Project: Dedicated Smash Bros Arcade Stick - Update - Seimitsu LS-64 in action!

TheBlackHombreTheBlackHombre AestheticJoined: Posts: 1,667
edited June 2016 in Tech Talk
Update:
Intro Video


Stick in action


Update 2
JLF smash stick: added the ability to taunt (up, down, left, and right) with the 4 un-used buttons on the top of the qanba q1 case (the disabled home, turbo, select, and mode buttons)

LS-64 smash stick: had Gummo wire the joystick and buttons to a harness so I can drop everything in and out of cases with ease. I plan to have a temporary case done within a week made out of wood (I'm having my good friend help me out, he's the one playing on a Frankenstein arcade stick currently like I mentioned in an earlier post). I'd also like to have a permanent custom case finished within 2 months. Here's 2 videos of the LS-64 in action!





Full details here: (will be updated with more info soon)
Non-Analog Arcade Stick
This was the one I competed with at CEO. The gamecube padhack is housed in a qanba q1 I had already owned and I upgraded the parts to sanwa at CEO. The analog version currently lacks a case because the LS-64 is too big to mount in any existing case I have, I have to get a case custom made for it.

Top view - shows button layout. Ignore the button names on the default qanba artwork.
4 orange buttons = A, L, Y, B (from bottom to right)
4 yellow buttons = c-stick buttons (up, down, left, and right)
green button = "shift" button. (See video below)
bzB9ddi.jpg
3gGxSqI.jpg

Demonstration was done via Dolphin emulator because I don't own any nintendo consoles, however the shift button on the arcade stick works the same way on console as it does in Dolphin emulator. Whenever the shift button (green button) is NOT pressed, the joystick is 100% engaged (acting as the left analog stick). Whenever the shift button IS pressed, the joystick is x% engaged. I can I open the stick and adjust the percentage (in every direction) if I'd like but I currently have it set to 40%. I plan to raise it but need to do more testing to find what will be appropriate. The shift button is what allows me to walk/run, and do tilt attacks so it was an integral part of this build since this stick lacks an analog joystick.

If you look to the left of the stick (in the video), you can see a gamecube-PC adapter, this is needed so I can use the stick on the computer since the stick now lacks a usb cable and now natively uses a gamecube cable (since there's a gamecube PCB inside it).
wBPz0m7.jpg


Due to the gamecube PCB inside, Gummo had to dremel off a piece of the interior structure of the case so the case could close. The piece that was removed served no vital part of the structure of the case, it was just a piece that allowed the qanba q1 to be mounted with table clamps. We covered the hole with black electric tape.
T5SIg9S.jpg
z8A5vA5.jpg
maxresdefault.jpg

Now for the part that every one wants to see... the guts!
tKTY6un.jpg

I highlighted 3 unique areas of the insides (see spoiler below).
Red = screw terminals which is where the buttons and everything are connected to. This allows solderless removal/addition of buttons since currently not every button is mapped to the stick because I currently lack enough buttons on the stick.
Green = Trigger potentiometer. This is a slider that is normally attached to the gamecube controller's trigger, sliding this allows me to set whatever % I'd like for the light shield button. Currently the stick lacks a light shield button and only has a hard shield button. This will change once I get a new case/plexi with enough button holes.
Blue = 4 potentiometers that allow me to adjust how much % the "shift" button will change the joystick to. Each pot controls one direction of the joystick. You just take a small flathead screw driver and turn them, it's pretty simple. However, they will turn forever so I hooked up the arcade stick to a computer to know how much % I'm getting when I'm turning them.

I also included close-up's of the pcb.
1Qxuoa3.jpg
hUY3RnT.jpg
qsi8Ifz.jpg



Analog Arcade Stick
This is the stick that will use the LS-64. Because this one lacks a case, I can only show you the wired PCB, buttons, and joystick (LS-64).
P1NLQFl.jpg
IryW0pG.jpg
tsYeHvf.jpg


Original Post (outdated):
Intro

I know this thread/topic has come up numerous times in the past, but I have done my research into this to make sure this thread isn't anything close to a repost. The thread will be ordered into an easy to read manner, as well as important parts being bolded (if you want a tldr version) and my final question listed at the bottom.

This is a project I would love to start but there are physical limitations I don't know how to get around, which is why I'm creating this thread. In short, I want to create an arcade stick dedicated to playing Smash Bros which doesn't limit me to things normally available on a normal Gamecube controller. This means that a digital joystick is not a possibility.

Two main features I want included in the finished arcade stick are: an analog/49 way joystick and a "lock" button allowing the joystick to also be used as a c-stick.



Parts/Features

Joystick
Movement is done by an analog stick in Smash Bros (walk/run). So the joystick must be either analog or 49-way. Both sticks would serve the same purpose in what is needed to play. The picture below shows an example of how it works by throw distance (how far the stick is engaged).
Visual Illustration
mdmmUst.jpg

Different Deadzone Possibilities
Tight: Kqiq6VR.png Medium: CGxdgGx.png

Source:
http://web.archive.org/web/20120201184812/http://urebelscum.speedhost.com/49waySticks.html
Goes into great detail on how 49-way joysticks work.

I narrowed my choices down to 3 joysticks: [analog] the seimitsu ls-64 and ultramarc ultrastik 360; [49 way] happ 49-way joystick. My top choice is the seimitsu ls-64 but it apparently is extremely hard to purchase online now.

C-Stick
A feature I would really like to be included is the ability to use the joystick as the C-stick as well. Toodles has already made such a feature in his Cthulhu Multi Console PCB which is described in detail below.
Toodles wrote: »
5. Smash Bros. Advanced [hold Fierce and Roundhouse when plugging in.]..........'lock' button is for complex C-stick manuevers. It locks the analog stick where its at, and your stick will control the C-stick until you release the lock button. So, to do Peach's floating b-air, jump and hold up on your stick, hold the lock button, and move the stick to the left or right.

Source:
http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/comment/1620359/#Comment_1620359





Problems

A requirement for this arcade stick, is for it to work on a Gamecube. Every console version of Smash Bros (besides Smash 64) will be playable since the Gamecube controller works on the Wii, and Wii U as well.

Joystick
One problem I have is the incompatibility of the joysticks themselves. The Ultramarc Ultrastik 360 only works on PC, and the Happ 49-way joystick was originally used in certain arcade games:
Global VR Madden Football, Midway NBA Showtime, Williams Blitz, Blitz 99 and Gauntlet
so I'm unsure if it's possible to be used. This leaves my first choice of available joysticks left, the Seimitsu LS-64. Like I said earlier, it's extremely hard to find being sold online. So if anybody is able to find one being sold, I'd love to be given a link.

PCB
My first choice was using Toodle's Cthulhu Multi-Console PCB (since it has a Smash Bros feature allowing use of the "lock" C-stick button), but this PCB doesn't allow analog input from the joystick, nor do the majority of fighting game multi-console PCB's either. A solution to this, would be Toodle's patching the Cthulhu PCB to allow analog input; but I'm not sure if this is possible. I will be emailing him (he hasn't logged on SRK in 2 years) shortly after making this thread asking him about this.

My second choice was padhacking a Gamecube PCB but using this option wouldn't allow me make use of the "lock" C-stick button. The C-stick is an important part of playing Smash Bros, so I wouldn't want to lose this feature. It would be possible for my to add 4 extra buttons mapped to the C-stick for each cardinal (up, down, left, right) direction; but I wouldn't enjoy this layout.



Final Thoughts and Questions

Smash is essentially a 4 button game. X/Y - Jump, L/R - Shield, A - Attack, and B - Shield.
Z is simply used as a shortcut of L/R + A so it isn't needed as a button, and the Dpad (Dpad Down would be mapped for character specific uses) is used as a taunt (which serves uses in competitive play).
ex: Kirby removing a character hat after inhaling an opponent; ex: Footstool (jump on top of somebody's head) which was a mechanic added in Brawl and Smash 4
I believe a 6 button layout (I prefer Vewlix) should be used, with the hand resting "KOF" style on the main 4 buttons, and the bottom 2 buttons being "Dpad" and "Lock". See the picture below.
Ignore the red scratch, I just removed the %'s I had written for the joystick's throw distances.
I2vBm3s.png

Ignore the different button layout, this picture just shows a possibility of extra buttons used for the C-stick if the "lock" button isn't a possibility.
CxCrzK8.png

What are your guys' thoughts on how I can get an analog joystick working? And/or how can I get the C-stick "lock" button working if I padhacked a Gamecube controller?



Why Make this?
This is Tech Talk where projects like these are seen as cool! I've always wanted to play Smash Bros on a stick, but due to the limitations of an arcade stick using digital parts; it's simply not viable. I want to get around this barrier since I actually believe an arcade stick (with an analog joystick of course) would be a superior way of playing the game over the standard Gamecube controller. The joystick allows a high amount of precision over your movement, tilts/smashes, and aerials compared to a Gamecube controller. The arcade buttons also make advanced techniques extremely easy (I played PC netplay on a digital arcade stick to test) compared to the un-ergonomic Gamecube controller (your hand has to move all over the Gamecube controller compared to resting in one spot on an arcade stick).

The "wow" factor of playing Smash Bros on an arcade stick is worth it alone to me, but I also want to open up the door for other people who want to play Smash Bros on a stick. Many people have been interested in doing this project but nobody has actually done it yet, I would like to lay the foundation and give directions for other people to follow.
Post edited by TheBlackHombre on
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Comments

  • Murphy0XMurphy0X Joined: Posts: 63
    This is definitely an interesting project. I do think the lock buttom mechanic could get awkward though and makes pad-hacking a gamecube controller require some sort of extra pcb. Why not use a custom ball top with some sort of hat switch? Similar to what you would see on a flight stick:

    http://www.walmart.com/ip/Flightstick-Pro-USB-4-Button-Joystick-and-8-Way-Hat-Switch/16318439

    Obviously that might be a pain in the ass to wire through a joystick shaft, but I think it would feel more natural.

    -Murphy0X
  • FreedomGundamFreedomGundam Freedom, ikimasu! Joined: Posts: 2,475
    Casual Smash player here; I really enjoy the game, but I definitely don't play anywhere near competitively. However, I do have a few questions/concerns:

    1) I haven't tried it myself, but can you really just take an analog joystick (LS-64, Ultrastick, etc), remove the analog cubes from a padhack, solder together, and have it all work? I haven't had a look at the functionality or specs of analog joysticks (never needed to), but do they work with the simple Ground-Signal-Vcc connected by a potentiometer? Would there be any issues with voltage compatibility (I would assume that analog joysticks run on 5V, and I think GCN controllers run on 3.3V)?

    2) Wouldn't you also need an analog button for the Block button? I only ask this because I was told that part of the reason the Wii's Classic Controller Pro is less desirable when compared to the regular Classic Controller is the lack of analog R/L buttons, for variable blocking...

    3) This probably comes from me not being a real serious Smash player, but I always thought that the C-stick was more of a learning crutch to actually Smashing using the regular stick+attack; since anything you can do with the C-stick, you can do better by Smashing normally as you can hold/charge the attack. I was always under the impression that it was analogous to using the 3P/3K buttons in SF4: "They're there if you really want to use it, but learning to play properly on a 6-button stick is better"?
    Current at-home stick: Hori VLX Kuro (LS-40-01 + PS-14-K)
    Current portable stick: Mad Catz TvC (LS-40-01 + PS-14-KN)
    Current guest-sticks: custom ABS Modular stick (JLF + OBSN-30), custom Saint-stick (Happ/IL Competition)
    Cabinet: custom "Resistor" cabinet (32" LCD, X360, P1=LS-32-01 + PS-14-KN, P2=JLF + OBSC-30)
    Previous sticks: custom Happ CvS2 Double-sticks, custom Happ Hitomi-stick & Xenosaga-stick, custom Sanwa/Seimitsu Neptune-stick and Sylvia-stick, modded Mad Catz TvC, modded Mad Catz Brawlstick, modded Hori FSVX, modded Exar Exaprize

    Looking for:
    CPS2 (green or blue): Hyper SF2
    Naomi GD-ROM: SF Zero3 Upper, Puyo Puyo Fever, Triggerheart Excelica, Ikaruga
  • PinoyPrydePinoyPryde Rhythmic Button Mashing Joined: Posts: 1,182
    edited September 2014
    I had messed with something like this for lols when I had a TE kitty in a custom nitewalker. I took the route of using smash mode advanced which has functions for A,B,Shiled, Jump, Run, and C-Stick lock. My layout was a hitbox/fightstick layout in this picture:
    533856_411600408907305_1519643999_n.jpg?oh=3ff7e0747825af450c0f41975bb92082&oe=54BD03F8&__gda__=1422768267_0700b1cde08948f63e347222a2386e33

    Since the TE Kitty allows you to remap buttons on-the-go, I had made my layout like this:
    LP: A
    MP: B
    HP: Shield
    LK: Jump
    HK: Run
    Hitbox U: C-Stick Lock

    So it pretty much was the GG layout plus hitbox up, which worked fairly well but had a really bad learning curve. I didn't use an analog stick (partially since back then I didn't know there was such a thing), so using a JLF would result in any direction being sent as tilt on the GC analog stick.

    While this pretty much ignores your first statement about digital not being valid, that is how the MCC would work since they both use similar code for GC that I'm pretty sure (someone correct me if i'm wrong) was first implemented in the universal PCB that came before the Cthulu. So it may be functional, but not what you want.


    Casual Smash player here; I really enjoy the game, but I definitely don't play anywhere near competitively. However, I do have a few questions/concerns:

    1) I haven't tried it myself, but can you really just take an analog joystick (LS-64, Ultrastick, etc), remove the analog cubes from a padhack, solder together, and have it all work? I haven't had a look at the functionality or specs of analog joysticks (never needed to), but do they work with the simple Ground-Signal-Vcc connected by a potentiometer? Would there be any issues with voltage compatibility (I would assume that analog joysticks run on 5V, and I think GCN controllers run on 3.3V)?

    2) Wouldn't you also need an analog button for the Block button? I only ask this because I was told that part of the reason the Wii's Classic Controller Pro is less desirable when compared to the regular Classic Controller is the lack of analog R/L buttons, for variable blocking...

    3) This probably comes from me not being a real serious Smash player, but I always thought that the C-stick was more of a learning crutch to actually Smashing using the regular stick+attack; since anything you can do with the C-stick, you can do better by Smashing normally as you can hold/charge the attack. I was always under the impression that it was analogous to using the 3P/3K buttons in SF4: "They're there if you really want to use it, but learning to play properly on a 6-button stick is better"?

    1) Looking at this page for the Happ 49 way, it seems that the pinouts are different than a regular analog stick. So @Murphy0X‌ is right about needing another PCB to have functionality for what he's looking for. However there is also the problem of finding a suitable PCB for this, other than coding one himself.

    If anything, this joystick seems like a possible choice.

    2) Variable shielding exists only in melee, so should he be a project m player or brawl player he probably doesn't need to worry about it that much.

    3) C-Stick is definitely an execution crutch IMO, but it does allow for much more control of your character during aerial attacks and double stick DI in melee. I use my C-Stick for pretty much every aerial attack (sans N-Air of course) which helps when I can control aerial momentum when opponents try to DI away from me during combos. In Brawl this would help with RARs since your already bouncing 180 on your stick to begin with, and for characters that have a multi-hitting dair or similar attack it helps keep or temper your momentum to pick the best landing position for follow ups, or for easy SHFFLs. It is there for accessibility for smashes, but both charge and c-stick smashes both have their uses so I couldn't fully consider it similar to 3p/k, but it is close.
    I mash buttons and stomp my feet to music

    Steam ID/PSN: ArcadeStatic
  • TheBlackHombreTheBlackHombre Aesthetic Joined: Posts: 1,667
    edited September 2014
    Pnoy Pryde wrote: »
    So it pretty much was the GG layout plus hitbox up, which worked fairly well but had a really bad learning curve. I didn't use an analog stick (partially since back then I didn't know there was such a thing), so using a JLF would result in any direction being sent as tilt on the GC analog stick.

    While this pretty much ignores your first statement about digital not being valid, that is how the MCC would work since they both use similar code for GC that I'm pretty sure (someone correct me if i'm wrong) was first implemented in the universal PCB that came before the Cthulu. So it may be functional, but not what you want.


    Casual Smash player here; I really enjoy the game, but I definitely don't play anywhere near competitively. However, I do have a few questions/concerns:

    1) I haven't tried it myself, but can you really just take an analog joystick (LS-64, Ultrastick, etc), remove the analog cubes from a padhack, solder together, and have it all work? I haven't had a look at the functionality or specs of analog joysticks (never needed to), but do they work with the simple Ground-Signal-Vcc connected by a potentiometer? Would there be any issues with voltage compatibility (I would assume that analog joysticks run on 5V, and I think GCN controllers run on 3.3V)?

    2) Wouldn't you also need an analog button for the Block button? I only ask this because I was told that part of the reason the Wii's Classic Controller Pro is less desirable when compared to the regular Classic Controller is the lack of analog R/L buttons, for variable blocking...

    3) This probably comes from me not being a real serious Smash player, but I always thought that the C-stick was more of a learning crutch to actually Smashing using the regular stick+attack; since anything you can do with the C-stick, you can do better by Smashing normally as you can hold/charge the attack. I was always under the impression that it was analogous to using the 3P/3K buttons in SF4: "They're there if you really want to use it, but learning to play properly on a 6-button stick is better"?

    1) Looking at this page for the Happ 49 way, it seems that the pinouts are different than a regular analog stick. So @Murphy0X‌ is right about needing another PCB to have functionality for what he's looking for. However there is also the problem of finding a suitable PCB for this, other than coding one himself.

    If anything, this joystick seems like a possible choice.

    2) Variable shielding exists only in melee, so should he be a project m player or brawl player he probably doesn't need to worry about it that much.

    3) C-Stick is definitely an execution crutch IMO, but it does allow for much more control of your character during aerial attacks and double stick DI in melee. I use my C-Stick for pretty much every aerial attack (sans N-Air of course) which helps when I can control aerial momentum when opponents try to DI away from me during combos. In Brawl this would help with RARs since your already bouncing 180 on your stick to begin with, and for characters that have a multi-hitting dair or similar attack it helps keep or temper your momentum to pick the best landing position for follow ups, or for easy SHFFLs. It is there for accessibility for smashes, but both charge and c-stick smashes both have their uses so I couldn't fully consider it similar to 3p/k, but it is close.

    I'm just going to quote your post since it covers FreedomGundam's post as well.

    I played Project M on netplay using my arcade stick for a few days; except with a "walk" button (joystick set to always run), and obviously I don't have a "lock" button (I originally didn't have the C-stick mapped at all). Arcade stick is definitely the way to go, but needing to use a "walk" button to switch between walk/run seriously makes your mobility (both ground and air) and pokes feel very unnatural and cumbersome. I really want to start this project but an analog joystick is a must.

    1) Look at my response after the questions.

    2) Brawl and Project M removed light shielding, and I'm a Project M player so it's not a big deal to me. However, even though light shielding as a mechanic was removed; the usage of variable shielding still exists. In Project M, if you engage the L/R trigger, say, 50%; the shield will come out. However, the game recognizes the analog input, which allows you to also utilize fully engaging the L/R button to 100% essentially becoming a pseudo negative edge input. The only example I know of this being useful is doing a wavedash OoS (out of shield) which is an advanced technique.
    A wavedash is performed by pressing jump, diagonal down (the analog input matters too, 45% vs 30% will grant a different wavedash distance), and then shield. While wavedashing OoS normally requires the players to release shield (since they're already holding it) while wavedashing, using the variable shield input, allows you to wavedash OoS without ever releasing shield!
    However, due to the arcade stick having buttons very easily accessible; this technique becomes very easy to perform regardless.

    3) Like Pnoy Pride pointed out, you are able to use the C-stick to control your mobility and aerials. This is a very important tool when using a Dair (down aerial) since it allows you to Dair an opponent without fast falling (thus making you fall toward the bottom blast zone). However, you guys are under the impression that the C-stick only serves as a shortcut for doing a smash attack. The most important reason why I need access to a C-stick is to be able to Smash DI (directional influence). There are different kinds of DI, and Smash Di should not be confused with regular DI.
    Despite its near-identical name, SDI is not a subtype of directional influence, but a different mechanic altogether that is performable under the same circumstances. The major difference is that, while DI changes the trajectory a character is launched in, SDI changes a character's position before launch.
    http://www.ssbwiki.com/Smash_directional_influence

    This allows you to survive some situations where you normally would have died, and in addition to this; the C-stick takes priority over the joystick thus allowing you to regular DI as well. I play a floaty character so it's easier to KO me compared to a heavier character. When I played on netplay with my arcade stick, I was very demotivated knowing that I would have normally survived many smashes if I had access to a C-stick. (I tried mapping the C-stick as individual buttons as well but it was way too cumbersome to get used to).





    Anyway, I got a response from Toodles in my email and he said that the Cthulhu PCB's code could be upgraded to an analog input, strictly speaking, but he won't able to assist in doing that. So that rules out the Cthulhu as a possible candidate. He said I may be able to hack an open source product that fits my needs, but I don't know of any open source PCB's haha. I will get to researching and hope that I will be able to find something.

    I also started thinking about possible alternatives if I'm unable to solve some of the problems I have. If I'm unable to get a "lock" feature on the arcade stick, I may look into putting an analog stick where the HK button would normally be (as a second stick, but I really really wouldn't want to do this though). I would imagine it wouldn't feel natural. The picture below isn't anything close to what I would do, but it just shows how the analog would look.
    tumblr_lp91rr7vuM1qj6hor.jpg

    I also thought about what if I can't get an analog joystick at all and found this, but I don't think I'd do this idea since it gets rid of the joystick entirely which is a big deal for me.
    gamarcadepad530.jpg
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,471 mod
    How about using a second stick for the C-stick?
    You can't ask for well-thought-out changes off day 1, week 1, or mostly even month 1 play...and that's when the game is out and everyone's in the lab.
    -Mike_Z

    If there's anything we do best, it's breaking games and then making everyone suffer with all the cheapness.
    -PersiaXO
  • TheBlackHombreTheBlackHombre Aesthetic Joined: Posts: 1,667
    d3v wrote: »
    How about using a second stick for the C-stick?
    Yeah that's what I meant in the post above, I edited it for my clarification.

    I'm not against it entirely, it's just I don't think it would feel natural. I'm not sure exactly, I guess I'll have to try it out and see :P
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde Resident tech talk double poster Joined: Posts: 4,836
    This is a project I was going to tackle this year as well.
  • FreedomGundamFreedomGundam Freedom, ikimasu! Joined: Posts: 2,475
    @TheBlackHombre‌ @Pnoy Pryde
    Thanks for the clarifications. Like I mentioned, I enjoy Smash a lot, but definitely have not dedicated to getting good at it the same way I play Street Fighter, so I'm definitely not familiar with the way people play competitively.

    ---

    I'm not sure a second stick would be suitable, because that would require you to remove your entire hand from the face buttons, and I believe that it'd be worse than lifting your thumb off of the face buttons to the C-stick when switching between the two.

    I'm very curious to see how you're going to tackle the PCB side of things; I've been toying with the idea of making an all-purpose stick of sorts (was thinking more along the lines of all-button-controller with a weird layout and included both analogs) for general purpose play (mainly action/FPS, I guess?). I think the end-goal, PCB-wise, would be very similar to what you're going for here.
    Current at-home stick: Hori VLX Kuro (LS-40-01 + PS-14-K)
    Current portable stick: Mad Catz TvC (LS-40-01 + PS-14-KN)
    Current guest-sticks: custom ABS Modular stick (JLF + OBSN-30), custom Saint-stick (Happ/IL Competition)
    Cabinet: custom "Resistor" cabinet (32" LCD, X360, P1=LS-32-01 + PS-14-KN, P2=JLF + OBSC-30)
    Previous sticks: custom Happ CvS2 Double-sticks, custom Happ Hitomi-stick & Xenosaga-stick, custom Sanwa/Seimitsu Neptune-stick and Sylvia-stick, modded Mad Catz TvC, modded Mad Catz Brawlstick, modded Hori FSVX, modded Exar Exaprize

    Looking for:
    CPS2 (green or blue): Hyper SF2
    Naomi GD-ROM: SF Zero3 Upper, Puyo Puyo Fever, Triggerheart Excelica, Ikaruga
  • DarksakulDarksakul Your lack of faith disturbs me Joined: Posts: 22,909
    Maybe a psp style analog thumb pad on the button side of the controller for your c-stick/right analogue neers.
    "You must defeat Sheng Long to stand a chance."
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,471 mod
    Darksakul wrote: »
    Maybe a psp style analog thumb pad on the button side of the controller for your c-stick/right analogue neers.

    How about a reverse franken-pad with the right side (button and c-stick) side of a GCN pad connected to a box with a stick?
    You can't ask for well-thought-out changes off day 1, week 1, or mostly even month 1 play...and that's when the game is out and everyone's in the lab.
    -Mike_Z

    If there's anything we do best, it's breaking games and then making everyone suffer with all the cheapness.
    -PersiaXO
  • Feargus001100Feargus001100 Joined: Posts: 989
    Any Dolphin coders on SRK???

    Perhaps... the Konamistyle Otomedius Gorgeous Ver. Hyper Stick Pro could be used???

    otomediusstick.jpg
    #MAS_Preservation_Society
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,471 mod
    Any Dolphin coders on SRK???

    Perhaps... the Konamistyle Otomedius Gorgeous Ver. Hyper Stick Pro could be used???

    http://videogameimports.com/images/pictures/otomediusstick.jpg
    I wouldn't mod that thing considering the price and rarity of it.

    You can't ask for well-thought-out changes off day 1, week 1, or mostly even month 1 play...and that's when the game is out and everyone's in the lab.
    -Mike_Z

    If there's anything we do best, it's breaking games and then making everyone suffer with all the cheapness.
    -PersiaXO
  • Murphy0XMurphy0X Joined: Posts: 63
    I still think a hat switch is your best way at replicating it. Now a ball top mount is probably impractical, but you could mount it somewhere else on the stick. If you put it near your right thumb you could flick this pretty well:

    http://www.leobodnar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=210

    Only tricky part is you would need to fabricate some sort of custom mount.

    -Murphy0X
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde Resident tech talk double poster Joined: Posts: 4,836
    Could try a Z axis from a MIDI controller to use.
  • RoyalFlushTZRoyalFlushTZ *Not a Ryu cosplayer! Joined: Posts: 1,451
    For the C-stick, what about those short, nubby-shaft arcade sticks found on a Super Mario or Galaga cabinet?
    Thor/M.O.D.O.K/Viewtiful Joe
    Long live the Mighty THODOK! I do stick mods, too!
    youtube.com/RoyalFlush for TvC:UAS and T5DR vids
  • TwinnissTwinniss Joined: Posts: 785
    edited October 2014
    hmmm i want to try an ls-64 with melee

    as for the c-stick, just use buttons. seriously, think what the c-stick functions for; theres no benefit to c-stick tilts

    as for layout, i think standard 8button + 1 Button layout may work. This way you can keep 6-button fighter functionality, rather than pure smash stick
    i'd map it as

    __________________ C-Up
    Shield Jump Grab__C-Down
    A____B____C-Left C-Right

    In all honesty, should probably stick with a controller. There are a few things that could be improved on the game cube controller. With 3-d printers becoming a thing, i'd rather see a controller that uses a square gate(if possible), and lighter LR triggers
    A single Pot buster does 45% damage on Chipp with full life.

  • Missing PersonMissing Person Righto. Joined: Posts: 13,793
    I think you need to do something different, primarily a custom layout as well as a custom shaft on a second analog stick, shortened so that it barely protudes out of the stick and a top that resembles a mushroom head. The buttons would then curve around the top of the second analog stick. If I'm right you need four: A, B, Z, and L Putting L and Z close together makes WD as easy as a plink, maybe make the layout from left to right B-A-Z-L, so that short hop L cancels are also faster.

    The reason for a hyper short shaft would be so you could manage the C stick with your palm and leave yorur fingers open for manipulating the buttons.

    The problem would be whether you have access to a way to make the short shaft and balltop necessary.

    With this method you would need a GC controller to sacrifice and solder two analog arcade sticks to the analog stick pots, no custom MC Cthulhu firmware necessary.
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  • TheBlackHombreTheBlackHombre Aesthetic Joined: Posts: 1,667
    Sorry for the lack of updates, I was out of town for a week; and I want be able to put much time into this until about 2 weeks from now due to school/work issues taking up my time.

    I, however, have settled on using buttons for the C-stick in the button layout (which will be placed around the existing buttons); which makes me pretty confident that I will padhack a Gamecube PCB for the arcade stick. The only issue that remains, is finding a semitsu ls-64 joystick.
  • TheRealNeoGeoTheRealNeoGeo Arcadeparts Joined: Posts: 3,150
    Sorry for the lack of updates, I was out of town for a week; and I want be able to put much time into this until about 2 weeks from now due to school/work issues taking up my time.

    I, however, have settled on using buttons for the C-stick in the button layout (which will be placed around the existing buttons); which makes me pretty confident that I will padhack a Gamecube PCB for the arcade stick. The only issue that remains, is finding a semitsu ls-64 joystick.

    You mean something like this:

    LS64Akishop.jpg
  • TwinnissTwinniss Joined: Posts: 785
    do you still stock em per?
    A single Pot buster does 45% damage on Chipp with full life.

  • TheBlackHombreTheBlackHombre Aesthetic Joined: Posts: 1,667
    edited October 2014
    Twinniss wrote: »
    do you still stock em per?

    Nope, but I have a brand new one here with me. I am willing to give it away for free to make this project happen so please e-mail me a name and address and I will gladly send it for free ;).

    PM'd!

    A small update for all you guys:
    I have like 4+ GC pads available to me so I'm reading to start padhacking once I receive the ls-64 (big big shout outs to TheRealNeoGeo). I want to make a prototype stick just to see if I can get everything working, and how I want it. This includes the joystick's usability and the c-stick assigned to cardinal directions (up,down,left,right) as individual buttons.

    Some ideas for the final design:
    -Have the shield button engage both L/R triggers at the same time. This offers no advantage to gameplay at all, just allows me to quit a match (since you have to push both L and R).
    -I'm going to have 2 buttons, instead of 1, as taunt (Dpad down and left) so that you can still play characters that require a different Dpad input. (ex: Project M: Samus's left/right taunt toggle fire/ice mode, Kirby's down taunt removes inhaled hat). The button layout will still be based on a 4 button layout, but the extra 2 buttons (total of 6) will serve similarly to Street Fighter's 3P and 3K buttons. I will need to do little more research to see if they're any other characters that require this, but I believe Samus and Kirby are the only ones).
    -I'm also considering having 6 c-stick buttons instead of 4 (placed above and below the vewlix layout buttons) allowing the player to change their button layout (KOF style to Persona style) without being restricted by lack of available buttons for the c-stick. This will may/may not lower the aesthetics of the stick, but it will increase customizable functionality; so that's a big plus.

    I most likely have access to a arcade stick shell for me to make my prototype with. I want the final build to be a custom built stick, or at the very least; a stick with a custom panel and custom artwork.
    Some personal information:
    I just became certified as an ACSM health and fitness specialist yesterday, so I'm currently looking for work. I'm hoping I can land a job at the local hospital or clinic so once I'm working, this project will be going into full swing immediately. I will still make the prototype stick even if I'm not working yet, but the final build will require me to actually have money to build.

    Also it's my birthday today, I just turned 22 B)
    Cheers!

    Post edited by TheBlackHombre on
  • undamnedundamned Wake up! Time to die! Joined: Posts: 1,686
    As wonky as the original gamepads are, it's manageable (obviously). Mad props if you guys can come up with something more human-friendly.
    -ud
  • TheBlackHombreTheBlackHombre Aesthetic Joined: Posts: 1,667
    undamned wrote: »
    As wonky as the original gamepads are, it's manageable (obviously). Mad props if you guys can come up with something more human-friendly.
    -ud

    I updated my last post to show the updates I've come up with. But yeah, I really think I've come up with something much more efficient than the GC controller and something more appealing to stick players. I'll post a mock up stick pic I'm working on soon! Either tonight or tomorrow, hopefully.
  • TwinnissTwinniss Joined: Posts: 785
    Per or BlackHombre. If you can get pictures of it disassembled and how the parts are laid out, would be nice.

    I think I have a general idea of how its constructed, but just want to see what seimitsu did, and how important having GIANT pots are versus the guide plastic
    A single Pot buster does 45% damage on Chipp with full life.

  • Missing PersonMissing Person Righto. Joined: Posts: 13,793
    I think if this were to be a feasible project, and makes Smash really easy to play on stick, it'd be worth it for some really smart guy to reverse engineer the LS-64 and revive it.

    If it's not being produced anymore, there isn't many toes you can step on by making it happen, much like the Flash.
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    Twitter: JTMMissingPersn | Instagram: jtmmissingperson | Twitch: twitch.tv/missingpersonsrk
  • TheRealNeoGeoTheRealNeoGeo Arcadeparts Joined: Posts: 3,150
    Twinniss wrote: »
    Per or BlackHombre. If you can get pictures of it disassembled and how the parts are laid out, would be nice.

    I think I have a general idea of how its constructed, but just want to see what seimitsu did, and how important having GIANT pots are versus the guide plastic

    I´ll try to snap a few photos before I send it out today.
  • TwinnissTwinniss Joined: Posts: 785
    edited October 2014
    Thanks Per, in some ways yeah i kinda expected, but in alot of other ways was not.

    As for reproducing, who knows, 3d printers are here so they might be able to help with at least prototyping if not straight up an adapter

    Replicating a ls-64 would require having a machine to slit the middle of a shaft for the new c-clip to go through
    A single Pot buster does 45% damage on Chipp with full life.

  • Missing PersonMissing Person Righto. Joined: Posts: 13,793
    Twinniss wrote: »
    Thanks Per, in some ways yeah i kinda expected, but in alot of other ways was not.

    As for reproducing, who knows, 3d printers are here so they might be able to help with at least prototyping if not straight up an adapter

    Yep, basically. It wouldn't take someone a lot of time to reproduce the housing with a 3D printer. Don't know how financially feasible that would be in the long haul, but it's possible for at least a prototype.

    If that was done, great, but it would be useless without someone willing to do the legwork to reproduce the logic that makes this tick. Whether something like Toodles' code for moving both digital and analog in the Cthulhu helps make a task like that easier or not is outside my scope of expertise. But I'm sure someone would be able to piece together the code that would make an analog joystick go.
    XBL: WatCnBrwnDo4U | PSN: LanierIsPlusEV/FORpowerfulGame | CFN: MissingPerson/YddeDdeDe GGPO/FightCade: Missing Person | Steam: [TAS] Missing Person | Battle.net: MissingPersn#1365
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  • undamnedundamned Wake up! Time to die! Joined: Posts: 1,686
    So far as I know, most (easily accessable) 3D printers print with ABS plastic. That would last about 10 minutes of game time before fracturing. The moving parts in that factory stick are more likely Nylon or something with some durability.
    -ud
  • TheBlackHombreTheBlackHombre Aesthetic Joined: Posts: 1,667
    edited October 2014
    Here's a mock-up stick I made in photoshop. This doesn't reflect the final build for reasons stated below:

    I just used an existing .psd as a base for the mockup:
    1. The Madcatz TE body has physical obstructions inside it not allowing me to add more buttons above or below the original vewlix layout. I'm most likely going to use a HRAP body and then order a custom panel made from tek-innovations.
    2. I will also have a 5th C-stick button, that won't be mapped for anything; solely for the option of switching from a P4A to KOF button layout. This means the final build will have 3 c-stick buttons laid out across the top, and 2 c-stick buttons laid out across the bottom. The current mock-up image is in a P4A button layout.
    3. The final build will not have a turbo panel
    4. And I will make custom artwork for the final build, I just googled something quick to slap onto the mockup


    The primary reason for the mock-up, is for a visualization of what the final stick will resemble.
    1. 4 (30mm) white buttons = Jump, Shield, Attack, Special
    2. 4 (24mm) yellow buttons = c-stick buttons (up, down, left, right)
    3. 2 (30mm) black buttons = Taunt (Dpad down, and Dpad right)

    mHtnrJQ.png
    Post edited by TheBlackHombre on
  • TwinnissTwinniss Joined: Posts: 785
    where's grab?
    A single Pot buster does 45% damage on Chipp with full life.

  • TheBlackHombreTheBlackHombre Aesthetic Joined: Posts: 1,667
    Grab (Z) is just a shortcut of shield + attack (A). I tested this as well as other scenarios such as char specific Z aerials, and tethers. A Z button isn't needed. Smash is essentially just a 4 button game.
  • Missing PersonMissing Person Righto. Joined: Posts: 13,793
    I'm not sure I'm a fan of the c-button placement. Could you explain the reasoning behind it? Maybe it makes sense, I'm just not seeing it in the grand scheme.
    XBL: WatCnBrwnDo4U | PSN: LanierIsPlusEV/FORpowerfulGame | CFN: MissingPerson/YddeDdeDe GGPO/FightCade: Missing Person | Steam: [TAS] Missing Person | Battle.net: MissingPersn#1365
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  • TwinnissTwinniss Joined: Posts: 785
    i guess if you can jump-cancel grab with a+z then its okay. Havn't tested but i use it alot anyways
    A single Pot buster does 45% damage on Chipp with full life.

  • FreedomGundamFreedomGundam Freedom, ikimasu! Joined: Posts: 2,475
    I'm not sure I'm a fan of the c-button placement. Could you explain the reasoning behind it? Maybe it makes sense, I'm just not seeing it in the grand scheme.
    Likewise here.

    Again, like I mentioned before, I'm nowhere near a dedicated Smash player, but my suggestion of a layout would be more like this:

    Suggestion 1:
    smash_stick_suggestion.png

    Suggestion 2:
    smash_stick_suggestion3.png


    - Full 8-button Vewlix/Astro with 2 or 3 additional buttons above the standard Jab/Strong (depending on how you prefer the C-stick buttons in the next point below)
    - Yellow buttons are C-stick directions (map them however you will)
    - White buttons in a semi Neo-Geo layout are the 4 standard buttons; this is so that your main fingers (thumb/index/middle/ring) are by default above the main Attack/Special/Jump/Guard buttons
    - Red and Blue buttons: Throw/Grab and Taunt (respectively). I'd personally still put a Throw/Grab button, mainly because I don't see the real need for 2 taunt buttons; the only taunts that I know that are useful are Kirby's (any taunt to discard a power-up) and Luigi's (down-taunt to kick someone hanging off an edge)... is there more that I'm not aware of?
    Current at-home stick: Hori VLX Kuro (LS-40-01 + PS-14-K)
    Current portable stick: Mad Catz TvC (LS-40-01 + PS-14-KN)
    Current guest-sticks: custom ABS Modular stick (JLF + OBSN-30), custom Saint-stick (Happ/IL Competition)
    Cabinet: custom "Resistor" cabinet (32" LCD, X360, P1=LS-32-01 + PS-14-KN, P2=JLF + OBSC-30)
    Previous sticks: custom Happ CvS2 Double-sticks, custom Happ Hitomi-stick & Xenosaga-stick, custom Sanwa/Seimitsu Neptune-stick and Sylvia-stick, modded Mad Catz TvC, modded Mad Catz Brawlstick, modded Hori FSVX, modded Exar Exaprize

    Looking for:
    CPS2 (green or blue): Hyper SF2
    Naomi GD-ROM: SF Zero3 Upper, Puyo Puyo Fever, Triggerheart Excelica, Ikaruga
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