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  • Mood4food77Mood4food77 Joined: Posts: 9,596
    I dont see how hanzo's kit is more useful when mccree can stop flankers and beat sheilds better than hanzo while being able to stay by his team the whole time

    Maybe they have different utilities? Can McCree show the enemy position to the entire team? Can McCree control chokes as good as Hanzo with his scatter, primary fire and ult? Can McCree one shot people from far away?

    I find hilarious that your best argument against Hanzo is that he has to get to high ground to make picks and yet you have to figure out that being able to get to high ground easily is the very advantage of Hanzo over McCree.
    jae hoon wrote: »
    Seagull said Hanzo was trash because he wasn't hitscan.

    Yet he only plays non-hitscan heroes. Go figure out, lol.
    Must be like the time when he said there was no point of playing Genji over Tracer after his nerfs, yet Genji has still a way bigger pick rate than Tracer in tournament events.
    jae hoon wrote: »
    McCree has far more consistent damage, a good one is hitting at least 50-55 pct of his shots with multiple headshots. It isn't hard

    A good Hanzo may have less precision, but the difference is that Hanzo's shots have no fall off damage and do twice as much damage as McCree's shots. You might miss two arrows, but if the 3rd one hits you pretty much secured a kill. McCree can't kill anybody with a single headshot, not even Tracer.
    If you compare Seagull's Hanzo and iddqd's McCree who both have played about the same number of matches with their respective heroes in S2/3 and are on the same SR range, Seagull actually has a higher rate of elims/min and also overall higher damage output.
    If you argue that McCree is easier to use, of course he is. But it doesn't mean that a Hanzo can't be equally effective in the right hands. It just won't happen below a certain skill level.

    Mccree can hold a choke point very well. He's like best buds with reinhardt. He'll sit behind that shield dealing damage. This is more a defensive thing tho.

    Hanzo's radar shot is nice but it doesnt do anything to stop ults unless it hits someone. I think flashbang is still better by being able to make targets sitting ducks

    Mccree doesnt need to be higg ground for his damage. He's with his team moving the payload dealing damage at about the same rate hanzo can. Hanzo's shot is pretty slow.

    Genji should have more elims than mccree. Genji is more likely to go in and finish off teams after mccree dealt all the damage. Genji's role is to pick off the healers, mccrees is deal damage and stop flankers

    Hanzo's slow projectile, shot, and movement while shooting are all amongst reasons he's not used on offense as much as mccree or soldier
  • just5moreminutesjust5moreminutes Eagle will return Joined: Posts: 7,750
    Hanzo sucks because he's a projectile character meant to fight at long range, where travel time is a major factor in how you predict movement. On top of that, he doesn't have Widow's mobility or McCree's stun, so if a Rein shield is blocking him you're just SOL.
  • BB_HoodyBB_Hoody Nice plane you have there. Be a Shame if something went wrong in flight and it crashed Joined: Posts: 4,807
    "he doesn't have Widow's mobility" lol I quit.

    I think when they talk about mobilty. They mean escape options and the ability to reposition quickly. If Widow is under attack she can grappling hook out of there. Or use it to get to A better position quickly to snipe.

    Soldier can sprint out of A bad situation or just sprint whenever.

    Hanzo while he does have his wall climb which is good for positioning. He can't exactly get to another sniping position as easily as Widow can when he needs to. I.E He'd have to jump to the ground, run over to A wall and climb it. Where as widow just grappling hooks. If he's under attack up close he can't escape like widow or soldier can. He has no choice but to commit to the fight.
  • XthAtGAm3RGuYXXthAtGAm3RGuYX SRK's ResidentSleeper Joined: Posts: 11,839
    Outside of two ledges on Hanamura and widows ability to cross two death gaps, Hanzo and Widow have the same mobility. Mainly because Hanzo can use his mobility whenever he wants. It's not tied to a 12 second cooldown.

    If you rush Hanzo he can just climb a wall to stall for healing or run away. If you rush a Widow her hook is probably on cool down, and if it's not, the hook might auto path to the wrong ledge and leave her high and dry
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  • XhominidXhominid Knight of Dizzy Joined: Posts: 516
    jae hoon wrote: »
    Grappling hook badly needs a CD reduction with the current Widowmaker.

    It should be the same cool-down as Roadhog's hook at least.

    Or switch the CD's between both skills. Would make Roadhog way more balanced with his "Fuck up a Tank's day" damage now.
  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 9,510
    edited February 4
    BB_Hoody wrote: »
    "he doesn't have Widow's mobility" lol I quit.

    I think when they talk about mobilty. They mean escape options and the ability to reposition quickly. If Widow is under attack she can grappling hook out of there. Or use it to get to A better position quickly to snipe.

    Soldier can sprint out of A bad situation or just sprint whenever.

    Hanzo while he does have his wall climb which is good for positioning. He can't exactly get to another sniping position as easily as Widow can when he needs to. I.E He'd have to jump to the ground, run over to A wall and climb it. Where as widow just grappling hooks. If he's under attack up close he can't escape like widow or soldier can. He has no choice but to commit to the fight.

    Aren't you forgetting her hook has a 12s cooldown? Hanzo can reposition himself whenever he wants, while she has to wait an eternity to do it again. He only has issues escaping heroes that also have vertical mobility, but so does Widow.
    jae hoon wrote: »
    Grappling hook badly needs a CD reduction with the current Widowmaker.

    It should be the same cool-down as Roadhog's hook at least.

    If her hook had a 6s cooldown she could basically be in the air doing trickshots the entire time because by the time she lands the CD would be almost over. Around 8s she would probably become the best sniper and arguably also one of the best hitscan heroes in the game.
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  • just5moreminutesjust5moreminutes Eagle will return Joined: Posts: 7,750
    Widow doesn't have to be humping a wall to scale it. Hanzo has better at-will mobility, but Widow can do trickshots and get to strange spots, which is exactly what you need to shoot around a Rein shield. Certain characters/set ups can force a Rein to drop the shield and let either sniper get kills, but Widow is better at getting to a flank on most maps.
  • DramatixDramatix Could be better. Joined: Posts: 4,521
    jae hoon wrote: »
    Grappling hook badly needs a CD reduction with the current Widowmaker.

    I don't even use Widow and feel her hook needs a MASSIVE cooldown. 8s seems more reasonable than 6s, as aformentioned she'd become Bayonetta if so and start bullet dancing.
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  • jae hoonjae hoon Flames of Justice Joined: Posts: 12,701 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Honestly Roadhogs hook needs a range nerf, they increased the range the hook had in beta by 40 pct I want to say. It needs a probably 20pct range nerf.
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  • Mood4food77Mood4food77 Joined: Posts: 9,596
    jae hoon wrote: »
    Honestly Roadhogs hook needs a range nerf, they increased the range the hook had in beta by 40 pct I want to say. It needs a probably 20pct range nerf.

    Dont kill the pig. He's not OP, stop being in position so he can hook you
  • jae hoonjae hoon Flames of Justice Joined: Posts: 12,701 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    jae hoon wrote: »
    Honestly Roadhogs hook needs a range nerf, they increased the range the hook had in beta by 40 pct I want to say. It needs a probably 20pct range nerf.

    Dont kill the pig. He's not OP, stop being in position so he can hook you

    He isn't op, I thought it was an unnecessary change when they did it. He is still a walking human target.
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  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 9,510
    Widow doesn't have to be humping a wall to scale it. Hanzo has better at-will mobility, but Widow can do trickshots and get to strange spots, which is exactly what you need to shoot around a Rein shield. Certain characters/set ups can force a Rein to drop the shield and let either sniper get kills, but Widow is better at getting to a flank on most maps.

    Then you miss your jump after hook or your hook gets stuck in a weird place and you won't be able to reach those high spots for another 12 fucking seconds, GG.
    Come on, there are many flaws you can point out about Hanzo but you can't say he has worse mobility than Widow. Winston and D.va can jump twice on her by the time the CD of her hook is over...
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  • SurremiesSurremies Joined: Posts: 701
    edited February 5
    Hog is probably getting nerfed because of Battle.net forums' general butthurt and outcry. Their "fixes" are usually the ones that make him instant trash tier and useless but it's been the same since the launch.

    Those forums even have "highly rated" topic about how Symmetra is overpowered and she has to be nerfed.
    "Every nerf makes its own tune.."
  • just5moreminutesjust5moreminutes Eagle will return Joined: Posts: 7,750
    If BNet had their way, the only useful characters would be characters like Widow, Hanzo, and Genji; i.e. requires an amount of skill over 90% of the playerbase simply doesn't have in order to be played effectively.

    Only character that probably needs toning down right now is Soldier, as he does so much damage from safe distances that other DPS heroes are less viable because of him. Genji/Tracer aren't hurt as much because they don't directly compete with Soldier, but McCree and Reaper are hard to justify when Soldier can do their jobs with less risk.
  • SurremiesSurremies Joined: Posts: 701
    edited February 5
    Fuck edit button this time..

    Feels fucking great to break losing streak. Me and my friends had 4 matches that we lost but finally won 5th one. It's great to have one decent victory and gain something like 20-30 SR back, right?

    Fuck no. I got fucking 2 (you got that right) SR points from 3-0 victory in King's Row.
    "Every nerf makes its own tune.."
  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 9,510
    Someone asked Seagull what he thinks about the viability of Hanzo in tournaments:

    n5zwhZ3.png
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  • XhominidXhominid Knight of Dizzy Joined: Posts: 516
    Roadhog's hook does need a range or a CD nerf(or both) but I would actually say that in exchange, his gun needs less spread on both his main and alt fire.
    Trying to define a character on a single ability with no utility on that ability on top of that is just ridiculous. If Roadhog is useless outside of his hook, then don't buff the hook, buff everything else about him.

    And my problem with Symmetra is the quite frank absurd tether that won't immediately disappear even if you go past the 10m range of her gun after lock on. That's also combined with her charge not going away at all unless she stops using it in general for more than a few seconds, it still keeps the charge even after reloading.

    You guys can't sugarcoat the issue and throw everyone off the bus, Roadhog's hook is legit ridiculous because you are never fighting Roadhog by himself no should a Roadhog player ever do so. And people use "out of place" without realizing that Roadhog's hook means he can literally be a good distance away and "flank" you with the hook that way with you barely hearing him coming(or if you are hiding behind something, there is literally nothing stopping another enemy character from flanking you while hiding from Roadhog).

    And Symmetra's primary is just as bad since it's ridiculously hard for most of the cast to escape from it, let alone live once it's at full charge which is very easy for it now to do. And again, any smart Symmetra would flank the party whose busy with the enemy team and wreck their shit or pick out weaklings to let it charge to max. Doesn't help that Symmetra's kit is already good enough.
  • VhoziteVhozite Booty Worshipper Joined: Posts: 3,104
    edited February 5
    Regardless of if I think Roadhog is balanced or not I do find him extremely unfun and vibe killing. Dude is pretty much the Smart Pistol of Overwatch, in that damn near everyone seems to hate his guts.

    At the same time though he's like Rein in that if you nerf his main ability to hard he can easily go from good to unusable. Which is exactly why I'm not a huge fan of characters being designed around one OP ability.
  • Mood4food77Mood4food77 Joined: Posts: 9,596
    Roadhog's hook can have an 8 second cooldown at worst, anything more and he's useless

    Roadhogs hook lets him play in the "optimal" range of overwatch, where most of the dog fights happen. He shouldnt be able to flank cause he has amongst the loudest footsteps in the game (like seriously, he's got chains and he snorts, he's loud as fuck) it'll happen every so often but if he's doing it a lot to you you just suck.

    He's unfun cause he's basically a one shot 1 kill character. The LoS and hitbox nerf to his hook makes him much more fair and more reliant on bad enemy positioning. I've gotten so much better after using him cause i know when he will Fuck me up. Your job should be to be aware of roadhog at all times. He's a huge target so it's best to overwhelm him
  • VhoziteVhozite Booty Worshipper Joined: Posts: 3,104
    Yeah 8 seconds is perfect imo. Quick enough to still be useful while making it risky to miss. Also, Hook 2.0 (2.1?) "Fixed" his hook, but the LOS check needs more tweaking. On more than one occasion I've broken LOS and still gotten reeled in. It just a bit rare now.

    My main gripe with him is how hard he can lock down points, especially on some KotH maps. Nothing makes me rage more than playing on Oasis: University or Illos: Well and the pig grabs me from the other side of the point for the OHKO.
  • XhominidXhominid Knight of Dizzy Joined: Posts: 516
    Roadhog's hook can have an 8 second cooldown at worst, anything more and he's useless

    Roadhogs hook lets him play in the "optimal" range of overwatch, where most of the dog fights happen. He shouldnt be able to flank cause he has amongst the loudest footsteps in the game (like seriously, he's got chains and he snorts, he's loud as fuck) it'll happen every so often but if he's doing it a lot to you you just suck.

    He's unfun cause he's basically a one shot 1 kill character. The LoS and hitbox nerf to his hook makes him much more fair and more reliant on bad enemy positioning. I've gotten so much better after using him cause i know when he will Fuck me up. Your job should be to be aware of roadhog at all times. He's a huge target so it's best to overwhelm him

    And that's the problem, no other tank needs to be overwhelmed as hard as Roadhog for what he can do.
    And yes, Roadhog can in fact flank you due to how far his hook can go. Having the loudest footsteps means nothing when he's at max range. All of his counters can be easily oneshot and his healing is absurd compared to everyone else.

    A character should never be designed around a single ability, yet people still allow Roadhog to run free because "he would be useless if it was weaker" then why not buff him in other areas to offset it? This isn't rocket science people. But hey, this is the same group of people who will complain if every single Tank characters' damage was reduced even if it's one of the main reasons why Tanks are so dominant in the game in general.
  • Mood4food77Mood4food77 Joined: Posts: 9,596
    Most characters are based around a single ability....

    Rein has his shield and other tools so he's literally not just a shield, Lucio has AoE boost/healing, mercy has her staff, zenyatta has his orbs, etc. Roadhog is based around his hook and how to make the most of it
  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 9,510
    Vhozon wrote: »
    Regardless of if I think Roadhog is balanced or not I do find him extremely unfun and vibe killing. Dude is pretty much the Smart Pistol of Overwatch, in that damn near everyone seems to hate his guts.

    Hooking and destroying every single hero in the game including the most mobile ones is fun though :coffee:
    (I played a lot of Hog since the D.va nerf because apparently it's what Blizz wants me to do)
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  • XhominidXhominid Knight of Dizzy Joined: Posts: 516
    Most characters are based around a single ability....

    Rein has his shield and other tools so he's literally not just a shield, Lucio has AoE boost/healing, mercy has her staff, zenyatta has his orbs, etc. Roadhog is based around his hook and how to make the most of it

    Not to the level Roadhog is.
    Last time I checked, no other hero is as gimped without their one ability than Roadhog but rather than balance Roadhog to be able to function without his hook...
  • just5moreminutesjust5moreminutes Eagle will return Joined: Posts: 7,750
    The hook IS Roadhog, though. He's a lot like the other tanks in that his abilities are the bread and butter of good play, with the weapon being more of a complement to that style. Also, max range hooks are legitimately hard to use at times due to the travel speed, so that's fine. Roadhog's hook appears strong until you consider that Widowmaker and Hanzo can 1 shot almost as many heroes via headshots, and they don't have a cooldown beyond firing and reloading the weapon. Hanzo in particular has Scatter Arrow, which can net kills on weaker characters easily. And unlike getting headshot by a sniper, getting hooked makes it really apparent that you were out of position due to the LoS checks on Hook 2.1.
  • VhoziteVhozite Booty Worshipper Joined: Posts: 3,104
    edited February 6
    Yeah but Scatter Arrow has a way longer cooldown than the hook on top on being harder to use.

    Widow and Hanzo have to be relatively good to land there OHKO's. Now can they theoretically out do him, but in practice it's not happening. Widow is trash tier on top of that.
    Vhozon wrote: »
    Regardless of if I think Roadhog is balanced or not I do find him extremely unfun and vibe killing. Dude is pretty much the Smart Pistol of Overwatch, in that damn near everyone seems to hate his guts.

    Hooking and destroying every single hero in the game including the most mobile ones is fun though :coffee:
    (I played a lot of Hog since the D.va nerf because apparently it's what Blizz wants me to do)

    I don't really enjoy playing hog at all. Don't get me wrong, hooking people is fun, but it's all he does. Even his ultimate is lame. He has one trick.
  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 9,510
    Vhozon wrote: »
    Yeah but Scatter Arrow has a way longer cooldown than the hook

    What? Scatter arrow is 10s, the hook is 12s.
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  • Amazing FunbagsAmazing Funbags The J-Cup Lover Joined: Posts: 17,862
    When you carry your team as Winston:
    4a0.png

    Sucks that my two favorite Tanks have similar styles =/
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  • SurremiesSurremies Joined: Posts: 701
    edited February 6
    It's strange how it seems people either forgot or downplay Reaper as good Roadhog counter. While of course Reaper getting hooked is usually an insta-death, tank meta is still viable and hook consistency got better, fighting 1v1 against Roadhog is still really fun in my opinion. Baiting opponent's hook is vast majority of the time pretty easy and once they are out, whole match-up is over and my Reaper is doing his Slow clap emote.

    Boy those players wish that Hog would've excercise once they fail their hook against me / against my teammate when I'm close.
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  • VhoziteVhozite Booty Worshipper Joined: Posts: 3,104
    edited February 7
    Vhozon wrote: »
    Yeah but Scatter Arrow has a way longer cooldown than the hook

    What? Scatter arrow is 10s, the hook is 12s.

    Hook cooldown is 6 seconds, unless I missed a joke or something.

    Also, I don't see how Reaper counters Hog when then entire fight depends on Roadhog fucking up his easy OHKO. If he is doing max damage he is in Hogs danger zone and he pretty much can't wraith against him. But that is more because Reaper is ass. He is at best a check. If this were a fighter I'd say it was a 5-5 MU maybe.

    Reaper in general is pretty underwhelming.
  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 9,510
    edited February 7
    Vhozon wrote: »
    Vhozon wrote: »
    Yeah but Scatter Arrow has a way longer cooldown than the hook

    What? Scatter arrow is 10s, the hook is 12s.

    Hook cooldown is 6 seconds, unless I missed a joke or something.

    Sorry, I read quickly and I thought you were talking about Widow since both you and just5moreminutes mentioned her.
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  • jae hoonjae hoon Flames of Justice Joined: Posts: 12,701 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    edited February 7
    Hog has a ton of counters people just like to pretend he doesn't. He lives and dies by his hook.
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  • SurremiesSurremies Joined: Posts: 701
    edited February 7
    Vhozon wrote: »
    Also, I don't see how Reaper counters Hog when then entire fight depends on Roadhog fucking up his easy OHKO. If he is doing max damage he is in Hogs danger zone and he pretty much can't wraith against him.
    It's pretty easy to position yourself as Reaper in order to deal or kill 1-2 healers / Hog or other tank. When the job's done and you aren't dumbass, you can safely fall back to safe spot. It's just that Soldier, while having great damage since the last buff he had, has also tons of mobility and versatility to act in frontline or as flanker.

    Hog - Reaper match-up itself has been the same since the launch. If you bait his hook and get close, it's game over for Hog if your aim isn't silver level. You could always mention possible threats like Ana / Mercy healing Hog but you are not supposed to approach them like tunnelvisioned CoD player. It was the same thing before tank meta, before bullshit hook was fixed (OHK kill on Reaper was inconsistent but was still there) and it's the same thing after the bullshit hook.
    But that is more because Reaper is ass
    It's more about Soldier doing every single thing better atm than McCree, Genji, Pharah (edit: lately seen more experimental use afaik, pardon me) or Reaper (at pro level). Tracer is there because you don't need slow damage dealer. Just synergy between the mobility. It's like the synergy that created tank meta.

    Using Hog as big bad / devil is retarded. Once he's nerfed like I already recalled, community jumps to next hate train and demands nerfs for certain character that "ruins the game".
    "Every nerf makes its own tune.."
  • VhoziteVhozite Booty Worshipper Joined: Posts: 3,104
    Unrelated, but is there a reason why Symmetra is a support hero and not defense?
  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 9,510
    jae hoon wrote: »
    Hog has a ton of counters people just like to pretend he doesn't. He lives and dies by his hook.

    The more I play Sombra the more I think she's a good counter to him (together with Ana + the snipers). Not only because she can disable both healing and hook and make him harmless but because she can unload a fuckton of damage in his head. He's the best way to farm your ult without health packs.
    Vhozon wrote: »
    Unrelated, but is there a reason why Symmetra is a support hero and not defense?

    None really. I guess it made sense when she gave 50 shield to each one with her E and her teleporter is kind of a rez anyway. Blizzard already said they're okay with the idea of moving her to the defense category if needed.
    Each time I play the support brawl it appears so clearly that she has nothing to do with the other ones.
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  • DramatixDramatix Could be better. Joined: Posts: 4,521
    I was lowkey hoping Symmetra would get an AOE-trapping ult that microwaves anyone caught it, similar to Mei's Blizzard, but a shield generator is still very good.
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