Blizzard Overwatch

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  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 9,915
    edited December 2016
    I have two things to say:
    - the argument that Mercy brings nothing more to the game compared to other healers is plainly wrong. Her rez is a totally unique ability that nobody else has and grants her a focus 100% of the time. Granted her streams work exactly like Zen's orbs at a shorter range (with the right click being worse than discord orb), so if they wanna change anything they might add some more benefit to that.
    - usage at pro level will ALWAYS favour some characters compared to others because of the nature of the competition. That is true for fighting games and that is even more true for a team game where synergies between heroes are so important. When everyone tries to go for THE best comp to win there are inevitably many heroes that will be left behind. The winning comps will force everyone else to adapt to that - if they're running triple or quadruple tank you WILL play Zen, no matter how strong nanoboost is (or was).

    If we really want to buff Mercy again I think there are two things they can change. First, as I said her main abilities need some added benefit to them - I like the idea of her being able to remove debuffs, either with the right click or an E. Right now there's no hero that can do that so it will make her totally unique (unless they're planning to give that ability to another new support). Second, now that all ultimate costs have been decreased and people will not build a new ult at every team fight they can make her ult charge slightly faster so that she's almost sure to have it for the next one. This ensures that if they don't kill the Mercy preemptively they might waste every ult for nothing.
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  • HollowbladeHollowblade Joined: Posts: 1,594
    I think Eskills is seeing it in a better pov. At higher levels ana does outheal mercy but your aim needs to be on point. Also ana is useless if your team has no good ulti targets or is too small (genji,tracer maybe sombra.) mercy as stated is great if you feel your team cant quite hold the point. A rez is totally devastating and can be really hard to shutdown. A nanoboost is fairly easy to shutdown if your comp is right. All heros are situational, there are times where i feel evem lucio is sorta useless. Many times where zen just doesnt work. The pros use tHat which is most effective and consistent, ana when aim is great is more efficient. I always felt on console soldier was better 90% of the time since 99% of mccrees cant constantly dome everything yet everyone wanted to be pro meta and spammed the shit outta mccrre many times providing very little dps since they hit 1 out of 6 shots.. Does that make mccree bad? Or did thst make soldier actually better? Neither, soldier wasnt used due to his spread lowering his dps at high level. However on console if you can land 1 out of every 3-4 shots is better than landing 0 with mccree even tho mccree was actually the better hero pre soldier buff.

    Mercy is awesome for players who cant aim, she gets her job done. Just cus she doesnt get picked at high level doesnt mean shes at all bad. She just doesnt fit THAT playstyle and meta.playing in diamond/master i always see mercys and many times they win the game for their teams with a clutch rez or some good foot work staying alive. She is far from the worst character. No changes really needed tbh.
  • ES_CurseES_Curse PRAISE BE Joined: Posts: 8,197
    Rez is good, no doubt, but placing that much stock in being one of the last people on the team alive is a bad idea when you have a giant target on your head. Your team could babysit you the whole match hoping for a Rez, or you could pick any other healer and not be a liability.
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  • EskillsEskills Joined: Posts: 4,104
    edited December 2016
    I'm indifferent about this but you can't insult people and say they don't use a coordinated team. But complain that they are citing pro play in their analysis for mercy
    That's just iffy

    I don't consider that an insult. How can you cite what you see and it have any validity when you don't play in way that can optimize any hero?

    Citing pro play is fine except If you're just looking at the usage from two tournaments as evidence that a character needs a rework, again I'm dumbfounded. It's not a month of pro tournies or even a week of them, just two. Even when they are a week or more they usually favor a region. I'd like to see overbuff do only Korean or other regions besides us/eu for a month. No character would be in F tier, easily.

    Also every support has a target on their head. If you're in the position to kill any of them, you will and they get babysat and protected by their team. Dead supports = lost team fight
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  • DramatixDramatix Could be better. Joined: Posts: 4,584
    Eskills wrote: »
    The point is pro pick rate isn't factor for balance.

    If we're really going keep arguing that mercy out of the entire cast is useless and needs a rework because of usage at these two tournies I'm at a loss for words.

    Folks calling Mercy useless until it's time for those heals and revives haha.
    But seriously, I have played with some "useless" Mercy according to my teammates. (I'm also one of those useless Mercy players imo)
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  • Mood4food77Mood4food77 Joined: Posts: 9,794
    Eskills wrote: »
    I'm indifferent about this but you can't insult people and say they don't use a coordinated team. But complain that they are citing pro play in their analysis for mercy
    That's just iffy

    I don't consider that an insult. How can you cite what you see and it have any validity when you don't play in way that can optimize any hero?

    Citing pro play is fine except If you're just looking at the usage from two tournaments as evidence that a character needs a rework, again I'm dumbfounded. It's not a month of pro tournies or even a week of them, just two. Even when they are a week or more they usually favor a region. I'd like to see overbuff do only Korean or other regions besides us/eu for a month. No character would be in F tier, easily.

    Also every support has a target on their head. If you're in the position to kill any of them, you will and they get babysat and protected by their team. Dead supports = lost team fight

    It's more than 2 months though, she's been amongst the lowest used for close to 6 months now and in the past 2 months she has had no usage. That's more of a trend if anything
  • EskillsEskills Joined: Posts: 4,104
    edited December 2016
    Eskills wrote: »
    I'm indifferent about this but you can't insult people and say they don't use a coordinated team. But complain that they are citing pro play in their analysis for mercy
    That's just iffy

    I don't consider that an insult. How can you cite what you see and it have any validity when you don't play in way that can optimize any hero?

    Citing pro play is fine except If you're just looking at the usage from two tournaments as evidence that a character needs a rework, again I'm dumbfounded. It's not a month of pro tournies or even a week of them, just two. Even when they are a week or more they usually favor a region. I'd like to see overbuff do only Korean or other regions besides us/eu for a month. No character would be in F tier, easily.

    Also every support has a target on their head. If you're in the position to kill any of them, you will and they get babysat and protected by their team. Dead supports = lost team fight

    It's more than 2 months though, she's been amongst the lowest used for close to 6 months now and in the past 2 months she has had no usage. That's more of a trend if anything

    Show me the list where mercy has no usage.

    Her seeing less play as the meta moves towards tanks and kill pressure makes sense. Doesn't mean she needs a rework.

    But don't blatantly make shit up. Show evidence where she is no play whatsoever for two months.
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  • Mood4food77Mood4food77 Joined: Posts: 9,794
    Didnt someone just post it?
  • EskillsEskills Joined: Posts: 4,104
    edited December 2016
    Didnt someone just post it?

    Dude that list is from two tournaments like I have been saying. Just 2. Only 2. Data collected from TWO tournaments.
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  • p.m novaroad pilotp.m novaroad pilot Joined: Posts: 2,606
    Eskills wrote: »
    I'm indifferent about this but you can't insult people and say they don't use a coordinated team. But complain that they are citing pro play in their analysis for mercy
    That's just iffy

    I don't consider that an insult. How can you cite what you see and it have any validity when you don't play in way that can optimize any hero?

    Citing pro play is fine except If you're just looking at the usage from two tournaments as evidence that a character needs a rework, again I'm dumbfounded. It's not a month of pro tournies or even a week of them, just two. Even when they are a week or more they usually favor a region. I'd like to see overbuff do only Korean or other regions besides us/eu for a month. No character would be in F tier, easily.

    Also every support has a target on their head. If you're in the position to kill any of them, you will and they get babysat and protected by their team. Dead supports = lost team fight

    But it assumes that they dont play on good teams themselves
    your saying that your the only person that plays on good teams
    just seems eh...
    mind you i do think that mercy has her uses in terms of more intimate support so i cant summarily dismiss her as being bad
    ana doesn't have her damage boost and doesn't have the mobility she has in terms of following the person you are healing.

    mind you i dont think any character should be used for one nitch

    you want mercy to be useful in the field beyond rez because if you are only using her for that then then shes not a good character
    the archtype for symmetra proved that theory
    "oh shes useful for teleport"

    complete overhaul of character months later
  • EskillsEskills Joined: Posts: 4,104
    edited December 2016
    I never said I'm the only one that plays on good teams. He himself has said he plays low level console solo que...

    Mercy is not in the same place as pre patch symmetra. Only symmetra teleporter was good. Everything in mercys kit is good.

    Base argument was after the showing in these two specific tournaments mercy is useless and needs a rework. I'm sorry but that's completely fucking false and a misuse of the info in the list.

    Also since you're posting again, if symmetra stays F tier despite her rework is another needed?
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  • ReticentlyReticently Joined: Posts: 4,105
    Instead of changing Mercy too much, maybe they should look at introducing maps/modes that would do more to favor her mobility advantage over Ana?
  • JoshkazJoshkaz Princess Luna is my Waifu Joined: Posts: 15,340
    Mercy is fine you silly geese.

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  • p.m novaroad pilotp.m novaroad pilot Joined: Posts: 2,606
    Eskills wrote: »
    I never said I'm the only one that plays on good teams. He himself has said he plays low level console solo que...

    Mercy is not in the same place as pre patch symmetra. Only symmetra teleporter was good. Everything in mercys kit is good.

    Base argument was after the showing in these two specific tournaments mercy is useless and needs a rework. I'm sorry but that's completely fucking false and a misuse of the info in the list.

    Also since you're posting again, if symmetra stays F tier despite her rework is another needed?

    no i agree mercy has things she does that the other healers dont so she still should be useful I still think that a mercy constantly following you is more effective then a ana a constant stream of healing/damage boost plus mobility still make her a good asset to have in the back pocket idc that ana shooting heals more per second she cant keep up with the character if they decide to alternate their straits and or they go into another area. out of vision of the her sight.

    as for symmetra im not sure it depends on ow powerful her new shield is. when i was bitching about damage and turret cooldown you had a bunch of people talking about changes to the photon shield. if she still sucks shit then they need to put for focus on her offensive attributes... wish the patch would come out for consoles already
  • EskillsEskills Joined: Posts: 4,104
    See that's what I don't get.

    The game is super offensive already, we don't need more offense.

    Definitely one of the reasons I'm so against changes. They always steam from A does no damage, B needs more damage, C doesn't do damage fast enough, etc.

    Don't think peeps realize that their want for balance will not be solved with more offensive pressure. If anything the more offensive options that get added are having the opposite effect.

    Want balance fine, but I think people aren't looking at it the right way. We need defensive options that make a difference and aren't too set up heavy. More maps and game types would likely help to.
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  • angelpalmangelpalm Stop enjoying things Joined: Posts: 24,350 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Fuck that more offense bitches!!!

    But seriously, how fast can mercy switch to and from her gun? I feel like if they slightly increase the damage on that and let her switch off quicker to she can be flying and shooting in the air that would make her pretty sick. Also someone said D.VA got buffed again? That is hilarious if it is true. Can't wait to put teleporters in front of moving cars.
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  • XthAtGAm3RGuYXXthAtGAm3RGuYX SRK's ResidentSleeper Joined: Posts: 11,930
    If Mercy had higher damage people would pick her for a DPS slot. The blaster already does a ton of damage
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  • p.m novaroad pilotp.m novaroad pilot Joined: Posts: 2,606
    Eskills wrote: »
    See that's what I don't get.

    The game is super offensive already, we don't need more offense.

    Definitely one of the reasons I'm so against changes. They always steam from A does no damage, B needs more damage, C doesn't do damage fast enough, etc.

    Don't think peeps realize that their want for balance will not be solved with more offensive pressure. If anything the more offensive options that get added are having the opposite effect.

    Want balance fine, but I think people aren't looking at it the right way. We need defensive options that make a difference and aren't too set up heavy. More maps and game types would likely help to.

    I said it depends on her shield capabilities.
    It could look cool now and then in mere weeks that shit could be dispatched easily.

    I like defensive options as well but you have to make them good.

    Other then disengaging, healing and meis self preservation the defensive options mostly suck. There's a reason offensive heroes were used for defense on a lot of maps.

    That's also attributed to the fact that mobility for characters is lacking as well.

    I'm only saying this to say that for all intents and purposes I mostly agree with you I just think that blizzard needs
    to get even more creative. Matches look interesting in the pros but that's more so to Korean dominance that shows/forces creativity I.e Winston destroying everyone. It's not because the design is that sharp.

    Make more defensive options but make
    them good that way balance will gradually help itself.
  • XthAtGAm3RGuYXXthAtGAm3RGuYX SRK's ResidentSleeper Joined: Posts: 11,930
    Btw Mercy is the most high priority of all healers. An entire team will ignore any other healer as long as Mercy is still in play. You really gotta protect the bitch.
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  • XhominidXhominid Knight of Dizzy Joined: Posts: 552
    angelpalm wrote: »
    Real talk I zero in on every healer. I never understood how these people kill everyone around mercy and then just let her ult.

    Story of my life most of the time...

    But I got into something that's been bugging me because I thought it was an obvious answer but I really couldn't find one.

    Does Soldier 76 even have a counter? Even a soft one by chance? Because the only one is Genji and that's if Genji can deflect his Helix Rockets at him but otherwise, I'm drawing blanks.
  • ES_CurseES_Curse PRAISE BE Joined: Posts: 8,197
    Xhominid wrote: »
    angelpalm wrote: »
    Real talk I zero in on every healer. I never understood how these people kill everyone around mercy and then just let her ult.

    Story of my life most of the time...

    But I got into something that's been bugging me because I thought it was an obvious answer but I really couldn't find one.

    Does Soldier 76 even have a counter? Even a soft one by chance? Because the only one is Genji and that's if Genji can deflect his Helix Rockets at him but otherwise, I'm drawing blanks.

    Realistically? No hard counters because his kit is so general. That said, any hero who is really dominant at a specific range/situation can leverage that against him. Mei, Roadhog, and Reaper can make sure he dies up close and have the tools to avoid dying themselves. Widowmaker and Hanzo just need a good headshot since he only has 200 HP and no special mobility/shield options. Tanks in general are not advised as Helix + headshots let him melt even D.Va, but blocking his ult is pretty good.

    The most important thing I can say about fighting him is not to get into a war of attrition. Soldier is one of the few DPS options with self-healing, so going back and forth with him is a very bad idea.
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  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 9,915
    edited December 2016
    Soldier's counters are everyone who can manage to get close to him and either flank him or tank, because his gun is much are much more reliable at a mid-far range than at close one (where McCree wrecks everyone) and unless he gets a clear shot of helix rockets he will have a hard time against a Tracer blinking around him. Winston can give him a hard time too if he gets a jump on him and he's a favorite target for Roadhog's hook.
    Soldier is one of the few DPS options with self-healing

    You mean other than Tracer, Reaper, Sombra and Roadhog?
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  • ES_CurseES_Curse PRAISE BE Joined: Posts: 8,197
    Soldier's counters are everyone who can manage to get close to him and either flank him or tank, because his gun is much are much more reliable at a mid-far range than at close one (where McCree wrecks everyone) and unless he gets a clear shot of helix rockets he will have a hard time against a Tracer blinking around him. Winston can give him a hard time too if he gets a jump on him and he's a favorite target for Roadhog's hook.
    Soldier is one of the few DPS options with self-healing

    You mean other than Tracer, Reaper, Sombra and Roadhog?

    For the purposes of an extended fight, yes. Sombra needs to play around health packs, Tracer's is more of a "Second Wind", and Reaper has to get a kill to heal in the first place. Roadhog can definitely keep up in extended fights, albeit his heal leaves him very vulnerable.
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  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 9,915
    Reaper doesn't need to kill, he gets an orb for every enemy slain by your team, and he's more tanky than the other offense DPS anyway. Tracer's recall has less CD than biotic field and can heal all damage instantly on top of removing debuffs.
    The only true advantage of biotic field is that it can heal all allies around him, which allows him to play a support role on top of being a DPS. But you can argue that Sombra does that too.
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  • XthAtGAm3RGuYXXthAtGAm3RGuYX SRK's ResidentSleeper Joined: Posts: 11,930
    Med packs are usually away from firefight areas, requiring people to go away from the team to heal on Sombras health packs. Soldier can drop a field anywhere he wants thatll heal up 200 HP which is great in a pinch.

    You're fighting a 2v2 on a point because the other 8 players are either all dead or on the way from spawn. You've both taken damage. The other guy is a soldier. Would you rather have a soldier drop you a 200 health boost, or have a Sombra tell you to go get a health pack?

    Tracer doesn't recover all health. She recovers any damage taken in the past 3 seconds. So if you wait too long you can wind up with a funky number like 112HP or something.

    Reapers orbs are almost always in a combat area where you have to wraith form to collect then or you taken damage in the process.

    Lets not act like Soldier doesn't have the best healing option in the game for not being a support.
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  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 9,915
    I wasn't talking about how good his heal is. I was talking about whether he's the only DPS with self-heal or not.
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  • DramatixDramatix Could be better. Joined: Posts: 4,584
    I remain from using terms such as "broken", "cheap" or "OP" because I believe every character and tactic have counters, but Soldier...dude can sprint in and out of combat, flank, retreat to self-heal, and has a considerable amount of damage. Adding to that, his ultimate doesn't really require aiming and can lock onto multiple targets (though granted all you have to do is hide). He's a pretty strong character, though I can't call him braindead because I use D.Va (just hold down the shoot button and spray for your life).

    Constant losses with friends have made us rather tilted (lately it's just snapping at randoms or each other). I'm trying to determine what I'm doing wrong (other than becoming overzealous offensively with the wrong characters or targeting the wrong ones as a Tank, or just not being cautious or staying out of sight as Mercy or in general) even though 90% of the time, I'm healing as Mercy or Ana, setting up turrets and teleporters as Symmetra on the point (depending on the map and point), attempting to flank or take out squishes as Winston or D.Va and self-destructing to clear some space as the latter.

    As for my teammates, one will goes on his own constantly and make himself a target as Pharah and then complains about not having backup or being taken by everyone constantly. It's a genuine complaint, but if I constantly telling him to fall back for a bit so I can fly up and heal him and doesn't, I don't know what to do other than to take that risk and jump in the fight (which is usually). As the primary support player, I don't think I'm doing much or at all aside from constantly healing and damage/nano boosting.
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  • EskillsEskills Joined: Posts: 4,104
    I feel the only support that can carry bad teammates is Zenyatta. The others require team to be at the very least competent in the role they are performing.

    Don't try to fix bad habits or argue mid match. Before you load into the que discuss problem habits, the type of Strats/team comps you'll use, and the proficiencies of each player with their mains/secondaries.

    Communication is everything.
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  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 9,915
    You should have no issue in healing a Pharah with either Ana (if she's an easy target for your opponents she should be an even easier target for you) or Mercy (you should follow her in the sky as much as possible) though. If you can't support her consistently with those healers you might consider to pick Zen instead, since putting the orb on her is much easier.
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  • EskillsEskills Joined: Posts: 4,104
    edited December 2016
    Seriously consider learning Zen and put the team on your back.

    Also consider that while you may like playing support try switching it up. Put them dps pants on and let someone else heal. While my main and second are Zen/Hanzo, I can switch Widow, mcree and Soldier if needed. Also its almost always the dps that hold a team back.
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  • DramatixDramatix Could be better. Joined: Posts: 4,584
    edited December 2016
    For the majority of the time, I don't have trouble healing Pharah as either Ana or Mercy (and with the latter I instantly latch on to a Pharah), and I occassionally use Zen (if anything, I'm trying to get in more hours with him and Ana to improve). It's that in solo que when I'm not playing with friends, of course no one wants to be the healer (though in QP no one gives any fucks at all) and I don't want to lose, so I take it upon myself to be the healer. Otherwise, with friends, offensively I'm either Sombra or D.Va (because I am abysmal at using McCree sadly). I haven't used Tracer as much as well (if she counts as DPS) since I've picked up Sombra as well. Haven't used Widowmaker in a while now, but I'll definitely consider using Zen for a while now.

    We communicate but it seems we're more effective when we have the whole squad together. Sometimes it's trying to cooperate and follow up with the other 2-3 randoms who are either not doing jack shit or actually doing something right. I'm guilty of dying a few times whether it's not being protected or watchful for my surroundings, and I'll let my team know I'm rushing back to the point. However, I'll have one of them go off like, "Where's the team? Where are my heals?", and either I or some of us are like, "I/We died". I'll also admit in solo que, I'm playing the blame game, but only because there are some moments where some players are genuinely retarded.
    Post edited by Dramatix on
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  • ES_CurseES_Curse PRAISE BE Joined: Posts: 8,197
    If they're that worried about not getting healed, tell them to pick Soldier/Mei/Roadhog and take matters into their own hands.

    As for QP, one of the OW discussion channels I watch made a really good point about picking characters in QP. If the team won't cooperate, you can't force the 6-stack meta onto them. If you're stuck with Junkrat and Hanzo on attack, there's no way you'll get a conventional strategy to work. What you can do instead is find people using voice chat to coordinate with and select heroes that synergize easily with the team you're stuck with. Say we're playing QP any your teammates are Hanzo, Junkrat*, Soldier, Zarya*, and Lucio* (players with a * have mics). Your first instinct might be to pick a healer, and that's not actually a bad idea. But keep in mind that you're missing either a main tank or main healer either way, so you can't play like normal. Looking at the comp, Winston would actually be really good because you know the Zarya and Lucio will be willing to coordinate closely with you. Winston provides a good distraction to give Soldier time to work, and he is great at following up on Hanzo/Junkrat's damage. If your teammates are being idiots and poking at the CP1 choke, Winston can drop a barrier and provide your team a chance to slip in.

    In fact, let's say you suck with Winston and/or do not want to play him. The problems still remain, but think about a different way to solve them. The team lacks a mobile flanker, so your DPS heroes will just be fighting from a predictable angle that D.Va/Reinhardt can easily negate. If you go Tracer, you have a flanker who Zarya can shield for easy charge, benefits from Lucio, and has some self-healing for tight situations. If the enemy is fighting a shielded Tracer coming from the left, they aren't fighting the 3 DPS heroes pumping damage from the right, so either way they're going to eat damage.
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  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 9,915
    Using the mic in QP? Having an actual strategy in QP? Lmao. If the comp is retarded (like it mostly is) I'll pick Symmetra or Torbjörn, then switch to counter whatever obnoxious opponent I'm fighting.
    QP allows you at best to make a general experience of team comps and counters, but let's not push things too far.
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  • angelpalmangelpalm Stop enjoying things Joined: Posts: 24,350 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    What you do is place teleporters on ledges and watch as your worthless teammates fall to their death. That's how you play QP. Or you icewall your teammates in ways that make them die hilariously.
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    Crapcom Big foot Sex simulator V - Pc muscle mod edition: That dude that slaps his ass.
    Aggressors of Koliseum Kombat: Kisarah
    Rapelay: Kimura
    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/19/opinion/alt-right-white-supremacy-undercover.html?smid=tw-share
    http://helloracist.com/
  • ES_CurseES_Curse PRAISE BE Joined: Posts: 8,197
    All you "fuck Quick Play" types really need to calm down. Believe it or not, not everyone can pull a 6-stack for Ranked out of their ass every time they want to play Overwatch. Sometimes you just want to practice your aim, decision making, and game sense in between those sessions. If faced with a choice of solo queing in Ranked, Quick Play, or jumping to some game I'm not as interested in playing, I'll pick QP every time. Sometimes you even meet chill folks who make good Ranked teammates.
    formerly just5moreminutes. I guess the clock ran out.
  • angelpalmangelpalm Stop enjoying things Joined: Posts: 24,350 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Lol too be honest I have only played ranked twice with terrible people and from all the moaning from the scrubs here it REALLY doesn't seem that much different from QP so when they say all that shit they just sound dumb as shit. Then again most of those people play on pc with their clan mates from other games so it's probably easy as fuck to always have people to go in with.

    Mains:
    Blazpoo -Continual Shit: Tiddy Witch
    Crapcom Big foot Sex simulator V - Pc muscle mod edition: That dude that slaps his ass.
    Aggressors of Koliseum Kombat: Kisarah
    Rapelay: Kimura
    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/19/opinion/alt-right-white-supremacy-undercover.html?smid=tw-share
    http://helloracist.com/