UMvC3 was handled atrociously this year

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  • FrostyAUFrostyAU Lynx in your sinks Joined: Posts: 8,313
    There are the odd bad egg, but that stuff follows people around. They want to turn themselves into a character, they'll be judged as one and they'll eventually realize their mistake. All sports have heroes and villains, I don't think the solution to some shit players is to put up padded walls around everything so that no ones fragile sensibilities get hurt. Let them blow up, deal with it maturely and the real story isn't their blow up, it's how well the community handled a scumbag that wants to take a piss on everyone else.

    Again though, they're the minority, most players are decent, if they were not nobody would want to be a part of the community. People like that don't need a mic if they somehow win to leave a stain either, there needs to be a better solution than childproofing the FGCs biggest crowning moment at the expense of others.
  • SoVi3tSoVi3t Behind The Iron Curtain Joined: Posts: 29,170
    edited July 2015
    I think they should have allowed players to each choose one legit weapon to use against their opponent, to make it more exciting. I've only played him a handful of times, but I think Justin Wong would be hard to play when he is using Zero with 5 bars, and is wielding nunchucks in real life against me. Especially because I would be stupid and bring a hockey stick. But I can't barrel roll like him :(
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  • PreppyPreppy act like you're used to it Joined: Posts: 14,168 admin
    Ramrod wrote: »
    EVO has been doing this for almost two decades now and what happened this weekend was laughably indefensible. The amount of stream down time for NO reason combined with all of the marquee matchups happening off stream basically killed the tournament.
    I can't take anyone claiming that this doesn't happen every year seriously. The only reason you noticed this year was because it involved people you cared about. This happens every year.

    http://zachd.com/mvc2 : My giant archive of fighting game videos, centered around MvC2.
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  • RamrodRamrod P.G. Joined: Posts: 406
    Preppy wrote: »
    Ramrod wrote: »
    EVO has been doing this for almost two decades now and what happened this weekend was laughably indefensible. The amount of stream down time for NO reason combined with all of the marquee matchups happening off stream basically killed the tournament.
    I can't take anyone claiming that this doesn't happen every year seriously. The only reason you noticed this year was because it involved people you cared about. This happens every year.

    It does not happen on this level every year, hence the outrage. It happened somewhat close to this level last year, which makes this year even MORE indefensible. No, this was not the average run of the mill "some great matches happened off stream". To pretend that it was betrays such gross willful ignorance that I can only laugh and shake my head.
  • PreppyPreppy act like you're used to it Joined: Posts: 14,168 admin
    edited July 2015
    Yeah, I've probably never been to Evo and probably have no sense of history here, and probably further never started filming in the first place to solve this exact problem. Probably no other matches at Evo have ever been this epic or great as those. Many of which were recorded by the excellent MrBGuy as seen here:
    * http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/comment/10315112/#Comment_10315112

    However, that's all water under the bridge.

    Howdy! I'm Preppy. I'm a random dude who likes helping tournaments run smoothly and filming things. If you're interested in being part of a film crew I might be putting together for Evo2k16, lemme know. Or if you just think you have God's Divine Opinion on streamable matches and matches that should be recorded, come be a whisperer in my ear and we'll see what we can do there. Let's proactively solve the problems here. Evo is a monstrosity, and it's going to have rough and super-rough edges. Let's all work together to make things better. Figuring out ways we can record all "key" matches, for example, shouldn't be too hard.

    http://zachd.com/mvc2 : My giant archive of fighting game videos, centered around MvC2.
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  • RamrodRamrod P.G. Joined: Posts: 406
    Recording matches is not the answer. This is 2015. We are beyond that. This is about streaming a live event. What happened this year was indefensible. It was a complete failure on the part of the people running the Marvel brackets, the streamers, and the TO leadership. Only a public outcry can hope to change things.
  • ryu-biryu-bi Come Back... Joined: Posts: 539
    If KBR wanted a mic and was denied by Wiz, could he just run off to the stream mic and do his speech there?
    I pick number 7
  • bbgunrenegadebbgunrenegade Joined: Posts: 2
    Marvel was run very poorly and I'm glad someone brought this up. Players I had never heard of were on the stream while Justin Wong was being eliminated by Chris G off stream. I know it must be difficult to run a tournament of this size but you need to step up to the challenge.
  • Xr0s-upXr0s-up Go banana! Joined: Posts: 1,138
    Why? Have someone new on stream and let em show you their stuff

    I've seen Justin and Chris G on stream numerous times
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  • YorKeYYorKeY Suffer like G did... Joined: Posts: 7,266
    I thought Marvel was boring, grand finals, i couldn't even get through them, this year SF4 was about all i liked, Melee was okay.
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  • RamrodRamrod P.G. Joined: Posts: 406
    Preppy wrote: »
    PS: And please continue to know that I think anybody claiming that previous Evos didn't have incredibly awesome matches not filmed is batshit insane.

    Literally no one has said this. We have gone through pains to say the OPPOSITE. You are fighting a straw man. Literally every reply of mine in this thread has included the fact that "Of course there are awesome hype matches that happen off stream at every EVO." - THAT IS NOT THE ISSUE.
  • RamrodRamrod P.G. Joined: Posts: 406
    edited July 2015
    Preppy, I think this guy has been to a few Evo's:


  • RamrodRamrod P.G. Joined: Posts: 406
    edited July 2015
    Pertho wrote: »
    Ramrod wrote: »
    It does not happen on this level every year, hence the outrage. It happened somewhat close to this level last year, which makes this year even MORE indefensible. No, this was not the average run of the mill "some great matches happened off stream". To pretend that it was betrays such gross willful ignorance that I can only laugh and shake my head.

    Last year Daigo was eliminated off stream. He had a match up with John Choi that didn't happen on stream over Sako vs Marq Teddy. Then Daigo vs Filipino champ also happened off stream. Understand that there are a lot of good players playing good players. On the other hand we got to see Kane beat Wong, Valle beat bonchan and other random shit.

    Were 3 of the 8 matches to get into top 8 held off stream last year?
    If you want to see the matches in real time, show up to Evo. If you just want things recorded for posterity, get together with a crew of people and work out how to cover all the important match ups. Evo is still a tournament, they aren't going to freeze things for the viewing pleasure of people.
    .

    If you wanted to see the Super Bowl, you should've bought tickets and flown there!

    OF COURSE they already do freeze things for viewing pleasure. OF COURSE they *should* freeze things for viewing pleasure. There's a reason that halftime is 20 minutes longer at the Super Bowl. I can't recall ever being to a weekly tournament, least of all a Major where the participants did not start the match until they got the ok from the streamer.
  • PreppyPreppy act like you're used to it Joined: Posts: 14,168 admin
    Ramrod wrote: »
    Preppy wrote: »
    PS: And please continue to know that I think anybody claiming that previous Evos didn't have incredibly awesome matches not filmed is batshit insane.
    Literally no one has said this. We have gone through pains to say the OPPOSITE. You are fighting a straw man. Literally every reply of mine in this thread has included the fact that "Of course there are awesome hype matches that happen off stream at every EVO." - THAT IS NOT THE ISSUE.
    Sure, sorry for misrepresenting your position. I was confusing you with this guy:
    Ramrod wrote: »
    Preppy wrote: »
    The only reason you noticed this year was because it involved people you cared about. This happens every year.
    It does not happen on this level every year, hence the outrage. It happened somewhat close to this level last year, which makes this year even MORE indefensible. No, this was not the average run of the mill "some great matches happened off stream". To pretend that it was betrays such gross willful ignorance that I can only laugh and shake my head.
    Let's knock off the exceptionalism here. All sorts of matches were heroic awesome matches for the people involved, and the matches you're not expecting to be hype turn out to be awesome. Talk with the stream guy(s) about maybe moving that key match you know of to the stream. Generally bear in mind that the schedule is absolutely fucked, so it might not be possible. But people listen.

    I wasn't there, I trust Clock. Sounds like some fine smart individuals should volunteer to help out next year. I'll be back helping out. If you're awesome, help out too. If you're there and think the person running it is having problems, help them be better.

    Evo historically doesn't have time to and cannot be frozen. Please refer to Evo 2002, where the finals were best of 1 because they simply ran out of time.

    Evo has been us and is us. It's about us and it's run by us. If you want it to be better, make it better. That's what I do almost every year. Be the change you want to see. Be that awesome TO. Applications are open every year: apply, make good shit happen.

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  • tatakitataki misplaced Joined: Posts: 7,699
    FrostyAU wrote: »
    The only legitimate reason I see why they'd keep it off him was because they were worried about a Kotaku-bait style popoff

    That reason alone is more than enough. If you watched the MKX tournament on ESL they let players talk but only in videos that were recorded in advance, means they were approved to be "clean" and suitable for viewing.
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  • J.DJ.D EVO Staff Joined: Posts: 4,500 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    edited July 2015
    Viscant wrote: »
    I have heard (and have 0 doubt on the truthfulness of this) that players were given incorrect instructions on DLC being legal, i.e. a Shuma player forced to play on a setup that didn't have DLC.

    I know what happened.
    A player said he was told by a judge that he had to play in a setup that didn't have Shuma. The judge said he absolutely didn't say that.
    It's a miscommunication problem. The issue is that the player went ahead and played the set without Shuma,lost and then complained about it to Angelic after the set was done and the bracket had moved forward.
    I asked Valle and Chris Li about it, and they both agreed that the player signed the papers when he went ahead and played the set.
    That was the main problem. The best course of action in that situation for the player was to not play the game and contact the staff, but it didn't happen.
    I really think that if you are a player who knows the rules, and you are told (allegedly) a BS rule, that should be a red flag right there, but this player just took it. I really wish it would have gone a different way.
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  • YawDanYawDan Joined: Posts: 697
    edited July 2015
    People shouldn't be downplaying the importance of viewers and streams of the tournment. Evo makes money both directly and indirectly from viewers watching. They can't profit from stream viewers, then be defended when viewers say the matches they wanted to see weren't shown (well, this thread showing that actually, they can be defended notwithstanding).

    Justin wong, Chris G and Filipino Champ are the 3 biggest players of the game. They did not factor this into their streaming decisions and hence the backlash. Add in a stream starting nearly 2 hours late, the shambles of frutsy/kbr match, and KBR not getting the mic, and here we are.

    Actually, this is all Justin Wong's, Chris G's and Filipino Champ's fault for not winning. I can't even be mad at the organization of the tournament for this.
    Post edited by YawDan on
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  • NooneyouknowNooneyouknow Joined: Posts: 2,654
    Viscant wrote: »
    --Jay Snyder
    Viscant@aol.com

    So, all the same issues that have been around since at least my first time going, scaled up for larger attendance. I honestly think Evo needs to add at least a 4th day, and probably a 5th if we really want to get every match that should be on stream on stream, without creating cluster fucks and down time.

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  • PerthoPertho The Runed One Joined: Posts: 22,008 mod
    YawDan wrote: »
    People shouldn't be downplaying the importance of viewers and streams of the tournment. Evo makes money both directly and indirectly from viewers watching. They can't profit from stream viewers, then be defended when viewers say the matches they wanted to see weren't shown (well, this thread showing that actually, they can be defended notwithstanding).

    We can, easily. This community was getting along pretty well before things just blew up. The stream as a means to reach out to members of the community who can't go? Great. The streams as a free show to people who will never really give two fucks about any of us? There's only so much we can do for them.

    This needs to be explained one more time: there are always great matches going on and some of them are going to be missed. Trying to get them all on stream means that pools would have to run late. While I don't agree with all of the decisions involved with Evo, timeliness and running a proper tournament are one thing they excel at. This tourney being sloppy seems to have happened because they were too busy arranging free entertainment for a shitload of people.

    The floodgates are open and all that's fine. Could do they do a better job? Yeah. Provide better insight on how they messed up and how they could improve it. Ranting because they didn't show some of the marquee match ups is just what happens. Have you ever watched Evo DVDs? Guess how many things aren't there?
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    jimmy1200 wrote: »
    pertho attacked me first, saying i get all my life tips from 106th and park.
  • OerbaOerba Just a joke! Joined: Posts: 1,373
    I hate to be that guy, but having two smash games at EVO I feel really fucked things up. Their communities are both huge and do not have nearly as much overlap as one might think, which made the venue just horribly clogged. As Viscant was saying, when Smash was going on in the exhibitor hall it was basically impossible to maneuver around in that area.
    I can't see how the EVO staff didn't have the foresight to see that including two additional games which draw the same amount of players as SF would be a logistical nightmare in that venue, especially since I'm sure they plan what venue they pick at least a year ahead.
  • RX-78-3RX-78-3 Newport News Arcade OG Joined: Posts: 557
    edited July 2015
    I fully understand the staff not handing over the mic. It's a potential PR nightmare if the winner says something dumb live. You don't want to tick off sponsors or have something said that will always link back to EVO and tarnish the game/tournament. Kane may have only wanted to say good things, but it's still risky. Maybe next year we can get some sort of immediate interview or report after the grand finals for each game.

    The only other issue that seemed to pop up was the "extended button checks". Even though it sucked, I understand the fire hazard one. However, their seemed to be quite a few games that were proceeding for a bit only for one individual to claim it was a button check and to restart the game. The staff and the FGC needs to come down hard on this if it starts to become a serious trend. It's effectively giving yourself a free mulligan and reset if your opponent starts gaining momentum.

    Edit: "Everything needs to be streamed/recorded" just isn't going to happen with the current EVO schedule. EVO would have to turn in to a week long tournament to even begin to think about recording every game that is played. It's up to the community to take the initiative and try and record every game they can. Lets be thankful that camera phones are now so much more prevalent. They may not be ideal, but it's better than nothing.
    Post edited by RX-78-3 on
    :f::d::df:+:p:
  • RamrodRamrod P.G. Joined: Posts: 406
    Oerba wrote: »
    I hate to be that guy, but having two smash games at EVO I feel really fucked things up. Their communities are both huge and do not have nearly as much overlap as one might think, which made the venue just horribly clogged. As Viscant was saying, when Smash was going on in the exhibitor hall it was basically impossible to maneuver around in that area.
    I can't see how the EVO staff didn't have the foresight to see that including two additional games which draw the same amount of players as SF would be a logistical nightmare in that venue, especially since I'm sure they plan what venue they pick at least a year ahead.

    DING DING DING! We have a winner!

    Of course it was the "fault" of having two Smash games at Evo this year, and OF COURSE the Evo organizers should have used this huge influx of money to hold the event in a venue appropriate for such a bigger influx of players and spectators.
  • J.DJ.D EVO Staff Joined: Posts: 4,500 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Ramrod wrote: »
    Oerba wrote: »
    Evo organizers should have used this huge influx of money to hold the event in a venue appropriate for such a bigger influx of players and spectators.

    Not as easy as it sounds. Most ballrooms in Vegas are booked through 2020.
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  • ZacharaZachara Joined: Posts: 884
    Pertho wrote: »
    The streams as a free show to people who will never really give two fucks about any of us? There's only so much we can do for them.

    Serious question - Who gets to decide who doesn't give a fuck and who does?
    Don't know why, that quoted comment really rubbed me the wrong way. Not entirely sure what you're implying about some of us Stream Monsters.



    Something that can't be denied in this - Viscant has come in and dropped an informative post about his experience and the only part anyone has mentioned was the Shuma thing? (Which is a he said/she said situation at this point).
    Viscant wrote:
    we should have put matches involving combinations of Justin/Champ/Chris/Clock on stream no matter what the time cost.

    This is exactly what other people are saying but Jay gets to say it without people talking down to him because he's known?

    I'm not saying that's 100% how it is but just how it appears to be while reading through this.
  • PerthoPertho The Runed One Joined: Posts: 22,008 mod
    Zachara wrote: »

    This is exactly what other people are saying but Jay gets to say it without people talking down to him because he's known?

    I'm not saying that's 100% how it is but just how it appears to be while reading through this.

    Because he is wrong. Here, since you think we care about OGs:
    Viscant wrote:
    we should have put matches involving combinations of Justin/Champ/Chris/Clock on stream no matter what the time cost.

    Lol no. Whenever possible they should but not at the cost of having the tournament run like shit. It some bullshit that people who spent thousands of dollars should play second fiddle to people who didn't attend. Its a tournament, you don't go there to get screen time, you go there to win.
    Ronin Chaos on Pertho:

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    jimmy1200 wrote: »
    pertho attacked me first, saying i get all my life tips from 106th and park.
  • TMNTempsTMNTemps brozhear Joined: Posts: 4,202
    Oerba wrote: »
    I hate to be that guy, but having two smash games at EVO I feel really fucked things up. Their communities are both huge and do not have nearly as much overlap as one might think, which made the venue just horribly clogged. As Viscant was saying, when Smash was going on in the exhibitor hall it was basically impossible to maneuver around in that area.
    I can't see how the EVO staff didn't have the foresight to see that including two additional games which draw the same amount of players as SF would be a logistical nightmare in that venue, especially since I'm sure they plan what venue they pick at least a year ahead.

    even then, they can handle Melee no problem.

    Smash 4 was the problem. Takes forever to run, boring to watch game with one guy so much better than anyone else the only thing he murdered harder than his bracket was hype. Smash 4 is what fucked over Marvel on Saturday. I could have sworn when I checked the Evo schedule, Marvel was supposed to be running almost all day on two streams Saturday ... then when I actually tuned in and could find nothing but Smash, I noticed the schedule only had a few hours of Marvel scheduled for that night all on side streams.

    Then running so many ChrisG and Champ matches off stream ... like, come on guys. It's a little more understandable when it happens in a SF tournament because there are way more killers playing it ... and even then shit like Evo final runbacks involving guys like Daigo should NEVER be offstream - fuck a bracket disruption, stuff like that NEEDS to be streamed. Matches with an extremely high chance of generating an Evo Moment need to happen on a good recording setup and be seen live. This is just common sense, I though.

    You gotta build the word of mouth while the tournament is still going on so it spreads to the stream monsters and gets them pumped for finals day. Just a tweet here and there with no video ain't going to cut it for that.

    Total Marvel audience this year was 177k between Twitch & Topanga because Japan started tuning into Marvel in big numbers ... that's a good show, but even tho entrant numbers dropped this year, viewers should have easily climbed up to the 200k mark. If a game as shitty as MKX can hit 190k, Marvel can do better
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  • PerthoPertho The Runed One Joined: Posts: 22,008 mod
    Viscant wrote: »
    snip

    SF4, Xrd and MvC3 all ran like shit though. Xrd guys got dicked over in regular viewing space. Even then we are compounding issues by making pools bend themselves for stream time. If the notable names are a handful, then maybe MvC3 should be an exhibition tournament. I mean, if you're going to say something like:
    We lost a lot of fanbases and created a lot of apathy towards top 8 due to stream decisions and tournament running decisions.

    Then something just isn't quite right. You're worried largely about a lot of people who don't play the game in the first place. As I mentioned before, running a smooth tournament should be the main concern. Maybe if MvC3 had gone smoothly the players could've excused things being missing from the stream. If the tournament runs like ass and there is no benefit to it in the stream, then it just seems like a lot of effort for nothing. that didn't happen and then the stream ended up jacking up things even more.

    If you want a fanbase that watches, then making MvC3 a special PPV type thing would be best. If you want to run a tournament, then running the tournament smoothly should be the focus. It sounds like you got neither.
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    jimmy1200 wrote: »
    pertho attacked me first, saying i get all my life tips from 106th and park.
  • WastedWasted Verbal Diarrhetic Joined: Posts: 6,035
    Who in the fuck is going to PAY to watch Marvel?
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  • PerthoPertho The Runed One Joined: Posts: 22,008 mod
    Wasted wrote: »
    Who in the fuck is going to PAY to watch Marvel?

    Apparently whichever fanbase was it that got it let down. A fanbase which also cares so much about the game that some of them didn't like watching KBR do something amazing in that game.

    I guess this is also the same fanbase that stopped showing up to play the games at majors.
    Ronin Chaos on Pertho:

    "Oh, Pertho. You complete me."
    jimmy1200 wrote: »
    pertho attacked me first, saying i get all my life tips from 106th and park.
  • LivewireXLivewireX Joined: Posts: 5,859
    So skimming through this, pretty much people's thoughts on ChrisG vs RF not getting streamed is essentially "can you imagine if Snake Eyez vs Daigo happened off-stream?".

    As for the KBR mic situation...couldn't they have just well, ASKED him what he wanted to say and decided from that? Now, I'm not saying anything silly like "The Top 8 can write out 'in case I win' statements beforehand if they want to say anything", but still. I mean, I may not know KBR, but he doesn't come across as the type to grab the house mic and start yelling "fuck you, bitches! I won, y'all are fucking garbage, you're shit!" or whatever.
  • RamrodRamrod P.G. Joined: Posts: 406
    Pertho wrote: »
    Viscant wrote: »
    snip

    SF4, Xrd and MvC3 all ran like shit though. Xrd guys got dicked over in regular viewing space. Even then we are compounding issues by making pools bend themselves for stream time. If the notable names are a handful, then maybe MvC3 should be an exhibition tournament. I mean, if you're going to say something like:
    We lost a lot of fanbases and created a lot of apathy towards top 8 due to stream decisions and tournament running decisions.

    Then something just isn't quite right. You're worried largely about a lot of people who don't play the game in the first place. As I mentioned before, running a smooth tournament should be the main concern. Maybe if MvC3 had gone smoothly the players could've excused things being missing from the stream. If the tournament runs like ass and there is no benefit to it in the stream, then it just seems like a lot of effort for nothing. that didn't happen and then the stream ended up jacking up things even more.

    If you want a fanbase that watches, then making MvC3 a special PPV type thing would be best. If you want to run a tournament, then running the tournament smoothly should be the focus. It sounds like you got neither.

    Can't tell if willfully obtuse or moron.
  • BurnYourEgoBurnYourEgo Ishikawa don't care about your weeabullshit avatar. Joined: Posts: 1,997
    LivewireX wrote: »
    So skimming through this, pretty much people's thoughts on ChrisG vs RF not getting streamed is essentially "can you imagine if Snake Eyez vs Daigo happened off-stream?".

    As for the KBR mic situation...couldn't they have just well, ASKED him what he wanted to say and decided from that? Now, I'm not saying anything silly like "The Top 8 can write out 'in case I win' statements beforehand if they want to say anything", but still. I mean, I may not know KBR, but he doesn't come across as the type to grab the house mic and start yelling "fuck you, bitches! I won, y'all are fucking garbage, you're shit!" or whatever.

    Not really about that, the precedent was that no one gets the mic, they didn't want to start a new precedent. Check Viscant's post, he didn't get it either when he won.
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  • CorkyjayCorkyjay Joined: Posts: 288
    bloodymess wrote: »

    4. The most viewed game for something like two/three years in a row gets a corner of the secondary hall but we get Killer Instinct/MKX for the big screen? I understand EVO is more about the "Holla Holla Get Dollah" lifestyle but some courtesy for a community that strove to do whatever it could to bring their game's prestige to a similar level.

    Ok id like to a dress this statement now if you look at both games you just named even though they weren't the most popular games they have showed easily the most support from their community funds wise. KI community raised so much money for the past 3 tournaments including evo pot bonus wise you wouldn't believe how fast it was too. MKX also raise a huge amount of funds too so I feel they earned their position to be on the main stage. Not only that but KI was having Finals the day of marvel pools so finals should naturally get main stage priority over pools.
  • FizzyKupsFizzyKups An Actual Zombie Joined: Posts: 87
    inb4 EVO drops Marvel next year

    inb4 CEOtaku takes its place in regards to Marvel
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