What REALLY makes Akuma Broke?

2

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  • Born2SPDBorn2SPD SPD Fanatic Joined: Posts: 276
    Are you serious?
    I keep reading stuff about ST revival, about bringing this game back to life...
    Its nice to see big tourneys happening and old top players giving this game a chance again...
    But what we really need is new players... And having a strong scene obviously helps...
    But in my opinion what will really bring new players to our community is good tutorials/character guides so they can learn easily and have something to start... So, actually good players, stop being selfish and write stuff about the chars you know! The wiki is lacking so much basic content... Stop being lazy and do something about it.
  • Jion_WansuJion_Wansu Joined: Posts: 5,149
    Yup
  • Jion_WansuJion_Wansu Joined: Posts: 5,149
    So, does anyone know why Akuma was banned in HSF2?
  • Jion_WansuJion_Wansu Joined: Posts: 5,149
    I believe that a group of people jumped the gun and banned Akuma prematurely. If people are worried about akuma's dizzy properties in ST then here is the solution: If an akuma player dizzies opponent then he/she does nothing until opponent recovers. Akuma should be unbanned in all HSF2 AE events because there are stronger characters in that game.
  • Born2SPDBorn2SPD SPD Fanatic Joined: Posts: 276
    I think most people don't really care because HSF2 sucks...
    I keep reading stuff about ST revival, about bringing this game back to life...
    Its nice to see big tourneys happening and old top players giving this game a chance again...
    But what we really need is new players... And having a strong scene obviously helps...
    But in my opinion what will really bring new players to our community is good tutorials/character guides so they can learn easily and have something to start... So, actually good players, stop being selfish and write stuff about the chars you know! The wiki is lacking so much basic content... Stop being lazy and do something about it.
  • Jion_WansuJion_Wansu Joined: Posts: 5,149
    Born2SPD, what about testing an unbanned Akuma in offline events...
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,707
    Dude. The game's been out for 20 years. Akuma has been tested in every environment and he's broken in every single one. If you're going to troll, at least put some more effort into it.
  • OrochiDemonOrochiDemon Joined: Posts: 1,537
    Desk wrote: »
    ... you can't stun him.

    Ive played Akuma on winkawaks, and Ken dizzies him in the second round. I have screenshots, but cant upload them to here.
  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    Desk wrote: »
    ... you can't stun him.

    Ive played Akuma on winkawaks, and Ken dizzies him in the second round. I have screenshots, but cant upload them to here.
    Only to see him recover immediately as soon as he gets on his toes. The only effects of Akuma being dizzied are he taking less damage during a combo due to falling on his back (which can be a big advantage alone, if it was a combo into super or rekkas), and eventually being unable to soften a throw.
  • OrochiDemonOrochiDemon Joined: Posts: 1,537
    UltraDavid when doing commentary always says he cant be dizzied, I guess he should be more specific.
  • fakeakagifakeakagi Joined: Posts: 117
    Well he just falls over, gets back up and has the stars for the split second then recovers immediately.
  • Jion_WansuJion_Wansu Joined: Posts: 5,149
    fakeakagi wrote: »
    Well he just falls over, gets back up and has the stars for the split second then recovers immediately.

    Yeah, like the CPU controlled Zangief on hardest level among other CPU controlled characters
  • fakeakagifakeakagi Joined: Posts: 117
    Yeah that fucker reversal spd'd me when I tried to capitalize on his dizzy. Fuck the cpu in that game.
  • Jion_WansuJion_Wansu Joined: Posts: 5,149
    edited February 2014
    LOOOOL these videos is funny:




  • OGSFOGSF Joined: Posts: 713
    Ok, dumb question but why isn't Akuma "broke" or banned in other games? Akuma has some BS in other games like Third Strike:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bbc9NIiOzBs&feature=player_detailpage#t=121

    Not to mention V-Akuma in A3 for example
    "The few prosper, while the rest suffer." - OGSF
  • studtrooperstudtrooper Super Turbo Joined: Posts: 3,053
    Akuma was never meant to be balanced in ST. He was literally a selectable boss character. No one complains about not being able to use Gill in 3s tourneys for the same reason.
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  • jedpossumjedpossum Ok, Darling Joined: Posts: 4,227
    First, Akuma playable and Akuma Boss even in ST are separate characters even then the playable version good enough to beat the cast easily.

    Shit changes from game to game. Animations change which effect hitbox placements and frame data. New mechanics are made as well. Fireball speeds and trajectory get changed.

    Also, Akuma isn't the best character in A3 it's Dhalsim.

    I occasionally stream so you can see how boring poking around in the memory is. www.hitbox.tv/jedpossum

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  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,707
    OGSF wrote: »
    Ok, dumb question but why isn't Akuma "broke" or banned in other games? Akuma has some BS in other games like Third Strike:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bbc9NIiOzBs&feature=player_detailpage#t=121

    Not to mention V-Akuma in A3 for example

    It's not even comparable. He was originally put in as a secret boss character never intended for serious play. It wasn't until Alpha series where they actually toyed with the idea of making him a real character.

    High priority normals, the best angle on an air fireball he's ever received in any version of the game, high damage/stun combos, cannot be stunned, extremely fast and reliable teleport, and every single matchup in the game being at LEAST 7-3 in his favor.

    He's designed as broken, and functions as broken.
  • 7 5 07 5 0 Joined: Posts: 434
    The dark hadou made him overpowered. SF finally got a series done right finally in film.

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=vn7yl1EnWI4
  • 7 5 07 5 0 Joined: Posts: 434
    OGSF wrote: »
    Ok, dumb question but why isn't Akuma "broke" or banned in other games? Akuma has some BS in other games like Third Strike:

    He's nerfed fairly in 3rd strike. Slow normals, low stun gauge and possibly the lowest stun meter in the game, weak air fireballs, overall a slow character and sometimes predictable to counter. His juggles are insane though.

    Akuma is not even top tier in the game. I played this extensively last decade and I've seen players like Kuroda turn this character into the ultra dark hadou killer OCVing the entire team at Super battle opera tournament years ago.
  • OGSFOGSF Joined: Posts: 713
    Not to mention his Q being Gill tier...
    "The few prosper, while the rest suffer." - OGSF
  • Jion_WansuJion_Wansu Joined: Posts: 5,149
    Don't know if these videos have been posted or not. But these are 2 of many examples that show how Akuma is overrated. In other words, he should not be S Tier or God Tier or whatever. He is not that good:



  • oldschool_BRoldschool_BR Projectile spammer Joined: Posts: 2,442
    So Akuma should be unbanned because of scrubs who cannot reverse at all, miss several opportunities to land damage, don't know how to do Akuma's unblockables, seem not to be aware that Akuma's tatsu is 100% invincible during start-up, spam tatsus for no reason, and reset the game when they lose.
  • studtrooperstudtrooper Super Turbo Joined: Posts: 3,053
    Isn't Jodim like the best Gief in the world? Not the best comparison to make your case. Any shoto worth their shit instantly levels up x100 if they get to legally to use Akuma.
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  • Jion_WansuJion_Wansu Joined: Posts: 5,149
    Yeah but... why don't we give it a try. We can use FightCade to run a test tournament and allow anyone to use Akuma
  • KingfaceKingface UK Super SFII Turbo Player Joined: Posts: 27
    Jion_Wansu wrote: »
    Yeah but... why don't we give it a try. We can use FightCade to run a test tournament and allow anyone to use Akuma

    Yeah, or, we could not.

    Seriously, what would it achieve apart from potentially making competitive ST a lot less fun?
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  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,707
    It's been 20 years. People aren't wrong about Akuma. But sure, go ahead and run a tourney yourself and watch a hundred Akuma mirrors.
  • 7 5 07 5 0 Joined: Posts: 434
    Wth resetting several times?.. Those videos are worse than visiting a funeral.
    Jion_Wansu wrote: »
    Don't know if these videos have been posted or not. But these are 2 of many examples that show how Akuma is overrated. In other words, he should not be S Tier or God Tier or whatever. He is not that good:




  • Missing PersonMissing Person Givin' dat ho ho ho dem eyes. Joined: Posts: 13,528
    @Jion_Wansu proving he has no idea what he's talking about.

    Using lastscene losing as Akuma to say Akuma isn't broken is akin to saying Ivan Ooze isn't broken in MMPR because you gave the controller to a random retarded kid in a grocery store and he lost to somebody play Lip Syncer.
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  • Jion_WansuJion_Wansu Joined: Posts: 5,149
    I'll challenge anyone to use Akuma against me, and you will see that Akuma is not that special
  • studtrooperstudtrooper Super Turbo Joined: Posts: 3,053
    Jion_Wansu wrote: »
    I'll challenge anyone to use Akuma against me, and you will see that Akuma is not that special

    I'm not a shoto user but I have played you... I don't think that's a challenge you should issue.

    ST/HDR: Honda/Rog/O.Hawk | USF4: Bison | SFV: Ryu :(
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  • Jion_WansuJion_Wansu Joined: Posts: 5,149
    studtrooper, ready?
  • 7 5 07 5 0 Joined: Posts: 434
    Could you pass the joint you're smoking?
  • studtrooperstudtrooper Super Turbo Joined: Posts: 3,053
    Jion_Wansu wrote: »
    studtrooper, ready?

    I wasn't saying I would play akuma against you, only that a good shoto player who knows why ST Akuma is beyond broken would humble you. I'm not saying this to hurt feelings or whatever. I just don't think you know the extent of how much better akuma is against the rest of the cast.
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  • Jion_WansuJion_Wansu Joined: Posts: 5,149
    Gouki is essentially a CE Ryu/Ken with air Hadouken
  • studtrooperstudtrooper Super Turbo Joined: Posts: 3,053
    edited April 2015
    Jion_Wansu wrote: »
    Gouki is essentially a CE Ryu/Ken with air Hadouken

    :/ Akuma has all the advantages of O.Ryu (including 50/50 unblockable jump tatsu), juggle-able tatsu, air fireball, red fireball that can trap virtually the entire cast in the corner with no possibility of escape, can't be dizzied, boss-level combo ability and hit-box advantages, and a teleport. What aren't you seeing about this?
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  • Missing PersonMissing Person Givin' dat ho ho ho dem eyes. Joined: Posts: 13,528
    Jion_Wansu wrote: »
    Gouki is essentially a CE Ryu/Ken with air Hadouken

    :/ Akuma has all the advantages of O.Ryu (including 50/50 unblockable jump tatsu), juggle-able tatsu, air fireball, red fireball that can trap virtually the entire cast in the corner with no possibility of escape, can't be dizzied, boss-level combo ability and hit-box advantages, and a teleport. What aren't you seeing about this?

    The screen.
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  • Jion_WansuJion_Wansu Joined: Posts: 5,149
    Let's revisit...

    After 21 years of ST (I know, ST is now legal)...

    Gouki has dropped in the ranks due to the fact that people have learned how to avoid the airfireball, corner traps, and other things. Hell, people have even learned the matchups VS Gouki so good that they even are taking advantage of his poor health/no super. That instant recovery dizzy aint shit either.

  • NaerasNaeras Terribad Joined: Posts: 2,849
    Jion_Wansu wrote: »
    Let's revisit...

    After 21 years of ST (I know, ST is now legal)...

    Gouki has dropped in the ranks due to the fact that people have learned how to avoid the airfireball, corner traps, and other things. Hell, people have even learned the matchups VS Gouki so good that they even are taking advantage of his poor health/no super. That instant recovery dizzy aint shit either.
    Nope.
  • ArtVandelayArtVandelay Architect Joined: Posts: 4,312
    I recently heard that old Sagat is soft banned as well in ST tournaments in Japan?
    Is that true?
    CFN: NaughtySenpai
  • Jion_WansuJion_Wansu Joined: Posts: 5,149
    I recently heard that old Sagat is soft banned as well in ST tournaments in Japan?
    Is that true?

    yes
  • KomatikKomatik Card demon Joined: Posts: 2,656
    I recently heard that old Sagat is soft banned as well in ST tournaments in Japan?
    Is that true?

    The Japanese don't really like playing O.chars because they need a code to pick and whatnot, though that's loosened up a good bit in recent years. Many still don't pick O.Gat because he's considered boring.

    But you do see O.chars get picked in tournaments - Yakitori often runs O.Hawk, and PECO usually runs O.chars too. If memory serves, Kurahashi's said that he picks O.Ken against Claw because "Claw is broken so I need a cheap character too".
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  • NaerasNaeras Terribad Joined: Posts: 2,849
    edited November 2015
    David Sirlin wrote on this topic in his book:
    Many versions of Street Fighter have "secret characters" that are only accessible through a code. Sometimes these characters are good; sometimes they're not. Occasionally, the secret characters are the best in the game as in the game Marvel vs. Capcom 1. Big deal. That's the way that game is. Live with it. But Super Turbo was the first version of Street Fighter to ever have a secret character: the untouchably good Akuma. Most characters in that game cannot beat Akuma. I don't mean it's a tough match--I mean they cannot ever, ever, ever, ever win. Akuma is "broken" in that his air fireball move is something the game simply wasn't designed to handle. He is not merely the best character in the game, but is at least ten times better than other characters. This case is so extreme that all top players in America immediately realized that all tournaments would be Akuma vs. Akuma only, and so the character was banned with basically no debate and has been ever since. I believe this was the correct decision.

    Japan, however, does not officially ban Akuma from tournaments! They have what is called a "soft ban." This is a tacit understanding amongst all top players that Akuma is too good to be played, and that he destroys an otherwise beautiful game, so they unofficially agree not to play him. There are always a very small number of people who do play him in tournaments, but never the top players. Usually a few poor players try their hand at the god-character and lose, which is utterly humiliating and crowd-pleasing. This is an interesting alternate take on the "hard ban" we have in America.

    That's all well and good, but Japan has also shown signs of a soft-ban on another character in Super Turbo. I bring up this example because it lives on the threshold. It is just on the edge of what is reasonable to ban because it is "too good." Anything less than this would not be reasonable, so perhaps others can use it as a benchmark to decide what is reasonable in their games.

    The character in question is the mysteriously named "Old Sagat." Old Sagat is not a secret character like Akuma (or at least he's not as secret!). Old Sagat does not have any moves like Akuma's air fireball that the game was not designed to handle. Old Sagat is arguably the best character in the game (Akuma, of course, doesn't count), but even that is debated by top players! I think almost any expert player would rank him in the top three of all characters, but there isn't even universal agreement that he is the best! Why, then, would any reasonable person even consider banning him? Surely, it must be a group of scrubs who simply don't know how to beat him, and reflexively cry out for a ban.

    But this is not the case. There seems to be a tacit agreement amongst top players in Japan--a soft ban--on playing Old Sagat. The reason is that many believe the game to have much more variety without Old Sagat. Even if he is only second best in the game by some measure, he flat out beats half the characters in the game with little effort. Half the cast can barely even fight him, let alone beat him. Other top characters in the game, good as they are, win by much more interaction and more "gameplay." Almost every character has a chance against the other best characters in the game. The result of allowing Old Sagat in tournaments is that several other characters, such as Chun Li and Ken, become basically unviable.

    If someone had made these claims in the game's infancy, no sort of ban would be warranted. Further testing through tournaments would be warranted. But we now have ten years of testing. We don't have all Old Sagat vs. Old Sagat matches in tournaments, but we do know which characters can't beat him and as a result are very rarely played in America. We likewise can see that this same category of characters flourishes in Japan, where Old Sagats are rare and only played by the occasional violator of the soft ban. It seems that the added variety of viable characters might outweigh the lack of Old Sagat. Is this ban warranted then? To be honest, I am not totally convinced that it is, but it is just barely in the ballpark of reasonableness since there is a decade of data on which to base the claim.
    Dunno how accurate this is, or whether this information still is correct to this day. Still, it's clear O.Gat's not really softbanned for his power level alone.
    Claw is also softbanned iirc.
    Post edited by Naeras on
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,707
    That information is, at best, a skewed version of the truth. Soft ban is a pretty dumb word for it anyways, but I guess Sirlin wanted to sound smart or something.

    Akuma has generally legitimately been banned from tournaments. When he's not banned, they make a note of telling everyone in the tournament that he's allowed, e.g. X-Mania Singles Tournament this past year.

    They don't like O.Sagat. They generally don't like old characters because you have to use a code to pick him, so they consider that cast to be a "secret" and not intended for competitive play like the regularly selected roster. But they really despite the good old characters because of how powerful they are and how simple the strategy and their effectiveness is. This extends to basically old Sagat, shotos, and Hawk. For example, Kurahashi usually only picks Ryu, but if he's fighting a Claw, he'll happily switch to O.Ken because he feels that he needs a cheap character to beat a cheap character.

    There are several players who happily play Claw. They might not like the character, and is a bit frowned upon, but you'll see a lot more Claws than O.Sagat players for sure.
  • Jion_WansuJion_Wansu Joined: Posts: 5,149
    eltrouble wrote: »
    ...Akuma has generally legitimately been banned from tournaments. When he's not banned, they make a note of telling everyone in the tournament that he's allowed, e.g. X-Mania Singles Tournament this past year...

    News to me...
  • MaxmanMaxman Joined: Posts: 1,426
    eltrouble wrote: »
    That information is, at best, a skewed version of the truth. Soft ban is a pretty dumb word for it anyways, but I guess Sirlin wanted to sound smart or something.

    Akuma has generally legitimately been banned from tournaments. When he's not banned, they make a note of telling everyone in the tournament that he's allowed, e.g. X-Mania Singles Tournament this past year.

    They don't like O.Sagat. They generally don't like old characters because you have to use a code to pick him, so they consider that cast to be a "secret" and not intended for competitive play like the regularly selected roster. But they really despite the good old characters because of how powerful they are and how simple the strategy and their effectiveness is. This extends to basically old Sagat, shotos, and Hawk. For example, Kurahashi usually only picks Ryu, but if he's fighting a Claw, he'll happily switch to O.Ken because he feels that he needs a cheap character to beat a cheap character.

    There are several players who happily play Claw. They might not like the character, and is a bit frowned upon, but you'll see a lot more Claws than O.Sagat players for sure.

    what makes O.Ken good though ? just a legitemate question
  • Jion_WansuJion_Wansu Joined: Posts: 5,149
  • eltroubleeltrouble Joined: Posts: 5,707
    Maxman wrote: »
    what makes O.Ken good though ? just a legitemate question

    Extended range on his low pokes, better priority on all his low kicks, his j.HK is completely invulnerable, has good damage, his zoning skills is top3, fast walk speed, best uppercut in the game, etc...
  • KomatikKomatik Card demon Joined: Posts: 2,656
    Who'd be better? O.Gat, Sim? He's considered a better zoner than O.Ryu, Ryu, DJ?
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