The Great Item Debate - 4th Edition

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  • po pimpuspo pimpus Let's Hit the Climax! Joined: Posts: 22,069
    edited March 2015
    BAN ALL THE DIDDY KONG PLAYERS!!! THEY ARE DETRIMENTAL TO THE DEVELOPING METAGAME!!

    Fixed that for you.
    "Capcom should listen to their fans... Mega Man is a cool character." -2048 President Elect Kevin at Age 10
  • CyntalanCyntalan Av comes from my child's math homework - no joke Joined: Posts: 7,917 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Just a bump to mention that I still plan a "How To Item" series in the future, but I honestly don't want to rely on another user to record all my raw replays, send it back to me, then do my editing, and it would be rather dumb of me to perform the actions needed to make the replays in preparation for myself, only for Nintendo to patch Smash again and make 'em all useless. I'll begin as soon as I can procure my capture card, though I have been experimenting.
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  • Smashbro29Smashbro29 Waiting for the new Framemeister... Joined: Posts: 7,164
    Cyntalan wrote: »
    Just a bump to mention that I still plan a "How To Item" series in the future, but I honestly don't want to rely on another user to record all my raw replays, send it back to me, then do my editing, and it would be rather dumb of me to perform the actions needed to make the replays in preparation for myself, only for Nintendo to patch Smash again and make 'em all useless. I'll begin as soon as I can procure my capture card, though I have been experimenting.

    Good luck, shit I'll even offer my services as a narrator.
  • DavidstarDavidstar KILLA KUEEN! Joined: Posts: 4,893
    That is going to be a bigger waste of time than trying to get Willie Nelson to quit marijuana
    Did you see that Zack? Clear as a crisp spring morning... FK....in the signature. I knew i could count on it. It never fails
  • po pimpuspo pimpus Let's Hit the Climax! Joined: Posts: 22,069
    Davidstar wrote: »
    That is going to be a bigger waste of time than trying to get Willie Nelson to quit marijuana

    Not to people that actually like using items...

    ..all five of them on SRK... :coffee:
    "Capcom should listen to their fans... Mega Man is a cool character." -2048 President Elect Kevin at Age 10
  • CyntalanCyntalan Av comes from my child's math homework - no joke Joined: Posts: 7,917 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Davidstar wrote: »
    That is going to be a bigger waste of time than trying to get Willie Nelson to quit marijuana

    Qt3XZZa.gif
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    "NO! NOT LIKE THIS!" - Random audience member, Evo 2k9 SC4 finals. Go Hilde!
    "You are a weird, adorable little man, OZ." - Vynce
    "I violated marc but we definitely cool now." - dre37k
  • DavidstarDavidstar KILLA KUEEN! Joined: Posts: 4,893
    po pimpus wrote: »
    Davidstar wrote: »
    That is going to be a bigger waste of time than trying to get Willie Nelson to quit marijuana

    Not to people that actually like using items...

    ..all five of them in the world ... :coffee:

    Fixed
    Did you see that Zack? Clear as a crisp spring morning... FK....in the signature. I knew i could count on it. It never fails
  • LordWilliam1234LordWilliam1234 Frame Data Wizard Joined: Posts: 19,403
    Davidstar wrote: »
    Fixed

    Still doesn't mean they should be ignored.
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  • Mood4food77Mood4food77 Joined: Posts: 9,085
    Gusting bellows or i riot
  • CyntalanCyntalan Av comes from my child's math homework - no joke Joined: Posts: 7,917 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Gusting bellows or i riot

    If I do Gust Bellows, it's gonna be tongue-in-cheek the whole way. That thing is straight up broken and has no business in any real match.
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    "You are a weird, adorable little man, OZ." - Vynce
    "I violated marc but we definitely cool now." - dre37k
  • Colonel-GilgameshColonel-Gilgamesh WHHHoooOooO waaAAAAAantsSssS tO SmAAsssSssHHHH.... WAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaarrglrgl Joined: Posts: 8,173
    It's funny to me you think that comment deserved a serious reply
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  • CyntalanCyntalan Av comes from my child's math homework - no joke Joined: Posts: 7,917 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    It's funny to me you think that comment deserved a serious reply

    To be fair, I never stated what items I would be doing in my series. I should probably make it clear that I won't be bothering with any rank 5 items (though I like the idea of levity with the Gust Bellows now that I think about it...), and most likely no rank 4 items with the exception of maybe Assist Trophies (more to break down its random facet and some of its properties more than its viability). I think the series will cover a group of similar items when possible, noting their differences but otherwise explaining their similarities in their use, but the more nuanced items may get more dedicated videos.
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    "NO! NOT LIKE THIS!" - Random audience member, Evo 2k9 SC4 finals. Go Hilde!
    "You are a weird, adorable little man, OZ." - Vynce
    "I violated marc but we definitely cool now." - dre37k
  • Mood4food77Mood4food77 Joined: Posts: 9,085
    So today in mood's weekly, what have you learned issue; we'll talk about items.

    So mood, what do you think of items during this league?

    They're still stupid and only make things worse
  • po pimpuspo pimpus Let's Hit the Climax! Joined: Posts: 22,069
    You just need some charts and graphs to understand them better :coffee:
    "Capcom should listen to their fans... Mega Man is a cool character." -2048 President Elect Kevin at Age 10
  • Mood4food77Mood4food77 Joined: Posts: 9,085
    At this point i probably do
  • DavidstarDavidstar KILLA KUEEN! Joined: Posts: 4,893
    po pimpus wrote: »
    You just need some patience and spacing to understand them better :coffee:

    fixed
    Did you see that Zack? Clear as a crisp spring morning... FK....in the signature. I knew i could count on it. It never fails
  • CyntalanCyntalan Av comes from my child's math homework - no joke Joined: Posts: 7,917 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Awful lot of bitching about items goin' on here for a thread that stated in the post that this is not the place for bitching about items.
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    "I violated marc but we definitely cool now." - dre37k
  • Mood4food77Mood4food77 Joined: Posts: 9,085
    Needs proof on why items are okay

    Still doesnt have proof
  • LordWilliam1234LordWilliam1234 Frame Data Wizard Joined: Posts: 19,403
    Dunno why you guys haven't put dumbass Mood on ignore yet.
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  • CyntalanCyntalan Av comes from my child's math homework - no joke Joined: Posts: 7,917 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Dunno why you guys haven't put dumbass Mood on ignore yet.

    Man you ain't gonna be happy with the IRC then...
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    "NO! NOT LIKE THIS!" - Random audience member, Evo 2k9 SC4 finals. Go Hilde!
    "You are a weird, adorable little man, OZ." - Vynce
    "I violated marc but we definitely cool now." - dre37k
  • Mood4food77Mood4food77 Joined: Posts: 9,085
    Dunno why you guys haven't put dumbass Mood on ignore yet.

    Then fucking put me on ignore, ive brought up some things to help with bayo among other info.
  • KaboXxKaboXx FIGHTING CAT Joined: Posts: 3,918
    Items are the second coming!! I love them! Wish we were playing rank 5 though!
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  • Smashbro29Smashbro29 Waiting for the new Framemeister... Joined: Posts: 7,164
    My issue with items is still that they're random. yes you can get an estimate on when and where (Haven't seen any proof of this yet but whatever) but what will the item be? Playstation All-Stars has items on because every stage has set item locations and spawn times. The items will spawn the same way every match. Smash Bros doesn't have that.

    Who's to say which items are good and which are bad? Who's to say which frequency to set it at? You ranked them and that's cute and all but I disagree with the ranks, why is your opinion more valid?
  • CyntalanCyntalan Av comes from my child's math homework - no joke Joined: Posts: 7,917 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Before I go any further on this, please keep in mind:
    Cyntalan wrote: »
    THIS IS NOT A THREAD TO BITCH ABOUT ITEMS. Take that shit elsewhere. This is not the place to discuss the validity of items. The idea within this thread is to discuss which items belong in a given rank and why. This list is what I would like to maintain and update as we discuss. Keep the discussion with the consideration that with this, most stages that would otherwise be considered unplayable may indeed still be viable.

    You are really crossing that line and it's nothing short of aggravating. Please stick to the above.

    That being said, that is the ENTIRE point of this thread. To hear feedback and other thoughts on the matter to debate what it should be and why. It may be your opinion that everything but the smoke ball should be in rank 5, but please articulate why it should be that way and we can TRY to have a civil conversation about it.
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    "NO! NOT LIKE THIS!" - Random audience member, Evo 2k9 SC4 finals. Go Hilde!
    "You are a weird, adorable little man, OZ." - Vynce
    "I violated marc but we definitely cool now." - dre37k
  • Smashbro29Smashbro29 Waiting for the new Framemeister... Joined: Posts: 7,164
    edited April 2016
    Well any battering item is already pretty up there. You get a projectile as a character that doesn't normally have one. You buff the speedier characters by giving them a fast kill move where they usually have none and said kill move can hit an insane range and said speedy characters can get to them first as well.

    Anything that spawns some invincible/offscreen entity is just straight up ridiculous. Andross gives you stage control for about 15 seconds, why? Because you were Sonic and got there first? Bogus.
  • CyntalanCyntalan Av comes from my child's math homework - no joke Joined: Posts: 7,917 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    a) any battering item puts you at a disadvantage of losing your ground based attacks in favor of the battering swings. With the change from how chucked items went from Brawl to 4, they're all both catchable and reflectable where they were not before (good god Star Rod, what did Sakurai do to you?!?). Speedier characters will get to items more frequently provided they have the stage control already in place, and utilizing them as a projectile is a risk in and of itself due to catching.

    b) you don't look like you actually read the list and their intents by this part - what you describe as ridiculous are almost entirely in the more ludicrous ranks. The rest can be argued about, and none of them show up in the lower ranks.

    Speed <> item obtainment. It helps sometimes, but if you're focusing on grabbing that next item, you're not as focused on your opponent. That's kind of the point behind item play. That added level of adaptability. But this is beside the point. We're not arguing about items in general. Please stop bringing it back to that. Keep your thoughts in the place of "items are in" before more arguments come out.
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    "I violated marc but we definitely cool now." - dre37k
  • KaboXxKaboXx FIGHTING CAT Joined: Posts: 3,918
    Master ball should be rank 3
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  • CyntalanCyntalan Av comes from my child's math homework - no joke Joined: Posts: 7,917 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    KaboXx wrote: »
    Master ball should be rank 3

    No, kaboxx. Just no.

    Also, if you're gonna be remotely serious about this and no just troll, explain your reasoning.
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    "NO! NOT LIKE THIS!" - Random audience member, Evo 2k9 SC4 finals. Go Hilde!
    "You are a weird, adorable little man, OZ." - Vynce
    "I violated marc but we definitely cool now." - dre37k
  • Mood4food77Mood4food77 Joined: Posts: 9,085
    edited April 2016
    https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/XcQz5MJf/

    Can someone besides cynt provide an answer because he cant

    Cynt, he wasnt bitching, he's just providing his view that you dont like. Not everything someone says that is negative is bitching
  • CyntalanCyntalan Av comes from my child's math homework - no joke Joined: Posts: 7,917 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    edited April 2016
    Mood - seriously. Please stop bringing the validity of items discussion in here. It has ZERO place here.
    Cynt, he wasnt bitching, he's just providing his view that you dont like. Not everything someone says that is negative is bitching

    I never said he was. Just that he was trying to push the discussion towards the validity when that is not the point of this thread. The thread has already established that it is with the implication that "yes, items are in", so discussing the validity is counterproductive and derailing the thread. Please. Stop.
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    "NO! NOT LIKE THIS!" - Random audience member, Evo 2k9 SC4 finals. Go Hilde!
    "You are a weird, adorable little man, OZ." - Vynce
    "I violated marc but we definitely cool now." - dre37k
  • Mood4food77Mood4food77 Joined: Posts: 9,085
    This is the items thread. How does it not have a place in the items thread?
  • po pimpuspo pimpus Let's Hit the Climax! Joined: Posts: 22,069
    So Bayonetta isn't the only thing Smash players refuse to learn how to deal with, huh?
    "Capcom should listen to their fans... Mega Man is a cool character." -2048 President Elect Kevin at Age 10
  • CyntalanCyntalan Av comes from my child's math homework - no joke Joined: Posts: 7,917 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Cyntalan wrote: »
    THIS IS NOT A THREAD TO BITCH ABOUT ITEMS. Take that shit elsewhere. This is not the place to discuss the validity of items. The idea within this thread is to discuss which items belong in a given rank and why. This list is what I would like to maintain and update as we discuss. Keep the discussion with the consideration that with this, most stages that would otherwise be considered unplayable may indeed still be viable.
    Cyntalan wrote: »
    This is not the place to discuss the validity of items.
    Cyntalan wrote: »
    This is not the place to discuss the validity of items.
    Cyntalan wrote: »
    This is not the place to discuss the validity of items.
    Cyntalan wrote: »
    This is not the place to discuss the validity of items.

    I cannot stress this enough.
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    "NO! NOT LIKE THIS!" - Random audience member, Evo 2k9 SC4 finals. Go Hilde!
    "You are a weird, adorable little man, OZ." - Vynce
    "I violated marc but we definitely cool now." - dre37k
  • Mood4food77Mood4food77 Joined: Posts: 9,085
    Please read it again and understand what i am asking.

    I want a legitimate answer thats more than adapting because that gets no where. Cynt has provided it. I dont think anyone else can. So im going to wait until an answer does
  • po pimpuspo pimpus Let's Hit the Climax! Joined: Posts: 22,069
    There are like 1,000,000,0000 x infinity places to talk about why you hate items.

    I thought this was the one place where people could actually discuss item use/spawning/strategy without the usual bullshit.
    "Capcom should listen to their fans... Mega Man is a cool character." -2048 President Elect Kevin at Age 10
  • CyntalanCyntalan Av comes from my child's math homework - no joke Joined: Posts: 7,917 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    edited April 2016
    You're asking for something that is about your own validation towards why items are "dumb" and "have no place". That is EXACTLY what I said to keep out of this thread. Please. Drop it. Stop derailing the thread. Take it to the main thread. Hell, go make your own for all I fuckin' care. Just keep it out of here, where it's meant to be a discussion about items in play, not whether they BELONG in play.
    po pimpus wrote: »
    I thought this was the one place where people could actually discuss item use/spawning/strategy without the usual bullshit.

    This a thousand times over.
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    "NO! NOT LIKE THIS!" - Random audience member, Evo 2k9 SC4 finals. Go Hilde!
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    "I violated marc but we definitely cool now." - dre37k
  • Mood4food77Mood4food77 Joined: Posts: 9,085
    Still avoiding the question. You are not providing an answer to what i asked in the paste bin. So ill just put it here with the scenario:

    In my tournament match against manie there was a specific scenario. He was bayo, i was cloud. He's at 120%, i was at 100%, i did not have my limit charge. He whiffed an fsmash pretty close to me. Why should i have not gone for the fsmash KO?

    In the actual match, we both exploded and died. But ignore this part and just answer the question. Dont avoid it. Answer it as specifically as possible.

    I hate items in the competitive way, if it's just for fun, fuck it let them rock (besides gusting bellows)
  • CyntalanCyntalan Av comes from my child's math homework - no joke Joined: Posts: 7,917 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    edited April 2016
    Still avoiding the question. You are not providing an answer to what i asked in the paste bin. So ill just put it here with the scenario:

    In my tournament match against manie there was a specific scenario. He was bayo, i was cloud. He's at 120%, i was at 100%, i did not have my limit charge. He whiffed an fsmash pretty close to me. Why should i have not gone for the fsmash KO?

    In the actual match, we both exploded and died. But ignore this part and just answer the question. Dont avoid it. Answer it as specifically as possible.

    I hate items in the competitive way, if it's just for fun, fuck it let them rock (besides gusting bellows)

    I'll be glad to answer. Hell, I'd be happy for anyone else to answer in favor or against.

    JUST

    NOT

    HERE
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    "NO! NOT LIKE THIS!" - Random audience member, Evo 2k9 SC4 finals. Go Hilde!
    "You are a weird, adorable little man, OZ." - Vynce
    "I violated marc but we definitely cool now." - dre37k
  • Mood4food77Mood4food77 Joined: Posts: 9,085
    It's the item thread, we should keep it in the item thread.

    Also, as proven by that pastebin, you cant answer it. Which is why I'm asking for others.
  • CyntalanCyntalan Av comes from my child's math homework - no joke Joined: Posts: 7,917 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    No.

    This is NOT the "item validity" thread. Read the fucking OP. You come in here and post, you do so knowing that "items are here". By coming in here and trying to argue the justification of items, you are sullying and derailing this thread.

    giphy.gif
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    "NO! NOT LIKE THIS!" - Random audience member, Evo 2k9 SC4 finals. Go Hilde!
    "You are a weird, adorable little man, OZ." - Vynce
    "I violated marc but we definitely cool now." - dre37k
  • Mood4food77Mood4food77 Joined: Posts: 9,085
    I moved it to the main thread, happy?
  • LordWilliam1234LordWilliam1234 Frame Data Wizard Joined: Posts: 19,403
    Mood's whole issue is with an explosive randomly dropping. As I recall, when items were a format before explosives were generally turned off (and the League match was rank 4, when tournies would probably run rank 2 or 3). Main reason they vanished entirely was because explosive crates couldn't be turned off. Now they can be turned off along with other explosives. Which erases the scenario Mood is whining about.

    Items are fine as their own format, really the issue is which items to have in this kind of setting, which the OP already has different levels to have (rank 4 and 5 being the equivalent of "Uber," rank 3 "OU," so on and so forth). As Cyntalan has stated, the discussion shouldn't be whether or not items should be a format, but rather which items should be ranked accordingly for a competitive setting.

    (I'd contribute more to said discussion but honestly I don't really have anything to say for or against the current ranking of each item in the OP)
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  • Mood4food77Mood4food77 Joined: Posts: 9,085
    We have a winner

    The only reason i should not have gone for the punish is because explosives were on. And now you understand why i was having a problem with your answer cynt?
  • Smashbro29Smashbro29 Waiting for the new Framemeister... Joined: Posts: 7,164
    Cyntalan wrote: »
    a) any battering item puts you at a disadvantage of losing your ground based attacks in favor of the battering swings. With the change from how chucked items went from Brawl to 4, they're all both catchable and reflectable where they were not before (good god Star Rod, what did Sakurai do to you?!?). Speedier characters will get to items more frequently provided they have the stage control already in place, and utilizing them as a projectile is a risk in and of itself due to catching.

    b) you don't look like you actually read the list and their intents by this part - what you describe as ridiculous are almost entirely in the more ludicrous ranks. The rest can be argued about, and none of them show up in the lower ranks.

    Speed <> item obtainment. It helps sometimes, but if you're focusing on grabbing that next item, you're not as focused on your opponent. That's kind of the point behind item play. That added level of adaptability. But this is beside the point. We're not arguing about items in general. Please stop bringing it back to that. Keep your thoughts in the place of "items are in" before more arguments come out.

    a) In Smash it is always the characters that can be where they want when they want that matter. Add items and where they want becomes at the next item. If that item is battering and they put you off stage in tumble or hitstun you are eating a battering item to the face. No risks. It's not so clear cut but it really just makes the good characters better.

    b) I was just giving thoughts off the top of my head, I didn't reference the chart.

    Speed helps so much in item obtainment, of course faster means your chances of grabbing things goes up. You only need to focus on your attention on positioning and defense if you're going for the goodies, stall like mad and pick things up. I have played with items, it's a legit strategy especially as Sonic.

    I never in that post just said "ban items", I was going with the discussion of "if items than no X" you don't have to repeat yourself mom and you're not my mom so cool it boss.
  • CyntalanCyntalan Av comes from my child's math homework - no joke Joined: Posts: 7,917 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    My bad - I think I mixed it with your previous post which WAS kinda like that. The power items are in a good place, IMO. You'd have to be playing in high-stakes matches to consider it, and IMO, you're hitting a point where the focus shifts from the healthy balance of items and players to being almost entirely about the items, regardless of spawn rate.

    As for the battering item off stage thing... I'm trying to imagine a scenario where all that can happen at the same time. An item would have to a) spawn as you've been knocked off, b) been knocked off with an attack that did a large deal of stun, c) can be chucked at you before you stop tumbling and can airdodge/catch, and d) be enough to cause you to die where it otherwise would not have.
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    "I violated marc but we definitely cool now." - dre37k
  • Mood4food77Mood4food77 Joined: Posts: 9,085
    edited April 2016
    Ill say this. You cant discuss the ranking of items without the validity of them. They have to go hand in hand. While i may have been loud and obnoxious is was trying to make a point that you werent answering and kept avoiding. Items change the metagame and different items bring different things. But you knew that already, so why couldn't you answer it clearly.

    Do i think items should be banned in competitive play? Yes because it adds an uncontrollable rng element to a fighting game. But, even though this is the item thread, we cant discuss it. Only the ranks.

    You're rankings are kind of all over the place looking at it. Each rank is a different metagame and should mostly reflect as such. Honestly, the smogon pokemon tiering bs does work here. Each tier is different because of how strong everything is. It's gonna play a bit backwards here but i think you get my point.

    Now, my scenario above only plays out with explosives turned on, which is clearly why we cant have those rank 1. I think we should relook at the rankings entirely to see what you want. My proposal for the rankings:

    Rank 0
    No items, doesnt change anything anyone does or how they play. Move along.

    Rank 1: Fire flower, mr. Freezie, mr. Saturn, grass, smoke ball, sandbag, banana peel

    These items do very little in changing standard play. They add elements but nothing so drastic that completely invalidates some strategies.

    Rank 2: food, bunny hood, super scope, pitfall, hothead, green shell, bumper, spring, unira, soccer ball, pow block, spiny shell, boomerang, beehive, killer eye, screw attack, super leaf, rocket belt

    This is the bulk of item gameplay. These add elements that were not present in ranks 1. Most are easily avoidable and dont disrupt regular gameplay too much. Much stronger than rank 1 items.

    Rank 3: superspicy curry, warp star, beam sword, lips stick, star rod, fire bar, ray gun, steel diver, drill, gooey bomb, deku nut, team healer, boss galaga

    Stronger items for play. Shit starts to get a bit hectic but nothing crazy yet. These mostly amplify character weakness like range, knockback, and projectile. No unneccessary shitting your pants yet.

    Rank 4: smash ball, assist trophy, pokeball, master ball, dragoon parts, daybreak parts, containers, blastbox, bullet bill, ore club, hammer, home run bat, golden hammer, bomb omb, motion sensor bomb, smart bomb, bombchu, x bomb, hocotate bomb, beetle, cucco

    Shit is now crazy. These are all crazy strong in the KO/disruptive department. Shits bout to go down. Think about your next move or you might die

    Rank 5: super mushroom, poison mushroom, metal box, timer, lightning, franklin badge

    This is banned list 1. Basically they have no spot in tournaments but these items have some drawbacks. They are very disruptive and cause havoc.

    Rank 6: maximum tomatos, heart container, fairy bottle, starman, gust bellows, back shield, special flag

    These are only allowed when everything is allowed. They are unbelieveably broken items where there are no defense strats or you simply run for your life. They change the tide of a match too much to even be considered for legality ever

    While obviously this should be discussed, i think it breaks it down a little bit while also categorizing the items more. Which i do feel would be better for running item tournaments, leagues, or round robins. Some items in lower ranks might seem stronger but do remember, i tried to categorize more so on how disruptive and how much change they can bring. Could the beam sword be an overall better item than a bomb omb? Yes but its not going to explode at random.

    Please take it into thought before dismissing
    Post edited by Mood4food77 on
  • CyntalanCyntalan Av comes from my child's math homework - no joke Joined: Posts: 7,917 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    The main reason I didn't want to break it out further was more for simplicity's sake, while still maintaining enough division.

    I do take your point in deciding value of items based less on their power and more on their disruptiveness. It is an idea that warrants consideration. These are the kind of discussions I'd prefer to have here, though.

    My point with taking the whole "validity" argument out is that it will do nothing but derail the purpose of the thread. I would rather have a discussion with the idea that this isn't an argument, as it makes it far more difficult to discuss the specifics when the argument of "fuck it, it's all bad" kinda works counter to that.
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  • Mood4food77Mood4food77 Joined: Posts: 9,085
    You cant have rankings without validity

    Which items are nuts is an argument of validity.
    Which items are okay is an argument of validity

    They are not mutually exclusive ideas and cannot be. You have to understand why something can be broken before saying that it definitely isnt. Same as the argument for the reverse
  • CyntalanCyntalan Av comes from my child's math homework - no joke Joined: Posts: 7,917 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    edited April 2016
    You cant have rankings without validity

    Which items are nuts is an argument of validity.
    Which items are okay is an argument of validity

    They are not mutually exclusive ideas and cannot be. You have to understand why something can be broken before saying that it definitely isnt. Same as the argument for the reverse

    We're talking about two different things. I'm actually saying ALL items are valid (yes, even gust bellows). Some are just more potent than others. A Rank 5 setup would be as valid as a Rank 1, however. For those who dare enter. It's like high-stakes poker. It's not for everyone, but if you wanna try it? Go for it.

    What my point behind validation is where to draw the line for certain levels of stakes. The more potent the effect, the wilder the results can skew. All ranks are valid, but some ranks may be too rich for some people's blood. The entire purpose of the ranking system is to simplify this determination.
    ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ PRAISE HELIX ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ

    "NO! NOT LIKE THIS!" - Random audience member, Evo 2k9 SC4 finals. Go Hilde!
    "You are a weird, adorable little man, OZ." - Vynce
    "I violated marc but we definitely cool now." - dre37k
  • Mood4food77Mood4food77 Joined: Posts: 9,085
    ....still talking about validity when talking about ranking

    Anywho. With my rankings, do you feel anything is entirely out of place based on my reasoning
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