Net code discussion. Rollback confirmed!

2456737

Comments

  • sh0ultzsh0ultz Joined: Posts: 674 mod
    edited December 2014
    ihira wrote: »
    Personally I've only ever heard complaints about SF4 netcode from people running shitty and/or wireless connections. Between being an online warrior for 4 years, and playing local casuals at the college, the difference is pretty insignificant. I can do combos with the same muscle memory and input timings for both scenarios. Things like marvel is one thing. The netcode for 4 though? It was pretty good considering you dont have other miscellaneous shit impeding your experience like throttling/bandwidth drought/network leeches/shitty router, etc.
    haha I was literally guessing how many posts in before this type of comment surfaces.
    they always use vague terms like 'its playable' 'pretty good' 'its good enough' that doesn't mean anything whatsoever.

    ahh

    seriously, we need vegas odds on something like that. I'd start betting money on it lol
  • SweetJohnnyVSweetJohnnyV Streets ahead! Joined: Posts: 1,981 mod
    Personally I've only ever heard complaints about SF4 netcode from people running shitty and/or wireless connections. Between being an online warrior for 4 years, and playing local casuals at the college, the difference is pretty insignificant. I can do combos with the same muscle memory and input timings for both scenarios.

    It's not about combos. Combos (mostly) work fine because the timing once you hit the first button is always the same. The exception to this is combos with breaks in them (ex. FADC-ing Oni's slash). The real problem with lag is the input delay.

    Delayed actions affect things like anti-airs, footsies, counter-hit confirms, blocking/countering fast moves (Honda torpedo, Balrog rush punches, Bison slide, etc), juggle timing, and so on. Anything that requires instant reaction or a specific timing is affected by (variable) input delay.

    To some degree, depending on the characters, SF4 is a lot more about hit confirms, fishing for option selects, vortex pressure, etc. It's not as heavy on fundamentals as say SF2. That helps mask these problems. But they do affect the finer points of play in any fighting game.
  • sh0ultzsh0ultz Joined: Posts: 674 mod
    the main difference I'm noticing from the sf4\mvc3 vanilla threads I made about these topics is that this perspective was NEVER on any front page of any of the FGC regular websites. For it to be a thing the developers hear, even the most mundane stream monster must be saying its HAS to be there for sfv.

    That means front page srk, front page ehubs, reddit groups and anything else addresses the problems about the current version of the net-code and how bad it is. After we mention the problem, we mention how to solve it to which there is a current solution.

    what would it take to get front page articles covering these net-code topics? I feel like that is the only time developers hear us.
  • Yusuke_The_DetectiveYusuke_The_Detective Life's a fleeting dream, don't let it go. Joined: Posts: 2,136
    I'm sure the netcode will be fine since the PS4 overall has better online stability.
    You gotta make the most of it you know.
  • sh0ultzsh0ultz Joined: Posts: 674 mod
    edited December 2014
    I'm sure the netcode will be fine since the PS4 overall has better online stability.

    skullgirls is amazing online, that stability was there for this generation of games. sf4\umvc3 should of been fucking fantastic online by default imo...

    I feel like there is this invisible layer we have to jump through. Most of the regular players see Japan playing online, see good American players playing online and think its playable. When in actuality those players are trying to maximize their abilities by taking anything they can to get better.

    stream monsters\casual audience which is well over 50% of the FGC end up perpetuating a myth that the game is playable online and then they all start saying it. I've ran into it literally for over 10 years on this forum and I could easily point you to the threads.

    at this point, I don't even know if Capcom realizes its a problem. They've never once admitted their games were bad online and they have even advertised their games being fantastic online before with umvc3. Which is easily one of the worst FG's online I've probably ever touched. As bad as first attempts like HF-ing\Cvs2 on the first xbox.

    at least if we punch them in the face about it now, they can't say we didn't ask for it and we should speak up next time.
    d3v wrote: »
    Fuck bars, we need ping numbers.

    the way skullgirls did it was genius. A good ping displayed the MS with a green color and a bad one was indicated by red. It helps technical\nontechnical people understand a good\bad connections.
  • AquasharkAquashark Mekong Delta AirRaid Joined: Posts: 1,540
    edited December 2014
    SF4 netcode "kinda works" for people with horrible connections (wireless, sharing connection with other devices, shit ISPs), while rollback netcode would make the game spaz out for them like crazy

    ..fuck these people! :disagree:
    bring rollback netcode with real ping for responsable players.

    i have no faith in Capcom though, they couldn't fix the 6 years old implementation of a delayed-based netcode on PC in the USF4 Steam version.
    SFxT was straight garbage for a good while, with remaining issues after they "fixed" it (not talking about PC version).

    don't get your hopes up..
    hello friends, my name is Drago Umeharevich from CrossCounter Balkans
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,723 mod
    sh0ultz wrote: »
    d3v wrote: »
    Fuck bars, we need ping numbers.

    the way skullgirls did it was genius. A good ping displayed the MS with a green color and a bad one was indicated by red. It helps technical\nontechnical people understand a good\bad connections.

    The other genius thing that Skullgirls did was have the ability to adjust the input delay before each match, once you saw the ping numbers (while also automatically recommending a delay setting for you). Capcom and Iron Galaxy dropped the ball on this when they made it so that you had to exit online and go to the options menu to change the delay level in 3SOE, VRes and MvC:O.
  • ihiraihira Adult fan of LEGO. Joined: Posts: 385
    d3v wrote: »
    Fuck bars, we need ping numbers.
    I seriously facepalm about this.
    I'm not just talking about Capcom here but most fighting games devs STILL do this in fucking 2014.
    Even namco's ttt2 where they implemented a lot of good online features (and vastly superior netcode compared to SF4) still refuse to display actual ping numbers for christ's sake

    Like what, do they actually think the average console gamer is tech-illitirate to understand what a ping number is?
    Is that going to scare away the tech-unsavvy users???
    How come indie games~$15 rerelease 2D titles do it but full priced games don't?

    While I'm on this rant you know what would also be an awesome feature?
    The ability to detect and filter out WIRELESS users. Or at least a kind reminder on the loading screen that says something like 'for optimal network performance, it is highly recommended to use a wired based connection NOT wireless' but of corse thats a huge no-no.

    The only dev's that actually 'get it' are like MikeZ.
    but Capcom? lololol

  • FrozteyFroztey Break the Cuffs Joined: Posts: 9,391 mod
    Ping numbers should be a standard for any game. Bars are stupid, what warrants a 3 bar connection, like 60 ping? What is the actual standard of my connection to the other player other than "It's green bro, good!"

    I hope to god it's a thing, and that more games start doing this. PC seems to do it enough, no idea why consoles barely ever do.
    UK Based, SFV - Kolin, Juri
    YouTube
    Twitch
  • AsteriskBlueAsteriskBlue Joined: Posts: 761
    All right. So what steps can be taken to show capcom are thoughts about netcode?
    It's nice to meet you, too.
  • DarksakulDarksakul Your lack of faith disturbs me Joined: Posts: 23,361
    I wonder if there a political or legal reason Capcom will not touch GGPO.
    “Strong people don't put others down... They lift them up.”
    - Darth Vader, Philanthropist
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,723 mod
    Darksakul wrote: »
    I wonder if there a political or legal reason Capcom will not touch GGPO.
    It's more about Capcom Japan being idiots. Capcom USA is more than willing to use is.

    That said, they've already tried their hand at their own rollback implementation, so it shows that they do know that it's important.
  • sh0ultzsh0ultz Joined: Posts: 674 mod
    All right. So what steps can be taken to show capcom are thoughts about netcode?

    I think one of my ideas went overlooked but I already thought of a way to do that. However, I can't do it by myself. I need people who can pull it off.
    sh0ultz wrote: »
    the main difference I'm noticing from the sf4\mvc3 vanilla threads I made about these topics is that this perspective was NEVER on any front page of any of the FGC regular websites. For it to be a thing the developers hear, even the most mundane stream monster must be saying its HAS to be there for sfv.

    That means front page srk, front page ehubs, reddit groups and anything else addresses the problems about the current version of the net-code and how bad it is. After we mention the problem, we mention how to solve it to which there is a current solution.

    what would it take to get front page articles covering these net-code topics? I feel like that is the only time developers hear us.

  • caliagent#3caliagent#3 Caliagent Bobblehead Joined: Posts: 4,187 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Anyone arguing input delay based netcode over being able to do things on reaction is an idiot. The very least Capcom can do if we don't get ggpo is to give us SFxT netcode.
    Whiff your entire SOUL into c.MK in 3S.
    Footsies guide: www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbpXplP_WFE
  • JasonWalravenJasonWalraven Joined: Posts: 539
    SFxT Netcode is terrible!!!!
  • RoGE9RoGE9 Joined: Posts: 1,703
    Just letting you all know, ggpo gives you an option for input delay or rollback in the options, just turn up the delay. Honestly, there's no excuse not to use it.

    If it DOES get implemented, allow us to change the delay, depending on the ping you may want more or less rollback/input delay.
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,723 mod
    SFxT Netcode is terrible!!!!
    Aside from the sound issues, SFxT netcode was actually pretty decent before the patch. The patch made it worse since I believe they increased the delay threshold that the system gave you.\

    IMO, aside from the sound, the only real issue with SFxT's netcode was that you couldn't adjust the delay threshold.
  • gozulingozulin Defeated Sheng Long. Joined: Posts: 117
    Froztey wrote: »
    Ping numbers should be a standard for any game. Bars are stupid, what warrants a 3 bar connection, like 60 ping? What is the actual standard of my connection to the other player other than "It's green bro, good!"

    The engineer in me agrees with you, but maybe it's a ploy to prevent players from declining people based on overly high ping standards.
  • NecrotrophicNecrotrophic Isn't a communist. Joined: Posts: 5,910
    I think Ono is hinting at GGPO being implemented when he says itll have something everyone wants.
    Northeast PA
    570 Necro
  • XthAtGAm3RGuYXXthAtGAm3RGuYX SRK's ResidentSleeper Joined: Posts: 11,893
    ihira wrote: »
    Personally I've only ever heard complaints about SF4 netcode from people running shitty and/or wireless connections. Between being an online warrior for 4 years, and playing local casuals at the college, the difference is pretty insignificant. I can do combos with the same muscle memory and input timings for both scenarios. Things like marvel is one thing. The netcode for 4 though? It was pretty good considering you dont have other miscellaneous shit impeding your experience like throttling/bandwidth drought/network leeches/shitty router, etc.
    haha I was literally guessing how many posts in before this type of comment surfaces.
    they always use vague terms like 'its playable' 'pretty good' 'its good enough' that doesn't mean anything whatsoever.

    ahh

    So because somebody got a shitty connection, that invalidates my experience with the game?

    Lol k

    I had no issue with the netcode yellow bars and up on an ethernet connection. I'm also playing on a CRT so I dont know if that also plays a factor.
    And how the fuck are "it's playable" and "it's pretty good" vague terminology? Secondly, I didnt even use those terms. I'm struggling to understand the point of that post.
    Unchallenged owner of worst user name on SRK
  • StockyJamStockyJam Joined: Posts: 5,624
    sh0ultz wrote: »
    There is this constant battle between pro\casual when the new games come out and casual market is infinitely louder so we receive crap most of the time. I do my part to speak up but for every 1 person like, there are 200-300 people on capcomunity, ehubs, srk saying the complete opposite that a good reasonable idea gets overshadowed by the mass of noise that is the FGC.

    welcome to the world of most old school players.

  • ihiraihira Adult fan of LEGO. Joined: Posts: 385
    d3v wrote: »
    Darksakul wrote: »
    I wonder if there a political or legal reason Capcom will not touch GGPO.
    It's more about Capcom Japan being idiots. Capcom USA is more than willing to use is.

    That said, they've already tried their hand at their own rollback implementation, so it shows that they do know that it's important.

    They know it. At least Ayano was hyping up how ggpo was a feature for Darkstalkers:R
    But I believe DS:R was done by Iron Galaxy so yea that just backs up the 'Capcom Japan being idiots' part


  • StockyJamStockyJam Joined: Posts: 5,624
    I remember playing fiends in Ultra when I still had it installed....and we were playing in a private lobby and the game would crash for all of us. All 5 of us. game would close, and so would the steam app! surprised our PCs wouldn't shut down and go into safe mode to top it all off.

    my friend called it a "disgusting bug."

    disgusting is an understatement. but yeah, some people wanna call that game playable. whatevs.
    I uninstalled it before it ever got a chance to hand out viruses to everyone lol.
  • Vampire_SaviourVampire_Saviour R4 Joined: Posts: 333
    shoultz I'm with you GGPO is excellent on everything I've used it with. Please, to the newcomers, make this case to Capcom: GGPO-based netcode is a must.
  • ihiraihira Adult fan of LEGO. Joined: Posts: 385
    ihira wrote: »
    Personally I've only ever heard complaints about SF4 netcode from people running shitty and/or wireless connections. Between being an online warrior for 4 years, and playing local casuals at the college, the difference is pretty insignificant. I can do combos with the same muscle memory and input timings for both scenarios. Things like marvel is one thing. The netcode for 4 though? It was pretty good considering you dont have other miscellaneous shit impeding your experience like throttling/bandwidth drought/network leeches/shitty router, etc.
    haha I was literally guessing how many posts in before this type of comment surfaces.
    they always use vague terms like 'its playable' 'pretty good' 'its good enough' that doesn't mean anything whatsoever.

    ahh

    So because somebody got a shitty connection, that invalidates my experience with the game?

    Lol k

    I had no issue with the netcode yellow bars and up on an ethernet connection. I'm also playing on a CRT so I dont know if that also plays a factor.
    And how the fuck are "it's playable" and "it's pretty good" vague terminology? Secondly, I didnt even use those terms. I'm struggling to understand the point of that post.

    The point of the post is you are likely ignorant in terms of playing fighting games at any serious level if you legitimately think yellow bars are acceptable. Things such as importance of responsiveness, reaction based gameplay are an alien concept to you (and many other people).
  • FrozteyFroztey Break the Cuffs Joined: Posts: 9,391 mod
    edited December 2014
    My experience with SF4 on the 360 was fantastic, best netcode in a fighter I've played. GFWL PC was even better, if SF4 doesn't have rollback I don't think it's a "necessity" for SF5 as much as a positive addition. I'm genuinely starting to think some of the complaints stem from bad connections, but everyone is entitled to opinions and I'm sure people have experienced issues with online with a good connection. I just don't think rollback is the primary concern that's all, as long as it is on par with SF4's green bar connections I would be content.
    UK Based, SFV - Kolin, Juri
    YouTube
    Twitch
  • Zio_NameZio_Name Joined: Posts: 342
    Froztey wrote: »
    My experience with SF4 on the 360 was fantastic, best netcode in a fighter I've played. GFWL PC was even better, if SF4 doesn't have rollback I don't think it's a "necessity" for SF5 as much as a positive addition. I'm genuinely starting to think some of the complaints stem from bad connections, but everyone is entitled to opinions and I'm sure people have experienced issues with online with a good connection. I just don't think rollback is the primary concern that's all, as long as it is on par with SF4's green bar connections I would be content.

    I'm almost sure that's the case too. But while i have an excellent DSL connection (for what can be considered "excellent" in Italy, though, and i guess that an average of 40-50 ms of ping with all Europe is probably a good result in anyway), sometimes, i can definitely feel that the problem is on the other end of the match, the other player. GGPO solves that. I can play people pretty decently even with 250-300 ms of ping both on GGPO with classic Capcom Fighters and on PC with Skullgirls..
  • fischbsfischbs stop that Joined: Posts: 1,175
    GGPO is fucking great when you aren't facing morons who have 0 input delay and lag the game to death.
    You can use BBCode in your post. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
  • StockyJamStockyJam Joined: Posts: 5,624
    d3v wrote: »
    If you've played the same people on a GGPO/rollback enabled game and on SFIV, you will feel the difference.

    I think a lot of people who don't care if rollback gets used or not have never even been on GGPO to have those opinions. Or used it properly. I cant imagine someone that has been on GGPO saying they wouldn't mind if SF5 doesn't use it.

  • blufangblufang Devour! Joined: Posts: 4,487
    I think a lot of people who don't care if rollback gets used or not have never even been on GGPO to have those opinions. Or used it properly. I cant imagine someone that has been on GGPO saying they wouldn't mind if SF5 doesn't use it.

    True, and when the blind lead the blind don't they both fall off a cliff? Anyone who thinks input delay is find, go buy Skullgirls when it is on sale (a lot) or play ggpo on PC (any cheap computer will be able to run those games) and see for yourself. You'll feel really stupid when u see what good online is like.





  • DooplissDoopliss Joined: Posts: 3,181
    I thought GGPO didn't work very well for 3D games?
    Maybe Doopliss isn't kicking ass, but he's taking names.

    "Combo Hunter", A Street Fighter V Season 2 Combo Video
  • Pro MarshmalloPro Marshmallo Joined: Posts: 494
    Ping counts and some kind of rollback netcode, GGPO or not, needs to be used. Lag and slowdown is murder on charge characters.
    SFV: Boxer, Claw, Alex
    USFIV: Boxer, Dictator, Guile, Hugo, Dudley
    Injustice: Zod, Bane
    KOF XIII: Vice, Clark, Leona
  • NecrotrophicNecrotrophic Isn't a communist. Joined: Posts: 5,910
    Doopliss wrote: »
    I thought GGPO didn't work very well for 3D games?

    I think thats just something capcom said to shut people up. The game does not need to send graphical information, just inputs.

    If they want to make sure the animations match whatever was there before roll back, then they can just send ONE number with it the inputs, and the number can represent the time at which the lag took place, let the local machine figure out what the animation is supposed to be like.


    I'm a computer programmer and I dont buy for a second that GGPO cant be used for 2.5D fighting games.
    Northeast PA
    570 Necro
  • LoghornLoghorn Joined: Posts: 292
    That's a good idea.
  • AsteriskBlueAsteriskBlue Joined: Posts: 761
    edited December 2014
    My example: I thought sf4 had decent online play until skullgirls came out. It really was like night and day. Then, on top of that, they updated SG's netcode with the first major patch and it actually got even better. Most anything under 100 ping feels extremely close to offline. DS:R was the same. SF4's netcode can't compare to GGPO.
    Post edited by AsteriskBlue on
    It's nice to meet you, too.
  • ihiraihira Adult fan of LEGO. Joined: Posts: 385
    sh0ultz wrote: »
    Even if wong, valle came in here and said, sf4 is GREAT online. I would say something similar to them if they offered no logical argument. However, very rarely do OGs do that. Its ALWAYS new players.
    Correct.
    Top players, or any player that plays Fighting games with an ounce of competitiveness in it for that matter, will rarely say such thing.
    They know the importance of responsiveness for fighting games. They understand how it affects the gameplay (hint: in a negative manner).
    They have years of playing and can detect even 1-2 frames of lag compared to offline play. It hinders their experience of how the game should be played. Its frustrating that you have no choice but to play with input lag.

    Its really astounding how so many players actually think SF4 netcode is 'fine' and tolerate it.
    Thats pretty fucking sad that I'm in minority in the FGC if I want my inputs to be crisp responsive and as close to offline timings as possible.
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 56,777 mod
    The creators of GGPO helped advise for the netcode for KI and its definitely among the best. I'm sure no one's mentioned yet since not many people here probably have the game, but along with Skullgirls it's really up there.

    After KI there is no excuse for SFV to not have GGPO. Capcom already showed that they were trying to move towards rollback netcode with SFxT. Expect them to have GGPO or their own rollback netcode by release.

    Ain't nothin, Capcom's ruthless still producin.  Cut em a check or find yoself toothless.  Keep it shill with no confusin.  Niggas say I'm shill...they ain't hard I can prove it YEEEAH


Sign In or Register to comment.