Fantasy Strike - easy to execute fighting game

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  • MuttonmanMuttonman Joined: Posts: 2,877
    Pertho wrote: »
    you know, part of the thing that makes FGs unique IS the execution. Its one thing the genre has that kind of sets it apart. I find the people who say it shouldn't exist to be as misguided as those that want everything super hard to do.

    That's bullshit; shooters have way harder execution requirements. MOBAs have fucking execution requirements. StarCraft has absolutely wicked execution requirements. The only esports I can think of that doesn't have them are card games
  • SaitsuSaitsu When a Kid, Becomes a Legend Joined: Posts: 35,255
    Muttonman wrote: »
    Pertho wrote: »
    you know, part of the thing that makes FGs unique IS the execution. Its one thing the genre has that kind of sets it apart. I find the people who say it shouldn't exist to be as misguided as those that want everything super hard to do.

    That's bullshit; shooters have way harder execution requirements. MOBAs have fucking execution requirements. StarCraft has absolutely wicked execution requirements. The only esports I can think of that doesn't have them are card games

    Untrue, after all, what's a card game without excessive hand shuffling for 30 minutes? :coffee:
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  • MuttonmanMuttonman Joined: Posts: 2,877
    Saitsu wrote: »
    Muttonman wrote: »
    Pertho wrote: »
    you know, part of the thing that makes FGs unique IS the execution. Its one thing the genre has that kind of sets it apart. I find the people who say it shouldn't exist to be as misguided as those that want everything super hard to do.

    That's bullshit; shooters have way harder execution requirements. MOBAs have fucking execution requirements. StarCraft has absolutely wicked execution requirements. The only esports I can think of that doesn't have them are card games

    Untrue, after all, what's a card game without excessive hand shuffling for 30 minutes? :coffee:

    The true execution is breathing through your mouth the whole time. Then again, Smash does that + wavedashing so it's not unique
  • PerthoPertho The Runed One Joined: Posts: 22,364 mod
    Muttonman wrote: »
    Pertho wrote: »
    you know, part of the thing that makes FGs unique IS the execution. Its one thing the genre has that kind of sets it apart. I find the people who say it shouldn't exist to be as misguided as those that want everything super hard to do.

    That's bullshit; shooters have way harder execution requirements. MOBAs have fucking execution requirements. StarCraft has absolutely wicked execution requirements. The only esports I can think of that doesn't have them are card games

    Ignores all the motion commands in the game to make some extra point.

    Beep bap boooop one button supers are the truth. Skip dap doodle dee, your fighting game need be just like this.

    Whether you want to accept it or not, all of the motion commands are part of the experience of playing a fighting game. Execution for a lot of things are part of the FG experience. you get so hung up on one button specials to prove a point that you don't address all of the thing simplifying leaves out.

    That's okay though. People worshiping at the Church of The Snake Shirt eventually turn into zealots.
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    jimmy1200 wrote: »
    pertho attacked me first, saying i get all my life tips from 106th and park.
  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 10,242
    Muttonman wrote: »
    Pertho wrote: »
    you know, part of the thing that makes FGs unique IS the execution. Its one thing the genre has that kind of sets it apart. I find the people who say it shouldn't exist to be as misguided as those that want everything super hard to do.

    That's bullshit; shooters have way harder execution requirements. MOBAs have fucking execution requirements. StarCraft has absolutely wicked execution requirements. The only esports I can think of that doesn't have them are card games

    Uh, no, shooters and MOBAs are much more simple to handle than fighting games. There's a reason why they are way more popular as genres (and it's not just because they're not 1v1).
    RTS on the other hand simply require you to be insane.
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  • MuttonmanMuttonman Joined: Posts: 2,877
    edited September 3
    Pertho wrote: »
    Muttonman wrote: »
    Pertho wrote: »
    you know, part of the thing that makes FGs unique IS the execution. Its one thing the genre has that kind of sets it apart. I find the people who say it shouldn't exist to be as misguided as those that want everything super hard to do.

    That's bullshit; shooters have way harder execution requirements. MOBAs have fucking execution requirements. StarCraft has absolutely wicked execution requirements. The only esports I can think of that doesn't have them are card games

    Ignores all the motion commands in the game to make some extra point.

    Beep bap boooop one button supers are the truth. Skip dap doodle dee, your fighting game need be just like this.

    Whether you want to accept it or not, all of the motion commands are part of the experience of playing a fighting game. Execution for a lot of things are part of the FG experience. you get so hung up on one button specials to prove a point that you don't address all of the thing simplifying leaves out.

    That's okay though. People worshiping at the Church of The Snake Shirt eventually turn into zealots.
    Muttonman wrote: »
    Pertho wrote: »
    you know, part of the thing that makes FGs unique IS the execution. Its one thing the genre has that kind of sets it apart. I find the people who say it shouldn't exist to be as misguided as those that want everything super hard to do.

    That's bullshit; shooters have way harder execution requirements. MOBAs have fucking execution requirements. StarCraft has absolutely wicked execution requirements. The only esports I can think of that doesn't have them are card games

    Uh, no, shooters and MOBAs are much more simple to handle than fighting games. There's a reason why they are way more popular as genres (and it's not just because they're not 1v1).
    RTS on the other hand simply require you to be insane.

    Fighters have a higher skill floor to feel like you know what you're doing, but you're absolutely a scrub if you don't think that the execution barrier to being good at shooters isn't leagues higher than it is for fighters.

    MOBA games absolutely have execution requirements; I'd say they're easier than fighters for sure with the exception maybe of some micro heroes which start to get up there, but my argument was that the execution requirements are there, but that they're higher.

    Motion commands are not some commandment from on high that if you don't have them, you're not a fighter. You saying that isn't the most retarded thing in the thread thanks to Sir Random up there, but it's a respectable second. I enjoy the motions and think they add something to the game, but they're not indispensable, and I like that people are experimenting with traditional fighters without them. There's room for more types of fighters; FS existing doesn't mean your favorite FG is suddenly booted off the island
    Post edited by Muttonman on
  • Remy77077Remy77077 futility fighting Joined: Posts: 352
    edited September 5
    The important thing for me is that there's loads of room for different levels of technical execution in many kinds of videogame genres, fighting games included. Just depends on your personal preference of what kind of game (and even characters within a game) that you enjoy.

    But in fighting games, there is very little at the lower-technical execution end of the spectrum, which is why it's so cool Fantasy Strike is happening. I really enjoy it, and I can enjoy some games with much more complex execution too.
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  • doctorfedoradoctorfedora A Road in Kyoto Joined: Posts: 42
    edited September 6
    Wow, this thread turned really stupid for a while.

    For what it's worth, QCF and DP motions are what they are because they were originally designed, in SF1, to mimic the actual movement of Ryu's body when throwing a hadouken or doing a shoryuken. That's 100% it. "Can't do a DP while crouching" is entirely an emergent gameplay characteristic of a motion based on the way Ryu steps forward to start a deep uppercut from down low. Let's stop having this argument.

    As for the actual game the thread is about… it's a fun game! The reason people compare it to ST at all is because, on a bunch of fundamental yet superficial levels, it feels like SF2 (stuff like no dashing and throws that actually do damage instead of being teched 200% of the time like in modern SF).

    It's going live on Steam Early Access sometime this month, with private matches, and I'm looking forward to that because queueing in the current Patreon build is tough, because I'm in Kyoto far away from nearly everyone else on Patreon and the ping-based matchmaking means that I'm perpetually very low priority. It'll be nice to be able to see if someone wants to play, and then actually choose to play against them instead of just both queueing and hoping we eventually get matched up by The Algorithm.
  • doctorfedoradoctorfedora A Road in Kyoto Joined: Posts: 42
    Nice! New build is up! Some cool gameplay changes (I cackled with evil glee when I saw that Grave's counterhit air super now keeps moving instead of stopping in place) and better graphics (though Valerie now falls victim to the same bug that Setsuki does in the Mac version, where a bug in the Mac version of Unity randomly causes BODY HORROR in characters with facial animation) and a new background. Looks like the dedicated throw button is the official policy, at least for the moment, which… I can understand, even if I don't personally like it.

    They also replaced Grave's ground super animation, so that at this point, there are officially no animations that haters can point at and be like "they just copied ____." I'm sure that's just a coincidence, though. ; )

    (I'm still holding out hopes that, in the interest of not just providing haters with free ammo, they'll go with staff-based-attacks Argagarg instead of stretchy-arms-based Argagarg, because — let's face it — stretchy arms are way less interesting anyway from a design perspective. I do hope they take a cue from SF5 Dhalsim's animations, though, and just make him a squishy boneless boy who moves more like an octopus than a human.)
  • MuttonmanMuttonman Joined: Posts: 2,877

    They also replaced Grave's ground super animation, so that at this point, there are officially no animations that haters can point at and be like "they just copied ____." I'm sure that's just a coincidence, though. ; )

    DeGray 6A, pilebunker, and Dead on Time got changed as well? And Rook's spd? And Geiger's animations?

    Also, both Merkava and Raven take offense to thinking that stretchy arms being less interesting. I didn't think he'd be the Sim analog though, as there was the robot for that. I have no clue how he'll play though, as your "fireballs on any part of the screen", Guile, and fireball trap characters are already taken.
  • tatakitataki misplaced Joined: Posts: 7,703
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  • doctorfedoradoctorfedora A Road in Kyoto Joined: Posts: 42
    Countdown timer on fantasystrike.com suggests that Steam Early Access is coming at the end of this week (with, Patreon patrons have been told, private matches with friends now available)
  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 10,242
    Holy fuck Val's new model is ugly. If this is the price to pay to have facial animation I'd rather keep her emotionless.
    I'm also not sure I like the new shaders. I feel the heavier cell shading gave the game more personality.
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  • pootnanniespootnannies mr. negative Joined: Posts: 3,165
    if this game's philosophy is super easy inputs and some strategy that's fine. not all fighting games should be the same and new things can be discovered this way. but saying that ALL fighters should have super easy commands is just stupid as that is a part that is rewarding and actually balances specials as well as being more immersive. it is like a real martial art where you have to practice a lot to acquire a skill and you just get better and better. why take that out because Herr Sirlin says it's bad? execution can be and is a part of the strategy as well. and it's a hell of lot more impressive to watch people pull off combos they had to practice a lot in an intense atmosphere like a major tournament.

    you don't lose strategy because of harder execution, you actually gain some more strategical avenues to explore because of it. why only have one or the other when you can have both?


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  • MuttonmanMuttonman Joined: Posts: 2,877
    if this game's philosophy is super easy inputs and some strategy that's fine. not all fighting games should be the same and new things can be discovered this way. but saying that ALL fighters should have super easy commands is just stupid as that is a part that is rewarding and actually balances specials as well as being more immersive. it is like a real martial art where you have to practice a lot to acquire a skill and you just get better and better. why take that out because Herr Sirlin says it's bad? execution can be and is a part of the strategy as well. and it's a hell of lot more impressive to watch people pull off combos they had to practice a lot in an intense atmosphere like a major tournament.

    you don't lose strategy because of harder execution, you actually gain some more strategical avenues to explore because of it. why only have one or the other when you can have both?

    Who is saying that? And the argument is never that you lose strategy, as that's a retarded argument; having six buttons instead of 100 each of which does something slightly different technically gives you less strategy under that definition.

    Being able to always execute your strategies lends a certain type of robustness to the game and shifts the balance towards making decisions instead of being able to execute them. It's a spectrum from Chess to DDR and it's kind of dumb to think that moving one or two steps in either direction makes a game illegitimate.
  • DimeDime Wasting time Joined: Posts: 11,057
    I see both sides of the argument as being valid.

    The only caveat I would say is that in the case of reversals themselves which is the primary thing that I have a disdain for at lower execution, is that the reversals themselves should have a drawback bigger than just being punishable on block if they are super easy to do.

    Fantasy strike see,s to handle this well by placing more limitations on reversals than is seen in most other fighters. Things like losing health just for attempting a reversal are good balances in my mind.

    In skullgirls I don't know if this is super intentional, but while many characters have invincible moves, most that don't require meter have big downsides like filias DP having very little horizontal range.

    Most other invincible attacks outside of that have the balancing factor that they are supers and require meter to do them, sure they can be made safe, but that requires 2 meters and the correct team setup, plus using 2 meters on a move that does really good damage when combod into, on block, is actually something that can severely weaken your game as your opponent will now be winning the meter game and can much more easily kill you than you can kill them.

    I like these kinds of decisions being made to balance the ease of use of said moves.

    But in games where execution is a real factor getting out invincible moves or even just really strong moves, those also have a level of depth that is welcomed by players that make strategies that depend on putting their opponents into "hard to execute properly" situations, which is a very valid strategy, such as when using a meaty against a waking opponent while knowing that you are forcing the waking opponent to do a reversal that can be as hard to time as a 1 frame link depending on the games reversal window.
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  • MuttonmanMuttonman Joined: Posts: 2,877
    Dime wrote: »
    I see both sides of the argument as being valid.

    The only caveat I would say is that in the case of reversals themselves which is the primary thing that I have a disdain for at lower execution, is that the reversals themselves should have a drawback bigger than just being punishable on block if they are super easy to do.

    Fantasy strike see,s to handle this well by placing more limitations on reversals than is seen in most other fighters. Things like losing health just for attempting a reversal are good balances in my mind.

    In skullgirls I don't know if this is super intentional, but while many characters have invincible moves, most that don't require meter have big downsides like filias DP having very little horizontal range.

    Most other invincible attacks outside of that have the balancing factor that they are supers and require meter to do them, sure they can be made safe, but that requires 2 meters and the correct team setup, plus using 2 meters on a move that does really good damage when combod into, on block, is actually something that can severely weaken your game as your opponent will now be winning the meter game and can much more easily kill you than you can kill them.

    I like these kinds of decisions being made to balance the ease of use of said moves.

    But in games where execution is a real factor getting out invincible moves or even just really strong moves, those also have a level of depth that is welcomed by players that make strategies that depend on putting their opponents into "hard to execute properly" situations, which is a very valid strategy, such as when using a meaty against a waking opponent while knowing that you are forcing the waking opponent to do a reversal that can be as hard to time as a 1 frame link depending on the games reversal window.

    I like big reversal windows, but that's because I see reversals as a core elemental of fighting game design; getting one off should not be difficult. I actually like how SFV left them in a counterhit state as it made for real risk, especially because you could not make them safe. I think that if you're going to have "hard to execute" it needs to be very finely tuned; something like YRC Oki where it's basically just a no reversal button or certain crossup setups where you're actively giving up great Oki because you have a good read on the reversal
  • doctorfedoradoctorfedora A Road in Kyoto Joined: Posts: 42
    ah yes, the traditionally accepted fundamentals of fighting games: spacing, reaction, and dragon!!!.
  • doctorfedoradoctorfedora A Road in Kyoto Joined: Posts: 42
    Nice! APPARENTLY the build at SoCal Regionals has Lum playable, which suggests that we may well see our Blankafaust panda in the October update to the game :O
  • doctorfedoradoctorfedora A Road in Kyoto Joined: Posts: 42
    https://mobile.twitter.com/MK_ForeverKing/status/913171274175799296

    This game gets pretty hype! I wasn’t there, but apparently Forever King used Jaina’s DP like it DIDN'T cost 1 HP every time, to a completely insane extent that even the devs couldn’t believe
  • BoronaCornealisBoronaCornealis Joined: Posts: 13
    edited September 29
    I don't see this game having much life to it.

    It's another one of those "easy execution" fighters. I played it for the free weekend it was out and it didn't make me want to come back to it after the weekend was done. I got bored of it quite quickly. I imagine lots of others feel the same way. It practically borders on being a Mario Party minigame since there's so little to it. I didn't feel compelled to keep playing - I think the skill ceiling will be reached very quickly with this game and everyone is going to plateau within two weeks at most.

    I just don't understand what the market for this game is. People who are interested in fighting games but at the same time can't even do a fireball motion that's ubiquitous across all fighters? Give me a break. This game is trying to cure an illness by killing the patient. And I don't get why they need more money for it. The game already achieves what they want it to do. What exactly is another few hundred thousand going to accomplish? It's long in the tooth.
  • doctorfedoradoctorfedora A Road in Kyoto Joined: Posts: 42
    So… what's the goal of posting something like that, anyway? Would you like a trophy because you've decided not to play? When's the last time you saw the internet drop to their knees in admiration of someone for saying "hey this thing that someone is trying to do is bad, and I'm cool, because I don't like it"? It mostly sounds like maybe things are kind of rough for you and you're trying to find something to take out your bad feelings on.

    More to the point, though, I've at least been playing this game for a long time (Patreon, yo) and after netplay started working, I can definitely say that I consistently beat some players and consistently lose to others, and if there's one thing that suggests that it's got competitive legs, it's the fact that certain people tend to win pretty consistently.

    Personally, I like it because it feels like the most SF2 game since SF2, and I can play it with friends who play non-SF fighting games without one of us being at a major disadvantage, because the system is straightforward and quick to learn. Shrug. (I can play it with friends who don't play fighting games, too — I still usually win, but it's at least a lot less frustrating for them because they don't have to go through the video game equivalent of learning how to use the DOS prompt just to do a basic thing, and they can play the game.)

    It's cool if you like another game better! You can play that game, and enjoy it. I promise I won't go out of my way to come over to wherever you are, enjoying the thing you're enjoying, and basically just do a jerk thing in public!

    If you'd like, though, you can hop on the Steam version (if you play for less than two hours or so, you can get a refund, too) and hit up the Discord chat if you'd like to find some matches and show off how just quickly you reached the skill ceiling against folks who have been playing for a while now. I'm sure that there'd be a few folks who'd love to see. ; )
  • omaoma www.facebook.com/fgcbergen Joined: Posts: 81
    I'm having fun with the game, can't wait until tournaments come up for this! The online is so good, it should be great to play tournaments online too ^^
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  • doctorfedoradoctorfedora A Road in Kyoto Joined: Posts: 42
    I know, right? They've said in Discord that spectator mode is the next thing on their roadmap, but they're running pretty short on money to pay programmers so they haven't had a chance to get that in yet. Once that's in there, though, yeah, online tournaments would be awesome!
  • Remy77077Remy77077 futility fighting Joined: Posts: 352
    I'm an experienced FS player and experienced FG player, and yet I meet people online at Fantasy Strike who would likely 50-0 me still.

    There's no chance you've met the skill ceiling in a couple of days or weeks. Try playing vs someone like Aphotix or Heikai and you'll see what I mean!
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  • KorbidonKorbidon Who can stand against such abominations? Joined: Posts: 4,622
    i can't decide if rook is op or just a scrub killer
  • CronopioCronopio ST Joined: Posts: 2,159
    dizzynecro wrote: »
    Guys I've mastered chess because when I want to move a piece it actually goes where I try to put it every time. I've definitely hit the skill ceiling for this game.

    Too bad chess has a million times more choices to make. Checkers would be a better analogy for this minigame.
  • LordxMugenLordxMugen FIGHTAN GAHMS!!! Joined: Posts: 575
    Korbidon wrote: »
    i can't decide if rook is op or just a scrub killer
    Scrub Killer in that hes super slow and forced to use his high health pretty much as a resource to get in. faster characters with good mix-ups like Setsuki and Valerie can wreck him if they can find an opening. Or they can play Dragon Honda, which back in the beta weekend could damage much more safely than him.

    *silently waits for Darkstalkers 4*
  • doctorfedoradoctorfedora A Road in Kyoto Joined: Posts: 42
    edited September 30
    Remarkably, one of the best Rook players (I’ve never beaten him) insists that at high levels of play, Rook is probably the worst character.

    On the other hand, if he gets in close it’s basically over, especially if the opponent doesn’t know you can hold jump to escape from command throws.
  • dizzynecrodizzynecro ゾインクス! ゾインクス! Joined: Posts: 954
    Cronopio wrote: »
    dizzynecro wrote: »
    Guys I've mastered chess because when I want to move a piece it actually goes where I try to put it every time. I've definitely hit the skill ceiling for this game.

    Too bad chess has a million times more choices to make. Checkers would be a better analogy for this minigame.

    I think you missed the point. I wasn't saying this game is equivalent to chess.
  • BoronaCornealisBoronaCornealis Joined: Posts: 13
    edited September 30
    So… what's the goal of posting something like that, anyway?

    To get my two cents across...? I don't know what grade you're in, but once you pass elementary school, it's kind of accepted that not everyone is going to share your opinions on everything ever.

    I provided feedback on why the game doesn't appeal to me, and most fighting game players seem to be in my boat. If and when this game does fail, opinions like mine will help them figure out why.

    You say that "certain types of people" win consistently with the game. That doesn't prove anything about the game's "competitive legs". Certain types of people know how to win Tic-Tac-Toe all the time, that doesn't mean the game has competitive legs. As someone who won consistently with this game (I played Rook), I can safely say this game doesn't have a lot going for it. Even if you're some kind of autist savant who doesn't get bored of it quickly, you will certainly plateau once you reach the game's low skill ceiling.

    On the other hand, if he gets in close it’s basically over, especially if the opponent doesn’t know you can hold jump to escape from command throws.

    I take it from this you don't actually know how to play the game very well. "Jump to escape command throws" is the most basic rule of grappler combat and here you're posting this idea like it's undiscovered tech.
  • HecatomHecatom Aka Black Gorilla (・Д・)ノ Joined: Posts: 23,783
    Cronopio wrote: »
    dizzynecro wrote: »
    Guys I've mastered chess because when I want to move a piece it actually goes where I try to put it every time. I've definitely hit the skill ceiling for this game.

    Too bad chess has a million times more choices to make. Checkers would be a better analogy for this minigame.

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  • KeckaKecka Psycho Crushing that booty Joined: Posts: 1,742
    Look, we can argue about execution all we want. I would boil it down even more. Hype.

    Is this game hype? Are the characters hype? Are the set-ups, combos, or anything about the gameplay hype? Because at the core of things, that's what the FGC is about. EBO moment 37 may be overrated and overexposed, but that's what this fighting game shit is about at its core. Cool shit you can get hype about. Now, to me this game is just a little too dull. Like, I'm all for an easy fighting game, because I'm shit and my execution is even worse. But you still need hype. Rising Thunder was still hype, because it had some cool designs, some stylish combos, and a nice flow to gameplay. This game just feels too slow for me. Nevermind easy execution. Nevermind auto-teching throws. Is it hype? Because honestly the game is slow. And it has kind of a shit art style. And since it goes "well, guesses are guesses" and went for the weird health mechanic there's not much to look at visually.

    I just feel like this is a game that's doing all the wrong things for the right reasons. At its core, the game is doing everything right. It's making the meat of a fighting game accessible to a casual audience. It's more about reads and playing smart than execution. Unfortunately, it's ignoring what a lot of us got into the FGC for in the first place. Hype. Like, I truly appreciate what this game is doing, but it just comes off as a game that ironically appeals more to hardcore fighting game fans than casuals. I am a shit scrub, but I'm a shit scrub who knows the basics of how mix-ups, 50/50s and footsies work, even if I suck at actually using them. So I can appreciate making that shit accessible to players who can't do the shit J Wong, Infiltration or FChamp does. But to a casual viewer, it just looks like a slow-ass game with a weird art style, because they don't know about all that shit.

    For a comparison, I'm the most casual of FPS players. I occasionally play Overwatch. Now, sure, that game is easier than CS or some shit like that. But it also has a striking visual style and some depth to it. I'm not playing it just because it's easy. I mean, yeah, the fact I don't get blown the fuck out because aiming takes 200 hours of practice helps, but in the end I still lose way more than I win. I'm playing it because it's accessible while it has a nice, appealing art style while still feeling like it has room to grow and some hype moments. Like, I see some Play of the Games and I flip the fuck out because this nigga got five headshots after using his ultimate in a creative way. Blizzard just didn't make the game slower and make players unable to do half the shit you can do in other FPS games. It looks to be just as fast as CS or CoD (at least to me) even if it actually is easier. Sure, they've probably made a lot of shit easier and a lot of FPS purists probably flip their shit at this post, but to me as a casual "a couple of hours a month" player it's a really good package.

    And that's where this game fails. Being easy to pick up is just not enough. You need hype.
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  • doctorfedoradoctorfedora A Road in Kyoto Joined: Posts: 42
    If you don’t think the game has hype, you haven’t witnessed Yomi counters in action. Especially when you’re on your last hit and correctly gamble on a throw attempt, straight-up winning a round on basically a mic drop.

    THAT is hype.
  • MagnificoMagnifico Joined: Posts: 840
    edited October 1
    Nice! APPARENTLY the build at SoCal Regionals has Lum playable, which suggests that we may well see our Blankafaust panda in the October update to the game :O

    I found some videos of the tournament, and the matches were quite good. Are there any videos showing Lum from the event?
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