Project: Dedicated Smash Bros Arcade Stick - Update - Seimitsu LS-64 in action!

13

Comments

  • ShitakiShitaki Joined: Posts: 18
    Shitaki wrote: »
    Hmm I think you forgot multiple shining, and maybe do some more brawl specific tech in PM like RAR. If I can think some more specific tech, then I'll let you know. Are you able to do some netplay? Or have a human opponent?
    Yeah multi-shining is something planned as well, I forgot to write it down.
    That's a good idea as well, I'm primarily a PM player so I can definately showcase brawl mechanics; however imo RAR is a really really simply concept but I'll still cover it. And yes I have the ability to netplay, that's where I get most of my practice in actually and I'd love to play against you sometime if you'd like! I also have human opponents I can play with however I just have to plan everything to get some friends together for a session, it was easier to do some random meet-ups in any game when I lived in Olando. Typically when I go to Orlando I stay there for the weekend but with plans or work getting in the way, I won't be able to stay up there for another weekend in about 3 weeks :( However, I've been wanting to take Melee more seriously so I plan to play against the Orlando players whenever I go up there next.

    EDIT: I'm planning on recording the video Thursday night since I'm free then. Also I'm open to anything you'd like to list for me to showcase/perform for the video, I'm open to any smash game. Keep in mind, I don't own a wii u so I'll have to go to my friend's place to record anything regarding smash 4. Currently, I barely play that game so I'm probably just gonna perform some Ryu combos.

    EDIT 2: Want to clarify, shield dropping IS possible without needing to set the shift down button to 41%!! I can shield drop how most people do, by tilting the joystick all the way to the edge of the gate and then sliding the joystick to the bottom diagonal. Of course, I use the shift button to do this but it makes me very happy that I can do this. As of today, I don't think there is any technique that you can do on a controller than you can't do on this!

    Yeah I'm primarily a PM player so I'm looking forward to it! I'll take you up on that offer sometime! I only played netplay a couple of times back when I had a terrible 2 port mayflash adapter lol. Is there a better place to contact you at? I can't wait to see your videos! I want to know what are your plans for the sticks also! Update us soon!
  • TheBlackHombreTheBlackHombre Aesthetic Joined: Posts: 1,672
    edited July 2015
    Shitaki wrote: »
    Shitaki wrote: »
    Hmm I think you forgot multiple shining, and maybe do some more brawl specific tech in PM like RAR. If I can think some more specific tech, then I'll let you know. Are you able to do some netplay? Or have a human opponent?
    Yeah multi-shining is something planned as well, I forgot to write it down.
    That's a good idea as well, I'm primarily a PM player so I can definately showcase brawl mechanics; however imo RAR is a really really simply concept but I'll still cover it. And yes I have the ability to netplay, that's where I get most of my practice in actually and I'd love to play against you sometime if you'd like! I also have human opponents I can play with however I just have to plan everything to get some friends together for a session, it was easier to do some random meet-ups in any game when I lived in Olando. Typically when I go to Orlando I stay there for the weekend but with plans or work getting in the way, I won't be able to stay up there for another weekend in about 3 weeks :( However, I've been wanting to take Melee more seriously so I plan to play against the Orlando players whenever I go up there next.

    EDIT: I'm planning on recording the video Thursday night since I'm free then. Also I'm open to anything you'd like to list for me to showcase/perform for the video, I'm open to any smash game. Keep in mind, I don't own a wii u so I'll have to go to my friend's place to record anything regarding smash 4. Currently, I barely play that game so I'm probably just gonna perform some Ryu combos.

    EDIT 2: Want to clarify, shield dropping IS possible without needing to set the shift down button to 41%!! I can shield drop how most people do, by tilting the joystick all the way to the edge of the gate and then sliding the joystick to the bottom diagonal. Of course, I use the shift button to do this but it makes me very happy that I can do this. As of today, I don't think there is any technique that you can do on a controller than you can't do on this!

    Yeah I'm primarily a PM player so I'm looking forward to it! I'll take you up on that offer sometime! I only played netplay a couple of times back when I had a terrible 2 port mayflash adapter lol. Is there a better place to contact you at? I can't wait to see your videos! I want to know what are your plans for the sticks also! Update us soon!

    I didn't record anything yet since I spent most of Thursday night practicing execution for different characters. I'm pretty consistent with lots of Fox's double shine shenanigans and OoS shenanigans now. I chose not to record anything yet because some issues came up with the stick that I'm really dissapointed about hardware wise, but I need to do testing on an actual console (and not emulated on PC) to see if these same issues exist on console. None of the joysticks (LS or C-stick) give a 100% analog value which may have a bigger negative effect on gameplay than I originally thought. The actual values the sticks are giving aren't an issue gameplay wise (in the traditional sense) because I can still do smash attacks and smash DI. I did lots of tests before the stick was even wired to confirm these thoughts but I've recently discovered some things that don't work properly.

    I need to see if the c-stick buttons still allow me to jump OoS on a gamecube because currently they do not on PC (I can calibrate the distance of my joysticks to solve this but I need to know if this works natively on gamecube or not). Also since the joystick (that's acting as the LS) is digital, I can't manually angle my tilts to a specific degree so the game is registering my angled smash attacks as down or forward smash attacks. I actually noticed that issue the same day I got the stick because this is such an integral part of my punish game with my character in PM. Not being able to angle my stick exacly how I'd like also screws me up when I'm trying to wavedash off stage to grab the ledge, because the game will give me a back input instead of a downback input sometimes so I just air dodge off stage to my death. This could also potentially be a hardware issue on the stick itself since I never had these issue when I used to play with the stock qanba q1 joystick (PC emulated). Once the stick was upgraded to a sanwa JLF is when I had these issues, I've even went back and tried playing with another stick via PC that has sanwa and the same issues occur. I think I may have to end up re-using my old q1 joystick which would suck.

    Sorry for not having a video, I plan to make a really in-depth analysis of how I use and play with the stick but I need time to sit down in front of a gamecube console and I don't own one. I'm always busy with work so I don't have time to go somewhere to play on a console unless it's the weekend, and my weekends have all been busy lately as well :( I plan to update the thread really really soon but I just need access to a gamecube for now. I'll try to go to a friend's place sometime this week to test more and possibly record. I will record 100% by next week though because I plan to go to Orlando for the weekend to play Melee specifically.

    I feel like the analog version of the smash stick will be the best version to play on since all of these issues will be corrected and I'll have a much more efficient button layout. I realized how integral having a second jump button (in an ergonomic spot) is to doing Fox/Falco's doubleshine stuff so I would like to hurry and get started on the case for the analog stick. I'm also considering using 24mm buttons instead of 30mm buttons for the analog stick since I will have 12 buttons drilled instead of 8, it may end up feeling more ergonomic since the hand won't have to actually move much -- just the fingers. I'll have to experiment and find out.

    Thanks for being so patient. Once I make the video, I plan to send a tip about the stick or srk, eventhubs, and smashboards since I'm sure people would be interested in seeing how it works and how I play with it.

    EDIT: and this is the best place to contact me. I check the SRK forums multiple times per day, if you ever want to privately message me; feel free to PM me.

    EDIT2: Decided to see what I could do by recording my PC and hooking up my phone as webcam and this is what I got:

    I think after I do more testing on an actual gamecube, I'm going to go to my friend's place and record everything on his gaming PC since his will run every thing 60fps. I was shocked I was able to get 45fps. This, IMO, is a more of a proof of concept to see if I could do recording like this. I'll use an actual webcame for recording the controller since you can see that the phone camera ended up crashing shortly after recording.
    Post edited by TheBlackHombre on
  • ShitakiShitaki Joined: Posts: 18
    Good stuff! Definitely the layout of a fight stick is so much easier to do tech skill than a gamecube controller. I hope you can show off some PM at your friends place too since I'm primarily a PM player. Was the input lag on your PC bad? Or not too noticeable?
  • TheBlackHombreTheBlackHombre Aesthetic Joined: Posts: 1,672
    Shitaki wrote: »
    Good stuff! Definitely the layout of a fight stick is so much easier to do tech skill than a gamecube controller. I hope you can show off some PM at your friends place too since I'm primarily a PM player. Was the input lag on your PC bad? Or not too noticeable?

    Sure I can! There's no input lag, I play on an asus monitor and when I'm not streaming, I get 60 fps. However I did notice a timing difference between emulator and gamecube sadly, but it's negligible.
  • ShitakiShitaki Joined: Posts: 18
    Shitaki wrote: »
    Good stuff! Definitely the layout of a fight stick is so much easier to do tech skill than a gamecube controller. I hope you can show off some PM at your friends place too since I'm primarily a PM player. Was the input lag on your PC bad? Or not too noticeable?

    Sure I can! There's no input lag, I play on an asus monitor and when I'm not streaming, I get 60 fps. However I did notice a timing difference between emulator and gamecube sadly, but it's negligible.

    That's good and do you have a definite button layout yet? I think I found a site that has analogue sticks so if I get one made. I would like to see a lot of button layouts to see what works best
  • ShitakiShitaki Joined: Posts: 18
    edited August 2015
    Would you know if this joystick might be compatible with padhacks? na.suzohapp.com/all_catalogs/joysticks/50-2876-00
    @TheBlackHombre
  • DarksakulDarksakul Your lack of faith disturbs me Joined: Posts: 24,245
    Shitaki wrote: »
    Would you know if this joystick might be compatible with padhacks? na.suzohapp.com/all_catalogs/joysticks/50-2876-00
    @TheBlackHombre
    If you are trying to replace one of the Analog nubs instead of wiring a traditional joystick to the d-pad.
    “Strong people don't put others down... They lift them up.”
    - Darth Vader, Philanthropist
  • TheBlackHombreTheBlackHombre Aesthetic Joined: Posts: 1,672
    The video I talked about making was planned to be finished and uploaded by tonight. Currently all the video footage is completed but'm currently waiting on my friend to finish video editing. I wanted to go over to his house and finish it there in person, but I never heard back from him. I'll try to see if I can get every thing edited and uploaded by tomorrow night for you guys.

    CLYWCVBUsAAdbZp.jpg

    Thanks every one for your patience. I'll talk about the details of videos I have planned. I'm going to film a small video series demoing the smash stick. The first video goes over my button layout and smash 4 gameplay. My second video will be an advanced tech skill showcase in Melee and PM. My third video will be really in-depth coverage of the stick, button layout, showing the insides as well as how every thing works. My fourth video (might include this in the third) will be my future plans for the JLF smash stick as well as the LS-64 smash stick. All the videos will be a pretty nice quality and should have decent production quality. I plan to have 2 overlays on-screen that show my inputs for an arcade stick layout and gamecube controller layout (these overlays will be absent from the first video since we're capturing from a Wii U and can't have our inputs be read on-screen).

    I'm really hoping that these videos are seen by a lot of people, I know there is a lot of interest for people who want to play smash on stick and I'm hoping these videos can serve as a big resource for them. My friend who helped me with the video joked with me, saying imagine if this starts a trend of people playing smash on arcade sticks and it became the standard way to play smash. I also talked to one of the writing staff from SmashBoards and he agreed to feature the video on the front page once I release it. I'm hoping that will help with the exposure and hopefully other people help spread the word as well.

    I'm going to go to sleep now but I'll have an update for every one tomorrow night after work.
  • ShitakiShitaki Joined: Posts: 18
    edited August 2015
    Darksakul wrote: »
    Shitaki wrote: »
    Would you know if this joystick might be compatible with padhacks? na.suzohapp.com/all_catalogs/joysticks/50-2876-00
    @TheBlackHombre
    If you are trying to replace one of the Analog nubs instead of wiring a traditional joystick to the d-pad.

    EDIT: Misread it
  • ShitakiShitaki Joined: Posts: 18
    Oh is the video delayed??
  • TheBlackHombreTheBlackHombre Aesthetic Joined: Posts: 1,672
    edited August 2015
    Shitaki wrote: »
    Oh is the video delayed??
    Yeah sorry, my friend took longer than expected. Video just got uploaded!


    edit:
    Updated the OP as well.
    Post edited by TheBlackHombre on
  • B.W.B.W. Joined: Posts: 9
    It's pretty cool someone is tackling this project. I've been talking about the benefits of playing Smash on an arcade stick for years and I've been using the GCC for competitive play for 11 years.

    I had a bunch of layouts with an analog stick in mind but my computer with them died. I'm in the middle of recreating the old and new ones. I can post them if anyone is interested.

    Also nice work with the shift button work around, I didn't even know dolphin had something like that. I started fiddling with Hitbox layouts for Smash as well with a button to simulate left shift. Things are a little weirder for the Hitbox though.
  • TheBlackHombreTheBlackHombre Aesthetic Joined: Posts: 1,672
    I'm currently working on the next video. The video was delayed for a good period of time because I was really persistent on trying to get my inputs be displayed on the screen, however Windows 10 doesn't seem to be compatible with the needed programs. I'm hoping to have the video done by next week or the week after that. The goal of the next video is to present an insane amount of content and information in a really concise manner. The visuals and production quality are a lot better than the last video, so I'm really excited to hear what every one has to say once it's released.

    The primary focus of the next video is Melee, but I do touch on Project M. There isn't going to be much talking in the video, just a ton of concise and cleanly edited information/video. I plan to demonstrate the pros/cons of the stick vs gc controller (which includes general arcade stick vs controller benefits such as pianoing, sliding, double tapping, and plinking which all benefit Melee), and demonstrate a wide array of tech skill scenarios such as the Melee mechanics and character specific techniques and combos.
    B.W. wrote: »
    It's pretty cool someone is tackling this project. I've been talking about the benefits of playing Smash on an arcade stick for years and I've been using the GCC for competitive play for 11 years.

    I had a bunch of layouts with an analog stick in mind but my computer with them died. I'm in the middle of recreating the old and new ones. I can post them if anyone is interested.

    Also nice work with the shift button work around, I didn't even know dolphin had something like that. I started fiddling with Hitbox layouts for Smash as well with a button to simulate left shift. Things are a little weirder for the Hitbox though.
    I'd love to see some of your layouts! I've also been tinkering with mine as well and believe I found a finalized button layout. I've already tested it already and believe it is optimal for arcade stick, hitbox, and keyboard players. I just need to test it with some Sanwa 24mm to see exactly how it feels with smaller buttons -- which is something I'd want due to the added buttons. I'll post up a picture of the layout later today.
  • ShitakiShitaki Joined: Posts: 18
    Any update on the sticks? Or any videos in the works?
  • TheBlackHombreTheBlackHombre Aesthetic Joined: Posts: 1,672
    Shitaki wrote: »
    Any update on the sticks? Or any videos in the works?
    Sorry for the lack of updates. I moved to a new city a month ago so I haven't made any new videos.

    I had some footage recorded months ago, but I'd want to re-record all of it since my execution has gotten way better since then. I could do something quick with a tripod and just record the screen itself (not using a capture card) as well as my hands so I wouldn't have to do any video editing. The production quality would be meh but it would be more content for you guys. I'm living in Orlando now, so I'm in a big fgc area; I could record as much footage as I'd like, whenever I'd like.

    The only updates I have for you guys is that I'm going to just make a heavy duty tupper ware case for my analog smash stick since I really want to use it; and I could test different button layouts on a case that isn't permanent. I never heard back from the original case builder that I wanted, so I will get in contact with a new case builder once my button layout is finalized.
  • MentalMantelMentalMantel Joined: Posts: 31
    edited December 2015
    Hey,
    I shot you a Twitter message as well (thanks for the reply and can't wait for the video you said you have coming). I made a smash stick (shameless plug https://youtu.be/JH5DYYVtpMs), but I had to make my own analog joystick (finding the right throw for a slide potentiometer was a pain. The resistor in parallel to match what the GC controller expected was pretty easy).

    I kept the "C" stick on mine so I couldn't just slap it in a regular case. I currently have it in tupperware (like you mention), but I'm thinking of using pourable epoxy to make the top portion of the case. I'm slightly worried about it being sturdy enough.

    Does anyone have any experience? Or do you suggest I just pay for a laser cut plexi?

    My execution has gone to hell since I have started using the stick...but I just need to keep practicing
  • manbehindthewiresmanbehindthewires Consider yourself lightly, consider the world deeply Joined: Posts: 947
    Nice! That joystick is loose as hell, but it still looks really playable :)
    Love the approach to prototyping it as well. Personally, I'd rather use cardinal buttons for the C-Stick inputs, but it's all preference.

    Few questions:

    Did you ever find out where that joystick came from? Does the part itself have any part/manufacturer numbers on it?

    Is there a way of tweaking the analogue to reduce how far you have to throw it?
    SFV: Chun Li [CFN: thewires / manbehindthewires]
    Third Strike: Alex/Ibuki [Fightcade: MBTW]
    Here to learn.
  • MentalMantelMentalMantel Joined: Posts: 31
    edited December 2015
    It came out of a type of joystick called a Raider Pro (this).

    I'm playing with the joystick a lot. First thing I'm going to try to do is replace the springs. Hoping it will help with the horrid deflection I have. I'm also going to be using this one as a base to design something slightly better as this right now is hard to mount and some of the pieces are screwed together instead of being one piece which means that if the screw gets loose then odd things can happen (like introducing an odd drift effect).

    I'll either CAD the design and send it out to get a prototype or I'll use some modelling clay and pourable plastic.

    I'm just getting into fighting games and smash was what got my feet wet so I've yet to use a "real" joystick, so I don't know how they feel, but I've got other projects planned where I'll be getting a more standard joystick that I can compare it with and will be using what I learn to adjust the analog on this one
    Post edited by MentalMantel on
  • TheBlackHombreTheBlackHombre Aesthetic Joined: Posts: 1,672
    Hey mental sorry for no video, I was going to make it today since I wasn't working today but I got invited by some old friends I haven't seen in a year to drink and play pool so I did that instead. My video is just going to be a response to yours giving my feedback in regards to improvements you can do to your stick to make it more ergonomic and effective for playing. I also plan to give you some tips for making the transition to arcade stick effectively (especially since we're the only people playing smash like this) and show more of how my stick actually works.

    I have all my bullet points made for me to read off of in the video so expect a video tomorrow if I have time.

    Also I'm going to make a new video (unrelated to the one above) that is going to showcase how I play, and perform tech skill. Expect the production quality to be even better than my first one, I have a good friend of mine helping me make it. It's someone else than the first video, since I live in a new city quite awhile away from the old city I was in.

    I know I said this in the past but I'm hoping to actually start delivering regular content about the stick. I literally moved 3 times since my last video was made but now I'm relocated permanently for work so time shouldn't be an issue anymore.
  • MentalMantelMentalMantel Joined: Posts: 31
    edited December 2015
    No worries.
    I'm practicing inputs and just grinding right now, while plotting my improvements. I'm trying to get an HDMI capture card but until I do, I don't want to put out (essentially) crap quality on Smash.
    I could mod my 3DS to take a GC input (as I have a 3DS with capture card already)...but I've got other stuff to work on (not to mention retraining my brain to use the stick)

    Tips for improvement are always welcome ;-)
    Post edited by MentalMantel on
  • TheBlackHombreTheBlackHombre Aesthetic Joined: Posts: 1,672
    edited December 2015
    No worries.
    I'm practicing inputs and just grinding right now, while plotting my improvements. I'm trying to get an HDMI capture card but until I do, I don't want to put out (essentially) crap quality on Smash.
    I could mod my 3DS to take a GC input (as I have a 3DS with capture card already)...but I've got other stuff to work on (not to mention retraining my brain to use the stick)

    Tips for improvement are always welcome ;-)

    I procrastinated heavily on the video but I made it, it's uploading right now. I'll link it here when it's done.


    Button layouts I talk about in the video, and some information on where I would recommend placing your c-stick on your stick.
    Intuitive Layout
    zpiJghT.png

    Efficient Layout
    0r9f5fj.png

    This is something I forgot to cover in the video but since you use an actual c-stick; I would recommend using the 'efficient' layout I talked about -- but place your c-stick where my c-stick down button is. That way you still have full access to your buttons and only will remove your thumb from the buttons to use the c-stick. Useful examples of this would be when you want to do a smash attack or do jumping aerials while still controlling your direction in the air with the analog stick!

    For every one else, I do recommend watching the video as well since I talk about other things related to the stick. I also will make a follow up video in 2 weeks that should be edited nicely which shows how I play on the stick.
    Post edited by TheBlackHombre on
  • MentalMantelMentalMantel Joined: Posts: 31
    edited December 2015
    Thanks for the reply.
    Yea my layout is a little more specialized for my hands and my play vs. more generic for anybody who might want to use a stick.

    The other day I brought my stick to a buddy's house and he mentioned wanting the C stick closer to the other buttons (I have big hands so it isn't even a stretch for me. Plus as I mentioned I don't use it much so I didn't want accidental inputs.)

    I should also mention that I didn't play Smash until it came out for the 3DS and then for the Wii U. I don't see myself playing one of the older games (oh god the learning curve) so I didn't have need for a light shield button. In my current layout I have one button not hooked up to anything which could become a light shield button very easily.

    I reduced the throw slightly by cutting about a quarter inch off of the top stick. It is still more than on a digital joystick, but from what it looks like in your reply, it is pretty similar to the Seimitsu throw. I'm still waiting on a spring
  • TheBlackHombreTheBlackHombre Aesthetic Joined: Posts: 1,672
    There are some points that I didn't clarify on in the video. The video was a direct reply to yours but I expanded on some information I talked about previously in the thread. But I also talked about my general thoughts during the process of the stick and why I made the decisions that I did.

    Your joystick looks really good already performance wise. The combo of using a harder spring and lessening the throw distance will help get an arcade feel I believe. I can't speak too much about your joystick vs the one I'm using since I don't know how it's constructed (I would love to talk more and compare the process of your build vs mine, it would be really interesting and we'll probably both learn a lot).

    Now the reason I wanted the c-stick to be buttons was I felt that using the c-stick itself would minimize the ergonomics and speed at which I could play at (and be unintuitive to have 2 analog sticks + buttons on an arcade stick). Using buttons has no downside on gameplay (even taking advanced techniques into account) and has advantages compared to a physical c-stick: such as being able use the c-stick for attacks easier/quicker in combination of using other buttons compared to a controller. An example is performance instant aerials using the c-stick, it's very easy to press the jump button and then press the c-stick up button for an instant short hop (SH) > Uair for example. I personally believe converting the c-stick into buttons is a superior option vs controller and that is a benefit of playing on a stick compared to controller.

    Now if you still want to use the c-stick, I would recommend placing it under the attack button so you can use it for your thumb. The arcade stick allows you to have a "home row" hand position where your fingers have access to all buttons which the controller does not allow (unless you use a claw grip but the downside to that is its unergonomic and uncomfortable, unlike an arcade stick). Under the "efficient" layout that I made, the thumb is used independently for attacks so switching between the attack button or c-stick would be the most intuitive/ergonomic for gameplay in my opinion.

    One of the main goals I had with the button layout was to make gameplay as ergonomic and intuitive as possible. Using the home row position that the "efficient" layout offers allows all 4 necessary buttons to play access to an independent finger without having to shift your hand position. I'd have to rewatch your video (I'm on break from work at the moment so it would be later tonight) to compare where your buttons are on your layout. But I laid out the buttons the way I did so you do not have to shift your hand to play and this allows you to have faster and accurate inputs compared to any other layout (in my opinion, but I've done lots of personal tests to come up with the layout I did). I would highly recommend switching to it so you don't have to relearn your muscle memory for playing (which I have done many times and will have to do one more time when I switch to the new layout soon) as time goes on. I could imagine doing out of shield (OoS) attacks would be a bit of a chore on your layout currently (ex: jump cancel out of shield into a rising Bair). If you're not using defensive techniques like that currently, you will in the future as your skill level improves and I feel you may be limited in your accuracy and input speed if you continue to use your button layout.

    Now the light shield button doesn't really have a use if you don't play melee but if the button itself is wired as a a shield input (not using the hard press of the microswitch, only the sliding potentiometer of the gc controller trigger) it will still grant you a full shield in any smash game outside of melee (since the light shield mechanic is melee exclusive) so it's really up to you if you want to wire it or not. It won't effect gameplay otherwise but a second shield button is needed so you can at least quit matches (I currently cannot on my controller).

    That's it for now, I look forward to your thoughts. And I want to mention that the video I made wasn't meant to be disrespectful in the slightest. Upon rewatching the video, I realized the ending may have sounded disrespectful towards you when I didn't mean for it to be. The statement I said something along the lines of "I'm the only one who can give advice and know what they're talking about" wasn't directed towards you, it was a generalized statement since I was referring to the fact that I'm the only person who plays both fighting games and smash on an arcade stick compared to other people who only play smash on a controller or people who only play fighting games on an arcade stick. Just wanted to clear that up if you felt like it was toward you! :smiley:
  • RedTag14RedTag14 Joined: Posts: 107
    Wow, this is a pretty exciting project and it's great to see how @TheBlackHombre's design is evolving and what @MentalMantel has also come up with.

    I really like how Hombre's setup basically translates Smash's control scheme into the traditional Japanese arcade stick layout and feel. As a Street Fighter and air dasher player, I feel like this would be really easy and fun to transition into Smash with this sort of familiarity. I know you're busy but I'm really, really looking forward to your tech video and any tutorials or spec sheet for the community to mimic this setup. Otherwise, I'll probably just commission @Gummo if he's willing to provide this service. xD

    Mantel's design is also really sick because a fully analog stick would possibly remove any awkwardness found in a shift button, but I'm sure that's something time and practice can overcome. Mantel, how did you simply wire the Raider Pro to the GC pad and what modifications to the flightstick casing to accomplish your mod? $23 is a pretty nice price and around the range of replacing a digital arcade joystick, which can make such a mod all the more reasonable. Lastly, how were you able to detach the part of the GC PCB with the C-stick and still get it to work? I know next to nothing about PCBs and wiring besides how to solder and follow directions so any clarification would be awesome~

    Keep up the good work guys!!
  • MentalMantelMentalMantel Joined: Posts: 31
    edited December 2015
    Yea, I should have mentioned while I don't have a light shield button, every button on the GC controller has a button on my pad. I just threw in a PNP gate on the shoulders so they work with the arcade buttons. I then just used the mapping in the game to set what each button does, this lets me hit all the buttons for a reset (it is soooo much easier to hit them all together on the pad actually)

    I'm pretty new to using a pad in general since I'm really just getting into Fighting Games but I have not found myself using my thumb on the buttons at all. My thumb is really just floating the whole time (I will try to make a video or snap some pics of how I hold my hands or of me playing some. I'm thinking I'm going to get a HDMI Capture Card for myself as a gift soon) so reaching for the C stick hasn't been a problem. I'm definitely going to be taking your research, @TheBlackHombre , into account as I plan for the actual case though.

    I am shying away from converting the C stick into buttons because, while I don't see foresee it happening, I don't want to go to a tourney and have an opponent cry foul about an advantage. Even if it is completely false, just having someone raise a stink would cause headaches for a TO and for myself.

    @RedTag14 The Joystick was the "difficult"/fun part of the project for me.
    I scrapped the original casing on top of the joystick (the molded plastic giving it the flight stick look) and removed all the wiring for the buttons. I then scrapped (I'm a packrat, "scrapping" means I keep this stuff in case I can use it on another project later) the motherboard for the flightstick.

    At this point there were no wires or PCB in the Raider Pro. I used a dremel and cut away most of the base (have to be careful to not cut away the support for the pots and such. I'm working on making the mounting better, but since it is in a temporary case it is currently just hot glued on there (it has some wiggle which will be eliminated once I actually mount it). I'm working on making the mounting better.

    The way the flightstick was built, the pots had a range (the base slid around to allow adjustment) and the serial software was used to calibrate. This wouldn't work for the GC Motherboard so I had to scrap the potentiometers in the orginal joystick and find suitable replacements. I couldn't find the exact value that matched the controller (30k ohm) so I knew I would just have to slap a resistor in parallel to bring it where it needed to be.

    The tricky part was finding the correct throw length (18mm btw). I went through a couple different lengths of pots before I found it.

    After that it was simply mounting the slide pot in the Raider Pro (some more dremel work and hot glue) and wiring the pins on the pontentiometers to the correct through hole on the GC motherboard. I can take some pictures of my sloppy hot glue shenanigans if you are interested.
    For my final stick I want to actually make some injection molds (or simpler molds) which will eliminate all the hot glue nonsense.
  • B.W.B.W. Joined: Posts: 9
    So a few months ago I said I would share layouts I made. Then I forgot. Then you guys started talking in this thread again which notified me and made me remember to share.

    Anyway these are some of the layouts I came up with. http://imgur.com/a/krCQQ

    Some of them are doable on a normal stick with a shift key, and I remember testing them, but all of them are with an analog joystick in mind so when I was testing them things didn't really feel right no matter which layout I did. I kind of tested the feel for things on my computer screen as I was adjusting the button placements (I used an actual arcade stick layout for the placement of things as well). I found the jump button needed to be a thumb button, probably because I play fighting games outside of Smash on a hitbox, but it also just seemed easier to press my thumb down before pressing any of the buttons in the air, no matter where it was on the stick. I felt that the shield button should pretty much always be near the A button to make hitting both of them at the same time (for grabbing) easier, I also found it easier to have the shield button be a pointer finger button for whatever reason, that's probably just personal preference though.

    I haven't felt the layouts out in a while, but I think my favorite was probably layout 6 v.2 with 24mm buttons, most likely because the hitbox's buttons, save for the "up" button are all 24mm. Having the buttons smaller also made it easier for my fingers to dance around that kind of weird 8 button layout. I also like the top right corner being empty rather than the top left. Something weird about reaching for that corner with my ring finger.

    Anyway, blah, blah, blah, let me know what you think, and if you have questions on why any of the layouts are the way they are ask and I'll try to answer. Chances are some of the answers are going to be "because I didn't know what I was thinking with that one" though.
  • MentalMantelMentalMantel Joined: Posts: 31
    Some updates.

    I was trying to adjust the spring that was in the stick and accidentally mangled it. Luckily, the spring I was going to replace it with arrived. Unluckily, I think the new spring feels like junk and it doesn't fix the deflection problem. The spring is max force 9 lbs, so it is a little difficult to move like an actual arcade stick (using just the thumb for left movements), so I'm going to get something closer to the original that I mangled.

    As I move into my final build I'm hoping I can fix the deflection problem with some improvements to the mechanical side.

    I'll still be working on this (and trying to figure out if my locals will let me use it, since most state no modified controllers), but it will be on the back burner as I focus on SFV.
  • RedTag14RedTag14 Joined: Posts: 107
    So I'll be honest, I really want to try this out for myself because I play TvC and figure that if I'm gonna mod a stick to be dual-modded with a PS360+ and a GameCube PCB, I might as well attempt to get this sort of functionality out of it - mainly, the "shift button" for walking, tilts, etc. What's going on there?

    I see the 4 potentiometers that @TheBlackHombre mentioned are wired to each of the cardinal directions of the joystick and I'm assuming the shift button unpressed leaves the pots unactivated and then activated when pressed. How is that wired? I also see some chips on the breadboard with the pots (logic gates I'm assuming) and then some resistors on the breadboard with the screw terminals for the buttons. Would just like an explanation to help me and possibly others mimic this setup for our own testing as it seems somewhat promising. Any chance I can get @Gummo, @Darksakul, and/or others to chime in? Lastly, any chance the GC PCB can be cut to a smaller size to save space inside the case (http://www.gc-forever.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=1300)?
  • DarksakulDarksakul Your lack of faith disturbs me Joined: Posts: 24,245
    To avoid confusing how an analog joysticks compared to a digital joystick I going to go on this side tangent

    Actually there only 2 potentiometers in an analog joystick, one for the X axis and one for the Y Axis.

    There is no depression of pots, a potentiometer isn't a switch. It Turns, common places to find a potentiometer is in a older TV or Radio volume knob, a light dimmer knob. Think off a potentiometer as a big adjustable resistor. A Switch operates on the concept of ON and OFF (and only On and OFF), only 2 states, which is also the basic concept of digital electronics Ones and Zeros (One = On, Zero = Off).

    Analog is different, analog works on the concept of different voltage or amperage levels and is a continuous signal, analog operates like a wave.
    Its why Analog was the method of choice for older era TV, Radios, video and audio recordings ect, as it was easy to modulate these continuous signals to sound coming out of speakers or how a image is drawn on a cathode ray tube (CRT) screen.

    Like still to this day the last part of our audio equipment before the wiring goes to a speaker the circuity is analog, the constant modulation of voltage levels acts like a wave which effects how much the magnets and coils move in a speaker which create the sound waves we hear.


    What TheBlackHombre did was he pad hacked a Game Cube controller for stick use, as he was using a Sanwa JLF for his Left analog he had to change the digital output of the JLF to analog input the GC PCB would understand. The Sanwa JLF is digital, each cardinal direction is a ON or OFF state. The 4 potentiometers you see are so BlackHombre can adjust or dial-in the strength of how far the push is in any direction. So hitting up on the JLF is not a hard full push on the analog stick stick data as completely up on the X Axis. So dialing the Pots to 50% would equal a 50% push on a left analog stick. I think TheBlackHombre set his pots for being at 40%. The Shift button is wired up to allow for a full press in any direction,regardless of what the pots are set to. He did a similar set up for the C-stick and broke it down to 4 buttons.

    There is a introductory guide on how to remove analog joysticks and neutralize them. It goes on the same method can be used to turn variable resistors into on-off switches.
    http://www.slagcoin.com/joystick/pcb_wiring.html#PCB_COMPONENTS_MODIFICATION_AND_REMOVAL


    As for the actual logic on the board, I am a little foggy about the details as I don't even know what chips are used. When it came to my own projects and analog to digital conversion I took the easy ways out and just avoided the analog inputs. Like both of my Virtual-On arcade sticks are wired up as digital joysticks taking on digital inputs and setting the game to run off the D-pad and 4 face buttons instead of the analog thumb sticks.

    I am sure Gummo or TheBlackHombre can help you more in this regard.
    “Strong people don't put others down... They lift them up.”
    - Darth Vader, Philanthropist
  • GummoGummo Can We Mod It? Yes, We Can! Joined: Posts: 5,526
    The shift button is actually functioning the other way. When the joystick is moved it registers 100% of that axis. If the shift button is held then it uses the % setting of the pot.

    The chips I used were 4066 switching chips and hex inverters.
    Website: http://www.gummods.com
    Youtube Channel: http://www.youtube.com/gummowned
    Twitter: @Gummowned
    Will be providing my modding services at EVO @ the Madcatz booth!
  • DarksakulDarksakul Your lack of faith disturbs me Joined: Posts: 24,245
    Gummo wrote: »
    The shift button is actually functioning the other way. When the joystick is moved it registers 100% of that axis. If the shift button is held then it uses the % setting of the pot.

    The chips I used were 4066 switching chips and hex inverters.
    So I got it backwards, opps.

    I could never remember what chips was used, I tried searching a guide on SRK and failed to find anything
    “Strong people don't put others down... They lift them up.”
    - Darth Vader, Philanthropist
  • GummoGummo Can We Mod It? Yes, We Can! Joined: Posts: 5,526
    It's no big deal. I just wanted to clarify the details since I was the one who did the mod.

    I don't think I mentioned before the chips used nor why they were used. I meant to post the schematic I drew out , but found out I didn't complete it when I was finished with the mod.
    Website: http://www.gummods.com
    Youtube Channel: http://www.youtube.com/gummowned
    Twitter: @Gummowned
    Will be providing my modding services at EVO @ the Madcatz booth!
  • RedTag14RedTag14 Joined: Posts: 107
    edited January 2016
    Darksakul wrote: »
    To avoid confusing how an analog joysticks compared to a digital joystick I going to go on this side tangent

    Thanks a ton @Darksakul. This was a solid run down of what I needed to have clarified. I learned a little bit of this stuff in a intro to hardware class designed for IT students and your explanation is a thousand times better than anything my professor said. lol
    Gummo wrote: »
    It's no big deal. I just wanted to clarify the details since I was the one who did the mod.

    I don't think I mentioned before the chips used nor why they were used. I meant to post the schematic I drew out , but found out I didn't complete it when I was finished with the mod.

    Thanks for clarifying @Gummo! A schematic would be really, really, really cool as I know I could learn quite a bit from this. I'm genuinely interested in getting into modding in my spare time when I graduate. I understand you're a busy guy though so no worries if a schematic is a no go. It would help me attempt to do this mod myself, but in any case, I've sent you an email if you're able to do this mod again for whatever price you fancy. I'm a visual and kinesthetic learner so getting a point blank look at the wiring, chips, breadboard(s), etc. would be an awesome experience. :3 Please let me know!
  • MentalMantelMentalMantel Joined: Posts: 31
    edited February 2016
    Someone mentioned cutting down the GC controller board. here is this thread. You can cut it down pretty small. Just slightly larger than the main chip from the looks of things (Especially as a stick will not need the rumble)
    http://forums.modretro.com/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=8517

    edit: Clarification
  • RedTag14RedTag14 Joined: Posts: 107
    Someone mentioned cutting down the GC controller board. here is this thread. You can cut it down pretty small. Just slightly larger than the main chip from the looks of things (Especially as a stick will not need the rumble)
    http://forums.modretro.com/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=8517

    edit: Clarification

    Good to know! Curious but would you be able to share how you wired your flight stick to the GC board, @MentalMantel?
  • TheBlackHombreTheBlackHombre Aesthetic Joined: Posts: 1,672
    Side tangent here. I was supposed to have my video done awhile back, but my friend that "said" he'll help me out pretty much went back on his word. So I'll be updating the video very very slowly whenever I drive 60ish miles back to my old town to visit family/friends and have my good friend edit/record video whenever I'm in the area which isn't often. :/
  • MentalMantelMentalMantel Joined: Posts: 31
    edited February 2016
    @RedTag14 It is actually pretty simple. I wired the three outputs of a slide potentiometer to the three inputs on the GC board.
    I just looked up the layout of the board (I think on Slagcoin is where I eventually found this...but I'm not sure, I had to use some google fu). The only slightly tricky part was matching the resistance to the original pots of the controller.
    Since I couldn't find exact resistors that matched I just put a resistor in parallel to the pot. Not really tricky if you know a bit about electronics or you can google a parallel resistance calculator too and it will figure out what you need. You'll have to play a bit to find the center.

    Just do that for both axis and the slide pots will work. Mount them in the housing for the joystick and voila.

    People have been asking on the youtubes for a little more in depth look in how I put it together, which I am in the process of doing since I am rebuilding the joystick to bring it more in line with standard arcade sticks

    I recently got my HDMI Capture Card in so I can start making better videos now
    Post edited by MentalMantel on
  • RedTag14RedTag14 Joined: Posts: 107
    edited February 2016
    Really cool info. Thanks @MentalMantel! Are the slide potentiometers a part of the analog joystick? I know there are some sliders for the GC triggers. I might have other questions about the resistors but I'll do my research before sending you a PM. No pressure on the new build or video responses. Take your time! I'm sure we're all just looking forward to what cool stuff can come about. (:
    Side tangent here. I was supposed to have my video done awhile back, but my friend that "said" he'll help me out pretty much went back on his word. So I'll be updating the video very very slowly whenever I drive 60ish miles back to my old town to visit family/friends and have my good friend edit/record video whenever I'm in the area which isn't often. :/

    Same goes for you bud. No worries (at least for me). Take it easy and looking forward to the vid when it eventually comes out~
  • MentalMantelMentalMantel Joined: Posts: 31
    @RedTag14 No the slide pots were not a part of the joystick. I measured the throw and got a slide pot that was pretty close to it (18mm in my case-the actual throw was closer to 20 but I couldn't find a potentiometer with that length)
  • TheBlackHombreTheBlackHombre Aesthetic Joined: Posts: 1,672
    I haven't posted here lately but I have a very big surprise for you guys coming soon. I may have my analog stick playable soon - using a 3D printed case.

    My friend is currently in the process (and almost done) making a Frankenstein smash stick which is half controller/half stick, I can post the finished result here if you guys are interested.

    I'm currently at a FL regional: Tampa Never Sleeps and I have footage of me playing my pool match against mew2king and there are pictures I'll repost on here that were taken by the photography staff of me and the stick in action.

    I'll try to post the Tampa Never Sleep stuff at the end of the weekend (or whenever the pictures of up) and I'll keep you guys updated with the progress of my analog stick as well.

    I may also end up modifying my current jlf stick as well by getting a plexiglass cut since I'm happy with my final (and currently not being used) button layout.
Sign In or Register to comment.