Rising Thunder - FIGHTING ROBOTS

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  • tatakitataki misplaced Joined: Posts: 7,693
    In the Polygon video you can clearly see Chel doing several different version of the fireball. Each with different size and cooldown, and all with the same button. Either it's button+direction, or charge->release. The small fireball has no cooldown and can be spammed like classic Street Fighter.
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  • MajormelisThereMajormelisThere no labels Joined: Posts: 497
    Hyenaboy wrote: »
    Nope. Just beg devs for nerfs, and cooldowns on normals too so people don't "spam" them, or maybe you need to press every button at least once before you can press them again so you can show your skill with all the moves. Maybe if they hit a certain health deficit your buttons are locked so they can get a few hits in so new players can have a chance. No block button either apparently so that means that players have to block both high, low, and also block cross ups? A human brain can only think 50/50! They should just make a block button that blocks everything. And NO CHIP DAMAGE!

    Youre overreacting li. It'd be pretty ironic to create a game with accessibility in mind and include a mechanic that removes that.

    If there's wont thing I want out of this game is to at least make some interesting move sets (or adaptions to)revolving around the idea of single button press. Like maybe a character who can do rekkas in a order they want or a charge character that requires holding down a button for a charge. That's really, all I want.

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  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,100 mod
    Hyenaboy wrote: »
    Nope. Just beg devs for nerfs, and cooldowns on normals too so people don't "spam" them, or maybe you need to press every button at least once before you can press them again so you can show your skill with all the moves. Maybe if they hit a certain health deficit your buttons are locked so they can get a few hits in so new players can have a chance. No block button either apparently so that means that players have to block both high, low, and also block cross ups? A human brain can only think 50/50! They should just make a block button that blocks everything. And NO CHIP DAMAGE!
    Seth is probably the last guy who'd nerf stuff willy nilly.

    I mean, he's the guy who wrote this: http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/91151/on-cheapness
    You can't ask for well-thought-out changes off day 1, week 1, or mostly even month 1 play...and that's when the game is out and everyone's in the lab.
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  • truendymiontruendymion Beer Me! Joined: Posts: 2,198
    edited July 2015
    Looks and sounds like an awesome game. Im curious about the input for throws and supers.
  • AsteriskBlueAsteriskBlue Joined: Posts: 759
    I get you hyenaboy. I am also tired of this myth about SF being crazy complicated. As some who plasys both smash and SF, I also agree that its definitely not quarter circles that keeps people from learning more about FG's.

    Any way, Ill give it shot because the cast is interesting but..... in the gamespot interview they seem pretty adamant about not having offline multiplayer. I can't imagine why and they didn't explain. Seems silly to me.
    It's nice to meet you, too.
  • The_AdventurerThe_Adventurer Joined: Posts: 147
    edited July 2015
    This game sounds really interesting. Especially mechicly. Being to customize move layouts is also much cooler then I expected. I really hope I get into the alpha.
    Looks and sounds like an awesome game. Im curious about the input for throws and supers.

    I'd guess supers would be all three specials pressed at once. Maybe throws all normals?

    Edit: no local multiplayer. That's kind of weird But it does explain why you only see cooldown meters for only one player in the videos. I wonder if knowing your opponents cool downs is too much information. But you would think that information could be learned through experience.
  • truendymiontruendymion Beer Me! Joined: Posts: 2,198
    edited July 2015
    According to Gamespot supers are mapped to a single button, Tom Cannon mentioned he had it mapped to Spacebar.

    And yeah Online only sounds shitty. I won't ever be able to play with my wife :/

    If cooldowns is TMI why not hide the opponents life and super bars while you're at it?
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,100 mod
    It's online only because the way some of the moves are designed won't work in a situation where players are sharing a screen - for example, I believe one of the articles mentioning something about a move that makes you invisible, only on your opponents screen.
    You can't ask for well-thought-out changes off day 1, week 1, or mostly even month 1 play...and that's when the game is out and everyone's in the lab.
    -Mike_Z

    If there's anything we do best, it's breaking games and then making everyone suffer with all the cheapness.
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  • truendymiontruendymion Beer Me! Joined: Posts: 2,198
    Yea thats cool. But if the tradeoff is no samescreen play then im not sure its worth it...
  • The_AdventurerThe_Adventurer Joined: Posts: 147
    edited July 2015
    d3v wrote: »
    It's online only because the way some of the moves are designed won't work in a situation where players are sharing a screen - for example, I believe one of the articles mentioning something about a move that makes you invisible, only on your opponents screen.

    While that's certainly one way to make mostly previously useless invisible fighting game moves work. But it does seem kind of odd. I was looking forward to getting a friend of mine to play with me, but he's got no PC.

    Its not unworkable to have competitive tourneys simply have two PCs and two screens for head to head (and the mind games you can have without being side by side with your opponent might be interesting), but it does seem kind of clunky for a game being pushed as 'accessible'.



    Beginning to wonder if this game will even have Stick support. Since it sounds like its really taking its cues from MOBA keyboard layouts for executions.
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,100 mod
    d3v wrote: »
    It's online only because the way some of the moves are designed won't work in a situation where players are sharing a screen - for example, I believe one of the articles mentioning something about a move that makes you invisible, only on your opponents screen.

    While that's certainly one way to make mostly previously useless invisible fighting game moves work. But it does seem kind of odd. I was looking forward to getting a friend of mine to play with me, but he's got no PC.

    Its not unworkable to have competitive tourneys simply have two PCs and two screens for head to head (and the mind games you can have without being side by side with your opponent might be interesting), but it does seem kind of clunky for a game being pushed as 'accessible'.
    I believe the other part of it is that they want to create a fighting game where online play is the norm.
    You can't ask for well-thought-out changes off day 1, week 1, or mostly even month 1 play...and that's when the game is out and everyone's in the lab.
    -Mike_Z

    If there's anything we do best, it's breaking games and then making everyone suffer with all the cheapness.
    -PersiaXO
  • HyenaboyHyenaboy Joined: Posts: 77
    d3v wrote: »
    I believe the other part of it is that they want to create a fighting game where online play is the norm.
    Yikes.
  • The_AdventurerThe_Adventurer Joined: Posts: 147
    Hyenaboy wrote: »
    d3v wrote: »
    I believe the other part of it is that they want to create a fighting game where online play is the norm.
    Yikes.

    GGPO 3
  • c001357c001357 Time Wizard Joined: Posts: 577
    im hoping supers have variants as well since not having any would be boring
  • JohnGrimmJohnGrimm A.K.A. JohnXuandou Joined: Posts: 4,327
    Beginning to wonder if this game will even have Stick support. Since it sounds like its really taking its cues from MOBA keyboard layouts for executions.

    Don't be ridiculous, of course it's going to have stick support. It'll have whatever controller support, it's just not designed with any specific controller in mind. People have been saying it's a 6 button game, there's no reason they would go with a SF layout like that unless they expected people to want to play on sticks.
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  • tatakitataki misplaced Joined: Posts: 7,693
    c001357 wrote: »
    im hoping supers have variants as well since not having any would be boring

    It appears they don't. But they have the extra benefit of wasting time and letting your cooldowns restore.
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  • AurelianoAureliano Joined: Posts: 71
    The idea wasn't to make a game where first timers and veterans are on an even ground. The idea was to make a game that doesn't disgust new players with inputs they'd have to sit down for a decent amount of time to get into their muscle memory.

    A lot of the FGC just seems extremely removed from the outside world and doesn't seem to understand the reason why their genre doesnt have more traction among the more casual players, but it's not because fighting games are hard. I play with casual players all the time as part of my social activities, and I end up facing exactly the same situations everytime. People get frustrated and bored by street fighter or gg or blazblue because simply put they didn't grow up playing these arcade fighters and inputs are getting in the way of their enjoyment. It takes some investment to even learn how to access the most simple features of your character, and that's what's turning them off. The same kind of people get hella passionate and actually competitive about melee or smash 4, because half the game isn't closed to them and they can actually access all their options in an intuitive manner. That has value, because it opens the door for them suddendly turning their mind towards the strategic side of things. They immediately start using their moves more sparingly and intelligently than they do in street fighter, because they have confidence in their ability to execute a strategy - so their brainpower is focused on building that strategy.

    That has value, incredible value. People who do not get what's fantastic about smash's design might be fantastic players but are ultimately holding the genre back from touching a larger audience. I personally have no personal investment in doing half circle motions or shoryukens. I learned to do them, because I had to. But do I care for them ? Not really. They're just there, and sometimes I wish they weren't, but by now I am used to them. But you know what I see nearly every week ? I introduce some random game to people, and at some point I do a super from halfscreen to show them a cool animation without overwhelming them. They block it, they seem impressed for a second, and are happy to have blocked it. Then they turn me to me.

    "Wow, how did you do that ?"
    "Eh, it's quarter circle back, half circle forward and this button."

    And everytime, I have to see the light in their eyes die down. They give me an aknowledgement nod, pretend to try a couple times, and give up. They decide they'll play without it. Supers are cool, but will never be part of their strategy, simply because the input is needlessly stupid. They write it off as an "advanced" technique that's not for them. Which is retarded. The meter is there, why shouldn't they be able to use it without having to spend a good amount of time practicing this input ?

    I think people that defend these inputs make a mistake. The passion that people put into fighting games has nothing to do with inputs. Inputs are just kind of in the way, you take a bit of time to get used to them, then you can actually play the damn game, and put your brain on the strategy side of things. The fact that this step is needlessly long in arcade japanese fighting games exists for historical reasons, but not logical ones. And every rule of good game design contradicts the need for them.

    Complexity should be found in the parts where you put the pieces together, not in actually lifting the damn pieces.

    While I don't agree with some of the decisions that were made for Rising Thunder, I am very interested in seeing if it succeeds. I'll play it, because why not, Dauntless and Chel are cool and its reliance on netplay is interesting to me, someone who never had an actual community where he lived and had to turn to popular online games to get his fill.
  • JohnGrimmJohnGrimm A.K.A. JohnXuandou Joined: Posts: 4,327
    I'm probably the far extreme of this discussion in that I understand why casuals don't get into fighting games and I don't care. Frankly I have no time for people who can't be bothered to practice something. There are few motions in fighting games that are actually hard to do and with the current generation of input interpreters, there shouldn't be a reason why any input gives you trouble. People have a hard time with it because they refuse to work at it, and that's their prerogative, but I don't have to feel sorry for them either. I actually see plenty of merit for half circles and DP's to exist and when done correctly I am glad that they exist and are designed the way they are. SNK, for all the flak people give them about pretezel motions (which aren't even that hard in games beyond Fatal Fury) and other "obtuse" inputs, they have some of the smartest usage of half circle moves from any developer ever, and they manage to make a character's inputs give them a personality and influence gameplay in other ways than just toolset and move properties.

    That being said I'm not upset over anything Rising Thunder is doing in regards to the inputs and I have no problem with games like this existing. I'm curious how this game will turn out and hopefully it's good, because I really wouldn't mind having another fighter to sit down with. My only worry is that mashing is too viable of a tactic and low levels of strategy are rewarded with the easier inputs. You can lead a scrub to water, but sometimes you can't always make him drink (shoutouts to S-Kill). You can make all of these tools easy to access so people don't feel like they're left out, but that doesn't guarantee that they are going to start playing the game with critical thinking, and if the game allows them to do well or better than they would normally do with such tactics, I will personally be under the impression that the game has failed its purpose.
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  • HyenaboyHyenaboy Joined: Posts: 77
    @Aureliano
    I understand the concept, but I don't like how it's being marketed, mainly because it places normal fighting games on this giant plateau of difficulty that really isn't there. Also, that said:

    Today I played a bit of USF4 on Steam, and I picked Ryu. I've been practicing being primarily defensive and blocking people out, and was also thinking about this one-button-input concept. Then I realized...

    The concept of Ryu's shoryuken input is genius. When inputting the motion, if you do the motion properly (I have to because of the different games I play that don't have the shortcuts), you have to hit forward twice. This means that you have forgo blocking for a brief period of time in order to correctly input a move that is invincible and knocks your opponent down. Because of this brief period of vulnerability, I could get hit just throwing it out there late, so I'm required to think ahead and anticipate the actions of my opponent so I can buffer the move and then activate it when I see an opportunity. The SPD motion works in the same way, as the time it takes to input the throw and the requirement of making yourself vulnerable by releasing block compensates for the speed and unblockable nature of the throw.

    If you made the uppercut a single button input, then a player could feasibly just hold down back until the opponent threw out a button, and then be able to punish it without being made vulnerable. An SPD would also be incredibly strong because engaging a character with such a move up close would be terrifying. There would be less prediction necessary to make these moves work, and everything would be based on reaction. This is also the reason why similar moves that belong to charge characters require a charger to execute, because sonic boom or flash kick on a single button would be incredibly frustrating to fight against.
    The same concept goes for supers. Imagine ultimate killer head ram or rolling thunder on 1 button. The input exists to require some prediction and reaction on the part of the player to compensate for the power of the move. My main point is that they are not arbitrarily difficult like some people suggest.

    This basically means that the specials and supers in RT need to lack the power and properties of the moves in street fighter or other fighting games like blazblue. I'm also assuming that might be the real mindset behind the special move cooldowns in order to make your timing on one move count instead of just hitting uppercut every time your opponent does something. This isn't to say that I'm not interested in where the game goes, I just don't appreciate the journalism surrounding the game in general because it only furthers the concept that fighters = impossibly hard.
  • The_AdventurerThe_Adventurer Joined: Posts: 147
    I have a friend who played fighting games when he was younger, and when I try to play 'modern' fighters with him he looks at me blankly when I try to explain he has to push two buttons at the same time to execute a move. Let alone try to explain the motion timing on a move that requires a double rotation.
    There is a very real barrier here that the average human being has trouble with. Hell, it's taken me probably 10 years to become proficient in most fighting game concepts, I still struggle with B&B combos.
  • AurelianoAureliano Joined: Posts: 71
    RobAlister wrote: »
    Maybe you should preface it by saying it may be difficult for them to pull off, otherwise they might be expecting you to say it was one of the shoulder buttons or something simple like down, foward, B.
    I do, but the point is that I'm forced to answer them what amounts to "I can but you can't".
    That turns people off, because they don't understand. And I can't blame them, because the reasons are just not that strong.
    Hyenaboy wrote: »
    The concept of Ryu's shoryuken input is genius. When inputting the motion, if you do the motion properly (I have to because of the different games I play that don't have the shortcuts), you have to hit forward twice. This means that you have forgo blocking for a brief period of time in order to correctly input a move that is invincible and knocks your opponent down.
    Honestly ? People buffer that motion in between hits. The decision of pressing the last button is what triggers the shoryuken. I don't really see the difference once your level of execution is high enough, which is kind of my point here. That level of risk only exists because you don't have confidence in your ability to pull it off.
  • truendymiontruendymion Beer Me! Joined: Posts: 2,198
    edited July 2015
    People who are freaking out about this seem to think that Rising Thunder will replace Street Fighter which isn't going to happen. There's enough room for both games to exist. Just because one game challenges the status quo doesn't mean the status quo is going to disappear. Street Fighter isn't going anywhere.

    It just occurred to me that the cooldowns will be an effective way to limit combo loops and probably infinite combos.
    Post edited by truendymion on
  • AsteriskBlueAsteriskBlue Joined: Posts: 759
    People who are freaking out about this seem to think that Rising Thunder will replace Street Fighter

    lol. No one in this thread thinks that.
    It's nice to meet you, too.
  • The_AdventurerThe_Adventurer Joined: Posts: 147
    Rising Thunder will not replace Street Fighter.

    The game that comes after Rising Thunder will be BIGGER then Street Fighter.
  • PSYCH0J0SHPSYCH0J0SH Joined: Posts: 5,469
    The game that comes after Rising Thunder will be BIGGER then Street Fighter.

    And its name is GigaMaidens!
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  • GespenstRitterGespenstRitter The World's Strongest Joined: Posts: 3,161
    I'm not overly-familiar with Phantom Breaker: Extra, but I believe that game also uses direction + special button for all of its special moves--with no quarter-circles and the like--and to my knowledge it doesn't have any cooldowns. So I'm not quite sure why Rising Thunder has them. How does it work out in Phantom Breaker?

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  • truendymiontruendymion Beer Me! Joined: Posts: 2,198
    I'm not overly-familiar with Phantom Breaker: Extra, but I believe that game also uses direction + special button for all of its special moves--with no quarter-circles and the like--and to my knowledge it doesn't have any cooldowns. So I'm not quite sure why Rising Thunder has them. How does it work out in Phantom Breaker?

    @keo-bas
    I mentioned before I think cool-downs will be an effective way to limit combo loops and probably infinite combos. This is an interesting alternative to gravity scaling (mk), pushback scaling (tekken), hitstun scaling (mvc), undizzy (skullgirls), knockout value (KI), juggle potential (sf) etc.
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,100 mod
    edited July 2015
    They don't strike me as something to stop infinites, since there's nothing inherent in the design that keeps players from juggling until the cooldown is finished. Seems more like a mechanic to keep players from mashing on one button specials to me.
    You can't ask for well-thought-out changes off day 1, week 1, or mostly even month 1 play...and that's when the game is out and everyone's in the lab.
    -Mike_Z

    If there's anything we do best, it's breaking games and then making everyone suffer with all the cheapness.
    -PersiaXO
  • AurelianoAureliano Joined: Posts: 71
    It gives an opportunity cost to using a special without necessarily tying that to recovery frames / meter consumption.

    Game seems to have a maximum amount of juggle hits you can go for too, it seems to display that counter during combos (I saw a 1/5).
  • JohnGrimmJohnGrimm A.K.A. JohnXuandou Joined: Posts: 4,327
    d3v wrote: »
    They don't strike me as something to stop infinites, since there's nothing inherent in the design that keeps players from juggling until the cooldown is finished. Seems more like a mechanic to keep players from mashing on one button specials to me.

    Let me throw a theoretical at you. One character has a special move that they can use that is frame advantage and you can link off of it, and it keeps your opponent grounded. With cooldowns, this is no problem. You can do it once to extend a combo and then you need to do something else. No cooldowns however, and you can do it forever or extend your ground series a lot longer.

    Also, there is something keeping you from juggling until the cool down is finished. There appears to be a 5 hit juggle limit. Watch the footage again, right under the combo counter when someone gets launched there's a 1/5 counter. That's another thing, in a lot of games you can juggle with a single move over and over again to get max damage like Hugo clap for instance. With a cool down timer, your juggles CANNOT be a single move over and over again to maximize damage, it kinda forces some creativity in you.
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  • tatakitataki misplaced Joined: Posts: 7,693
    edited July 2015
    Post edited by tataki on
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  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,100 mod
    JohnGrimm wrote: »
    d3v wrote: »
    They don't strike me as something to stop infinites, since there's nothing inherent in the design that keeps players from juggling until the cooldown is finished. Seems more like a mechanic to keep players from mashing on one button specials to me.

    Let me throw a theoretical at you. One character has a special move that they can use that is frame advantage and you can link off of it, and it keeps your opponent grounded. With cooldowns, this is no problem. You can do it once to extend a combo and then you need to do something else. No cooldowns however, and you can do it forever or extend your ground series a lot longer.

    Also, there is something keeping you from juggling until the cool down is finished. There appears to be a 5 hit juggle limit. Watch the footage again, right under the combo counter when someone gets launched there's a 1/5 counter. That's another thing, in a lot of games you can juggle with a single move over and over again to get max damage like Hugo clap for instance. With a cool down timer, your juggles CANNOT be a single move over and over again to maximize damage, it kinda forces some creativity in you.

    In that case, everything stopping it from being an infinite is just tied to the moves properties. There's nothing inherrent in the system that prevents the move from being used in an infinite if a way to get around the cool down is found. It's not a true combo limiting system in the way that 3S juggle limit, Skullgirls IPS, etc. are.
    You can't ask for well-thought-out changes off day 1, week 1, or mostly even month 1 play...and that's when the game is out and everyone's in the lab.
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  • tatakitataki misplaced Joined: Posts: 7,693
    The game has a 5 hit juggle limit, and only 2 roman cancels...
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  • tatakitataki misplaced Joined: Posts: 7,693
    Updated the aforementioned guide with details about the roman cancel system.
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  • PaniniKillPaniniKill Joined: Posts: 28
    Hyenaboy wrote: »
    My point is that if experienced FG players pick it up seriously, the casuals are still going to get bodied, so this idea that execution is what is holding them back is not the whole story.

    I think what it mostly comes down to is that until your execution of all your character's tools is somewhat reliable, you don't even get an opportunity to meaningfully experience the rest of what a game is about. And taking out special inputs removes a step in the process that a lot of brand new players end up having to kind of get stuck on and spend a boring amount of time with.

    There's a lot of different things you need to level up at to be good at a given game, and there's a worthwhile distinction to be made between them. There's work in the form of time spent in training mode practicing pulling off tech, work in the form of learning basically rote information (what's your frame advantage after blocking a particular move, what's your optimal combo after a certain confirm, etc.), and work in the form of improving your strategies and habits.

    The first two of those amount to basically homework that you sit and do by yourself that I think a lot of people (reasonably) find boring. The third of those happens by actually playing matches, which makes it kind of inherently the most fun part of getting good at a game.

    If you can decrease the amount of time people have to spend with the other two things, I think you'll decrease the level of patience and dedication a player needs to start getting decent at your game, and I don't think that's a bad thing to shoot for as a game designer. It will still require a lot of patience and dedication for someone to stay truly competitive, but for most fighting games the level of patience and dedication it requires to get to the point where you're even playing the same game as a decent player is massive, and I think lowering that bar somewhat can make room for more people, especially people from other competitive game scenes, to get into fighting games more easily and get to experience the parts of the game that make them actually interesting.

    That mostly applies if the overall execution barrier is lower in this game, though, which removing special move inputs doesn't inherently accomplish. Smash for example doesn't have any joystick motions for moves but that doesn't stop Melee and Project M from having way harder execution than a lot of games that do.

    But removing special move inputs, even if the execution in your game ends up being as hard as any other game, can at least increase the number of people who feel like they can actually play, as I think is exemplified by how many more people play Smash casually than other fighters. So it might at least get more people playing the game if nothing else.
  • HyenaboyHyenaboy Joined: Posts: 77
    We're running in circles with this idea, so refer to my previous posts. I feel bad that I've occupied so much space here, so I wanna keep this thread mainly about updates to the game rather than arguing over input philosophy. If people really feel so strongly about it, I'd be happy to bring it up in another thread, but I want to focus on the game itself now.

    I like the Roman Cancel concept. I hope it allows for some fireball > RC > cross up shenanigans or combos out of uppercut. I'm assuming it works like Ken's v-trigger in SFV where you cancel into a run out of recovery frames. I worry about the concept that variations unlock over time, because some of the better variations will be hidden behind that playwall and make it difficult for players new to a character or to the game. They should all be available from the start as a default.

    Any word on the system requirements yet? I'm thinking about playing the slutty one.
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,100 mod
    tataki wrote: »
    The game has a 5 hit juggle limit, and only 2 roman cancels...
    Was replying to the posts about cooldowns being a sort of system wide combo limiting tool. Not anything about the system itself.
    You can't ask for well-thought-out changes off day 1, week 1, or mostly even month 1 play...and that's when the game is out and everyone's in the lab.
    -Mike_Z

    If there's anything we do best, it's breaking games and then making everyone suffer with all the cheapness.
    -PersiaXO
  • truendymiontruendymion Beer Me! Joined: Posts: 2,198
    tataki wrote: »
    c001357 wrote: »
    im hoping supers have variants as well since not having any would be boring

    It appears they don't. But they have the extra benefit of wasting time and letting your cooldowns restore.

    I saw a slot for super on the results screen although there werent any alternate supers listed. Maybe thats something they plan on adding in the future.
  • emmiDemmiD Joined: Posts: 1
    Coming from a 3S player, I really love what this game is trying to achieve. Execution does not teach you how to properly use a move. Using the move in the right situations does. Removing the execution allows people to use the move more often and see the benefits and consequences quickly and clearly, rather than focusing on the move itself. Once you understand WHY and WHEN to do special moves, moving onto another game is just the matter of replacing that one button with a series of inputs. The people that found that too hard are usually people that have NEVER played a traditional fighting game in their life or don't have the MUSCLE MEMORY nor COMMITMENT to actually LEARN them JUST TO PLAY THE GAME. Honestly, even if there are people who find it difficult to do a z motion (which I wholeheartedly admit is difficult for a beginner using a fightstick or pad), that should not be a reason to not allow them the experience of playing a fighting game at their full potential where execution is not an issue. Another thing to note is that I started playing on a keyboard where execution is easy for an avid user. Moving onto a fightstick was really difficult for my left hand. But its because I already knew how to play the game that I was able to invest in a fightstick and put the time in to perfect my execution. At that time, its not about learning the game anymore, its JUST execution only. Learning HOW to play a fighting game WHILE learning to execute moves is difficult and thats what turns most people away from the genre and explains the success of LoL and Smash. I daresay if you're good at this game, you'll know how to play most traditional fighters. Rather than being stuck not knowing WHAT to do, players that trasition to other fighting games will just ask HOW to do them. Instead of asking themselves should I dp or tatsu in this situation, it becomes I DEFINITELY need to dp here, but HOW. In the first case, the player doesnt have any clue on what to do and will probably end up mashing buttons or throwing out the move he knows rather than the move he needs. In the second case, the fundamentals are there and only the execution is missing. In fact, the second case is where most people that play fighting game stand. They UNDERSTAND the game, so the only thing they have to do is build their execution when they switch to other ones and this is the most important thing that people that play fighting games have. More importantly, most people can't just plow through training sessions just to play a game. Its like sitting through 30 minutes of credits to watch a movie you've never seen before, but people that have already seen the movie know its worth the wait. Theres a reason why the fighting game community is so small compared to other games/genres. If nothing is done to stop it, fighting games will eventually die out, just like darkstalkers. We need to attract new blood into the scene. The only thing this game needs is a parry mechanic which revolves around prediction and timing to add an extra layer of depth, rather than memorizing inputs, which would allow another level for people to strive for beyond yomi and fundamentals and who are willing enough to put that extra effort in to up their game. Most people that practice combos and links do so because they like the feeling of putting more effort than others and being rewarded in return. A parry mechanic would be just the thing to satisfy combo fiends and execution maniacs (me being one of them). Maybe using parries to reduce cooldowns on moves? It would also lessen the guilt some people would have playing a fighting game that doesn't require the same commitment to be on the same playing field as pros, while staying within their design philosophy of focusing on the game, fundamentals, and yomi rather than the inputs. It would also be a nice way to seperate itself from the pack while allowing it to stand on its own rather than just being a gateway to other fighting games. Afterall, the ability to generate hype is essential and parries are the easiest way to do that and allow for unexpected comebacks. Though, I don't think the software is built that flexible to add a new feature such as this, a man can dream. Great idea overall and you can expect me to play the alpha!
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,100 mod
    This does not deserve its own thread. Merging.
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  • truendymiontruendymion Beer Me! Joined: Posts: 2,198
    edited July 2015
    I feel like Supers should exempt from the juggle limit. Also multi-hitting special moves should maybe only count as 1 point against the juggle limit. Not sure if that would break the game or not yet lol.
  • ukyo_rulzukyo_rulz Joined: Posts: 4,476
    Hyenaboy wrote: »
    Casual players can't compete with pros because of their mindset, not because of the difficulty of the inputs.

    So there's no downside to easy inputs?
    "Being degrading or insulting is not the same as being hype." - Mike Z
  • JohnGrimmJohnGrimm A.K.A. JohnXuandou Joined: Posts: 4,327
    d3v wrote: »
    tataki wrote: »
    The game has a 5 hit juggle limit, and only 2 roman cancels...
    Was replying to the posts about cooldowns being a sort of system wide combo limiting tool. Not anything about the system itself.

    It's unreasonable to look at one mechanic in a vacuum, you need to look at the systems as a whole and how one affects the other. Obviously the cooldown system is doing multiple jobs, but it's doing a lot more than just preventing spam. If it was just preventing spam, you wouldn't need to make cooldowns longer than about 2 seconds, however:

    http://backlogadventures.com/2015/07/21/risingthunderalpha/
    Specials like projectiles have a short cooldown, while moves that have priority or juggling properties can go on as much as a 6 second cooldown.

    The cooldown system is clearly being used as a means to limit combo capabilities. Even if it was just stopping you from juggling with the same move over and over again, which you wouldn't even need this quote to figure out was a thing, it's still limiting what your combo options are. And no, juggle until the cooldown wears off is not an answer, because as stated, you have a 5 hit juggle limit, which stops you from doing that to a great degree, and you're still not allowed to juggle the same move over and over again like you are capable of doing in other games.
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  • NaerasNaeras Terribad Joined: Posts: 3,323
    So, the game is trying to make specials and stuff really easy? Cool, outside of Smash there's not a lot of games that do that, so it'll be interesting to see how it turns out. Maybe I'll have something to play with my friends again.
    ukyo_rulz wrote: »
    So there's no downside to easy inputs?
    I know the question is rhetorical, but I'll answer anyways: yes, there is definitely a downside. It's way easier to whiff punish / go through fireballs with supers in NRS-games (or even SFxT) compared to something with more difficult motion supers, and it removes some interesting interactions ("He's buffering his ultra predicting a fireball. Cool, I'll sweep him since he's not blocking"). It also makes it more difficult to screw up on defense because you don't risk mistiming your DP and being hit during a non-blocking motion (and it also makes DP mashing easier =V ).
    Then there's the whole "if all the moves are easy and everyone does them the game becomes boring"-sentiment that I don't agree with at all, but it's not an invalid opinion.

    Still, having simple inputs could work out well in this game. It could also be completely terrible. Depends a lot on how the game turns out.
  • tatakitataki misplaced Joined: Posts: 7,693
    tataki wrote: »
    c001357 wrote: »
    im hoping supers have variants as well since not having any would be boring

    It appears they don't. But they have the extra benefit of wasting time and letting your cooldowns restore.

    I saw a slot for super on the results screen although there werent any alternate supers listed. Maybe thats something they plan on adding in the future.
    source?
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  • Raging_ZoroarkRaging_Zoroark Disgraceful! Joined: Posts: 1,392
    Funny enough, I have a friend that loves fighting games, but only plays single player modes (a.k.a. casual player). And he haves the opinion that fighting games shouldn't have 1 button specials/supers, because "powerful moves should require work or the game would be too easy". While he can be a bit mistaken on that sentence, it's really interesting the fact that someone that really doesn't care about competition is defending execution barriers.

    For me, getting rid of DP, QCF, 360's, etc just to make the game more acessible is dumb. It's possible to make a good game without these inputs but you have to be very careful for the game don't turn into unplayable shit (have anyone ever played Super Street Fighter 4 for 3DS?). The only execution barrier that isn't needed are 1 frame links and everything else that makes BnBs needlessly hard to do (combos should be the easy part in a fighter).

    Also, new players need to realize that training mode doesn't hurt. Just listen your favorite songs or talk with your friends on skype while you practice your combos and time will pass without you noticing.
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  • ilitiritilitirit Joined: Posts: 6,381
    I don't like the massive amounts of impact freeze.

    As for the execution vs strategy argument, I don't really care as long as the game doesn't get in my way. I mean, look at Melty Blood. That game has super easy execution. To the point why I often get mistaken inputs because the system is too lax. Same as in Xrd. I don't know how many times I get accidental Secret Garden with Millia when I wanted something else. In SFIV with Blanka, I try to go from crouch block into walking electricity, and then I get LP ball. In cases like these, the easier execution makes it harder for me to play the game. I'd rather learn to play without an easy input system, than learn to play around it.
  • HyenaboyHyenaboy Joined: Posts: 77
    emmiD wrote: »
    If nothing is done to stop it, fighting games will eventually die out, just like darkstalkers.
    No they won't.
    ukyo_rulz wrote: »
    Hyenaboy wrote: »
    Casual players can't compete with pros because of their mindset, not because of the difficulty of the inputs.

    So there's no downside to easy inputs?
    Yes there is, in that the moves must lose total overall power to compensate for input speed and consistency. A move like Ultimate Killer Head Ram should not be a one button input.
  • CynicalCynical Joined: Posts: 27
    ukyo_rulz wrote: »
    So there's no downside to easy inputs?
    Balance isn't everything. Wiggling the stick around to get special moves is fun. Doing Shen BnBs (or something similar) where you do repeated QCB/QCF motions to make the guy on-screen do wild haymakers creates more of a connection to what you're doing physically and what's happening on screen than just hitting buttons would.
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