Blizzard Overwatch

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  • angelpalmangelpalm Stop enjoying things Joined: Posts: 24,455 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    I literally no zero about any of the characters besides that random ass speech that winston gives at the start of the game. Oh and that bastion hates trees. I guess there is a bunch of videos about the characters backgrounds but I haven't watched any of them with the exception of the bastion one I guess?
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  • SkullboySkullboy Drinking With Skeletons. Joined: Posts: 12,459
    Yeah, there's actually a surprising amount of story behind everyone. The game itself just fails to explain most of it.

    Speaking of which, It's amazing how many different character interactions you can hear in the spawn room before a match, lol. I didn't know Roadhog and Junkrat had one until a few days ago, for instance. Widowmaker and Ana's dialogue is hilarious.
    Widowmaker: "You were once a legend, but what are you now? Just a shell of a woman."

    Ana: "I take it you don't want my autograph, then."

    :rofl:
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  • Mood4food77Mood4food77 Joined: Posts: 9,876
    Lucio: "Hey winston, how's it hanging?"
    Winston: "Oh you know, pretty swell. Just found so- oh...i get it"
  • CDB2CDB2 Joined: Posts: 3,280


    THICC

    The Lord's work Funbags!!
    Keep doing it!! XD

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  • ES_CurseES_Curse Get ready for emanci-PAIN SON Joined: Posts: 8,346
    Odd thought: Doesn't Roadhog's combo damage cap around 280 or something? If you were to give Mei or Reaper an extra 75 health through Torb or Sym's abilities, they would survive long enough from a hook to Wraith/Block instead of dying. Thoughts?
    formerly just5moreminutes. I guess the clock ran out.
  • Mood4food77Mood4food77 Joined: Posts: 9,876
    edited December 2016
    Odd thought: Doesn't Roadhog's combo damage cap around 280 or something? If you were to give Mei or Reaper an extra 75 health through Torb or Sym's abilities, they would survive long enough from a hook to Wraith/Block instead of dying. Thoughts?

    Oh i thought this was a buff

    Seems like it would work
  • XthAtGAm3RGuYXXthAtGAm3RGuYX SRK's ResidentSleeper Joined: Posts: 11,951
    Odd thought: Doesn't Roadhog's combo damage cap around 280 or something? If you were to give Mei or Reaper an extra 75 health through Torb or Sym's abilities, they would survive long enough from a hook to Wraith/Block instead of dying. Thoughts?

    If you do the correct combo of shoot>hook>shoot>melee, you land every single pellet as a body shot, and the enemy doesn't have armor in their health bar, you will do 510 damage.
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  • ES_CurseES_Curse Get ready for emanci-PAIN SON Joined: Posts: 8,346
    Hm, didn't factor in the 1st shot.

    I sometimes wonder how different the game would be if Reinhardt and Lucio didn't exist. They're near-constant factors in every iteration of the game because there's no reliable counter to them and they offer options that negate the threat factor of other heroes. Not saying it's a good idea, but interactions with these two heroes tend to either directly or indirectly determine who is viable. (Will explain in a bit when I have a keyboard)
    formerly just5moreminutes. I guess the clock ran out.
  • XthAtGAm3RGuYXXthAtGAm3RGuYX SRK's ResidentSleeper Joined: Posts: 11,951
    Hm, didn't factor in the 1st shot.

    I sometimes wonder how different the game would be if Reinhardt and Lucio didn't exist. They're near-constant factors in every iteration of the game because there's no reliable counter to them and they offer options that negate the threat factor of other heroes. Not saying it's a good idea, but interactions with these two heroes tend to either directly or indirectly determine who is viable. (Will explain in a bit when I have a keyboard)

    Reinhardt: Soldier, Pharah, Bastion, D.va, Roadhog, Junkrat, Reaper
    Lucio: Winston, Genji, McCree, Roadhog, Zarya, Pharah, Tracer
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  • Amazing FunbagsAmazing Funbags The J-Cup Lover Joined: Posts: 17,888
    Pretty much anything that has 200 health and below will be killed by Hook, Shotgun, Melee.
    Boobologist Ph.D
  • ES_CurseES_Curse Get ready for emanci-PAIN SON Joined: Posts: 8,346
    Hm, didn't factor in the 1st shot.

    I sometimes wonder how different the game would be if Reinhardt and Lucio didn't exist. They're near-constant factors in every iteration of the game because there's no reliable counter to them and they offer options that negate the threat factor of other heroes. Not saying it's a good idea, but interactions with these two heroes tend to either directly or indirectly determine who is viable. (Will explain in a bit when I have a keyboard)

    Reinhardt: Soldier, Pharah, Bastion, D.va, Roadhog, Junkrat, Reaper
    Lucio: Winston, Genji, McCree, Roadhog, Zarya, Pharah, Tracer

    Counters? My keyword is "reliable". Yeah, you could run these characters to "counter" them, but all that ever happens is
    1) A hard counter (ex. McCree and D.Va beat many of your Rein counters) is added but the staple hero remains
    2) Teams just run said counter with the hero, creating even more comp mirrors (ex. Instead of not running Lucio because multiple Lucio counters are present, teams just use Lucio with his counters and hope to kill the enemy Lucio first)

    Neither one makes Rein or Lucio less viable, it just decides which of their "counters" (and counters to those counters) are played
    formerly just5moreminutes. I guess the clock ran out.
  • XthAtGAm3RGuYXXthAtGAm3RGuYX SRK's ResidentSleeper Joined: Posts: 11,951
    Hm, didn't factor in the 1st shot.

    I sometimes wonder how different the game would be if Reinhardt and Lucio didn't exist. They're near-constant factors in every iteration of the game because there's no reliable counter to them and they offer options that negate the threat factor of other heroes. Not saying it's a good idea, but interactions with these two heroes tend to either directly or indirectly determine who is viable. (Will explain in a bit when I have a keyboard)

    Reinhardt: Soldier, Pharah, Bastion, D.va, Roadhog, Junkrat, Reaper
    Lucio: Winston, Genji, McCree, Roadhog, Zarya, Pharah, Tracer

    Counters? My keyword is "reliable". Yeah, you could run these characters to "counter" them, but all that ever happens is
    1) A hard counter (ex. McCree and D.Va beat many of your Rein counters) is added but the staple hero remains
    2) Teams just run said counter with the hero, creating even more comp mirrors (ex. Instead of not running Lucio because multiple Lucio counters are present, teams just use Lucio with his counters and hope to kill the enemy Lucio first)

    Neither one makes Rein or Lucio less viable, it just decides which of their "counters" (and counters to those counters) are played

    You're moving the goal posts. Now my team can just counter your counters to my counters. Then your team can counter my counters to your counters to my counters. Once you bring up "well yeah but" in a conversation about who is reliable against who in Overwatch you start an endless cycle of that.

    Your doing the overwatch equivalent of:
    "I stabbed you with my sword!"
    "No you didn't because I have a force field that makes me invincible to swords!"
    "Oh yeah well my sword has an upgrade that makes it go through force fields!"
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  • angelpalmangelpalm Stop enjoying things Joined: Posts: 24,455 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Which one of you is higher ranked? Thats the guy that I am listening to, not the arm chair coach :coffee:
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  • ES_CurseES_Curse Get ready for emanci-PAIN SON Joined: Posts: 8,346
    Hm, didn't factor in the 1st shot.

    I sometimes wonder how different the game would be if Reinhardt and Lucio didn't exist. They're near-constant factors in every iteration of the game because there's no reliable counter to them and they offer options that negate the threat factor of other heroes. Not saying it's a good idea, but interactions with these two heroes tend to either directly or indirectly determine who is viable. (Will explain in a bit when I have a keyboard)

    Reinhardt: Soldier, Pharah, Bastion, D.va, Roadhog, Junkrat, Reaper
    Lucio: Winston, Genji, McCree, Roadhog, Zarya, Pharah, Tracer

    Counters? My keyword is "reliable". Yeah, you could run these characters to "counter" them, but all that ever happens is
    1) A hard counter (ex. McCree and D.Va beat many of your Rein counters) is added but the staple hero remains
    2) Teams just run said counter with the hero, creating even more comp mirrors (ex. Instead of not running Lucio because multiple Lucio counters are present, teams just use Lucio with his counters and hope to kill the enemy Lucio first)

    Neither one makes Rein or Lucio less viable, it just decides which of their "counters" (and counters to those counters) are played

    You're moving the goal posts. Now my team can just counter your counters to my counters. Then your team can counter my counters to your counters to my counters. Once you bring up "well yeah but" in a conversation about who is reliable against who in Overwatch you start an endless cycle of that.

    Your doing the overwatch equivalent of:
    "I stabbed you with my sword!"
    "No you didn't because I have a force field that makes me invincible to swords!"
    "Oh yeah well my sword has an upgrade that makes it go through force fields!"

    Not quite what I'm saying here. I have a hard time putting it into words (so I can't really elaborate), but it seems like Reinhardt and Lucio are so critical to serious play that even with counters they are the gatekeepers to what is and isn't viable.
    formerly just5moreminutes. I guess the clock ran out.
  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 10,256
    Hm, didn't factor in the 1st shot.

    I sometimes wonder how different the game would be if Reinhardt and Lucio didn't exist. They're near-constant factors in every iteration of the game because there's no reliable counter to them and they offer options that negate the threat factor of other heroes. Not saying it's a good idea, but interactions with these two heroes tend to either directly or indirectly determine who is viable. (Will explain in a bit when I have a keyboard)

    Reinhardt: Soldier, Pharah, Bastion, D.va, Roadhog, Junkrat, Reaper
    Lucio: Winston, Genji, McCree, Roadhog, Zarya, Pharah, Tracer

    Counters? My keyword is "reliable". Yeah, you could run these characters to "counter" them, but all that ever happens is
    1) A hard counter (ex. McCree and D.Va beat many of your Rein counters) is added but the staple hero remains
    2) Teams just run said counter with the hero, creating even more comp mirrors (ex. Instead of not running Lucio because multiple Lucio counters are present, teams just use Lucio with his counters and hope to kill the enemy Lucio first)

    Neither one makes Rein or Lucio less viable, it just decides which of their "counters" (and counters to those counters) are played

    If you go by that reasoning even Bastion has no counters since you can play a Rein and a Mercy with him.
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  • XthAtGAm3RGuYXXthAtGAm3RGuYX SRK's ResidentSleeper Joined: Posts: 11,951
    Hm, didn't factor in the 1st shot.

    I sometimes wonder how different the game would be if Reinhardt and Lucio didn't exist. They're near-constant factors in every iteration of the game because there's no reliable counter to them and they offer options that negate the threat factor of other heroes. Not saying it's a good idea, but interactions with these two heroes tend to either directly or indirectly determine who is viable. (Will explain in a bit when I have a keyboard)

    Reinhardt: Soldier, Pharah, Bastion, D.va, Roadhog, Junkrat, Reaper
    Lucio: Winston, Genji, McCree, Roadhog, Zarya, Pharah, Tracer

    Counters? My keyword is "reliable". Yeah, you could run these characters to "counter" them, but all that ever happens is
    1) A hard counter (ex. McCree and D.Va beat many of your Rein counters) is added but the staple hero remains
    2) Teams just run said counter with the hero, creating even more comp mirrors (ex. Instead of not running Lucio because multiple Lucio counters are present, teams just use Lucio with his counters and hope to kill the enemy Lucio first)

    Neither one makes Rein or Lucio less viable, it just decides which of their "counters" (and counters to those counters) are played

    You're moving the goal posts. Now my team can just counter your counters to my counters. Then your team can counter my counters to your counters to my counters. Once you bring up "well yeah but" in a conversation about who is reliable against who in Overwatch you start an endless cycle of that.

    Your doing the overwatch equivalent of:
    "I stabbed you with my sword!"
    "No you didn't because I have a force field that makes me invincible to swords!"
    "Oh yeah well my sword has an upgrade that makes it go through force fields!"

    Not quite what I'm saying here. I have a hard time putting it into words (so I can't really elaborate), but it seems like Reinhardt and Lucio are so critical to serious play that even with counters they are the gatekeepers to what is and isn't viable.

    They are critical but you're implying that their necessity to a team makes them untouchable, which it does not.
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  • highluluhighlulu Joined: Posts: 3,847
    Cipher wrote: »
    The reason why you can't go Hanzo and Widow against tripple tank, is that it's tripple tank.
    They could switch D.Va for Winston (while D.Va already is anti-sniper) and he would counter 2 heroes at once.
    Bastion also doesn't work because of two things. First D.Va's defence matrix can negate him,allowing Roadhog to hook him or even Reinhardt to charge him into the next wall and Bastion can't do shit to stop this since he just sits there and gets laughed at by D.Va.
    Junkrat might work, but then they could just get a Zarya and make Junkrat work for the enemy team.

    They aren't options because triple tank has to many ways to shut them down .

    You could also say they could go Pharah, but then one of the supports will go either Soldier or McCree and Pharah would rain from above.

    If you look at how triple tank can be build up and what counters the tanks have to the defence heroes, you will realise that they aren't good picks against a triple tank team.

    sure, hanzo and widow probably wont work as they both share counter characters. one or the other isn't a terrible idea as landing headshots on tanks is relatively easy.

    I agree with you on bastion, he's a niche pick as a surprise to win the shield war with the enemy team. Junkrat is imo the worst pick against triple tank as he can't focus his damage very well and he feeds ana's ult faster than anyone else in the game, who cares about feeding zarya who may or may not be on the enemy team the ana is the real problem.

    IMO your looking way too simply at the pharah pick against triple tank, her range and mobility make it difficult for the tanks to engage her and if a support on the enemy team decides to change then they have either died, committed suicide or ran all the way back to spawn to change. That's all prime time for your team to be making progress and doing damage to the enemy team. Forcing swaps out of the enemy team and then forcing the dps to focus on primarily one target can easily take them away from important fights if you know what your doing. Sometimes when i'm playing pharah i have both a soldier and a mccree almost solely trying to kill me, this makes them easy targets for my team on the ground.

    a couple of other sleeper picks IMO against the triple tank meta are Sombra and Tracer. both for pretty similar reasons; high mobility coupled with good damage output against tanks. Obviously tracer has more mobility and damage, but most tanks are sitting ducks when they have been hacked and sombra's damage output is much higher than normal when firing at tanks.
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  • MIRACLEARROWMIRACLEARROW Kendoka Joined: Posts: 2,057
    edited December 2016
    Hm, didn't factor in the 1st shot.

    I sometimes wonder how different the game would be if Reinhardt and Lucio didn't exist. They're near-constant factors in every iteration of the game because there's no reliable counter to them and they offer options that negate the threat factor of other heroes. Not saying it's a good idea, but interactions with these two heroes tend to either directly or indirectly determine who is viable. (Will explain in a bit when I have a keyboard)

    Reinhardt: Soldier, Pharah, Bastion, D.va, Roadhog, Junkrat, Reaper
    Lucio: Winston, Genji, McCree, Roadhog, Zarya, Pharah, Tracer

    Counters? My keyword is "reliable". Yeah, you could run these characters to "counter" them, but all that ever happens is
    1) A hard counter (ex. McCree and D.Va beat many of your Rein counters) is added but the staple hero remains
    2) Teams just run said counter with the hero, creating even more comp mirrors (ex. Instead of not running Lucio because multiple Lucio counters are present, teams just use Lucio with his counters and hope to kill the enemy Lucio first)

    Neither one makes Rein or Lucio less viable, it just decides which of their "counters" (and counters to those counters) are played

    You're moving the goal posts. Now my team can just counter your counters to my counters. Then your team can counter my counters to your counters to my counters. Once you bring up "well yeah but" in a conversation about who is reliable against who in Overwatch you start an endless cycle of that.

    Your doing the overwatch equivalent of:
    "I stabbed you with my sword!"
    "No you didn't because I have a force field that makes me invincible to swords!"
    "Oh yeah well my sword has an upgrade that makes it go through force fields!"

    Not quite what I'm saying here. I have a hard time putting it into words (so I can't really elaborate), but it seems like Reinhardt and Lucio are so critical to serious play that even with counters they are the gatekeepers to what is and isn't viable.

    They are critical but you're implying that their necessity to a team makes them untouchable, which it does not.

    They are untouchable in the line-up though. And instead of finding a viable/reliable counter(because it takes far too many resources in the form of a current meta counter pick) people just run the mirror and hope to outskill vs counterpick. That's all he's trying to say and its the truth with the current competitive meta.
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  • XthAtGAm3RGuYXXthAtGAm3RGuYX SRK's ResidentSleeper Joined: Posts: 11,951
    Hm, didn't factor in the 1st shot.

    I sometimes wonder how different the game would be if Reinhardt and Lucio didn't exist. They're near-constant factors in every iteration of the game because there's no reliable counter to them and they offer options that negate the threat factor of other heroes. Not saying it's a good idea, but interactions with these two heroes tend to either directly or indirectly determine who is viable. (Will explain in a bit when I have a keyboard)

    Reinhardt: Soldier, Pharah, Bastion, D.va, Roadhog, Junkrat, Reaper
    Lucio: Winston, Genji, McCree, Roadhog, Zarya, Pharah, Tracer

    Counters? My keyword is "reliable". Yeah, you could run these characters to "counter" them, but all that ever happens is
    1) A hard counter (ex. McCree and D.Va beat many of your Rein counters) is added but the staple hero remains
    2) Teams just run said counter with the hero, creating even more comp mirrors (ex. Instead of not running Lucio because multiple Lucio counters are present, teams just use Lucio with his counters and hope to kill the enemy Lucio first)

    Neither one makes Rein or Lucio less viable, it just decides which of their "counters" (and counters to those counters) are played

    You're moving the goal posts. Now my team can just counter your counters to my counters. Then your team can counter my counters to your counters to my counters. Once you bring up "well yeah but" in a conversation about who is reliable against who in Overwatch you start an endless cycle of that.

    Your doing the overwatch equivalent of:
    "I stabbed you with my sword!"
    "No you didn't because I have a force field that makes me invincible to swords!"
    "Oh yeah well my sword has an upgrade that makes it go through force fields!"

    Not quite what I'm saying here. I have a hard time putting it into words (so I can't really elaborate), but it seems like Reinhardt and Lucio are so critical to serious play that even with counters they are the gatekeepers to what is and isn't viable.

    They are critical but you're implying that their necessity to a team makes them untouchable, which it does not.

    They are untouchable in the line-up though. And instead of finding a viable/reliable counter(because it takes far too many resources in the form of a current meta counter pick) people just run the mirror and hope to outskill vs counterpick. That's all he's trying to say and its the truth with the current competitive meta.

    Wrong on that front too. It really depends on team strategy and enemy comp. If you're running a dive comp with Tracer/Genji you don't need a Rein since he's only protecting the healers. You can go Zarya/D.VA. but if the other team has a Roadhog you need the Rein because the shield stops hog from having his pick of anyone on your team with his hook. You also don't need Lucio in a triple tank comp either. You want Ana for the big heals on the tanks+nano, and you want Zenyatta with his discord to help bring up the team damage since you only have one DPS. Lucio is only optional if you want to try blitzkrieg offense with speed boost+sound barrier, but if it doesn't work after the second try it's basically a wasted slot.

    Between the nerfs in his speed boost, Zenyatta becoming really good, and Ana becoming relevant via 3 Tank Comp, Lucio isn't so much a necessity anymore. As far as supports go Lucio is kinda like current Soldier. Nobody will say no to having one, but they aren't gonna throw a fit over not having one.
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  • MIRACLEARROWMIRACLEARROW Kendoka Joined: Posts: 2,057
    edited December 2016
    Hm, didn't factor in the 1st shot.

    I sometimes wonder how different the game would be if Reinhardt and Lucio didn't exist. They're near-constant factors in every iteration of the game because there's no reliable counter to them and they offer options that negate the threat factor of other heroes. Not saying it's a good idea, but interactions with these two heroes tend to either directly or indirectly determine who is viable. (Will explain in a bit when I have a keyboard)

    Reinhardt: Soldier, Pharah, Bastion, D.va, Roadhog, Junkrat, Reaper
    Lucio: Winston, Genji, McCree, Roadhog, Zarya, Pharah, Tracer

    Counters? My keyword is "reliable". Yeah, you could run these characters to "counter" them, but all that ever happens is
    1) A hard counter (ex. McCree and D.Va beat many of your Rein counters) is added but the staple hero remains
    2) Teams just run said counter with the hero, creating even more comp mirrors (ex. Instead of not running Lucio because multiple Lucio counters are present, teams just use Lucio with his counters and hope to kill the enemy Lucio first)

    Neither one makes Rein or Lucio less viable, it just decides which of their "counters" (and counters to those counters) are played

    You're moving the goal posts. Now my team can just counter your counters to my counters. Then your team can counter my counters to your counters to my counters. Once you bring up "well yeah but" in a conversation about who is reliable against who in Overwatch you start an endless cycle of that.

    Your doing the overwatch equivalent of:
    "I stabbed you with my sword!"
    "No you didn't because I have a force field that makes me invincible to swords!"
    "Oh yeah well my sword has an upgrade that makes it go through force fields!"

    Not quite what I'm saying here. I have a hard time putting it into words (so I can't really elaborate), but it seems like Reinhardt and Lucio are so critical to serious play that even with counters they are the gatekeepers to what is and isn't viable.

    They are critical but you're implying that their necessity to a team makes them untouchable, which it does not.

    They are untouchable in the line-up though. And instead of finding a viable/reliable counter(because it takes far too many resources in the form of a current meta counter pick) people just run the mirror and hope to outskill vs counterpick. That's all he's trying to say and its the truth with the current competitive meta.

    Wrong on that front too. It really depends on team strategy and enemy comp. If you're running a dive comp with Tracer/Genji you don't need a Rein since he's only protecting the healers. You can go Zarya/D.VA. but if the other team has a Roadhog you need the Rein because the shield stops hog from having his pick of anyone on your team with his hook. You also don't need Lucio in a triple tank comp either. You want Ana for the big heals on the tanks+nano, and you want Zenyatta with his discord to help bring up the team damage since you only have one DPS. Lucio is only optional if you want to try blitzkrieg offense with speed boost+sound barrier, but if it doesn't work after the second try it's basically a wasted slot.

    Between the nerfs in his speed boost, Zenyatta becoming really good, and Ana becoming relevant via 3 Tank Comp, Lucio isn't so much a necessity anymore. As far as supports go Lucio is kinda like current Soldier. Nobody will say no to having one, but they aren't gonna throw a fit over not having one.

    I like the analysis but statistically speaking I'm not wrong. If you look at current meta statistics any of the characters that land in S category are characters picked in close to 100 (>95 percent of the match ups.) For the two major December tournaments Lucio and Reinhardt are in the A category which stacks them between 80 and 95 percent pick rate on every single map type(along with Mercy.) Lucio actually dropped from the S tier for the first time in as long as I can remember lol. So although you're not wrong to point out potential outliers and the inevitable shifts in the meta which absolutely will take place (hopefully like you said :D), you're not speaking to the overwhelming averages in over 80 percent of all matches. And yes, I'm making the assumption that high level competitive tournament statistics are the guide for the overall meta. Which is fair since this is the way it is with any competitive game.

    https://www.overbuff.com/blog/2016-12-20-overwatch-hero-meta-report-tanks-for-watching
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  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 10,256
    Again, Overbuff reports are only about two live tournaments. You shouldn't take it as an accurate representation of the entire meta.
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  • MIRACLEARROWMIRACLEARROW Kendoka Joined: Posts: 2,057
    Again, Overbuff reports are only about two live tournaments. You shouldn't take it as an accurate representation of the entire meta.

    I agree, but if we compile the averages over the past 2 month's major tournaments the numbers would actually only support my argument more. I get that 2 tournaments is a small sample size but like I mentioned, high level tournaments are major indicators of the Meta and if we wanted to compile competitive tournament data over a larger time period you would see similar or even stronger results.
    Plus we're talking about Lucio, Reinhardt and Mercy here.... it't not like this is groundbreaking stuff. These heroes lately are more or less the corest of the core lol.
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  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 10,256
    People take Lucio and Rein because they are running the same strategy you can hardly go wrong with. If all teams mastered dive comps like Misfits then there would be no Rein or Ana in the meta.
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  • MIRACLEARROWMIRACLEARROW Kendoka Joined: Posts: 2,057
    People take Lucio and Rein because they are running the same strategy you can hardly go wrong with. If all teams mastered dive comps like Misfits then there would be no Rein or Ana in the meta.

    So what you're saying is, if the meta was different the meta would be different. lol
    Not trying to be a jerk but that's kind of funny.

    Thats the thing with the meta of any competitive game though. If something comes into popularity, a counter strat will usually take place at some point which gains steam through success against the popular meta game statistics. But with these core characters and the lack of variety, we really haven't seen a major shift in a long ass time because the tool-sets required to make changes either aren't viable, haven't been discovered or are non existent...
    That's all 5 minutes was trying to say.
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  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 10,256
    People take Lucio and Rein because they are running the same strategy you can hardly go wrong with. If all teams mastered dive comps like Misfits then there would be no Rein or Ana in the meta.

    So what you're saying is, if the meta was different the meta would be different. lol

    Rather "if the teams were different the meta would be different".
    I dunno, there's a clear difference between a tournament where one of the teams has Shadowburn and another tournament where there isn't any. The presence of Hymzi alone at OW WC made the Roadhog usage spike by a lot, and the same could be said of Miro's Winston or SB/Arhan's Genji.
    This is why you can't take a single live event as representative of the meta. Specific comps revolving around stellar players may make a difference and force everyone to switch strategies.
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  • XthAtGAm3RGuYXXthAtGAm3RGuYX SRK's ResidentSleeper Joined: Posts: 11,951
    I don't know what game you're playing but shit has been changing a lot lately. I've been seeing more Torbjorn, Symmetra, Winston, and Ana than ever before, and not to mention that Bastion is starting to pop up more frequently thanks to how easily he shreds a triple tank comp. I've also been seeing a spike in dependable Widowmaker players, on PS4 no less. Usually I request they switch after a minute of being worthless but now, as long as they keep showing up in the kill feed it's fair game.
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  • ES_CurseES_Curse Get ready for emanci-PAIN SON Joined: Posts: 8,346
    Just saying, ever notice how no one asks for Lucio or Reinhardt nerfs even when they've been the most important heroes for a majority of the game's lifespan, but if McCree/Ana/Roadhog so much as graze that usage level people cry that they're OP? Because the basic strategy of most teams rests on using the tools only those two can provide. Symmetra/other tanks aren't nearly as good at protecting others as Reinhardt, and no other character can give the team a speed boost to dominate positioning contests. You can't keep up vs an equally skilled team because those two each break a core rule of the game:
    -Reinhardt: "You cannot shoot through cover." Yes, other tanks can shield people, but those shields are much weaker so they are only cover for a very brief time. Reinhardt gives the team near-immunity to all damage with a barrier that covers an entire choke point, can move with the team or remain in a defensive position, and has more than 3 times as much health as Roadhog/D.Va. Actual cover is pointless for Reinhardt teams because you can place a 1-sided wall wherever and whenever you want.
    -Lucio: "Two heroes that are equally fast can maintain distance, a faster hero has more control over their position relative to a slower one." Lucio's speed boost is a must have for engages and retreats. The only way you can maintain your position, if you have the same mobility options otherwise, is to have your own Lucio. This forces a stalemate where, if one team has a Lucio, the other team must have one or let the enemy team decide what range all battles occur at.

    I think there are situations, particularly on defense, where you have other goals/advantages as part of the map which can balance out these two. For example, KotH fights can happen from multiple angles, so it is possible in an even situation to outflank Reinhardt. But, if you take a point like Lijiang Market and take a defensive position, flanking goes back to being about as viable as it was on the asymmetric maps. Even the Misfits triple DPS example, mainly works because the first hold point on Gibraltar offers a lot more high ground and flank routes to attackers than most maps.
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  • XthAtGAm3RGuYXXthAtGAm3RGuYX SRK's ResidentSleeper Joined: Posts: 11,951
    While it is true that you cannot shoot through cover(except for Firestrike, dragon strike and mega buster), there is a solution to that even a kidnergartner comprehends. "If you can't go through it, go around/over it." Reinhardt is most viable against hitscan. Once you throw a curveball it fucks up the entire game plan. Get a Tracer/Genji behind the team and suddenly Reinhardt is scrambling to protect the team while everyone is taking damage, which means he isn't effectively guarding where he should be. Throw a Pharah into the mix who's popping rockets over and around the shield and using concussive blast to break up formation? Reinhardt becomes ineffective unless some serious countering is being done to the opposing DPS. Having a Reinhardt in the lineup isn't as simple as "Stand here, hold shield, win game". For instance when I play Pharah on Hanamura, you know how Rein loves to just stand in the door way on defense? I concussion behind him to push him out into the street where 9/10 times he gets mauled by my team? Why? Because while his shield is valuable, it's limited in use. It is not an end all be all solution to overwatch

    Case in point: why is Reinhardt seldom picked on KOTH maps? Because there are multiple entry points to the objective, meaning it's hard for Rein to guard the team.
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  • Mood4food77Mood4food77 Joined: Posts: 9,876
    While it is true that you cannot shoot through cover(except for Firestrike, dragon strike and mega buster), there is a solution to that even a kidnergartner comprehends. "If you can't go through it, go around/over it." Reinhardt is most viable against hitscan. Once you throw a curveball it fucks up the entire game plan. Get a Tracer/Genji behind the team and suddenly Reinhardt is scrambling to protect the team while everyone is taking damage, which means he isn't effectively guarding where he should be. Throw a Pharah into the mix who's popping rockets over and around the shield and using concussive blast to break up formation? Reinhardt becomes ineffective unless some serious countering is being done to the opposing DPS. Having a Reinhardt in the lineup isn't as simple as "Stand here, hold shield, win game". For instance when I play Pharah on Hanamura, you know how Rein loves to just stand in the door way on defense? I concussion behind him to push him out into the street where 9/10 times he gets mauled by my team? Why? Because while his shield is valuable, it's limited in use. It is not an end all be all solution to overwatch

    Case in point: why is Reinhardt seldom picked on KOTH maps? Because there are multiple entry points to the objective, meaning it's hard for Rein to guard the team.

    Uh, since ana reinhardt has been pretty popular on KOTH. Just saying
  • CHIEfyCHIEfy Joined: Posts: 1,183
    edited December 2016
    Got Sym's highlight intro in a level up box the other day.

    I've been pretty lucky this month. At this point I almost don't care if I don't get the Tracer or Winston skins lol.

    Oh and they gave us 5 free loot boxes today for the holidays. Got three legendaries but none of them were Christmas skins. Meh.
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  • XthAtGAm3RGuYXXthAtGAm3RGuYX SRK's ResidentSleeper Joined: Posts: 11,951
    While it is true that you cannot shoot through cover(except for Firestrike, dragon strike and mega buster), there is a solution to that even a kidnergartner comprehends. "If you can't go through it, go around/over it." Reinhardt is most viable against hitscan. Once you throw a curveball it fucks up the entire game plan. Get a Tracer/Genji behind the team and suddenly Reinhardt is scrambling to protect the team while everyone is taking damage, which means he isn't effectively guarding where he should be. Throw a Pharah into the mix who's popping rockets over and around the shield and using concussive blast to break up formation? Reinhardt becomes ineffective unless some serious countering is being done to the opposing DPS. Having a Reinhardt in the lineup isn't as simple as "Stand here, hold shield, win game". For instance when I play Pharah on Hanamura, you know how Rein loves to just stand in the door way on defense? I concussion behind him to push him out into the street where 9/10 times he gets mauled by my team? Why? Because while his shield is valuable, it's limited in use. It is not an end all be all solution to overwatch

    Case in point: why is Reinhardt seldom picked on KOTH maps? Because there are multiple entry points to the objective, meaning it's hard for Rein to guard the team.

    Uh, since ana reinhardt has been pretty popular on KOTH. Just saying

    Are we citing premier league play again? I barely see either of those in KOTH in my comp game
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  • Mood4food77Mood4food77 Joined: Posts: 9,876
    While it is true that you cannot shoot through cover(except for Firestrike, dragon strike and mega buster), there is a solution to that even a kidnergartner comprehends. "If you can't go through it, go around/over it." Reinhardt is most viable against hitscan. Once you throw a curveball it fucks up the entire game plan. Get a Tracer/Genji behind the team and suddenly Reinhardt is scrambling to protect the team while everyone is taking damage, which means he isn't effectively guarding where he should be. Throw a Pharah into the mix who's popping rockets over and around the shield and using concussive blast to break up formation? Reinhardt becomes ineffective unless some serious countering is being done to the opposing DPS. Having a Reinhardt in the lineup isn't as simple as "Stand here, hold shield, win game". For instance when I play Pharah on Hanamura, you know how Rein loves to just stand in the door way on defense? I concussion behind him to push him out into the street where 9/10 times he gets mauled by my team? Why? Because while his shield is valuable, it's limited in use. It is not an end all be all solution to overwatch

    Case in point: why is Reinhardt seldom picked on KOTH maps? Because there are multiple entry points to the objective, meaning it's hard for Rein to guard the team.

    Uh, since ana reinhardt has been pretty popular on KOTH. Just saying

    Are we citing premier league play again? I barely see either of those in KOTH in my comp game

    He's been pretty common in all formats when ive played. He's so good with ana
  • SkullboySkullboy Drinking With Skeletons. Joined: Posts: 12,459
    You get attacked on all sides of the payload too, tho. That's why I think Reinhardt works well in both game modes, especially if he gets the proper support from his team.
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  • Mood4food77Mood4food77 Joined: Posts: 9,876
    Without ana, reinhardt isnt worth it on koth
  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 10,256
    While it is true that you cannot shoot through cover(except for Firestrike, dragon strike and mega buster), there is a solution to that even a kidnergartner comprehends. "If you can't go through it, go around/over it." Reinhardt is most viable against hitscan. Once you throw a curveball it fucks up the entire game plan. Get a Tracer/Genji behind the team and suddenly Reinhardt is scrambling to protect the team while everyone is taking damage, which means he isn't effectively guarding where he should be. Throw a Pharah into the mix who's popping rockets over and around the shield and using concussive blast to break up formation? Reinhardt becomes ineffective unless some serious countering is being done to the opposing DPS. Having a Reinhardt in the lineup isn't as simple as "Stand here, hold shield, win game". For instance when I play Pharah on Hanamura, you know how Rein loves to just stand in the door way on defense? I concussion behind him to push him out into the street where 9/10 times he gets mauled by my team? Why? Because while his shield is valuable, it's limited in use. It is not an end all be all solution to overwatch

    Case in point: why is Reinhardt seldom picked on KOTH maps? Because there are multiple entry points to the objective, meaning it's hard for Rein to guard the team.

    Uh, since ana reinhardt has been pretty popular on KOTH. Just saying

    That's because of Ana, not because of Rein.
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  • Mood4food77Mood4food77 Joined: Posts: 9,876
    While it is true that you cannot shoot through cover(except for Firestrike, dragon strike and mega buster), there is a solution to that even a kidnergartner comprehends. "If you can't go through it, go around/over it." Reinhardt is most viable against hitscan. Once you throw a curveball it fucks up the entire game plan. Get a Tracer/Genji behind the team and suddenly Reinhardt is scrambling to protect the team while everyone is taking damage, which means he isn't effectively guarding where he should be. Throw a Pharah into the mix who's popping rockets over and around the shield and using concussive blast to break up formation? Reinhardt becomes ineffective unless some serious countering is being done to the opposing DPS. Having a Reinhardt in the lineup isn't as simple as "Stand here, hold shield, win game". For instance when I play Pharah on Hanamura, you know how Rein loves to just stand in the door way on defense? I concussion behind him to push him out into the street where 9/10 times he gets mauled by my team? Why? Because while his shield is valuable, it's limited in use. It is not an end all be all solution to overwatch

    Case in point: why is Reinhardt seldom picked on KOTH maps? Because there are multiple entry points to the objective, meaning it's hard for Rein to guard the team.

    Uh, since ana reinhardt has been pretty popular on KOTH. Just saying

    That's because of Ana, not because of Rein.

    Yes...i said that, he said rein was rarely picked on koth. It's not true since ana release.

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