Pocket Rumble: 2D indie fighter on Kickstarter RIGHT NOW!

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Comments

  • kenurankenuran Kerberotte Joined: Posts: 2,063
    edited March 1
    appomo wrote: »

    not trying to convince anyone here to not buy the product because i dont want to support chuckle.
    so feel free to put that whiteknight sword back where it belongs and chill.



    You are the one who brought up Chucklefish as a reason to not buy the game regardless of if you were trying to convince anyone or not. So its not really strange to ask about whats wrong with Chucklefish being a publisher for the game.
    Post edited by kenuran on
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  • FatalSeabassFatalSeabass Seabass is lethal! Joined: Posts: 960
    edited March 1
    Wait, what? What happened to a character coming out every month? So from the day of the Steam release, you could only play as 3 characters?
  • PSYCH0J0SHPSYCH0J0SH Joined: Posts: 4,662
    Wait, what? What happened to a character coming out every month? So from the day of the Steam release, you could only play as 3 characters?


    No. There were 3 characters at the start of Early Access but the game is nearly complete and all eight characters are playable now, with varying levels of completion.
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  • appomoappomo Joined: Posts: 2,620
    edited March 1
    kenuran wrote: »
    appomo wrote: »

    not trying to convince anyone here to not buy the product because i dont want to support chuckle.
    so feel free to put that whiteknight sword back where it belongs and chill.



    You are the one who brought up Chucklefish as a reason to not buy the game regardless of if you were trying to convince anyone or not. So its not really strange to ask about whats wrong with Chucklefish being a publisher for the game.
    of course its not strange and i replied to jetkinen about it,even tho i didn't wanted to go into details because for you guys it shouldn't matter.

    psychs reply on the other hand...well i gave him my answer to his stupid reply already.

    main question is still not answered...does anyone know why they picked them as a publisher?
    they had to go trough greenlight anyway and fundings via kickstarter where safed too...
    tekken7_forum_signatur2_by_f_g_c-db39pic.jpg

  • JetKinenJetKinen Joined: Posts: 519
    Having a publisher just makes things easier, generally.

    I'd guess having Chucklefish as a partner probably gave them some developer build to the Switch to allow them to release it for that console.
  • Plaid_UnicornPlaid_Unicorn Joined: Posts: 8,240
    Will this be available at the switch launch?
    Just because I lost... doesn't mean I was defeated
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  • JetKinenJetKinen Joined: Posts: 519
    If not launch is coming at least in the same month

  • Bob199Bob199 Joined: Posts: 64
    Some basic corner combos for each character

  • phoenixnlphoenixnl Joined: Posts: 640
    appomo wrote: »
    JetKinen wrote: »
    Whats the probem with chucklefish?
    the kickstarter campaign was a success right?
    why do they need them?

    If you seriously think they haven't run out of money by now, you must be retarded. This is an issue with the race to the bottom that we've been seeing with Kickstarters. Not a single indie that is getting funded these days actually gets enough funds to build the game. Pocket Rumble got $25,280, subtract from that Kickstarter fee and some other shit. That would leave you with like 20k. Let's assume that there's only 4 devs, and they worked on the game for one year: That would be a yearly an income of $5000! I don't know about you, but I wouldn't want to live off of that. Even if only 2 people worked on it full-time (which I doubt) you'd end up with 10k, which is only barely manageable. And that's assuming that they only worked on it for a year (which they didn't).

    Them being on Early Access surely helped a little bit, but when the game first hit Early Access it was pretty rough, and that's in a genre that is probably already oversaturated considering its popularity. I don't think they raked in tens of thousands of dollars with it. If they more than a couple of thousand bucks, I'd be very surprised.

    Is it any surprise these guys could use some financial help? No, it's pretty essential. I'm happy that they landed a publisher, and being a 2 button fighter, it's actually a really neat fit for the Switch.

    TL;DR: Don't be stupid. Making games costs a lot of money.
  • appomoappomo Joined: Posts: 2,620
    edited March 7
    when someone makes a kickstarter campaign for a project they should ask for the summ which they need to finish the project.....no?
    and beside of that the game is on steam as a ea game for quite a while which give them some extra income too and
    the last thing..you dont even know if chuckle gave them any more money to finish the product.

    you assume that...but do you know it for sure?...dont be stupid...(little backlash here ;))...and use assumed stuff as a fact.
    i mean the dev is her so i guess he can give the best answer for his reasons...when he want to answer.
    tekken7_forum_signatur2_by_f_g_c-db39pic.jpg

  • Evolution169Evolution169 Wake up DP is unbeatable Joined: Posts: 984
    appomo wrote: »
    when someone makes a kickstarter campaign for a project they should ask for the summ which they need to finish the project.....no?
    Well no, that's not always the case. Shenmue 3 just needed to reach their goal to convince some investors to back the game. I think some other game did that too(Bloodstained or MN9. I can't remember).
  • appomoappomo Joined: Posts: 2,620
    appomo wrote: »
    when someone makes a kickstarter campaign for a project they should ask for the summ which they need to finish the project.....no?
    Well no, that's not always the case. Shenmue 3 just needed to reach their goal to convince some investors to back the game. I think some other game did that too(Bloodstained or MN9. I can't remember).
    didnt they had sony and YsNet already on board?
    they mention them in the campaign.

    i agree that that can be a plan too but i dont recal it to be mentioned for the kickstarter campaign.
    at the end we can just assume what theire reason was and what kind of benefits they got out of it beside of the 10% income cut.

    i thought they mentioned that sometimes in the past which was the reason why i asked to get linked to the source.
    at the end its how it is, i just wanted to see what exactly the reason was for the step they have gone.

    i would say we cut that topic her since its not really relevant for the game itself or you guys.....does anyone know when steam workshop support will be implemented?
    from what i heard it will not be the case on release.
    tekken7_forum_signatur2_by_f_g_c-db39pic.jpg

  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 34,354 mod
    Any Kickstarter for a video game that isn't 7 figures either has a publisher waiting to see if there's interest through the kickstarter, or is composed of people who have no idea how much it costs to make a video game and will end up failing down the line.
    You can't ask for well-thought-out changes off day 1, week 1, or mostly even month 1 play...and that's when the game is out and everyone's in the lab.
    -Mike_Z

    Everyone (should) be mindful that if there isn't a new generation after my generation, the FGC (fighting game community) will basically become extinct, so it's important to think about the future.
    -Daigo Umehara

  • PSYCH0J0SHPSYCH0J0SH Joined: Posts: 4,662
    edited March 9
    d3v wrote: »
    Any Kickstarter for a video game that isn't 7 figures either has a publisher waiting to see if there's interest through the kickstarter, or is composed of people who have no idea how much it costs to make a video game and will end up failing down the line.

    Sage advice from someone who has never made a video game before and whose only experience with it is the lies spouted forth by a hipster douchebag who fills his game with unnecessary frivolities to bloat the development costs.

    It largely depends on who's running these things. It is true that kickstarters mostly mitigate costs and don't eliminate them but 7 figures is a blatant exaggeration. There have been lots of completed games on KS whose totals don't come anywhere even close to that.
    Post edited by PSYCH0J0SH on
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  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 34,354 mod
    PSYCH0J0SH wrote: »
    d3v wrote: »
    Any Kickstarter for a video game that isn't 7 figures either has a publisher waiting to see if there's interest through the kickstarter, or is composed of people who have no idea how much it costs to make a video game and will end up failing down the line.

    Sage advice from someone who has never made a video game before and whose only experience with it is the lies spouted forth by a hipster douchebag who fills his game with unnecessary frivolities to bloat the development costs.
    Because said "hipster douchebag" actually worked in the industry for years before working on his own game (and now his second one).

    That said, if you're so knowledgeable and wise, how about you do what Mike did and actually provide a concrete breakdown of development costs including.
    -Monthly salaries for the team for the projected duration of the project.
    -Licensing costs for software, etc.
    -Outsourcing costs for any outsourced/contractual work (music, voicework, etc.)
    -QA testing costs.
    -Certification costs if any.
    -Marketing and promotion (including any backer rewards if you're crowdfunding).
    And whatever else you may have to spend on.
    You can't ask for well-thought-out changes off day 1, week 1, or mostly even month 1 play...and that's when the game is out and everyone's in the lab.
    -Mike_Z

    Everyone (should) be mindful that if there isn't a new generation after my generation, the FGC (fighting game community) will basically become extinct, so it's important to think about the future.
    -Daigo Umehara

  • PSYCH0J0SHPSYCH0J0SH Joined: Posts: 4,662
    edited March 10
    d3v wrote: »
    PSYCH0J0SH wrote: »
    d3v wrote: »
    Any Kickstarter for a video game that isn't 7 figures either has a publisher waiting to see if there's interest through the kickstarter, or is composed of people who have no idea how much it costs to make a video game and will end up failing down the line.

    Sage advice from someone who has never made a video game before and whose only experience with it is the lies spouted forth by a hipster douchebag who fills his game with unnecessary frivolities to bloat the development costs.
    Because said "hipster douchebag" actually worked in the industry for years before working on his own game (and now his second one).

    Yes, he worked for a big company like EA that had millions to spend on a licensed game, and that convinced him that he needs to spend that much on his own games.

    His games cost a massive amount because he stuffs them with unnecessary frivolities such as excessive and redundant frames of animation (that alone easily costs him a fortune), overzealous rewards (you don't really need to offer physical goods like character statues as backer rewards) and other unnecessary bloat (music tracks are way longer than they need to be, he hires a lot of staff to do cleanup and coloring on animation, he wants every single one of his thousands of animation frames to be meticulously colored and detailed, etc.)

    A lot of the things Mike does are extravagant and unnecessary and defy common sense for indie developers. If you can't afford to make statues of your characters, don't offer them as a kickstarter reward. If you can't afford a gorillion detailed frames of animation, try to cut back on them. If you can't afford, I don't know, HIRING STUDIO FUCKING TRIGGER TO MAKE AN ENTIRE ANIME OF YOUR GAME, maybe don't ask them to do it.

    Pocket Rumble doesn't have most of these things and perhaps that's why they were able to publish their game without having to sell their bodies to science.
    Post edited by PSYCH0J0SH on
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    Swag is for girls. Class is for Maidens.

    GigaMaidens on deviantART and on twitter @GigaMaidens

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  • crotchpunchacrotchpuncha Joined: Posts: 19,658
    Sounds like Mike can afford those things.
    It's not the end of the world, but you can see it from here.
  • Evolution169Evolution169 Wake up DP is unbeatable Joined: Posts: 984
    edited March 10
    PSYCH0J0SH wrote: »
    A lot of the things Mike does are extravagant and unnecessary and defy common sense for indie developers. If you can't afford to make statues of your characters, don't offer them as a kickstarter reward. If you can't afford a gorillion detailed frames of animation, try to cut back on them. If you can't afford, I don't know, STUDIO FUCKING TRIGGER TO MAKE AN ENTIRE ANIME OF YOUR GAME, maybe don't ask them to do it.
    Some people want to make their game as polished as possible. I wish more devs were that anal about it. I know I would be if I were a dev, and I think it's a virtue.
    PSYCH0J0SH wrote: »
    A lot of the things Mike does are extravagant and unnecessary and defy common sense for indie developers.
    Mike Z seriously outclasses most indie devs when it comes to the polish of the final product. He doesn't settle for pixel art or generic 3D "looks like another Unity game" styles.

    Speaking of, how is GigaMaidens coming along?
  • CronopioCronopio ST Joined: Posts: 1,842
    edited March 10
    He doesn't settle for pixel art

    Pixel art is good to settle when you can do it right. Usually not the case with Western indies sadly.

    As for the costs, most people ignore what is needed to make a game. Sadly people believe that ridiculously low prices for indie stuff is the way to go. So a lot of kickstarters purposely aim for a low goal to avoid failure. To make a good game you need a lot of money. A few thousands won't do when you need to cover the costs of your team's salaries for a couple of years, publishing, fees, doing decent audio, etc. Otherwise your product will not be as good as it can be, or will take many years as a hobby thing.



  • PSYCH0J0SHPSYCH0J0SH Joined: Posts: 4,662
    PSYCH0J0SH wrote: »
    A lot of the things Mike does are extravagant and unnecessary and defy common sense for indie developers. If you can't afford to make statues of your characters, don't offer them as a kickstarter reward. If you can't afford a gorillion detailed frames of animation, try to cut back on them. If you can't afford, I don't know, STUDIO FUCKING TRIGGER TO MAKE AN ENTIRE ANIME OF YOUR GAME, maybe don't ask them to do it.
    Some people want to make their game as polished as possible. I wish more devs were that anal about it. I know I would be if I were a dev, and I think it's a virtue.
    PSYCH0J0SH wrote: »
    A lot of the things Mike does are extravagant and unnecessary and defy common sense for indie developers.
    Mike Z seriously outclasses most indie devs when it comes to the polish of the final product. He doesn't settle for pixel art or generic 3D "looks like another Unity game" styles.

    Speaking of, how is GigaMaidens coming along?

    Yeah, well, "polishing" things costs money. And focusing on polishing things at such an early stage of development is misguided, because it comes at the expense of actual content that makes your game more valuable. Skullgirls could've had more characters if they had dialed down the "polish" to something reasonable. The game doesn't need thousands of frames of animation per character. Games like Third Strike have nowhere near that much animation and they still look great.

    GigaMaidens is coming along slowly, but it's still on track.
    ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬

    Swag is for girls. Class is for Maidens.

    GigaMaidens on deviantART and on twitter @GigaMaidens

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  • Evolution169Evolution169 Wake up DP is unbeatable Joined: Posts: 984
    edited March 10
    Cronopio wrote: »
    He doesn't settle for pixel art
    Pixel art is good to settle when you can do it right. Usually not the case with Western indies sadly.

    As for the costs, most people ignore what is needed to make a game. Sadly people believe that ridiculously low prices for indie stuff is the way to go. So a lot of kickstarters purposely aim for a low goal to avoid failure. To make a good game you need a lot of money. A few thousands won't do when you need to cover the costs of your team's salaries for a couple of years, publishing, fees, doing decent audio, etc. Otherwise your product will not be as good as it can be, or will take many years as a hobby thing.
    I think pixel graphics are a great fit if the studio is trying to cut costs or make something feel retro, but it is a bit overdone at this point because so many indies see it as a way to cut costs and development time. I know this wasn't the case when SG was in development, but it's still hard to compare the gorgeous hand-drawn style of SG to anything with pixel graphics and say the latter looks better, unless you're specifically going for a retro look to fit a theme.

    Graphically speaking, no one is going to put Pocket Rumble or Brawlhalla in the same league with Xrd, but I think SG can definitely wow people with visuals just like Xrd can.
    PSYCH0J0SH wrote: »
    The game doesn't need thousands of frames of animation per character.
    No, it doesn't need thousands for frames per character. It was definitely a choice he made to go all out. I personally think it looks and flows better because of that choice. There aren't a lot of really smooth hand drawn games out there, so SG does tend to stand out for that reason. 3rd strike looks good for what it is, and it's smoother than most 2D fighters from the 90s, but it's still not as smooth as SG. You can say it's "good enough" or whatever, but that is still settling if you would rather it look better.

    There graphics and those thousands of animation frames in SG do have their place in the market. I don't think it was unnecessarily.
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 34,354 mod
    PSYCH0J0SH wrote: »
    d3v wrote: »
    PSYCH0J0SH wrote: »
    d3v wrote: »
    Any Kickstarter for a video game that isn't 7 figures either has a publisher waiting to see if there's interest through the kickstarter, or is composed of people who have no idea how much it costs to make a video game and will end up failing down the line.

    Sage advice from someone who has never made a video game before and whose only experience with it is the lies spouted forth by a hipster douchebag who fills his game with unnecessary frivolities to bloat the development costs.
    Because said "hipster douchebag" actually worked in the industry for years before working on his own game (and now his second one).

    Yes, he worked for a big company like EA that had millions to spend on a licensed game, and that convinced him that he needs to spend that much on his own games.

    His games cost a massive amount because he stuffs them with unnecessary frivolities such as excessive and redundant frames of animation (that alone easily costs him a fortune), overzealous rewards (you don't really need to offer physical goods like character statues as backer rewards) and other unnecessary bloat (music tracks are way longer than they need to be, he hires a lot of staff to do cleanup and coloring on animation, he wants every single one of his thousands of animation frames to be meticulously colored and detailed, etc.)

    A lot of the things Mike does are extravagant and unnecessary and defy common sense for indie developers. If you can't afford to make statues of your characters, don't offer them as a kickstarter reward. If you can't afford a gorillion detailed frames of animation, try to cut back on them. If you can't afford, I don't know, HIRING STUDIO FUCKING TRIGGER TO MAKE AN ENTIRE ANIME OF YOUR GAME, maybe don't ask them to do it.

    Pocket Rumble doesn't have most of these things and perhaps that's why they were able to publish their game without having to sell their bodies to science.
    Most of these things were stretch goals which were beyond the initial cost.

    A big part of his costs still come down to salaries, aka how much the team needs to get paid per month, plus things they need to pay contractors for necessary stuff like music, etc.
    PSYCH0J0SH wrote: »

    Yeah, well, "polishing" things costs money. And focusing on polishing things at such an early stage of development is misguided, because it comes at the expense of actual content that makes your game more valuable. Skullgirls could've had more characters if they had dialed down the "polish" to something reasonable. The game doesn't need thousands of frames of animation per character. Games like Third Strike have nowhere near that much animation and they still look great.

    GigaMaidens is coming along slowly, but it's still on track.

    Still haven't given a breakdown of your costs, at the very least how much you're paying yourself and your team (assuming you're not just working in your basements in your free time).

    You can't ask for well-thought-out changes off day 1, week 1, or mostly even month 1 play...and that's when the game is out and everyone's in the lab.
    -Mike_Z

    Everyone (should) be mindful that if there isn't a new generation after my generation, the FGC (fighting game community) will basically become extinct, so it's important to think about the future.
    -Daigo Umehara

  • CronopioCronopio ST Joined: Posts: 1,842
    I think pixel graphics are a great fit if the studio is trying to cut costs or make something feel retro, but it is a bit overdone at this point because so many indies see it as a way to cut costs and development time. I know this wasn't the case when SG was in development, but it's still hard to compare the gorgeous hand-drawn style of SG to anything with pixel graphics and say the latter looks better, unless you're specifically going for a retro look to fit a theme.

    Well yes it's pretty hard to compare Skullgirls to something like Street Fighter III, Vampire Savior, The Last Blade or Garou. Those are pixel art and look significantly better.

    No offense to Skullgirls though, they did very well for an indie game. But it irks me when I see people instantly dismiss pixel art and automatically consider high res stuff as superior just because it's high res.
  • crotchpunchacrotchpuncha Joined: Posts: 19,658
    I love Pixel art. It's art, take it for what it is, not what you want it to be. It's a graphical presentation and when done well looks hreat and is just as time consuming and effort inducing as just about any other style.

    Stop worrying if it's retro or cost cutting or whatever and look to see if it fits the product or not.
    It's not the end of the world, but you can see it from here.
  • Evolution169Evolution169 Wake up DP is unbeatable Joined: Posts: 984
    edited March 10
    Cronopio wrote: »
    I think pixel graphics are a great fit if the studio is trying to cut costs or make something feel retro, but it is a bit overdone at this point because so many indies see it as a way to cut costs and development time. I know this wasn't the case when SG was in development, but it's still hard to compare the gorgeous hand-drawn style of SG to anything with pixel graphics and say the latter looks better, unless you're specifically going for a retro look to fit a theme.

    Well yes it's pretty hard to compare Skullgirls to something like Street Fighter III, Vampire Savior, The Last Blade or Garou. Those are pixel art and look significantly better.

    No offense to Skullgirls though, they did very well for an indie game. But it irks me when I see people instantly dismiss pixel art and automatically consider high res stuff as superior just because it's high res.
    To each his own. I've never been a fan of impressionist art, and that's what pixel graphics seem like to me. Same thing for voxel graphics.

    Although I will say that I doubt anyone saw the first gameplay footage of Xrd and thought "damn, they need to go back to the low rez pixelated look of XXAC." I mean, I'm sure someone out there will say they did, but I don't remember seeing one complaint about the new high resolution style. That could be because the game is supposed to look more like anime, but I suspect that we'd see the same response if Capcom used that exact same style Xrd uses for something like a new Darkstalkers game, or even if SNK did that for a Garou or Last Blade reboot.
  • PSYCH0J0SHPSYCH0J0SH Joined: Posts: 4,662
    edited March 10
    d3v wrote: »
    PSYCH0J0SH wrote: »
    d3v wrote: »
    PSYCH0J0SH wrote: »
    d3v wrote: »
    Any Kickstarter for a video game that isn't 7 figures either has a publisher waiting to see if there's interest through the kickstarter, or is composed of people who have no idea how much it costs to make a video game and will end up failing down the line.

    Sage advice from someone who has never made a video game before and whose only experience with it is the lies spouted forth by a hipster douchebag who fills his game with unnecessary frivolities to bloat the development costs.
    Because said "hipster douchebag" actually worked in the industry for years before working on his own game (and now his second one).

    Yes, he worked for a big company like EA that had millions to spend on a licensed game, and that convinced him that he needs to spend that much on his own games.

    His games cost a massive amount because he stuffs them with unnecessary frivolities such as excessive and redundant frames of animation (that alone easily costs him a fortune), overzealous rewards (you don't really need to offer physical goods like character statues as backer rewards) and other unnecessary bloat (music tracks are way longer than they need to be, he hires a lot of staff to do cleanup and coloring on animation, he wants every single one of his thousands of animation frames to be meticulously colored and detailed, etc.)

    A lot of the things Mike does are extravagant and unnecessary and defy common sense for indie developers. If you can't afford to make statues of your characters, don't offer them as a kickstarter reward. If you can't afford a gorillion detailed frames of animation, try to cut back on them. If you can't afford, I don't know, HIRING STUDIO FUCKING TRIGGER TO MAKE AN ENTIRE ANIME OF YOUR GAME, maybe don't ask them to do it.

    Pocket Rumble doesn't have most of these things and perhaps that's why they were able to publish their game without having to sell their bodies to science.
    Most of these things were stretch goals which were beyond the initial cost.

    A big part of his costs still come down to salaries, aka how much the team needs to get paid per month, plus things they need to pay contractors for necessary stuff like music, etc.
    PSYCH0J0SH wrote: »

    Yeah, well, "polishing" things costs money. And focusing on polishing things at such an early stage of development is misguided, because it comes at the expense of actual content that makes your game more valuable. Skullgirls could've had more characters if they had dialed down the "polish" to something reasonable. The game doesn't need thousands of frames of animation per character. Games like Third Strike have nowhere near that much animation and they still look great.

    GigaMaidens is coming along slowly, but it's still on track.

    Still haven't given a breakdown of your costs, at the very least how much you're paying yourself and your team (assuming you're not just working in your basements in your free time).

    Things like an anime OVA and statuettes of your characters should not ever be stretch goals. It's wasteful and expensive, and the money you spend on producing them could go towards your game instead. Keiji Inafune promised a lot of this garbage as well. He couldn't reign it in and it's one of many reasons the quality of his game suffered as a result. These are things you should attempt to produce AFTER you make your game, only if there is interest and you have the capital to look into it. They shouldn't be part of the planning before you start making it.

    As for your other question... "Monthly salaries"? "Licensing for software"? "Marketing"? "QA testing"? Give me a break. None of this stuff exists to small teams in the pre-alpha stages of an independent game project. Mike Z has skewed your perspective on how indie development works. I'm just focused on developing the game, I don't have a legal team writing contracts or a marketing department. It's just me, my artist and whoever I commission to help us make the game.

    As is the case with most indies, I am funding it out of my back pocket and indeed creating it in my "basement" in my spare time. A lot of us do not plan things out using such a pre-meditated scheme until we're able to guarantee funding; most of us are just playing it by ear until we can get solid footing. I do what I can, put in the man hours (for which I obviously get no pay at all since it's MY project), and reach out to freelancers I can afford to help me. No two devs operate the exact same way, using the exact same methods. Most of us are just doing what we can. It's not fast or efficient but it gets us where we're going. We don't have the capital to be hiring tons of people and planning what we're going to pay them every month. My expenses are all over the place, at least for the time being. Once we secure funding THEN we plan things out.

    You seem to think that this is like a job where I'm a CEO who decides his own salary. It doesn't work like that. I pay other people to help me, with money I get elsewhere, and my pay will be the game's sales. Even if I did "pay myself" (which doesn't make sense as I'm funding it with my own money) I would just be putting that money back into the project. When I get crowdfunded, all that money will go into the game.
    Post edited by PSYCH0J0SH on
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    Swag is for girls. Class is for Maidens.

    GigaMaidens on deviantART and on twitter @GigaMaidens

    ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬



  • CronopioCronopio ST Joined: Posts: 1,842
    edited March 10
    Cronopio wrote: »
    I think pixel graphics are a great fit if the studio is trying to cut costs or make something feel retro, but it is a bit overdone at this point because so many indies see it as a way to cut costs and development time. I know this wasn't the case when SG was in development, but it's still hard to compare the gorgeous hand-drawn style of SG to anything with pixel graphics and say the latter looks better, unless you're specifically going for a retro look to fit a theme.

    Well yes it's pretty hard to compare Skullgirls to something like Street Fighter III, Vampire Savior, The Last Blade or Garou. Those are pixel art and look significantly better.

    No offense to Skullgirls though, they did very well for an indie game. But it irks me when I see people instantly dismiss pixel art and automatically consider high res stuff as superior just because it's high res.
    To each his own. I've never been a fan of impressionist art, and that's what pixel graphics seem like to me. Same thing for voxel graphics.

    Although I will say that I doubt anyone saw the first gameplay footage of Xrd and thought "damn, they need to go back to the low rez pixelated look of XXAC." I mean, I'm sure someone out there will say they did, but I don't remember seeing one complaint about the new high resolution style. That could be because the game is supposed to look more like anime, but I suspect that we'd see the same response if Capcom used that exact same style Xrd uses for something like a new Darkstalkers game, or even if SNK did that for a Garou or Last Blade reboot.

    GG is not really pixel art. They just happened to use pixels, but would have used straight up anime from the start if able. They never made full use of the pixel art medium. SNK and Capcom, on the other hand, achieved things only pixel art can achieve in their games. The rich texturing of SNK clothing, or something like Metal Slug, compared to the flat cartoon look of SG or GG is a good example.

    SNK did go for pixel art until recently, even stating that they did so out of love for the medium. The problem is that to the average person, pixel art is just pixelated stuff of the past, ignoring the unique strenghts of the medium. It's easier to wow people with higher resoultion regardless of quality than skillful pixel art.

    Relevant read

    http://www.dinofarmgames.com/a-pixel-artist-renounces-pixel-art/
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 34,354 mod
    PSYCH0J0SH wrote: »
    d3v wrote: »
    PSYCH0J0SH wrote: »
    d3v wrote: »
    PSYCH0J0SH wrote: »
    d3v wrote: »
    Any Kickstarter for a video game that isn't 7 figures either has a publisher waiting to see if there's interest through the kickstarter, or is composed of people who have no idea how much it costs to make a video game and will end up failing down the line.

    Sage advice from someone who has never made a video game before and whose only experience with it is the lies spouted forth by a hipster douchebag who fills his game with unnecessary frivolities to bloat the development costs.
    Because said "hipster douchebag" actually worked in the industry for years before working on his own game (and now his second one).

    Yes, he worked for a big company like EA that had millions to spend on a licensed game, and that convinced him that he needs to spend that much on his own games.

    His games cost a massive amount because he stuffs them with unnecessary frivolities such as excessive and redundant frames of animation (that alone easily costs him a fortune), overzealous rewards (you don't really need to offer physical goods like character statues as backer rewards) and other unnecessary bloat (music tracks are way longer than they need to be, he hires a lot of staff to do cleanup and coloring on animation, he wants every single one of his thousands of animation frames to be meticulously colored and detailed, etc.)

    A lot of the things Mike does are extravagant and unnecessary and defy common sense for indie developers. If you can't afford to make statues of your characters, don't offer them as a kickstarter reward. If you can't afford a gorillion detailed frames of animation, try to cut back on them. If you can't afford, I don't know, HIRING STUDIO FUCKING TRIGGER TO MAKE AN ENTIRE ANIME OF YOUR GAME, maybe don't ask them to do it.

    Pocket Rumble doesn't have most of these things and perhaps that's why they were able to publish their game without having to sell their bodies to science.
    Most of these things were stretch goals which were beyond the initial cost.

    A big part of his costs still come down to salaries, aka how much the team needs to get paid per month, plus things they need to pay contractors for necessary stuff like music, etc.
    PSYCH0J0SH wrote: »

    Yeah, well, "polishing" things costs money. And focusing on polishing things at such an early stage of development is misguided, because it comes at the expense of actual content that makes your game more valuable. Skullgirls could've had more characters if they had dialed down the "polish" to something reasonable. The game doesn't need thousands of frames of animation per character. Games like Third Strike have nowhere near that much animation and they still look great.

    GigaMaidens is coming along slowly, but it's still on track.

    Still haven't given a breakdown of your costs, at the very least how much you're paying yourself and your team (assuming you're not just working in your basements in your free time).

    Things like an anime OVA and statuettes of your characters should not ever be stretch goals. It's wasteful and expensive, and the money you spend on producing them could go towards your game instead. Keiji Inafune promised a lot of this garbage as well. He couldn't reign it in and it's one of many reasons the quality of his game suffered as a result. These are things you should attempt to produce AFTER you make your game, only if there is interest and you have the capital to look into it. They shouldn't be part of the planning before you start making it.

    As for your other question... "Monthly salaries"? "Licensing for software"? "Marketing"? "QA testing"? Give me a break. None of this stuff exists to small teams in the pre-alpha stages of an independent game project. Mike Z has skewed your perspective on how indie development works. I'm just focused on developing the game, I don't have a legal team writing contracts or a marketing department. It's just me, my artist and whoever I commission to help us make the game.

    As is the case with most indies, I am funding it out of my back pocket and indeed creating it in my "basement" in my spare time. A lot of us do not plan things out using such a pre-meditated scheme until we're able to guarantee funding; most of us are just playing it by ear until we can get solid footing. I do what I can, put in the man hours (for which I obviously get no pay at all since it's MY project), and reach out to freelancers I can afford to help me. No two devs operate the exact same way, using the exact same methods. Most of us are just doing what we can. It's not fast or efficient but it gets us where we're going. We don't have the capital to be hiring tons of people and planning what we're going to pay them every month. My expenses are all over the place, at least for the time being. Once we secure funding THEN we plan things out.

    You seem to think that this is like a job where I'm a CEO who decides his own salary. It doesn't work like that. I pay other people to help me, with money I get elsewhere, and my pay will be the game's sales. Even if I did "pay myself" (which doesn't make sense as I'm funding it with my own money) I would just be putting that money back into the project. When I get crowdfunded, all that money will go into the game.

    So yeah, you have no right to talk shit about Lab Zero/MikeZ or anything people have to say about how much video games cost to make, because you haven't actually gotten to the point where you need to figure out how much your shit is actually going to cost.
    You can't ask for well-thought-out changes off day 1, week 1, or mostly even month 1 play...and that's when the game is out and everyone's in the lab.
    -Mike_Z

    Everyone (should) be mindful that if there isn't a new generation after my generation, the FGC (fighting game community) will basically become extinct, so it's important to think about the future.
    -Daigo Umehara

  • PSYCH0J0SHPSYCH0J0SH Joined: Posts: 4,662
    edited March 11
    d3v wrote: »
    PSYCH0J0SH wrote: »
    d3v wrote: »
    PSYCH0J0SH wrote: »
    d3v wrote: »
    PSYCH0J0SH wrote: »
    d3v wrote: »
    Any Kickstarter for a video game that isn't 7 figures either has a publisher waiting to see if there's interest through the kickstarter, or is composed of people who have no idea how much it costs to make a video game and will end up failing down the line.

    Sage advice from someone who has never made a video game before and whose only experience with it is the lies spouted forth by a hipster douchebag who fills his game with unnecessary frivolities to bloat the development costs.
    Because said "hipster douchebag" actually worked in the industry for years before working on his own game (and now his second one).

    Yes, he worked for a big company like EA that had millions to spend on a licensed game, and that convinced him that he needs to spend that much on his own games.

    His games cost a massive amount because he stuffs them with unnecessary frivolities such as excessive and redundant frames of animation (that alone easily costs him a fortune), overzealous rewards (you don't really need to offer physical goods like character statues as backer rewards) and other unnecessary bloat (music tracks are way longer than they need to be, he hires a lot of staff to do cleanup and coloring on animation, he wants every single one of his thousands of animation frames to be meticulously colored and detailed, etc.)

    A lot of the things Mike does are extravagant and unnecessary and defy common sense for indie developers. If you can't afford to make statues of your characters, don't offer them as a kickstarter reward. If you can't afford a gorillion detailed frames of animation, try to cut back on them. If you can't afford, I don't know, HIRING STUDIO FUCKING TRIGGER TO MAKE AN ENTIRE ANIME OF YOUR GAME, maybe don't ask them to do it.

    Pocket Rumble doesn't have most of these things and perhaps that's why they were able to publish their game without having to sell their bodies to science.
    Most of these things were stretch goals which were beyond the initial cost.

    A big part of his costs still come down to salaries, aka how much the team needs to get paid per month, plus things they need to pay contractors for necessary stuff like music, etc.
    PSYCH0J0SH wrote: »

    Yeah, well, "polishing" things costs money. And focusing on polishing things at such an early stage of development is misguided, because it comes at the expense of actual content that makes your game more valuable. Skullgirls could've had more characters if they had dialed down the "polish" to something reasonable. The game doesn't need thousands of frames of animation per character. Games like Third Strike have nowhere near that much animation and they still look great.

    GigaMaidens is coming along slowly, but it's still on track.

    Still haven't given a breakdown of your costs, at the very least how much you're paying yourself and your team (assuming you're not just working in your basements in your free time).

    Things like an anime OVA and statuettes of your characters should not ever be stretch goals. It's wasteful and expensive, and the money you spend on producing them could go towards your game instead. Keiji Inafune promised a lot of this garbage as well. He couldn't reign it in and it's one of many reasons the quality of his game suffered as a result. These are things you should attempt to produce AFTER you make your game, only if there is interest and you have the capital to look into it. They shouldn't be part of the planning before you start making it.

    As for your other question... "Monthly salaries"? "Licensing for software"? "Marketing"? "QA testing"? Give me a break. None of this stuff exists to small teams in the pre-alpha stages of an independent game project. Mike Z has skewed your perspective on how indie development works. I'm just focused on developing the game, I don't have a legal team writing contracts or a marketing department. It's just me, my artist and whoever I commission to help us make the game.

    As is the case with most indies, I am funding it out of my back pocket and indeed creating it in my "basement" in my spare time. A lot of us do not plan things out using such a pre-meditated scheme until we're able to guarantee funding; most of us are just playing it by ear until we can get solid footing. I do what I can, put in the man hours (for which I obviously get no pay at all since it's MY project), and reach out to freelancers I can afford to help me. No two devs operate the exact same way, using the exact same methods. Most of us are just doing what we can. It's not fast or efficient but it gets us where we're going. We don't have the capital to be hiring tons of people and planning what we're going to pay them every month. My expenses are all over the place, at least for the time being. Once we secure funding THEN we plan things out.

    You seem to think that this is like a job where I'm a CEO who decides his own salary. It doesn't work like that. I pay other people to help me, with money I get elsewhere, and my pay will be the game's sales. Even if I did "pay myself" (which doesn't make sense as I'm funding it with my own money) I would just be putting that money back into the project. When I get crowdfunded, all that money will go into the game.

    So yeah, you have no right to talk shit about Lab Zero/MikeZ or anything people have to say about how much video games cost to make, because you haven't actually gotten to the point where you need to figure out how much your shit is actually going to cost.

    Total expenses can't possibly be calculated at such an early stage of development. What I do know for a fact at this point is that it's not going to cost millions of dollars. If most indie devs had that kind of money we would be making MAGIC happen. Not everyone is as wasteful as your hero Mike Z.

    Of course the notion that I have no right to talk about it is absurd. If that were the case, then you're in even less of a position to talk since you've never even made a game and are only going by Mike's word.

    Like I said, many devs have released games that don't come close to 7 figures. Their mere existence is enough to prove you wrong.

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    Swag is for girls. Class is for Maidens.

    GigaMaidens on deviantART and on twitter @GigaMaidens

    ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬



  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 34,354 mod
    edited March 11
    PSYCH0J0SH wrote: »
    d3v wrote: »
    PSYCH0J0SH wrote: »
    d3v wrote: »
    PSYCH0J0SH wrote: »
    d3v wrote: »
    PSYCH0J0SH wrote: »
    d3v wrote: »
    Any Kickstarter for a video game that isn't 7 figures either has a publisher waiting to see if there's interest through the kickstarter, or is composed of people who have no idea how much it costs to make a video game and will end up failing down the line.

    Sage advice from someone who has never made a video game before and whose only experience with it is the lies spouted forth by a hipster douchebag who fills his game with unnecessary frivolities to bloat the development costs.
    Because said "hipster douchebag" actually worked in the industry for years before working on his own game (and now his second one).

    Yes, he worked for a big company like EA that had millions to spend on a licensed game, and that convinced him that he needs to spend that much on his own games.

    His games cost a massive amount because he stuffs them with unnecessary frivolities such as excessive and redundant frames of animation (that alone easily costs him a fortune), overzealous rewards (you don't really need to offer physical goods like character statues as backer rewards) and other unnecessary bloat (music tracks are way longer than they need to be, he hires a lot of staff to do cleanup and coloring on animation, he wants every single one of his thousands of animation frames to be meticulously colored and detailed, etc.)

    A lot of the things Mike does are extravagant and unnecessary and defy common sense for indie developers. If you can't afford to make statues of your characters, don't offer them as a kickstarter reward. If you can't afford a gorillion detailed frames of animation, try to cut back on them. If you can't afford, I don't know, HIRING STUDIO FUCKING TRIGGER TO MAKE AN ENTIRE ANIME OF YOUR GAME, maybe don't ask them to do it.

    Pocket Rumble doesn't have most of these things and perhaps that's why they were able to publish their game without having to sell their bodies to science.
    Most of these things were stretch goals which were beyond the initial cost.

    A big part of his costs still come down to salaries, aka how much the team needs to get paid per month, plus things they need to pay contractors for necessary stuff like music, etc.
    PSYCH0J0SH wrote: »

    Yeah, well, "polishing" things costs money. And focusing on polishing things at such an early stage of development is misguided, because it comes at the expense of actual content that makes your game more valuable. Skullgirls could've had more characters if they had dialed down the "polish" to something reasonable. The game doesn't need thousands of frames of animation per character. Games like Third Strike have nowhere near that much animation and they still look great.

    GigaMaidens is coming along slowly, but it's still on track.

    Still haven't given a breakdown of your costs, at the very least how much you're paying yourself and your team (assuming you're not just working in your basements in your free time).

    Things like an anime OVA and statuettes of your characters should not ever be stretch goals. It's wasteful and expensive, and the money you spend on producing them could go towards your game instead. Keiji Inafune promised a lot of this garbage as well. He couldn't reign it in and it's one of many reasons the quality of his game suffered as a result. These are things you should attempt to produce AFTER you make your game, only if there is interest and you have the capital to look into it. They shouldn't be part of the planning before you start making it.

    As for your other question... "Monthly salaries"? "Licensing for software"? "Marketing"? "QA testing"? Give me a break. None of this stuff exists to small teams in the pre-alpha stages of an independent game project. Mike Z has skewed your perspective on how indie development works. I'm just focused on developing the game, I don't have a legal team writing contracts or a marketing department. It's just me, my artist and whoever I commission to help us make the game.

    As is the case with most indies, I am funding it out of my back pocket and indeed creating it in my "basement" in my spare time. A lot of us do not plan things out using such a pre-meditated scheme until we're able to guarantee funding; most of us are just playing it by ear until we can get solid footing. I do what I can, put in the man hours (for which I obviously get no pay at all since it's MY project), and reach out to freelancers I can afford to help me. No two devs operate the exact same way, using the exact same methods. Most of us are just doing what we can. It's not fast or efficient but it gets us where we're going. We don't have the capital to be hiring tons of people and planning what we're going to pay them every month. My expenses are all over the place, at least for the time being. Once we secure funding THEN we plan things out.

    You seem to think that this is like a job where I'm a CEO who decides his own salary. It doesn't work like that. I pay other people to help me, with money I get elsewhere, and my pay will be the game's sales. Even if I did "pay myself" (which doesn't make sense as I'm funding it with my own money) I would just be putting that money back into the project. When I get crowdfunded, all that money will go into the game.

    So yeah, you have no right to talk shit about Lab Zero/MikeZ or anything people have to say about how much video games cost to make, because you haven't actually gotten to the point where you need to figure out how much your shit is actually going to cost.

    What I do know for a fact at this point is that it's not going to cost millions of dollars. Unlike your hero Mike Z I'm not as wasteful with my money. I would be able to make that money stretch much farther if I had it.
    How? By underpaying your staff? Working under minimum wage?

    And thinking that you can stretch the money out is probably the biggest mistake of a lot of teams that go to crowdfunding. Why do you think that so many of these fail because the devs either mismanaged their funds or straight up ran out of money.

    PSYCH0J0SH wrote: »
    Of course the notion that I have no right to talk about it is absurd. If that were the case, then you're in even less of a position to talk since you've never even made a game and are only going by Mike Z's word.
    Worked in software dev (not video game related) before, and I've done budgets for these things, so I'm familiar with having to defend large budgets simply by saying "this is how much you're paying these people per day/month".
    You can't ask for well-thought-out changes off day 1, week 1, or mostly even month 1 play...and that's when the game is out and everyone's in the lab.
    -Mike_Z

    Everyone (should) be mindful that if there isn't a new generation after my generation, the FGC (fighting game community) will basically become extinct, so it's important to think about the future.
    -Daigo Umehara

  • PSYCH0J0SHPSYCH0J0SH Joined: Posts: 4,662
    edited March 11
    d3v wrote: »
    PSYCH0J0SH wrote: »
    d3v wrote: »
    PSYCH0J0SH wrote: »
    d3v wrote: »
    PSYCH0J0SH wrote: »
    d3v wrote: »
    PSYCH0J0SH wrote: »
    d3v wrote: »
    Any Kickstarter for a video game that isn't 7 figures either has a publisher waiting to see if there's interest through the kickstarter, or is composed of people who have no idea how much it costs to make a video game and will end up failing down the line.

    Sage advice from someone who has never made a video game before and whose only experience with it is the lies spouted forth by a hipster douchebag who fills his game with unnecessary frivolities to bloat the development costs.
    Because said "hipster douchebag" actually worked in the industry for years before working on his own game (and now his second one).

    Yes, he worked for a big company like EA that had millions to spend on a licensed game, and that convinced him that he needs to spend that much on his own games.

    His games cost a massive amount because he stuffs them with unnecessary frivolities such as excessive and redundant frames of animation (that alone easily costs him a fortune), overzealous rewards (you don't really need to offer physical goods like character statues as backer rewards) and other unnecessary bloat (music tracks are way longer than they need to be, he hires a lot of staff to do cleanup and coloring on animation, he wants every single one of his thousands of animation frames to be meticulously colored and detailed, etc.)

    A lot of the things Mike does are extravagant and unnecessary and defy common sense for indie developers. If you can't afford to make statues of your characters, don't offer them as a kickstarter reward. If you can't afford a gorillion detailed frames of animation, try to cut back on them. If you can't afford, I don't know, HIRING STUDIO FUCKING TRIGGER TO MAKE AN ENTIRE ANIME OF YOUR GAME, maybe don't ask them to do it.

    Pocket Rumble doesn't have most of these things and perhaps that's why they were able to publish their game without having to sell their bodies to science.
    Most of these things were stretch goals which were beyond the initial cost.

    A big part of his costs still come down to salaries, aka how much the team needs to get paid per month, plus things they need to pay contractors for necessary stuff like music, etc.
    PSYCH0J0SH wrote: »

    Yeah, well, "polishing" things costs money. And focusing on polishing things at such an early stage of development is misguided, because it comes at the expense of actual content that makes your game more valuable. Skullgirls could've had more characters if they had dialed down the "polish" to something reasonable. The game doesn't need thousands of frames of animation per character. Games like Third Strike have nowhere near that much animation and they still look great.

    GigaMaidens is coming along slowly, but it's still on track.

    Still haven't given a breakdown of your costs, at the very least how much you're paying yourself and your team (assuming you're not just working in your basements in your free time).

    Things like an anime OVA and statuettes of your characters should not ever be stretch goals. It's wasteful and expensive, and the money you spend on producing them could go towards your game instead. Keiji Inafune promised a lot of this garbage as well. He couldn't reign it in and it's one of many reasons the quality of his game suffered as a result. These are things you should attempt to produce AFTER you make your game, only if there is interest and you have the capital to look into it. They shouldn't be part of the planning before you start making it.

    As for your other question... "Monthly salaries"? "Licensing for software"? "Marketing"? "QA testing"? Give me a break. None of this stuff exists to small teams in the pre-alpha stages of an independent game project. Mike Z has skewed your perspective on how indie development works. I'm just focused on developing the game, I don't have a legal team writing contracts or a marketing department. It's just me, my artist and whoever I commission to help us make the game.

    As is the case with most indies, I am funding it out of my back pocket and indeed creating it in my "basement" in my spare time. A lot of us do not plan things out using such a pre-meditated scheme until we're able to guarantee funding; most of us are just playing it by ear until we can get solid footing. I do what I can, put in the man hours (for which I obviously get no pay at all since it's MY project), and reach out to freelancers I can afford to help me. No two devs operate the exact same way, using the exact same methods. Most of us are just doing what we can. It's not fast or efficient but it gets us where we're going. We don't have the capital to be hiring tons of people and planning what we're going to pay them every month. My expenses are all over the place, at least for the time being. Once we secure funding THEN we plan things out.

    You seem to think that this is like a job where I'm a CEO who decides his own salary. It doesn't work like that. I pay other people to help me, with money I get elsewhere, and my pay will be the game's sales. Even if I did "pay myself" (which doesn't make sense as I'm funding it with my own money) I would just be putting that money back into the project. When I get crowdfunded, all that money will go into the game.

    So yeah, you have no right to talk shit about Lab Zero/MikeZ or anything people have to say about how much video games cost to make, because you haven't actually gotten to the point where you need to figure out how much your shit is actually going to cost.

    What I do know for a fact at this point is that it's not going to cost millions of dollars. IUnlike your hero Mike Z I'm not as wasteful with my money. I would be able to make that money stretch much farther if I had it.
    How? By underpaying your staff? Working under minimum wage?
    PSYCH0J0SH wrote: »
    Of course the notion that I have no right to talk about it is absurd. If that were the case, then you're in even less of a position to talk since you've never even made a game and are only going by Mike Z's word.
    Worked in software dev (not video game related) before, and I've done budgets for these things, so I'm familiar with having to defend large budgets simply by saying "this is how much you're paying these people per day/month".

    Considering I get paid nothing for working on my own project, yes, I'd say that's "under minimum wage". And freelancers are usually quite affordable for indie devs. I pay them by the hour, and they do quality work. I don't underpay them, if anything the person you idolize overpays his staff, and hires too many at once.

    Those videos you linked aren't really about budgeting trouble, they're more about people who ran away with the money they got. I think Mike could tell you more about that since his money was stolen by Konami.

    Kaiju Combat is an example on one of those videos. Are you kidding me? Those people thought it would be a good idea to use the money to create a card game to advertise the video game. What a joke. Most of these aren't conducive to proving your point.
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    Swag is for girls. Class is for Maidens.

    GigaMaidens on deviantART and on twitter @GigaMaidens

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  • Evolution169Evolution169 Wake up DP is unbeatable Joined: Posts: 984
    edited March 11
    PSYCH0J0SH wrote: »
    Considering I get paid nothing for working on my own project, yes, I'd say that's "under minimum wage".
    If you want to work a regular job and developer in your spare time or support yourself with handouts, that's your choice. I'm sure many indie devs would rather not go that route, and you can't blame. And no one should be working for minimum wage if they have a marketable skill.
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 34,354 mod
    PSYCH0J0SH wrote: »
    d3v wrote: »
    PSYCH0J0SH wrote: »
    d3v wrote: »
    PSYCH0J0SH wrote: »
    d3v wrote: »
    PSYCH0J0SH wrote: »
    d3v wrote: »
    PSYCH0J0SH wrote: »
    d3v wrote: »
    Any Kickstarter for a video game that isn't 7 figures either has a publisher waiting to see if there's interest through the kickstarter, or is composed of people who have no idea how much it costs to make a video game and will end up failing down the line.

    Sage advice from someone who has never made a video game before and whose only experience with it is the lies spouted forth by a hipster douchebag who fills his game with unnecessary frivolities to bloat the development costs.
    Because said "hipster douchebag" actually worked in the industry for years before working on his own game (and now his second one).

    Yes, he worked for a big company like EA that had millions to spend on a licensed game, and that convinced him that he needs to spend that much on his own games.

    His games cost a massive amount because he stuffs them with unnecessary frivolities such as excessive and redundant frames of animation (that alone easily costs him a fortune), overzealous rewards (you don't really need to offer physical goods like character statues as backer rewards) and other unnecessary bloat (music tracks are way longer than they need to be, he hires a lot of staff to do cleanup and coloring on animation, he wants every single one of his thousands of animation frames to be meticulously colored and detailed, etc.)

    A lot of the things Mike does are extravagant and unnecessary and defy common sense for indie developers. If you can't afford to make statues of your characters, don't offer them as a kickstarter reward. If you can't afford a gorillion detailed frames of animation, try to cut back on them. If you can't afford, I don't know, HIRING STUDIO FUCKING TRIGGER TO MAKE AN ENTIRE ANIME OF YOUR GAME, maybe don't ask them to do it.

    Pocket Rumble doesn't have most of these things and perhaps that's why they were able to publish their game without having to sell their bodies to science.
    Most of these things were stretch goals which were beyond the initial cost.

    A big part of his costs still come down to salaries, aka how much the team needs to get paid per month, plus things they need to pay contractors for necessary stuff like music, etc.
    PSYCH0J0SH wrote: »

    Yeah, well, "polishing" things costs money. And focusing on polishing things at such an early stage of development is misguided, because it comes at the expense of actual content that makes your game more valuable. Skullgirls could've had more characters if they had dialed down the "polish" to something reasonable. The game doesn't need thousands of frames of animation per character. Games like Third Strike have nowhere near that much animation and they still look great.

    GigaMaidens is coming along slowly, but it's still on track.

    Still haven't given a breakdown of your costs, at the very least how much you're paying yourself and your team (assuming you're not just working in your basements in your free time).

    Things like an anime OVA and statuettes of your characters should not ever be stretch goals. It's wasteful and expensive, and the money you spend on producing them could go towards your game instead. Keiji Inafune promised a lot of this garbage as well. He couldn't reign it in and it's one of many reasons the quality of his game suffered as a result. These are things you should attempt to produce AFTER you make your game, only if there is interest and you have the capital to look into it. They shouldn't be part of the planning before you start making it.

    As for your other question... "Monthly salaries"? "Licensing for software"? "Marketing"? "QA testing"? Give me a break. None of this stuff exists to small teams in the pre-alpha stages of an independent game project. Mike Z has skewed your perspective on how indie development works. I'm just focused on developing the game, I don't have a legal team writing contracts or a marketing department. It's just me, my artist and whoever I commission to help us make the game.

    As is the case with most indies, I am funding it out of my back pocket and indeed creating it in my "basement" in my spare time. A lot of us do not plan things out using such a pre-meditated scheme until we're able to guarantee funding; most of us are just playing it by ear until we can get solid footing. I do what I can, put in the man hours (for which I obviously get no pay at all since it's MY project), and reach out to freelancers I can afford to help me. No two devs operate the exact same way, using the exact same methods. Most of us are just doing what we can. It's not fast or efficient but it gets us where we're going. We don't have the capital to be hiring tons of people and planning what we're going to pay them every month. My expenses are all over the place, at least for the time being. Once we secure funding THEN we plan things out.

    You seem to think that this is like a job where I'm a CEO who decides his own salary. It doesn't work like that. I pay other people to help me, with money I get elsewhere, and my pay will be the game's sales. Even if I did "pay myself" (which doesn't make sense as I'm funding it with my own money) I would just be putting that money back into the project. When I get crowdfunded, all that money will go into the game.

    So yeah, you have no right to talk shit about Lab Zero/MikeZ or anything people have to say about how much video games cost to make, because you haven't actually gotten to the point where you need to figure out how much your shit is actually going to cost.

    What I do know for a fact at this point is that it's not going to cost millions of dollars. IUnlike your hero Mike Z I'm not as wasteful with my money. I would be able to make that money stretch much farther if I had it.
    How? By underpaying your staff? Working under minimum wage?
    PSYCH0J0SH wrote: »
    Of course the notion that I have no right to talk about it is absurd. If that were the case, then you're in even less of a position to talk since you've never even made a game and are only going by Mike Z's word.
    Worked in software dev (not video game related) before, and I've done budgets for these things, so I'm familiar with having to defend large budgets simply by saying "this is how much you're paying these people per day/month".

    Considering I get paid nothing for working on my own project, yes, I'd say that's "under minimum wage". And freelancers are usually quite affordable for indie devs. I pay them by the hour, and they do quality work. I don't underpay them, if anything the person you idolize overpays his staff, and hires too many at once.

    And what happens then when you actually go into full production, when you actually have to get the game out within a certain amount of time instead of just working on it on your free time? When you actually have to pay yourself since you're working full time on it? Or have you even thought that far ahead.

    Which leads us back to the point since we are talking about budgets for crowdfunded games, since budgets actually mean that a game does have to get completed in a certain amount of time before the funding runs out (and again, is the reason why so many of these crowd funded games fail - because the people behind them don't realize how much it actually costs to make these games).
    You can't ask for well-thought-out changes off day 1, week 1, or mostly even month 1 play...and that's when the game is out and everyone's in the lab.
    -Mike_Z

    Everyone (should) be mindful that if there isn't a new generation after my generation, the FGC (fighting game community) will basically become extinct, so it's important to think about the future.
    -Daigo Umehara

  • PSYCH0J0SHPSYCH0J0SH Joined: Posts: 4,662
    edited March 11
    PSYCH0J0SH wrote: »
    Considering I get paid nothing for working on my own project, yes, I'd say that's "under minimum wage".
    If you want to work a regular job and developer in your spare time or support yourself with handouts, that's your choice. I'm sure many indie devs would rather not go that route, and you can't blame. And no one should be working for minimum wage if they have a marketable skill.

    Sure, that's fair. For me though it's just a passion project and I don't really complain about not getting paid anything to work on it. I'm just happy to see it getting done. I know there's a lot more people in a similar position.
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    Swag is for girls. Class is for Maidens.

    GigaMaidens on deviantART and on twitter @GigaMaidens

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  • PSYCH0J0SHPSYCH0J0SH Joined: Posts: 4,662
    edited March 11
    d3v wrote: »
    PSYCH0J0SH wrote: »
    d3v wrote: »
    PSYCH0J0SH wrote: »
    d3v wrote: »
    PSYCH0J0SH wrote: »
    d3v wrote: »
    PSYCH0J0SH wrote: »
    d3v wrote: »
    PSYCH0J0SH wrote: »
    d3v wrote: »
    Any Kickstarter for a video game that isn't 7 figures either has a publisher waiting to see if there's interest through the kickstarter, or is composed of people who have no idea how much it costs to make a video game and will end up failing down the line.

    Sage advice from someone who has never made a video game before and whose only experience with it is the lies spouted forth by a hipster douchebag who fills his game with unnecessary frivolities to bloat the development costs.
    Because said "hipster douchebag" actually worked in the industry for years before working on his own game (and now his second one).

    Yes, he worked for a big company like EA that had millions to spend on a licensed game, and that convinced him that he needs to spend that much on his own games.

    His games cost a massive amount because he stuffs them with unnecessary frivolities such as excessive and redundant frames of animation (that alone easily costs him a fortune), overzealous rewards (you don't really need to offer physical goods like character statues as backer rewards) and other unnecessary bloat (music tracks are way longer than they need to be, he hires a lot of staff to do cleanup and coloring on animation, he wants every single one of his thousands of animation frames to be meticulously colored and detailed, etc.)

    A lot of the things Mike does are extravagant and unnecessary and defy common sense for indie developers. If you can't afford to make statues of your characters, don't offer them as a kickstarter reward. If you can't afford a gorillion detailed frames of animation, try to cut back on them. If you can't afford, I don't know, HIRING STUDIO FUCKING TRIGGER TO MAKE AN ENTIRE ANIME OF YOUR GAME, maybe don't ask them to do it.

    Pocket Rumble doesn't have most of these things and perhaps that's why they were able to publish their game without having to sell their bodies to science.
    Most of these things were stretch goals which were beyond the initial cost.

    A big part of his costs still come down to salaries, aka how much the team needs to get paid per month, plus things they need to pay contractors for necessary stuff like music, etc.
    PSYCH0J0SH wrote: »

    Yeah, well, "polishing" things costs money. And focusing on polishing things at such an early stage of development is misguided, because it comes at the expense of actual content that makes your game more valuable. Skullgirls could've had more characters if they had dialed down the "polish" to something reasonable. The game doesn't need thousands of frames of animation per character. Games like Third Strike have nowhere near that much animation and they still look great.

    GigaMaidens is coming along slowly, but it's still on track.

    Still haven't given a breakdown of your costs, at the very least how much you're paying yourself and your team (assuming you're not just working in your basements in your free time).

    Things like an anime OVA and statuettes of your characters should not ever be stretch goals. It's wasteful and expensive, and the money you spend on producing them could go towards your game instead. Keiji Inafune promised a lot of this garbage as well. He couldn't reign it in and it's one of many reasons the quality of his game suffered as a result. These are things you should attempt to produce AFTER you make your game, only if there is interest and you have the capital to look into it. They shouldn't be part of the planning before you start making it.

    As for your other question... "Monthly salaries"? "Licensing for software"? "Marketing"? "QA testing"? Give me a break. None of this stuff exists to small teams in the pre-alpha stages of an independent game project. Mike Z has skewed your perspective on how indie development works. I'm just focused on developing the game, I don't have a legal team writing contracts or a marketing department. It's just me, my artist and whoever I commission to help us make the game.

    As is the case with most indies, I am funding it out of my back pocket and indeed creating it in my "basement" in my spare time. A lot of us do not plan things out using such a pre-meditated scheme until we're able to guarantee funding; most of us are just playing it by ear until we can get solid footing. I do what I can, put in the man hours (for which I obviously get no pay at all since it's MY project), and reach out to freelancers I can afford to help me. No two devs operate the exact same way, using the exact same methods. Most of us are just doing what we can. It's not fast or efficient but it gets us where we're going. We don't have the capital to be hiring tons of people and planning what we're going to pay them every month. My expenses are all over the place, at least for the time being. Once we secure funding THEN we plan things out.

    You seem to think that this is like a job where I'm a CEO who decides his own salary. It doesn't work like that. I pay other people to help me, with money I get elsewhere, and my pay will be the game's sales. Even if I did "pay myself" (which doesn't make sense as I'm funding it with my own money) I would just be putting that money back into the project. When I get crowdfunded, all that money will go into the game.

    So yeah, you have no right to talk shit about Lab Zero/MikeZ or anything people have to say about how much video games cost to make, because you haven't actually gotten to the point where you need to figure out how much your shit is actually going to cost.

    What I do know for a fact at this point is that it's not going to cost millions of dollars. IUnlike your hero Mike Z I'm not as wasteful with my money. I would be able to make that money stretch much farther if I had it.
    How? By underpaying your staff? Working under minimum wage?
    PSYCH0J0SH wrote: »
    Of course the notion that I have no right to talk about it is absurd. If that were the case, then you're in even less of a position to talk since you've never even made a game and are only going by Mike Z's word.
    Worked in software dev (not video game related) before, and I've done budgets for these things, so I'm familiar with having to defend large budgets simply by saying "this is how much you're paying these people per day/month".

    Considering I get paid nothing for working on my own project, yes, I'd say that's "under minimum wage". And freelancers are usually quite affordable for indie devs. I pay them by the hour, and they do quality work. I don't underpay them, if anything the person you idolize overpays his staff, and hires too many at once.

    And what happens then when you actually go into full production, when you actually have to get the game out within a certain amount of time instead of just working on it on your free time? When you actually have to pay yourself since you're working full time on it? Or have you even thought that far ahead.

    Which leads us back to the point since we are talking about budgets for crowdfunded games, since budgets actually mean that a game does have to get completed in a certain amount of time before the funding runs out (and again, is the reason why so many of these crowd funded games fail - because the people behind them don't realize how much it actually costs to make these games).

    Again, the examples in those videos you linked completely fail to illustrate your point. Most of them are about mismanagement or misappropriation of funds, and in several of them money wasn't even the issue, it was more about legal troubles or the deaths of staff members.

    You obviously didn't read my post as I said quite clearly that putting together a payment scheme is for after one has secured funding. There is nothing complicated about it. I can take all the time I need with the game and I don't have to pay myself as it's not my only source of income. If you knew anything about Kickstarter you'd know that deadlines set by KS are hardly deadlines at all. I plan to take all the time I need to finish it without being rushed by an arbitrary deadline. It's different when you're working for a huge company and the deadline is the last word. I'm free to set my own deadlines and move them if I have to.
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    Swag is for girls. Class is for Maidens.

    GigaMaidens on deviantART and on twitter @GigaMaidens

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  • Plaid_UnicornPlaid_Unicorn Joined: Posts: 8,240
    So about that switch release
    Just because I lost... doesn't mean I was defeated
    "I postulated his possibilities and figured him out with the greatest of ease"- Smuggles
    "It looks just like an NRS game. For a lot of you guys it seems denial is just a river in Africa" - Drunkards_Walk
  • crotchpunchacrotchpuncha Joined: Posts: 19,658
    Take it to PMs guys, no one else cares.
    It's not the end of the world, but you can see it from here.
  • PSYCH0J0SHPSYCH0J0SH Joined: Posts: 4,662
    Yeah, we won't. d3v's just arguing in bad faith trying to do some jimmy rustling. Nothing will come of it like usual. Carry on.
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    Swag is for girls. Class is for Maidens.

    GigaMaidens on deviantART and on twitter @GigaMaidens

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  • crotchpunchacrotchpuncha Joined: Posts: 19,658
    PSYCH0J0SH wrote: »
    Yeah, we won't. d3v's just arguing in bad faith trying to do some jimmy rustling. Nothing will come of it like usual. Carry on.
    I don't care. Shut the fuck up and stop derailing the thread.
    It's not the end of the world, but you can see it from here.
  • butterojbutteroj You Are Luminous Joined: Posts: 1,536
    So about that switch release

     

  • PSYCH0J0SHPSYCH0J0SH Joined: Posts: 4,662
    PSYCH0J0SH wrote: »
    Yeah, we won't. d3v's just arguing in bad faith trying to do some jimmy rustling. Nothing will come of it like usual. Carry on.
    I don't care. Shut the fuck up and stop derailing the thread.

    He says, derailing the thread even further.
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    Swag is for girls. Class is for Maidens.

    GigaMaidens on deviantART and on twitter @GigaMaidens

    ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ஜ۩۞۩ஜ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬



  • JetKinenJetKinen Joined: Posts: 519
    edited March 12
    butteroj wrote: »
    So about that switch release

    .

    This is an absolutely minor thing but after seeing that combo video i've realized that i hate when only 1 character has a meter

    I can deal with different meters but i hate seeing that empty space in one side of the screen
  • freelanderfreelander Joined: Posts: 56
    that char's meter usage is work in progress
  • JetKinenJetKinen Joined: Posts: 519
    Oh okay, thats good to know.

    I thought his gimmick was having no meter gimmick
  • Bob199Bob199 Joined: Posts: 64
    People are finally starting to upload matches online





  • Plaid_UnicornPlaid_Unicorn Joined: Posts: 8,240
    So about that switch release

    Just because I lost... doesn't mean I was defeated
    "I postulated his possibilities and figured him out with the greatest of ease"- Smuggles
    "It looks just like an NRS game. For a lot of you guys it seems denial is just a river in Africa" - Drunkards_Walk
  • butterojbutteroj You Are Luminous Joined: Posts: 1,536
    So about that switch release
    Seriously....... What happened to a March release?

     

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