Wii U/3DS Matchup Discussion Thread: How many 7-3's can Little Mac still win!?

Colonel-GilgameshColonel-Gilgamesh He rains salty tearsJoined: Posts: 8,696
General stuff. Who beats who, note on the matchup. Etc.
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  • po pimpuspo pimpus Let's Hit the Climax! Joined: Posts: 24,416
    Mega Man vs. Lucario gets a rating of:

    FUCK LUCARIO
    "Capcom should listen to their fans... Mega Man is a cool character." -2048 President Elect Kevin at Age 10
  • Colonel-GilgameshColonel-Gilgamesh He rains salty tears Joined: Posts: 8,696
    po pimpus wrote: »
    Mega Man vs. Lucario gets a rating of:

    FUCK LUCARIO

    You sure that's not Po vs Lucario?
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  • po pimpuspo pimpus Let's Hit the Climax! Joined: Posts: 24,416
    po pimpus wrote: »
    Mega Man vs. Lucario gets a rating of:

    FUCK LUCARIO

    You sure that's not Po vs Lucario?

    You saw Neo get LUCARIO'D last night, when he was clearly outplaying the other dude... You tell me.
    "Capcom should listen to their fans... Mega Man is a cool character." -2048 President Elect Kevin at Age 10
  • Colonel-GilgameshColonel-Gilgamesh He rains salty tears Joined: Posts: 8,696
    po pimpus wrote: »
    po pimpus wrote: »
    Mega Man vs. Lucario gets a rating of:

    FUCK LUCARIO

    You sure that's not Po vs Lucario?

    You saw Neo get LUCARIO'D last night, when he was clearly outplaying the other dude... You tell me.

    Cept he wasn't MM so..........
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  • po pimpuspo pimpus Let's Hit the Climax! Joined: Posts: 24,416
    Isn't Sheik "better" than Mega Man? Piloted by a "top" player, I would expect Sheik to body Luke... Which is how it started.

    But then, X-FACTOR LEVEL 3 LUKE kicked in...
    "Capcom should listen to their fans... Mega Man is a cool character." -2048 President Elect Kevin at Age 10
  • LordWilliam1234LordWilliam1234 Too Many Waifus Joined: Posts: 20,888
    Lucario vs Mega Man I think is definitely in Lucario's favor, but how much I can't quite say.

    On Mega Man's side of things:

    - Can rack up damage quite well and block Lucario's approach.
    - Can deal with most of Lucario's toolset pretty well when Lucario doesn't have much damage accumulated, especially if you don't give the Lucario a chance to charge aura sphere; low charge aura sphere at low damage will
    - Can edgeguard Lucario fairly effectively when Lucario doesn't have much damage accumulated.

    Of course, then there's the huge problem in the match-up. Sure, Mega Man can rack up damage fine. But he can have a lot of trouble actually blastlining Lucario, and we all know that Lucario's recovery is downright stupid. And once Lucario's Aura starts to kick in, Mega Man's zoning game gets almost completely negated, since Aura Sphere at about 50-60%, even when low charged, completely rips through everything Mega Man can throw Lucario's way. And if the damage somehow gets even higher, force palm outranges all of MM's options. And once Lucario is able to negate Mega Man's range game he has a much easier time approaching or just setting up a kill of his own. And since Mega Man has a ton of lag on all of his primary kill moves, it makes it even easier for Lucario to set up one of his slower kill moves, or just giving Lucario more chances to get his own kill move in since MM often can't afford to take risks at that point.

    Overall I think this is a 6-4 Lucario's favor...maybe a 7-3? Hard to say really, since I still don't think my Lucario is that good.
    po pimpus wrote: »
    Isn't Sheik "better" than Mega Man? Piloted by a "top" player, I would expect Sheik to body Luke... Which is how it started.

    But then, X-FACTOR LEVEL 3 LUKE kicked in...

    Sheik loses that match-up in the same way that Mega Man does.

    She can't blastline Lucario.

    Any character that has trouble outright killing Lucario is going to have a problem in the match-up. That's why Diddy is a bad match-up for Lucario.
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  • Colonel-GilgameshColonel-Gilgamesh He rains salty tears Joined: Posts: 8,696
    Not to mention that Diddy's capacity to just go in on Lucario helps a lot. Characters who have to play the range game ultimately play into the dog's hands....paws?
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  • bloodymessbloodymess Joined: Posts: 1,913
    Jigglypuff beats Mac

    It's hilarious
  • Colonel-GilgameshColonel-Gilgamesh He rains salty tears Joined: Posts: 8,696
    I'm still not entirely sold on the Jiggs match. I need to play it more.
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  • KaboXxKaboXx FIGHTING CAT Joined: Posts: 3,943
    Link vs jr!! That boomarang lol seriously i have a hard time with zoners using jr. Samus and link give me such a hard time :(
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  • Colonel-GilgameshColonel-Gilgamesh He rains salty tears Joined: Posts: 8,696
    Jr has trouble against zoners cuz his approach sucks
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  • Mood4food77Mood4food77 Joined: Posts: 9,423
    greninja vs sonic might be the most boring match in existence
  • kAbkAb Joined: Posts: 740
    I'm not going to be able to toss out MU numbers just yet, but I know on villagers side of things that characters with strong projectiles or to a lesser extent reflectors will be in his favor.

    There is a list being compiled of the percentage needed to kill with a pocketed move, some of them are super low. Jr charged cannonball, megabuster, greninja charged shuriken. When they eat that first low percent death to a pocketed move, hesitation will set in and you might just take away the tool entirely.

    Reflectors are easy to bait and punish with rocket and may god have mercy on your soul if I pocket a reflected tree. Dat 0% death.
  • Colonel-GilgameshColonel-Gilgamesh He rains salty tears Joined: Posts: 8,696
    Villager is good against single strong projectiles. The kind Samus or Link puts out.

    He struggles more with constant weak ones.

    I suspect Fox to be a really bad matchup. Possibly his worst
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  • po pimpuspo pimpus Let's Hit the Climax! Joined: Posts: 24,416
    I just shoot Villager with lemons and keep shooting.

    Pocket those all you want.
    "Capcom should listen to their fans... Mega Man is a cool character." -2048 President Elect Kevin at Age 10
  • SonichumanSonichuman You're too sloooww!! Joined: Posts: 18,403
    po pimpus wrote: »
    I just shoot Villager with lemons and keep shooting.

    Pocket those all you want.

    Though knowing you, you'd end the match with a shield broken via Pocketed fully charged FSmash.

    Or he'd just steal Rush

    Have yet to test that out and see what happens if I take Rush yet....That would be so deliciously evil if he couldn't call rush once hes been pocketed.
  • Colonel-GilgameshColonel-Gilgamesh He rains salty tears Joined: Posts: 8,696
    I know from experience that Wario can't bike. According to that one video, he can Pocket Rush, but MM can still spawn Rush.

    The characters that cannot get their items back are

    Wario
    Jr
    Diddy
    ROB
    WFT
    Pac-Man
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  • LordWilliam1234LordWilliam1234 Too Many Waifus Joined: Posts: 20,888
    If you pocket Rush MM can still use it. When you pull out rush again you can jump on it for height and that's about it.

    Same thing happens if you pocket Sonic's spring (you can drop it off the ledge too to give it a hitbox).
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  • UnSaxon51UnSaxon51 HELL FIRE, DARK FIRE Joined: Posts: 3,926
    edited December 2014
    The characters that cannot get their items back are

    Pac-Man
    Does this steal his Fruit, his Pellet, his Trampoline, or some combination?

    I feel like Greninja vs Sonic is very even. If there's anything that skews one way or the other, it's that Greninja has a ranged option in Water Shuriken. However, Sonic's sheer speed somewhat negates this advantage.
    Also, unlike Mood, I find this matchup very entertaining rather than boring.
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    The real reason Ridley isn't in Smash

    "Haggar is Newton's Laws of Motion, the character." ~ ThatJollyOldBastid

    "Mac is knocking the fabulous right out of Marth!" ~ Saitsu
  • Colonel-GilgameshColonel-Gilgamesh He rains salty tears Joined: Posts: 8,696
    Fruit
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  • UnSaxon51UnSaxon51 HELL FIRE, DARK FIRE Joined: Posts: 3,926
    CG, what is your recommendation for fighting against D3? I played against one for over an hour last night and didn't win a single game. It was so frustrating that I couldn't win with Greninja, Mega Man, or Pac-Man that eventually I just started sand-bagging with characters I don't care about just to experiment.
    I was severely underestimating the incredibly low-recovery on most of his moves, even when I learned when to NOT punish. Some of this is because of online delay not letting me respond quick enough, but I was still in a rough spot the whole time. Any advice you can offer?
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    The real reason Ridley isn't in Smash

    "Haggar is Newton's Laws of Motion, the character." ~ ThatJollyOldBastid

    "Mac is knocking the fabulous right out of Marth!" ~ Saitsu
  • Colonel-GilgameshColonel-Gilgamesh He rains salty tears Joined: Posts: 8,696
    D3 insight eh?

    -FSmash recovers quicker than you'd think
    -D3's only safe when spaced well
    -Gordos take, like 2-3% to hit back.
    -He has trouble coming out of the air because of his slow lateral movement speed. Exploit landing traps

    THat's most of what I can offer right now. I suspect I'd have to see your fights to comment. Are you getting the Wii U version for XMas? We can practice that matchup later
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  • UnSaxon51UnSaxon51 HELL FIRE, DARK FIRE Joined: Posts: 3,926
    Yes, it's coming on Christmas, though I may not get to play until the following Monday because of family stuff.
    I feel like all his Smashes and tilts have surprisingly low recovery, especially considering how fast most of them come out.
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    The real reason Ridley isn't in Smash

    "Haggar is Newton's Laws of Motion, the character." ~ ThatJollyOldBastid

    "Mac is knocking the fabulous right out of Marth!" ~ Saitsu
  • po pimpuspo pimpus Let's Hit the Climax! Joined: Posts: 24,416
    I know it takes at least 3% or more to knock back Gordos, because MM can't pellet them back with single shots.

    D3's range and low cooldown on moves gives Mega Man a really hard time. Abuse Metal Blades and grabs in close and try to keep him directly above you with Up-Air and up thrown Metal Blades.

    Mega Man is going to want to be a little more aggressive in this match up. Try to toss up a Leaf Shield to keep yourself safe when moving in close and abuse the hell out of pellets, but beware his f-tilt.
    "Capcom should listen to their fans... Mega Man is a cool character." -2048 President Elect Kevin at Age 10
  • Sir_TubbsySir_Tubbsy Sympathies given: 0 Joined: Posts: 17
    If villager pockets pac mans fruit, pac man can still throw more fruit unless villager takes it out again
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    smash 4 main-pit
  • Mood4food77Mood4food77 Joined: Posts: 9,423
    i'm going to say confidently, sonic vs shulk is in shulk's favor

    shulk's speed and heavy forms make it a bitch for sonic. it also doesn't help that shulk has crazy good reach to keep sonic from approaching. it's not a significant advantage but I think it's like 6-4 for shulk
  • ZMangzZMangz (のヮの) Joined: Posts: 246
    anyone else play pit/dark pit here? it honestly feels like he has no match ups worse than 4-6. mostly yoshi (do his better zoning and aerials) and zss (mostly because of speed and i haven't fought any good zss players yet) seem to be both pit's worst matchups.
  • Raging_ZoroarkRaging_Zoroark Disgraceful! Joined: Posts: 1,380
    edited January 2015
    I just quoted this from general discussion:
    Davidstar wrote: »
    Who would be a good counter pick for sonic cause ness sonic match up is kinda crappy

    I love how I go to sleep after you say 'I only play one character' and I wake up to see this.

    Anyone that can slow Sonic down or keep up with Sonic is preferable. I've had some good experiences with Mac in the past, but that's also super risky. While I cannot confirm or deny who is and is not a counter, these are my recommendation in no order

    Villager
    Luigi
    Pikachu
    ZSS
    DHD
    MM

    Most of these guys have one thing in common. They control the ground using projectiles with little investment. Any good sonic is gonna bide his time when he approaches, but Sonic only has his amazing speed on the ground, and really only ventures into the air to combo. So shutting down ground options helps. I was thinking of including ROB, but his ass gets combo'd too easily.

    As a R.O.B player I must say that Sonic is a living nightmare to face. The robot is so easy to juggle that once Sonic hits you with a spin dash, you are pretty much dead. You must focus on not letting him approach at all cost. And since R.O.B isn't the fastest, it's very hard to punish the hedgehog unless the opponent does something very, very stupid. I need to do some more testing, but I think this matchup goes to Sonic.
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  • Colonel-GilgameshColonel-Gilgamesh He rains salty tears Joined: Posts: 8,696

    As a R.O.B player I must say that Sonic is a living nightmare to face. The robot is so easy to juggle that once Sonic hits you with a spin dash, you are pretty much dead. You must focus on not letting him approach at all cost. And since R.O.B isn't the fastest, it's very hard to punish the hedgehog unless the opponent does something very, very stupid. I need to do some more testing, but I think this matchup goes to Sonic.

    My original thought process was that Gyro slows everything down for Sonic, and he has some fast normals on the ground to wall him out, along with NAir. But as I see it, ROB just gets mauled too easily, like Dhalsim v Dudley
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  • Raging_ZoroarkRaging_Zoroark Disgraceful! Joined: Posts: 1,380
    Yes, pretty much Dudley vs Dhalsim. If you whiff laser/gyro things become much more complicated. Sonic just need to put R.O.B. in the air, where punishing approaches becomes much more hard to do.
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  • DavidstarDavidstar KILLA KUEEN! Joined: Posts: 5,034
    edited January 2015
    my thoughts on the ness vs sonic matchup

    yeah with the way my friend fights my ness with sonic is just way too annoying. pretty much be mid range, side b, down b, if they hit combo if not up b, down A, roll to safety since it instantly recovers from higher up, rinse repeat.

    pk thunder can get nullified by his spin dashes, pk fire can easily be hopped over with initial hop from side b or sonic just doesn't give a fuck because of it's short distance, all he has to do it keep it held out of pk fire distance, spring gimp on ness really high reward no risk.

    the fact that you can cancel into shield after run + his mobility + and fast recovery from everything makes his grab game super good.
    you can up throw someone, follow them on the ground, shield after run, if they attack shield grab if not just grab.

    at least with ness sonic going into either side b or down b automatically puts him at stage advantage.

    not to mention if sonic is in any unfavorable stage position he can just up b and go from neutral to advantage easily.
    Did you see that Zack? Clear as a crisp spring morning... FK....in the signature. I knew i could count on it. It never fails
  • phantasyphantasy Smash Journeyman Joined: Posts: 8,557
    sheik loses to lucario, even with diddy, slight adv vs sonic, rosalina, zss, advantage vs everyone else
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  • Colonel-GilgameshColonel-Gilgamesh He rains salty tears Joined: Posts: 8,696
    I bet Sheik loses to Luigi and Villager
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  • phantasyphantasy Smash Journeyman Joined: Posts: 8,557
    sheik beats luigi very badly, sheik might have some problems with villager but still slight advantage
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  • Colonel-GilgameshColonel-Gilgamesh He rains salty tears Joined: Posts: 8,696
    I dunno about that. Sheik vs Luigi is a momentum game. Luigi is the only persona who beats Sheik up close where she needs to be. Once luigi gets juggled, sure that's Sheik all day, but she loses the close range matchup and NAir can really poo on combo strings
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  • po pimpuspo pimpus Let's Hit the Climax! Joined: Posts: 24,416
    Sheik also has needles to slow Weegee's approach game and better ranged tilts. Needles... the one thing most Sheiks don't use enough of, and the one thing that ruins any hope Luigi has of getting in close. Smart Weegees can walk up shield them, but then you're walking into tilt/Bouncing Fish range.

    Needles also ruin any hope Luigi has of getting back on-stage.

    It may not be Melee Sheik, but she still has all that she needs to beat Luigi.

    NEEDLES.
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  • phantasyphantasy Smash Journeyman Joined: Posts: 8,557
    edited January 2015
    yeah luigi's approach game is his weak point (which is why i think mario is better overall)
    luigi's movement is floaty and his run speed is actually good but still outsped by sheik.

    sheik's main strength in the matchup is needles to rack up free damage from afar and essentially negate luigi's fireball game, as well as her superior movement to dictate the distance between them.

    if sheik starts a juggle on luigi, yes luigi nair is good as a fast get off me move that puts sheik above him. however, if it is baited, it is a free punish into the same situation. this is pretty much the case for the rest of his landing options as well, except maybe airdodge. tornado is pretty easy to punish if baited as well.

    luigi's main KO move, usmash, is pretty limited against sheik who falls fast enough to make it hard for luigi to get in a landing-trap position when considering DI. instead, luigi will often have to rely on very high percentage Bairs/Bthrows. while these are already somewhat difficult to land on a sheik who doesn't want to get hit, the high percentage she needs to be at makes it worse. I'm not too certain about luigi's edgeguard game, but it is a bit dangerous to do vs Sheik's high priority up b. at the same time, it may be his only real chance to take stocks at lower percents.

    yes sheik can get hit at close range and that's bad news (often a lot of damage racked up by luigi), but the struggle to KO her somewhat mitigates the threat of the damaging strings luigi can do. and of course, the neutral game domination by sheik is the biggest issue.

    sheik's ability to edgeguard luigi is extra bad news for luigi, as her weak KO power is somewhat mitigated by how much of an advantage she has when putting luigi off the stage. once luigi has exhausted his down b and double jump, he is in big trouble.
    while he can definitely tech any stagespike attempt vs when luigi side b's into the stage, it's still a lot of time for sheik to go for it (and you cannot walltech for a small period of time after pressing Shield, so it even becomes a small timing mixup)

    -
    right now i think it is 7-3 sheik over luigi. VERY bad.
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  • Colonel-GilgameshColonel-Gilgamesh He rains salty tears Joined: Posts: 8,696
    I dunno about the KO power bit, since Luigi can DThrow into NAir and kill at about 125%, while an Up B true combo kills at about 85%(Tested on FD). As I said, the match is momentum based. Sheik dominates the neutral and the edge guard game(and the game starts out in her favor because of it), but Luigi can make up a lot of damage very fast.

    I wouldn't use the whole 'you can bait it' thing in the argument because it's true for both sides. A Dthrow from Luigi into nothing to bait an air dodge or reaction, Up B Punish. Same goes for on ground Bouncing Fishes. Luigi can spot dodge them for like a free Shoryuken punish as early as 60%(FD again).

    As for edge guarding, I find Luigi's not TERRIBLE. He can easily hit you if you take a defensive action(Say, airdodging a chop but hitting him with a NAir), and Luigi's BAir has good KO action(killing from FD center at about 125%. For Reference sake, DK's BAir kills at 130% and DDD's at 110%), which makes it a potent edge guarding KO threat. Plus, chop has no KO power, but it pretty much denies anyone from returning. Luigi has some harsh air dominance thanks to his air moves having like no cooldown, but his floatiness and skittishness regarding recovery are what hurt.

    I'm just saying, Sheik can be annoying and rack up damage, but Luigi gets in once or Luigi makes a good read, Sheik is going for a trip. I know my argument seems to be focused on power, but it's the only one I really take issue with.
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  • phantasyphantasy Smash Journeyman Joined: Posts: 8,557
    you present some things i forgot about, namely the KO situations off throw, but i honestly think luigi grabbing sheik is something she can easily avoid. here's the main reason why: luigi has a problem where he slips away from the opponent if he shields something. most of the time, you can get around this by just perfect shielding or dash to spotdodge through projectiles. this is unfortunately not the case vs any charged needles as the multiple hits will still stop luigi from approaching if he perfect shields the first, and will likely hit him if he dodges a large enough set of needles.

    and then there's the whole thing of sheik's aerial attacks + short hop movement being good enough to already avoid shieldgrabbing which, when put on top of him moving backwards when normal shielding, makes sheik so safe in this matchup.

    most characters who can deal with sheik's needles do so by taking to the air. luigi's air movement is just not cut out for this plan.

    i think it's just really bad. i believe Boss is going to pick mario vs sheiks from now on, as i have seen a recent stream of Boss practicing his mario vs 2 sheiks (chu dat and another player i'm unfamiliar with)
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  • Colonel-GilgameshColonel-Gilgamesh He rains salty tears Joined: Posts: 8,696
    And I believe that Sheik's lack of killing power and Luigi's strong punish potential help him in this matchup more than you give him credit. Sheik can get tons of free damage, but eventually she will have to base Luigi in a zone he's comfortable with.
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  • Colonel-GilgameshColonel-Gilgamesh He rains salty tears Joined: Posts: 8,696
    How do you guys feel about Sheik vs Rosalina? Please quantify

    I think the match might be even. Rosa is one of the few characters needles are very ineffectual on, and her disjointed normals are much better than Sheiks. She can recover OK too, and can wall sheik out if done well.

    Of course, when Sheik DOES get in, Rosalina can't really do much to get her back out except throw
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  • phantasyphantasy Smash Journeyman Joined: Posts: 8,557
    i think it is even or slight sheik advantage. the problem is that i see sheik advantage only being if sheik attempts a time out, lol. needle and safe pokes etc. until luma is done, then some damage on rosalina. repeat. it would take insane patience to play the matchup that way though.

    a lot of sheiks would try to play aggro and sort of "ignore" luma, in the sense that they keep attacking luma away if she is in the way.
    this can work, but obviously it is more risky, and rosalina has good enough moves to do scary punishes on good reads.
    rosalina's neutral game is also good enough to beat sheik's aggressive neutral game.

    finally, rosalina has the edge in KO power. she may not be as fast, but luma and her hitboxes do allow her to get into advantageous positions to land KO moves.
    for sheik, luma makes it hard to go for Uair KOs after throws/ftilt/etc. also, Rosalina's up b can make it somewhat hard to edgeguard her.
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  • Colonel-GilgameshColonel-Gilgamesh He rains salty tears Joined: Posts: 8,696
    I'm on the lookout for Diddy counters(Not Sheik), since he seems to be such a problem. I don't have much though. Other than his insane up air, I don't really know why Diddy is so hard to deal with. The best I could come up with is Luigi for his boxing skills/punish game, Rosa for walling him out and throw combo breaking, and that's about it.
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  • Mood4food77Mood4food77 Joined: Posts: 9,423
    he's crazy fast, super safe on most attacks (even on block), great grab game that can lead to KO moves, bananas are still stupid, and his KO power got upped from brawl
  • Raging_ZoroarkRaging_Zoroark Disgraceful! Joined: Posts: 1,380
    Maybe Jiggs? Most of time he's on the air, so it's hard to be grabbed and can avoid bananas more easily. And it's also hard to juggle. Diddy's Uair is still a problem, but Jiggs Nair comes faster (I'm almost sure).
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  • po pimpuspo pimpus Let's Hit the Climax! Joined: Posts: 24,416
    Peach, nigga. Peach.
    "Capcom should listen to their fans... Mega Man is a cool character." -2048 President Elect Kevin at Age 10
  • Colonel-GilgameshColonel-Gilgamesh He rains salty tears Joined: Posts: 8,696
    po pimpus wrote: »
    Peach, nigga. Peach.

    Prove it
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  • po pimpuspo pimpus Let's Hit the Climax! Joined: Posts: 24,416
    edited January 2015
    po pimpus wrote: »
    Peach, nigga. Peach.

    Prove it

    I will. As soon as I learn how to use her...

    But the basic gist is that she can't be trolled by Diddy's ground game, and outside his up-air, she out-prioritizes him in the air.

    She can close distance with side-b and dash attack, and Toad can punish his multi-hitting attacks.

    She also has better kill power and is one of the few chars that can nail him off-stage for early percent kills.

    Turnips aren't great anymore, but they can help with space control, and she has a great glide-toss for turning bananas against him.

    Peach can do it.
    "Capcom should listen to their fans... Mega Man is a cool character." -2048 President Elect Kevin at Age 10
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