The Great Item Debate - 4th Edition

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  • Mood4food77Mood4food77 Joined: Posts: 9,780
    This is the items thread. How does it not have a place in the items thread?
  • po pimpuspo pimpus Beyond Anger... Ultra Rage Joined: Posts: 25,992
    So Bayonetta isn't the only thing Smash players refuse to learn how to deal with, huh?
    "Capcom should listen to their fans... Mega Man is a cool character." -2048 President Elect Kevin at Age 10
  • CyntalanCyntalan Joined: Posts: 8,341 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Cyntalan wrote: »
    THIS IS NOT A THREAD TO BITCH ABOUT ITEMS. Take that shit elsewhere. This is not the place to discuss the validity of items. The idea within this thread is to discuss which items belong in a given rank and why. This list is what I would like to maintain and update as we discuss. Keep the discussion with the consideration that with this, most stages that would otherwise be considered unplayable may indeed still be viable.
    Cyntalan wrote: »
    This is not the place to discuss the validity of items.
    Cyntalan wrote: »
    This is not the place to discuss the validity of items.
    Cyntalan wrote: »
    This is not the place to discuss the validity of items.
    Cyntalan wrote: »
    This is not the place to discuss the validity of items.

    I cannot stress this enough.
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  • Mood4food77Mood4food77 Joined: Posts: 9,780
    Please read it again and understand what i am asking.

    I want a legitimate answer thats more than adapting because that gets no where. Cynt has provided it. I dont think anyone else can. So im going to wait until an answer does
  • po pimpuspo pimpus Beyond Anger... Ultra Rage Joined: Posts: 25,992
    There are like 1,000,000,0000 x infinity places to talk about why you hate items.

    I thought this was the one place where people could actually discuss item use/spawning/strategy without the usual bullshit.
    "Capcom should listen to their fans... Mega Man is a cool character." -2048 President Elect Kevin at Age 10
  • CyntalanCyntalan Joined: Posts: 8,341 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    edited April 2016
    You're asking for something that is about your own validation towards why items are "dumb" and "have no place". That is EXACTLY what I said to keep out of this thread. Please. Drop it. Stop derailing the thread. Take it to the main thread. Hell, go make your own for all I fuckin' care. Just keep it out of here, where it's meant to be a discussion about items in play, not whether they BELONG in play.
    po pimpus wrote: »
    I thought this was the one place where people could actually discuss item use/spawning/strategy without the usual bullshit.

    This a thousand times over.
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  • Mood4food77Mood4food77 Joined: Posts: 9,780
    Still avoiding the question. You are not providing an answer to what i asked in the paste bin. So ill just put it here with the scenario:

    In my tournament match against manie there was a specific scenario. He was bayo, i was cloud. He's at 120%, i was at 100%, i did not have my limit charge. He whiffed an fsmash pretty close to me. Why should i have not gone for the fsmash KO?

    In the actual match, we both exploded and died. But ignore this part and just answer the question. Dont avoid it. Answer it as specifically as possible.

    I hate items in the competitive way, if it's just for fun, fuck it let them rock (besides gusting bellows)
  • CyntalanCyntalan Joined: Posts: 8,341 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    edited April 2016
    Still avoiding the question. You are not providing an answer to what i asked in the paste bin. So ill just put it here with the scenario:

    In my tournament match against manie there was a specific scenario. He was bayo, i was cloud. He's at 120%, i was at 100%, i did not have my limit charge. He whiffed an fsmash pretty close to me. Why should i have not gone for the fsmash KO?

    In the actual match, we both exploded and died. But ignore this part and just answer the question. Dont avoid it. Answer it as specifically as possible.

    I hate items in the competitive way, if it's just for fun, fuck it let them rock (besides gusting bellows)

    I'll be glad to answer. Hell, I'd be happy for anyone else to answer in favor or against.

    JUST

    NOT

    HERE
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    "NO! NOT LIKE THIS!" - Random audience member, Evo 2k9 SC4 finals. Go Hilde!
    "You are a weird, adorable little man, OZ." - Vynce
    "I violated marc but we definitely cool now." - dre37k
  • Mood4food77Mood4food77 Joined: Posts: 9,780
    It's the item thread, we should keep it in the item thread.

    Also, as proven by that pastebin, you cant answer it. Which is why I'm asking for others.
  • CyntalanCyntalan Joined: Posts: 8,341 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    No.

    This is NOT the "item validity" thread. Read the fucking OP. You come in here and post, you do so knowing that "items are here". By coming in here and trying to argue the justification of items, you are sullying and derailing this thread.

    giphy.gif
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    "NO! NOT LIKE THIS!" - Random audience member, Evo 2k9 SC4 finals. Go Hilde!
    "You are a weird, adorable little man, OZ." - Vynce
    "I violated marc but we definitely cool now." - dre37k
  • Mood4food77Mood4food77 Joined: Posts: 9,780
    I moved it to the main thread, happy?
  • LordWilliam1234LordWilliam1234 Permanent Character Crisis Joined: Posts: 22,108
    Mood's whole issue is with an explosive randomly dropping. As I recall, when items were a format before explosives were generally turned off (and the League match was rank 4, when tournies would probably run rank 2 or 3). Main reason they vanished entirely was because explosive crates couldn't be turned off. Now they can be turned off along with other explosives. Which erases the scenario Mood is whining about.

    Items are fine as their own format, really the issue is which items to have in this kind of setting, which the OP already has different levels to have (rank 4 and 5 being the equivalent of "Uber," rank 3 "OU," so on and so forth). As Cyntalan has stated, the discussion shouldn't be whether or not items should be a format, but rather which items should be ranked accordingly for a competitive setting.

    (I'd contribute more to said discussion but honestly I don't really have anything to say for or against the current ranking of each item in the OP)
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  • Mood4food77Mood4food77 Joined: Posts: 9,780
    We have a winner

    The only reason i should not have gone for the punish is because explosives were on. And now you understand why i was having a problem with your answer cynt?
  • Smashbro29Smashbro29 Waiting for the new Framemeister... Joined: Posts: 7,199
    Cyntalan wrote: »
    a) any battering item puts you at a disadvantage of losing your ground based attacks in favor of the battering swings. With the change from how chucked items went from Brawl to 4, they're all both catchable and reflectable where they were not before (good god Star Rod, what did Sakurai do to you?!?). Speedier characters will get to items more frequently provided they have the stage control already in place, and utilizing them as a projectile is a risk in and of itself due to catching.

    b) you don't look like you actually read the list and their intents by this part - what you describe as ridiculous are almost entirely in the more ludicrous ranks. The rest can be argued about, and none of them show up in the lower ranks.

    Speed <> item obtainment. It helps sometimes, but if you're focusing on grabbing that next item, you're not as focused on your opponent. That's kind of the point behind item play. That added level of adaptability. But this is beside the point. We're not arguing about items in general. Please stop bringing it back to that. Keep your thoughts in the place of "items are in" before more arguments come out.

    a) In Smash it is always the characters that can be where they want when they want that matter. Add items and where they want becomes at the next item. If that item is battering and they put you off stage in tumble or hitstun you are eating a battering item to the face. No risks. It's not so clear cut but it really just makes the good characters better.

    b) I was just giving thoughts off the top of my head, I didn't reference the chart.

    Speed helps so much in item obtainment, of course faster means your chances of grabbing things goes up. You only need to focus on your attention on positioning and defense if you're going for the goodies, stall like mad and pick things up. I have played with items, it's a legit strategy especially as Sonic.

    I never in that post just said "ban items", I was going with the discussion of "if items than no X" you don't have to repeat yourself mom and you're not my mom so cool it boss.
  • CyntalanCyntalan Joined: Posts: 8,341 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    My bad - I think I mixed it with your previous post which WAS kinda like that. The power items are in a good place, IMO. You'd have to be playing in high-stakes matches to consider it, and IMO, you're hitting a point where the focus shifts from the healthy balance of items and players to being almost entirely about the items, regardless of spawn rate.

    As for the battering item off stage thing... I'm trying to imagine a scenario where all that can happen at the same time. An item would have to a) spawn as you've been knocked off, b) been knocked off with an attack that did a large deal of stun, c) can be chucked at you before you stop tumbling and can airdodge/catch, and d) be enough to cause you to die where it otherwise would not have.
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  • Mood4food77Mood4food77 Joined: Posts: 9,780
    edited April 2016
    Ill say this. You cant discuss the ranking of items without the validity of them. They have to go hand in hand. While i may have been loud and obnoxious is was trying to make a point that you werent answering and kept avoiding. Items change the metagame and different items bring different things. But you knew that already, so why couldn't you answer it clearly.

    Do i think items should be banned in competitive play? Yes because it adds an uncontrollable rng element to a fighting game. But, even though this is the item thread, we cant discuss it. Only the ranks.

    You're rankings are kind of all over the place looking at it. Each rank is a different metagame and should mostly reflect as such. Honestly, the smogon pokemon tiering bs does work here. Each tier is different because of how strong everything is. It's gonna play a bit backwards here but i think you get my point.

    Now, my scenario above only plays out with explosives turned on, which is clearly why we cant have those rank 1. I think we should relook at the rankings entirely to see what you want. My proposal for the rankings:

    Rank 0
    No items, doesnt change anything anyone does or how they play. Move along.

    Rank 1: Fire flower, mr. Freezie, mr. Saturn, grass, smoke ball, sandbag, banana peel

    These items do very little in changing standard play. They add elements but nothing so drastic that completely invalidates some strategies.

    Rank 2: food, bunny hood, super scope, pitfall, hothead, green shell, bumper, spring, unira, soccer ball, pow block, spiny shell, boomerang, beehive, killer eye, screw attack, super leaf, rocket belt

    This is the bulk of item gameplay. These add elements that were not present in ranks 1. Most are easily avoidable and dont disrupt regular gameplay too much. Much stronger than rank 1 items.

    Rank 3: superspicy curry, warp star, beam sword, lips stick, star rod, fire bar, ray gun, steel diver, drill, gooey bomb, deku nut, team healer, boss galaga

    Stronger items for play. Shit starts to get a bit hectic but nothing crazy yet. These mostly amplify character weakness like range, knockback, and projectile. No unneccessary shitting your pants yet.

    Rank 4: smash ball, assist trophy, pokeball, master ball, dragoon parts, daybreak parts, containers, blastbox, bullet bill, ore club, hammer, home run bat, golden hammer, bomb omb, motion sensor bomb, smart bomb, bombchu, x bomb, hocotate bomb, beetle, cucco

    Shit is now crazy. These are all crazy strong in the KO/disruptive department. Shits bout to go down. Think about your next move or you might die

    Rank 5: super mushroom, poison mushroom, metal box, timer, lightning, franklin badge

    This is banned list 1. Basically they have no spot in tournaments but these items have some drawbacks. They are very disruptive and cause havoc.

    Rank 6: maximum tomatos, heart container, fairy bottle, starman, gust bellows, back shield, special flag

    These are only allowed when everything is allowed. They are unbelieveably broken items where there are no defense strats or you simply run for your life. They change the tide of a match too much to even be considered for legality ever

    While obviously this should be discussed, i think it breaks it down a little bit while also categorizing the items more. Which i do feel would be better for running item tournaments, leagues, or round robins. Some items in lower ranks might seem stronger but do remember, i tried to categorize more so on how disruptive and how much change they can bring. Could the beam sword be an overall better item than a bomb omb? Yes but its not going to explode at random.

    Please take it into thought before dismissing
    Post edited by Mood4food77 on
  • CyntalanCyntalan Joined: Posts: 8,341 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    The main reason I didn't want to break it out further was more for simplicity's sake, while still maintaining enough division.

    I do take your point in deciding value of items based less on their power and more on their disruptiveness. It is an idea that warrants consideration. These are the kind of discussions I'd prefer to have here, though.

    My point with taking the whole "validity" argument out is that it will do nothing but derail the purpose of the thread. I would rather have a discussion with the idea that this isn't an argument, as it makes it far more difficult to discuss the specifics when the argument of "fuck it, it's all bad" kinda works counter to that.
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    "I violated marc but we definitely cool now." - dre37k
  • Mood4food77Mood4food77 Joined: Posts: 9,780
    You cant have rankings without validity

    Which items are nuts is an argument of validity.
    Which items are okay is an argument of validity

    They are not mutually exclusive ideas and cannot be. You have to understand why something can be broken before saying that it definitely isnt. Same as the argument for the reverse
  • CyntalanCyntalan Joined: Posts: 8,341 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    edited April 2016
    You cant have rankings without validity

    Which items are nuts is an argument of validity.
    Which items are okay is an argument of validity

    They are not mutually exclusive ideas and cannot be. You have to understand why something can be broken before saying that it definitely isnt. Same as the argument for the reverse

    We're talking about two different things. I'm actually saying ALL items are valid (yes, even gust bellows). Some are just more potent than others. A Rank 5 setup would be as valid as a Rank 1, however. For those who dare enter. It's like high-stakes poker. It's not for everyone, but if you wanna try it? Go for it.

    What my point behind validation is where to draw the line for certain levels of stakes. The more potent the effect, the wilder the results can skew. All ranks are valid, but some ranks may be too rich for some people's blood. The entire purpose of the ranking system is to simplify this determination.
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    "NO! NOT LIKE THIS!" - Random audience member, Evo 2k9 SC4 finals. Go Hilde!
    "You are a weird, adorable little man, OZ." - Vynce
    "I violated marc but we definitely cool now." - dre37k
  • Mood4food77Mood4food77 Joined: Posts: 9,780
    ....still talking about validity when talking about ranking

    Anywho. With my rankings, do you feel anything is entirely out of place based on my reasoning
  • RocketUppercutRocketUppercut "You have no dignity." Joined: Posts: 628
    edited April 2016
    Play with whatever you want, Smash Bruddas is the best party game ever, next to Wii Sports :^)

    Did you see the way Ganondorf slipped on that banana peel? Hysterical! Oh, and the way that the Bob-omb blew up the Smash ball and I hit all 7 opponents at the same time in the final battle of Smash Tour? All of my friends giggled with glee at the sight!
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  • CyntalanCyntalan Joined: Posts: 8,341 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    ....still talking about validity when talking about ranking
    The point of this thread is to discuss ASSUMING that items are valid. Thus discussing whether they are valid have no place. I don't see how this can be made clearer.
    Anywho. With my rankings, do you feel anything is entirely out of place based on my reasoning
    I'm not sure, honestly. I still think 6 ranks (technically 7) is too much to decide on. If anything, I'd say it should be pared down to 4 (5) ranks in some manner, but overall, I don't think your list is exactly that far off mine, tbh.

    In the end, while I agree that disruptiveness should be a huge factor in the rankings, I don't think it's the only one. I'd say three factors really are involved: disruptiveness, potency, and risk factor, in that order of impact.

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    "I violated marc but we definitely cool now." - dre37k
  • Mood4food77Mood4food77 Joined: Posts: 9,780
    I did calculate that as well but i kept a general idea: how different is the game with these items?

    Like gooey bombs explode but i have it in rank 3 while almost all other exploding items are rank 4. Most battering items are rank 3 but i did the hammers and bat in rank 4, etc

    I separated into 6 ranks because of power, rank 6 is anything goes. There are no drawbacks to those items and change the game too much. 5 is uber but still have a metagame around them
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