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  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 9,764
    edited December 2016
    Just FYI, people at low level pick Ana for the same reason they pick Zen or Roadhog: they have good DPS and want to shoot people. Even if your team is also composed of 3-4 DPS and you will have a fucking hard time shooting your Tracer/Genji to keep them alive, and even if you need either luck or godlike aim to sleep dart a flanker that harasses you in a non premade team.
    Personally I don't pick Ana unless I have some tanks and a few good DPS targets for my nanoboost (Genji, Soldier or Reaper). Other healers can do significantly better for their team depending on the two comps.

    Speaking about tanks, we found out recently that a Winston/D.va/Roadhog in 3v3 can be extremely salt inducing for the opponents and beats almost every comp made of 200 HP characters. The only thing that fucks it up real bad is Zen/Mei/Roadhog, because unless you pick the Zen early you can't do shit against 3 self-healing opponents that can freeze and destroy you very fast.
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  • EskillsEskills Joined: Posts: 4,006
    edited December 2016
    How is she detrimental? Rez wins games and her kit isn't broken.

    Yeah she is better suited to defense with the addition of Ana, but to think she's useless or needs a rework is laughable.

    Rework to move her pick rate up in pro play isn't balance. Especially when it would only work if you made her more offensive which would destroy the character diversity for the sake of pro pick rate.

    Bet symmetra stays low in pro play because she's defensive, readily waiting for the "she's still broke/useless crying cause pros don't pick her."
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  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 9,764
    I'm just watching a video about Dreamhack that confirms what I suspected: teammates picking up your hacked health packs with Sombra DOES charge her ult, and not even by a small bit - it's +10% for a big health pack. Sombra's ult to become the next Nanoboost/Blizzard?
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  • Mood4food77Mood4food77 Joined: Posts: 9,669
    Eskills wrote: »
    How is she detrimental? Rez wins games and her kit isn't broken.

    Yeah she is better suited to defense with the addition of Ana, but to think she's useless or needs a rework is laughable.

    Rework to move her pick rate up in pro play isn't balance. Especially when it would only work if you made her more offensive which would destroy the character diversity for the sake of pro pick rate.

    Bet symmetra stays low in pro play because she's defensive, readily waiting for the "she's still broke/useless crying cause pros don't pick her."

    She can't shoot and heal at the same time so many times its a 5v6 while the other healers can shoot and heal. That's all. Yea her rez can save you but the others help more at preventing overwhelming scenarios than she does
  • EskillsEskills Joined: Posts: 4,006
    Her job isn't preventing overwhelming situations, it's recovering from them. That's her niche, that's what she brings to the table. I'm happy all the supports aren't copy paste and each brings something unique. We don't need reworks and buffs to destroy character diversity.

    If they buffed her offensive capabilities another support would fall, she'd rise and we're back at the same point all because of pro pick rate. (Not to mention she'd be broken being able to put out respectable damage while being able to heal, self heal and build ult)
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  • Mood4food77Mood4food77 Joined: Posts: 9,669
    I still think because she is the healer that cant shoot and heal at the same time she should heal the fastest
  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 9,764
    "You will be placed lower than in S2", they said.
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  • jae hoonjae hoon Flames of Justice Joined: Posts: 12,852 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Blizzard always does soft resets
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  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,752 mod
  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 9,764
    Should I start fearing now my upcoming ban for putting down cliff teleporters and using the sitting emote with Symmetra? :sad:
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  • DramatixDramatix Could be better. Joined: Posts: 4,560
    edited December 2016
    About Mercy's offensive power, I think people forget too quickly the surprising amount of damage of her main gun. You better not get too cocky and think you can solo a Mercy with a flanker if she has decent aim.

    Last night, I hacked a Mercy and tried to take her out. Unfortunately, said Mercy had really good aim.

    Sombra has 200 HP.
    Mercy does 20 DMG with her blaster and 40 DMG on headshots (40 x 5 = 200). I literally calculated that in my head as I did.

    The 1-sec regen is nice, but I really wish Mercy had an evasive maneuver similar to McCree (A sidestep, dash, something) instead of her having to either rely on a nearby ally to escape/fly to (IF there's someone around to fly to or protect her) or her pistol when an angry mob is on her ass.
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  • DeathologyDeathology Joined: Posts: 546
    Speaking of mercy, I played with a damage boost only mercy not too long ago. Was waiting on the side to get healed when I had no health left and she just damage boosted me. Had to jump off a cliff and switch to lucio.
  • Amazing FunbagsAmazing Funbags The J-Cup Lover Joined: Posts: 17,874
    Zayra is still a force after her nerf right? I was worried that she was going to be useless after the patch and the D. Va buffs
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  • ReticentlyReticently Joined: Posts: 3,972
    Finally getting into this game. What does a newb really need to know?

    So far Lucio is the character I seem to click the most with, but I get the feeling he's really good in general. Soldier also feels very straight forward, like a traditional FPS character.

    What I'm NOT good with so far are all the characters that feel like they have overly limited mobility.
  • Mood4food77Mood4food77 Joined: Posts: 9,669
    Lucio is the best character in the game. He probably always will be. He is not broken, he offers aoe healing. Keep using him and we all will love you
  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 9,764
    edited December 2016
    Reticently wrote: »
    Finally getting into this game. What does a newb really need to know?

    - Play every character
    - Try every role and try being efficient in every role with at least one hero
    - Learn the counters
    - Learn the maps
    - Never run through a teleporter in your spawn
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  • XthAtGAm3RGuYXXthAtGAm3RGuYX SRK's ResidentSleeper Joined: Posts: 11,897
    Reticently wrote: »
    Finally getting into this game. What does a newb really need to know?

    - Play every character
    - Try every role and try being efficient in every role with at least one hero
    - Learn the counters
    - Learn the maps
    - Never run through a teleporter in your spawn

    -learn where the health packs are because sometimes your Lucio spends too much time speed boosting
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  • highluluhighlulu Joined: Posts: 3,836
    edited December 2016
    omfg the sheer amount of salt on twitter right now from low SR placers right now, it's just too glorious. obviously they are just stuck in the wrong rank and getting bad teammates... LOL
    So apparently placements mean fuck all this season. It's super based on season 2 high and everything else is basically moot.

    https://clips.twitch.tv/embed?clip=iddqdow/BrightDogBuddhaBar

    all reporting seems to indicate that it's based on your S2 final rank and not your high. tons of people who placed 2k or so last season but fell down into the 1k range are placing right in that 1k range like they should, no more early season games with retarded teams because a SR 900 player is in a game with SR 3,000 players.
    "You will be placed lower than in S2", they said.

    considering the outcry on twitter from all the people placing in the 1k range i would say that most players DID place lower than in s2. s2 saw 90% of the player base start within 500 to 1k points of each other and was a complete clusterfuck for a long time because of it. so this season the bronze players are down in bronze and the masters are up in masters... seems to be working as intended
    Zayra is still a force after her nerf right? I was worried that she was going to be useless after the patch and the D. Va buffs

    zarya's nerf was only a nerf on paper, in reality with them fixing the way her primary fire calculates damage she was buffed imo.

    Reticently wrote: »
    Finally getting into this game. What does a newb really need to know?

    So far Lucio is the character I seem to click the most with, but I get the feeling he's really good in general. Soldier also feels very straight forward, like a traditional FPS character.

    What I'm NOT good with so far are all the characters that feel like they have overly limited mobility.

    from one lucio player to another, speed boost is the single best ability in the entire game and learning how to use it properly will take you extremely far.
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  • DramatixDramatix Could be better. Joined: Posts: 4,560
    Reticently wrote: »
    Finally getting into this game. What does a newb really need to know?

    - Play every character
    - Try every role and try being efficient in every role with at least one hero
    - Learn the counters
    - Learn the maps
    - Never run through a teleporter in your spawn

    Adding to that, if your character can quickly get to the point, don't use the teleporter and leave it for slower characters (I usually don't use it after putting it up unless the point is contested to near loss).
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  • just5moreminutesjust5moreminutes Eagle will return Joined: Posts: 7,945
    Eskills wrote: »
    \(Not to mention she'd be broken being able to put out respectable damage while being able to heal, self heal and build ult)

    You do realize that's what Zenyatta and Ana already do, right?
  • EskillsEskills Joined: Posts: 4,006
    edited December 2016
    Eskills wrote: »
    \(Not to mention she'd be broken being able to put out respectable damage while being able to heal, self heal and build ult)

    You do realize that's what Zenyatta and Ana already do, right?

    She has a Rez, big difference friend. You do realize their kits don't function the same way, right?

    Zens can be stopped by Ana grenade and nano targets can be slept, frozen or cc'd. You don't kill mercy Rez is popped and you have to hold it. If she had damage comparable to Ana or zen on top of her mobility, healing, and self healing she'd be broken. Fact.

    But if you want to keep looking at pro play and what you see on low level console play for balance, what evs.
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  • MechWarriorMechWarrior Joined: Posts: 5,718
    mGeirwa.png

    tfw Overwatch has been a massive success so far
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  • abkalldayabkallday Joined: Posts: 2,218
    Ana is so fun to play as
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  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,752 mod
    Why wouldn't you look at where the game is most optimized for its balance. If Mercy isn't being picked, it's because she's lacking something compared to the other 3.
  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 9,764
    twigster wrote: »
    Reticently wrote: »
    Finally getting into this game. What does a newb really need to know?

    - Play every character except Hanzo

    FIFY.

    Like you will actually have the chance to pick Hanzo.
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  • EskillsEskills Joined: Posts: 4,006
    edited December 2016
    d3v wrote: »
    Why wouldn't you look at where the game is most optimized for its balance. If Mercy isn't being picked, it's because she's lacking something compared to the other 3.

    So Winston being lower than the other tanks makes him bad or needs a rework? When zen dropped in favor of Ana/Lucio did he become useless or needing a rework? Does mcree suck cause he dropped to D in favor of solider?

    No.

    Simply looking at usage for balance is foolish. You're not looking at the play styles being used, the favored map picks, map bans, etc. There multitudes of other factors that should be looked for balance. Pro pick rate isn't one of them.

    You'd think after the Korean ass whooping at worlds where they damn near used every hero(low pick rate ones like Winston etc.) we'd stop with shit convos bout balance looking at these usage list.

    Clearly I was wrong.
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  • Mood4food77Mood4food77 Joined: Posts: 9,669
    Mercy wasnt used at all tho
  • EskillsEskills Joined: Posts: 4,006
    edited December 2016
    The point is pro pick rate isn't factor for balance.

    If we're really going keep arguing that mercy out of the entire cast is useless and needs a rework because of usage at these two tournies I'm at a loss for words.
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  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,752 mod
  • just5moreminutesjust5moreminutes Eagle will return Joined: Posts: 7,945
    Eskills wrote: »
    The point is pro pick rate isn't factor for balance.

    If we're really going keep arguing that mercy out of the entire cast is useless and needs a rework because of usage at these two tournies I'm at a loss for words.

    Plenty of heroes are bad, but have something going for them. Junkrat and Torbjorn do SOMETHING another hero can't (or not nearly as well), but are currently too niche and out of the meta. Symmetra needed a rework because was forced to play passively, which meant she could only be broken one way or another. Mercy isn't as egregious of an offender, but I don't see how she could ever be on even footing with Ana short of nerfing/buffing one of them by an obscene amount.

    And again, I'm not even saying that Mercy is useless, much like old Symmetra wasn't truly useless. But I don't think Blizzard wants a hero who is inferior to someone else at the one thing she's meant to do, and only appears as optional support for Pharah on the few maps Pharah is played. I've been saying Blizzard needs to take a hard look at Mercy for weeks now, and the evolution of the meta is just the manifestation of what I'm talking about. You've basically taken the attitude that almost any hero changes are bad with one of the following trains of logic:
    -X isn't useless, they're just niche! (old Symmetra)
    -Some heroes are only meant for low-level play and aren't worth buffing (Bastion, Torbjorn)
    -Pro usage doesn't matter, people at lower levels are fine with the hero (Mercy)

    So tell me, what does it take for a hero to actually be bad? You keep saying things are fine at lower level, but we're talking about the place where triple DPS is common and people use Roadhog for a main tank. Pro play has a level of communication that represents what Blizzard actually intended for the game, in an environment where the only motive for picking anyone is increasing the chance of winning. It is the game at its purest form.
  • CHIEfyCHIEfy Joined: Posts: 1,125
    ^Preach.

    Side note, I know I'm not the best shot, but McCree's damage drop off bothers me to no end. Soldier has better mobility to close in on people so the drop off doesn't even matter. Plus I can play healer with him part-time.

    On the topic of GOTY, this is the last game of the nominees that I would give this too. Nuff said.
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  • EskillsEskills Joined: Posts: 4,006
    edited December 2016
    I don't use low level as an example or evidence of anything other than the fact Blizz won't buff torb/bastion or the amount a hero is played. Low level is a non factor, especially since it's almost always solo que.

    My observations of balance come from master and grandmaster, actually playing with and against teams. I don't consider them low level, do you? I see every character played in some capacity and every character can function with a team.

    Now addressing why pro pick rate doesn't matter with these usage list. It cherry picks it's statistics. The one you showed is from "2" tournaments. How can you use that for a basis to prove anything when they are so damn small? Just a weak ago she was in D then 2 weeks ago over half the cast was in F. You can't look at these list as gospel when they use small statistic pools that never show the entirety of pro play actually happening.

    On top of that, usage doesn't fully explain why the characters are where they are. You want to talk about purest form what Blizz wants but forget they wanted counters to characters and teams switching to handle a situation, not buff and rework so they are ready to handle everything. Tank heavy comps, majority assault or koth, etc change usage. If a lot teams are picking tank comps but another support(i.e. Zen) counters them and gets the pick, how does that make the other obsolete? Common sense says it's simply a situation not meant for that character. Of course you bring up even footing talk. Guess its better to balance everyone to level playing field so there are no counters? That doesn't exist in any competitive gaming.

    For a hero to be bad their kit cant work in any capacity or team comp. The only hero that's truly been bad was symmetra.
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  • just5moreminutesjust5moreminutes Eagle will return Joined: Posts: 7,945
    This isn't about counters. The one thing Mercy exists to do, heal so much that you have to kill her first, is done better in many situations by Ana. I can't think of a team comp where you would have Mercy over Ana, or even with Ana. Part of it is the limited number of supports you can get away with per team (especially with Lucio being an auto-lock), but we're even seeing Pharah teams without a Mercy now.

    Much like Symmetra, the only reason you would ever take Mercy is her ult to prevent situations where half your team gets wiped and you're defending at a numbers disadvantage. Until then, you're basically playing a worse Ana, which makes taking those horrible losses more likely. While Mercy is healing, Ana is healing even more and incapacitating people and preventing tanks from being healed and sniping.

    At this point, Mercy's become a lot like Bastion; she does one thing really really well, but is completely reliant on her team to cover her and offers almost no utility to the team beyond that one thing which others can do without being so fragile.
  • CipherCipher Catchphraser Joined: Posts: 1,819
    I have a friend whos a supportmain and he preferes Mercy over Ana for a lot of reasons.
    The thing with viability talk is basicly that we talk about the highest level, but don't play on the highest level.

    Soldier is good now and I saw more than once people calling him op now, while I don't think he is op,but in a realy good spot.
    (for me personalyit's awesome,because I'm 200% more effective with him now)
    If you soloqueu like me, you have to be ready to get the worst team of all time every god damn match. I often get teamcomps with 3 Snipers on offence in Platniumleague(yes I finaly made it out of Gold,shortly before the season ended) and there are sometimes situations were that shit works.
    Would it work at the highest level? Hell no, there would be a Winston/D.Va shredding the Snipers like there is no tomorrow. Will it work in regular comp? There is a chance that it will work.
    I even maneged it once to win as solotank with 1 support and 4dps against the Tankmeta of a full team of 6 and my whole team was randoms.

    The golden rule for comp is simplay to play your best hero.
    Need a dps? Pick your best dps.
    Need a tank? Pick your best tank.
    Need a support? Pick your best support or Lucio, since everyone and everything can play Lucio.
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  • EskillsEskills Joined: Posts: 4,006
    edited December 2016
    It doesn't matter if Ana brings more damage and healing, she doesn't bring the threat of a team fight being turned around with Rez when you're playing defense. They aren't used for the same thing. No other support does what she can do.

    You may not see a use for mercy, but that's not saying much since you don't play with a coordinated team.

    Shame this threads keeps going back to the same circle jerk with usage tiers and viability. Mercy is like bastion now? Smh
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  • p.m novaroad pilotp.m novaroad pilot Joined: Posts: 2,584
    I'm indifferent about this but you can't insult people and say they don't use a coordinated team. But complain that they are citing pro play in their analysis for mercy
    That's just iffy