Rising Thunder - FIGHTING ROBOTS

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  • Hyper InfernoHyper Inferno Joined: Posts: 511
    Game looks cool, both aesthetically and mechanically. Wonder how many asymmetric mechanics like the invisibility thing they're going to put into the game to really take advantage of the fact that it's so netplay orientated.
  • HyenaboyHyenaboy Joined: Posts: 77
    JohnGrimm wrote: »
    http://www.ign.com/articles/2015/07/20/rising-thunder-the-pc-fighting-game-made-for-your-keyboard
    "RISING THUNDER: THE PC FIGHTING GAME MADE FOR YOUR KEYBOARD"

    "And it’s easy to play. It’s easy to feel good, because Rising Thunder requires “mostly one-button, some holds, some button-plus-direction” inputs, with minimal motion input to pull off spectacular, devastating special attacks. I’ve done things I’ve never been able to do in fighting games because of Rising Thunder’s easy inputs. I’ve canceled animations, bait-and-switched opponents, and pulled off preposterous aerial combo"

    As a Hit Box player, yeesh. This does not instill confidence in me. I hope with the style of game this is that the easy inputs don't lead to easy to mash high damage combos.

    God, this fucking article. Fighting games are the way they are because people broke down an originally casual game into a science and discovered all the glitchy technical things about it to give them a competitive edge. Casual players can't compete with pros because of their mindset, not because of the difficulty of the inputs. I fucking suck at games, but when I saw Blazblue played competitively for the first time (thank you Mike Z and Dacidbro), it made me want to be a part of that. So I sat and learned the shit with a shitty Xbox dpad/analog stick and then moved on to learning everything again with an arcade stick. I could give an Xbox controller to an octogenarian and it would take them just as long to learn how to use it intuitively to play a shooter as it would take your average casual player to learn SF inputs. This article makes it sound like we're fucking rocket scientists.

    The reason the "complexities of competitive play" are inaccessible is because the level of actual work and practice and mindset required to play on that level exceeds the attention span that the modern day "average gamer" has. If the inputs were what was holding people back, then we would have hundreds of thousands of pro-level smash players, but look how many people complain about H.Box's play or whine about no items or wave dashing or other tech people developed. If easy inputs are what people want, then why haven't games like Blazblue or P4AU taken off because of their auto combo systems? Why do people still complain about MKX even after shit has been simplified 2x over. I remember how long Deception fatalities were.

    The only way to make competitive play accessible for the average player is to remove any complexity from the game. I see that it seems like specials have a timer on them to prevent "spam". Good luck on finding a serious competitive scene for this game.

    Bitching aside, the gameplay looks super bland right now. I understand that it's in alpha, but it's visually and mechanically unimpressive. Then again, my new baby is Yatagarasu, so take what you will from my taste in games. I worry what the single button press moves will lend to how the moves function. Will there be single press SPDs? The easier the moves, the more mashing shit people will have to complain about.

    I do have a certain affection for the Russian stereotype robot named Vlad though.
  • JocelotJocelot Don't give up! Joined: Posts: 5,370
    Game does look fun tho. From what the videos show. I am very interested in seeing more. I signed up for Alpha just in case I get a new PC or something.
    Party Robot!!
    Now my head can spin. I'll be around for a million years, so let the party begin.
    jak d ripr wrote: »
    That shit had me in stitches. Nigga went for all these flashy set-ups and doom was like hold these boots.
  • keo-baskeo-bas Joined: Posts: 1,988
    Hyenaboy wrote: »
    snip
    so in other words this game isn't for you.
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  • tatakitataki misplaced Joined: Posts: 7,703
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  • MajormelisThereMajormelisThere no labels Joined: Posts: 497
    I'm curious, how would charge characters be handled ? Something like holding a button right?
    Skullgirls: Parasoul, Cerebella
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  • tatakitataki misplaced Joined: Posts: 7,703
    I'm curious, how would charge characters be handled ? Something like holding a button right?

    No charge characters I guess.
    Button layout:
    A B C
    S1S2S3

    The 3 lower ones are dedicated to the 3 special moves you can select before the match.
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  • HyenaboyHyenaboy Joined: Posts: 77
    keo-bas wrote: »
    Hyenaboy wrote: »
    snip
    so in other words this game isn't for you.

    tl;dr Evo scrubs are frustrating me and selling this game on casual accessibility feels like when gaming journalists tried to sell From Soft Games based on "OMG HARDEST GAME EVAR" rather than actual merit.

    After seeing more of it, it doesn't look awful. I feel Killian on the idea of trying to make the fundamentals of a fighter more central rather than a game like Skullgirls where most of your work is done in training mode. My point is that if experienced FG players pick it up seriously, the casuals are still going to get bodied, so this idea that execution is what is holding them back is not the whole story.
  • Hyper InfernoHyper Inferno Joined: Posts: 511
    At the very least, when casuals get bodied in this game, they won't be able to use hard controls as an excuse and will have to suck up the fact that they just got outplayed.
  • tatakitataki misplaced Joined: Posts: 7,703
    In the Polygon video you can clearly see Chel doing several different version of the fireball. Each with different size and cooldown, and all with the same button. Either it's button+direction, or charge->release. The small fireball has no cooldown and can be spammed like classic Street Fighter.
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  • MajormelisThereMajormelisThere no labels Joined: Posts: 497
    Hyenaboy wrote: »
    Nope. Just beg devs for nerfs, and cooldowns on normals too so people don't "spam" them, or maybe you need to press every button at least once before you can press them again so you can show your skill with all the moves. Maybe if they hit a certain health deficit your buttons are locked so they can get a few hits in so new players can have a chance. No block button either apparently so that means that players have to block both high, low, and also block cross ups? A human brain can only think 50/50! They should just make a block button that blocks everything. And NO CHIP DAMAGE!

    Youre overreacting li. It'd be pretty ironic to create a game with accessibility in mind and include a mechanic that removes that.

    If there's wont thing I want out of this game is to at least make some interesting move sets (or adaptions to)revolving around the idea of single button press. Like maybe a character who can do rekkas in a order they want or a charge character that requires holding down a button for a charge. That's really, all I want.

    Skullgirls: Parasoul, Cerebella
    JOJO HFTF: Polnareff, Iggy, jotaro
    Umvc3: poor spider-man, poor ryu, ok sentinel
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 37,137 mod
    Hyenaboy wrote: »
    Nope. Just beg devs for nerfs, and cooldowns on normals too so people don't "spam" them, or maybe you need to press every button at least once before you can press them again so you can show your skill with all the moves. Maybe if they hit a certain health deficit your buttons are locked so they can get a few hits in so new players can have a chance. No block button either apparently so that means that players have to block both high, low, and also block cross ups? A human brain can only think 50/50! They should just make a block button that blocks everything. And NO CHIP DAMAGE!
    Seth is probably the last guy who'd nerf stuff willy nilly.

    I mean, he's the guy who wrote this: http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/91151/on-cheapness
  • truendymiontruendymion Beer Me! Joined: Posts: 2,265
    edited July 2015
    Looks and sounds like an awesome game. Im curious about the input for throws and supers.
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  • AsteriskBlueAsteriskBlue Joined: Posts: 765
    I get you hyenaboy. I am also tired of this myth about SF being crazy complicated. As some who plasys both smash and SF, I also agree that its definitely not quarter circles that keeps people from learning more about FG's.

    Any way, Ill give it shot because the cast is interesting but..... in the gamespot interview they seem pretty adamant about not having offline multiplayer. I can't imagine why and they didn't explain. Seems silly to me.
    It's nice to meet you, too.
  • The_AdventurerThe_Adventurer Joined: Posts: 147
    edited July 2015
    This game sounds really interesting. Especially mechicly. Being to customize move layouts is also much cooler then I expected. I really hope I get into the alpha.
    Looks and sounds like an awesome game. Im curious about the input for throws and supers.

    I'd guess supers would be all three specials pressed at once. Maybe throws all normals?

    Edit: no local multiplayer. That's kind of weird But it does explain why you only see cooldown meters for only one player in the videos. I wonder if knowing your opponents cool downs is too much information. But you would think that information could be learned through experience.
  • truendymiontruendymion Beer Me! Joined: Posts: 2,265
    edited July 2015
    According to Gamespot supers are mapped to a single button, Tom Cannon mentioned he had it mapped to Spacebar.

    And yeah Online only sounds shitty. I won't ever be able to play with my wife :/

    If cooldowns is TMI why not hide the opponents life and super bars while you're at it?
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  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 37,137 mod
    It's online only because the way some of the moves are designed won't work in a situation where players are sharing a screen - for example, I believe one of the articles mentioning something about a move that makes you invisible, only on your opponents screen.
  • truendymiontruendymion Beer Me! Joined: Posts: 2,265
    Yea thats cool. But if the tradeoff is no samescreen play then im not sure its worth it...
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  • The_AdventurerThe_Adventurer Joined: Posts: 147
    edited July 2015
    d3v wrote: »
    It's online only because the way some of the moves are designed won't work in a situation where players are sharing a screen - for example, I believe one of the articles mentioning something about a move that makes you invisible, only on your opponents screen.

    While that's certainly one way to make mostly previously useless invisible fighting game moves work. But it does seem kind of odd. I was looking forward to getting a friend of mine to play with me, but he's got no PC.

    Its not unworkable to have competitive tourneys simply have two PCs and two screens for head to head (and the mind games you can have without being side by side with your opponent might be interesting), but it does seem kind of clunky for a game being pushed as 'accessible'.



    Beginning to wonder if this game will even have Stick support. Since it sounds like its really taking its cues from MOBA keyboard layouts for executions.
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 37,137 mod
    d3v wrote: »
    It's online only because the way some of the moves are designed won't work in a situation where players are sharing a screen - for example, I believe one of the articles mentioning something about a move that makes you invisible, only on your opponents screen.

    While that's certainly one way to make mostly previously useless invisible fighting game moves work. But it does seem kind of odd. I was looking forward to getting a friend of mine to play with me, but he's got no PC.

    Its not unworkable to have competitive tourneys simply have two PCs and two screens for head to head (and the mind games you can have without being side by side with your opponent might be interesting), but it does seem kind of clunky for a game being pushed as 'accessible'.
    I believe the other part of it is that they want to create a fighting game where online play is the norm.
  • HyenaboyHyenaboy Joined: Posts: 77
    d3v wrote: »
    I believe the other part of it is that they want to create a fighting game where online play is the norm.
    Yikes.
  • The_AdventurerThe_Adventurer Joined: Posts: 147
    Hyenaboy wrote: »
    d3v wrote: »
    I believe the other part of it is that they want to create a fighting game where online play is the norm.
    Yikes.

    GGPO 3
  • c001357c001357 Time Wizard Joined: Posts: 577
    im hoping supers have variants as well since not having any would be boring
  • JohnGrimmJohnGrimm A.K.A. JohnXuandou Joined: Posts: 4,333
    Beginning to wonder if this game will even have Stick support. Since it sounds like its really taking its cues from MOBA keyboard layouts for executions.

    Don't be ridiculous, of course it's going to have stick support. It'll have whatever controller support, it's just not designed with any specific controller in mind. People have been saying it's a 6 button game, there's no reason they would go with a SF layout like that unless they expected people to want to play on sticks.
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  • tatakitataki misplaced Joined: Posts: 7,703
    c001357 wrote: »
    im hoping supers have variants as well since not having any would be boring

    It appears they don't. But they have the extra benefit of wasting time and letting your cooldowns restore.
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  • AurelianoAureliano Joined: Posts: 72
    The idea wasn't to make a game where first timers and veterans are on an even ground. The idea was to make a game that doesn't disgust new players with inputs they'd have to sit down for a decent amount of time to get into their muscle memory.

    A lot of the FGC just seems extremely removed from the outside world and doesn't seem to understand the reason why their genre doesnt have more traction among the more casual players, but it's not because fighting games are hard. I play with casual players all the time as part of my social activities, and I end up facing exactly the same situations everytime. People get frustrated and bored by street fighter or gg or blazblue because simply put they didn't grow up playing these arcade fighters and inputs are getting in the way of their enjoyment. It takes some investment to even learn how to access the most simple features of your character, and that's what's turning them off. The same kind of people get hella passionate and actually competitive about melee or smash 4, because half the game isn't closed to them and they can actually access all their options in an intuitive manner. That has value, because it opens the door for them suddendly turning their mind towards the strategic side of things. They immediately start using their moves more sparingly and intelligently than they do in street fighter, because they have confidence in their ability to execute a strategy - so their brainpower is focused on building that strategy.

    That has value, incredible value. People who do not get what's fantastic about smash's design might be fantastic players but are ultimately holding the genre back from touching a larger audience. I personally have no personal investment in doing half circle motions or shoryukens. I learned to do them, because I had to. But do I care for them ? Not really. They're just there, and sometimes I wish they weren't, but by now I am used to them. But you know what I see nearly every week ? I introduce some random game to people, and at some point I do a super from halfscreen to show them a cool animation without overwhelming them. They block it, they seem impressed for a second, and are happy to have blocked it. Then they turn me to me.

    "Wow, how did you do that ?"
    "Eh, it's quarter circle back, half circle forward and this button."

    And everytime, I have to see the light in their eyes die down. They give me an aknowledgement nod, pretend to try a couple times, and give up. They decide they'll play without it. Supers are cool, but will never be part of their strategy, simply because the input is needlessly stupid. They write it off as an "advanced" technique that's not for them. Which is retarded. The meter is there, why shouldn't they be able to use it without having to spend a good amount of time practicing this input ?

    I think people that defend these inputs make a mistake. The passion that people put into fighting games has nothing to do with inputs. Inputs are just kind of in the way, you take a bit of time to get used to them, then you can actually play the damn game, and put your brain on the strategy side of things. The fact that this step is needlessly long in arcade japanese fighting games exists for historical reasons, but not logical ones. And every rule of good game design contradicts the need for them.

    Complexity should be found in the parts where you put the pieces together, not in actually lifting the damn pieces.

    While I don't agree with some of the decisions that were made for Rising Thunder, I am very interested in seeing if it succeeds. I'll play it, because why not, Dauntless and Chel are cool and its reliance on netplay is interesting to me, someone who never had an actual community where he lived and had to turn to popular online games to get his fill.
  • JohnGrimmJohnGrimm A.K.A. JohnXuandou Joined: Posts: 4,333
    I'm probably the far extreme of this discussion in that I understand why casuals don't get into fighting games and I don't care. Frankly I have no time for people who can't be bothered to practice something. There are few motions in fighting games that are actually hard to do and with the current generation of input interpreters, there shouldn't be a reason why any input gives you trouble. People have a hard time with it because they refuse to work at it, and that's their prerogative, but I don't have to feel sorry for them either. I actually see plenty of merit for half circles and DP's to exist and when done correctly I am glad that they exist and are designed the way they are. SNK, for all the flak people give them about pretezel motions (which aren't even that hard in games beyond Fatal Fury) and other "obtuse" inputs, they have some of the smartest usage of half circle moves from any developer ever, and they manage to make a character's inputs give them a personality and influence gameplay in other ways than just toolset and move properties.

    That being said I'm not upset over anything Rising Thunder is doing in regards to the inputs and I have no problem with games like this existing. I'm curious how this game will turn out and hopefully it's good, because I really wouldn't mind having another fighter to sit down with. My only worry is that mashing is too viable of a tactic and low levels of strategy are rewarded with the easier inputs. You can lead a scrub to water, but sometimes you can't always make him drink (shoutouts to S-Kill). You can make all of these tools easy to access so people don't feel like they're left out, but that doesn't guarantee that they are going to start playing the game with critical thinking, and if the game allows them to do well or better than they would normally do with such tactics, I will personally be under the impression that the game has failed its purpose.
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  • HyenaboyHyenaboy Joined: Posts: 77
    @Aureliano
    I understand the concept, but I don't like how it's being marketed, mainly because it places normal fighting games on this giant plateau of difficulty that really isn't there. Also, that said:

    Today I played a bit of USF4 on Steam, and I picked Ryu. I've been practicing being primarily defensive and blocking people out, and was also thinking about this one-button-input concept. Then I realized...

    The concept of Ryu's shoryuken input is genius. When inputting the motion, if you do the motion properly (I have to because of the different games I play that don't have the shortcuts), you have to hit forward twice. This means that you have forgo blocking for a brief period of time in order to correctly input a move that is invincible and knocks your opponent down. Because of this brief period of vulnerability, I could get hit just throwing it out there late, so I'm required to think ahead and anticipate the actions of my opponent so I can buffer the move and then activate it when I see an opportunity. The SPD motion works in the same way, as the time it takes to input the throw and the requirement of making yourself vulnerable by releasing block compensates for the speed and unblockable nature of the throw.

    If you made the uppercut a single button input, then a player could feasibly just hold down back until the opponent threw out a button, and then be able to punish it without being made vulnerable. An SPD would also be incredibly strong because engaging a character with such a move up close would be terrifying. There would be less prediction necessary to make these moves work, and everything would be based on reaction. This is also the reason why similar moves that belong to charge characters require a charger to execute, because sonic boom or flash kick on a single button would be incredibly frustrating to fight against.
    The same concept goes for supers. Imagine ultimate killer head ram or rolling thunder on 1 button. The input exists to require some prediction and reaction on the part of the player to compensate for the power of the move. My main point is that they are not arbitrarily difficult like some people suggest.

    This basically means that the specials and supers in RT need to lack the power and properties of the moves in street fighter or other fighting games like blazblue. I'm also assuming that might be the real mindset behind the special move cooldowns in order to make your timing on one move count instead of just hitting uppercut every time your opponent does something. This isn't to say that I'm not interested in where the game goes, I just don't appreciate the journalism surrounding the game in general because it only furthers the concept that fighters = impossibly hard.
  • The_AdventurerThe_Adventurer Joined: Posts: 147
    I have a friend who played fighting games when he was younger, and when I try to play 'modern' fighters with him he looks at me blankly when I try to explain he has to push two buttons at the same time to execute a move. Let alone try to explain the motion timing on a move that requires a double rotation.
    There is a very real barrier here that the average human being has trouble with. Hell, it's taken me probably 10 years to become proficient in most fighting game concepts, I still struggle with B&B combos.
  • AurelianoAureliano Joined: Posts: 72
    RobAlister wrote: »
    Maybe you should preface it by saying it may be difficult for them to pull off, otherwise they might be expecting you to say it was one of the shoulder buttons or something simple like down, foward, B.
    I do, but the point is that I'm forced to answer them what amounts to "I can but you can't".
    That turns people off, because they don't understand. And I can't blame them, because the reasons are just not that strong.
    Hyenaboy wrote: »
    The concept of Ryu's shoryuken input is genius. When inputting the motion, if you do the motion properly (I have to because of the different games I play that don't have the shortcuts), you have to hit forward twice. This means that you have forgo blocking for a brief period of time in order to correctly input a move that is invincible and knocks your opponent down.
    Honestly ? People buffer that motion in between hits. The decision of pressing the last button is what triggers the shoryuken. I don't really see the difference once your level of execution is high enough, which is kind of my point here. That level of risk only exists because you don't have confidence in your ability to pull it off.
  • truendymiontruendymion Beer Me! Joined: Posts: 2,265
    edited July 2015
    People who are freaking out about this seem to think that Rising Thunder will replace Street Fighter which isn't going to happen. There's enough room for both games to exist. Just because one game challenges the status quo doesn't mean the status quo is going to disappear. Street Fighter isn't going anywhere.

    It just occurred to me that the cooldowns will be an effective way to limit combo loops and probably infinite combos.
    Post edited by truendymion on
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  • AsteriskBlueAsteriskBlue Joined: Posts: 765
    People who are freaking out about this seem to think that Rising Thunder will replace Street Fighter

    lol. No one in this thread thinks that.
    It's nice to meet you, too.
  • The_AdventurerThe_Adventurer Joined: Posts: 147
    Rising Thunder will not replace Street Fighter.

    The game that comes after Rising Thunder will be BIGGER then Street Fighter.
  • PSYCH0J0SHPSYCH0J0SH Joined: Posts: 5,469
    The game that comes after Rising Thunder will be BIGGER then Street Fighter.

    And its name is GigaMaidens!
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  • GespenstRitterGespenstRitter Ash to Ash Joined: Posts: 3,251
    I'm not overly-familiar with Phantom Breaker: Extra, but I believe that game also uses direction + special button for all of its special moves--with no quarter-circles and the like--and to my knowledge it doesn't have any cooldowns. So I'm not quite sure why Rising Thunder has them. How does it work out in Phantom Breaker?

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  • truendymiontruendymion Beer Me! Joined: Posts: 2,265
    I'm not overly-familiar with Phantom Breaker: Extra, but I believe that game also uses direction + special button for all of its special moves--with no quarter-circles and the like--and to my knowledge it doesn't have any cooldowns. So I'm not quite sure why Rising Thunder has them. How does it work out in Phantom Breaker?

    @keo-bas
    I mentioned before I think cool-downs will be an effective way to limit combo loops and probably infinite combos. This is an interesting alternative to gravity scaling (mk), pushback scaling (tekken), hitstun scaling (mvc), undizzy (skullgirls), knockout value (KI), juggle potential (sf) etc.
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  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 37,137 mod
    edited July 2015
    They don't strike me as something to stop infinites, since there's nothing inherent in the design that keeps players from juggling until the cooldown is finished. Seems more like a mechanic to keep players from mashing on one button specials to me.
  • AurelianoAureliano Joined: Posts: 72
    It gives an opportunity cost to using a special without necessarily tying that to recovery frames / meter consumption.

    Game seems to have a maximum amount of juggle hits you can go for too, it seems to display that counter during combos (I saw a 1/5).
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