Project: Dedicated Smash Bros Arcade Stick - Update - Seimitsu LS-64 in action!

TheBlackHombreTheBlackHombre AestheticJoined: Posts: 1,659
edited June 2016 in Tech Talk
Update:
Intro Video


Stick in action


Update 2
JLF smash stick: added the ability to taunt (up, down, left, and right) with the 4 un-used buttons on the top of the qanba q1 case (the disabled home, turbo, select, and mode buttons)

LS-64 smash stick: had Gummo wire the joystick and buttons to a harness so I can drop everything in and out of cases with ease. I plan to have a temporary case done within a week made out of wood (I'm having my good friend help me out, he's the one playing on a Frankenstein arcade stick currently like I mentioned in an earlier post). I'd also like to have a permanent custom case finished within 2 months. Here's 2 videos of the LS-64 in action!





Full details here: (will be updated with more info soon)
Non-Analog Arcade Stick
This was the one I competed with at CEO. The gamecube padhack is housed in a qanba q1 I had already owned and I upgraded the parts to sanwa at CEO. The analog version currently lacks a case because the LS-64 is too big to mount in any existing case I have, I have to get a case custom made for it.

Top view - shows button layout. Ignore the button names on the default qanba artwork.
4 orange buttons = A, L, Y, B (from bottom to right)
4 yellow buttons = c-stick buttons (up, down, left, and right)
green button = "shift" button. (See video below)
bzB9ddi.jpg
3gGxSqI.jpg

Demonstration was done via Dolphin emulator because I don't own any nintendo consoles, however the shift button on the arcade stick works the same way on console as it does in Dolphin emulator. Whenever the shift button (green button) is NOT pressed, the joystick is 100% engaged (acting as the left analog stick). Whenever the shift button IS pressed, the joystick is x% engaged. I can I open the stick and adjust the percentage (in every direction) if I'd like but I currently have it set to 40%. I plan to raise it but need to do more testing to find what will be appropriate. The shift button is what allows me to walk/run, and do tilt attacks so it was an integral part of this build since this stick lacks an analog joystick.

If you look to the left of the stick (in the video), you can see a gamecube-PC adapter, this is needed so I can use the stick on the computer since the stick now lacks a usb cable and now natively uses a gamecube cable (since there's a gamecube PCB inside it).
wBPz0m7.jpg


Due to the gamecube PCB inside, Gummo had to dremel off a piece of the interior structure of the case so the case could close. The piece that was removed served no vital part of the structure of the case, it was just a piece that allowed the qanba q1 to be mounted with table clamps. We covered the hole with black electric tape.
T5SIg9S.jpg
z8A5vA5.jpg
maxresdefault.jpg

Now for the part that every one wants to see... the guts!
tKTY6un.jpg

I highlighted 3 unique areas of the insides (see spoiler below).
Red = screw terminals which is where the buttons and everything are connected to. This allows solderless removal/addition of buttons since currently not every button is mapped to the stick because I currently lack enough buttons on the stick.
Green = Trigger potentiometer. This is a slider that is normally attached to the gamecube controller's trigger, sliding this allows me to set whatever % I'd like for the light shield button. Currently the stick lacks a light shield button and only has a hard shield button. This will change once I get a new case/plexi with enough button holes.
Blue = 4 potentiometers that allow me to adjust how much % the "shift" button will change the joystick to. Each pot controls one direction of the joystick. You just take a small flathead screw driver and turn them, it's pretty simple. However, they will turn forever so I hooked up the arcade stick to a computer to know how much % I'm getting when I'm turning them.

I also included close-up's of the pcb.
1Qxuoa3.jpg
hUY3RnT.jpg
qsi8Ifz.jpg



Analog Arcade Stick
This is the stick that will use the LS-64. Because this one lacks a case, I can only show you the wired PCB, buttons, and joystick (LS-64).
P1NLQFl.jpg
IryW0pG.jpg
tsYeHvf.jpg


Original Post (outdated):
Intro

I know this thread/topic has come up numerous times in the past, but I have done my research into this to make sure this thread isn't anything close to a repost. The thread will be ordered into an easy to read manner, as well as important parts being bolded (if you want a tldr version) and my final question listed at the bottom.

This is a project I would love to start but there are physical limitations I don't know how to get around, which is why I'm creating this thread. In short, I want to create an arcade stick dedicated to playing Smash Bros which doesn't limit me to things normally available on a normal Gamecube controller. This means that a digital joystick is not a possibility.

Two main features I want included in the finished arcade stick are: an analog/49 way joystick and a "lock" button allowing the joystick to also be used as a c-stick.



Parts/Features

Joystick
Movement is done by an analog stick in Smash Bros (walk/run). So the joystick must be either analog or 49-way. Both sticks would serve the same purpose in what is needed to play. The picture below shows an example of how it works by throw distance (how far the stick is engaged).
Visual Illustration
mdmmUst.jpg

Different Deadzone Possibilities
Tight: Kqiq6VR.png Medium: CGxdgGx.png

Source:
http://web.archive.org/web/20120201184812/http://urebelscum.speedhost.com/49waySticks.html
Goes into great detail on how 49-way joysticks work.

I narrowed my choices down to 3 joysticks: [analog] the seimitsu ls-64 and ultramarc ultrastik 360; [49 way] happ 49-way joystick. My top choice is the seimitsu ls-64 but it apparently is extremely hard to purchase online now.

C-Stick
A feature I would really like to be included is the ability to use the joystick as the C-stick as well. Toodles has already made such a feature in his Cthulhu Multi Console PCB which is described in detail below.
Toodles wrote: »
5. Smash Bros. Advanced [hold Fierce and Roundhouse when plugging in.]..........'lock' button is for complex C-stick manuevers. It locks the analog stick where its at, and your stick will control the C-stick until you release the lock button. So, to do Peach's floating b-air, jump and hold up on your stick, hold the lock button, and move the stick to the left or right.

Source:
http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/comment/1620359/#Comment_1620359





Problems

A requirement for this arcade stick, is for it to work on a Gamecube. Every console version of Smash Bros (besides Smash 64) will be playable since the Gamecube controller works on the Wii, and Wii U as well.

Joystick
One problem I have is the incompatibility of the joysticks themselves. The Ultramarc Ultrastik 360 only works on PC, and the Happ 49-way joystick was originally used in certain arcade games:
Global VR Madden Football, Midway NBA Showtime, Williams Blitz, Blitz 99 and Gauntlet
so I'm unsure if it's possible to be used. This leaves my first choice of available joysticks left, the Seimitsu LS-64. Like I said earlier, it's extremely hard to find being sold online. So if anybody is able to find one being sold, I'd love to be given a link.

PCB
My first choice was using Toodle's Cthulhu Multi-Console PCB (since it has a Smash Bros feature allowing use of the "lock" C-stick button), but this PCB doesn't allow analog input from the joystick, nor do the majority of fighting game multi-console PCB's either. A solution to this, would be Toodle's patching the Cthulhu PCB to allow analog input; but I'm not sure if this is possible. I will be emailing him (he hasn't logged on SRK in 2 years) shortly after making this thread asking him about this.

My second choice was padhacking a Gamecube PCB but using this option wouldn't allow me make use of the "lock" C-stick button. The C-stick is an important part of playing Smash Bros, so I wouldn't want to lose this feature. It would be possible for my to add 4 extra buttons mapped to the C-stick for each cardinal (up, down, left, right) direction; but I wouldn't enjoy this layout.



Final Thoughts and Questions

Smash is essentially a 4 button game. X/Y - Jump, L/R - Shield, A - Attack, and B - Shield.
Z is simply used as a shortcut of L/R + A so it isn't needed as a button, and the Dpad (Dpad Down would be mapped for character specific uses) is used as a taunt (which serves uses in competitive play).
ex: Kirby removing a character hat after inhaling an opponent; ex: Footstool (jump on top of somebody's head) which was a mechanic added in Brawl and Smash 4
I believe a 6 button layout (I prefer Vewlix) should be used, with the hand resting "KOF" style on the main 4 buttons, and the bottom 2 buttons being "Dpad" and "Lock". See the picture below.
Ignore the red scratch, I just removed the %'s I had written for the joystick's throw distances.
I2vBm3s.png

Ignore the different button layout, this picture just shows a possibility of extra buttons used for the C-stick if the "lock" button isn't a possibility.
CxCrzK8.png

What are your guys' thoughts on how I can get an analog joystick working? And/or how can I get the C-stick "lock" button working if I padhacked a Gamecube controller?



Why Make this?
This is Tech Talk where projects like these are seen as cool! I've always wanted to play Smash Bros on a stick, but due to the limitations of an arcade stick using digital parts; it's simply not viable. I want to get around this barrier since I actually believe an arcade stick (with an analog joystick of course) would be a superior way of playing the game over the standard Gamecube controller. The joystick allows a high amount of precision over your movement, tilts/smashes, and aerials compared to a Gamecube controller. The arcade buttons also make advanced techniques extremely easy (I played PC netplay on a digital arcade stick to test) compared to the un-ergonomic Gamecube controller (your hand has to move all over the Gamecube controller compared to resting in one spot on an arcade stick).

The "wow" factor of playing Smash Bros on an arcade stick is worth it alone to me, but I also want to open up the door for other people who want to play Smash Bros on a stick. Many people have been interested in doing this project but nobody has actually done it yet, I would like to lay the foundation and give directions for other people to follow.
Post edited by TheBlackHombre on
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Comments

  • Murphy0XMurphy0X Joined: Posts: 60
    This is definitely an interesting project. I do think the lock buttom mechanic could get awkward though and makes pad-hacking a gamecube controller require some sort of extra pcb. Why not use a custom ball top with some sort of hat switch? Similar to what you would see on a flight stick:

    http://www.walmart.com/ip/Flightstick-Pro-USB-4-Button-Joystick-and-8-Way-Hat-Switch/16318439

    Obviously that might be a pain in the ass to wire through a joystick shaft, but I think it would feel more natural.

    -Murphy0X
  • FreedomGundamFreedomGundam Freedom, ikimasu! Joined: Posts: 2,390
    Casual Smash player here; I really enjoy the game, but I definitely don't play anywhere near competitively. However, I do have a few questions/concerns:

    1) I haven't tried it myself, but can you really just take an analog joystick (LS-64, Ultrastick, etc), remove the analog cubes from a padhack, solder together, and have it all work? I haven't had a look at the functionality or specs of analog joysticks (never needed to), but do they work with the simple Ground-Signal-Vcc connected by a potentiometer? Would there be any issues with voltage compatibility (I would assume that analog joysticks run on 5V, and I think GCN controllers run on 3.3V)?

    2) Wouldn't you also need an analog button for the Block button? I only ask this because I was told that part of the reason the Wii's Classic Controller Pro is less desirable when compared to the regular Classic Controller is the lack of analog R/L buttons, for variable blocking...

    3) This probably comes from me not being a real serious Smash player, but I always thought that the C-stick was more of a learning crutch to actually Smashing using the regular stick+attack; since anything you can do with the C-stick, you can do better by Smashing normally as you can hold/charge the attack. I was always under the impression that it was analogous to using the 3P/3K buttons in SF4: "They're there if you really want to use it, but learning to play properly on a 6-button stick is better"?
    Current at-home stick: Hori VLX Kuro (LS-40-01 + PS-14-K)
    Current portable stick: Mad Catz TvC (LS-40-01 + PS-14-KN)
    Current guest-sticks: custom ABS Modular stick (JLF + OBSN-30), custom Saint-stick (Happ/IL Competition)
    Cabinet: custom "Resistor" cabinet (32" LCD, X360, P1=LS-32-01 + PS-14-KN, P2=JLF + OBSC-30)
    Previous sticks: custom Happ CvS2 Double-sticks, custom Happ Hitomi-stick & Xenosaga-stick, custom Sanwa/Seimitsu Neptune-stick and Sylvia-stick, modded Mad Catz TvC, modded Mad Catz Brawlstick, modded Hori FSVX, modded Exar Exaprize

    Looking for:
    CPS2 (green or blue): Hyper SF2
    Naomi GD-ROM: SF Zero3 Upper, Puyo Puyo Fever, Triggerheart Excelica, Ikaruga
  • PinoyPrydePinoyPryde Student of SRK Tech Talk Joined: Posts: 1,175
    edited September 2014
    I had messed with something like this for lols when I had a TE kitty in a custom nitewalker. I took the route of using smash mode advanced which has functions for A,B,Shiled, Jump, Run, and C-Stick lock. My layout was a hitbox/fightstick layout in this picture:
    533856_411600408907305_1519643999_n.jpg?oh=3ff7e0747825af450c0f41975bb92082&oe=54BD03F8&__gda__=1422768267_0700b1cde08948f63e347222a2386e33

    Since the TE Kitty allows you to remap buttons on-the-go, I had made my layout like this:
    LP: A
    MP: B
    HP: Shield
    LK: Jump
    HK: Run
    Hitbox U: C-Stick Lock

    So it pretty much was the GG layout plus hitbox up, which worked fairly well but had a really bad learning curve. I didn't use an analog stick (partially since back then I didn't know there was such a thing), so using a JLF would result in any direction being sent as tilt on the GC analog stick.

    While this pretty much ignores your first statement about digital not being valid, that is how the MCC would work since they both use similar code for GC that I'm pretty sure (someone correct me if i'm wrong) was first implemented in the universal PCB that came before the Cthulu. So it may be functional, but not what you want.


    Casual Smash player here; I really enjoy the game, but I definitely don't play anywhere near competitively. However, I do have a few questions/concerns:

    1) I haven't tried it myself, but can you really just take an analog joystick (LS-64, Ultrastick, etc), remove the analog cubes from a padhack, solder together, and have it all work? I haven't had a look at the functionality or specs of analog joysticks (never needed to), but do they work with the simple Ground-Signal-Vcc connected by a potentiometer? Would there be any issues with voltage compatibility (I would assume that analog joysticks run on 5V, and I think GCN controllers run on 3.3V)?

    2) Wouldn't you also need an analog button for the Block button? I only ask this because I was told that part of the reason the Wii's Classic Controller Pro is less desirable when compared to the regular Classic Controller is the lack of analog R/L buttons, for variable blocking...

    3) This probably comes from me not being a real serious Smash player, but I always thought that the C-stick was more of a learning crutch to actually Smashing using the regular stick+attack; since anything you can do with the C-stick, you can do better by Smashing normally as you can hold/charge the attack. I was always under the impression that it was analogous to using the 3P/3K buttons in SF4: "They're there if you really want to use it, but learning to play properly on a 6-button stick is better"?

    1) Looking at this page for the Happ 49 way, it seems that the pinouts are different than a regular analog stick. So @Murphy0X‌ is right about needing another PCB to have functionality for what he's looking for. However there is also the problem of finding a suitable PCB for this, other than coding one himself.

    If anything, this joystick seems like a possible choice.

    2) Variable shielding exists only in melee, so should he be a project m player or brawl player he probably doesn't need to worry about it that much.

    3) C-Stick is definitely an execution crutch IMO, but it does allow for much more control of your character during aerial attacks and double stick DI in melee. I use my C-Stick for pretty much every aerial attack (sans N-Air of course) which helps when I can control aerial momentum when opponents try to DI away from me during combos. In Brawl this would help with RARs since your already bouncing 180 on your stick to begin with, and for characters that have a multi-hitting dair or similar attack it helps keep or temper your momentum to pick the best landing position for follow ups, or for easy SHFFLs. It is there for accessibility for smashes, but both charge and c-stick smashes both have their uses so I couldn't fully consider it similar to 3p/k, but it is close.
    I mash buttons and stomp my feet to music

    Steam ID/PSN: ArcadeStatic
  • TheBlackHombreTheBlackHombre Aesthetic Joined: Posts: 1,659
    edited September 2014
    Pnoy Pryde wrote: »
    So it pretty much was the GG layout plus hitbox up, which worked fairly well but had a really bad learning curve. I didn't use an analog stick (partially since back then I didn't know there was such a thing), so using a JLF would result in any direction being sent as tilt on the GC analog stick.

    While this pretty much ignores your first statement about digital not being valid, that is how the MCC would work since they both use similar code for GC that I'm pretty sure (someone correct me if i'm wrong) was first implemented in the universal PCB that came before the Cthulu. So it may be functional, but not what you want.


    Casual Smash player here; I really enjoy the game, but I definitely don't play anywhere near competitively. However, I do have a few questions/concerns:

    1) I haven't tried it myself, but can you really just take an analog joystick (LS-64, Ultrastick, etc), remove the analog cubes from a padhack, solder together, and have it all work? I haven't had a look at the functionality or specs of analog joysticks (never needed to), but do they work with the simple Ground-Signal-Vcc connected by a potentiometer? Would there be any issues with voltage compatibility (I would assume that analog joysticks run on 5V, and I think GCN controllers run on 3.3V)?

    2) Wouldn't you also need an analog button for the Block button? I only ask this because I was told that part of the reason the Wii's Classic Controller Pro is less desirable when compared to the regular Classic Controller is the lack of analog R/L buttons, for variable blocking...

    3) This probably comes from me not being a real serious Smash player, but I always thought that the C-stick was more of a learning crutch to actually Smashing using the regular stick+attack; since anything you can do with the C-stick, you can do better by Smashing normally as you can hold/charge the attack. I was always under the impression that it was analogous to using the 3P/3K buttons in SF4: "They're there if you really want to use it, but learning to play properly on a 6-button stick is better"?

    1) Looking at this page for the Happ 49 way, it seems that the pinouts are different than a regular analog stick. So @Murphy0X‌ is right about needing another PCB to have functionality for what he's looking for. However there is also the problem of finding a suitable PCB for this, other than coding one himself.

    If anything, this joystick seems like a possible choice.

    2) Variable shielding exists only in melee, so should he be a project m player or brawl player he probably doesn't need to worry about it that much.

    3) C-Stick is definitely an execution crutch IMO, but it does allow for much more control of your character during aerial attacks and double stick DI in melee. I use my C-Stick for pretty much every aerial attack (sans N-Air of course) which helps when I can control aerial momentum when opponents try to DI away from me during combos. In Brawl this would help with RARs since your already bouncing 180 on your stick to begin with, and for characters that have a multi-hitting dair or similar attack it helps keep or temper your momentum to pick the best landing position for follow ups, or for easy SHFFLs. It is there for accessibility for smashes, but both charge and c-stick smashes both have their uses so I couldn't fully consider it similar to 3p/k, but it is close.

    I'm just going to quote your post since it covers FreedomGundam's post as well.

    I played Project M on netplay using my arcade stick for a few days; except with a "walk" button (joystick set to always run), and obviously I don't have a "lock" button (I originally didn't have the C-stick mapped at all). Arcade stick is definitely the way to go, but needing to use a "walk" button to switch between walk/run seriously makes your mobility (both ground and air) and pokes feel very unnatural and cumbersome. I really want to start this project but an analog joystick is a must.

    1) Look at my response after the questions.

    2) Brawl and Project M removed light shielding, and I'm a Project M player so it's not a big deal to me. However, even though light shielding as a mechanic was removed; the usage of variable shielding still exists. In Project M, if you engage the L/R trigger, say, 50%; the shield will come out. However, the game recognizes the analog input, which allows you to also utilize fully engaging the L/R button to 100% essentially becoming a pseudo negative edge input. The only example I know of this being useful is doing a wavedash OoS (out of shield) which is an advanced technique.
    A wavedash is performed by pressing jump, diagonal down (the analog input matters too, 45% vs 30% will grant a different wavedash distance), and then shield. While wavedashing OoS normally requires the players to release shield (since they're already holding it) while wavedashing, using the variable shield input, allows you to wavedash OoS without ever releasing shield!
    However, due to the arcade stick having buttons very easily accessible; this technique becomes very easy to perform regardless.

    3) Like Pnoy Pride pointed out, you are able to use the C-stick to control your mobility and aerials. This is a very important tool when using a Dair (down aerial) since it allows you to Dair an opponent without fast falling (thus making you fall toward the bottom blast zone). However, you guys are under the impression that the C-stick only serves as a shortcut for doing a smash attack. The most important reason why I need access to a C-stick is to be able to Smash DI (directional influence). There are different kinds of DI, and Smash Di should not be confused with regular DI.
    Despite its near-identical name, SDI is not a subtype of directional influence, but a different mechanic altogether that is performable under the same circumstances. The major difference is that, while DI changes the trajectory a character is launched in, SDI changes a character's position before launch.
    http://www.ssbwiki.com/Smash_directional_influence

    This allows you to survive some situations where you normally would have died, and in addition to this; the C-stick takes priority over the joystick thus allowing you to regular DI as well. I play a floaty character so it's easier to KO me compared to a heavier character. When I played on netplay with my arcade stick, I was very demotivated knowing that I would have normally survived many smashes if I had access to a C-stick. (I tried mapping the C-stick as individual buttons as well but it was way too cumbersome to get used to).





    Anyway, I got a response from Toodles in my email and he said that the Cthulhu PCB's code could be upgraded to an analog input, strictly speaking, but he won't able to assist in doing that. So that rules out the Cthulhu as a possible candidate. He said I may be able to hack an open source product that fits my needs, but I don't know of any open source PCB's haha. I will get to researching and hope that I will be able to find something.

    I also started thinking about possible alternatives if I'm unable to solve some of the problems I have. If I'm unable to get a "lock" feature on the arcade stick, I may look into putting an analog stick where the HK button would normally be (as a second stick, but I really really wouldn't want to do this though). I would imagine it wouldn't feel natural. The picture below isn't anything close to what I would do, but it just shows how the analog would look.
    tumblr_lp91rr7vuM1qj6hor.jpg

    I also thought about what if I can't get an analog joystick at all and found this, but I don't think I'd do this idea since it gets rid of the joystick entirely which is a big deal for me.
    gamarcadepad530.jpg
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 35,124 mod
    How about using a second stick for the C-stick?
    You can't ask for well-thought-out changes off day 1, week 1, or mostly even month 1 play...and that's when the game is out and everyone's in the lab.
    -Mike_Z

    Everyone (should) be mindful that if there isn't a new generation after my generation, the FGC (fighting game community) will basically become extinct, so it's important to think about the future.
    -Daigo Umehara

  • TheBlackHombreTheBlackHombre Aesthetic Joined: Posts: 1,659
    d3v wrote: »
    How about using a second stick for the C-stick?
    Yeah that's what I meant in the post above, I edited it for my clarification.

    I'm not against it entirely, it's just I don't think it would feel natural. I'm not sure exactly, I guess I'll have to try it out and see :P
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde Resident tech talk double poster Joined: Posts: 4,833
    This is a project I was going to tackle this year as well.
  • FreedomGundamFreedomGundam Freedom, ikimasu! Joined: Posts: 2,390
    @TheBlackHombre‌ @Pnoy Pryde
    Thanks for the clarifications. Like I mentioned, I enjoy Smash a lot, but definitely have not dedicated to getting good at it the same way I play Street Fighter, so I'm definitely not familiar with the way people play competitively.

    ---

    I'm not sure a second stick would be suitable, because that would require you to remove your entire hand from the face buttons, and I believe that it'd be worse than lifting your thumb off of the face buttons to the C-stick when switching between the two.

    I'm very curious to see how you're going to tackle the PCB side of things; I've been toying with the idea of making an all-purpose stick of sorts (was thinking more along the lines of all-button-controller with a weird layout and included both analogs) for general purpose play (mainly action/FPS, I guess?). I think the end-goal, PCB-wise, would be very similar to what you're going for here.
    Current at-home stick: Hori VLX Kuro (LS-40-01 + PS-14-K)
    Current portable stick: Mad Catz TvC (LS-40-01 + PS-14-KN)
    Current guest-sticks: custom ABS Modular stick (JLF + OBSN-30), custom Saint-stick (Happ/IL Competition)
    Cabinet: custom "Resistor" cabinet (32" LCD, X360, P1=LS-32-01 + PS-14-KN, P2=JLF + OBSC-30)
    Previous sticks: custom Happ CvS2 Double-sticks, custom Happ Hitomi-stick & Xenosaga-stick, custom Sanwa/Seimitsu Neptune-stick and Sylvia-stick, modded Mad Catz TvC, modded Mad Catz Brawlstick, modded Hori FSVX, modded Exar Exaprize

    Looking for:
    CPS2 (green or blue): Hyper SF2
    Naomi GD-ROM: SF Zero3 Upper, Puyo Puyo Fever, Triggerheart Excelica, Ikaruga
  • DarksakulDarksakul Your lack of faith disturbs me Joined: Posts: 20,917
    Maybe a psp style analog thumb pad on the button side of the controller for your c-stick/right analogue neers.
    Remember when Nintendo had an entire series that revolved around a character who used an arm-cannon for like everything?
    Pepperidge Farm remembers.
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 35,124 mod
    Darksakul wrote: »
    Maybe a psp style analog thumb pad on the button side of the controller for your c-stick/right analogue neers.

    How about a reverse franken-pad with the right side (button and c-stick) side of a GCN pad connected to a box with a stick?
    You can't ask for well-thought-out changes off day 1, week 1, or mostly even month 1 play...and that's when the game is out and everyone's in the lab.
    -Mike_Z

    Everyone (should) be mindful that if there isn't a new generation after my generation, the FGC (fighting game community) will basically become extinct, so it's important to think about the future.
    -Daigo Umehara

  • Feargus001100Feargus001100 Joined: Posts: 989
    Any Dolphin coders on SRK???

    Perhaps... the Konamistyle Otomedius Gorgeous Ver. Hyper Stick Pro could be used???

    otomediusstick.jpg
    #MAS_Preservation_Society
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 35,124 mod
    Any Dolphin coders on SRK???

    Perhaps... the Konamistyle Otomedius Gorgeous Ver. Hyper Stick Pro could be used???

    http://videogameimports.com/images/pictures/otomediusstick.jpg
    I wouldn't mod that thing considering the price and rarity of it.

    You can't ask for well-thought-out changes off day 1, week 1, or mostly even month 1 play...and that's when the game is out and everyone's in the lab.
    -Mike_Z

    Everyone (should) be mindful that if there isn't a new generation after my generation, the FGC (fighting game community) will basically become extinct, so it's important to think about the future.
    -Daigo Umehara

  • Murphy0XMurphy0X Joined: Posts: 60
    I still think a hat switch is your best way at replicating it. Now a ball top mount is probably impractical, but you could mount it somewhere else on the stick. If you put it near your right thumb you could flick this pretty well:

    http://www.leobodnar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=210

    Only tricky part is you would need to fabricate some sort of custom mount.

    -Murphy0X
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde Resident tech talk double poster Joined: Posts: 4,833
    Could try a Z axis from a MIDI controller to use.
  • RoyalFlushTZRoyalFlushTZ *Not a Ryu cosplayer! Joined: Posts: 1,446
    For the C-stick, what about those short, nubby-shaft arcade sticks found on a Super Mario or Galaga cabinet?
    Thor/M.O.D.O.K/Viewtiful Joe
    Long live the Mighty THODOK! I do stick mods, too!
    youtube.com/RoyalFlush for TvC:UAS and T5DR vids
  • TwinnissTwinniss Joined: Posts: 785
    edited October 2014
    hmmm i want to try an ls-64 with melee

    as for the c-stick, just use buttons. seriously, think what the c-stick functions for; theres no benefit to c-stick tilts

    as for layout, i think standard 8button + 1 Button layout may work. This way you can keep 6-button fighter functionality, rather than pure smash stick
    i'd map it as

    __________________ C-Up
    Shield Jump Grab__C-Down
    A____B____C-Left C-Right

    In all honesty, should probably stick with a controller. There are a few things that could be improved on the game cube controller. With 3-d printers becoming a thing, i'd rather see a controller that uses a square gate(if possible), and lighter LR triggers
    A single Pot buster does 45% damage on Chipp with full life.

  • Missing PersonMissing Person Givin' dat ho ho ho dem eyes. Joined: Posts: 13,643
    I think you need to do something different, primarily a custom layout as well as a custom shaft on a second analog stick, shortened so that it barely protudes out of the stick and a top that resembles a mushroom head. The buttons would then curve around the top of the second analog stick. If I'm right you need four: A, B, Z, and L Putting L and Z close together makes WD as easy as a plink, maybe make the layout from left to right B-A-Z-L, so that short hop L cancels are also faster.

    The reason for a hyper short shaft would be so you could manage the C stick with your palm and leave yorur fingers open for manipulating the buttons.

    The problem would be whether you have access to a way to make the short shaft and balltop necessary.

    With this method you would need a GC controller to sacrifice and solder two analog arcade sticks to the analog stick pots, no custom MC Cthulhu firmware necessary.
    XBL: WatCnBrwnDo4U | PSN: LanierIsPlusEV | CFN: MissingPerson GGPO/FightCade: Missing Person | Steam: [TAS] Missing Person | Battle.net: MissingPersn#1365
    Twitter: JTMMissingPersn | Instagram: jtmmissingperson | Twitch: twitch.tv/missingpersonsrk
  • TheBlackHombreTheBlackHombre Aesthetic Joined: Posts: 1,659
    Sorry for the lack of updates, I was out of town for a week; and I want be able to put much time into this until about 2 weeks from now due to school/work issues taking up my time.

    I, however, have settled on using buttons for the C-stick in the button layout (which will be placed around the existing buttons); which makes me pretty confident that I will padhack a Gamecube PCB for the arcade stick. The only issue that remains, is finding a semitsu ls-64 joystick.
  • TheRealNeoGeoTheRealNeoGeo Arcadeparts Joined: Posts: 3,150
    Sorry for the lack of updates, I was out of town for a week; and I want be able to put much time into this until about 2 weeks from now due to school/work issues taking up my time.

    I, however, have settled on using buttons for the C-stick in the button layout (which will be placed around the existing buttons); which makes me pretty confident that I will padhack a Gamecube PCB for the arcade stick. The only issue that remains, is finding a semitsu ls-64 joystick.

    You mean something like this:

    LS64Akishop.jpg
  • TwinnissTwinniss Joined: Posts: 785
    do you still stock em per?
    A single Pot buster does 45% damage on Chipp with full life.

  • TheBlackHombreTheBlackHombre Aesthetic Joined: Posts: 1,659
    edited October 2014
    Twinniss wrote: »
    do you still stock em per?

    Nope, but I have a brand new one here with me. I am willing to give it away for free to make this project happen so please e-mail me a name and address and I will gladly send it for free ;).

    PM'd!

    A small update for all you guys:
    I have like 4+ GC pads available to me so I'm reading to start padhacking once I receive the ls-64 (big big shout outs to TheRealNeoGeo). I want to make a prototype stick just to see if I can get everything working, and how I want it. This includes the joystick's usability and the c-stick assigned to cardinal directions (up,down,left,right) as individual buttons.

    Some ideas for the final design:
    -Have the shield button engage both L/R triggers at the same time. This offers no advantage to gameplay at all, just allows me to quit a match (since you have to push both L and R).
    -I'm going to have 2 buttons, instead of 1, as taunt (Dpad down and left) so that you can still play characters that require a different Dpad input. (ex: Project M: Samus's left/right taunt toggle fire/ice mode, Kirby's down taunt removes inhaled hat). The button layout will still be based on a 4 button layout, but the extra 2 buttons (total of 6) will serve similarly to Street Fighter's 3P and 3K buttons. I will need to do little more research to see if they're any other characters that require this, but I believe Samus and Kirby are the only ones).
    -I'm also considering having 6 c-stick buttons instead of 4 (placed above and below the vewlix layout buttons) allowing the player to change their button layout (KOF style to Persona style) without being restricted by lack of available buttons for the c-stick. This will may/may not lower the aesthetics of the stick, but it will increase customizable functionality; so that's a big plus.

    I most likely have access to a arcade stick shell for me to make my prototype with. I want the final build to be a custom built stick, or at the very least; a stick with a custom panel and custom artwork.
    Some personal information:
    I just became certified as an ACSM health and fitness specialist yesterday, so I'm currently looking for work. I'm hoping I can land a job at the local hospital or clinic so once I'm working, this project will be going into full swing immediately. I will still make the prototype stick even if I'm not working yet, but the final build will require me to actually have money to build.

    Also it's my birthday today, I just turned 22 B)
    Cheers!

    Post edited by TheBlackHombre on
  • undamnedundamned Wake up! Time to die! Joined: Posts: 1,682
    As wonky as the original gamepads are, it's manageable (obviously). Mad props if you guys can come up with something more human-friendly.
    -ud
  • TheBlackHombreTheBlackHombre Aesthetic Joined: Posts: 1,659
    undamned wrote: »
    As wonky as the original gamepads are, it's manageable (obviously). Mad props if you guys can come up with something more human-friendly.
    -ud

    I updated my last post to show the updates I've come up with. But yeah, I really think I've come up with something much more efficient than the GC controller and something more appealing to stick players. I'll post a mock up stick pic I'm working on soon! Either tonight or tomorrow, hopefully.
  • TwinnissTwinniss Joined: Posts: 785
    Per or BlackHombre. If you can get pictures of it disassembled and how the parts are laid out, would be nice.

    I think I have a general idea of how its constructed, but just want to see what seimitsu did, and how important having GIANT pots are versus the guide plastic
    A single Pot buster does 45% damage on Chipp with full life.

  • Missing PersonMissing Person Givin' dat ho ho ho dem eyes. Joined: Posts: 13,643
    I think if this were to be a feasible project, and makes Smash really easy to play on stick, it'd be worth it for some really smart guy to reverse engineer the LS-64 and revive it.

    If it's not being produced anymore, there isn't many toes you can step on by making it happen, much like the Flash.
    XBL: WatCnBrwnDo4U | PSN: LanierIsPlusEV | CFN: MissingPerson GGPO/FightCade: Missing Person | Steam: [TAS] Missing Person | Battle.net: MissingPersn#1365
    Twitter: JTMMissingPersn | Instagram: jtmmissingperson | Twitch: twitch.tv/missingpersonsrk
  • TheRealNeoGeoTheRealNeoGeo Arcadeparts Joined: Posts: 3,150
    Twinniss wrote: »
    Per or BlackHombre. If you can get pictures of it disassembled and how the parts are laid out, would be nice.

    I think I have a general idea of how its constructed, but just want to see what seimitsu did, and how important having GIANT pots are versus the guide plastic

    I´ll try to snap a few photos before I send it out today.
  • TwinnissTwinniss Joined: Posts: 785
    edited October 2014
    Thanks Per, in some ways yeah i kinda expected, but in alot of other ways was not.

    As for reproducing, who knows, 3d printers are here so they might be able to help with at least prototyping if not straight up an adapter

    Replicating a ls-64 would require having a machine to slit the middle of a shaft for the new c-clip to go through
    A single Pot buster does 45% damage on Chipp with full life.

  • Missing PersonMissing Person Givin' dat ho ho ho dem eyes. Joined: Posts: 13,643
    Twinniss wrote: »
    Thanks Per, in some ways yeah i kinda expected, but in alot of other ways was not.

    As for reproducing, who knows, 3d printers are here so they might be able to help with at least prototyping if not straight up an adapter

    Yep, basically. It wouldn't take someone a lot of time to reproduce the housing with a 3D printer. Don't know how financially feasible that would be in the long haul, but it's possible for at least a prototype.

    If that was done, great, but it would be useless without someone willing to do the legwork to reproduce the logic that makes this tick. Whether something like Toodles' code for moving both digital and analog in the Cthulhu helps make a task like that easier or not is outside my scope of expertise. But I'm sure someone would be able to piece together the code that would make an analog joystick go.
    XBL: WatCnBrwnDo4U | PSN: LanierIsPlusEV | CFN: MissingPerson GGPO/FightCade: Missing Person | Steam: [TAS] Missing Person | Battle.net: MissingPersn#1365
    Twitter: JTMMissingPersn | Instagram: jtmmissingperson | Twitch: twitch.tv/missingpersonsrk
  • undamnedundamned Wake up! Time to die! Joined: Posts: 1,682
    So far as I know, most (easily accessable) 3D printers print with ABS plastic. That would last about 10 minutes of game time before fracturing. The moving parts in that factory stick are more likely Nylon or something with some durability.
    -ud
  • TheBlackHombreTheBlackHombre Aesthetic Joined: Posts: 1,659
    edited October 2014
    Here's a mock-up stick I made in photoshop. This doesn't reflect the final build for reasons stated below:

    I just used an existing .psd as a base for the mockup:
    1. The Madcatz TE body has physical obstructions inside it not allowing me to add more buttons above or below the original vewlix layout. I'm most likely going to use a HRAP body and then order a custom panel made from tek-innovations.
    2. I will also have a 5th C-stick button, that won't be mapped for anything; solely for the option of switching from a P4A to KOF button layout. This means the final build will have 3 c-stick buttons laid out across the top, and 2 c-stick buttons laid out across the bottom. The current mock-up image is in a P4A button layout.
    3. The final build will not have a turbo panel
    4. And I will make custom artwork for the final build, I just googled something quick to slap onto the mockup


    The primary reason for the mock-up, is for a visualization of what the final stick will resemble.
    1. 4 (30mm) white buttons = Jump, Shield, Attack, Special
    2. 4 (24mm) yellow buttons = c-stick buttons (up, down, left, right)
    3. 2 (30mm) black buttons = Taunt (Dpad down, and Dpad right)

    mHtnrJQ.png
    Post edited by TheBlackHombre on
  • TwinnissTwinniss Joined: Posts: 785
    where's grab?
    A single Pot buster does 45% damage on Chipp with full life.

  • TheBlackHombreTheBlackHombre Aesthetic Joined: Posts: 1,659
    Grab (Z) is just a shortcut of shield + attack (A). I tested this as well as other scenarios such as char specific Z aerials, and tethers. A Z button isn't needed. Smash is essentially just a 4 button game.
  • Missing PersonMissing Person Givin' dat ho ho ho dem eyes. Joined: Posts: 13,643
    I'm not sure I'm a fan of the c-button placement. Could you explain the reasoning behind it? Maybe it makes sense, I'm just not seeing it in the grand scheme.
    XBL: WatCnBrwnDo4U | PSN: LanierIsPlusEV | CFN: MissingPerson GGPO/FightCade: Missing Person | Steam: [TAS] Missing Person | Battle.net: MissingPersn#1365
    Twitter: JTMMissingPersn | Instagram: jtmmissingperson | Twitch: twitch.tv/missingpersonsrk
  • TwinnissTwinniss Joined: Posts: 785
    i guess if you can jump-cancel grab with a+z then its okay. Havn't tested but i use it alot anyways
    A single Pot buster does 45% damage on Chipp with full life.

  • FreedomGundamFreedomGundam Freedom, ikimasu! Joined: Posts: 2,390
    I'm not sure I'm a fan of the c-button placement. Could you explain the reasoning behind it? Maybe it makes sense, I'm just not seeing it in the grand scheme.
    Likewise here.

    Again, like I mentioned before, I'm nowhere near a dedicated Smash player, but my suggestion of a layout would be more like this:

    Suggestion 1:
    smash_stick_suggestion.png

    Suggestion 2:
    smash_stick_suggestion3.png


    - Full 8-button Vewlix/Astro with 2 or 3 additional buttons above the standard Jab/Strong (depending on how you prefer the C-stick buttons in the next point below)
    - Yellow buttons are C-stick directions (map them however you will)
    - White buttons in a semi Neo-Geo layout are the 4 standard buttons; this is so that your main fingers (thumb/index/middle/ring) are by default above the main Attack/Special/Jump/Guard buttons
    - Red and Blue buttons: Throw/Grab and Taunt (respectively). I'd personally still put a Throw/Grab button, mainly because I don't see the real need for 2 taunt buttons; the only taunts that I know that are useful are Kirby's (any taunt to discard a power-up) and Luigi's (down-taunt to kick someone hanging off an edge)... is there more that I'm not aware of?
    Current at-home stick: Hori VLX Kuro (LS-40-01 + PS-14-K)
    Current portable stick: Mad Catz TvC (LS-40-01 + PS-14-KN)
    Current guest-sticks: custom ABS Modular stick (JLF + OBSN-30), custom Saint-stick (Happ/IL Competition)
    Cabinet: custom "Resistor" cabinet (32" LCD, X360, P1=LS-32-01 + PS-14-KN, P2=JLF + OBSC-30)
    Previous sticks: custom Happ CvS2 Double-sticks, custom Happ Hitomi-stick & Xenosaga-stick, custom Sanwa/Seimitsu Neptune-stick and Sylvia-stick, modded Mad Catz TvC, modded Mad Catz Brawlstick, modded Hori FSVX, modded Exar Exaprize

    Looking for:
    CPS2 (green or blue): Hyper SF2
    Naomi GD-ROM: SF Zero3 Upper, Puyo Puyo Fever, Triggerheart Excelica, Ikaruga
  • TheRealNeoGeoTheRealNeoGeo Arcadeparts Joined: Posts: 3,150
    edited October 2014
    Thanks for the kind words, happy to help out!
    As some of you may have seen I may be doing a Wii board, do people want analog support for it? If possible please write what you want it to handle and I´ll see what I can do.
    Also, I thought about JLF and having a analog-kit for it, anyone did any work on that?
  • PinoyPrydePinoyPryde Student of SRK Tech Talk Joined: Posts: 1,175
    edited October 2014
    Thanks for the kind words, happy to help out!
    As some of you may have seen I may be doing a Wii board, do people want analog support for it? If possible please write what you want it to handle and I´ll see what I can do.
    Also, I thought about JLF and having a analog-kit for it, anyone did any work on that?

    I would be very much interested in the analog kit, but one question that's stuck in my mind is would the kit be a simple plug and play solution? I'm not sure how that would work on a JLF due to constraints for movement by the 4 tabs and the small platforms that the gate sits on unless you provide a kit that attaches to the actuator and mounts above the gate and beyond the tabs.

    Also i'd very much be interested in a Wii board with analog support.

    edit: @TheBlackHombre‌ do you think you could tell us what the part # or whatever is written on the pots are?
    Post edited by PinoyPryde on
    I mash buttons and stomp my feet to music

    Steam ID/PSN: ArcadeStatic
  • TheRealNeoGeoTheRealNeoGeo Arcadeparts Joined: Posts: 3,150
    Pnoy Pryde wrote: »
    Thanks for the kind words, happy to help out!
    As some of you may have seen I may be doing a Wii board, do people want analog support for it? If possible please write what you want it to handle and I´ll see what I can do.
    Also, I thought about JLF and having a analog-kit for it, anyone did any work on that?

    I would be very much interested in the analog kit, but one question that's stuck in my mind is would the kit be a simple plug and play solution? I'm not sure how that would work on a JLF due to constraints for movement by the 4 tabs and the small platforms that the gate sits on unless you provide a kit that attaches to the actuator and mounts above the gate and beyond the tabs.

    Also i'd very much be interested in a Wii board with analog support.

    edit: @TheBlackHombre‌ do you think you could tell us what the part # or whatever is written on the pots are?

    I don´t know yet how to solve it, th best would be if it was just a plug-n-play thing on the JLF, I have to look into it.
    Btw, parts number on the LS-64 should be in the pictures I took I think (see above).
  • TheBlackHombreTheBlackHombre Aesthetic Joined: Posts: 1,659
    Sorry for the lack of updates guys, I've been really busy this past week and haven't had enough time to write down everything in a gathered and structured manner. I have been researching a lot during my spare time and have a ton of bookmarks and tabs open on my phone still. I will update this thread with all the news tomorrow afternoon.

    Again sorry guys! :(
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 35,124 mod
    Thanks for the kind words, happy to help out!
    As some of you may have seen I may be doing a Wii board, do people want analog support for it? If possible please write what you want it to handle and I´ll see what I can do.
    Also, I thought about JLF and having a analog-kit for it, anyone did any work on that?
    Doesn't Paradise's "Project Magenta" have analog?
    http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/152973/paradise-arcade-joystick-project-magenta
    You can't ask for well-thought-out changes off day 1, week 1, or mostly even month 1 play...and that's when the game is out and everyone's in the lab.
    -Mike_Z

    Everyone (should) be mindful that if there isn't a new generation after my generation, the FGC (fighting game community) will basically become extinct, so it's important to think about the future.
    -Daigo Umehara

  • TheRealNeoGeoTheRealNeoGeo Arcadeparts Joined: Posts: 3,150
    d3v wrote: »

    Yeah maybe it will come out later this year hopefully. I had a different approach for a solution for the JLF but this is also very nice, love the ability to customize everything.
  • TheBlackHombreTheBlackHombre Aesthetic Joined: Posts: 1,659
    Thanks for the kind words, happy to help out!
    As some of you may have seen I may be doing a Wii board, do people want analog support for it? If possible please write what you want it to handle and I´ll see what I can do.
    Also, I thought about JLF and having a analog-kit for it, anyone did any work on that?
    This sounds awesome actually, would the analog-kit just replace the existing JLF pcb/microswitches? I'm very curious and interested in this, I would like to know more about this.
    Pnoy Pryde wrote: »
    Thanks for the kind words, happy to help out!
    As some of you may have seen I may be doing a Wii board, do people want analog support for it? If possible please write what you want it to handle and I´ll see what I can do.
    Also, I thought about JLF and having a analog-kit for it, anyone did any work on that?

    edit: @TheBlackHombre‌ do you think you could tell us what the part # or whatever is written on the pots are?
    Picture:
    http://i.imgur.com/BQz7Xv7.jpg
    Text:
    [M] (M is inside a box)
    Elkn 95
    OL
    321

    d3v wrote: »
    Thanks for the kind words, happy to help out!
    As some of you may have seen I may be doing a Wii board, do people want analog support for it? If possible please write what you want it to handle and I´ll see what I can do.
    Also, I thought about JLF and having a analog-kit for it, anyone did any work on that?
    Doesn't Paradise's "Project Magenta" have analog?
    http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/152973/paradise-arcade-joystick-project-magenta
    Yeah I've come across this as well during my research on the subject, but Project Magenta isn't actually "analog". It's analog in the sense that you can change the directional input ranges, but all input is converted into cardinal digital inputs. So at the end of the day, your joystick is still being connected to the arcade stick with a 5 pin harness.



    I have updates for you guys, but before I go into them; I want to apologize for the lack of updates in the past 2 months.
    The reason is a bit personal which is why I put it in a spoiler but I've recently graduated from my university, as well as recently finishing all of my needed certifications. I'm 22 and have been trying to start my career, so most of my time has been going to sending in applications to hospitals and clinics around the area, looking daily for new job postings, inquiring about positions in person, etc. I've been really hopeful these past months but have been becoming really really really stressed out as of lately since I still haven't found anything :/.

    In addition to my personal life, this post alone took me a few weeks of writing and editing. So again I apologize for the slow updates but I hope you guys can bear with me during this time.

    In hopes of countering any future slowness, I will post a timeline I'll try to stick to at the end of this post.

    Updates:
    Each section is rather large so I'll be breaking them up with spoilers. I have included hyperlinks into the text as well to give background information on some of the topics I talk about. I have been in contact with TerryJ (a modder from the SmashBoards forums) and Ashen (a modder from the GC-Forever forums) who have helped me with information. TerryJ most notably has he helped me a lot with information and brainstorming ideas regarding wiring.

    Button layout
    Intro
    I'm going to explain everything regarding the button layout because I believe there is a lot of confusion going on behind my thoughts on it. I want to create an optimal button layout for game play purposes that also allows customization ability. Even though the finished product will be my stick, I want to create a standard layout for others to follow. That is why I originally designed the button layout I did to accommodate two base button layouts; but I did a poor job of explaining that which is where most of the confusion came from I believe (I will explain more in the revised button layout section below).



    Background
    When stripped of shortcut and duplicate buttons/triggers; Smash Bros is essentially a 4 button fighter: attack (A), special (B), jump (X/Y), and shield (L/R). Grab (Z) is a shortcut of Attack + Shield, I have even tested this myself in many general and character specific scenarios (including Z aerials and Z tethers).

    Picture for reference:
    controllerFront.jpg

    I was originally opposed to duplicate and shortcut buttons; I wanted the 4 base buttons and that was it it. However, due to the suggestions from people in here and doing more testing; I have decided to include the Z button as well as duplicate buttons (jump and shield) into my revised layout. In addition to this, Project M (I play Project M more than I do Melee) was updated to 3.5 a few weeks ago (last updated 9 months ago) which includes a substantial update to how duplicate button inputs are registered in-game.
    One of the most requested changes, separate inputs for individual buttons, has been implemented, allowing a command to remain usable even if you are holding the same command on another button. This means that players can now wavedash with R while still holding the L-trigger (or vice versa), bringing back this comfortable input option from Melee. Other notable combinations are using two jump buttons for more flexibility on instant double-jump inputs, as well as allowing the Grab button to work even if Attack is currently held.
    http://projectmgame.com/en/news/blogpost-8-system-changes



    Before I talk about the revised button layout, I want to talk briefly about how I made decisions regarding the button layout. I originally thought of a button layout that would be efficient in "theory" and then tested that layout out in "practice" via Dolphin netplay (on arcade stick). What works out in theory doesn't always work out in practice, so I've scrapped and revised layouts until I ended with 1 "natural" feeling layout. A very important factor in the decision making was how the layout impacted the ergonomic hand position when performing advanced techniques. The whole point of making this project is to create something that is more efficient than a controller, so I don't want to make complicate gameplay any further by needing to use awkward hand positioning on the arcade stick. Something worth mentioning is that I also drew ideas from people playing with the controller in a "claw" layout.



    Revised Button Layout
    I designed the button layout with customization ability for 2 button layouts (P4A-inspired and KOF-inspired since these are the 2 I believe feel the most natural). I tried to demonstrate an explanation of this while giving a visual of the P4A-inspired layout, but I feel that is what caused the majority of the confusion.
    7HzRrDl.png

    BfMnwgO.png
    • NOTE: The reason why I have the c-stick buttons above/below the vewlix buttons; and not on the left side like FreedomGundam's suggestion, is because doing so would obstruct the space needed to mount the joystick. The LS-64 is HUGE, I need a lot of space in between the stick and buttons because of this. In addition, having 8 30mm (vewlix layout) buttons also minimizes the amount of total space I have to work with on the panel.

    I'm still open to suggestions but this is what I believe will become the final layout. It leaves 3 free buttons left over (4 if you don't map Taunt) that can be mapped to whatever. I will personally map the extra buttons like this (extra buttons shown in red):
    http://i.imgur.com/H0BTeqm.png

    Even though it may not look like it, a lot of thought and testing went behind this layout. Note: The button layout is different than what I posted in the previous post.

    Basics
    • Uses the KOF-inspired button layout (4 white buttons)
    • A (attack) and B (shield) buttons are in simple locations which make menu navigation simple
    • Shield is mapped to both L and R (offers no game play benefit but allows you to exit matches) Note: Melee players can choose to map only 1 shield button, and another shield button to serve as a "light" shield. I will elaborate in the wiring section.
    • You can throw with Street Fighter's input: attack + shield
    • You exit matches with: attack+shield + start
    • Z button is mapped (serves as shortcut for shield + attack)

    Advanced
    • Shield is set to L and R 100% 'click' input, if shield were partially inputted; wavedashing and powershielding would not be possible
    • Jump cancel grab is just a kara throw input: jump + (shield + attack), if the player doesn't want to throw with 2 buttons. He can plink jump with grab (Z button) which is located right underneath
    • DACUS is a plink of (c-stick down ~ attack) which are located right on top of each other
    • Taunt (dpad) is located underneath special so footstooling an opponent without moving your hand
    • Wavedash is a simple strum (not plink timing, closer to double tap timing) of (jump ~ shield)
    • Out of Shield options are very simple due to each finger having access to a button
    • Because the LS-64 has a long throw distance, players can play with tap-jump on without risk of mistaken jump inputs, thus making aerial combos and certain OoS options easier
    • 4 cardinal C-stick buttons allow easy pivot attacks, Smash DI, and aerials without directional input.



    I plan on releasing a video in the future, showing how the easiness of advanced techniques when performed on an arcade stick as well as how to perform them on a stick. I will be showcasing technical characters in both Melee and Project M such as Fox, Falco, Ness, Peach, etc. Something interesting worth mentioning is that a OoS wavedash input (referring to Melee because there stricter input leniency compared to Project M) becomes very similar to a just-frame input (similar to the Tekken series except with a much easier directional input), I'll elaborate on this in the future when I make a gameplay video.

    Thoughts on the joystick's circle gate
    LS64Dis.jpg
    The removed piece of plastic serves both as the joystick's gate, and the base of the joystick. I wonder if it's possible to 3D print a new base that has a square gate shape. This is mere speculation so I would have to do further research to see if this is a realistic possibility (mainly due to having to 3D model one and durability testing), however this is a minor issue since I can continue working on this even after the final stick is built. However, me wanting a square gate is just personal preference since I prefer using them on all my joysticks.

    However a square gate vs a circle gate does offer pros and cons (compared to each other) in some aspects of gameplay like angled smash attacks, wavedash angles (determines how far/short you go), etc. From me playing on Dolphon emulator with a JLF, I'd prefer using a square gate over a circle gate.

    Mounting the joystick
    I'm considering using the Universal Arcade Joystick Adapter Plate from Paradise Arcade Shop to allow me to mount the LS-64 in a traditional way. I compared the mounting plates of the LS-64 (if you can consider it a mounting plate) and the JLF, so 3 screws should mount into the LS-64 with the adapter plate. If not, I'd probably have to make something custom to mount the joystick (which is really really weird to mount).

    PCB wiring
    Background Info
    Please read this webpage to see how an analog joystick works. The Seimitsu LS-64 appears to work the same way. Each potentiometer has 3 wires each and then are bundled together into a 6 pin wire harness which can be seen in TheRealNeoGeo's post. Note: The 6 pin wire harness is red.
    http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/joystick3.htm

    Here is a diagram of the gamecube controller PCB courtesy of slagcoin.com.
    http://slagcoin.com/joystick/pcb_diagrams/gc_diagram1.jpg

    However only the PCB pinout chip is actually needed for many of the controller's inputs, which should make the wiring process easier. Wiring the PCB this way loses the rumble feature, but that's irrelevant since the rumble feature can't be incorporated into arcade sticks anyway.
    http://www.gc-forever.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=1300

    I also have all the equipment I need to start working (not counting the actual wiring, quick disconnects, and terminal strip): multimeter, soldering iron kit, dremel, and PCB.
    http://slagcoin.com/joystick/pcb_wiring.html



    L/R Triggers
    Since I'm using an arcade stick, I will be using all pushbuttons to play. I want 1 button to be a 100% 'click' input (shield), and 1 button to be a variable input (light shield) (as shown in my personal button layout).

    The triggers themselves are analog, however the Gamecube controller PCB pinout chip can be wired directly for a "click" input. This will serve as the wiring process for the shield button.

    Pictures for reference:
    First party controller (top right image)
    gc_diagram1.jpg

    Third party controller (referring to RV and LV)
    file.php?art=51&file=3

    On the back of the Gamecube controller PCB, there are 2 sliding potentiometers that attach to the L/R triggers and give anywhere between a 0-100% pressed signal. Pressing the trigger (on the controller) slides the sliding potentiometer. I believe the potentiometer resists the voltage depending on how far the sliding potential is pressed (trigger) and that is what's read in-game. When the trigger is pressed all the way, you will come into contact with a tact switch that gives a physical "click" input. Without this click input, you wouldn't be able to activate a full shield (only a light shield) which means you wouldn't be able to do some advanced techniques like power shielding and wavedashing. It is also worth mentioning that without this click input, you cannot exit matches (even with a 100% signal input on shield).

    For the shield button, I can just wire 1 pushbutton directly to the GC controller PCB pinout which gives a 'click' input.

    For people that don't play Melee, the information beyond this (within the L/R Trigger section however) is optional. Smash Bros games after Melee no longer have light shielding so both shields buttons (X and Y) can be mapped to one pushbutton (as shown in the original revised button layout).

    I'm considering using a knob potentiometer to replace the slide potentiometer (also 3 pinned) to work in conjunction with an arcade pushbutton for physical input. The knob itself can be located in the back of the stick in the "select" button's location (start and select button location on Madcatz TE). This means that I can rotate the knob and set the variable shield input (0-100%) myself. However, unless I can wire the knob (when set to 100%) to act as a 'click' input; I will not be able to exit matches.

    What are your guys' thoughts on how to accomplish this? I want to wire a knob potentiometer to work in conjunction with an arcade pushbutton for variable (shield) input; while also having a 'click' input on 100%? Not having a 'click' input was an oversight on my part as I did not discover this until I was ready to post this.

    Extra: I'd preferably like to use this knob cap attached to the knob potentiometer.



    Right Analog Stick
    The analog sticks on a GameCube controller act as voltage dividers, the operating voltage of the GC controller is roughly 3.4v. So when you turn on the GameCube with the controller plugged in the console "calibrates" the analog sticks center position every time. In voltage, the center position should end up being something around half of 3.4v (1.7v). So the centered voltage is 1.7v and then when you tilt the analog stick in either direction the potentiometer on each axis varies the voltage low to high depending on the direction you push the stick, something like this:
    analog-stick_zps53c1b769.png

    This illustration is just for reference though, and may not be exactly correct. I need to use a multimeter and figure out which directions pull "high/low".

    I will be wiring the right analog stick (c-stick) into 4 cardianal pushbuttons. So I need to figure out the voltage values on the right analog stick of the GC controller and send the "dataline" on each axis whatever voltage it needs to be fully depressed (which will be either 0v or 3.4v). So then I just connect the buttons that need 0v to ground and the buttons that need 3.4v to the 3.4v supply line on the controller.



    Left Analog Stick
    The left analog stick (LS) on the gamecube controller can be unhinged and removed from the LS potentiometers. The LS potentiometers are 6 pinned, with 3 for each axis.

    I originally thought to separate the wires (in the LS-64) from the harness and solder them directly to the LS potentiometers. But the thought occurred to me that I could solder a 6 pin receiver to the gamecube controller LS potentiometers instead, that way I can easily 'unplug' and 'plug in' the joystick for whatever reason in the future. (Imagine these harnesses connected together http://www.mo-co-so.com/v/vspfiles/photos/MCS-BIC-06P-2.jpg).

    However, the Seimitsu LS-64 is a 10v joystick. I'm not sure if I need to do any tinkering with the joystick to work when wired to the left analog stick?



    RJ45 jack (optional)
    This was very last minute on my part, but if it's possible I'd like to install a RJ45 jack and use a detachable gamecube cable with it. I still have to do more research on this but here are some links with information regarding the RJ45 cable and GC controller cable.
    RJ45
    Nintendo Gamecube Controller Protocol
    Installing Gamecube controller cable to MC Cthulhu Note: I will still be using a GC controller PCB; this page simply has information about the detachable RJ45 gamecube controller.

    Building a prototype stick
    Equipment
    I already have a multimeter, dremel (if I need it), and multimeter. The only other equipment I need are:
    • Wiring Pliers
    • Tri-wing screwdriver

    Wiring
    Outside of the buttons, pcb, and joystick; the only materials I need to wire everything are:
    • Various colored 24 AWG Insulated Wire
    • European-Style Terminal Strips
    • Non-Insulated, Single-Barrel Quick Disconnects
    • Clear 3/16" Heat-Shrink Tubing

    The point of the prototype stick is for me to make sure all the wiring is correctly done. I'll most likely just use a big tupperware as a temporary case while I do the wiring (this will be my first wiring job). I will then move everything to a more permanent (but still temporary) case like a gutted Brawlstick or something once the prototype is finished. I have big plans on what I want the final arcade stick to look like so I'll be contacting a custom case builder in the future regarding this. Stay tuned!

    Timeline
    Besides the some oversights I had until recently, I feel like I'm ready to start building a prototype stick really really soon.

    Dec - Jan: Solve remaining wiring issues
    Jan - Feb: Order parts and build a prototype stick

    I really want to start working on the prototype stick as soon as possible, I'm very very excited for this project to finally take off.
  • Politank-ZPolitank-Z Joined: Posts: 494
    Only slightly related but I've played smash with a stick using an emulator and pc. It's a lot like playing smash 4 with just the sideways wiimote. Meaning you don't have analog control of your characters, but it's serviceable. In fact, you get instant smash capability since it's not analog! It's actually pretty fun this way (and with a hitbox.) Your idea is better by miles though!
  • TheBlackHombreTheBlackHombre Aesthetic Joined: Posts: 1,659
    edited January 2015
    It's been a week since the thread was updated with my progress so I want to bump the thread and tag people's names in this thread so they get a notification and look at the thread.
    In other news, I got a job in my career field so the project should continue with no more hiccups or time delays!! The only reason why I put this in a spoiler is because it's a personal matter.
    EDIT: Can't tag people with spaces in their name? :neutral_face:

    @UNW4NT3D
    @Murphy0X
    @FreedomGundam
    @Pnoy Pryde
    @d3v
    @Moonchilde
    @Darksakul
    @Feargus001100
    @RoyalFlushTZ
    @Twinniss
    @Missing Person
    @TheRealNeoGeo
    @undamned
    @Politank-Z
    Any Dolphin coders on SRK???

    Perhaps... the Konamistyle Otomedius Gorgeous Ver. Hyper Stick Pro could be used???

    otomediusstick.jpg

    Ironic now that this stick will be coming out.
    Hori_DOA5LR_arcade_stick_touch_pad.jpg
    http://shoryuken.com/2014/12/15/hori-developing-analog-and-touchpad-enabled-dead-or-alive-arcade-stick-for-playstation-4/
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde Resident tech talk double poster Joined: Posts: 4,833
    I'm actually avoiding the thread because I want to tackle this project in the future as well, and want to look at it with "fresh" ideas in my head rather than possibly being subconsciously inspired by other work.
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