Fantasy Strike - easy to execute fighting game

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  • PSYCH0J0SHPSYCH0J0SH Joined: Posts: 5,469
    edited November 2016
    3417gekko wrote: »
    StoneDrum wrote: »
    well, it is a fighting game B)

    This is hardly a fighting game.
    This is on the level of ironic joke games like Divekick and Senor Footsies.

    Exactly. And just like those games, it's not something I'd pay money for.

    In fact maybe that should be the name of this new subgenre
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  • PSYCH0J0SHPSYCH0J0SH Joined: Posts: 5,469
    edited November 2016
    No it won't it'll be gross shit for weebs
    Post edited by PSYCH0J0SH on
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  • keo-baskeo-bas Joined: Posts: 1,975
    BossBrown wrote: »
    PSYCH0J0SH wrote: »
    These game devs just keep on underachieving with every game, constantly trying to outdo each other in terms of simplicity.

    I don't get it! What is wrong with having more than one attack button? If you want to make a simple game why don't you just make one based on SF2 or something?

    snip
    agree with you about 100% except I won't say Trajes Fatais was the only game to get it 100%. I'm still saying phantom breaker Extra was fist game to it down to a T. However Trajes Fatais accomplishes alot. I think the game only need minor tweeks inr egards to the system. I already mention How I feel throws in Trajes Fatais are really underwhelming (outside of Lucyb/Chris B).

    Regarding Fantasy strike, I think they need to not advertise their game being simple when its wholly inaccurate. Command input may be simple but how the game function isn't
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  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,752 mod
    edited November 2016
    3417gekko wrote: »
    StoneDrum wrote: »
    well, it is a fighting game B)

    This is hardly a fighting game.
    This is on the level of ironic joke games like Divekick and Senor Footsies.

    Except that it is. At their purest level, fighting games are simply a real-time hybrid of chess (space control) and rock, paper, scissors (block beats attack beats throw beats block). Fantasy Strike focuses exactly on that.
    PSYCH0J0SH wrote: »
    StoneDrum wrote: »
    PSYCH0J0SH wrote: »
    Pertho wrote: »
    Better than smash so far.

    In what POSSIBLE way is this better than smash

    well, it is a fighting game B)

    At least Smash has crouching.

    Last I checked, there's no high-low blocking in Smash either. It's not like you can crouch with Mario and then sweep a Luigi who's blocking high.
  • KomatikKomatik Card demon Joined: Posts: 2,668
    d3v wrote: »
    Last I checked, there's no high-low blocking in Smash either. It's not like you can crouch with Mario and then sweep a Luigi who's blocking high.

    Block pressure makes shields smaller in Smash. That opens up high/low mixups and crossups.
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  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,752 mod
    Komatik wrote: »
    d3v wrote: »
    Last I checked, there's no high-low blocking in Smash either. It's not like you can crouch with Mario and then sweep a Luigi who's blocking high.

    Block pressure makes shields smaller in Smash. That opens up high/low mixups and crossups.

    Still not the same thing since blocking still isn't tied to directions or height.
  • JohnGrimmJohnGrimm A.K.A. JohnXuandou Joined: Posts: 4,330
    d3v wrote: »
    Komatik wrote: »
    d3v wrote: »
    Last I checked, there's no high-low blocking in Smash either. It's not like you can crouch with Mario and then sweep a Luigi who's blocking high.

    Block pressure makes shields smaller in Smash. That opens up high/low mixups and crossups.

    Still not the same thing since blocking still isn't tied to directions or height.

    Once your shield shrinks it is. You can hit people around the shield and you need to maneuver the shield to defend yourself. Typically though shielding is seen as disadvantageous in Smash for a number of reasons so you very rarely see shield being used. It's more common in Smash 4 but still pretty uncommon.
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  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,752 mod
    JohnGrimm wrote: »
    d3v wrote: »
    Komatik wrote: »
    d3v wrote: »
    Last I checked, there's no high-low blocking in Smash either. It's not like you can crouch with Mario and then sweep a Luigi who's blocking high.

    Block pressure makes shields smaller in Smash. That opens up high/low mixups and crossups.

    Still not the same thing since blocking still isn't tied to directions or height.

    Once your shield shrinks it is. You can hit people around the shield and you need to maneuver the shield to defend yourself. Typically though shielding is seen as disadvantageous in Smash for a number of reasons so you very rarely see shield being used. It's more common in Smash 4 but still pretty uncommon.

    Hmm... actually didn't know that. But then again, I don't follow competitive Smash.
  • The UltimateThe Ultimate AKA Command-Thrower Joined: Posts: 763
    I like this enough that I would like to play it when it's further along in development.

    I like the Yomi characters, so seeing them in an actual fighting game makes me happy.
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    Low tier and loving it~!
  • BossBrownBossBrown Joined: Posts: 98
    keo-bas wrote: »
    BossBrown wrote: »
    PSYCH0J0SH wrote: »
    These game devs just keep on underachieving with every game, constantly trying to outdo each other in terms of simplicity.

    I don't get it! What is wrong with having more than one attack button? If you want to make a simple game why don't you just make one based on SF2 or something?

    snip
    agree with you about 100% except I won't say Trajes Fatais was the only game to get it 100%. I'm still saying phantom breaker Extra was fist game to it down to a T. However Trajes Fatais accomplishes alot. I think the game only need minor tweeks inr egards to the system. I already mention How I feel throws in Trajes Fatais are really underwhelming (outside of Lucyb/Chris B).

    Regarding Fantasy strike, I think they need to not advertise their game being simple when its wholly inaccurate. Command input may be simple but how the game function isn't

    Like I said there are some titles that have done the button reductionist method well with some real good ideas but none have gotten the game 100% right including PB I think Trajais will be the first to get everything right. PB is still a good game tho my favourite of this kind of method is Budokai easily despite what is wrong the game is just too quality and unique in the way its gameplay is.

    The problem with fantasy strike is they have based made a straight up 2D fighter but removed factors from the game rather then actually applying button reductionist method well. The attacks and options are very limited but the biggest mistake I can see here is making the style of fighter and no crouch involved. I think I might of already mentioned this in the previous post but taking out huge elements in such a generic style is a big no no I am not feeling the idea of how the throw reverse works either but maybe I would have to try it before deciding it basing something on non inputting sounds bad for various reasons and boring. Like I said this will defo have as huge appeal to casual I dont think its success will be hindred in terms of who actual people who will play it but I am pretty sure it is not guna get the thumbs up from the FG players. Plenty of time to do things differently or who knows may turn out better then it sounds right now. Also the visuals are not bad in this game at all unless there is something I am not seeing either you enjoy the art style or you dont it pretty much looks like league of legends/overwatch/paladins etc as a fighter
  • CronopioCronopio ST Joined: Posts: 2,131
    edited November 2016
    Yeah, if you are going to simplify something it has to be because the system benefits from that, or to shift focus to other aspects you will make more complex. You have to compensate in some way with extra options or a different approach.

    For example MvC2 ditched two attack buttons, which reduces your attack options, but it makes sense since you get two dedicated assist buttons and the huge array of options that system adds in compensation.

    Or the Real Bout series that has a very generous input buffer and kara cancel window that make inputs very easy, but you also get interesting kara techniques and feints due to those changes.

    From what I've seen so far this just looks like Street Fighter II except that it not only tries to erradicate execution as much as possible, which by itself is a mistake since it's an integral part of the genre and adds depth and variety to it, it also removes a lot of necessary options without a compensation.

  • crotchpunchacrotchpuncha Joined: Posts: 21,611
    edited November 2016
    That Punch Planet game looks like shit.
    It's not the end of the world, but you can see it from here.
  • Raging_ZoroarkRaging_Zoroark Disgraceful! Joined: Posts: 1,428
    I never thought that I would see a fighting game that makes teabagging impossible.
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  • keo-baskeo-bas Joined: Posts: 1,975
    BossBrown wrote: »

    Like I said there are some titles that have done the button reductionist method well with some real good ideas but none have gotten the game 100% right including PB I think Trajais will be the first to get everything right.

    Can I ask that you explained PB desighn flaws? I can only think of them in regards to PB Vanilla and Another codes. Hence why I said PB extra because that game polished its issue.
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  • PSYCH0J0SHPSYCH0J0SH Joined: Posts: 5,469
    edited November 2016
    d3v wrote: »
    Last I checked, there's no high-low blocking in Smash either. It's not like you can crouch with Mario and then sweep a Luigi who's blocking high.

    Crouching in Smash is mainly used to cancel dashes and allow things like sliding Smash attacks. Other than that it's not used for much. It can be used to avoid some projectiles but some characters are simply too large to avoid them.
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  • PSYCH0J0SHPSYCH0J0SH Joined: Posts: 5,469
    That Punch Planet game looks like shit.

    At least it has a cohesive art style that doesn't look like some CGI student's first-week homework.
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  • StoneDrumStoneDrum Joined: Posts: 1,096
    i think we should give this game a chance. sure, it plays with the base model of fighters and sure it looks to be very simple, but i still think it can end up being a good and fun game. i can see why people would hate on it, but i dont think that making a game that anyone can play will do anything but potentially help the genre grow more. Like I said, ive tried to get my friends in to fighters but they literally cant do the motions, and so they miss out on one of the coolest and rewarding genres. I think complex and hard to master fighters will never die, so we should welcome this with an open mind. It could be a great thing. Don't know why there's so much negativity here.
  • MuttonmanMuttonman Joined: Posts: 2,862
    PSYCH0J0SH wrote: »
    That Punch Planet game looks like shit.

    At least it has a cohesive art style that doesn't look like some CGI student's first-week homework.

    That's not what artstyle means. At all. There's a cohesive artstyle here, it's just that it's applied to in progress PS1 models
  • CottoneyesCottoneyes Joined: Posts: 61
    I'm not going to bash this game too much and I do like the character designs of Yomi, but it's something about outdoing other people with simplicity that bothers me.

    While I understand that fighting games are niche and somewhat hard to get into without dedicated practice I just feel that lowering the bar isolates vets of the genre and often times just makes games more dull. I always just thought that making controls simple to flock in newer casual players was somewhat unproductive. If someone is willing to learn any game they'll have to put time into it and if it's a casual player they generally aren't going to go into any of these training modes, tutorials, or whatever video showcases that's provided for very long and then the game starts to lose it's spark for them. After that they just jump into whatever "quick play" game they have and won't give it much time later.

    Now for people who like putting more work into their fighting games won't even have too much to work and it'll get stale really quickly. I'm not asking for some late 90's fighting game with giant movelists for every character but I do like to have enough wiggle room to do enough that won't boil down to a boring neutral game with like 4 BnB combos for each character.

    I'll still be willing to try it, but I don't see myself being too into it even with "Deceptively simple" gameplay.
  • PSYCH0J0SHPSYCH0J0SH Joined: Posts: 5,469
    edited November 2016
    Muttonman wrote: »
    PSYCH0J0SH wrote: »
    That Punch Planet game looks like shit.

    At least it has a cohesive art style that doesn't look like some CGI student's first-week homework.

    That's not what artstyle means. At all. There's a cohesive artstyle here, it's just that it's applied to in progress PS1 models

    On second glance, I guess you're right, but I thought the stages looked really amateurish. Punch Planet has an art style that it uses effectively, everything looks the way it's supposed to look in that game, whereas something like the snow field stage in this game's reveal trailer just looks like it was made in a single day. Something is missing from the stage but it's hard to say what. It just looks bland but it doesn't look like there's much you can add to it. I don't see how more development time will make it look better.
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  • BossBrownBossBrown Joined: Posts: 98
    keo-bas wrote: »
    BossBrown wrote: »

    Like I said there are some titles that have done the button reductionist method well with some real good ideas but none have gotten the game 100% right including PB I think Trajais will be the first to get everything right.

    Can I ask that you explained PB desighn flaws? I can only think of them in regards to PB Vanilla and Another codes. Hence why I said PB extra because that game polished its issue.

    being brutually honest Extra I did not play much but I remember the use of stances not being as greatly adapted to a wide range of use over the characters and the meter having 2 much on it from the cancels to ex to overdrive to super(which this game kind of made it work but generally ramming so much onto meter limits options and there was alot on here) leading to things such as supers literally just being a punish (but at least they have a bit of reason to show). Those are the thing I would pick out which the main problem with it all limited the unique things about this game shining which is why I think it got alot less attention then it deserved, great game and as far as it is concerned as a 2D fighter solid. Where Trajais is concerned there is alot of fine coming going on in every aspect of the game not just its gameplay but the whole shabang which is why I am so certain about it and they really have taken the right philosphies of game design to push it right and I see it in what they have shown so far.
  • BossBrownBossBrown Joined: Posts: 98
    I understand how important is to bring new players into the FGC, but I don't think that making games like this will really help. Contrary to the common belief, motions and combos are the easy part of the fighting games. Spacing, AA'ing, blocking and reacting to things is much, MUCH harder than throwing fireballs or performing a ground strings. This game goes further by removing the high/low mixup, but I feel that this will make more harm than good for two reasons. First, attack/throw is already a difficult mixup for someone who's not used to FGs. Two, newbs don't have the patience to just block and play a reaction based game. They want to press buttons and will lose to zoning/super armor anyway.

    The reason why Smash Brothers is so popular among children have little to do with simplified motions. Of course, this helps a lot, but what really make people to play this game more than once is that there are many things to do in the game. You can play alone vs the machine, you can call up to 7 friends to play simutaneously, you can play the game's story/arcade mode, you can play with the alternate game modes (coin/stamina), you can face more than one AI controlled opponents, etc. By the time a smash player decides to enter the competitive scene, he/she will already have many hours of gameplay and will have a good notion on how to play this game and this will help. Of course, there's still a lot to learn in order to have a chance on the competitive side of the game, but this person already love it, so, this won't be a problem.

    As much as I hate Mortal Kombat, I must admit that MKX does it right. The game have a good amount of single player content and this helps to bring people into the FGC. The amount of players that keep playing the game competitively is much smaller than the people that buy it just for the casual fun. But that's a reality that we have to face. Very few individuals are willing to put time and effort into video games and no amount of accessible fighting games will change this.

    What I want to say on this long ass post is that games like this one will likely to fail like Rising Thunder. Casual players will get bored of getting stomped and will not bother to learn tatics like tick throws and frame traps and veteran players will just skip it because is too simple for them. For me, the ideal fighting game is the one that have both single player content to casuals enjoy and learn while playing and deep gameplay that will keep veterans interested on it. I really hope I'm wrong and this game succeeds, bringing a lot of new players to the FGC, because I love fighting games and I really want them to grow. But I'm not having much faith on this.

    Some real talk there. This is not a game that is trying to do some new or unique it is just taking the standard type of fighters and as I said before removing large elements from the game essentially making it less and less of a fighter altogether if they continue this route can we even call it a fighter. A I said there is a big difference between changing the control scheme using reductionist levels and simply just removing big elements of a genre you are doing absolutely nothing new in the latter being bad.

    I will say it may be a bit cold to say rising thunder failed due to how it was being made simply because its production stopped for other reasons not due to something like decreasing popularity but this type of game will definitely attract a new strand of gamers rather then your FG players and crowd this I had said as well. You are definitely spot on tho zoroark otherwise except hating on MK u a silly 4 dat bun u fam UMK3 4 LYFE and MK universe 4 LYFE MY G MY DON SAFE!!!!!
  • UlrikUlrik Joined: Posts: 28
    Hey, newbie here. To fighting games, at least.

    I've been a "serious gamer" for over 20 years now, even if my games of choice have been board games and miniature games more than computer games (not that I haven't played more than my share of the latter as well). I believe I'm squarely in the target audience for this, more than "kids" or "casual gamers". I've played fighting games, but not beyond the button mashing stage. I've never been interested in putting in the hours to learn complex special moves. Plenty of other games to hold my interest, like serious board games, or relaxing computer games like WoW, Mass Effect and recently Overwatch.
    Spacing, AA'ing, blocking and reacting to things is much, MUCH harder than throwing fireballs or performing a ground strings. This game goes further by removing the high/low mixup, but I feel that this will make more harm than good for two reasons. First, attack/throw is already a difficult mixup for someone who's not used to FGs. Two, newbs don't have the patience to just block and play a reaction based game. They want to press buttons and will lose to zoning/super armor anyway.

    This, however, interests me. As a board gamer the mental aspects are much, much more intriguing than rote button pushing and training my reflexes to consistently perform specials. I've got plenty of patience to block and react if that's what it takes, though. I read Sirlin's blog for his board game content (he has lots of interesting stuff to say about board games as well), and his descriptions of fighting games, of the hidden information/yomi/ read aspect, of zoning, spacing, of the r-s-p element of attack-block-throw looked seriously interesting. Something that looked like a very fun challenge. Then I played some random SF2 matches and it's all mashing buttons again. Where's the interesting decisions, the reads? Behind a huge wall of rote execution practice, that's where. That's not for me.

    I tried a couple hours of the FS alpha, and already I feel like I'm in way deeper than I've ever been in a fighting game. For me, this IS the holy grail of fighting games. I think there are more people like me. Most of us will never "graduate" to "real" fighting games like Guilty Gear, but the chances are a lot higher once we've gotten a taste of high level fighting games.

    FS will appeal to "kids", yes, that are drawn to the spectacular moves they can perform easily. But the sceptics are probably right that it won't last. It might have a longer life as a beer and pretzels game for game night on the couch, because anybody can pick it up and start doing dragon punches or pile drivers. But long term, serious players will have a large contigent of people like me - long term gamers who have no interest in the execution aspect of fighting games, but who are drawn into the tactical aspect. And some of us might eventually give "real" fighting games another chance.
  • HawkingbirdHawkingbird I am thou...thou art I Joined: Posts: 26,302
    edited November 2016
    BossBrown wrote: »
    I understand how important is to bring new players into the FGC, but I don't think that making games like this will really help. Contrary to the common belief, motions and combos are the easy part of the fighting games. Spacing, AA'ing, blocking and reacting to things is much, MUCH harder than throwing fireballs or performing a ground strings. This game goes further by removing the high/low mixup, but I feel that this will make more harm than good for two reasons. First, attack/throw is already a difficult mixup for someone who's not used to FGs. Two, newbs don't have the patience to just block and play a reaction based game. They want to press buttons and will lose to zoning/super armor anyway.

    The reason why Smash Brothers is so popular among children have little to do with simplified motions. Of course, this helps a lot, but what really make people to play this game more than once is that there are many things to do in the game. You can play alone vs the machine, you can call up to 7 friends to play simutaneously, you can play the game's story/arcade mode, you can play with the alternate game modes (coin/stamina), you can face more than one AI controlled opponents, etc. By the time a smash player decides to enter the competitive scene, he/she will already have many hours of gameplay and will have a good notion on how to play this game and this will help. Of course, there's still a lot to learn in order to have a chance on the competitive side of the game, but this person already love it, so, this won't be a problem.

    As much as I hate Mortal Kombat, I must admit that MKX does it right. The game have a good amount of single player content and this helps to bring people into the FGC. The amount of players that keep playing the game competitively is much smaller than the people that buy it just for the casual fun. But that's a reality that we have to face. Very few individuals are willing to put time and effort into video games and no amount of accessible fighting games will change this.

    What I want to say on this long ass post is that games like this one will likely to fail like Rising Thunder. Casual players will get bored of getting stomped and will not bother to learn tatics like tick throws and frame traps and veteran players will just skip it because is too simple for them. For me, the ideal fighting game is the one that have both single player content to casuals enjoy and learn while playing and deep gameplay that will keep veterans interested on it. I really hope I'm wrong and this game succeeds, bringing a lot of new players to the FGC, because I love fighting games and I really want them to grow. But I'm not having much faith on this.

    Some real talk there. This is not a game that is trying to do some new or unique it is just taking the standard type of fighters and as I said before removing large elements from the game essentially making it less and less of a fighter altogether if they continue this route can we even call it a fighter. A I said there is a big difference between changing the control scheme using reductionist levels and simply just removing big elements of a genre you are doing absolutely nothing new in the latter being bad.

    I will say it may be a bit cold to say rising thunder failed due to how it was being made simply because its production stopped for other reasons not due to something like decreasing popularity but this type of game will definitely attract a new strand of gamers rather then your FG players and crowd this I had said as well. You are definitely spot on tho zoroark otherwise except hating on MK u a silly 4 dat bun u fam UMK3 4 LYFE and MK universe 4 LYFE MY G MY DON SAFE!!!!!

    Rising Thunder didn't fail. It's developer was brought out by Riot Games and they had them shut down the game to work on another project.
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  • keo-baskeo-bas Joined: Posts: 1,975
    BossBrown wrote: »
    keo-bas wrote: »
    BossBrown wrote: »

    Like I said there are some titles that have done the button reductionist method well with some real good ideas but none have gotten the game 100% right including PB I think Trajais will be the first to get everything right.

    Can I ask that you explained PB desighn flaws? I can only think of them in regards to PB Vanilla and Another codes. Hence why I said PB extra because that game polished its issue.

    being brutually honest Extra I did not play much but I remember the use of stances not being as greatly adapted to a wide range of use over the characters and the meter having 2 much on it from the cancels to ex to overdrive to super(which this game kind of made it work but generally ramming so much onto meter limits options and there was alot on here) leading to things such as supers literally just being a punish (but at least they have a bit of reason to show). Those are the thing I would pick out which the main problem with it all limited the unique things about this game shining which is why I think it got alot less attention then it deserved, great game and as far as it is concerned as a 2D fighter solid. Where Trajais is concerned there is alot of fine coming going on in every aspect of the game not just its gameplay but the whole shabang which is why I am so certain about it and they really have taken the right philosphies of game design to push it right and I see it in what they have shown so far.

    Admittedly my knowledge on the first game is limited due to me having it on hack system and was never able to get updater patch. As for style they don't change how your character works fundamentally but your mechanics (reflection, Counter burst, Nullify attack, Gaurd cancel,overdrive). Their further distinguishes but style primary modify mechanics.

    All option had their purpose and none overshadow over another. EX specials function as ubniversal AUB( universal alpha counter in extra). Emergency Mode as momentum shifter, Phantom breaker (supers) were your unburstable damage (except when opponent had 200%), and overdrive as Psuedo roman cancel that health regenerates with other ultility.
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  • CronopioCronopio ST Joined: Posts: 2,131
    Hopefully you get interested in moving to other fighting games afterwards because execution is one of the biggest aspects that make the genre work. Fighters are about strategy and execution (footsies are also heavily execution based too so you won't be able to avoid it entirely), for pure strategy there are better options than fighting games.
  • Raging_ZoroarkRaging_Zoroark Disgraceful! Joined: Posts: 1,428
    edited November 2016
    Rising Thunder didn't fail. It's developer was brought out by Riot Games and they had them shut down the game to work on another project.

    Yeah, I exaggerated a bit. When I said "fail" I was thinking on how the game didn't bring a lot of people to the genre, since the matchmaking was becoming more and more empty. I tried to bring new people to the game without success and I saw a lot of veterans of the genre bashing the game. For a game with simplified inputs that's also free to play I expecteda lot more people playing it.

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  • BossBrownBossBrown Joined: Posts: 98
    My enjoyment of rising thunder to be brutally honest was more to do with the fact they were robots lol.

    As for PB use of each option was overshadowed by character rather then the elements itself even there is a little of that still. It would be too harsh to say it made the system linear but there were definitely set things to do with each character rather then the intended purpose that being a constant switch up between the abilities it was all a bit bloated I wonder if a better idea would of been to seperate the characters be fighting style as a class rather then whole switch around then again it would just be the same really just without something seeming wasteful plus of course I am sure there was an odd character that used it all so no idea what you would have to do there
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,752 mod
    Rising Thunder didn't fail. It's developer was brought out by Riot Games and they had them shut down the game to work on another project.

    Yeah, I exaggerated a bit. When I said "fail" I was thinking on how the matchmaking was becoming more and more empty. I tried to bring new people to the game without success and I saw a lot of veterans of the genre bashing the game. For a game with simplified inputs that's also free to play I expected more people playing it.
    I don't think quality had anything to do with the game dropping off. It's just the usual thing where something that isn't a big name doesn't get as big a following. The lack of offline certainly didn't help.

    Als for every "veteran" bashing the game, it seemed to be that there was also another who actually enjoyed it. There definitely was a subset of players who did enjoy the game. That said, I think there's something to be said about the players who did appreciate the game, and those who didn't. It seemed to me at least that people of similar age and/or background as Seth did enjoy the game. And most of the criticism about the game seemed less about the one button inputs, but of things like the hidden cooldowns, etc.

    Me I loved the game. Chell was my favorite new fighting game character of 2015. Made me remember Old Sagat.
  • KeckaKecka Psycho Crushing that booty Joined: Posts: 1,727
    Cottoneyes wrote: »
    I'm not going to bash this game too much and I do like the character designs of Yomi, but it's something about outdoing other people with simplicity that bothers me.

    While I understand that fighting games are niche and somewhat hard to get into without dedicated practice I just feel that lowering the bar isolates vets of the genre and often times just makes games more dull. I always just thought that making controls simple to flock in newer casual players was somewhat unproductive. If someone is willing to learn any game they'll have to put time into it and if it's a casual player they generally aren't going to go into any of these training modes, tutorials, or whatever video showcases that's provided for very long and then the game starts to lose it's spark for them. After that they just jump into whatever "quick play" game they have and won't give it much time later.

    Now for people who like putting more work into their fighting games won't even have too much to work and it'll get stale really quickly. I'm not asking for some late 90's fighting game with giant movelists for every character but I do like to have enough wiggle room to do enough that won't boil down to a boring neutral game with like 4 BnB combos for each character.

    I'll still be willing to try it, but I don't see myself being too into it even with "Deceptively simple" gameplay.

    Ideally, the idea is to make controls themselves simple enough that you don't need to sit and practice inputs before you can even begin to learn the fundamentals, while still keeping the tactics like frame-traps, footsies, oki and mix-ups intact. Which I think is a solid idea. One frame links and difficult inputs aren't what separates a pro from a scrub. It's the understanding of how to play the game itself. I'm pretty sure 99.99% of the people who post on SRK can do fireball/DP/super motions reliably at will, and yet some of us are way better than others, so obviously execution isn't the main difference between a good player and a bad one (even if Guile loops and similar monster combos prove that execution definitely is a factor). From that standpoint, it makes sense that there's no real point in having to do a motion for a fireball rather than just press a button.

    The issue with this is that you still have to make the core game deep enough that people will be interested in discovering new tech. If we just look at a DP input in and of itself, it seems pointless compared to do the f, d, df motion when you could just press a button. But even ignoring the obvious issue that even if the motion is easy for a semi-competent player, it still takes slightly longer than just pressing a button, there's also the issue of the motion allowing other tech to be discovered. Auto-correcting DPs and DP option selects are only possible because the motion is there. A lot of fighting game tech is a consequence of holes in systems existing, and are generally unintended by the developers (in the sense of them not knowing about it, at the very least). Even if you include complicated cancel mechanics and sub-systems, half the fun is people discovering weird shit to "break" the system, and your game kind of has to accommodate that. Hell, I'm fairly sure half the popularity of Marvel is because you can bust those games right the fuck up.

    So while execution isn't necessarily mandatory for a good, deep fighting game, I think there has to be some compensation for the fact that you're losing out on the tech that comes as a consequence of having motion inputs. Also, I think the somewhat lukewarm reception for Rising Thunder might've been the all robot cast. The gameplay itself was solid, even if it felt like the mechanics needed a lot more tweaking. But while I like robots, some variety would've been nice.
    I suck dicks at fighting games.

    I also suck dicks. I don't think these two facts are related.
  • keo-baskeo-bas Joined: Posts: 1,975
    BossBrown wrote: »
    My enjoyment of rising thunder to be brutally honest was more to do with the fact they were robots lol.

    As for PB use of each option was overshadowed by character rather then the elements itself even there is a little of that still. It would be too harsh to say it made the system linear but there were definitely set things to do with each character rather then the intended purpose that being a constant switch up between the abilities it was all a bit bloated I wonder if a better idea would of been to seperate the characters be fighting style as a class rather then whole switch around then again it would just be the same really just without something seeming wasteful plus of course I am sure there was an odd character that used it all so no idea what you would have to do there
    Now I know I have no idea what your talking about. But I'll leave this discussion to PB thread or pm.

    As for fantasy strike, going to just play the waiting game and see how it unfolds.
    Seikuken Disciple
    "That Phantom Breaker Guy"
  • SaitsuSaitsu When a Kid, Becomes a Legend Joined: Posts: 34,907
    It's easy to just look at this game on a superficial level and say what kind of "good" it's doing for casuals who want to get into FGs by simplifying the controls making it much easier to get into the game on a deeper level and thus wanting to get into fighters more.

    The issue is that you completely ignore what even simple execution requirements do for Fighting Games. Bringing up the SRK Motion debate again, let's not even talk about the Option Selects or the Auto-Corrects. Let's just talk reaction time. In a game like Fantasy Strike where you only need one button for a special it'd be absurdly easy to react to a jump, press a button and swat it out of the air. But in a normal FG, you need the DP motion. That travel time to do the motion also shortens the amount of time you have to react. Not only do you need a small bit of execution, which most anyone can learn with just slight practice, but you need the increased reaction time to reliably get the motion out fast enough to make the AA.

    Timing is the biggest thing you remove by oversimplifying controls. Looking for the split second to get in around a zoning characters moves, knowing that little window you have to reliably go in on a charge character, being able to predict an opponent's thought process by the way they're moving, being able to fake out an opponent by the way you move. Those are nuances you lose. Nuances you learn inherently, without anyone actually teaching you the game.

    Honestly, real talk, Yomi probably will end up teaching casual players how to play FGs better than Fantasy Strike itself will.
    PSN: Saitsuofleaves SF5 Tag: Saitsu  Baby Steps to Giant Strides
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  • KeckaKecka Psycho Crushing that booty Joined: Posts: 1,727
    Saitsu wrote: »
    It's easy to just look at this game on a superficial level and say what kind of "good" it's doing for casuals who want to get into FGs by simplifying the controls making it much easier to get into the game on a deeper level and thus wanting to get into fighters more.

    The issue is that you completely ignore what even simple execution requirements do for Fighting Games. Bringing up the SRK Motion debate again, let's not even talk about the Option Selects or the Auto-Corrects. Let's just talk reaction time. In a game like Fantasy Strike where you only need one button for a special it'd be absurdly easy to react to a jump, press a button and swat it out of the air. But in a normal FG, you need the DP motion. That travel time to do the motion also shortens the amount of time you have to react. Not only do you need a small bit of execution, which most anyone can learn with just slight practice, but you need the increased reaction time to reliably get the motion out fast enough to make the AA.

    Timing is the biggest thing you remove by oversimplifying controls. Looking for the split second to get in around a zoning characters moves, knowing that little window you have to reliably go in on a charge character, being able to predict an opponent's thought process by the way they're moving, being able to fake out an opponent by the way you move. Those are nuances you lose. Nuances you learn inherently, without anyone actually teaching you the game.

    Honestly, real talk, Yomi probably will end up teaching casual players how to play FGs better than Fantasy Strike itself will.

    Thing is, you can always compensate for that in various ways, whether it's a Rising Thunder-style cooldown, artificially adding start-up or input delay roughly corresponding to the DP input, or simply by making DPs more like AA command normals. With the tech, it's harder to compensate. If you don't have a DP motion, you can't really option select with a reverse DP or make it auto-correct, since the move will either do it on its own when you press the button or not regardless of what you do. I think the most important thing for any fighting game at a high level is to have a system that gives players enough freedom to do stuff the developers didn't think of, because if everything's discovered before it's even released, the game is already "solved" and it's just a matter of memorizing everything.
    I suck dicks at fighting games.

    I also suck dicks. I don't think these two facts are related.
  • BossBrownBossBrown Joined: Posts: 98
    keo-bas wrote: »
    BossBrown wrote: »
    My enjoyment of rising thunder to be brutally honest was more to do with the fact they were robots lol.

    As for PB use of each option was overshadowed by character rather then the elements itself even there is a little of that still. It would be too harsh to say it made the system linear but there were definitely set things to do with each character rather then the intended purpose that being a constant switch up between the abilities it was all a bit bloated I wonder if a better idea would of been to seperate the characters be fighting style as a class rather then whole switch around then again it would just be the same really just without something seeming wasteful plus of course I am sure there was an odd character that used it all so no idea what you would have to do there
    Now I know I have no idea what your talking about. But I'll leave this discussion to PB thread or pm.

    As for fantasy strike, going to just play the waiting game and see how it unfolds.

    Soz I did not make myself clear mate
  • CronopioCronopio ST Joined: Posts: 2,131
    edited November 2016
    Saitsu wrote: »
    It's easy to just look at this game on a superficial level and say what kind of "good" it's doing for casuals who want to get into FGs by simplifying the controls making it much easier to get into the game on a deeper level and thus wanting to get into fighters more.

    The issue is that you completely ignore what even simple execution requirements do for Fighting Games. Bringing up the SRK Motion debate again, let's not even talk about the Option Selects or the Auto-Corrects. Let's just talk reaction time. In a game like Fantasy Strike where you only need one button for a special it'd be absurdly easy to react to a jump, press a button and swat it out of the air. But in a normal FG, you need the DP motion. That travel time to do the motion also shortens the amount of time you have to react. Not only do you need a small bit of execution, which most anyone can learn with just slight practice, but you need the increased reaction time to reliably get the motion out fast enough to make the AA.

    Timing is the biggest thing you remove by oversimplifying controls. Looking for the split second to get in around a zoning characters moves, knowing that little window you have to reliably go in on a charge character, being able to predict an opponent's thought process by the way they're moving, being able to fake out an opponent by the way you move. Those are nuances you lose. Nuances you learn inherently, without anyone actually teaching you the game.

    Honestly, real talk, Yomi probably will end up teaching casual players how to play FGs better than Fantasy Strike itself will.

    Yeah, changes to execution don't happen in a vacuum and they affect how the game plays. Even adapting the moves to have more startup or adding cooldown won't fix the fact that you can react much better with single button presses than with a more complex motion, that also limits when you can have the motion ready.

    Here you will be able to DP from walking backwards and having a block ready, for example. Big change from having to let back inputs go with a traditional DP motion. Sonic Booms have fast recovery because you have to charge it, and you can't also have a Flashkick ready with it on screen or walking forward. This variety in controls is lost with this setup. Option selects will be much easier with single button presses too.

    The simplification doesn't end with inputs though, you have only one normal button and only two specials, which extremely limits your options.

    Unless there's a solution to these consequences of simplified inputs (and lack of crouch) I expect the game to turn out extremely defensive.
  • MuttonmanMuttonman Joined: Posts: 2,862
    Cronopio wrote: »
    Saitsu wrote: »
    It's easy to just look at this game on a superficial level and say what kind of "good" it's doing for casuals who want to get into FGs by simplifying the controls making it much easier to get into the game on a deeper level and thus wanting to get into fighters more.

    The issue is that you completely ignore what even simple execution requirements do for Fighting Games. Bringing up the SRK Motion debate again, let's not even talk about the Option Selects or the Auto-Corrects. Let's just talk reaction time. In a game like Fantasy Strike where you only need one button for a special it'd be absurdly easy to react to a jump, press a button and swat it out of the air. But in a normal FG, you need the DP motion. That travel time to do the motion also shortens the amount of time you have to react. Not only do you need a small bit of execution, which most anyone can learn with just slight practice, but you need the increased reaction time to reliably get the motion out fast enough to make the AA.

    Timing is the biggest thing you remove by oversimplifying controls. Looking for the split second to get in around a zoning characters moves, knowing that little window you have to reliably go in on a charge character, being able to predict an opponent's thought process by the way they're moving, being able to fake out an opponent by the way you move. Those are nuances you lose. Nuances you learn inherently, without anyone actually teaching you the game.

    Honestly, real talk, Yomi probably will end up teaching casual players how to play FGs better than Fantasy Strike itself will.

    Yeah, changes to execution don't happen in a vacuum and they affect how the game plays. Even adapting the moves to have more startup or adding cooldown won't fix the fact that you can react much better with single button presses than with a more complex motion, that also limits when you can have the motion ready.

    Here you will be able to DP from walking backwards and having a block ready, for example. Big change from having to let back inputs go with a traditional DP motion. Sonic Booms have fast recovery because you have to charge it, and you can't also have a Flashkick ready with it on screen or walking forward. This variety in controls is lost with this setup. Option selects will be much easier with single button presses too.

    The simplification doesn't end with inputs though, you have only one normal button and only two specials, which extremely limits your options.

    Unless there's a solution to these consequences of simplified inputs (and lack of crouch) I expect the game to turn out extremely defensive.

    From what I can tell he's basically mimicked charge motions pretty well; the character has a meter that charges when holding either back or neutral. You can only use your specials when it is full and it uses the whole meter.

    That said, I think Sirlin misses the fundamental aspect that makes fighting games hard to get into. It's not so much the controls as it is the movement. Moving around in fighting games is weird as hell compared to anything else. Compare it to platformers, which Smash takes after. That's a genre people have been playing for decades, and thus the controls move over. You hold down a direction and you start running, you can adjust your arc mid jump, there's momentum, so on and so forth. Even in platformers you generally don't get double tap to dash, you have either hold or a button press.

    That's a hard chasm to cross, because fighting game movement is integral to the genre.
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