Improvements or changes you would like to see in SFV

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  • Viewtiful_JewViewtiful_Jew Profound badness Joined: Posts: 55
    I dunno man, I kinda feel like I should take a break from SFV until it gets its shit together. We'll see what the next patch brings.
  • TouchdownTouchdown Joined: Posts: 493
    edited April 12
    Cipher wrote: »
    I would drop FG's entirly and rather play Tetris all day, than going back to SFIV.
    That game can burn in hell forever and stay there...
    Did the versatility of close normal's blow up your crouch tech?
    Or you struggled with the combos?
    Or did someone message you bad things...

    Hahahahahahahahahha

    "I see many intermediate to intermediate-advanced players stuck in the realm of theory fighting. They are stuck in their minds, hung up on making “the right decision” at every point in the game..These players don’t play with enough intuition, with enough “feeling,” with enough creativity, unpredictability, and daring..."
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Ibuki and Juri BUFFZ Joined: Posts: 53,410 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    I dunno man, I kinda feel like I should take a break from SFV until it gets its shit together. We'll see what the next patch brings.

    Definitely not more of the same or anything like that.

    Kunoichi is always in V Trigger

    BUFF CITY.  Population IBUKI


    SFV: Ibuki (Main Bae), Juri (Buffed Bae), Chun Li (Needs Buffs Bae)

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    If I ever pick up Xrd: Johnny

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  • VeseriusVeserius Hold Down Back Joined: Posts: 11,365
    >make gameplay good

    >make menus and features good

    >make netcode good
    Vuh-sair-ee-us or just Ves I guess | Twitter | Youtube  | Maj's Footsie Handbook  | My TMNT:TF Netplay Guide
  • Citrus_monkeyCitrus_monkey Joined: Posts: 1,829
    Save for elena, high level sfiv matches are a ton of fun to watch. I'm not sure how much that translate to the casual majority if they don't really understand the game. At least for mid level players it's fun. I've clocked very little time into SFV honestly, but even after watching a ton of high level footage I don't know how I feel about CC's. It's a great idea on paper but I don't think it's implemented right. HKD's were the bane of most sfiv players...I guess a lot of people thought it broke the flow of the game. It sorta did but on the flipside it was interesting to see all the different possible setups someone could pull off after a HKD.

    A lot of sfv look and feels very samey to me. Watching PR rog and smug is great and all but it's like 75% of the time it's either dash punch up the ass and a stupid amount of st. HK bait. Watching some characters is straight up hype-kill like karin and mika.

    And lastly it just feels like the depth of the game has mostly been completely exhausted.
  • BeastEGBeastEG One day, I'll realize I'm bad at FG's Joined: Posts: 390
    I think CC is fine if it's specific to certain moves (punishing DPs, Supers, etc.) I think it's a little weird that you get CC for counter a jab though. If VF can have different counters for different classes of moves, I'd be hard pressed to believe SFV can't do the same with minimal effort.

    I just want the animations to match this hit/hurt boxes at this point. The fact that Ryu's ENTIRE FOOT can go through an opponent's leg with a cr.MK and it not register a hit is REALLY frustrating. If you're going to have that big of a mismatch, just change the animation at that point.
    SFV: Ryu
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  • JaguarSleepoverJaguarSleepover Joined: Posts: 14
    edited April 12
    Fuck SF5. Gameplay isn't bad but load times and performance are atrocious on PS4. Also I just hate all the characters and their movesets. Except for Chun Li.

    Let's do this USF4 Revival.
  • NG1313NG1313 Joined: Posts: 1,547
    Then take it to the SF4 forum, and post with love and not hate.
    "Forbidden"? Not today! Shoryuken!!!
  • coconutz50coconutz50 Joined: Posts: 89
    Fuck SF5. Gameplay isn't bad but load times and performance are atrocious on PS4. Also I just hate all the characters and their movesets. Except for Chun Li.

    Let's do this USF4 Revival.

    I've got a great idea for you. Why don't you go play USF4/with yourself? There is a section here dedicated to SF4.
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Ibuki and Juri BUFFZ Joined: Posts: 53,410 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    edited April 12
    SF4 isn't old enough for a revival. It's technically a game that's still being played just nowhere near it was pre SFV.


    Plus SFIV players shouldn't go down the same path that 3rd Strike players did where they let Mr.Wizard decide their games relevancy

    Kunoichi is always in V Trigger

    BUFF CITY.  Population IBUKI


    SFV: Ibuki (Main Bae), Juri (Buffed Bae), Chun Li (Needs Buffs Bae)

    KOF XIV: Nakoruru/Iori/KDash

    SFIV: Nobody hate that shit (PROTIP: Everyone on SRK hates SFIV)

    3S: Ibuki (main), Alex

    If I ever pick up Xrd: Johnny

    PSN: PervyJin01

    CFN: PervyJin01 (PS4) Twitch: c88deviljin01

  • TWINBLADESTWINBLADES ON YOUR KNEES!!!! Joined: Posts: 7,296
    Veserius wrote: »
    >make gameplay good

    >make menus and features good

    >make netcode good

    I'll see you in SF6
    SFV: Cammy/Kolin - And Probably Menat :P
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  • JaguarSleepoverJaguarSleepover Joined: Posts: 14
    edited April 13
    NG1313 wrote: »
    Then take it to the SF4 forum, and post with love and not hate.

    I'll try. Would be nice if it'd be more prominently placed.
  • HighlandfireballHighlandfireball Are you ready for a war? Joined: Posts: 8,098
    BeastEG wrote: »
    I think CC is fine if it's specific to certain moves (punishing DPs, Supers, etc.) I think it's a little weird that you get CC for counter a jab though. If VF can have different counters for different classes of moves, I'd be hard pressed to believe SFV can't do the same with minimal effort.

    I just want the animations to match this hit/hurt boxes at this point. The fact that Ryu's ENTIRE FOOT can go through an opponent's leg with a cr.MK and it not register a hit is REALLY frustrating. If you're going to have that big of a mismatch, just change the animation at that point.

    I think maybe they started off thinking that Crush counters should work in a certain way then it tailed off in another direction the more characters that got added. Chun and Ryu are good examples of characters that have situational CCs made more from frame traps or limited long range combos rather than footsie spam. Cammy, Zangief, Dhalsim, Vega etc also have similar uses, again all early designs. Bisons are powerful but he has slow walk speed.

    At some point they decided though that characters with good mobility could also have long ranged Crush counters then it all started to get a bit messy.

    The idea of the Crush counter is actually pretty good - a bad ass frame trap. Just in practice with some characters it spills over into - I can just use this button for anything...

  • QuarkQuark Joined: Posts: 3,985
    The idea of the Crush counter is actually pretty good - a bad ass frame trap. Just in practice with some characters it spills over into - I can just use this button for anything...

    this is why I think most CCs would make so much more sense as proximity normals

    "Please understand, I never had a secret chart
    To get me to the heart of this or any other matter"
  • HighlandfireballHighlandfireball Are you ready for a war? Joined: Posts: 8,098
    Quark wrote: »
    The idea of the Crush counter is actually pretty good - a bad ass frame trap. Just in practice with some characters it spills over into - I can just use this button for anything...

    this is why I think most CCs would make so much more sense as proximity normals

    You know they'd fuck that up though. Never been a fan of the game deciding the distance. Sagats st.mp used to give me nightmares.
  • Dime_xDime_x Wasting time Joined: Posts: 9,741
    I still like the CC mechanic. Still haven't really met a CC that I thought was completely busted.. but there re certain ones that raise a red flag.

    Urien st.hp made sense in season one when he didn't have a medium medium.
    Rog st.hk doesn't make much sense as a CC with its r be and plus frames on block and combo ability on hit.
    Akuma cr.hp is basically the same as rog... kinda doesn't make sense... but kinda does.

    I think these moves are basically made to give those characters some good stagger offense. Whether they are balanced is anyone's guess, but capcom seems to be having problems that game devs always seem to have:


    Nerfing something for some reason, then that character either underperforming or over performing and capcom changing the character, but forgetting to also revert back changes that it previously made.

    Case in point chun. She has a bad tick throw, presumably because of how good iall was. Well they nerfed iall but kept her tick throw bad.. making her more underpowered than what she is probably meant to be.

    Urien got a medium medium, but kept his st.hp being a cc that allows a dash in cr.hp.

    Probably should have made the CC +5 or +6 after the dash so that he can't get off a cr.hp combo but has to settle for a medium medium or a medium xx special.

    This kind of balance can be seen in characters like Laura who doesn't get a dash in combo off her st.hk or st.hp.


    I always felt the on,y reason why urien got a full dash in combo was because he lacked a medium medium.

    Even if all he got was a sweep, that would still be decent. But maybe he gets those good options cause of his spotty AA... idk. But the balance does seem off in certain respects the more they change characters up.
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • QuarkQuark Joined: Posts: 3,985
    I don't think the problem is that individual CCs are busted. it's more the overall effect that CCs have on neutral that I dislike.

    "Please understand, I never had a secret chart
    To get me to the heart of this or any other matter"
  • Dime_xDime_x Wasting time Joined: Posts: 9,741
    I like em because the damaging cancel aspect of older streetfightrs is largely gone in sf5. No more autopilot ibuki cr.mp xx tsumuji into knockdown vortex or shoto cr.mk xx fireball etc etc

    It makes the neutral less damaging to the point where people don't respect the neutral at all.... till you hit they bitch ass with a cc like bacdafukup nigga and stop gettin crazy all up in my neutral, homie.

    Sf5 is way to easy on people at neutral in general so anything that puts some check yoself back into the neutral is a good thing imo.
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • HighlandfireballHighlandfireball Are you ready for a war? Joined: Posts: 8,098
    Dime_x wrote: »
    I like em because the damaging cancel aspect of older streetfightrs is largely gone in sf5. No more autopilot ibuki cr.mp xx tsumuji into knockdown vortex or shoto cr.mk xx fireball etc etc

    It makes the neutral less damaging to the point where people don't respect the neutral at all.... till you hit they bitch ass with a cc like bacdafukup nigga and stop gettin crazy all up in my neutral, homie.

    Sf5 is way to easy on people at neutral in general so anything that puts some check yoself back into the neutral is a good thing imo.

    I dunno, are you saying the neutral is easy or hard? Because there's nothing hard about pressing a button then two buttons at the same time into a safe V-trigger that's plus on block that also leads to half your life if it connects ( and freezes the screen just in case you missed it). You can completely outplay Ibuki, Rog, Urien or even Laura then get caught by a option selected (didn't we hate option selects in 4?) button that will literally drain half your life bar and put you in the mixer.

    I'd encourage anyone to look up the Sonic Hurricane footsie Guide - have a deep think about what you just read - Then come to the conclusion that one of the greatest guides ever written, doesn't actually apply to Street Fighter 5.

    Chapter 5 - "One of the oldest textbook guidelines in Street Fighter is “Don’t jump.” That’s been true since the beginning with SF2: World Warrior and it’s still true today. When you jump toward your opponent, you surrender control of the joystick for two whole seconds. Think about that"

    .......
  • Dime_xDime_x Wasting time Joined: Posts: 9,741
    edited April 13
    I don't think much of the footsie guide applies to sf5 nor do I ever think it will... and in the absence of easy wiff punishing, safe on block wiff punishers and safe on block cancels that you can be proactive with and push the offense instead of having to empty buffer all day...something has to be done to pump up neutral damage.

    As it is the game outside of random neutral CC is just all up close frame traps/mixups and v trigger pops. At least neutral CC gives the footsie game some teeth. And CC tend to be some of the easiest to wiff punish moves in the game, and CC tend to be moves that get CC'd the most since they are slow as molasses.

    Also "don't jump" actually isn't true in a lot of street fighters like alpha 3 and streetfighter 3.

    Not that I have any problems with not jumping but in games where jumping is bad... like cvs2 and ST.. you have all kinds of other things to do to be offensive that don't include jumping.

    Vega can walldive as an example and chun will walk in on you from 3/4 screen way and just violate you with a walk up throw, etc.
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • CipherCipher Catchphraser Joined: Posts: 1,617
    Touchdown wrote: »
    Did the versatility of close normal's blow up your crouch tech?
    Or you struggled with the combos?
    Or did someone message you bad things...

    Hahahahahahahahahha

    And here we have a prime example of the people still playing SFIV.

    MOBA level of incompetence.

    You idiot didn't even read the whole text, CVS2 requires more of everything than IV does. CVS doesn't hold your hand, IV does.
    You can argure V does as well, but I rather deal with CC spammers, than OS city.
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  • QuarkQuark Joined: Posts: 3,985
    edited April 13
    Dime_x wrote: »
    I like em because the damaging cancel aspect of older streetfightrs is largely gone in sf5. No more autopilot ibuki cr.mp xx tsumuji into knockdown vortex or shoto cr.mk xx fireball etc etc

    It makes the neutral less damaging to the point where people don't respect the neutral at all.... till you hit they bitch ass with a cc like bacdafukup nigga and stop gettin crazy all up in my neutral, homie.

    Sf5 is way to easy on people at neutral in general so anything that puts some check yoself back into the neutral is a good thing imo.

    even if you took CCs out of the picture, fucking up in neutral would still be costly due to how many characters have either good corner carry or strong knockdown pressure or both. even more so if you have a big VT stocked. as for the characters who lack those things, you could always just buff conversions off of their (non-CC) pokes as well as increasing raw poke damage so that whittling somebody down would be a legit gameplan. buff AA damage too!

    at the end of the day, my problem with CCs isn't that they do too much damage - it's that they reward the wrong things. why should scoring CHs be such a crucially important part of neutral? most CCs have 3-4 active frames and most buttons have 3-9f startup - that leaves you with a very small window to actually CH your opponent. that's not an issue in frame traps because the threat of a throw forces your opponent to do something within that window (lest they get thrown every time). but in neutral it's rarely possible to predict that your opponent is going to do something now - as opposed to say, 10f from now, or 15f from now.

    I think this is what leads to the feeling that CC's are "random." Sometimes you have a good read that your opponent is going to do something but still miss your CC because they did it a few frames too early or too late. Other times you land a CC and it doesn't feel deserved because you know there's no way in hell you could have predicted your opponent was going to be stuck in startup within that specific 3/4f frame window. But if you have a CC that's relatively safe (which is most of them) you might as well stick it out because... well, why not?

    "Please understand, I never had a secret chart
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  • EdmundEdmund Cammy <3 Joined: Posts: 571
    PS4 pro support (Graphical improvements) would be nice. Tell me I didn't upgrade to a pro just for loading times to be faster by 7 seconds. Lol.
  • VeseriusVeserius Hold Down Back Joined: Posts: 11,365
    @Highlandfireball

    don't jump is sort of 2nd level

    players go

    jump > don't jump > jump at smart spots generally as they get better at fighting games. This doesn't apply to all characters, but it applies to a ton in a lot of games.

    SFV kind of breaks that with how poor anti airs though as there are more smart spots to jump.
    Vuh-sair-ee-us or just Ves I guess | Twitter | Youtube  | Maj's Footsie Handbook  | My TMNT:TF Netplay Guide
  • PhinxPhinx Joined: Posts: 119
    Cipher wrote: »
    Touchdown wrote: »
    Did the versatility of close normal's blow up your crouch tech?
    Or you struggled with the combos?
    Or did someone message you bad things...

    Hahahahahahahahahha

    And here we have a prime example of the people still playing SFIV.

    MOBA level of incompetence.

    You idiot didn't even read the whole text, CVS2 requires more of everything than IV does. CVS doesn't hold your hand, IV does.
    You can argure V does as well, but I rather deal with CC spammers, than OS city.

    Cipher. You do realize both SFV and IV are in the OS city? A meaty hard will CC all buttons, dashes, techs, many can anti air, recover fast enough to guard or throw v-reversal, will be + frames. That's like the ultimate offensive OS. Same could be said about meaty throws/command throws and how many things they deal with.

    On a side note in regards to Balrog. He was based on Mike Tyson (prior to fear of being sued he was named Mike Bison.) Who's is incredibly fast an nimble. He turned an easily exploitable offensive style (Dempsey roll) into an amazing offensive/defensive style utilizing momentum. The difference is Tyson didn't fight like a T-rex and also uses many lunging blows.

    We also had Floyd Patterson and Muhammad ali, who were very fast. If anything it's just this generation of heavy weights who seem to be getting bigger and slower.
  • CipherCipher Catchphraser Joined: Posts: 1,617
    edited April 14
    Phinx wrote: »

    Cipher. You do realize both SFV and IV are in the OS city? A meaty hard will CC all buttons, dashes, techs, many can anti air, recover fast enough to guard or throw v-reversal, will be + frames. That's like the ultimate offensive OS. Same could be said about meaty throws/command throws and how many things they deal with.

    You compare an OS to a meaty.
    No worse, you say a meaty is an OS.

    You should probably read a lexicon and learn what the term means.

    A OS is something like this :



    It's simple explained. Rose presses cr.lp and cr.hk at the same time, now the game decides what input is the correct one for the situation.
    If Chun backdashs the sweep comes out, if she blocks Rose cr.lp comes out and she can continue her blockstring. Thats a basic OS.

    If you do a Fierce Metay, it's a Fierce Meaty, there is nothing else behind it, you may delay your button press to bait a DP, but thats no OS either.
    You don't press 5 buttons at the same time at the opponents wakeup and the game decides what is the correct button for you at this situation.
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  • QuarkQuark Joined: Posts: 3,985
    SFV still has quite a few OS's though - some of them very fundamental, like whiff buffering and delayed teching. rejecting all OS's on principle is silly.

    the problem with backdash OS's like the one in that video is that they were tedious and didn't add very much depth
    "Please understand, I never had a secret chart
    To get me to the heart of this or any other matter"
  • CipherCipher Catchphraser Joined: Posts: 1,617
    My point was that he said a meaty is an OS, thats pretty silly.

    I know that there're still OS in this game, you can't remove them entirely from games, thats literaly impossible.
    It's just the extend, I need them far less now then I did back then and stuff like 4-5 button OS are luckly no longer a thing.
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  • QuarkQuark Joined: Posts: 3,985
    ah, my bad. I've seen some people on here saying that ALL OS's are bad, and I confused you with one of those people.
    "Please understand, I never had a secret chart
    To get me to the heart of this or any other matter"
  • VeseriusVeserius Hold Down Back Joined: Posts: 11,365
    you can option select v-reversal with throw still right, isn't that a 4 button os.
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  • CipherCipher Catchphraser Joined: Posts: 1,617
    Quark wrote: »
    ah, my bad. I've seen some people on here saying that ALL OS's are bad, and I confused you with one of those people.

    Debateable if they're all bad. Some might see it so, some the other way around.
    There're a lot OS you don't think are OS. Something like whiffbuffering or delay tech, like you said.
    They're pretty much everywere.

    I still don't let someone try to sell me a meaty is the ultimate offensiv OS.
    Veserius wrote: »
    you can option select v-reversal with throw still right, isn't that a 4 button os.

    I don't think it's 4 buttons. 3 as far as I know.
    Or you just do a lot of lights and grab them out of it anyway.
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  • truendymiontruendymion Beer Me! Joined: Posts: 2,123
    edited April 16
    Cipher wrote: »
    My point was that he said a meaty is an OS, thats pretty silly.

    I know that there're still OS in this game, you can't remove them entirely from games, thats literaly impossible.
    It's just the extend, I need them far less now then I did back then and stuff like 4-5 button OS are luckly no longer a thing.

    Technically you could remove all OS if you remove proximity normals, remove button macros and have input cancels work the same whether on whiff or hit. Not feasible for SF but technically it would be possible to design a game in such a way.
  • MochaLatteMochaLatte Joined: Posts: 1,007
    Dime_x wrote: »
    Case in point chun. She has a bad tick throw, presumably because of how good iall was. Well they nerfed iall but kept her tick throw bad.. making her more underpowered than what she is probably meant to be.

    I don't know how many time I have to repeat myself, but everyone has a "bad" tick throw save for like 2 characters. Chun isn't the only one in the cast that can have jab xx throw be walked out of or reversal jabbed out of, everyone has to deal with that
  • VeseriusVeserius Hold Down Back Joined: Posts: 11,365
    Cipher wrote: »
    My point was that he said a meaty is an OS, thats pretty silly.

    I know that there're still OS in this game, you can't remove them entirely from games, thats literaly impossible.
    It's just the extend, I need them far less now then I did back then and stuff like 4-5 button OS are luckly no longer a thing.

    Technically you could remove all OS if you remove proximity normals, remove button macros and have input cancels work the same whether on whiff or hit. Not feasible for SF but technically it would be possible to design a game in such a way.

    this wouldn't get rid of all os.
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  • Dime_xDime_x Wasting time Joined: Posts: 9,741
    edited April 17
    MochaLatte wrote: »
    Dime_x wrote: »
    Case in point chun. She has a bad tick throw, presumably because of how good iall was. Well they nerfed iall but kept her tick throw bad.. making her more underpowered than what she is probably meant to be.

    I don't know how many time I have to repeat myself, but everyone has a "bad" tick throw save for like 2 characters. Chun isn't the only one in the cast that can have jab xx throw be walked out of or reversal jabbed out of, everyone has to deal with that
    I don't like gloating when I'm correct but this is wrong. I'm not even going to go into the game to figure out all the characters but off the top of my head:

    akuma/cammy/urien/kolin (and I think Karin) all get st.lk>throw (or st.lp>throw) without walking forward.

    Then off of command grabs without walking forward we still get necalli/Mika/Laura/gief/Alex (and probably birdie) that all get it.

    And I don't think that list is exhaustive, but I've already proven my point that it's far more than 2 characters that get weak attack into throw without walking forward. Please feel free not to change goalposts and tell me that certain characters can't achieve the position as easy as others (or that command grabs skew the argument) and that therefor this is an illogical argument.


    The characters that don't get that tick throw goodness by and large have some mixup in its place like a very fast comboable overhead or a very good left/right mixup or a very good fireball for neutral poking. Chun is one of the only characters that doesn't have these or has REALLY bad versions of these. Chun as an example has the comboable overhead but it's slow as horse shit and only comboable in v trigger. She also has the fireball but it's also slow and requires charge.


    The point isn't and never was that people can jab chun out of her tick throw or walk out of it. The point has always been that she has to walk forward after the jab, which increases tech time, which makes it harder for her to shimmy or frame trap.

    As an easy example. I use kolin offline against people I can st.lp and walk backwards then st.hp link into full combo shimmy punish whiffed tech throws.

    With chun against better players this isn't possible. I have to walk forward then backwards in order to properly shimmy, and that's a hell of a lot harder to do correctly while still looking like an actual throw attempt without getting thrown myself and leaves me much more vulnerable. It also means the tech window is much slower so my staggers and frame traps have to be much slower increasing the window where if I guess incorrectly I take damage from jabs and stuff.

    Chun doesn't get any cute stuff like st.lp xx v skill throw, or normal xx v skill>cc and she doesn't have big damage, nor big corner carry. So chun is just a hard to open with character now that her iall got nerfed into the ground which was her primary offensive move.

    A tick throw that doesn't require her to walk forward, thus decreasing the time of the tech window after blocking the jab, would benefit her greatly in this regard.

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    Does chun have a good tick throw/shimmy/frame trap/mixup game when compared to most other characters?
    Post edited by Dime_x on
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • RandomRandom Joined: Posts: 264
    SFV is so repetitive and boring. Even when I win it's just the same old shit. Heavy meaty and lp AA need to be dropped the most, tired of both doing it and having it done to me. So mindless. SF2 had meaty but it was not so sloppily implemented, they're the worst.
  • EvansgambitEvansgambit ATOMIC ZANGI Joined: Posts: 742
    SFV neutral game needs a buff.

    Attacks need to be made whiff punishable for all things, that are not lights.

    Adding of extra retractable hurtbox animation is crucial.

    Button priority is good for the game. But lights need to compete with the medium and heavy's in the mid-range game.

    Lights need to have attack boxes that slightly extend over their hurt boxes, to give them counter balance to the stronger pokes.

    Please leave a post or a flame below... Peace. Evans Out.
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  • crash_and_burncrash_and_burn "Do I drive? Or am I driven?" Joined: Posts: 2,766
    6e0.gif
  • BeastEGBeastEG One day, I'll realize I'm bad at FG's Joined: Posts: 390
    edited April 18
    I'm a shit tier player, and a Ryu player to boot, so take this as you will, but what I find most frustrating about SFV is I feel like I'm being punished for trying to learn what SF is supposed to be all about: Space control (or at least that's what I've been told). Granted, you should learn the game in front of you and not "what you think the game is," but I'm genuinely lost on what makes SF better than the more offensively based 2D FG's, notably KOF and GG whose systems are designed to expand the defensive and offensive options.

    1) With the jump-in vs AA scale tipped so heavily in favor of jump ins, it gets really frustrating when people are just jumping all over the place, and the most I can punish them for is 12% with a DP whereas they can easily get 35%+ with no meter or 1 meter. Hell some characters can easily blow past that. Especially with online lag and input latency, it goes form being challenging to AA effectively to just frustrating. Even successful AA's usual feel like a hollow victory.

    2) On CC's, I think in general, they are fun. My biggest issue is that some characters (Ryu on others) mainly can only get effective damage off very specific events (blocked DP) whereas other characters can get them in way more common scenarios.

    3) My general feeling is that there are just way too many forward moving moves that are safe or not minus enough. Taking space is supposed to be risky and the reward for outplaying your opponent. I'd probably be more okay with the SFV if meter gain was decelerated, but it's so rare that you don't have meter (usually start of match, after CA, or spamming a ton of EX) and then you get a lot of moves that are just free to move in. I think either slow down meter gain or make forward moving moves much less safe (or at least much more punishable).

    4) I feel like abare (attacking from disadvantage) is really strong in SFV, which is fine. That said, I feel like it's powerful to the point that character viability is severely influence by how much you can get off baiting an abare move that isn't a DP. Most of the top tiers can punish abare to great effect and from multiple distances, where as the bottom tiers have a much harder time converting damage. I'm going to hold execution aside on this point because execution (in terms or probability of doing it) rarely is a useful balancing mechanism as opposed to the actual mechanical inputs (charge vs. motion.)

    I guess I've always felt like "tier lists" don't matter unless you're a pro player, and its on you to figure out how to win. That said, I'm just left questioning the logic of a lot of design decisions. SFV feels like a game that was designed by someone who was a player that wanted their style to shine at the expensive of all other potential ways to play.
    SFV: Ryu
    VF5FS: Sarah Bryant
    GG Xrd: Ky
    Overwatch (damn there is a lot to learn): Pharrah, 76, Tracer / Bastion, Dwarf / Ape, Rein, Orisa, Russia / Lucio, Mercy, Zen, Symm
  • NG1313NG1313 Joined: Posts: 1,547
    edited April 18
    It's time to give the fuck up on the idea of "space control" that "you handle, but the opponent does not".

    Get the fuckkkkkkkkkkk outta here :tdown: :tdown: :tdown: :tdown: :tdown: :tdown: :tdown:

    The reason they fucking jump is precisely because of your "12% Vs. 35%".

    You still have a ways to go, before mastering the game. This is evident by your unconditional fear of the opponent's EX meter.
    "Forbidden"? Not today! Shoryuken!!!
  • BeastEGBeastEG One day, I'll realize I'm bad at FG's Joined: Posts: 390
    edited April 18
    Granted, I said I was a bottom tier player so I'm not sure why you feel the hostility is needed. Did I every say my opponent was not outplaying me? My point was more so that "space control" usually implies some things about taking ground / giving up ground. Perhaps you could enlighten me? I come from a predominately 3D FG background (first real game I took seriously was VF4) so it could just be that I don't understand what "space control" means given Domination 101 terminology.

    Ryu literally can't do more than 12% consistently in terms of AA. Your most damaging AA option is A2A j.MPxxEX tatsu. However, since the hits aren't guaranteed, you can get anywhere from 15%-20%, which at those odds, you're probably just better off doing EX DP or regular DP.

    I really don't live in fear on EX meters, they are a resource you can bait out to burn just like anything else. My point was more so that EX builds relatively quickly which means it's an option that seems to be always available even if you force them out of your opponent on a regular basis, as opposed to something that players should be judicious about.
    SFV: Ryu
    VF5FS: Sarah Bryant
    GG Xrd: Ky
    Overwatch (damn there is a lot to learn): Pharrah, 76, Tracer / Bastion, Dwarf / Ape, Rein, Orisa, Russia / Lucio, Mercy, Zen, Symm
  • NG1313NG1313 Joined: Posts: 1,547
    edited April 18
    I can "stop being an ass", "and enlighten you" -- I'm just saying scrubs are salty because they believe they had better space control than their opponent despite their loss, perhaps because of bullshit from the internet.
    BeastEG wrote: »
    I really don't live in fear on EX meters, they are a resource you can bait out to burn just like anything else. My point was more so that EX builds relatively quickly which means it's an option that seems to be always available even if you force them out of your opponent on a regular basis, as opposed to something that players should be judicious about.

    Yeah, I can kind of get on board with this though :tup:
    "Forbidden"? Not today! Shoryuken!!!
  • BeastEGBeastEG One day, I'll realize I'm bad at FG's Joined: Posts: 390
    edited April 18
    Fair enough. I don't mind losing (it's part of learning and getting better) and getting outplayed is part of that. Like I said, I come from the "tiers don't matter unless you're pro player" camp and the "It's on you to win" camp as well. I'm not salty about losing, I'm more frustrated by the disconnect of what I'm interpreting SF to be all about, and what I'm seeing on the screen.

    When someone tells me the game is about "space control," it usually means telling your opponent, "You REALLY don't want to be there." Even watching streams of tourneys, it rarely feels like that is the case (or I could just not be seeing it).

    I can see with a grappler like Gief, and rush down tricksters like Ibuki. With someone like Ryu...not as much.
    SFV: Ryu
    VF5FS: Sarah Bryant
    GG Xrd: Ky
    Overwatch (damn there is a lot to learn): Pharrah, 76, Tracer / Bastion, Dwarf / Ape, Rein, Orisa, Russia / Lucio, Mercy, Zen, Symm
  • NG1313NG1313 Joined: Posts: 1,547
    Okay. Well I play Ryu too, and I feel he can play fine against anybody all across the screen.

    But the thing with #SFV in my opinion is that it's all about reads and condioning -- the heart of SF in my opinion, so when I play SFV I win when I have a better read plus strategy than my opponent.
    "Forbidden"? Not today! Shoryuken!!!
  • CipherCipher Catchphraser Joined: Posts: 1,617
    BeastEG wrote: »
    I'm a shit tier player, and a Ryu player to boot, so take this as you will, but what I find most frustrating about SFV is I feel like I'm being punished for trying to learn what SF is supposed to be all about: Space control (or at least that's what I've been told). Granted, you should learn the game in front of you and not "what you think the game is," but I'm genuinely lost on what makes SF better than the more offensively based 2D FG's, notably KOF and GG whose systems are designed to expand the defensive and offensive options.

    1) With the jump-in vs AA scale tipped so heavily in favor of jump ins, it gets really frustrating when people are just jumping all over the place, and the most I can punish them for is 12% with a DP whereas they can easily get 35%+ with no meter or 1 meter. Hell some characters can easily blow past that. Especially with online lag and input latency, it goes form being challenging to AA effectively to just frustrating. Even successful AA's usual feel like a hollow victory.

    2) On CC's, I think in general, they are fun. My biggest issue is that some characters (Ryu on others) mainly can only get effective damage off very specific events (blocked DP) whereas other characters can get them in way more common scenarios.

    3) My general feeling is that there are just way too many forward moving moves that are safe or not minus enough. Taking space is supposed to be risky and the reward for outplaying your opponent. I'd probably be more okay with the SFV if meter gain was decelerated, but it's so rare that you don't have meter (usually start of match, after CA, or spamming a ton of EX) and then you get a lot of moves that are just free to move in. I think either slow down meter gain or make forward moving moves much less safe (or at least much more punishable).

    4) I feel like abare (attacking from disadvantage) is really strong in SFV, which is fine. That said, I feel like it's powerful to the point that character viability is severely influence by how much you can get off baiting an abare move that isn't a DP. Most of the top tiers can punish abare to great effect and from multiple distances, where as the bottom tiers have a much harder time converting damage. I'm going to hold execution aside on this point because execution (in terms or probability of doing it) rarely is a useful balancing mechanism as opposed to the actual mechanical inputs (charge vs. motion.)

    I guess I've always felt like "tier lists" don't matter unless you're a pro player, and its on you to figure out how to win. That said, I'm just left questioning the logic of a lot of design decisions. SFV feels like a game that was designed by someone who was a player that wanted their style to shine at the expensive of all other potential ways to play.

    I still love the season 1 logic.

    Anti-airs are to weak, nerf anti-airs!
    Still puts a smile on my face.

    1)I get in some matches 80% of my damage just from hitting people out of the air with Cammys b+mp, that thing does what? 40 damage?
    Point with anti-airs is, that you need to be consistent with them and lots of people just hope that you fuck the timing up and get punished for it.
    Was in SFIV the same, just there some characters (yes I talk about the Shotos and not even all of them) could DP FADC, what is still one of the worst innovations in FG history. Well on hit it seems to be somewhat ok, but not on block.
    Anyways, you have to be consistent, permanent jump-ins are primarely reliance from your opponent that you will fuck up, so you need to be on point.
    Since I doubt you play offline, this is the first rule for you online, ANTI-AIR ONLINE FOOTSIES IS A MYTH AND ALWAYS WAS A MYTH!!
    Don't exept from your opponent to play SF against you, they just want to win somehow, if constantly jumping in gives them lots of victorys, then is it your job to show them, that it doesn't work the whole time.

    2) This is already a misconseption, you think CC are neccesary to get damage. I play a characters who's CC button is only good for two things
    - Anti-Airs
    - DP punishs
    I don't relie on this tool to get damage done and to think it has to be your mainsource of damage is a bit banale.
    Unless you taught focus or parries were your mainsources of damage in SFIV and III, then you're right CC's are absolutly neccesary to get damage.

    3) Bro, do you even SF2? SF3? SF4? SF the movie the game?
    That shit was since SF2 in SF. Just figure out how to beat them, stand at a range where you think you can react to them and stuff them or make them misspace their move and whiffpunish them.
    Furthermore most of these kind of moves are between 0 and -4 (with some rare exceptions), so you can contest their 3f or just outright take your turn.
    You simply need to learn to deal with these kind of moves and how to beat them.
    But to repeat myself, you complain about something that is present since SF2 and it was even worse in that game.

    4) I skip this because I have no clue what abare is. (Ten seconds of Google translate later) Ein nackter, huhahehahu
    The only character whos realy not viable (or barely) at this point is FANG and I'm sure by now, thats intentional.

    Tierlists don't matter at all, if you think you need a TopTier to be competetive or compete is a bad mentality and will affect you negative by a large scale.
    What about me? I choose my characters based on appearance and personality. I literaly don't care how good they are and I do decent in games like ST or KoF98 where most of my chars are below midtier.
    In ST I play basicly only Cammy and in KoF98 I have fucking Rugal in my team. If you google Rugal + KoF98 will the first picture be a trashbin, because thats what Rugal in 98 is, trash! (with monstrus style!)
    Get that thinking out of your head and stop thinking Tiers will make your life easier.

    Maybe you should explore the cast more, obviously you're not happy with your character.
    NG1313 wrote: »
    It's time to give the fuck up on the idea of "space control" that "you handle, but the opponent does not".

    Get the fuckkkkkkkkkkk outta here :tdown: :tdown: :tdown: :tdown: :tdown: :tdown: :tdown:

    The reason they fucking jump is precisely because of your "12% Vs. 35%".

    You still have a ways to go, before mastering the game. This is evident by your unconditional fear of the opponent's EX meter.

    :tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown:

    This makes you neither cool, nor makes it you more creditable, it makes you just look stupid.

    :tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown:

    See it looks stupid! :tdown:
    SteamId, leave a comment before adding!
    Street Fighter: Cammy
    Tekken: When's Jun? , Lili, Eliza
    Guilty Gear: Ramlethal

    My SFV Cammyguide!
  • NG1313NG1313 Joined: Posts: 1,547
    It's not supposed to make me look cool among internet-dorks, bro' :tup:

    Just expressing how I feel sometimes. I'm signing out for now 'cause I've had too much water to drink :tup:
    "Forbidden"? Not today! Shoryuken!!!
  • crash_and_burncrash_and_burn "Do I drive? Or am I driven?" Joined: Posts: 2,766
    They could easily improve this game by buffing Bison.
  • Dime_xDime_x Wasting time Joined: Posts: 9,741
    Cipher wrote: »
    BeastEG wrote: »
    I'm a shit tier player, and a Ryu player to boot, so take this as you will, but what I find most frustrating about SFV is I feel like I'm being punished for trying to learn what SF is supposed to be all about: Space control (or at least that's what I've been told). Granted, you should learn the game in front of you and not "what you think the game is," but I'm genuinely lost on what makes SF better than the more offensively based 2D FG's, notably KOF and GG whose systems are designed to expand the defensive and offensive options.

    1) With the jump-in vs AA scale tipped so heavily in favor of jump ins, it gets really frustrating when people are just jumping all over the place, and the most I can punish them for is 12% with a DP whereas they can easily get 35%+ with no meter or 1 meter. Hell some characters can easily blow past that. Especially with online lag and input latency, it goes form being challenging to AA effectively to just frustrating. Even successful AA's usual feel like a hollow victory.

    2) On CC's, I think in general, they are fun. My biggest issue is that some characters (Ryu on others) mainly can only get effective damage off very specific events (blocked DP) whereas other characters can get them in way more common scenarios.

    3) My general feeling is that there are just way too many forward moving moves that are safe or not minus enough. Taking space is supposed to be risky and the reward for outplaying your opponent. I'd probably be more okay with the SFV if meter gain was decelerated, but it's so rare that you don't have meter (usually start of match, after CA, or spamming a ton of EX) and then you get a lot of moves that are just free to move in. I think either slow down meter gain or make forward moving moves much less safe (or at least much more punishable).

    4) I feel like abare (attacking from disadvantage) is really strong in SFV, which is fine. That said, I feel like it's powerful to the point that character viability is severely influence by how much you can get off baiting an abare move that isn't a DP. Most of the top tiers can punish abare to great effect and from multiple distances, where as the bottom tiers have a much harder time converting damage. I'm going to hold execution aside on this point because execution (in terms or probability of doing it) rarely is a useful balancing mechanism as opposed to the actual mechanical inputs (charge vs. motion.)

    I guess I've always felt like "tier lists" don't matter unless you're a pro player, and its on you to figure out how to win. That said, I'm just left questioning the logic of a lot of design decisions. SFV feels like a game that was designed by someone who was a player that wanted their style to shine at the expensive of all other potential ways to play.

    I still love the season 1 logic.

    Anti-airs are to weak, nerf anti-airs!
    Still puts a smile on my face.

    1)I get in some matches 80% of my damage just from hitting people out of the air with Cammys b+mp, that thing does what? 40 damage?
    Point with anti-airs is, that you need to be consistent with them and lots of people just hope that you fuck the timing up and get punished for it.
    Was in SFIV the same, just there some characters (yes I talk about the Shotos and not even all of them) could DP FADC, what is still one of the worst innovations in FG history. Well on hit it seems to be somewhat ok, but not on block.
    Anyways, you have to be consistent, permanent jump-ins are primarely reliance from your opponent that you will fuck up, so you need to be on point.
    Since I doubt you play offline, this is the first rule for you online, ANTI-AIR ONLINE FOOTSIES IS A MYTH AND ALWAYS WAS A MYTH!!
    Don't exept from your opponent to play SF against you, they just want to win somehow, if constantly jumping in gives them lots of victorys, then is it your job to show them, that it doesn't work the whole time.

    2) This is already a misconseption, you think CC are neccesary to get damage. I play a characters who's CC button is only good for two things
    - Anti-Airs
    - DP punishs
    I don't relie on this tool to get damage done and to think it has to be your mainsource of damage is a bit banale.
    Unless you taught focus or parries were your mainsources of damage in SFIV and III, then you're right CC's are absolutly neccesary to get damage.

    3) Bro, do you even SF2? SF3? SF4? SF the movie the game?
    That shit was since SF2 in SF. Just figure out how to beat them, stand at a range where you think you can react to them and stuff them or make them misspace their move and whiffpunish them.
    Furthermore most of these kind of moves are between 0 and -4 (with some rare exceptions), so you can contest their 3f or just outright take your turn.
    You simply need to learn to deal with these kind of moves and how to beat them.
    But to repeat myself, you complain about something that is present since SF2 and it was even worse in that game.

    4) I skip this because I have no clue what abare is. (Ten seconds of Google translate later) Ein nackter, huhahehahu
    The only character whos realy not viable (or barely) at this point is FANG and I'm sure by now, thats intentional.

    Tierlists don't matter at all, if you think you need a TopTier to be competetive or compete is a bad mentality and will affect you negative by a large scale.
    What about me? I choose my characters based on appearance and personality. I literaly don't care how good they are and I do decent in games like ST or KoF98 where most of my chars are below midtier.
    In ST I play basicly only Cammy and in KoF98 I have fucking Rugal in my team. If you google Rugal + KoF98 will the first picture be a trashbin, because thats what Rugal in 98 is, trash! (with monstrus style!)
    Get that thinking out of your head and stop thinking Tiers will make your life easier.

    Maybe you should explore the cast more, obviously you're not happy with your character.
    NG1313 wrote: »
    It's time to give the fuck up on the idea of "space control" that "you handle, but the opponent does not".

    Get the fuckkkkkkkkkkk outta here :tdown: :tdown: :tdown: :tdown: :tdown: :tdown: :tdown:

    The reason they fucking jump is precisely because of your "12% Vs. 35%".

    You still have a ways to go, before mastering the game. This is evident by your unconditional fear of the opponent's EX meter.

    :tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown:

    This makes you neither cool, nor makes it you more creditable, it makes you just look stupid.

    :tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown::tdown:

    See it looks stupid! :tdown:

    I don't normally disagree with you, but you play cammy who is high tier, her BMP is one of the best if not the best AA in the game, and she has tons of pressure with her normals and walkspeed alone, plus her v trigger is like a free super every round, or free jumpins.

    Not saying you or anyone else should feel bad about using cammy or that there isn't skill to her, since there is a lot of skill in the character, but this "you don't need a top tier" is BS. I play urien chun Laura and chun is harder to win with than urien or Laura. Laura has a command grab to scare people and get free damage on reads, urien has a seriously nice v trigger and big normals. Chun has pokes and low damage and very little pressure.

    Abare means different things in different fighting games.

    In old school Japan it meant "he who attacks from disadvantage" and was colloquially used to refer to mashers, but was also about players that would attack when it wasn't their turn as far as frame advantage. So as an example, cammy does a regular divekick that gets blocked and she's at disadvantage, but instead of taking the pressure of a blocked move from the opponent she reversals and tries to take her turn back... that's a textbook example of abare for streetfighter. Other examples are players like rashid doing L mixer on block at -2 and still attacking afterwards hopin their opponent pressed their button to slowly.


    The other primary term for abare refers to marvel or anime games and it is basically a term to refer to a characters ability to turn random hits into full combos.

    The better a characters abare, the better they "tend" to be.
    Gettin' my derp on.
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