you for your own wiffed RFK.

    Now, having noted that RFK > Poison in the air... that is NOT true for love me tender, her instant over head. The hit box on love me tender is pretty much tailor made to stuff RFK, with its hit box shooting out far forward while her hut box is up and away, allowing her to go over RFK's hit box and smash chun on the top of the head. Even on trade things aren't exactly in chun's favor since it also results is a hard knock down, preventing any combo out of the trade, and LMT does a base 90 to RFK's 40. RFK WILL stuff love me tender if you do it REALLY early though, I'm talking immediately on reaction to seeing her do it, since the actual active frames don't come out instantly but she begins moving herself toward you right away. But because of the 10 frame start up of RFK and how quickly LMT both becomes active, and just in general gets on top of you, there isn't a whole lot of fudge room, so I don't know if I'd even try it online unless you've got a really good connection.

    Because of this... I'm not sure how viable RFK really is in this match up. Obviously once she's in the air RFK to your hearts delight, its pretty much a guaranteed 190 damage with the stomps for 0 meter from anywhere against anything she has in the air. BUT... how often do poisons actually jump at you when they can love me tender you instead, and as already discussed, unless you do it on almost immediate reaction, LMT > RFK.

    I did all this testing all in the training room, so its very possible I'll change my opinion once I try it more in actual matches. At the very least its good to know that there is a timing in which RFK can stuff LMT, in-case you're facing an opponent whose getting predictable with it do to how obnoxiously safe it is on block (-1 like bisons double knee press). And again, for whatever reason, Poison has remained by far the easiest person to RFK into head stomps from anywhere, so it would behoove Poisons not to jump at any chun who knows what they're doing.
  • DanTheTimidDanTheTimid The Timid Disciple Joined: Posts: 159
    RFK vs Cody

    The simple answer is don't use it in this match up... but thats not really true. More like you better REALLY know what your doing if your going to use it. I don't know what it is about Cody's jump-ins but the timing to stuff them feels much tighter then against other characters I've tested RFK against. Use it too soon? You're getting stuffed. Use it too late? You're probably getting counter hit stuffed, getting a trade if your lucky. But there's a very brief window of time in the middle, when Cody and his goldy locks are just right to be RFK'd. Even then, however, I find it exceptionally hard to get any stomps off a clean RFK, usually dash ex legs and ultra 2 or dash ex legs to ultra are your only ways of actually converting this into anything meaningful.

    Counter intuitively, however, I've found that RFK is actually BETTER against Cody when he has the knife. Looking at the hit and hurt boxes between Cody's j.hp with and with out the knife, with out the knife he pulls the lower half of his body upward and comes down at angle, shoulder (hit box) first, creating pretty much the ideal hit and hurt box to beat RFK, while with the knife his body and consequently his hurt box remains horizontal to the ground, allowing RFK to catch his hurt box before his hit box can reach her, even on surprisingly deep jump ins. If you can get him deep, combo-ing RFK into whatever you want after also becomes a heck of a lot easier.

    Final Verdict: Personally, based on my tests, I don't plan to use RFK against cody when he's knife less, but plan to ALWAYS go to it if he jumps while holding the knife. As such, how useful RFK is in this match up will be largely effected by how frequently your opponent encorporates the knife into his game play, as well as if he actually jumps in while holding it.

    (On a side note, I HATE double posting, should I be packing these all together in a single monster post, or is breaking this stuff up into separate posts the most reader friendly way to share this sort of information?)
  • DanTheTimidDanTheTimid The Timid Disciple Joined: Posts: 159
    RFK vs Kikosho

    So one thing I've been battling with is why should I ever RFK into ultra 2 instead of just ultra 2. After all, RFK to U2 does less damage then just straight ultra 2, ultra 2 covers a much wider range with its attack, is active longer, and has more invulnerability. For a while the only reasoning I could come up with was if you combo RFK to ex legs to ultra, you get more damage then just straight ultra, not a ton more, but in the right situations it could certainly be worth it. However, upon comparing RFK to U2 more closely as anti-airs I've found something that most of the vets probably knew but I did not.

    Kikosho causes chun-li to step forward. That might not sound like a big deal, but it actually is. If you just compared the hit box and hurt box of RFK and U2, U2 looks vastly superior, but what you don't see from screen shots is the characters current location relative to where they were when they started the move. I don't know about the rest of you, but I've lost way to many matches where my opponent jumped at me, I was certain they were going to hit me in the face, I ultra 2'd, and some how they went right over me, then did a max damage combo on me during the U2 recovery. For the longest time I thought I was just bad at judging distance or something, but as it turns out, if your opponent is jump kicking such that their foot should hit your face, if you U2, you'll step under the kick prior to doing the giant kikoken. To get kikosho to anti-air they either need to be coming down at your chest or lower, or coming down in front of you (such as via a neutral jump). As a side note, I learned that the distance from which I can punish an empty neutral jump with ultra 2 is actually much better then I realized.

    But what this means for RFK is that, if your opponent is coming toward your head, RFK to U2 IS better then straight ultra 2 in most situations, since it does not move you forward, and its directly in front of your head where the hit box is. Same thing with on the end or cross up distances, depending on the hurt box of the attack RFK might get stuffed or wiff, but neither of those is going to be as bad as the punish your probably going to face from a wiffed U2.

    RFK vs E. Ryu

    So Ryu with a dive kick, its a thing, and I'm not a fan. Especially since the dive kick almost seems to have been custom made to stuff ex birds. But fear not, RFK is actually okay against it. Just like other dive kicks, I recommend aiming for later then sooner, both to make sure that the timing doesn't throw you off, and that maybe if he doesn't go for the kick but a cross up normal, it misses your back shoulder do to the upper body invulnerability. Now the angle of the dive kick is another one of those that means he can get over your hit box and stuff you entirely, but its a very precise spot where this is possible, a little further forward or backward and he either wiffs, or you can stuff him, so unless he's doing it after a knock down, simply taking a step forward or backward can be enough to allow RFK to work.

    As for his jumping normals, I didn't find any were particularly bothersome for RFK, I was stuffing them all with ease, including with the slightly delayed timing. Pretty much all of his jumping normals have extremely wide, flat, hurt boxes, usually lower then the actual hit boxes, making them pretty much ideal for RFK to stuff, even on deep jump ins.

    The biggest issue RFK has in this match up, however, is actually not stuffing the move, but what to do after one. Most of the time off a trade you can ultra 2... but who uses ultra 2 vs evil ryu? And if you can ultra 1 off a trade, I haven't pulled it off myself and not for lack of effort you can be certain. Depending on how deep the trade was you might be able to get a little ex legs damage off a trade, but more then likely only just enough to come out slightly better then even on the damage trade overall, which is not good when you have to use a meter to trade evenly with a free command normal. On pure stuff you can easily combo to ex legs with out issue, so there's always that, but I still haven't managed to ultra 1 after a legs despite effort there as well, obviously if you can this becomes a heck of a lot better, but so far it seems impossible based on my skill and tests. You can some times land some stomps, very rarely all three, usually 1 or 2, and at some distances it seems like 0. Unlike poison, where you almost have to not be trying not to land stomps, e-ryu's fall speed and arc mean you basically want to keep walking forward until just the moment before he'd hit the ground and then instant heal stomp, any sooner and you'll almost always wiff the stomps from my testing.

    This basically means your often not getting more then 100/110 damage off a stuff, which isn't awful, but its questionable if the risk outweighs the reward here, especially considering how difficult the stomp timing is so you might even get only 40/50. Having said all that, 160 damage off a RFK dash to ex legs isn't that bad for a meter (ex kikoken only gives 100 if lands, after all), and since his dive kick does stuff ex bird as well as it does, you could use this as an ex bird anti-air replacement. While corner carry is rarely a huge point of emphasis for me vs Evil Ryu, it does count for something as well that it does carry him a little bit.

    Final Verdict: The only real negative I have for RFK in this match up is the lack of potential to turn it into big damage. Simply put, your probably not going to scare your opponent out of dive kicking or jumping at you with RFK in this match up... but that doens't mean its still not useful. Even if you only get 1 stomp, its still more damage then st.mk, and it doesn't raise the height of your hurt box like st.mk does either. I don't see it as an essential tool in the match up or anything, but not necessarily a bad thing to have in your back pocket in case your e ryu opponent trys to dive kick your ex birds.
  • PaolochunPaolochun so that I / can say I'm on your side Joined: Posts: 11,381 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    No, multi posts are okay at least for this part of the forums. It's kind of quiet anyway, and useful posts are always appreciated. :3
    "The secret to strength is daily training."
    Chun-Li Street Fighter V training mode
  • DanTheTimidDanTheTimid The Timid Disciple Joined: Posts: 159
    edited September 2014
    Good to know, happy to hear some one else is finding this useful. Anyway, now to share the fruits of my time in training tonight.

    RFK vs Ibuki

    So just looking at Ibuki's hit and hurt box on her aerial options you'd think RFK would be amazing here. Pretty much everything has a wide flat hurt box, which is prime pickings for RFK. And against her jump normals, this holds true. Everything I tried this against, including her target combo, I was able to stuff easily and convert into big damage. Unlike poison, you can't really just walk forward heel stomp to get all 3, doing so will only get 1, however, unlike e-ryu, Ibuki does fall slow enough that you can dash forward and usually get all all 3 heel stomps after the dash to land. So different technique, but same result, solid meterless damage off an rfk. Obviously all the usual ex legs and ultra 2 stuff works too.

    So where's the problem? Well the first is jump forward kunai. RFK can deflect the kunai just fine if you time it right, but that timing is really early, meaning you almost have to predict the kunai, if you wait to hit RFK till the timing when you'd have stuffed a jump in normal the kunai will knock you out of the RFK resulting in a knock down. If you do deflect it, you do recover before she does though, so you do get a free cr.lk to legs combo, maybe better, didn't test it beyond seeing if I could cr.lk before she could block. Now because of that recovery I don't get a ton of ibuki jumping at me with kunais, but still worth noting.

    Second and more relevantly, is Hien. Despite a hit and hut box that seems like it should be good for RFK, this move just gets on top of chun to fast. Even in training, knowing the move was coming because it was the only thing I had queu'd up, Hien completely stuffed RFK on my quickest reaction EVERY time.

    Final Verdict: I feel like this match up is very similar to Poison in that Ibuki has an instant air special that completely destroys RFK, but all her actual air normals lose to RFK, with the extra wrinkle of a possible kunai to worry about. In the event ibuki is actually jumping at you, its worth keeping RFK in the back of your mind as you can stuff any jump normal and easily dash into full heel stomps (or just ex legs to ultra 2... or even just ultra 2). If you see Hien coming though, st.mk still seems like the best option.
    Post edited by DanTheTimid on
  • DanTheTimidDanTheTimid The Timid Disciple Joined: Posts: 159
    Before I start with today's character (and sorry this aren't in alphabetical order or anything by the way), just a correction I wanted to make to a previous post, RFK does NOT keep you in the same location, but actually moves you back slightly. This is important because it helps catch people who would have other wise crossed you up and in some cases can give you an extra frame or two before they reach you that is needed to compensate for the 10 frame start up. Anyway, with out further adieu...

    RFK vs Fei Long

    So lets get the chicken wing out of the way right away. At first I was really struggling against this move, but once I got the timing down, it was almost trivial to stuff every time. The trick is to find that timing right before you think you should want to RFK, and let the momentum of his chicken wing move his hurt box into your hit box. Perhaps a little counter intuitively it feels like its a little easier to stuff from close or mid range then long range where you have the time to really get the timing down, but I think it has to do with the fact that he has 3 very different hit and hurt boxes at start, middle, and end, and the end one is the one that gives RFK the most trouble. Still, I stuffed it in all 3 phases pretty consistently, so while I would do a little testing on the timing before using this in a match, certainly seems like a good tool to remove chicken wings from fei's arsenal if you've got good reactions (obviously its easier for me when thats the only thing I've recorded him to do in training).

    Vs his normals... this was more of a mixed bag. Most of his stuff has the use big flat hit boxes rfk loves to stuff, but his j.mp actually has an exceptionally good hit box that makes it extraordinarily difficult to anti-air with anything, RFK or other wise. Ultimately, after spending quite some time trying to find a good timing to stuff it with out success, I decided it seemed like the best option was simply to low profile it with cr.mp or cr.mk. In theory, after looking at the hit box and hurt box, there should be a very brief window, like maybe 1 frame, where you can hit him with rfk before he can hit you with j.mp, so maybe if you've got better physical dexterity then myself this is something you can RFK, but the room for error is so small I don't know that its worth the risk.

    Outside of j.mp the only other normal I found worth even mentioning was j.lk which has the sort of reduced hurt box that can give RFK's new slim hit box fits, so as far as cross ups go, this one's pretty much fully immune to RFK, but I guess you could still try to use that upper body invincibility to make them pass through?

    As for punishes, I have yet to get even a single stomp to land on anything, seems like fei just moves too far and his hut box becomes too compact while falling. EX legs to ultra works fine as usual though.

    Final Verdict: I think RFK is a fantastic tool to have in this match up. If you're on point with your timing and reactions, fei can pretty much never chicken wing you. Unfortunately its not especially useful against j.mp, but you can't win em all. The lack of heel stomps off it is also annoying, but the fact its so easy to stuff chicken wing clean easily makes up for it, as even with out meter its a low risk low reward, which is acceptable, while with meter its a low risk high reward, and that is my favorite combination.
  • NecrotrophicNecrotrophic Isn't a communist. Joined: Posts: 5,926
    edited September 2014
    if you can just list the characters with a few bullet points where RFK is useful that would be better IMO

    Even if you include the longer info afterwards, a lot of people will be able to use this as a quick reference tool in between matches
    Northeast PA
    570 Necro
  • PaolochunPaolochun so that I / can say I'm on your side Joined: Posts: 11,381 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    You can edit the first post... or make a new thread with the Cliff Notes if you really have to.
    "The secret to strength is daily training."
    Chun-Li Street Fighter V training mode
  • DanTheTimidDanTheTimid The Timid Disciple Joined: Posts: 159
    If I ever complete all the characters, or at least reach a point where I don't see myself doing anymore, I'll try to make a cliff notes version and edit the first post with it in alphabetic order.

    RFK vs Ken

    So never actually did a full break down of Ken so thought I would.

    Vs Normals, RFK destroys all of ken's kicks, only j.lk even really has a chance of giving it trouble. Ken's punches are another story. I've beaten them all, but the hit boxes on them are much better, so its much more common to trade with them. Rarely does RFK get fully stuffed, as their hurt boxes are still pretty wide, but its much harder to beat them clean. In all cases, they're pretty hard to combo into heel stomps, but depending on how deep they were its very doable. This is one I recommend dash to stomps for, if you can catch him at all, its usually off a dash to stomps. Some times you get, 1, some times 2, some times all 3, really seems to depend on the depth of their jump in. As usually, dash to ex legs to ultra 2 seems to work in all cases though.

    Vs Tatsumaki Senpukyaku (hurricane kick). I wouldn't recommend using RFK against it on the ground, period, better punishes that aren't nearly as hard to time, but I did stuff it here and there when the stars aligned. More relevantly though, is whether or not to use it against air tatsu. In the case of normal tatsu's, the vast majority of the time I found one of two things happened, I either stuffed it, or we both wiffed, so I'd say its easily worth trying to use it against them. Ex air tatsu was a different story. In most cross up situations it stuffed me clean, or at best, traded. The only times I really stuffed it were really badly placed Tatsu's at my face such that I could hit the lower foot before the extended one got to me. looking at the hit box and hurt box on both versions of tatsu, they seem to be the same, with the main difference being that the ex versions is almost always active, while the other versions are only active for a few frames here and there, so presumably it was easier to get the hit box of RFK to his hurt box during a non-active frame and stuff it. For what its worth, if you do stuff tatsu of either kind, it seems to be really easy to get the full 3 heel stomps off it.

    Final Verdict: RFK actually isn't as good against Ken as I thought based on my online experience earlier in this thread. That is not, however, to say its bad, and the hit boxes that are going to be difficult for RFK are just as likely to be difficult for her other anti-airs to handle, as its less about the size of Ken's hurt box and more about how much deeper his hit boxes go then his hurt box, so it may still be the best anti-air in this match up. The punishes you get off RFK aren't always great, but I wouldn't call them bad either, most of the time you can get at least something. I'll probably keep using RFK in this match up as my go to anti-air, but there are definitely situations where its probably better to just block or low profile to dodge.
  • DaymanMasterOfKarateDaymanMasterOfKarate Joined: Posts: 461
    edited October 2014
    This thread is godlike.

    I live to combo into headstomp. It's probably my favorite move in any FG.

    Actually I like judging how they are jumping by seeing if they are going towards my shoulder, head or chest, it gives a nice metric instead of me trying to just eyeball it.
  • DanTheTimidDanTheTimid The Timid Disciple Joined: Posts: 159
    RFK vs Rose

    First the good news. RFK stuffs EVERY air option Rose has clean. In fact the only one that even should be a little tricky is j.lk and even that ones still well in RFKs favor. All her hut boxs are wide and much deeper then her hit boxes, making her one of the easiest characters to consistently stuff so far, if not the easiest.

    Now the bad news. Stomps off a RFK are excruciatingly hard to achieve. I don't know what it is about her hurt box on knock down but time and time again I was certain I stomped her yet my foot passed through her torso with out achieving anything. I occasionally got 1 stomp, and once even got 2, but I never got 3, and even the 1 stomp wasn't connecting from most distances with walk ups or dashes into the stomps. EX legs, however, does still connect fine, and every RFK straight to ultra 2 connected with out the need for ex legs to pull chun-li closer, so its still worth doing if you've got meter or ultra 2, but other wise...

    Final Verdict: This ones short but there's not much to say, if you want a mindless anti-air vs Rose, RFK will do the trick, but because of how hard it is to stomp her out of it, if you don't have or don't want to use your meter, one of her normals might suit you better, st.mk for instance should still be able to beat most of her jump in atacks, with less start up and while getting you a little more damage for your trouble.
  • DanTheTimidDanTheTimid The Timid Disciple Joined: Posts: 159
    edited October 2014
    RFK vs Sakura

    I'd like to start by saying thank you to whoever got the nerf to Sakuras J.hp pushed through. While the move is still quite solid, and every now and again it would cause a trade or even stuff my RFK, for the most part I've been able to stuff it cleanly. I think the trick is to hit it either before or after those 4 frames of lower body invincibility it has during the start up. I'd actually say her j.hk gave me more trouble then her j.hp, if only because of its thinner hurt box and the fact it pushes the hit box so far forward, giving it the potential to dodge the hit box of RFK. In any case, other then deep j.hk, I faired extremely well against Sakura's jump ins, including the infamous j.hp and even her ex otoshi was no match for RFK (infact it was even easier to stuff then j.hp, never hit me once in all my time spent trying to combo full stomps off it).

    On the punish side of things, she's kind of medium difficulty. Sakura seems to be another one of those characters that I find doing walk forward into stomps instead of dash into stomps works best against. Not really sure why, but I struggled to get stomps off a dash, while quite frequently I could get all 3 stomps off a walk forward into stomp. As usual there's a lot of factors that go into if you can land the stomps, mostly how deep she is when your RFK her, the deeper the better, but ex legs and ultra 2 seem to work plenty solid from all ranges so if you're worried about whiffing the stomps there's always that too, but I could definitely get 2-3 stomps relatively consistently at quite a few depths so don't be afraid to go for the stomps if you want to keep that meter.

    Final Verdict: Wow, this was way better then I thought, I expect j.hp to give RFK fits, but it really didn't. You're probably not going to use it against an otoshi cause they'll likely be doing it either in a combo or ex to punish a fireball, but if you think their punish was really late you can even RFK to punish the punish and I admit its pretty satisfying turning their wasted meter into a meterless 190 damage on them. Definitely highly recommend RFK in this match up based on my testing today.

    Special note: Dash to EX legs actually misses sakura on j.hk if she's deep enough, going under her... so... watch out for that.
  • DanTheTimidDanTheTimid The Timid Disciple Joined: Posts: 159
    RFK vs Rolento

    So Rolento's j.hk looks like it should be great against RFK, its got just the right shape (hit box/hurtbox) and angle that tends to give RFK fits... yet for reasons I can't explain RFK seems to beat this move quite well. This is exactly why I test everything in the training room instead of just eye balling things in the USF4 bible based off its frame data and hit box shots. Similarly with j.hp, RFK, when timed decently, seems to consistently win the day. Both of Rolentos light jump ins have terrible hurt box and hit boxes that RFK gobbles up, same with j.mk... but then theres j.mp. This is the one jumpin Rolento has that RFK has to worry about. With good timing I could still beat it most of the time, but its got a HUGE hit box, a decent hurt box, and perhaps most importantly, it seems to get on you fast. One second rolentos up above you where your rfk will wiff, the next the active frames of his j.mp are in your face or on top of your head wrecking your buns. Still, it can be beat, and most of the time all it results in is a trade, which you can often convert into ultra 2 if you've got it.

    Rolentos air knives are from a neutral jump only, so RFK doens't really make any sense against it, but you can deflect the knives with perfect timing if you roll like that I guess. Same with Rolento's air pogo, he can only do it from a neutral jump, but obviously he's more likely to do that when actually on top of you. If you can do the RFK early enough, you can stuff the pogo, but if you have to think about it, its already too late, so don't even try.

    As for punishes, dash to stomps seems to land 2-3 almost every time, so he's pretty easy to punish. At certain depths walk forward into stomps also works, but I think I find dash to stomps the most consistent. Dash to ex legs went under him one time when he was super deep on me, but for the most part that always hits, and he's very easy to go straight from RFK to ultra 2 off anything including trades so it would be in a rolento's best interest not to jump at you when you've got ultra 2.

    Final Verdict: The only real issue I found was against j.mp, but even that can be stuffed with good timing, so RFK seems quite good in this match up. Combine that with fairly consistent conversions to both stomps, legs, and ultra 2, and I'd say RFK is easily chun's best anti-air in this match up and proper use of it should really make Rolento think twice about jumping toward Chun-li.

    Special Note: At 5 AM tomorrow I'm leaving on a 2 week business trip that will leave me unable to play any USF4 during that two week period, so I will not be able to add anything to this thread during that time, but I won't be dead, just half way across the country in Wisconsin with only a business laptop that may or may not even lock me out from lurking this forum. It sounds like at least a few people are finding this information useful, so feel free to continue to add to the character evaluations in my stead.
  • DanTheTimidDanTheTimid The Timid Disciple Joined: Posts: 159
    RFK vs Abel

    The TLDR version of this is simply that RFK > Abel's every option. All 6 of his air normals have hit and hurt boxes that makes RFK's mouth water (if a command normal could have a mouth), while his instant over head axe kick special can actually be beaten with RFK on reaction (though you'd need really good reactions and eyes to see it was an axe kick and not something else in a live match). It will obviously work on a read as well, just don't do it too early for the obvious reasons (RFK isn't active very long). As for the actual follow ups, Abel also happens to have an especially stomp friendly falling arc, allowing me to walk forward stomp off deep jump ins and dash stomp off shallower ones and in most cases get at least 2 stomps, quite frequently all 3. From most distances you won't be able to get a stomp off a stuffed axe kick, but you can go straight into ultra 2 or dash to ex legs (and then to ultra 2) quite easily. In fact, for whatever reason, Abel seems exceptionally easy to get the full 200 damage of a RFK dash exlegs

    Final Verdict: Despite being rusty from my business trip, I had my way with Abel in the training room today. If you are late on the axe kick reaction usually you still get a trade, which is in Abel's favor damage wise, but might be worth the risk if you've got meter or ultra. Also of note, if your holding down forward in anticipation of a jump in or axe kick and he rolls instead, you're primed to punish the roll with ex bird do to down charge (though probably still better to just throw it) Regardless, RFK seems really good in this match up... albeit against things I rarely see Abels do against me.
  • DaymanMasterOfKarateDaymanMasterOfKarate Joined: Posts: 461
    I was using RFK to AA a sakura's brainless heavy jumpins, but then he started using a tatsu to change his trajectory, making him land behind me and punish RFK's long recovery :(

    I'll have to try mk to AA Sak I guess. It seems like Sak likes to jump too deeply to try to use cr.mp as an AA.
  • DanTheTimidDanTheTimid The Timid Disciple Joined: Posts: 159
    Thank you for the feed back Dayman! This shows the inherent flaw of all my information, which is that there's only so much you can get from the training room and canned set ups, to do a truly thorough investigation of RFK in each match up I'd really need a sparring partner for each character to spend some time against, and even then there's bound to be tricks he or I wouldn't think of. Anyway, as a beginner with Chun myself, none of my info is intended to be the be-all end-all for RFK in that character match up, simply a rule of thumb resource based on the one thing I can do, which is spend a couple hours in training room testing RFK against things.

    I'd be interested to see exactly what your opponent was doing, trying to use the training dummy to tatsu over Chun-li so far hasn't given me much luck. Seems like every situation where the tatsu gets over me, she was jumping so deep nearly any jump in, including an empty jump, would have gotten over me, so there was no reason to try to RFK, but maybe I"m not tatusing at the right height or something. Either way, still good to know to look out for this in the match up, so thank you again.
  • DaymanMasterOfKarateDaymanMasterOfKarate Joined: Posts: 461
    edited October 2014
    To be fair I'm a really bad player so I wouldn't take just my word for it. I could have just been flustered and making bad decisions. I did eventually stop playing because of saltiness that night lol
  • PaolochunPaolochun so that I / can say I'm on your side Joined: Posts: 11,381 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    for Sakura you need low profile moves like c. mp and c. mk. Especially if she starts doing air tatsu

    You can also try to nail her earlier with something like j. hp target combo
    "The secret to strength is daily training."
    Chun-Li Street Fighter V training mode
  • mrtom82mrtom82 Joined: Posts: 138
    Just found out, by mistake, that the rfk will best El fuerte's body splash special. First time it was a mistake and it beat it clean, tried it a few more times and it either traded or beat it clean. I have to confirm what happens if he does the air grab special but that might be another use for it. I didn't try this but I'm wondering if it'll keep you from his running sweep since your airborne. If it does then it's great in this match, if he runs and does the body splash overhead he loses and sweep wiffs.
  • ExvarisExvaris Arcade ∞ Joined: Posts: 2,879
    Pretty sure if he tries to cross up body splash it will still win, no?

    That'll require some testing, but if this is a consistent option against Fuerte that'll make the matchup a lot easier.
    «勝兵先勝而後求戰,敗兵先戰而後求勝。»
    "Victorious warriors win first, then go to war; defeated warriors go to war first, then seek to win."
    - Sun Tzu, The Art of War
    ---
  • mrtom82mrtom82 Joined: Posts: 138
    That's what caused me to do it by mistake. I was holding db and hit lk but he splashed me and it crossed up so flip kick came out and beat it clean.
  • MalvadiscoMalvadisco Marambio Joined: Posts: 2,967
    is not reliable tho
    CARACOLES
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