The Great Item Debate - 4th Edition

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  • LordWilliam1234LordWilliam1234 Permanent Character Crisis Joined: Posts: 21,824
    Assist Trophies are waaaaaaay more powerful than Pokeballs. Even the strongest of Pokemon have nothing on some of these assist trophies...
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  • Colonel-GilgameshColonel-Gilgamesh Akuma Matata Joined: Posts: 9,303
    edited March 2015
    Furthermore, Assist Trophies, unlike Pokeballs, have several options that completely resitrict gameplay or alter it in an unorthodox fashion where even moving is a bad idea. Nightmare, Nintendogs, Devil, Skull Kid and to a lesser degree Tingle. I remember each of these options showing up more often than the only Pokemon counterpart, Palkia, who is much rarer than the above five and only limited to one.
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  • po pimpuspo pimpus Let's Hit the Climax! Joined: Posts: 25,813
    I want my Elec Man assist, dammit...

    Apparently Togepi and Kyogre don't exist. Beehive is way too low, btw...
    "Capcom should listen to their fans... Mega Man is a cool character." -2048 President Elect Kevin at Age 10
  • LordWilliam1234LordWilliam1234 Permanent Character Crisis Joined: Posts: 21,824
    Togepi and Kyogre still aren't that great compared to most assist trophies.

    Beehive is fine where it is. It's annoying, nothing more.
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  • Colonel-GilgameshColonel-Gilgamesh Akuma Matata Joined: Posts: 9,303
    I'm surprised you didn't go straight for Darkrai, Po.
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  • GespenstRitterGespenstRitter The Enigmatic Gale Joined: Posts: 3,237
    Because CG asked me for my input.

    Boss Galaga NX5gKrV.gif Rank 3 -- While it can get a free Star KO, it isn't reliable at doing this until a decently' high percent, at which time you can just USmash with most people and kill them anyway. Plus, it's incredibly telegraphed and easy to avoid.

    Blast Box tlS5KPl.gif Rank 4 -- Not only can it be activated without consciously choosing to attack it, it also creates a fairly powerful explosion upon doing so.

    Food NX5gKrV.gif Rank 1 -- It's a healing item, but the amount healed is so negligible as to not make that large of a difference. Several characters have standard moves that heal more than food, and it's also technically a player-generated item as well (G&W's 7 Judgement).

    Hocotate Bomb/Drill Arm tlS5KPl.gif Rank 4 -- These two items have the potential to score a free KO off the top or side, respectively, as early as around 20-30%. The Drill Arm is also very easy to aim and hit with, while the Hocotate Bomb also is an inadvertent activation and large explosive item.

    Pokeball tlS5KPl.gif Rank 4 -- It can double as a Master Ball, spawning Legendary Pokemon with fairly startling regularity. Some of the normal Pokemon like Zoroark aren't slouches, either.

    Ray Gun/Steel Diver NX5gKrV.gif Rank 2 -- Neither of them are particularly powerful or fast projectiles (the Steel Diver, especially), and they also reduce the carrier's moveset to a rather predictable pattern.

    Smart Bomb tlS5KPl.gif Rank 4 -- The explosion covers a fairly wide area and cannot be blocked, at it can also be inadvertently activated.

    Smash Ball tlS5KPl.gif Rank 5 -- Used properly, these guarantee at least one kill, usually at low percents. Certain characters can get a second kill on top of that, or at least deal a good amount of damage for the next stock.

    Home Run Bat tlS5KPl.gif Rank 4 -- Only slightly behind the Ore Club in sheer power for battering weapons.

    Tanooki Leaf tlS5KPl.gif Rank 3 -- Everyone gets a Peach float, allowing even people like default Ganon to be able to recover from anywhere. It lasts longer than the Rocket Belt and provides excellent attacking options, to boot.
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  • po pimpuspo pimpus Let's Hit the Climax! Joined: Posts: 25,813
    ^LOL NO to almost all that shit nigga...

    Let the King school you:

    Boss Galaga Rank 2 If you get caught by this in a 1v1, you suck, period.

    Blast Box Rank 3 Unlike what the Smashboards faithful want you to believe, the Blast Box doesn't just wtfpwn you everytime it spawns... It's actually pretty durable against most attacks(including Smash attacks), only goes off after taking a huge hit or anything with fire properties, so Mario and Mega Man will want to be wary, as does a scrub Mac/Charizard running around spamming up-smash/Flare Blitz. Don't be a dumbass, and this thing will not kill you easily.

    Food Rank 1 Probably the only thing you've gotten right, next to the Poké Ball. Food will never be the difference maker in a match, unless you're the goof that lets your opponent have access to a Party Ball full of the stuff, and even then you should be able to make that difference up.

    Hocotate Bomb/Drill Arm Rank 3 In the words of Abridged Piccolo, "DODGE!" Seriously, you almost have to be trying to get hit by these... I could see them being used in edge-guarding shenanigans... But you if you're off stage with no way to dodge them, you failed somewhere.

    Poké Ball Rank 4 The only other thing you got right. If Assist Trophies are "TOO STRONK," then so is the ability to get Arceus to do your spiking for you.

    Ray Gun/Steel Diver Rank 2 Can you block/avoid projectiles from Mega Man? Then these shouldn't be an issue, seeing as they are slower than a thrown Leaf Shield and take up far less space.

    Smart Bomb Rank 3 The explosion IS huge, but the actual bomb itself is so tiny, and doesn't go off until it hits something/travels a certain distance. Sometimes it doesn't go off at all...

    Smash Ball Rank 4 I was going to go Rank 3, since most are hot, stinking ass, but then I remembered Marth/Lucina who can combo into an OHKO attack and Warioman... Good Lord, Warioman...

    Homerun Bat Rank 3 Lol I wish someone would stand still long enough to get bopped by the Smash attack version. The regular attacks deal decent damage, but so does Link's Master Sword attacks. Deadlier when thrown, since it actually connects.

    Super Leaf Rank 2 Yeah, you get a Peach float, that lasts half the duration... That can be punched out of you. Great for Mac and Dorf, a nightmare of stalling in the hands of Puff and Kirby, who no one uses.
    "Capcom should listen to their fans... Mega Man is a cool character." -2048 President Elect Kevin at Age 10
  • Colonel-GilgameshColonel-Gilgamesh Akuma Matata Joined: Posts: 9,303
    po pimpus wrote: »
    ^LOL NO to almost all that shit nigga...

    Let the King school you:

    Boss Galaga Rank 2 If you get caught by this in a 1v1, you suck, period.

    Blast Box Rank 3 Unlike what the Smashboards faithful want you to believe, the Blast Box doesn't just wtfpwn you everytime it spawns... It's actually pretty durable against most attacks(including Smash attacks), only goes off after taking a huge hit or anything with fire properties, so Mario and Mega Man will want to be wary, as does a scrub Mac/Charizard running around spamming up-smash/Flare Blitz. Don't be a dumbass, and this thing will not kill you easily.

    Food Rank 1 Probably the only thing you've gotten right, next to the Poké Ball. Food will never be the difference maker in a match, unless you're the goof that lets your opponent have access to a Party Ball full of the stuff, and even then you should be able to make that difference up.

    Hocotate Bomb/Drill Arm Rank 3 In the words of Abridged Piccolo, "DODGE!" Seriously, you almost have to be trying to get hit by these... I could see them being used in edge-guarding shenanigans... But you if you're off stage with no way to dodge them, you failed somewhere.

    Poké Ball Rank 4 The only other thing you got right. If Assist Trophies are "TOO STRONK," then so is the ability to get Arceus to do your spiking for you.

    Ray Gun/Steel Diver Rank 2 Can you block/avoid projectiles from Mega Man? Then these shouldn't be an issue, seeing as they are slower than a thrown Leaf Shield and take up far less space.

    Smart Bomb Rank 3 The explosion IS huge, but the actual bomb itself is so tiny, and doesn't go off until it hits something/travels a certain distance. Sometimes it doesn't go off at all...

    Smash Ball Rank 4 I was going to go Rank 3, since most are hot, stinking ass, but then I remembered Marth/Lucina who can combo into an OHKO attack and Warioman... Good Lord, Warioman...

    Homerun Bat Rank 3 Lol I wish someone would stand still long enough to get bopped by the Smash attack version. The regular attacks deal decent damage, but so does Link's Master Sword attacks. Deadlier when thrown, since it actually connects.

    Super Leaf Rank 2 Yeah, you get a Peach float, that lasts half the duration... That can be punched out of you. Great for Mac and Dorf, a nightmare of stalling in the hands of Puff and Kirby, who no one uses.

    I just want to say that Food is ridiculously useful for Wario. He heals for like 15% when he Chomps something. I remember leaving Food on once or twice in a few matches after I was labbing with Wario Waft. Since no one care about food, no one makes it a point to defend that shit. What happened in the end was Wario would just hover at around 40-60% the entire game.

    Also, love the PTSD Po has with the SUPER WAH
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  • CyntalanCyntalan Joined: Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Yeah, I don't see the issue with Smash Balls. Giving Marth and Lucina a moment in time of not sucking seems like a plus to me.

    I can almost agree with the R1 for food, but you know the Smogonboards people would be UP IN ARMS over it.
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  • Mood4food77Mood4food77 Joined: Posts: 9,671
    BAN ALL THE ITEMS!!! THEY ARE DETRIMAL TO DEVELOPING METAGAME!!
  • po pimpuspo pimpus Let's Hit the Climax! Joined: Posts: 25,813
    edited March 2015
    BAN ALL THE DIDDY KONG PLAYERS!!! THEY ARE DETRIMENTAL TO THE DEVELOPING METAGAME!!

    Fixed that for you.
    "Capcom should listen to their fans... Mega Man is a cool character." -2048 President Elect Kevin at Age 10
  • CyntalanCyntalan Joined: Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Just a bump to mention that I still plan a "How To Item" series in the future, but I honestly don't want to rely on another user to record all my raw replays, send it back to me, then do my editing, and it would be rather dumb of me to perform the actions needed to make the replays in preparation for myself, only for Nintendo to patch Smash again and make 'em all useless. I'll begin as soon as I can procure my capture card, though I have been experimenting.
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  • Smashbro29Smashbro29 Waiting for the new Framemeister... Joined: Posts: 7,199
    Cyntalan wrote: »
    Just a bump to mention that I still plan a "How To Item" series in the future, but I honestly don't want to rely on another user to record all my raw replays, send it back to me, then do my editing, and it would be rather dumb of me to perform the actions needed to make the replays in preparation for myself, only for Nintendo to patch Smash again and make 'em all useless. I'll begin as soon as I can procure my capture card, though I have been experimenting.

    Good luck, shit I'll even offer my services as a narrator.
  • DavidstarDavidstar KILLA KUEEN! Joined: Posts: 5,063
    That is going to be a bigger waste of time than trying to get Willie Nelson to quit marijuana
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  • po pimpuspo pimpus Let's Hit the Climax! Joined: Posts: 25,813
    Davidstar wrote: »
    That is going to be a bigger waste of time than trying to get Willie Nelson to quit marijuana

    Not to people that actually like using items...

    ..all five of them on SRK... :coffee:
    "Capcom should listen to their fans... Mega Man is a cool character." -2048 President Elect Kevin at Age 10
  • CyntalanCyntalan Joined: Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Davidstar wrote: »
    That is going to be a bigger waste of time than trying to get Willie Nelson to quit marijuana

    Qt3XZZa.gif
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    "NO! NOT LIKE THIS!" - Random audience member, Evo 2k9 SC4 finals. Go Hilde!
    "You are a weird, adorable little man, OZ." - Vynce
    "I violated marc but we definitely cool now." - dre37k
  • DavidstarDavidstar KILLA KUEEN! Joined: Posts: 5,063
    po pimpus wrote: »
    Davidstar wrote: »
    That is going to be a bigger waste of time than trying to get Willie Nelson to quit marijuana

    Not to people that actually like using items...

    ..all five of them in the world ... :coffee:

    Fixed
    Did you see that Zack? Clear as a crisp spring morning... FK....in the signature. I knew i could count on it. It never fails
  • LordWilliam1234LordWilliam1234 Permanent Character Crisis Joined: Posts: 21,824
    Davidstar wrote: »
    Fixed

    Still doesn't mean they should be ignored.
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  • Mood4food77Mood4food77 Joined: Posts: 9,671
    Gusting bellows or i riot
  • CyntalanCyntalan Joined: Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Gusting bellows or i riot

    If I do Gust Bellows, it's gonna be tongue-in-cheek the whole way. That thing is straight up broken and has no business in any real match.
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  • Colonel-GilgameshColonel-Gilgamesh Akuma Matata Joined: Posts: 9,303
    It's funny to me you think that comment deserved a serious reply
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  • CyntalanCyntalan Joined: Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    It's funny to me you think that comment deserved a serious reply

    To be fair, I never stated what items I would be doing in my series. I should probably make it clear that I won't be bothering with any rank 5 items (though I like the idea of levity with the Gust Bellows now that I think about it...), and most likely no rank 4 items with the exception of maybe Assist Trophies (more to break down its random facet and some of its properties more than its viability). I think the series will cover a group of similar items when possible, noting their differences but otherwise explaining their similarities in their use, but the more nuanced items may get more dedicated videos.
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    "You are a weird, adorable little man, OZ." - Vynce
    "I violated marc but we definitely cool now." - dre37k
  • Mood4food77Mood4food77 Joined: Posts: 9,671
    So today in mood's weekly, what have you learned issue; we'll talk about items.

    So mood, what do you think of items during this league?

    They're still stupid and only make things worse
  • po pimpuspo pimpus Let's Hit the Climax! Joined: Posts: 25,813
    You just need some charts and graphs to understand them better :coffee:
    "Capcom should listen to their fans... Mega Man is a cool character." -2048 President Elect Kevin at Age 10
  • Mood4food77Mood4food77 Joined: Posts: 9,671
    At this point i probably do
  • DavidstarDavidstar KILLA KUEEN! Joined: Posts: 5,063
    po pimpus wrote: »
    You just need some patience and spacing to understand them better :coffee:

    fixed
    Did you see that Zack? Clear as a crisp spring morning... FK....in the signature. I knew i could count on it. It never fails
  • CyntalanCyntalan Joined: Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Awful lot of bitching about items goin' on here for a thread that stated in the post that this is not the place for bitching about items.
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    "I violated marc but we definitely cool now." - dre37k
  • Mood4food77Mood4food77 Joined: Posts: 9,671
    Needs proof on why items are okay

    Still doesnt have proof
  • LordWilliam1234LordWilliam1234 Permanent Character Crisis Joined: Posts: 21,824
    Dunno why you guys haven't put dumbass Mood on ignore yet.
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  • CyntalanCyntalan Joined: Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Dunno why you guys haven't put dumbass Mood on ignore yet.

    Man you ain't gonna be happy with the IRC then...
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  • Mood4food77Mood4food77 Joined: Posts: 9,671
    Dunno why you guys haven't put dumbass Mood on ignore yet.

    Then fucking put me on ignore, ive brought up some things to help with bayo among other info.
  • KaboXxKaboXx FIGHTING CAT Joined: Posts: 3,960
    Items are the second coming!! I love them! Wish we were playing rank 5 though!
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  • Smashbro29Smashbro29 Waiting for the new Framemeister... Joined: Posts: 7,199
    My issue with items is still that they're random. yes you can get an estimate on when and where (Haven't seen any proof of this yet but whatever) but what will the item be? Playstation All-Stars has items on because every stage has set item locations and spawn times. The items will spawn the same way every match. Smash Bros doesn't have that.

    Who's to say which items are good and which are bad? Who's to say which frequency to set it at? You ranked them and that's cute and all but I disagree with the ranks, why is your opinion more valid?
  • CyntalanCyntalan Joined: Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Before I go any further on this, please keep in mind:
    Cyntalan wrote: »
    THIS IS NOT A THREAD TO BITCH ABOUT ITEMS. Take that shit elsewhere. This is not the place to discuss the validity of items. The idea within this thread is to discuss which items belong in a given rank and why. This list is what I would like to maintain and update as we discuss. Keep the discussion with the consideration that with this, most stages that would otherwise be considered unplayable may indeed still be viable.

    You are really crossing that line and it's nothing short of aggravating. Please stick to the above.

    That being said, that is the ENTIRE point of this thread. To hear feedback and other thoughts on the matter to debate what it should be and why. It may be your opinion that everything but the smoke ball should be in rank 5, but please articulate why it should be that way and we can TRY to have a civil conversation about it.
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  • Smashbro29Smashbro29 Waiting for the new Framemeister... Joined: Posts: 7,199
    edited April 2016
    Well any battering item is already pretty up there. You get a projectile as a character that doesn't normally have one. You buff the speedier characters by giving them a fast kill move where they usually have none and said kill move can hit an insane range and said speedy characters can get to them first as well.

    Anything that spawns some invincible/offscreen entity is just straight up ridiculous. Andross gives you stage control for about 15 seconds, why? Because you were Sonic and got there first? Bogus.
  • CyntalanCyntalan Joined: Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    a) any battering item puts you at a disadvantage of losing your ground based attacks in favor of the battering swings. With the change from how chucked items went from Brawl to 4, they're all both catchable and reflectable where they were not before (good god Star Rod, what did Sakurai do to you?!?). Speedier characters will get to items more frequently provided they have the stage control already in place, and utilizing them as a projectile is a risk in and of itself due to catching.

    b) you don't look like you actually read the list and their intents by this part - what you describe as ridiculous are almost entirely in the more ludicrous ranks. The rest can be argued about, and none of them show up in the lower ranks.

    Speed <> item obtainment. It helps sometimes, but if you're focusing on grabbing that next item, you're not as focused on your opponent. That's kind of the point behind item play. That added level of adaptability. But this is beside the point. We're not arguing about items in general. Please stop bringing it back to that. Keep your thoughts in the place of "items are in" before more arguments come out.
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  • KaboXxKaboXx FIGHTING CAT Joined: Posts: 3,960
    Master ball should be rank 3
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  • CyntalanCyntalan Joined: Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    KaboXx wrote: »
    Master ball should be rank 3

    No, kaboxx. Just no.

    Also, if you're gonna be remotely serious about this and no just troll, explain your reasoning.
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    "NO! NOT LIKE THIS!" - Random audience member, Evo 2k9 SC4 finals. Go Hilde!
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    "I violated marc but we definitely cool now." - dre37k
  • Mood4food77Mood4food77 Joined: Posts: 9,671
    edited April 2016
    https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/XcQz5MJf/

    Can someone besides cynt provide an answer because he cant

    Cynt, he wasnt bitching, he's just providing his view that you dont like. Not everything someone says that is negative is bitching
  • CyntalanCyntalan Joined: Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    edited April 2016
    Mood - seriously. Please stop bringing the validity of items discussion in here. It has ZERO place here.
    Cynt, he wasnt bitching, he's just providing his view that you dont like. Not everything someone says that is negative is bitching

    I never said he was. Just that he was trying to push the discussion towards the validity when that is not the point of this thread. The thread has already established that it is with the implication that "yes, items are in", so discussing the validity is counterproductive and derailing the thread. Please. Stop.
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