Project: Dedicated Smash Bros Arcade Stick - Update - Seimitsu LS-64 in action!

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Comments

  • TheBlackHombreTheBlackHombre Aesthetic Joined: Posts: 1,658
    edited December 2015
    No worries.
    I'm practicing inputs and just grinding right now, while plotting my improvements. I'm trying to get an HDMI capture card but until I do, I don't want to put out (essentially) crap quality on Smash.
    I could mod my 3DS to take a GC input (as I have a 3DS with capture card already)...but I've got other stuff to work on (not to mention retraining my brain to use the stick)

    Tips for improvement are always welcome ;-)

    I procrastinated heavily on the video but I made it, it's uploading right now. I'll link it here when it's done.
    image

    Button layouts I talk about in the video, and some information on where I would recommend placing your c-stick on your stick.
    Intuitive Layout
    zpiJghT.png

    Efficient Layout
    0r9f5fj.png

    This is something I forgot to cover in the video but since you use an actual c-stick; I would recommend using the 'efficient' layout I talked about -- but place your c-stick where my c-stick down button is. That way you still have full access to your buttons and only will remove your thumb from the buttons to use the c-stick. Useful examples of this would be when you want to do a smash attack or do jumping aerials while still controlling your direction in the air with the analog stick!

    For every one else, I do recommend watching the video as well since I talk about other things related to the stick. I also will make a follow up video in 2 weeks that should be edited nicely which shows how I play on the stick.
    Post edited by TheBlackHombre on
  • MentalMantelMentalMantel Joined: Posts: 31
    edited December 2015
    Thanks for the reply.
    Yea my layout is a little more specialized for my hands and my play vs. more generic for anybody who might want to use a stick.

    The other day I brought my stick to a buddy's house and he mentioned wanting the C stick closer to the other buttons (I have big hands so it isn't even a stretch for me. Plus as I mentioned I don't use it much so I didn't want accidental inputs.)

    I should also mention that I didn't play Smash until it came out for the 3DS and then for the Wii U. I don't see myself playing one of the older games (oh god the learning curve) so I didn't have need for a light shield button. In my current layout I have one button not hooked up to anything which could become a light shield button very easily.

    I reduced the throw slightly by cutting about a quarter inch off of the top stick. It is still more than on a digital joystick, but from what it looks like in your reply, it is pretty similar to the Seimitsu throw. I'm still waiting on a spring
  • TheBlackHombreTheBlackHombre Aesthetic Joined: Posts: 1,658
    There are some points that I didn't clarify on in the video. The video was a direct reply to yours but I expanded on some information I talked about previously in the thread. But I also talked about my general thoughts during the process of the stick and why I made the decisions that I did.

    Your joystick looks really good already performance wise. The combo of using a harder spring and lessening the throw distance will help get an arcade feel I believe. I can't speak too much about your joystick vs the one I'm using since I don't know how it's constructed (I would love to talk more and compare the process of your build vs mine, it would be really interesting and we'll probably both learn a lot).

    Now the reason I wanted the c-stick to be buttons was I felt that using the c-stick itself would minimize the ergonomics and speed at which I could play at (and be unintuitive to have 2 analog sticks + buttons on an arcade stick). Using buttons has no downside on gameplay (even taking advanced techniques into account) and has advantages compared to a physical c-stick: such as being able use the c-stick for attacks easier/quicker in combination of using other buttons compared to a controller. An example is performance instant aerials using the c-stick, it's very easy to press the jump button and then press the c-stick up button for an instant short hop (SH) > Uair for example. I personally believe converting the c-stick into buttons is a superior option vs controller and that is a benefit of playing on a stick compared to controller.

    Now if you still want to use the c-stick, I would recommend placing it under the attack button so you can use it for your thumb. The arcade stick allows you to have a "home row" hand position where your fingers have access to all buttons which the controller does not allow (unless you use a claw grip but the downside to that is its unergonomic and uncomfortable, unlike an arcade stick). Under the "efficient" layout that I made, the thumb is used independently for attacks so switching between the attack button or c-stick would be the most intuitive/ergonomic for gameplay in my opinion.

    One of the main goals I had with the button layout was to make gameplay as ergonomic and intuitive as possible. Using the home row position that the "efficient" layout offers allows all 4 necessary buttons to play access to an independent finger without having to shift your hand position. I'd have to rewatch your video (I'm on break from work at the moment so it would be later tonight) to compare where your buttons are on your layout. But I laid out the buttons the way I did so you do not have to shift your hand to play and this allows you to have faster and accurate inputs compared to any other layout (in my opinion, but I've done lots of personal tests to come up with the layout I did). I would highly recommend switching to it so you don't have to relearn your muscle memory for playing (which I have done many times and will have to do one more time when I switch to the new layout soon) as time goes on. I could imagine doing out of shield (OoS) attacks would be a bit of a chore on your layout currently (ex: jump cancel out of shield into a rising Bair). If you're not using defensive techniques like that currently, you will in the future as your skill level improves and I feel you may be limited in your accuracy and input speed if you continue to use your button layout.

    Now the light shield button doesn't really have a use if you don't play melee but if the button itself is wired as a a shield input (not using the hard press of the microswitch, only the sliding potentiometer of the gc controller trigger) it will still grant you a full shield in any smash game outside of melee (since the light shield mechanic is melee exclusive) so it's really up to you if you want to wire it or not. It won't effect gameplay otherwise but a second shield button is needed so you can at least quit matches (I currently cannot on my controller).

    That's it for now, I look forward to your thoughts. And I want to mention that the video I made wasn't meant to be disrespectful in the slightest. Upon rewatching the video, I realized the ending may have sounded disrespectful towards you when I didn't mean for it to be. The statement I said something along the lines of "I'm the only one who can give advice and know what they're talking about" wasn't directed towards you, it was a generalized statement since I was referring to the fact that I'm the only person who plays both fighting games and smash on an arcade stick compared to other people who only play smash on a controller or people who only play fighting games on an arcade stick. Just wanted to clear that up if you felt like it was toward you! :smiley:
  • RedTag14RedTag14 Joined: Posts: 107
    Wow, this is a pretty exciting project and it's great to see how @TheBlackHombre's design is evolving and what @MentalMantel has also come up with.

    I really like how Hombre's setup basically translates Smash's control scheme into the traditional Japanese arcade stick layout and feel. As a Street Fighter and air dasher player, I feel like this would be really easy and fun to transition into Smash with this sort of familiarity. I know you're busy but I'm really, really looking forward to your tech video and any tutorials or spec sheet for the community to mimic this setup. Otherwise, I'll probably just commission @Gummo if he's willing to provide this service. xD

    Mantel's design is also really sick because a fully analog stick would possibly remove any awkwardness found in a shift button, but I'm sure that's something time and practice can overcome. Mantel, how did you simply wire the Raider Pro to the GC pad and what modifications to the flightstick casing to accomplish your mod? $23 is a pretty nice price and around the range of replacing a digital arcade joystick, which can make such a mod all the more reasonable. Lastly, how were you able to detach the part of the GC PCB with the C-stick and still get it to work? I know next to nothing about PCBs and wiring besides how to solder and follow directions so any clarification would be awesome~

    Keep up the good work guys!!
  • MentalMantelMentalMantel Joined: Posts: 31
    edited December 2015
    Yea, I should have mentioned while I don't have a light shield button, every button on the GC controller has a button on my pad. I just threw in a PNP gate on the shoulders so they work with the arcade buttons. I then just used the mapping in the game to set what each button does, this lets me hit all the buttons for a reset (it is soooo much easier to hit them all together on the pad actually)

    I'm pretty new to using a pad in general since I'm really just getting into Fighting Games but I have not found myself using my thumb on the buttons at all. My thumb is really just floating the whole time (I will try to make a video or snap some pics of how I hold my hands or of me playing some. I'm thinking I'm going to get a HDMI Capture Card for myself as a gift soon) so reaching for the C stick hasn't been a problem. I'm definitely going to be taking your research, @TheBlackHombre , into account as I plan for the actual case though.

    I am shying away from converting the C stick into buttons because, while I don't see foresee it happening, I don't want to go to a tourney and have an opponent cry foul about an advantage. Even if it is completely false, just having someone raise a stink would cause headaches for a TO and for myself.

    @RedTag14 The Joystick was the "difficult"/fun part of the project for me.
    I scrapped the original casing on top of the joystick (the molded plastic giving it the flight stick look) and removed all the wiring for the buttons. I then scrapped (I'm a packrat, "scrapping" means I keep this stuff in case I can use it on another project later) the motherboard for the flightstick.

    At this point there were no wires or PCB in the Raider Pro. I used a dremel and cut away most of the base (have to be careful to not cut away the support for the pots and such. I'm working on making the mounting better, but since it is in a temporary case it is currently just hot glued on there (it has some wiggle which will be eliminated once I actually mount it). I'm working on making the mounting better.

    The way the flightstick was built, the pots had a range (the base slid around to allow adjustment) and the serial software was used to calibrate. This wouldn't work for the GC Motherboard so I had to scrap the potentiometers in the orginal joystick and find suitable replacements. I couldn't find the exact value that matched the controller (30k ohm) so I knew I would just have to slap a resistor in parallel to bring it where it needed to be.

    The tricky part was finding the correct throw length (18mm btw). I went through a couple different lengths of pots before I found it.

    After that it was simply mounting the slide pot in the Raider Pro (some more dremel work and hot glue) and wiring the pins on the pontentiometers to the correct through hole on the GC motherboard. I can take some pictures of my sloppy hot glue shenanigans if you are interested.
    For my final stick I want to actually make some injection molds (or simpler molds) which will eliminate all the hot glue nonsense.
  • B.W.B.W. Joined: Posts: 9
    So a few months ago I said I would share layouts I made. Then I forgot. Then you guys started talking in this thread again which notified me and made me remember to share.

    Anyway these are some of the layouts I came up with. http://imgur.com/a/krCQQ

    Some of them are doable on a normal stick with a shift key, and I remember testing them, but all of them are with an analog joystick in mind so when I was testing them things didn't really feel right no matter which layout I did. I kind of tested the feel for things on my computer screen as I was adjusting the button placements (I used an actual arcade stick layout for the placement of things as well). I found the jump button needed to be a thumb button, probably because I play fighting games outside of Smash on a hitbox, but it also just seemed easier to press my thumb down before pressing any of the buttons in the air, no matter where it was on the stick. I felt that the shield button should pretty much always be near the A button to make hitting both of them at the same time (for grabbing) easier, I also found it easier to have the shield button be a pointer finger button for whatever reason, that's probably just personal preference though.

    I haven't felt the layouts out in a while, but I think my favorite was probably layout 6 v.2 with 24mm buttons, most likely because the hitbox's buttons, save for the "up" button are all 24mm. Having the buttons smaller also made it easier for my fingers to dance around that kind of weird 8 button layout. I also like the top right corner being empty rather than the top left. Something weird about reaching for that corner with my ring finger.

    Anyway, blah, blah, blah, let me know what you think, and if you have questions on why any of the layouts are the way they are ask and I'll try to answer. Chances are some of the answers are going to be "because I didn't know what I was thinking with that one" though.
  • MentalMantelMentalMantel Joined: Posts: 31
    Some updates.

    I was trying to adjust the spring that was in the stick and accidentally mangled it. Luckily, the spring I was going to replace it with arrived. Unluckily, I think the new spring feels like junk and it doesn't fix the deflection problem. The spring is max force 9 lbs, so it is a little difficult to move like an actual arcade stick (using just the thumb for left movements), so I'm going to get something closer to the original that I mangled.

    As I move into my final build I'm hoping I can fix the deflection problem with some improvements to the mechanical side.

    I'll still be working on this (and trying to figure out if my locals will let me use it, since most state no modified controllers), but it will be on the back burner as I focus on SFV.
  • RedTag14RedTag14 Joined: Posts: 107
    So I'll be honest, I really want to try this out for myself because I play TvC and figure that if I'm gonna mod a stick to be dual-modded with a PS360+ and a GameCube PCB, I might as well attempt to get this sort of functionality out of it - mainly, the "shift button" for walking, tilts, etc. What's going on there?

    I see the 4 potentiometers that @TheBlackHombre mentioned are wired to each of the cardinal directions of the joystick and I'm assuming the shift button unpressed leaves the pots unactivated and then activated when pressed. How is that wired? I also see some chips on the breadboard with the pots (logic gates I'm assuming) and then some resistors on the breadboard with the screw terminals for the buttons. Would just like an explanation to help me and possibly others mimic this setup for our own testing as it seems somewhat promising. Any chance I can get @Gummo, @Darksakul, and/or others to chime in? Lastly, any chance the GC PCB can be cut to a smaller size to save space inside the case (http://www.gc-forever.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=1300)?
  • DarksakulDarksakul Your lack of faith disturbs me Joined: Posts: 20,282
    To avoid confusing how an analog joysticks compared to a digital joystick I going to go on this side tangent

    Actually there only 2 potentiometers in an analog joystick, one for the X axis and one for the Y Axis.

    There is no depression of pots, a potentiometer isn't a switch. It Turns, common places to find a potentiometer is in a older TV or Radio volume knob, a light dimmer knob. Think off a potentiometer as a big adjustable resistor. A Switch operates on the concept of ON and OFF (and only On and OFF), only 2 states, which is also the basic concept of digital electronics Ones and Zeros (One = On, Zero = Off).

    Analog is different, analog works on the concept of different voltage or amperage levels and is a continuous signal, analog operates like a wave.
    Its why Analog was the method of choice for older era TV, Radios, video and audio recordings ect, as it was easy to modulate these continuous signals to sound coming out of speakers or how a image is drawn on a cathode ray tube (CRT) screen.

    Like still to this day the last part of our audio equipment before the wiring goes to a speaker the circuity is analog, the constant modulation of voltage levels acts like a wave which effects how much the magnets and coils move in a speaker which create the sound waves we hear.


    What TheBlackHombre did was he pad hacked a Game Cube controller for stick use, as he was using a Sanwa JLF for his Left analog he had to change the digital output of the JLF to analog input the GC PCB would understand. The Sanwa JLF is digital, each cardinal direction is a ON or OFF state. The 4 potentiometers you see are so BlackHombre can adjust or dial-in the strength of how far the push is in any direction. So hitting up on the JLF is not a hard full push on the analog stick stick data as completely up on the X Axis. So dialing the Pots to 50% would equal a 50% push on a left analog stick. I think TheBlackHombre set his pots for being at 40%. The Shift button is wired up to allow for a full press in any direction,regardless of what the pots are set to. He did a similar set up for the C-stick and broke it down to 4 buttons.

    There is a introductory guide on how to remove analog joysticks and neutralize them. It goes on the same method can be used to turn variable resistors into on-off switches.
    http://www.slagcoin.com/joystick/pcb_wiring.html#PCB_COMPONENTS_MODIFICATION_AND_REMOVAL


    As for the actual logic on the board, I am a little foggy about the details as I don't even know what chips are used. When it came to my own projects and analog to digital conversion I took the easy ways out and just avoided the analog inputs. Like both of my Virtual-On arcade sticks are wired up as digital joysticks taking on digital inputs and setting the game to run off the D-pad and 4 face buttons instead of the analog thumb sticks.

    I am sure Gummo or TheBlackHombre can help you more in this regard.
    Never pay double the retail price
  • GummoGummo Can We Mod It? Yes, We Can! Joined: Posts: 5,472
    The shift button is actually functioning the other way. When the joystick is moved it registers 100% of that axis. If the shift button is held then it uses the % setting of the pot.

    The chips I used were 4066 switching chips and hex inverters.
    Website: http://www.gummods.com
    Youtube Channel: http://www.youtube.com/gummowned
    Twitter: @Gummowned
    Will be providing my modding services at EVO @ the Madcatz booth!
  • DarksakulDarksakul Your lack of faith disturbs me Joined: Posts: 20,282
    Gummo wrote: »
    The shift button is actually functioning the other way. When the joystick is moved it registers 100% of that axis. If the shift button is held then it uses the % setting of the pot.

    The chips I used were 4066 switching chips and hex inverters.
    So I got it backwards, opps.

    I could never remember what chips was used, I tried searching a guide on SRK and failed to find anything
    Never pay double the retail price
  • GummoGummo Can We Mod It? Yes, We Can! Joined: Posts: 5,472
    It's no big deal. I just wanted to clarify the details since I was the one who did the mod.

    I don't think I mentioned before the chips used nor why they were used. I meant to post the schematic I drew out , but found out I didn't complete it when I was finished with the mod.
    Website: http://www.gummods.com
    Youtube Channel: http://www.youtube.com/gummowned
    Twitter: @Gummowned
    Will be providing my modding services at EVO @ the Madcatz booth!
  • RedTag14RedTag14 Joined: Posts: 107
    edited January 2016
    Darksakul wrote: »
    To avoid confusing how an analog joysticks compared to a digital joystick I going to go on this side tangent

    Thanks a ton @Darksakul. This was a solid run down of what I needed to have clarified. I learned a little bit of this stuff in a intro to hardware class designed for IT students and your explanation is a thousand times better than anything my professor said. lol
    Gummo wrote: »
    It's no big deal. I just wanted to clarify the details since I was the one who did the mod.

    I don't think I mentioned before the chips used nor why they were used. I meant to post the schematic I drew out , but found out I didn't complete it when I was finished with the mod.

    Thanks for clarifying @Gummo! A schematic would be really, really, really cool as I know I could learn quite a bit from this. I'm genuinely interested in getting into modding in my spare time when I graduate. I understand you're a busy guy though so no worries if a schematic is a no go. It would help me attempt to do this mod myself, but in any case, I've sent you an email if you're able to do this mod again for whatever price you fancy. I'm a visual and kinesthetic learner so getting a point blank look at the wiring, chips, breadboard(s), etc. would be an awesome experience. :3 Please let me know!
  • MentalMantelMentalMantel Joined: Posts: 31
    edited February 2016
    Someone mentioned cutting down the GC controller board. here is this thread. You can cut it down pretty small. Just slightly larger than the main chip from the looks of things (Especially as a stick will not need the rumble)
    http://forums.modretro.com/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=8517

    edit: Clarification
  • RedTag14RedTag14 Joined: Posts: 107
    Someone mentioned cutting down the GC controller board. here is this thread. You can cut it down pretty small. Just slightly larger than the main chip from the looks of things (Especially as a stick will not need the rumble)
    http://forums.modretro.com/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=8517

    edit: Clarification

    Good to know! Curious but would you be able to share how you wired your flight stick to the GC board, @MentalMantel?
  • TheBlackHombreTheBlackHombre Aesthetic Joined: Posts: 1,658
    Side tangent here. I was supposed to have my video done awhile back, but my friend that "said" he'll help me out pretty much went back on his word. So I'll be updating the video very very slowly whenever I drive 60ish miles back to my old town to visit family/friends and have my good friend edit/record video whenever I'm in the area which isn't often. :/
  • MentalMantelMentalMantel Joined: Posts: 31
    edited February 2016
    @RedTag14 It is actually pretty simple. I wired the three outputs of a slide potentiometer to the three inputs on the GC board.
    I just looked up the layout of the board (I think on Slagcoin is where I eventually found this...but I'm not sure, I had to use some google fu). The only slightly tricky part was matching the resistance to the original pots of the controller.
    Since I couldn't find exact resistors that matched I just put a resistor in parallel to the pot. Not really tricky if you know a bit about electronics or you can google a parallel resistance calculator too and it will figure out what you need. You'll have to play a bit to find the center.

    Just do that for both axis and the slide pots will work. Mount them in the housing for the joystick and voila.

    People have been asking on the youtubes for a little more in depth look in how I put it together, which I am in the process of doing since I am rebuilding the joystick to bring it more in line with standard arcade sticks

    I recently got my HDMI Capture Card in so I can start making better videos now
    Post edited by MentalMantel on
  • RedTag14RedTag14 Joined: Posts: 107
    edited February 2016
    Really cool info. Thanks @MentalMantel! Are the slide potentiometers a part of the analog joystick? I know there are some sliders for the GC triggers. I might have other questions about the resistors but I'll do my research before sending you a PM. No pressure on the new build or video responses. Take your time! I'm sure we're all just looking forward to what cool stuff can come about. (:
    Side tangent here. I was supposed to have my video done awhile back, but my friend that "said" he'll help me out pretty much went back on his word. So I'll be updating the video very very slowly whenever I drive 60ish miles back to my old town to visit family/friends and have my good friend edit/record video whenever I'm in the area which isn't often. :/

    Same goes for you bud. No worries (at least for me). Take it easy and looking forward to the vid when it eventually comes out~
  • MentalMantelMentalMantel Joined: Posts: 31
    @RedTag14 No the slide pots were not a part of the joystick. I measured the throw and got a slide pot that was pretty close to it (18mm in my case-the actual throw was closer to 20 but I couldn't find a potentiometer with that length)
  • TheBlackHombreTheBlackHombre Aesthetic Joined: Posts: 1,658
    I haven't posted here lately but I have a very big surprise for you guys coming soon. I may have my analog stick playable soon - using a 3D printed case.

    My friend is currently in the process (and almost done) making a Frankenstein smash stick which is half controller/half stick, I can post the finished result here if you guys are interested.

    I'm currently at a FL regional: Tampa Never Sleeps and I have footage of me playing my pool match against mew2king and there are pictures I'll repost on here that were taken by the photography staff of me and the stick in action.

    I'll try to post the Tampa Never Sleep stuff at the end of the weekend (or whenever the pictures of up) and I'll keep you guys updated with the progress of my analog stick as well.

    I may also end up modifying my current jlf stick as well by getting a plexiglass cut since I'm happy with my final (and currently not being used) button layout.
  • TheBlackHombreTheBlackHombre Aesthetic Joined: Posts: 1,658
    edited March 2016
    Update onto my last post.

    My friend completed his Frankenstein stick and the button layout is the tits man, it feels so good. Smash bros melee is his main game and he's been showing me a lot of cool stuff that the stick gives advantages of gameplay wise that I wasn't even aware of. Just gameplay that requires simple and quick inputs to perform like a instant ledge drop rising aerial are hella simpler because the c-stick takes override of the analog stick so c-stick buttons guarantee precise and accurate inputs. Tapping the c-stick buttons will guarantee you never accidently drift away from the ledge or fast fall to your death (since you could accidently hold the c-stick analog stick too long) and you can be at the perfect range you want to be to the ledge while controlling your air mobility since you never have to let go of the left analog stick! The c-stick buttons are housed right outside the ergonomic layout which makes all the tech skill needed a breeze to perform these inputs.

    I asked him if I could post pictures but he declined temporarily because it's housed in a cardboard/duct tape box and he wants to 3d print his case and assemble before he takes pictures. He also learned how to get through all the headaches that come with the wiring process including how to get the c-stick buttons to work which was harder than my initial research said.

    We also learned something new in how the game handles input for a specific instruction (nothing that matters in-game though). In order to quit a match, you must hold 2 'hard press' shield inputs - which means the hard click would need to be wired to the stick as well.

    Currently his Frankenstein stick is half a gamecube controller on the left, and an arcade stick (buttons) on the right. The left trigger on the gamecube controller still works like normal, and he had a hard shield and light shield button on the right - so he 'technically' has 3 shield buttons: the left trigger, hard shield button, and light shield button.

    In order to have access to quit matches, I'll just have a hard press shield button next to my start button (which would be embedded on the side of the stick similar to the start location of the madcatz TE sticks) so I can quit matches with ease. Location of the shield buttons would be: hard press button next to start located on the side of the stick, hard press button on face of stick, soft shield button on face of stick.



    I never found pictures of the Tampa Never Sleeps event and I honestly just forgot to upload the m2k video. You can't even see the stick in the video anyway so it's whatever, I'll upload it later tonight after work. Since sfv came out, most of my focus has been on that. I went to Final Round and didn't even bother to bring my smash stick with me. I plan to 3d print a case for my analog LS-32 stick in the near future but that will most likely happen in a few months. I have future plans as well after that but I'll keep it as a surprise for now since it's something I rather keep private for now.

    Edit: image
    Post edited by TheBlackHombre on
  • TheBlackHombreTheBlackHombre Aesthetic Joined: Posts: 1,658
    edited May 2016
    Me vs Plup in Melee (top 8 at Evo)
    image

    Me vs random player in Smash 4
    image

    Me competing at CEO Prologue yesterday. Not much in terms of updates lately mainly due to the fact that I've lost a lot of interest in smash bros. After Project M was dropped in terms of support from tournaments, my amount of time playing smash has dropped significantly - and I think my level of play in these games show that. I don't enjoy melee or smash 4 like I enjoy PM. So I haven't been driven to be as active in my progress with future sticks.

    However, I have a lot of things finalized in what I plan to do with my future sticks. I learned a lot more through my friend going through the build process and want to have something tangible in a few months (while also being the final build). I'm most likely going to get another PCB wired to make the final stick with the revisions I have in mind.

    Through a lot of testing, I've finally come up with something that is objectively better in every way to a standard gamecube controller - and there's only 1 advanced technique that isn't possible but it only works for 1 character and is rarely used to begin with anyway so it doesn't matter. Some of the things possible on the final design are things that were previously thought to be TAS level execution, but can be done easily due to access to arcade stick buttons.
  • RedTag14RedTag14 Joined: Posts: 107
    edited June 2016
    @TheBlackHombre Glad to know you're confident in the work you've done so far. Thanks for sharing the vids! I'm definitely interested in your updated layout. Can you possibly reveal it? I'm looking to order a custom top panel for a Round 1 TE to accommodate this layout. Finally graduating college so I'll have more time for hobbies and leisure.

    It's too bad that PM is mostly tossed to the side. Definitely a solid and fun version of Smash imo.
  • TheBlackHombreTheBlackHombre Aesthetic Joined: Posts: 1,658
    edited June 2016
    Got a some big updates for you guys.

    I went to CEO again this year and got in touch with Gummo again and made more progress with both sticks.

    JLF smash stick: added the ability to taunt (up, down, left, and right) with the 4 un-used buttons on the top of the qanba q1 case (the disabled home, turbo, select, and mode buttons)

    LS-64 smash stick: had Gummo wire the joystick and buttons to a harness so I can drop everything in and out of cases with ease. I plan to have a temporary case done within a week made out of wood (I'm having my good friend help me out, he's the one playing on a Frankenstein arcade stick currently like I mentioned in an earlier post). I'd also like to have a permanent custom case finished within 2 months. Here's 2 videos of the LS-64 in action!

    image

    image


    I also plan to make the final build of both sticks as well. There's specifications that I'm going to re-do on both pcbs, due to realizing that some features were and weren't possible on the current pcbs.

    Mainly for the realization that I can have 4 shield buttons, not just 2. Each trigger (L and R) can be assigned 2 individual buttons: light and hard shield. I plan to have L trigger set to both light and hard shield for the buttons on the face of the stick, and have the R trigger set to hard shield next to the start button behind the stick. This will allow me to press BOTH hard shield inputs allowing me to quit matches, while still having access to a hard and light shield for gameplay purposes.

    I may play with the idea of having a second light shield button for a really specific option select in the game that uses the light shield button to OS an l-cancel every time. However, the current build can do this already, it's just having to OS light shield with your pinky is a bit uncomfortable but I'll mess around with it and see what I come up with.


    Edit:
    Tried to make a super super temporary case out of a big Tupperware I bought but I couldn't even get the buttons to fit in it because I was making holes with a knife. I'm going to borrow my dad's dremel either this weekend or the following weekend (1.5 hour drive) so I'll have a video of me playing on it soon. I'm also going to drop the temporary wooden case idea as well because after doing research on the cost of everything, it's nearly half the amount I'd pay for a final professional case. I'm just going to get my measurements ready and place the order to have it made asap. Hopefully 2-3 month wait before I have it.

    Now that this stick is close to being done, I'm super excited to get it finished. Expect consistent updates from me from now on, I'll be moving into a new house and building a pc (currently didn't have one) in 2 months so I'll be able to readily post content on my youtube as well!
    Post edited by TheBlackHombre on
  • RedTag14RedTag14 Joined: Posts: 107
    Best of luck and thanks for the update @TheBlackHombre! The LS-64 is looking like a good fit. Any chance we can talk about layouts in the meantime as you're building?
  • TheBlackHombreTheBlackHombre Aesthetic Joined: Posts: 1,658
    RedTag14 wrote: »
    Best of luck and thanks for the update @TheBlackHombre! The LS-64 is looking like a good fit. Any chance we can talk about layouts in the meantime as you're building?

    Sent you a pm
  • MeiliIsCharmMeiliIsCharm Joined: Posts: 16
    edited July 2016
    RedTag14 wrote: »
    Best of luck and thanks for the update @TheBlackHombre! The LS-64 is looking like a good fit. Any chance we can talk about layouts in the meantime as you're building?

    Sent you a pm

    Is it possible to share any pictures(through PM or posting here) of your friend's frankenstick, and some tips on how to build it? I want to try making it


    Edit: NVM
    Post edited by MeiliIsCharm on
  • TheBlackHombreTheBlackHombre Aesthetic Joined: Posts: 1,658
    edited July 2016
    I had a long conversation with my friend who made the Frankenstein stick last night and we came up with what we believe to be even superior button layout (compared to the final layout I posted earlier on this page).

    It is very similar to the old layout - just improved a tad bit. We changed the location of some buttons entirely (off of the original 8 button vewlix location) to allow both high level execution and normal gameplay execution to be done with ease. The new layout keeps in mind particular option selects top players use which throw off the ergonomics of our current button layout (my friend has been using our previously "final" button layout but he applied all the tech I'm referring to into his gameplay - which is what allowed us to revamp the layout for the future changes).

    A big benefit of our revised layout is that the new layout allows us to not place any strain on the hands/wrists/forearms since we took in mind all the documented motions that cause the various types of carpal tunnel when playing on a controller or arcade stick.

    I'll be traveling to my parent's house this weekend to borrow my dad's dremel, so we'll be testing the new layout next week. We'll be showing the button layout to everyone here as soon as it's finished and tested. In addition to that, since I'll have a dremel to use - expect a working and playable prototype of the analog smash stick next week as well!



    In news unrelated to me, the people over at hitbox arcade made their own version of a smash bros arcade stick - in the form of a hitbox.
    http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/comment/10886194/#Comment_10886194
    I had mixed feelings on seeing the video initially because I wanted to be the person to make the go-to arcade stick for smash bros. I felt as if the ability to do so was taken from me (especially since they'll be profiting from it) but I know it's nothing personal like that.

    I'm curious to see the future progress of their stick, I really liked their idea of having a shift button for their shield buttons - which allows one shield pushbutton (L or R) to do both light and hard shield. I may play around with the idea as well with my revised button layout. However there are a lot of things with their button layout in general that directly conflict with what my friend and I have discovered that have a big correlation with the development of carpal tunnel.
  • JohnGrimmJohnGrimm A.K.A. JohnXuandou Joined: Posts: 4,281
    New_Challenger_Approaching.0.jpg

    image

    The Hit Box take on things for those interested.
    You lack devotion! Enduring hunger and poverty is how you find the way!
  • MeiliIsCharmMeiliIsCharm Joined: Posts: 16
    When you press the F5 button one too many times cause of the hype

    pyFY72V.gif

    hopefully the case will be up and ready soon
  • TheBlackHombreTheBlackHombre Aesthetic Joined: Posts: 1,658
    It should be! My friend and I are working on it and he should have a printed plexiglass with our final button layout on it by the end of the day. I'm going to try to have everything ready by the end of the day or tomorrow.

    If things take longer than anticipated, I'll just transfer everything into a Tupperware case for a week since I'll be able to cut proper holes with the dremel I have.
  • B.W.B.W. Joined: Posts: 9
    Honestly, I wouldn't worry about the Smashbox being the go-to Smash Arcade Stick. There's a lot the box does right, but there's also a lot of that design I feel like could be improved on, and I use the hitbox for other fighting games.

    I've been slacking on keeping up with this thread, but I'll never stop it from giving me e-mails. Honestly, if the LS-64 works out well I'll probably have to ask about getting one. I haven't been playing a lot due to lack of interest, but for some reason I feel like having a stick for Smash would peak my interest again.

    I'm going to backtrack to see what I missed, but just in case I miss it, what's the current layout you have going?
  • MeiliIsCharmMeiliIsCharm Joined: Posts: 16
    It should be! My friend and I are working on it and he should have a printed plexiglass with our final button layout on it by the end of the day. I'm going to try to have everything ready by the end of the day or tomorrow.

    If things take longer than anticipated, I'll just transfer everything into a Tupperware case for a week since I'll be able to cut proper holes with the dremel I have.

    Until then my F5 will be jackhammered

    Also, I've been wanting to ask about restrictor gates. Wouldn't square gates mess up the analog values, considering how the ration between the corners and the sides is somewhere around 1.4:1? Just curious
  • TheBlackHombreTheBlackHombre Aesthetic Joined: Posts: 1,658
    edited July 2016
    I'm going to try to keep everyone updated as often as I can - which is something I could have done a lot better before.
    B.W. wrote: »
    Honestly, I wouldn't worry about the Smashbox being the go-to Smash Arcade Stick. There's a lot the box does right, but there's also a lot of that design I feel like could be improved on, and I use the hitbox for other fighting games.

    I've been slacking on keeping up with this thread, but I'll never stop it from giving me e-mails. Honestly, if the LS-64 works out well I'll probably have to ask about getting one. I haven't been playing a lot due to lack of interest, but for some reason I feel like having a stick for Smash would peak my interest again.

    I'm going to backtrack to see what I missed, but just in case I miss it, what's the current layout you have going?

    http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/comment/10520041/#Comment_10520041

    This post has the latest button layouts I've come up with, however I'm currently testing a layout that I believe is even superior to this one. I'll be sure to post it as soon as I'm ready with it. My friend texted me today saying the laser cut panel will ready this Friday instead of today, sadly. We can still try it in person, however, when I dremel a panel later tonight since we have a printable cad file to use.

    It should be! My friend and I are working on it and he should have a printed plexiglass with our final button layout on it by the end of the day. I'm going to try to have everything ready by the end of the day or tomorrow.

    If things take longer than anticipated, I'll just transfer everything into a Tupperware case for a week since I'll be able to cut proper holes with the dremel I have.

    Until then my F5 will be jackhammered

    Also, I've been wanting to ask about restrictor gates. Wouldn't square gates mess up the analog values, considering how the ration between the corners and the sides is somewhere around 1.4:1? Just curious

    The LS-64 is naturally a circle gate, the entire joystick casing is 2 big pieces that connect together - with all the internal parts working inside. Because of the nature of case it's housed in, changing the gate to square isn't possible. I'm curious in attempting to 3D print a new bottom piece that restricts the joystick to a similar fashion of a square gate.

    This post will give a better idea of what I mean.
    http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/comment/9942575/#Comment_9942575

    Also expect some news later tonight, I will try to finish dremeling the panel tonight but if I'm not able to finish it. I will be sure to make a post with the news and my best ETA.


    Edit: My dad's dremel has been sitting in a garage for years. Apparently whenever he used it, he used it while holding the release button (I'm assuming) so I'm not able to replace the drill end of the dremel :/

    My friend has a small drill that supposedly can do the job, so we'll try again later tonight.
    Post edited by TheBlackHombre on
  • MeiliIsCharmMeiliIsCharm Joined: Posts: 16
    pcyc4Ni.jpg


    Seriously though, what you're doing can very well push the entire metagame forward. You should really be paid for all of this work
  • TheBlackHombreTheBlackHombre Aesthetic Joined: Posts: 1,658
    image

    Got everything ready for the case but didn't realize I didn't have screws to mount the joystick. Oh well, I'll get screws tomorrow and have a full video of me using it then.

    Until then, here's something to hold you over. a video of what the joystick looks like in game. Note at how much precision the joystick offers me, doing rotating up tilts is super easy and I still have full control of all my directions including jumping with the analog stick if I wanted!
  • TheBlackHombreTheBlackHombre Aesthetic Joined: Posts: 1,658
    Haven't done anything else to the stick yet, I had an emergency that required me to leave the area last weekend and I'm going to Metrocon this weekend so I'll most likely get to working on the stick on Monday. Most days of the week I've just been busy at work.

    I tried messaging 2 case builders about making me a custom case for this as well, but I never heard anything back which is a shame. I'll keep trying otherwise I'll make something out of mdf for it.
  • DoubleJabDoubleJab Joined: Posts: 10
    @MeililsCharm
    You know once Paradise Arcade releases Project Magenta, analog joysticks will be available to anyone with a JLF.
  • TheBlackHombreTheBlackHombre Aesthetic Joined: Posts: 1,658
    edited July 2016

    Yeah I saw this recently too when I was trying to find more information on the stick. My friend told me about the Google translate app which can translate actual images if you take a photo of something, so I've been translating Japanese images about the stick!
    DoubleJab wrote: »
    @MeililsCharm
    You know once Paradise Arcade releases Project Magenta, analog joysticks will be available to anyone with a JLF.

    I discovered this when I first started the thread. Project Magenta isn't analog - still digital. What's analog about it is the range in which you can set your threshold range for inputs.
  • DoubleJabDoubleJab Joined: Posts: 10
    @TheBlackHombre
    Ohh gotcha. Thanks for clearing that up. Sorry if I spread any misinformation.
  • MeiliIsCharmMeiliIsCharm Joined: Posts: 16
    It's been a while, are there any updates to the new layout and whatnot?
  • TheBlackHombreTheBlackHombre Aesthetic Joined: Posts: 1,658
    edited October 2016
    DoubleJab wrote: »
    @TheBlackHombre
    Ohh gotcha. Thanks for clearing that up. Sorry if I spread any misinformation.
    You're good man.
    It's been a while, are there any updates to the new layout and whatnot?
    In terms of something tangible I can show - no.

    In terms of what has been done so far:
    My roommate who plays on his frankenstein stick has been playing with the final button layout for quite some time, and he's gone through 2 revisions of it (latest one as of last week) which tweaked the location/size of the buttons ever so slightly for ergonomics and efficiency. He's been really outstanding on the progress he's been doing on his project which I pretty much piggy-backed off of with his permission of course. He's finished the .cad of his entire arcade stick already and will be laser cutting/3d printing (forgot which one he's doing - his current prototype was all laser cut from wood) it soon. He wants it ready for a tournament we're both competing in this month. We'll be entering doubles (for Melee) as a team and he knows the people running the regional so we'll be on stream too so you can get a look at what the progress on both of our sticks looks like in action soon. Most likely towards the end of the month.
  • AlkamistAlkamist Joined: Posts: 2
    Gummo wrote: »
    The shift button is actually functioning the other way. When the joystick is moved it registers 100% of that axis. If the shift button is held then it uses the % setting of the pot.

    The chips I used were 4066 switching chips and hex inverters.

    I hope this isn't too much of a tangent, but I was hoping you could maybe explain how to hook up the 4066 switching chips and hex inverters to get this effect.

    I have recently decided to build my own version of the Hitbox Smashbox, and the way it works is it has two modifiers for each axis on the left stick.

    I'm very new at electronics, but I designed a simple circuit that accomplishes this without chips, but it has problems. The circuit works, but it seems that as time passes after controller calibration, the signal gets really noisy and it starts missing finer things like shield drops. I am guessing that this has something to do with the fact that this circuit has variable current where the controller expects it to be static.

    If you go here (http://www.falstad.com/circuit/circuitjs.html) and copy and paste the following text after going to File->Import from text, it should show my circuit.

    Here it is:
    $ 1 0.000005 19.867427341514983 61 5 43
    r 752 400 864 400 0 4700
    r 864 400 976 400 0 4700
    r 624 352 720 352 0 470
    r 1008 352 1104 352 0 470
    s 752 368 864 368 0 1 false
    s 864 368 976 368 0 1 false
    R 1104 352 1136 352 0 0 40 3.3 0 0 0.5
    g 624 352 608 352 0
    r 864 336 976 336 0 783
    s 752 336 864 336 0 1 false
    s 752 304 864 304 0 1 false
    r 864 304 976 304 0 250
    w 752 304 720 352 0
    w 752 336 720 352 0
    w 752 368 720 352 0
    w 720 352 752 400 0
    w 1008 352 976 400 0
    w 1008 352 976 368 0
    w 1008 352 976 336 0
    w 1008 352 976 304 0
    w 864 368 864 400 0
    w 864 432 864 400 0
    x 874 282 971 285 0 24 Modifiers
    x 735 456 1025 459 0 24 To where the pot wiper was
    
  • GummoGummo Can We Mod It? Yes, We Can! Joined: Posts: 5,472
    I just recently finished another gc padhack and documented the schematics. I could clean it up and post it.

    The 4066 chip basically just switches the x or y axis signal to 3v or gnd. The inverter is used to control the switch gates since they are open when low and closed when high. The opposite of what happens when you press a button (button signal is high when not pressed and low when pressed)
    Website: http://www.gummods.com
    Youtube Channel: http://www.youtube.com/gummowned
    Twitter: @Gummowned
    Will be providing my modding services at EVO @ the Madcatz booth!
  • AlkamistAlkamist Joined: Posts: 2
    Gummo wrote: »
    I just recently finished another gc padhack and documented the schematics. I could clean it up and post it.

    If that's not a hassle, it would most likely help me very much! It would be greatly appreciated.

  • DrSammyDDrSammyD Joined: Posts: 27
    This may be relevant.
    DrSammyD wrote: »
    I just got a new Foehammer Stick. It's a smash bros 4 stick.
    B09dgyf.jpg
    g0gEjHz.jpg
    I hooked up the joystick buttons to LS and RS on a brook pcb and got a hollow jlf shaft to pass the wires through.
    qBYwl3O.jpg
    I use them in a similar way as the smashbox combined with the black 4P button. Also by pressing the triggers on the stick combined with the yellow 2P button, I emulate the C-Stick. The orange button is a combo of attack and special, so it's a dedicated smash button. The green button is a dedicated tilt attack button.

    The cronusmax is what powers the scripts. Unfortunately the Brook Wii U super converter doesn't work with the cronusmax (though the Brook Xbox One super converter does).

  • TheBlackHombreTheBlackHombre Aesthetic Joined: Posts: 1,658
    edited April 15
    An update for you guys and the reason as to why I've went ghost for so long :)

    image

    Cool thing to know is that I've also created an analog joystick.
  • HappensHappens Joined: Posts: 3
    This is so cool! I was like "no way this stick will ever work" but it looks like you proved me wrong for sure.
  • DotCalDotCal Joined: Posts: 18
    edited April 16
    Looks really sweet. I use a hitbox for SF and I think having a stick rather than 4 direction buttons would actually work better for Smash. Also having buttons on the stick is another interesting idea.
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