LS-40 and JLW mods thread (JLW-01 and JL-40W featured)

2

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  • DarksakulDarksakul Your lack of faith disturbs me Joined: Posts: 24,245
    Tensho wrote: »
    Thanks, so I guess TM-8 it is, it should fit in those 2 sticks no problem then? The plate has the same mounting holes as a JLF?
    Yes, the JLW mount plate has the same four main mount holes as the JLF. it be a tight squeeze but a JLW can fit in a TE. I have a JLW installed into a Hrap V4 (instead of the Hayabusa joystick).
    “Strong people don't put others down... They lift them up.”
    - Darth Vader, Philanthropist
  • DarksakulDarksakul Your lack of faith disturbs me Joined: Posts: 24,245
    NENDO wrote: »
    rcaido wrote: »
    Pictures of your cabinet's mounts?

    Also worth pointing out that the ls40 is fine to flush mount in your panzer stick (or any of Jasen's panels).
    http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r225/baklakiller/20141216_105046_zpss197oyev.jpg


    Paradise only had the one Universal Plate, not the S plate version that i know of....Also the Kowal S plate i think is ideal for the Astro Seimitsu panels wanting to put Sanwa JLF instead.

    There's a Paradise Universal S plate but it's not available yet.
    They haven't came out since the kick starter Universal S plates were made?

    BTW I used the S-plate to install a LS-40 in my TE using the same mount holes you would use with the Sanwa mount on that arcade panel
    Yes I know I should get pictures.
    “Strong people don't put others down... They lift them up.”
    - Darth Vader, Philanthropist
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde Resident tech talk double poster Joined: Posts: 4,838
    I know they have Universal S plates because I have one. I used it on my JLW.
    Disclaimer: I work for Paradise Arcade Shop. My posts are probably biased. Take that into consideration. Bye!
  • TenshoTensho Joined: Posts: 2,884
    Do Jlf shaft covers fit on the TM-8?
  • DarksakulDarksakul Your lack of faith disturbs me Joined: Posts: 24,245
    edited December 2014
    Tensho wrote: »
    Do Jlf shaft covers fit on the TM-8?

    sorta, the shaft is the rigth thickness, but the shaft is a bit on the long side (so the shaft cover ends up too short).
    You might want washers or something to shim the shaft cover up
    “Strong people don't put others down... They lift them up.”
    - Darth Vader, Philanthropist
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde Resident tech talk double poster Joined: Posts: 4,838
    Actually in the pictures I posted of the sunken dust washer mod at the end of the JL40W, you can see a JLF shaft cover on the TM shaft. You'll see it poke out a bit, and it's also been shimmed up in that image. Normally the TM shaft is about 2 mm higher than a shaft cover, so you will need a nylon washer that is about 2 mm tall to get it right.
    Disclaimer: I work for Paradise Arcade Shop. My posts are probably biased. Take that into consideration. Bye!
  • TenshoTensho Joined: Posts: 2,884
    Alright, I'll try and find a nylon ring to match the proper thickness at the store, not a big fan of a gap between the balltop and shaft cover. :p
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde Resident tech talk double poster Joined: Posts: 4,838
    If you don't find one, you could also hit the plumping/faucet aisle and look for o-rings. Nice thing about those, they're stretchy and you can get them thick enough to do the job.
    Disclaimer: I work for Paradise Arcade Shop. My posts are probably biased. Take that into consideration. Bye!
  • VOLDOMVOLDOM Joined: Posts: 144
    edited December 2014
    Funny that you prefer the harder spring of the JLW, I don't, and thats why the old version of the JLW is my all time favourite joystick, it used to ship with a softer spring and Omron switches, I discovered this when I got my Status cabinet, its an old Capcom cab from the time when the JLW was Sanwa's mainstream joystick, the Capcom Power stick fighter for the SNES also comes with this older version of the JLW.

    I'm also curious to know what are your preferred games to play on a stick, since I can't play fighters with the LS-40 without F***/*g up my execution with accidental jumps, other than that it is a very good joystick.
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde Resident tech talk double poster Joined: Posts: 4,838
    edited December 2014
    I play Street Fighter on stick. I don't have the random jump problem any more so than on something else, like a JLF. That reminds me, if you want a weaker spring for the JLW you could swap in a LS-32/40 spring and it would work perfectly.
    Disclaimer: I work for Paradise Arcade Shop. My posts are probably biased. Take that into consideration. Bye!
  • VOLDOMVOLDOM Joined: Posts: 144
    edited December 2014
    Yes, I have already tried with an LS-32 spring but it felt too loose, I didn't like it, if someone could make reproductions of the old JLW springs that would awesome.

    edit: sorry for hijack your thread but heres a photo showing the different springs:

    2014-12-28_12-18-43_958_zps0fa8bc55.jpg
    Post edited by VOLDOM on
  • TenshoTensho Joined: Posts: 2,884
    The JLW spring is similar to the Ls-40/56 spring? Have you tried a custom JLF 1.5-2lb spring?
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde Resident tech talk double poster Joined: Posts: 4,838
    You can't really use the JLF custom springs. I even sacrificed a JLF flange to make fit on the JLW and it didn't work out too well. It worked but felt really off. It's possible the hole wasn't smooth enough for the JLF part.
    Disclaimer: I work for Paradise Arcade Shop. My posts are probably biased. Take that into consideration. Bye!
  • ChananigansChananigans Joined: Posts: 427
    edited December 2014
    Ultimarc makes replacement springs for the JLW, they also have a heavier spring. It's for their J-Stik and Ultrastik lines, which are just JLWs (hall effect modded in the case if the Ultrastik). They also have different gates, stock square, octagonal, and even circular. Also, have longer shafts.
  • TenshoTensho Joined: Posts: 2,884
    Kowals site seems down, does the JLW have a shorter throw and engage than the LS-40 and 56?
  • DarksakulDarksakul Your lack of faith disturbs me Joined: Posts: 24,245
    Tensho wrote: »
    Kowals site seems down, does the JLW have a shorter throw and engage than the LS-40 and 56?

    Slag Coin does have ratings for the throw and engage for all 3 Joysticks. http://www.slagcoin.com/joystick/attributes_brands.html
    but no exact figures are given

    According to Slag Coin; both the Sanwa JLF and the Seimitsu LS-40 has a short throw whole the LS-56 has a medium throw.

    LS-56 has a medium engage, the LS-40 has a short engage and both versions of the JLW has a Far engage.
    “Strong people don't put others down... They lift them up.”
    - Darth Vader, Philanthropist
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde Resident tech talk double poster Joined: Posts: 4,838
    edited January 2015
    Because the shafts are longer on the JLW it will have longer throw/engage. The levers are not all that different from one another when it comes to that stuff, many of them share similar enough measurements when it comes to switch layout and actuator size, and also the ratios of those measurements to each other. With tweaking you can make any lever similar enough, so IMO the things I look for in a lever is the quality of the parts and ease of switch swapping.

    Depending on where you hold the shaft can also change the throw/engage as well as the height of a bat top or ball top.
    Disclaimer: I work for Paradise Arcade Shop. My posts are probably biased. Take that into consideration. Bye!
  • TenshoTensho Joined: Posts: 2,884
    I have this but I remember people were saying it's not accurate
    7Sz0vXM.png
    But I also have this but the JLW isn't on it but if it has a slightly longer throw and engage than the LS-40 then I guess that's all I need to know
    MPczWZG.png

  • MoonchildeMoonchilde Resident tech talk double poster Joined: Posts: 4,838
    edited January 2015
    Keep in mind there are other aspects to the JLW which probably put it close to LS-40. For example, JLW has a wider diameter on the actuator, making it easier to hit the switches. The bell is also straight on the JLW compared to the LS-40 which has a slight and barely noticeable slope to it. That's also something to consider. Because of this, both levers hit the switches at slightly different angles, with JLW hitting earlier from the 90 degree bell. Factor in the switches are actually mounted further away from the underside of the pivot on JLW which means less distance to travel.

    IMO, they're fairly similar in many ways, the switch measurements are close enough that you can mount a LS=32 PCB onto a JLW and not need to mod further. A stock JLW never really let me down besides the gate seeming a little defective since I had engagement issues with some switches engaging earlier than others, which is why I did the JL40W v2 mod.

    Oh, that reminds me! I should do some soldering soon.
    Disclaimer: I work for Paradise Arcade Shop. My posts are probably biased. Take that into consideration. Bye!
  • TenshoTensho Joined: Posts: 2,884
    Hmm, guess I'll have to try both then
  • skaloolaskaloola Joined: Posts: 172
    edited March 2015
    so this seemed like the most appropriate thread for this.

    i have a jlw and i really like how it is stock, but i bought a bunch of microswitches and wanted to try them out.

    the stock microswitches on my JLW don't seem to say anything on them except "Sanwa". Anyone know what the actuation force on these are?

    I tried a few types Gersung (from m fanta), Omron v-152-1a5 (felt similar to stock), and d2rv-lg. Feels best stock so far, but i think I'd like the d2rv-lg's with a heavier spring.

    Going to try some of your mods this weekend.

    edit: ever tried the Ultimarc modded JLW (cant remember the name off the top of my head). Any thoughts on that?
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde Resident tech talk double poster Joined: Posts: 4,838
    Never tried Ultimarc anything.

    Stock Sanwa branded Zippy switches on a JLW should be close to 200 gf or 1.98 newtons. D2RV-LG I think are closer to 100 or 125 gf.
    Disclaimer: I work for Paradise Arcade Shop. My posts are probably biased. Take that into consideration. Bye!
  • triple_leitriple_lei Fan of green-mouthed Zangief Joined: Posts: 104
    Wow. I've had a JLW-TM-8 for about a decade because I read they were supposed to install easier in an X-Arcade. Never bothered and it's just been sitting in its bag. Now you're saying I could get an LS-32, gut it, and actually use the JLW? Awesome.

    And heck, if it doesn't pan out, I'll have an LS-32. Seems to get equal amounts of praise/hate just like the JLW itself, but I'll be the judge of that...
  • skaloolaskaloola Joined: Posts: 172
    so with d2rv-LGs on the jlw I'm running into something weird. 2 of the four cardinal directions get stopped by the gate before they engage. rotating it or trying to adjust it slightly only results in 2 other directions not engaging.

    did I get a bad restrictor gate or..?

    I mean I get that some switches might not be compatible, but you'd think either all of the direct ions would engage or none of them would.
  • NENDONENDO I will meditate and then destroy you. Joined: Posts: 3,351
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde Resident tech talk double poster Joined: Posts: 4,838
    skaloola wrote: »
    so with d2rv-LGs on the jlw I'm running into something weird. 2 of the four cardinal directions get stopped by the gate before they engage. rotating it or trying to adjust it slightly only results in 2 other directions not engaging.

    did I get a bad restrictor gate or..?

    I mean I get that some switches might not be compatible, but you'd think either all of the direct ions would engage or none of them would.

    No, actually that was one of the exact reasons I did the mod in the first place. I had the same exact problem, on 2 separate JLW levers. Both gates did the same exact thing. Methinks there is a manufacturing defect with the measurements of the gate. Even with stock switches, 2 directions activate at different distances than the other 2. It's usually down/left vs up/right, or however you have the gate rotated.
    Disclaimer: I work for Paradise Arcade Shop. My posts are probably biased. Take that into consideration. Bye!
  • NENDONENDO I will meditate and then destroy you. Joined: Posts: 3,351
    Wow. I haven't had this problem.
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde Resident tech talk double poster Joined: Posts: 4,838
    edited April 2015
    Should double check. Light touch switches are very noticeable since for example, Zippy and Omron reed switches engage a bit deeper than standard Omron switches or lack the tension to get that "oomph" to push down on. What you may want to do is look at where the actuator hits each switch and clicks and compare the distance of the actuator from the gate in each direction. It wouldn't surprise me of 2 were near touching the gate and 2 were about a mm away from the gate. That's how both my JLW levers were and seems to be the case for @skaloola as well.
    Disclaimer: I work for Paradise Arcade Shop. My posts are probably biased. Take that into consideration. Bye!
  • skaloolaskaloola Joined: Posts: 172
    edited April 2015
    Weird. This is really surprising tom me as this is Sanwas most mature lever. So I was thinking up of ways to workaround this (without turning it into a jlw-40).. and I figured I'd just use it without a restrictor gate at all.

    In place of the restrictor gate, I screwed in some washers to keep the microswitches in place. I was playing Guilty Gear with it for 20 min or so. It actually feels pretty good, but still need to play some more.
    NENDO wrote: »
    Pics, @skaloola?

    I can post some pics if you still want me to, but I doubt there's anything you'd be able to tell from them.
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde Resident tech talk double poster Joined: Posts: 4,838
    It's pretty easy to not take notice of it stock. It isn't until you start using switches that engage deeper that you do. Most people aren't like us and don't mod their levers all that much.
    Disclaimer: I work for Paradise Arcade Shop. My posts are probably biased. Take that into consideration. Bye!
  • NENDONENDO I will meditate and then destroy you. Joined: Posts: 3,351
    I've modded mine to a JLW-01 and I really can't tell if there is any difference in the distance from actuator to gate in any direction. I'll break out my caliper later tonight and see if I can get some measurements.
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde Resident tech talk double poster Joined: Posts: 4,838
    Try without the PCB. I think it could be a number of things, such as the switches resting loose on those protrusions on the base. Try Zippy 20 gram if you have them, or reed switches. Something that activates deep.
    Disclaimer: I work for Paradise Arcade Shop. My posts are probably biased. Take that into consideration. Bye!
  • NENDONENDO I will meditate and then destroy you. Joined: Posts: 3,351
    Moonchilde wrote: »
    Try without the PCB. I think it could be a number of things, such as the switches resting loose on those protrusions on the base. Try Zippy 20 gram if you have them, or reed switches. Something that activates deep.

    Copy that.
  • VOLDOMVOLDOM Joined: Posts: 144
    Thought I could share this here since this could be the only JLW talk on the internet,

    My main gripe with the JLW was always it's flimsy acrylic restrictor gates, but a few days ago while I was dismantling an old candy cab that I got, one thing called my attention, the sticks that came mounted looked very similar to JLW's but these were awful and made in China, although the restrictor gate while looking like straight clone of the JLW round gate, they seem to be made of nylon, my first thought was to try it on an actual JLW and this is what I got:

    100_1688_zps7vfdingl.jpg

    100_1690_zpsijqftriz.jpg

    I installed it over the original square restrictor gate, it doesn't change the actual "feel" of the stick but it adds to the robustness of the gate.
  • DarksakulDarksakul Your lack of faith disturbs me Joined: Posts: 24,245
    edited May 2015
    VOLDOM wrote: »
    Thought I could share this here since this could be the only JLW talk on the internet,

    My main gripe with the JLW was always it's flimsy acrylic restrictor gates, but a few days ago while I was dismantling an old candy cab that I got, one thing called my attention, the sticks that came mounted looked very similar to JLW's but these were awful and made in China, although the restrictor gate while looking like straight clone of the JLW round gate, they seem to be made of nylon, my first thought was to try it on an actual JLW and this is what I got:

    http://s880.photobucket.com/user/chinitosoccer/media/100_1688_zps7vfdingl.jpg.html

    http://s880.photobucket.com/user/chinitosoccer/media/100_1690_zpsijqftriz.jpg.html

    I installed it over the original square restrictor gate, it doesn't change the actual "feel" of the stick but it adds to the robustness of the gate.

    I agree, there should be better materials than acrylic on the JLW, the gate is the weakest point of the design. ABS, Nylon, Derlin, metal, ect...
    I saw somewhere someone had an aluminum gate but I never found out where he got it.

    “Strong people don't put others down... They lift them up.”
    - Darth Vader, Philanthropist
  • AgiezeAgieze Joined: Posts: 315
    Darksakul wrote: »
    VOLDOM wrote: »
    Thought I could share this here since this could be the only JLW talk on the internet,

    My main gripe with the JLW was always it's flimsy acrylic restrictor gates, but a few days ago while I was dismantling an old candy cab that I got, one thing called my attention, the sticks that came mounted looked very similar to JLW's but these were awful and made in China, although the restrictor gate while looking like straight clone of the JLW round gate, they seem to be made of nylon, my first thought was to try it on an actual JLW and this is what I got:

    http://s880.photobucket.com/user/chinitosoccer/media/100_1688_zps7vfdingl.jpg.html

    http://s880.photobucket.com/user/chinitosoccer/media/100_1690_zpsijqftriz.jpg.html

    I installed it over the original square restrictor gate, it doesn't change the actual "feel" of the stick but it adds to the robustness of the gate.

    I agree, there should be better materials than acrylic on the JLW, the gate is the weakest point of the design. ABS, Nylon, Derlin, metal, ect...
    I saw somewhere someone had an aluminum gate but I never found out where he got it.

    The guy who made an aluminum gate for JLW is the korean tester Kuenste, he even posted vids some time ago of his (circle restrictor) prototype.
    It's only a proto since the restrictor doesn't have any sort of coating that is usually necessary when you have dry sliding with aluminum.

    To reduce/prevent crack propagation in the shitty stock JLW restrictors:
    ...use flat round nylon washers that match the screws and the cavities in which the screws rest. It will distribute the pressure . ( ultimarc's "jstik" which really is a jlw in disguise, has such nylon washers see them here https://www.ultimarc.com/images/j-bot.jpg )

    I've been talking about alternate jlw gates for a while. even if the chinese jlw clones are junk with laughable pivots , their gates are sometimes worth the while (talking about the opaque bright colored ones which generally are nylon made) .
    --some do not have the same throw nor same engage as stock JLW restrictor though!--

    Nylon jlw clone restrictors :
    -The circle one Voldom bought has a diameter which matches the diagonal of the rounded square restrictor hole, so it's just a clone of the circle JLW restrictor (GT-O), just made of nylon.
    Go for it! The problem is the part isn't available as a seperate unit, you have to buy that crappy clone stick to salvage the nylon restrictor.

    -another example of nylon jlw restrictor on a chinese clone that has a body with similar screw locations. it illustrates the different throw and engage (different actuator also).
    http://s30.postimg.org/z9m0y3axt/JLW_clone_led_pcb_screw_top_by_BLEE_guangzho.jpg



    -ultimarc's "ultrastik 360" has or rather had (saw the kit on ebay , but official site shows transparent ocot...) an octogonal nylon restrictor ( http://www.ultimarc.com/images/U360_restrictors.jpg ) that is compatible with a genuine JLW. It's part of a 14USD restrictor kit that is officially compatible with JLW and derived clones. Note, only the octo seems made of a reddish nylon, the two others (round and square) are the usual JLW transparent items.

    -a white square nylon restrictor for JLW is also made for ultimarc for his "servostik".
    http://www.ultimarc.com/images/servostik_base.jpg
    It has a protruding part that connects with a motor, but that can be cut off easily. Alas the part is not for sale seperately , same for the U360 nylon octo restrictor that

    -shapeways (3d printing website) has a white nylon octo gate for JLW , it is for sale for around 10euros. I talked about it on this thread:
    http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/comment/9798705/#Comment_9798705

    Ultimarc's jlw looking models are not clones but rebranded models (some are modded thouigh) coming from sanwa and happ( or IL).

    Something worth noting:
    -Industrias Lorenzo's "Universal Joystick" has a black nylon restrictor and a lower body ( the part where the switches are installed) oddly similar to sanwa JLW.
    See tech sheet: http://www.industrias-lorenzo.com/en/index.php?controller=attachment&id_attachment=204
    I suspect the gate is compatible with a JLW, it is EXTREMELY close in design, even the rotational design is implemented (8 to 4 way design , when turning counterclockwise!) . Ultimarc calls his version "e-stik" ( http://www.ultimarc.com/images/s-bott.jpg ).
    It is really a nylon clone of the JLW square restrictor, but made of nylon. Worth checking out.

    From a historical point of view, it would be interesting to know who designed that "JLW" housing and restrictor design first: IL/Happ or Sanwa...?
  • DarksakulDarksakul Your lack of faith disturbs me Joined: Posts: 24,245
    edited October 2015
    Agieze wrote: »
    The guy who made an aluminum gate for JLW is the korean tester Kuenste, he even posted vids some time ago of his (circle restrictor) prototype.
    It's only a proto since the restrictor doesn't have any sort of coating that is usually necessary when you have dry sliding with aluminum.

    To reduce/prevent crack propagation in the shitty stock JLW restrictors:
    ...use flat round nylon washers that match the screws and the cavities in which the screws rest. It will distribute the pressure . ( ultimarc's "jstik" which really is a jlw in disguise, has such nylon washers see them here https://www.ultimarc.com/images/j-bot.jpg )

    [Snip the rest of the post for legnth]

    The JLW is Sanwa attempt to compete with-in the same market as Happ/IL parts. The JLW can mount in many of the same cabs the Happ/IL can with no or little modification.
    I don't know who came up with the gate first, but there ALOT of copy cats in the Arcade Parts business, sometimes different companies buy components all from the same sources or use standardize components rather than make everything in-house.

    Also thanks for the tip about the washers. By the way would you know what size nylon washers are those?
    “Strong people don't put others down... They lift them up.”
    - Darth Vader, Philanthropist
  • AgiezeAgieze Joined: Posts: 315
    edited October 2015
    @Darksakul

    It's been a while since I had a JLW at hand.
    Watch out for the washers on ultimarc's various JLW style gates, some gates are flat without depressions to house the screw heads, thus ultimarc relies for some models only on friction (it's ok if the gate is like the octo one from them, but not for the servostik gatewhich relies oinly on friction fastening to prevent slippage to random position between 8 and 4 way)

    Choosing nylon washers is a child's play. outer diam should match the diam of the circular depressions. Personally I'd go for anything betwwen 3/4 - 1.5mm thickness. Internal diameter should match the screw threading.

    Alternatively you could opt for machine screws in nylon/reinforced nylon which are cheap in price and will not need additional washers. Opt for the largest thickest head that could match the depressions on the gate, length&threading of course the same as stock screws. Peek, pss,acetal, carbon comp etc screws are more expensive and unnecessary here, but feel free to try .
    Nylon screws have properties that make them absorb impact and dampen the forces for those who "ride the gate" often, they are beyond comparison more forgiving to the material in the jlw gates than rigid and hard steel screws, and will dampen better than a simple nylon washer(a washer only distributes on the surface on which it is clamped, not in the hole in which the screw is fitted) . If nylon screws wear, they're cheap to replace anyways.

    This wouldn't be an issue at all if years ago sanwa chose the right grade of plastic for their jlw gates or alternatively used nylon screws or made gates out of nylon like seimitsu.
  • NENDONENDO I will meditate and then destroy you. Joined: Posts: 3,351
    edited October 2015
    The great thing about JLW for me is that it really needs not be modded. The JLW-01 mod is the only thing I ever do. That's one gate removal. After that it stays fastened. If you don't change it often you rarely have anything to worry about.
    Post edited by NENDO on
  • AgiezeAgieze Joined: Posts: 315
    edited October 2015
    NENDO wrote: »
    The great thing about JLW for me is that it really needs not be modded. The JLW-01 mod is the only thing I ever do. That's one gate removal. After that it stays fastened. If you don't change it often you rarely have anything to worry about.

    The OP probably used whatever he had at hand. Personally I'd stay away from mating nylon actuators with fiber washers. Arcade techs fiddled around for years with nylon and steel washers instead for spring tensioning or raising of various parts (some steel washers have a rough side though if they've been poorly stamped during fabrication, so watch out). Nylon washers are a better bet, don't go for too thin though and don't forget to lubricate !

    you're lucky if you didn't have a gate that cracked, a lot of people complain about it and even the OP complained about another issue, stock gates whose square was off center (probably due to fabrication issues -uneven heating of the mold, shrinking etc) . I've never personally had an off center gate but cracked ones were not uncommon , not to the extent of breaking loose though.



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