Net code discussion. Rollback confirmed!

sh0ultzsh0ultz Joined: Posts: 674 mod
edited July 2015 in Street Fighter V
so every time a new Capcom games comes out, Online is like the biggest thing I complain about. Routinely, newer players throw in there 2 cents about how great umvc3\sf4 is online when in reality they used an outdated system that will never get any better for the rest of the world.

I've tried this for mvc2\cvs2 back in the day, sfxt, sf4 vanilla, mvc3 vanilla. I ask EVERY time a new game comes out from Capcom to implement this technology as even regular connections within the USA are extremely playable. I understand in Japan with the shorter distance and better connections that method of netcode doesn't matter but Capcom has to realize their are other markets outside of Japan. If they plan for the worst online and make it good, making it work in the USA, it will be AMAZING in places where the net is better then the US.

imo this is SHOULD be one of the most important things to implement. New game on a next gen system can mean really big first time numbers. If the netcode is amazing out the gate, Capcom will benefit more than they ever have with their recent games.
Post edited by d3v on
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Comments

  • blufangblufang Devour! Joined: Posts: 4,487
    Everyone at Capcom cup needs to bug Ono and Co about GGPO in SFV. Tweet capcom devs constantly, cause a big uproar. So much so that Capcom feels that GGPO is essential for SFV financially succeeding.




  • sh0ultzsh0ultz Joined: Posts: 674 mod
    edited December 2014
    for the record, sf4\mvc3 are crap online anywhere outside of Japan and you even argue that they're not good their either. The way these games register inputs are dated\wrong and it doesn't work very well even in a high technological infrastructure. Its SERIOUSLY flawed.

    Daigo chiming in on out net code. Not referencing Daigo becaue he's Daigo but because as a player, he'e played online in Japan\US. He has a better grasp of how good\bad it is because he has played on both while being a really a good player. This was during his visit the Capcom USA playing on a business type connection which I imagine is probably 2-3x better than regular US connection and he still had problems. Even if our connections 6x better, it would still suck. Since our infrastructure isn't going to improve any time soon, the best we can do is use better netcode methods.

    http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2010/nov/19/daigo-umehara-online-ssf4-matches-getting-underway/

    • He said he had a tough time with the online lag during the matches.
  • ArtVandelayArtVandelay Architect Joined: Posts: 5,343
    Have you ever seen a 3D or 2.5D fighting game with GGPO?
    CFN: NaughtySenpai
  • Zio_NameZio_Name Joined: Posts: 342
    If only i would remember my twitter password, i'd tweet everyday Ono about GGPO.

    Oh well, i guess i should make another account.
  • CagarCagar Joined: Posts: 99
    Whoever is going to the finals, please don't let Ono out of the capcom cup tournament place before he promises to use GGPO.
  • tatakitataki misplaced Joined: Posts: 7,692
    Have you ever seen a 3D or 2.5D fighting game with GGPO?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GGPO
    Dragon Ball: Zenkai Battle Royale (2011)
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  • sh0ultzsh0ultz Joined: Posts: 674 mod
    we should just start a srk petition backed by top players comments.

    or something similar needs to be done imo. We need to blow them up now before the game even drops to stand a shot at implementing it. I can't do this all by myself, god knows I have tried. Something like this needs to be a community outcry

    #GGPOMATTERS
  • Shinkuu TatsumakiShinkuu Tatsumaki Joined: Posts: 6,719
    edited December 2014
    It's probably too late. The game didn't JUST start development. It's most likely been in the works way before the PS4 Hadoken commercial/trailer.

    We'll just have to see what they give us.... maybe it'll be GGPO who knows.
  • ilitiritilitirit Joined: Posts: 6,381
    edited December 2014
    the game would have to be designed around ggpo. remember the sound issues from SFxT? that's because the audio engine was not compatible with rollback netcode. it's not like sfii where the full effect plays regardless of whether or not a move hits or is stuffed. in modern games different parts of the audio are tied to different animation scripts.
  • sh0ultzsh0ultz Joined: Posts: 674 mod
    edited December 2014
    ilitirit wrote: »
    the game would have to be designed around ggpo. remember the sound issues from SFxT? that's because the audio engine was not compatible with rollback netcode.

    and like I said in the sfxt net code thread, the sound being bad is less than 5% of the game. It has very little impact on the game overall.

    being about to do inputs clean and responding to shit accurately is at least 95%.

    I think anyone would take that if you're a player. Now if you're a fanboy who cares more about the sound than the game, then its bad. Its why capcom should listen to the people who play the game, not the people who buy it then return it in the same week.

    none of that is directed towards you, I'm just stating things from the past
  • Raij1nRaij1n Joined: Posts: 1,184
    Whatever blazblu uses should suffice.
  • ProjectjusticeProjectjustice Psycho Denji Joined: Posts: 2,740 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    No thanks,
    GGPO is trash.

    Glad im not the only one that feels this way.
    Fightcade, Steam and XBL tag: Projectjustice
    PSN: Projectjustice77
  • SolidSonicTHSolidSonicTH Nyan-ko. Joined: Posts: 404
    I'd rather Capcom outsource the netcode to Bandai Namco and they reuse their netplay engine from Soul Calibur V/Tekken Tag Tournament 2.
    I'm a tryhard, big deal. I don't see why you care.
  • blufangblufang Devour! Joined: Posts: 4,487
    U haven't played Skullgirls have you?




  • StockyJamStockyJam Joined: Posts: 5,391
    +1 on rollback.
    necessary!
    input delay is as outdated as copper wire dial up.
  • ilitiritilitirit Joined: Posts: 6,381
    edited December 2014
    sh0ultz wrote: »
    and like I said in the sfxt net code thread, the sound being bad is less than 5% of the game. It has very little impact on the game overall.

    I think you're underestimating how bad it was in SFxT. The sound would just cut out completely on startup. It made it so that it was really hard to react to things using audio cues. Not only that, sometimes you'd get counter-hit and reversal messages popping up when there weren't any, which was problematic for twitch reacting and CH confirms.



    All these things can be avoided if the game is designed up front with the netcode in mind.
    Post edited by ilitirit on
  • sh0ultzsh0ultz Joined: Posts: 674 mod
    if you truly want to judge GGPO, you should give it a fair shake. By fair shake I mean playing someone you KNOW has a good connection while playing on one yourself. More often than not across the board this is a great playing session when the connection is within a certain distance. 110ms or under and the lower the better. Typically coastal play if everyone has good connections. What you can experience online is you never really know what type of connection your opponent is playing on. Wifi, share router when someone is watching netflix? those things play an impact on your connection regardless of how good yours is.

    I think GGPO is amazing because under the right circumstances like I mentioned above, you can use 90 something percent of your offline ability. 20 years from now, we still won't get perfect offline play so getting that close right now is actually pretty impressive from my perspective.

    no method is perfect, I'm not a GGPO advocate but rather an advocate of what can currently do the job the best. That role isn't filled by the input delay based sf4\umvc3 that allows less than 50% of offline play to be a factor. Maybe someday something better than GGPO comes out and I would be pushing for that instead. I wish there was a way to show people what sf4 is like online with a GGPO game like ST. Make them play under sf4 conditions vs GGPO conditions so they can see how different 1 game can be with 2 different methods of net-code.
  • SolidSonicTHSolidSonicTH Nyan-ko. Joined: Posts: 404
    Personally I thought SF4's netcode was okay. Not amazing but it was effective and you could have a good fight.

    SFxT's was much worse for some reason (of what I played). I was surprised how different they were.
    I'm a tryhard, big deal. I don't see why you care.
  • LockMLockM Joined: Posts: 2,447
    No idea what netcode TTT2, SC2 or VF5 have, but use that.
    Also i feel lag affects street fighter more so than some other games due to the strict timing of links as opposed to say some other fighters.

    SFxT online experience felt worse to me tbh, however this is probably the illusion delayed netplay creates in say SFIV, while it SFxT sometimes it skipped frames, it LOOKED smoother than SFxT.
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  • HawkingbirdHawkingbird I am thou...thou art I Joined: Posts: 25,646
    I'll be ok with Capcom improving on the rollback netcode they used for SFxT.
    PSN: Hawkingbird
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  • ZebsterZebster Joined: Posts: 3,738
    Could you ask for Alex, Q, Karin, and R. Mika while you're at it?
    KOF 14 team: Robert/King/K'
  • ArtVandelayArtVandelay Architect Joined: Posts: 5,343
    Dunno why people ride on the TTT2 netcode dick.
    I've got the game here and play it now and then and online play is terrible.
    There's no rollback in TTT2, the game just starts stuttering and going slowmo when the connection sucks.
    Sure it's better than USF4 on PC (though that's not hard) and PS3, but it's nowhere near great.

    There's only 1 fighting game I've ever played that has a great netcode and that's Skullgirls.
    You can fucking do online tournaments on Skullgirls without a problem and that's what I wish for for SFV.

    Would be nice to see some more online warriors representing at Capcom Cup and other tournaments.
    CFN: NaughtySenpai
  • sh0ultzsh0ultz Joined: Posts: 674 mod
    edited December 2014
    Dunno why people ride on the TTT2 netcode dick.
    I've got the game here and play it now and then and online play is terrible.
    There's no rollback in TTT2, the game just starts stuttering and going slowmo when the connection sucks.
    Sure it's better than USF4 on PC (though that's not hard) and PS3, but it's nowhere near great.

    There's only 1 fighting game I've ever played that has a great netcode and that's Skullgirls.
    You can fucking do online tournaments on Skullgirls without a problem and that's what I wish for for SFV.

    Would be nice to see some more online warriors representing at Capcom Cup and other tournaments.

    ttt2 isn't really that bad online. I play it every once in a while but in the grand scheme of tiers in net-code ttt2 is up there. Which is sad honestly...That just shows you how many bad games are online within the FGC.

    yes, skullgirls is AMAZING online. I had friend play and he completely forgot he was playing on the internet. I also agree with you on your wish of sfv being super great online so we can have online tournaments. That is 1 thing that separates FGC from all other esports and the only reason we're behind is because of how the community addresses new games.

    most are asking for fan service when in actuality we should be begging Capcom to get the game right + have a great online. Then once those things have been implemented rather well, then fan-service becomes the next jump. SRK, ehubs, capcomunity will not address those things as important so when Capcom asks what people want, its mostly bad players chiming in with 0 valid points as to why they should be listened to. Insert umvc3 sucks because it has megaman in it from the capcomunity board. Umvc3 is actually pretty good as a game, as far as marvel games go, but net-code is fucking shit garbage.

    There is this constant battle between pro\casual when the new games come out and casual market is infinitely louder so we receive crap most of the time. I do my part to speak up but for every 1 person like, there are 200-300 people on capcomunity, ehubs, srk saying the complete opposite that a good reasonable idea gets overshadowed by the mass of noise that is the FGC.
  • SweetJohnnyVSweetJohnnyV Streets ahead! Joined: Posts: 1,981 mod
    blufang wrote: »
    Rollback is infinitely better than input delay, there really is no argument.

    Yup!

    Really hoping they do the right thing this time around. Whether it's GGPO or their own custom code, there's really no excuse for not having rollback netcode this time around.

  • AsteriskBlueAsteriskBlue Joined: Posts: 759
    null
    Are you sure about SCV using a variation of ggpo? I've never heard that before
    It's nice to meet you, too.
  • gozulingozulin Defeated Sheng Long. Joined: Posts: 117
    When has capcom listened to fans regarding netcode?
  • XthAtGAm3RGuYXXthAtGAm3RGuYX SRK's ResidentSleeper Joined: Posts: 11,745
    Personally I've only ever heard complaints about SF4 netcode from people running shitty and/or wireless connections. Between being an online warrior for 4 years, and playing local casuals at the college, the difference is pretty insignificant. I can do combos with the same muscle memory and input timings for both scenarios. Things like marvel is one thing. The netcode for 4 though? It was pretty good considering you dont have other miscellaneous shit impeding your experience like throttling/bandwidth drought/network leeches/shitty router, etc.
    Unchallenged owner of worst user name on SRK

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  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,063 mod
    gozulin wrote: »
    When has capcom listened to fans regarding netcode?
    They did a pretty good job with MvC:O, VRes and 3SOE.
    You can't ask for well-thought-out changes off day 1, week 1, or mostly even month 1 play...and that's when the game is out and everyone's in the lab.
    -Mike_Z

    If there's anything we do best, it's breaking games and then making everyone suffer with all the cheapness.
    -PersiaXO
  • AsteriskBlueAsteriskBlue Joined: Posts: 759
    They also put rollback in cross tekken
    It's nice to meet you, too.
  • PerthoPertho The Runed One Joined: Posts: 21,919 mod
    d3v wrote: »
    gozulin wrote: »
    When has capcom listened to fans regarding netcode?
    They did a pretty good job with MvC:O, VRes and 3SOE.

    Those projects were handled by Capcom USA which is most definitely not handling SF5. Chances are slim if they aren't working towards implementing from the beginning. Things to press them on at Capcom Cup.
    Ronin Chaos on Pertho:

    "Oh, Pertho. You complete me."
    jimmy1200 wrote: »
    pertho attacked me first, saying i get all my life tips from 106th and park.
  • ihiraihira Adult fan of LEGO. Joined: Posts: 385
    Personally I've only ever heard complaints about SF4 netcode from people running shitty and/or wireless connections. Between being an online warrior for 4 years, and playing local casuals at the college, the difference is pretty insignificant. I can do combos with the same muscle memory and input timings for both scenarios. Things like marvel is one thing. The netcode for 4 though? It was pretty good considering you dont have other miscellaneous shit impeding your experience like throttling/bandwidth drought/network leeches/shitty router, etc.
    haha I was literally guessing how many posts in before this type of comment surfaces.
    they always use vague terms like 'its playable' 'pretty good' 'its good enough' that doesn't mean anything whatsoever.

    ahh
  • IglooBobIglooBob Bob the builder Joined: Posts: 4,039
    edited December 2014
    people should not bring up 3s as an example of good netcode implementation! yeah it's the best netcode for 3s. the game still is only a shell of itself online under GGPO.

    if 3s is used for anything it should be to point out what someone mentioned earlier - the game has to be built around online. 3s is clearly not a game that transfers well to online play. no one will ever say "you could run a tournament for 3s on GGPO netcode" lol. whereas SF4 was designed more with online play in mind so even under bad netcode people say "it's not so bad online."

    I'm guessing most modern games have online played figured into the design decisions. whether it's buffers, how big windows are, how fast characters move, how long you have to tech throw, I think companies are definitely factoring online in when they make decisions on these.
    Post edited by IglooBob on
  • TheBlackHombreTheBlackHombre Aesthetic Joined: Posts: 1,665
    edited December 2014
    Personally I've only ever heard complaints about SF4 netcode from people running shitty and/or wireless connections. Between being an online warrior for 4 years, and playing local casuals at the college, the difference is pretty insignificant. I can do combos with the same muscle memory and input timings for both scenarios. Things like marvel is one thing. The netcode for 4 though? It was pretty good considering you dont have other miscellaneous shit impeding your experience like throttling/bandwidth drought/network leeches/shitty router, etc.

    On a really really really solid green bar connection (within your own state), online SF4 can feel pretty close to offline. But the majority of times, it's booty; I used to avoid any kind of online play back when I lived in Orlando (since I could just play with the local sf4 players). A yellow bar connection SF4 is a vastly different experience vs offline SF4, not even taking the delay into account.

    brb can't punish random specials online (interrupting on reaction)
    brb can't do 1f punishes online
    brb AA's trading
    brb getting thrown out of shit I shouldn't be thrown out of
    brb people walking out of my safe jumps
    brb brb'ing

    Good netcode for fighting games needs to become a standard this generation.
  • sh0ultzsh0ultz Joined: Posts: 674 mod
    edited December 2014
    ihira wrote: »
    Personally I've only ever heard complaints about SF4 netcode from people running shitty and/or wireless connections. Between being an online warrior for 4 years, and playing local casuals at the college, the difference is pretty insignificant. I can do combos with the same muscle memory and input timings for both scenarios. Things like marvel is one thing. The netcode for 4 though? It was pretty good considering you dont have other miscellaneous shit impeding your experience like throttling/bandwidth drought/network leeches/shitty router, etc.
    haha I was literally guessing how many posts in before this type of comment surfaces.
    they always use vague terms like 'its playable' 'pretty good' 'its good enough' that doesn't mean anything whatsoever.

    ahh

    seriously, we need vegas odds on something like that. I'd start betting money on it lol
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,063 mod
  • SweetJohnnyVSweetJohnnyV Streets ahead! Joined: Posts: 1,981 mod
    Personally I've only ever heard complaints about SF4 netcode from people running shitty and/or wireless connections. Between being an online warrior for 4 years, and playing local casuals at the college, the difference is pretty insignificant. I can do combos with the same muscle memory and input timings for both scenarios.

    It's not about combos. Combos (mostly) work fine because the timing once you hit the first button is always the same. The exception to this is combos with breaks in them (ex. FADC-ing Oni's slash). The real problem with lag is the input delay.

    Delayed actions affect things like anti-airs, footsies, counter-hit confirms, blocking/countering fast moves (Honda torpedo, Balrog rush punches, Bison slide, etc), juggle timing, and so on. Anything that requires instant reaction or a specific timing is affected by (variable) input delay.

    To some degree, depending on the characters, SF4 is a lot more about hit confirms, fishing for option selects, vortex pressure, etc. It's not as heavy on fundamentals as say SF2. That helps mask these problems. But they do affect the finer points of play in any fighting game.
  • sh0ultzsh0ultz Joined: Posts: 674 mod
    the main difference I'm noticing from the sf4\mvc3 vanilla threads I made about these topics is that this perspective was NEVER on any front page of any of the FGC regular websites. For it to be a thing the developers hear, even the most mundane stream monster must be saying its HAS to be there for sfv.

    That means front page srk, front page ehubs, reddit groups and anything else addresses the problems about the current version of the net-code and how bad it is. After we mention the problem, we mention how to solve it to which there is a current solution.

    what would it take to get front page articles covering these net-code topics? I feel like that is the only time developers hear us.
  • Yusuke_The_DetectiveYusuke_The_Detective Life's a fleeting dream, don't let it go. Joined: Posts: 2,136
    I'm sure the netcode will be fine since the PS4 overall has better online stability.
    You gotta make the most of it you know.
  • sh0ultzsh0ultz Joined: Posts: 674 mod
    edited December 2014
    I'm sure the netcode will be fine since the PS4 overall has better online stability.

    skullgirls is amazing online, that stability was there for this generation of games. sf4\umvc3 should of been fucking fantastic online by default imo...

    I feel like there is this invisible layer we have to jump through. Most of the regular players see Japan playing online, see good American players playing online and think its playable. When in actuality those players are trying to maximize their abilities by taking anything they can to get better.

    stream monsters\casual audience which is well over 50% of the FGC end up perpetuating a myth that the game is playable online and then they all start saying it. I've ran into it literally for over 10 years on this forum and I could easily point you to the threads.

    at this point, I don't even know if Capcom realizes its a problem. They've never once admitted their games were bad online and they have even advertised their games being fantastic online before with umvc3. Which is easily one of the worst FG's online I've probably ever touched. As bad as first attempts like HF-ing\Cvs2 on the first xbox.

    at least if we punch them in the face about it now, they can't say we didn't ask for it and we should speak up next time.
    d3v wrote: »
    Fuck bars, we need ping numbers.

    the way skullgirls did it was genius. A good ping displayed the MS with a green color and a bad one was indicated by red. It helps technical\nontechnical people understand a good\bad connections.
  • AquasharkAquashark Mekong Delta AirRaid Joined: Posts: 1,540
    edited December 2014
    SF4 netcode "kinda works" for people with horrible connections (wireless, sharing connection with other devices, shit ISPs), while rollback netcode would make the game spaz out for them like crazy

    ..fuck these people! :disagree:
    bring rollback netcode with real ping for responsable players.

    i have no faith in Capcom though, they couldn't fix the 6 years old implementation of a delayed-based netcode on PC in the USF4 Steam version.
    SFxT was straight garbage for a good while, with remaining issues after they "fixed" it (not talking about PC version).

    don't get your hopes up..
    hello friends, my name is Drago Umeharevich from CrossCounter Balkans
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,063 mod
    sh0ultz wrote: »
    d3v wrote: »
    Fuck bars, we need ping numbers.

    the way skullgirls did it was genius. A good ping displayed the MS with a green color and a bad one was indicated by red. It helps technical\nontechnical people understand a good\bad connections.

    The other genius thing that Skullgirls did was have the ability to adjust the input delay before each match, once you saw the ping numbers (while also automatically recommending a delay setting for you). Capcom and Iron Galaxy dropped the ball on this when they made it so that you had to exit online and go to the options menu to change the delay level in 3SOE, VRes and MvC:O.
    You can't ask for well-thought-out changes off day 1, week 1, or mostly even month 1 play...and that's when the game is out and everyone's in the lab.
    -Mike_Z

    If there's anything we do best, it's breaking games and then making everyone suffer with all the cheapness.
    -PersiaXO
  • ihiraihira Adult fan of LEGO. Joined: Posts: 385
    d3v wrote: »
    Fuck bars, we need ping numbers.
    I seriously facepalm about this.
    I'm not just talking about Capcom here but most fighting games devs STILL do this in fucking 2014.
    Even namco's ttt2 where they implemented a lot of good online features (and vastly superior netcode compared to SF4) still refuse to display actual ping numbers for christ's sake

    Like what, do they actually think the average console gamer is tech-illitirate to understand what a ping number is?
    Is that going to scare away the tech-unsavvy users???
    How come indie games~$15 rerelease 2D titles do it but full priced games don't?

    While I'm on this rant you know what would also be an awesome feature?
    The ability to detect and filter out WIRELESS users. Or at least a kind reminder on the loading screen that says something like 'for optimal network performance, it is highly recommended to use a wired based connection NOT wireless' but of corse thats a huge no-no.

    The only dev's that actually 'get it' are like MikeZ.
    but Capcom? lololol

  • FrozteyFroztey The Ascended One Joined: Posts: 8,472 mod
    Ping numbers should be a standard for any game. Bars are stupid, what warrants a 3 bar connection, like 60 ping? What is the actual standard of my connection to the other player other than "It's green bro, good!"

    I hope to god it's a thing, and that more games start doing this. PC seems to do it enough, no idea why consoles barely ever do.
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