Fantasy Strike - easy to execute fighting game

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  • MuttonmanMuttonman Joined: Posts: 2,767
    PSYCH0J0SH wrote: »
    That Punch Planet game looks like shit.

    At least it has a cohesive art style that doesn't look like some CGI student's first-week homework.

    That's not what artstyle means. At all. There's a cohesive artstyle here, it's just that it's applied to in progress PS1 models
  • CottoneyesCottoneyes Joined: Posts: 61
    I'm not going to bash this game too much and I do like the character designs of Yomi, but it's something about outdoing other people with simplicity that bothers me.

    While I understand that fighting games are niche and somewhat hard to get into without dedicated practice I just feel that lowering the bar isolates vets of the genre and often times just makes games more dull. I always just thought that making controls simple to flock in newer casual players was somewhat unproductive. If someone is willing to learn any game they'll have to put time into it and if it's a casual player they generally aren't going to go into any of these training modes, tutorials, or whatever video showcases that's provided for very long and then the game starts to lose it's spark for them. After that they just jump into whatever "quick play" game they have and won't give it much time later.

    Now for people who like putting more work into their fighting games won't even have too much to work and it'll get stale really quickly. I'm not asking for some late 90's fighting game with giant movelists for every character but I do like to have enough wiggle room to do enough that won't boil down to a boring neutral game with like 4 BnB combos for each character.

    I'll still be willing to try it, but I don't see myself being too into it even with "Deceptively simple" gameplay.
  • PSYCH0J0SHPSYCH0J0SH Joined: Posts: 5,291
    edited November 2016
    Muttonman wrote: »
    PSYCH0J0SH wrote: »
    That Punch Planet game looks like shit.

    At least it has a cohesive art style that doesn't look like some CGI student's first-week homework.

    That's not what artstyle means. At all. There's a cohesive artstyle here, it's just that it's applied to in progress PS1 models

    On second glance, I guess you're right, but I thought the stages looked really amateurish. Punch Planet has an art style that it uses effectively, everything looks the way it's supposed to look in that game, whereas something like the snow field stage in this game's reveal trailer just looks like it was made in a single day. Something is missing from the stage but it's hard to say what. It just looks bland but it doesn't look like there's much you can add to it. I don't see how more development time will make it look better.
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  • BossBrownBossBrown Joined: Posts: 78
    keo-bas wrote: »
    BossBrown wrote: »

    Like I said there are some titles that have done the button reductionist method well with some real good ideas but none have gotten the game 100% right including PB I think Trajais will be the first to get everything right.

    Can I ask that you explained PB desighn flaws? I can only think of them in regards to PB Vanilla and Another codes. Hence why I said PB extra because that game polished its issue.

    being brutually honest Extra I did not play much but I remember the use of stances not being as greatly adapted to a wide range of use over the characters and the meter having 2 much on it from the cancels to ex to overdrive to super(which this game kind of made it work but generally ramming so much onto meter limits options and there was alot on here) leading to things such as supers literally just being a punish (but at least they have a bit of reason to show). Those are the thing I would pick out which the main problem with it all limited the unique things about this game shining which is why I think it got alot less attention then it deserved, great game and as far as it is concerned as a 2D fighter solid. Where Trajais is concerned there is alot of fine coming going on in every aspect of the game not just its gameplay but the whole shabang which is why I am so certain about it and they really have taken the right philosphies of game design to push it right and I see it in what they have shown so far.
  • BossBrownBossBrown Joined: Posts: 78
    I understand how important is to bring new players into the FGC, but I don't think that making games like this will really help. Contrary to the common belief, motions and combos are the easy part of the fighting games. Spacing, AA'ing, blocking and reacting to things is much, MUCH harder than throwing fireballs or performing a ground strings. This game goes further by removing the high/low mixup, but I feel that this will make more harm than good for two reasons. First, attack/throw is already a difficult mixup for someone who's not used to FGs. Two, newbs don't have the patience to just block and play a reaction based game. They want to press buttons and will lose to zoning/super armor anyway.

    The reason why Smash Brothers is so popular among children have little to do with simplified motions. Of course, this helps a lot, but what really make people to play this game more than once is that there are many things to do in the game. You can play alone vs the machine, you can call up to 7 friends to play simutaneously, you can play the game's story/arcade mode, you can play with the alternate game modes (coin/stamina), you can face more than one AI controlled opponents, etc. By the time a smash player decides to enter the competitive scene, he/she will already have many hours of gameplay and will have a good notion on how to play this game and this will help. Of course, there's still a lot to learn in order to have a chance on the competitive side of the game, but this person already love it, so, this won't be a problem.

    As much as I hate Mortal Kombat, I must admit that MKX does it right. The game have a good amount of single player content and this helps to bring people into the FGC. The amount of players that keep playing the game competitively is much smaller than the people that buy it just for the casual fun. But that's a reality that we have to face. Very few individuals are willing to put time and effort into video games and no amount of accessible fighting games will change this.

    What I want to say on this long ass post is that games like this one will likely to fail like Rising Thunder. Casual players will get bored of getting stomped and will not bother to learn tatics like tick throws and frame traps and veteran players will just skip it because is too simple for them. For me, the ideal fighting game is the one that have both single player content to casuals enjoy and learn while playing and deep gameplay that will keep veterans interested on it. I really hope I'm wrong and this game succeeds, bringing a lot of new players to the FGC, because I love fighting games and I really want them to grow. But I'm not having much faith on this.

    Some real talk there. This is not a game that is trying to do some new or unique it is just taking the standard type of fighters and as I said before removing large elements from the game essentially making it less and less of a fighter altogether if they continue this route can we even call it a fighter. A I said there is a big difference between changing the control scheme using reductionist levels and simply just removing big elements of a genre you are doing absolutely nothing new in the latter being bad.

    I will say it may be a bit cold to say rising thunder failed due to how it was being made simply because its production stopped for other reasons not due to something like decreasing popularity but this type of game will definitely attract a new strand of gamers rather then your FG players and crowd this I had said as well. You are definitely spot on tho zoroark otherwise except hating on MK u a silly 4 dat bun u fam UMK3 4 LYFE and MK universe 4 LYFE MY G MY DON SAFE!!!!!
  • UlrikUlrik Joined: Posts: 4
    Hey, newbie here. To fighting games, at least.

    I've been a "serious gamer" for over 20 years now, even if my games of choice have been board games and miniature games more than computer games (not that I haven't played more than my share of the latter as well). I believe I'm squarely in the target audience for this, more than "kids" or "casual gamers". I've played fighting games, but not beyond the button mashing stage. I've never been interested in putting in the hours to learn complex special moves. Plenty of other games to hold my interest, like serious board games, or relaxing computer games like WoW, Mass Effect and recently Overwatch.
    Spacing, AA'ing, blocking and reacting to things is much, MUCH harder than throwing fireballs or performing a ground strings. This game goes further by removing the high/low mixup, but I feel that this will make more harm than good for two reasons. First, attack/throw is already a difficult mixup for someone who's not used to FGs. Two, newbs don't have the patience to just block and play a reaction based game. They want to press buttons and will lose to zoning/super armor anyway.

    This, however, interests me. As a board gamer the mental aspects are much, much more intriguing than rote button pushing and training my reflexes to consistently perform specials. I've got plenty of patience to block and react if that's what it takes, though. I read Sirlin's blog for his board game content (he has lots of interesting stuff to say about board games as well), and his descriptions of fighting games, of the hidden information/yomi/ read aspect, of zoning, spacing, of the r-s-p element of attack-block-throw looked seriously interesting. Something that looked like a very fun challenge. Then I played some random SF2 matches and it's all mashing buttons again. Where's the interesting decisions, the reads? Behind a huge wall of rote execution practice, that's where. That's not for me.

    I tried a couple hours of the FS alpha, and already I feel like I'm in way deeper than I've ever been in a fighting game. For me, this IS the holy grail of fighting games. I think there are more people like me. Most of us will never "graduate" to "real" fighting games like Guilty Gear, but the chances are a lot higher once we've gotten a taste of high level fighting games.

    FS will appeal to "kids", yes, that are drawn to the spectacular moves they can perform easily. But the sceptics are probably right that it won't last. It might have a longer life as a beer and pretzels game for game night on the couch, because anybody can pick it up and start doing dragon punches or pile drivers. But long term, serious players will have a large contigent of people like me - long term gamers who have no interest in the execution aspect of fighting games, but who are drawn into the tactical aspect. And some of us might eventually give "real" fighting games another chance.
  • HawkingbirdHawkingbird I am thou...thou art I Joined: Posts: 24,983
    edited November 2016
    BossBrown wrote: »
    I understand how important is to bring new players into the FGC, but I don't think that making games like this will really help. Contrary to the common belief, motions and combos are the easy part of the fighting games. Spacing, AA'ing, blocking and reacting to things is much, MUCH harder than throwing fireballs or performing a ground strings. This game goes further by removing the high/low mixup, but I feel that this will make more harm than good for two reasons. First, attack/throw is already a difficult mixup for someone who's not used to FGs. Two, newbs don't have the patience to just block and play a reaction based game. They want to press buttons and will lose to zoning/super armor anyway.

    The reason why Smash Brothers is so popular among children have little to do with simplified motions. Of course, this helps a lot, but what really make people to play this game more than once is that there are many things to do in the game. You can play alone vs the machine, you can call up to 7 friends to play simutaneously, you can play the game's story/arcade mode, you can play with the alternate game modes (coin/stamina), you can face more than one AI controlled opponents, etc. By the time a smash player decides to enter the competitive scene, he/she will already have many hours of gameplay and will have a good notion on how to play this game and this will help. Of course, there's still a lot to learn in order to have a chance on the competitive side of the game, but this person already love it, so, this won't be a problem.

    As much as I hate Mortal Kombat, I must admit that MKX does it right. The game have a good amount of single player content and this helps to bring people into the FGC. The amount of players that keep playing the game competitively is much smaller than the people that buy it just for the casual fun. But that's a reality that we have to face. Very few individuals are willing to put time and effort into video games and no amount of accessible fighting games will change this.

    What I want to say on this long ass post is that games like this one will likely to fail like Rising Thunder. Casual players will get bored of getting stomped and will not bother to learn tatics like tick throws and frame traps and veteran players will just skip it because is too simple for them. For me, the ideal fighting game is the one that have both single player content to casuals enjoy and learn while playing and deep gameplay that will keep veterans interested on it. I really hope I'm wrong and this game succeeds, bringing a lot of new players to the FGC, because I love fighting games and I really want them to grow. But I'm not having much faith on this.

    Some real talk there. This is not a game that is trying to do some new or unique it is just taking the standard type of fighters and as I said before removing large elements from the game essentially making it less and less of a fighter altogether if they continue this route can we even call it a fighter. A I said there is a big difference between changing the control scheme using reductionist levels and simply just removing big elements of a genre you are doing absolutely nothing new in the latter being bad.

    I will say it may be a bit cold to say rising thunder failed due to how it was being made simply because its production stopped for other reasons not due to something like decreasing popularity but this type of game will definitely attract a new strand of gamers rather then your FG players and crowd this I had said as well. You are definitely spot on tho zoroark otherwise except hating on MK u a silly 4 dat bun u fam UMK3 4 LYFE and MK universe 4 LYFE MY G MY DON SAFE!!!!!

    Rising Thunder didn't fail. It's developer was brought out by Riot Games and they had them shut down the game to work on another project.
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  • keo-baskeo-bas Joined: Posts: 1,953
    BossBrown wrote: »
    keo-bas wrote: »
    BossBrown wrote: »

    Like I said there are some titles that have done the button reductionist method well with some real good ideas but none have gotten the game 100% right including PB I think Trajais will be the first to get everything right.

    Can I ask that you explained PB desighn flaws? I can only think of them in regards to PB Vanilla and Another codes. Hence why I said PB extra because that game polished its issue.

    being brutually honest Extra I did not play much but I remember the use of stances not being as greatly adapted to a wide range of use over the characters and the meter having 2 much on it from the cancels to ex to overdrive to super(which this game kind of made it work but generally ramming so much onto meter limits options and there was alot on here) leading to things such as supers literally just being a punish (but at least they have a bit of reason to show). Those are the thing I would pick out which the main problem with it all limited the unique things about this game shining which is why I think it got alot less attention then it deserved, great game and as far as it is concerned as a 2D fighter solid. Where Trajais is concerned there is alot of fine coming going on in every aspect of the game not just its gameplay but the whole shabang which is why I am so certain about it and they really have taken the right philosphies of game design to push it right and I see it in what they have shown so far.

    Admittedly my knowledge on the first game is limited due to me having it on hack system and was never able to get updater patch. As for style they don't change how your character works fundamentally but your mechanics (reflection, Counter burst, Nullify attack, Gaurd cancel,overdrive). Their further distinguishes but style primary modify mechanics.

    All option had their purpose and none overshadow over another. EX specials function as ubniversal AUB( universal alpha counter in extra). Emergency Mode as momentum shifter, Phantom breaker (supers) were your unburstable damage (except when opponent had 200%), and overdrive as Psuedo roman cancel that health regenerates with other ultility.
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  • CronopioCronopio ST Joined: Posts: 1,990
    Hopefully you get interested in moving to other fighting games afterwards because execution is one of the biggest aspects that make the genre work. Fighters are about strategy and execution (footsies are also heavily execution based too so you won't be able to avoid it entirely), for pure strategy there are better options than fighting games.
  • Raging_ZoroarkRaging_Zoroark Disgraceful! Joined: Posts: 1,348
    edited November 2016
    Rising Thunder didn't fail. It's developer was brought out by Riot Games and they had them shut down the game to work on another project.

    Yeah, I exaggerated a bit. When I said "fail" I was thinking on how the game didn't bring a lot of people to the genre, since the matchmaking was becoming more and more empty. I tried to bring new people to the game without success and I saw a lot of veterans of the genre bashing the game. For a game with simplified inputs that's also free to play I expecteda lot more people playing it.

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  • BossBrownBossBrown Joined: Posts: 78
    My enjoyment of rising thunder to be brutally honest was more to do with the fact they were robots lol.

    As for PB use of each option was overshadowed by character rather then the elements itself even there is a little of that still. It would be too harsh to say it made the system linear but there were definitely set things to do with each character rather then the intended purpose that being a constant switch up between the abilities it was all a bit bloated I wonder if a better idea would of been to seperate the characters be fighting style as a class rather then whole switch around then again it would just be the same really just without something seeming wasteful plus of course I am sure there was an odd character that used it all so no idea what you would have to do there
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 35,598 mod
    Rising Thunder didn't fail. It's developer was brought out by Riot Games and they had them shut down the game to work on another project.

    Yeah, I exaggerated a bit. When I said "fail" I was thinking on how the matchmaking was becoming more and more empty. I tried to bring new people to the game without success and I saw a lot of veterans of the genre bashing the game. For a game with simplified inputs that's also free to play I expected more people playing it.
    I don't think quality had anything to do with the game dropping off. It's just the usual thing where something that isn't a big name doesn't get as big a following. The lack of offline certainly didn't help.

    Als for every "veteran" bashing the game, it seemed to be that there was also another who actually enjoyed it. There definitely was a subset of players who did enjoy the game. That said, I think there's something to be said about the players who did appreciate the game, and those who didn't. It seemed to me at least that people of similar age and/or background as Seth did enjoy the game. And most of the criticism about the game seemed less about the one button inputs, but of things like the hidden cooldowns, etc.

    Me I loved the game. Chell was my favorite new fighting game character of 2015. Made me remember Old Sagat.
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  • KeckaKecka Psycho Crushing that booty Joined: Posts: 1,556
    Cottoneyes wrote: »
    I'm not going to bash this game too much and I do like the character designs of Yomi, but it's something about outdoing other people with simplicity that bothers me.

    While I understand that fighting games are niche and somewhat hard to get into without dedicated practice I just feel that lowering the bar isolates vets of the genre and often times just makes games more dull. I always just thought that making controls simple to flock in newer casual players was somewhat unproductive. If someone is willing to learn any game they'll have to put time into it and if it's a casual player they generally aren't going to go into any of these training modes, tutorials, or whatever video showcases that's provided for very long and then the game starts to lose it's spark for them. After that they just jump into whatever "quick play" game they have and won't give it much time later.

    Now for people who like putting more work into their fighting games won't even have too much to work and it'll get stale really quickly. I'm not asking for some late 90's fighting game with giant movelists for every character but I do like to have enough wiggle room to do enough that won't boil down to a boring neutral game with like 4 BnB combos for each character.

    I'll still be willing to try it, but I don't see myself being too into it even with "Deceptively simple" gameplay.

    Ideally, the idea is to make controls themselves simple enough that you don't need to sit and practice inputs before you can even begin to learn the fundamentals, while still keeping the tactics like frame-traps, footsies, oki and mix-ups intact. Which I think is a solid idea. One frame links and difficult inputs aren't what separates a pro from a scrub. It's the understanding of how to play the game itself. I'm pretty sure 99.99% of the people who post on SRK can do fireball/DP/super motions reliably at will, and yet some of us are way better than others, so obviously execution isn't the main difference between a good player and a bad one (even if Guile loops and similar monster combos prove that execution definitely is a factor). From that standpoint, it makes sense that there's no real point in having to do a motion for a fireball rather than just press a button.

    The issue with this is that you still have to make the core game deep enough that people will be interested in discovering new tech. If we just look at a DP input in and of itself, it seems pointless compared to do the f, d, df motion when you could just press a button. But even ignoring the obvious issue that even if the motion is easy for a semi-competent player, it still takes slightly longer than just pressing a button, there's also the issue of the motion allowing other tech to be discovered. Auto-correcting DPs and DP option selects are only possible because the motion is there. A lot of fighting game tech is a consequence of holes in systems existing, and are generally unintended by the developers (in the sense of them not knowing about it, at the very least). Even if you include complicated cancel mechanics and sub-systems, half the fun is people discovering weird shit to "break" the system, and your game kind of has to accommodate that. Hell, I'm fairly sure half the popularity of Marvel is because you can bust those games right the fuck up.

    So while execution isn't necessarily mandatory for a good, deep fighting game, I think there has to be some compensation for the fact that you're losing out on the tech that comes as a consequence of having motion inputs. Also, I think the somewhat lukewarm reception for Rising Thunder might've been the all robot cast. The gameplay itself was solid, even if it felt like the mechanics needed a lot more tweaking. But while I like robots, some variety would've been nice.
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  • keo-baskeo-bas Joined: Posts: 1,953
    BossBrown wrote: »
    My enjoyment of rising thunder to be brutally honest was more to do with the fact they were robots lol.

    As for PB use of each option was overshadowed by character rather then the elements itself even there is a little of that still. It would be too harsh to say it made the system linear but there were definitely set things to do with each character rather then the intended purpose that being a constant switch up between the abilities it was all a bit bloated I wonder if a better idea would of been to seperate the characters be fighting style as a class rather then whole switch around then again it would just be the same really just without something seeming wasteful plus of course I am sure there was an odd character that used it all so no idea what you would have to do there
    Now I know I have no idea what your talking about. But I'll leave this discussion to PB thread or pm.

    As for fantasy strike, going to just play the waiting game and see how it unfolds.
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  • SaitsuSaitsu Tranquilo...ASSENAYO! Joined: Posts: 33,572
    It's easy to just look at this game on a superficial level and say what kind of "good" it's doing for casuals who want to get into FGs by simplifying the controls making it much easier to get into the game on a deeper level and thus wanting to get into fighters more.

    The issue is that you completely ignore what even simple execution requirements do for Fighting Games. Bringing up the SRK Motion debate again, let's not even talk about the Option Selects or the Auto-Corrects. Let's just talk reaction time. In a game like Fantasy Strike where you only need one button for a special it'd be absurdly easy to react to a jump, press a button and swat it out of the air. But in a normal FG, you need the DP motion. That travel time to do the motion also shortens the amount of time you have to react. Not only do you need a small bit of execution, which most anyone can learn with just slight practice, but you need the increased reaction time to reliably get the motion out fast enough to make the AA.

    Timing is the biggest thing you remove by oversimplifying controls. Looking for the split second to get in around a zoning characters moves, knowing that little window you have to reliably go in on a charge character, being able to predict an opponent's thought process by the way they're moving, being able to fake out an opponent by the way you move. Those are nuances you lose. Nuances you learn inherently, without anyone actually teaching you the game.

    Honestly, real talk, Yomi probably will end up teaching casual players how to play FGs better than Fantasy Strike itself will.
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  • KeckaKecka Psycho Crushing that booty Joined: Posts: 1,556
    Saitsu wrote: »
    It's easy to just look at this game on a superficial level and say what kind of "good" it's doing for casuals who want to get into FGs by simplifying the controls making it much easier to get into the game on a deeper level and thus wanting to get into fighters more.

    The issue is that you completely ignore what even simple execution requirements do for Fighting Games. Bringing up the SRK Motion debate again, let's not even talk about the Option Selects or the Auto-Corrects. Let's just talk reaction time. In a game like Fantasy Strike where you only need one button for a special it'd be absurdly easy to react to a jump, press a button and swat it out of the air. But in a normal FG, you need the DP motion. That travel time to do the motion also shortens the amount of time you have to react. Not only do you need a small bit of execution, which most anyone can learn with just slight practice, but you need the increased reaction time to reliably get the motion out fast enough to make the AA.

    Timing is the biggest thing you remove by oversimplifying controls. Looking for the split second to get in around a zoning characters moves, knowing that little window you have to reliably go in on a charge character, being able to predict an opponent's thought process by the way they're moving, being able to fake out an opponent by the way you move. Those are nuances you lose. Nuances you learn inherently, without anyone actually teaching you the game.

    Honestly, real talk, Yomi probably will end up teaching casual players how to play FGs better than Fantasy Strike itself will.

    Thing is, you can always compensate for that in various ways, whether it's a Rising Thunder-style cooldown, artificially adding start-up or input delay roughly corresponding to the DP input, or simply by making DPs more like AA command normals. With the tech, it's harder to compensate. If you don't have a DP motion, you can't really option select with a reverse DP or make it auto-correct, since the move will either do it on its own when you press the button or not regardless of what you do. I think the most important thing for any fighting game at a high level is to have a system that gives players enough freedom to do stuff the developers didn't think of, because if everything's discovered before it's even released, the game is already "solved" and it's just a matter of memorizing everything.
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  • BossBrownBossBrown Joined: Posts: 78
    keo-bas wrote: »
    BossBrown wrote: »
    My enjoyment of rising thunder to be brutally honest was more to do with the fact they were robots lol.

    As for PB use of each option was overshadowed by character rather then the elements itself even there is a little of that still. It would be too harsh to say it made the system linear but there were definitely set things to do with each character rather then the intended purpose that being a constant switch up between the abilities it was all a bit bloated I wonder if a better idea would of been to seperate the characters be fighting style as a class rather then whole switch around then again it would just be the same really just without something seeming wasteful plus of course I am sure there was an odd character that used it all so no idea what you would have to do there
    Now I know I have no idea what your talking about. But I'll leave this discussion to PB thread or pm.

    As for fantasy strike, going to just play the waiting game and see how it unfolds.

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  • CronopioCronopio ST Joined: Posts: 1,990
    edited November 2016
    Saitsu wrote: »
    It's easy to just look at this game on a superficial level and say what kind of "good" it's doing for casuals who want to get into FGs by simplifying the controls making it much easier to get into the game on a deeper level and thus wanting to get into fighters more.

    The issue is that you completely ignore what even simple execution requirements do for Fighting Games. Bringing up the SRK Motion debate again, let's not even talk about the Option Selects or the Auto-Corrects. Let's just talk reaction time. In a game like Fantasy Strike where you only need one button for a special it'd be absurdly easy to react to a jump, press a button and swat it out of the air. But in a normal FG, you need the DP motion. That travel time to do the motion also shortens the amount of time you have to react. Not only do you need a small bit of execution, which most anyone can learn with just slight practice, but you need the increased reaction time to reliably get the motion out fast enough to make the AA.

    Timing is the biggest thing you remove by oversimplifying controls. Looking for the split second to get in around a zoning characters moves, knowing that little window you have to reliably go in on a charge character, being able to predict an opponent's thought process by the way they're moving, being able to fake out an opponent by the way you move. Those are nuances you lose. Nuances you learn inherently, without anyone actually teaching you the game.

    Honestly, real talk, Yomi probably will end up teaching casual players how to play FGs better than Fantasy Strike itself will.

    Yeah, changes to execution don't happen in a vacuum and they affect how the game plays. Even adapting the moves to have more startup or adding cooldown won't fix the fact that you can react much better with single button presses than with a more complex motion, that also limits when you can have the motion ready.

    Here you will be able to DP from walking backwards and having a block ready, for example. Big change from having to let back inputs go with a traditional DP motion. Sonic Booms have fast recovery because you have to charge it, and you can't also have a Flashkick ready with it on screen or walking forward. This variety in controls is lost with this setup. Option selects will be much easier with single button presses too.

    The simplification doesn't end with inputs though, you have only one normal button and only two specials, which extremely limits your options.

    Unless there's a solution to these consequences of simplified inputs (and lack of crouch) I expect the game to turn out extremely defensive.
  • MuttonmanMuttonman Joined: Posts: 2,767
    Cronopio wrote: »
    Saitsu wrote: »
    It's easy to just look at this game on a superficial level and say what kind of "good" it's doing for casuals who want to get into FGs by simplifying the controls making it much easier to get into the game on a deeper level and thus wanting to get into fighters more.

    The issue is that you completely ignore what even simple execution requirements do for Fighting Games. Bringing up the SRK Motion debate again, let's not even talk about the Option Selects or the Auto-Corrects. Let's just talk reaction time. In a game like Fantasy Strike where you only need one button for a special it'd be absurdly easy to react to a jump, press a button and swat it out of the air. But in a normal FG, you need the DP motion. That travel time to do the motion also shortens the amount of time you have to react. Not only do you need a small bit of execution, which most anyone can learn with just slight practice, but you need the increased reaction time to reliably get the motion out fast enough to make the AA.

    Timing is the biggest thing you remove by oversimplifying controls. Looking for the split second to get in around a zoning characters moves, knowing that little window you have to reliably go in on a charge character, being able to predict an opponent's thought process by the way they're moving, being able to fake out an opponent by the way you move. Those are nuances you lose. Nuances you learn inherently, without anyone actually teaching you the game.

    Honestly, real talk, Yomi probably will end up teaching casual players how to play FGs better than Fantasy Strike itself will.

    Yeah, changes to execution don't happen in a vacuum and they affect how the game plays. Even adapting the moves to have more startup or adding cooldown won't fix the fact that you can react much better with single button presses than with a more complex motion, that also limits when you can have the motion ready.

    Here you will be able to DP from walking backwards and having a block ready, for example. Big change from having to let back inputs go with a traditional DP motion. Sonic Booms have fast recovery because you have to charge it, and you can't also have a Flashkick ready with it on screen or walking forward. This variety in controls is lost with this setup. Option selects will be much easier with single button presses too.

    The simplification doesn't end with inputs though, you have only one normal button and only two specials, which extremely limits your options.

    Unless there's a solution to these consequences of simplified inputs (and lack of crouch) I expect the game to turn out extremely defensive.

    From what I can tell he's basically mimicked charge motions pretty well; the character has a meter that charges when holding either back or neutral. You can only use your specials when it is full and it uses the whole meter.

    That said, I think Sirlin misses the fundamental aspect that makes fighting games hard to get into. It's not so much the controls as it is the movement. Moving around in fighting games is weird as hell compared to anything else. Compare it to platformers, which Smash takes after. That's a genre people have been playing for decades, and thus the controls move over. You hold down a direction and you start running, you can adjust your arc mid jump, there's momentum, so on and so forth. Even in platformers you generally don't get double tap to dash, you have either hold or a button press.

    That's a hard chasm to cross, because fighting game movement is integral to the genre.
  • keo-baskeo-bas Joined: Posts: 1,953
    Saitsu wrote: »

    The issue is that you completely ignore what even simple execution requirements do for Fighting Games. Bringing up the SRK Motion debate again, let's not even talk about the Option Selects or the Auto-Corrects. Let's just talk reaction time. In a game like Fantasy Strike where you only need one button for a special it'd be absurdly easy to react to a jump, press a button and swat it out of the air. But in a normal FG, you need the DP motion. That travel time to do the motion also shortens the amount of time you have to react. Not only do you need a small bit of execution, which most anyone can learn with just slight practice, but you need the increased reaction time to reliably get the motion out fast enough to make the AA.

    Timing is the biggest thing you remove by oversimplifying controls. Looking for the split second to get in around a zoning characters moves, knowing that little window you have to reliably go in on a charge character, being able to predict an opponent's thought process by the way they're moving, being able to fake out an opponent by the way you move. Those are nuances you lose. Nuances you learn inherently, without anyone actually teaching you the game.
    As Kecka said, developers learn to compensate for changes like this. Some game don't even make timing into factor but decision making. Sure you opponent can react to you jumping but what if that game has options to compensate by allowing additional movement like double jump, Air dash, or dodge to make the DP/AA whiff, or additional defensive technique to counter them like Reinforce guarding( Faultless guard/Shielding) that uses resource or time sensitive input mechanics like Just defend or parry.

    Other games sometimes make your option be unconventional ones (which yomi is doing) like using your normal, for example in PB your universal AA where crouching normals, Ex and super moves that are AUB, outside of the character designated AUB special. Jpwever instead of AA player could also lock down the opponent in air block string which drastically lower the guard gauge, use an untechable air throw. In personal 4 arena players could opt to use their C+D special which beat grabs attempts instead of grab teching into neutral.
    We shouldn't limit fighter by the practice of "traditional fighter" because we wouldn't have Fighters like MK, KI, Smash, Virtua fighter. Bloody roar, Powerstone, Pokken,ect.
    Seikuken Disciple
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  • SaitsuSaitsu Tranquilo...ASSENAYO! Joined: Posts: 33,572
    keo-bas wrote: »
    Saitsu wrote: »

    The issue is that you completely ignore what even simple execution requirements do for Fighting Games. Bringing up the SRK Motion debate again, let's not even talk about the Option Selects or the Auto-Corrects. Let's just talk reaction time. In a game like Fantasy Strike where you only need one button for a special it'd be absurdly easy to react to a jump, press a button and swat it out of the air. But in a normal FG, you need the DP motion. That travel time to do the motion also shortens the amount of time you have to react. Not only do you need a small bit of execution, which most anyone can learn with just slight practice, but you need the increased reaction time to reliably get the motion out fast enough to make the AA.

    Timing is the biggest thing you remove by oversimplifying controls. Looking for the split second to get in around a zoning characters moves, knowing that little window you have to reliably go in on a charge character, being able to predict an opponent's thought process by the way they're moving, being able to fake out an opponent by the way you move. Those are nuances you lose. Nuances you learn inherently, without anyone actually teaching you the game.
    As Kecka said, developers learn to compensate for changes like this. Some game don't even make timing into factor but decision making. Sure you opponent can react to you jumping but what if that game has options to compensate by allowing additional movement like double jump, Air dash, or dodge to make the DP/AA whiff, or additional defensive technique to counter them like Reinforce guarding( Faultless guard/Shielding) that uses resource or time sensitive input mechanics like Just defend or parry.

    Other games sometimes make your option be unconventional ones (which yomi is doing) like using your normal, for example in PB your universal AA where crouching normals, Ex and super moves that are AUB, outside of the character designated AUB special. Jpwever instead of AA player could also lock down the opponent in air block string which drastically lower the guard gauge, use an untechable air throw. In personal 4 arena players could opt to use their C+D special which beat grabs attempts instead of grab teching into neutral.
    We shouldn't limit fighter by the practice of "traditional fighter" because we wouldn't have Fighters like MK, KI, Smash, Virtua fighter. Bloody roar, Powerstone, Pokken,ect.

    ALL Fighters, even non-Traditional ones, all require timing and execution based on timing. Games like Smash and KI are some of the most timing based games out there.

    On top of that, this game doesn't add mechanics to compensate for the easier AAs or anything, it just strips mechanics away. It can't even add mechanics if it wanted to BECAUSE of its commitment to being the "Simplest FG in history". If you can't trust players to understand the concept of high/low blocking then how are you going to get them to understand concepts like movement in order to avoid punishment, or things like Just Defend?

    That's the issue, and ironically you help add to my point. You're right in the sense that when you make big sweeping changes to avoid being beholden to "Traditional FGs" you have to compensate for it somewhere to make it work. The problem is, due to this game's design philosophy they can't actually add much of anything for compensation without betraying the very concept they strive to be. This is why I say Yomi will teach casuals how to play FGs better than Fantasy Strike will. Because at least that game is allowed to compensate.

    In Yomi, let's look at Grave aka Ryu Clone. He has an absurd DP. 0 frames which means it can't be beat by anything in the entire game short of a Gold Burst. If it's blocked you get some chip and the opponent gets a card but you aren't hard punished like you would be in a normal fighter. So what's the compensation? You only get 4 DPs in an entire game so you MUST use them wisely. The second Grave is without the threat of DP it's open season as his normals and moves aren't particularly fast otherwise unless he wants to go for the hail mary raw True Power of Storms. In a way, this teaches you somewhat about the proper timing of using a DP. Use it when you really need to get out of a situation but don't abuse it.

    Yomi actually does teach players also about the importance of pokes, using throws to break open a guard, how to best make use of health, crossups, 2 in 1s, making and spending bar, combo trees, hell even how to use a Burst and Bursts are actually somewhat rare in FGs. If someone is having problems grasping FG concepts and they're afraid of execution I'm much more likely to send them to playing Yomi than have them play Fantasy Strike because Yomi is much more likely to teach people concepts that they can use in multiple FGs whether traditional or not.
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  • NeoBloodNeoBlood kara bank account Joined: Posts: 2,757 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    pass
  • CronopioCronopio ST Joined: Posts: 1,990
    edited November 2016
    keo-bas wrote: »
    As Kecka said, developers learn to compensate for changes like this. Some game don't even make timing into factor but decision making.

    When you take execution away completely and leave only decision making you end up with a turn based strategy game. No fighting game can exist without timing; even something as simple as punishing a whiff, AAing or staying out of sweep range demands timing and execution.
  • StoneDrumStoneDrum Joined: Posts: 1,096
    edited November 2016
    input execution can be replaced by adding startup frames roughly equal to the execution time... theres absolutely zero reason why we need the complex inputs we have, but we have them because 1.) it is the traditional approach and it works, and is fun/adds charm etc. and 2.) it adds longevity by way of needing to train and what not.

    MKX has supers with L+R and specials with down forward punch etc. (insert childish whining of how mkx sucks here because reasons)

    there are no rules to game design... there are tested and tried and true ways, but there is no right or wrong way. there are only good and bad games. it is nothing but foolish to dismiss this as a bad game in its current state
  • SaitsuSaitsu Tranquilo...ASSENAYO! Joined: Posts: 33,572
    StoneDrum wrote: »
    input execution can be replaced by adding startup frames roughly equal to the execution time... theres absolutely zero reason why we need the complex inputs we have, but we have them because 1.) it is the traditional approach and it works, and is fun/adds charm etc. and 2.) it adds longevity by way of needing to train and what not.

    MKX has supers with L+R and specials with down forward punch etc. (insert childish whining of how mkx sucks here because reasons)

    there are no rules to game design... there are tested and tried and true ways, but there is no right or wrong way. there are only good and bad games. it is nothing but foolish to dismiss this as a bad game in its current state

    Did I say it was a bad game? It can very well be a good game on its own merits.

    But adding startup time does NOT replace input execution and it's completely asinine to suggest. In theory it does "Oh, well if you can respond to a jump quicker, then make the move take longer to come out, it all balances out". But you're still taking away the minigame of being in the right position to execute quicker, or needing to move correctly to make a AA auto correct if necessary. Even if you can do 100 times out of 100 you're taking away the fun of everything surrounding it.

    Fantasy Strike can potentially be a fun game in its own rights, and it has every right to prove itself on that front. But it's entire intention is to serve as a gateway into other FGs, which it will not do well in. What the game SHOULD focus on is being nothing more than itself and focusing on how the game mechanics revolve around its own world and focus on being the best game it can be ignoring how other games do things. But that's kind of hard to do when so many of its characters are throwbacks or homages to notable and infamous FG characters.
    PSN: Saitsuofleaves SF5 Tag: Saitsu  Baby Steps to Giant Strides
    FC: 0490-4604-8179 
    Street Fighter 5: Vega
  • CronopioCronopio ST Joined: Posts: 1,990
    edited November 2016
    Increasing startup is a pretty terrible solution for various reasons. For example with a DP motion I can buffer the directionals and delay the button press to be able to respond quicker if I want to. With delayed startup I will have a slower attack no matter what. Of course this alters its usefulness as a reversal since longer startup makes it easier to safejump, make it harder to combo from normals and overall affect how good it is for zoning. You will have to reduce projectile recovery to allow classic shoto zoning, but of course that also carries its own set of consequences.

    Again, changes like these have chain reactions that affect multiple aspects of the game. Changing how inputs work doesn't just affect inputs.

    The reason why developers have stuck with Street Fighter II input system for so long is not out of tradition, it's because it was genius. It puts limitations to moves without sacrificing responsiveness, it's loose enough to allow flexibility but not so much as to make reactions braindead. It also lets you have many special attacks whereas with single button presses you are much more limited. And it adds an incredible amount of depth and variety to characters that is lost in a game with single presses for everything.

    Now, maybe if the input simplicity was there because it had a novel system designed around it and gave you extra tools to make it up for it, it could work. But as this seems to be Street Fighter Redux, I don't see how it can compensate.
  • PSYCH0J0SHPSYCH0J0SH Joined: Posts: 5,291
    StoneDrum wrote: »
    there are only good and bad games. it is nothing but foolish to dismiss this as a bad game in its current state

    No it's not. The mechanics are not going to drastically change between now and release. This is the summarized version of the final game. The problems with the game are already quite apparent and they go beyond being simply "bugs" or "oversights", it has more to do with the flawed design of the game itself.
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  • Jion_WansuJion_Wansu Joined: Posts: 5,569
    I understand how important is to bring new players into the FGC, but I don't think that making games like this will really help. Contrary to the common belief, motions and combos are the easy part of the fighting games. Spacing, AA'ing, blocking and reacting to things is much, MUCH harder than throwing fireballs or performing a ground strings. This game goes further by removing the high/low mixup, but I feel that this will make more harm than good for two reasons. First, attack/throw is already a difficult mixup for someone who's not used to FGs. Two, newbs don't have the patience to just block and play a reaction based game. They want to press buttons and will lose to zoning/super armor anyway.

    The reason why Smash Brothers is so popular among children have little to do with simplified motions. Of course, this helps a lot, but what really make people to play this game more than once is that there are many things to do in the game. You can play alone vs the machine, you can call up to 7 friends to play simutaneously, you can play the game's story/arcade mode, you can play with the alternate game modes (coin/stamina), you can face more than one AI controlled opponents, etc. By the time a smash player decides to enter the competitive scene, he/she will already have many hours of gameplay and will have a good notion on how to play this game and this will help. Of course, there's still a lot to learn in order to have a chance on the competitive side of the game, but this person already love it, so, this won't be a problem.

    As much as I hate Mortal Kombat, I must admit that MKX does it right. The game have a good amount of single player content and this helps to bring people into the FGC. The amount of players that keep playing the game competitively is much smaller than the people that buy it just for the casual fun. But that's a reality that we have to face. Very few individuals are willing to put time and effort into video games and no amount of accessible fighting games will change this.

    What I want to say on this long ass post is that games like this one will likely to fail like Rising Thunder. Casual players will get bored of getting stomped and will not bother to learn tatics like tick throws and frame traps and veteran players will just skip it because is too simple for them. For me, the ideal fighting game is the one that have both single player content to casuals enjoy and learn while playing and deep gameplay that will keep veterans interested on it. I really hope I'm wrong and this game succeeds, bringing a lot of new players to the FGC, because I love fighting games and I really want them to grow. But I'm not having much faith on this.

    Piggybacking off of you MK comment...


    MK1 pretty much took me away from SF back in 1992. I thought that Capcom was shit when they tried to get back the old SF players that went to MK by releasing Super and Super Turbo. The game that got me back into SF was CVS2. The game that got me away from the MK franchise was MK4 and the lack of MK competition when MK4 came out. MK5, MK6, and MK7 kinda got me back into MK, but that was short lived because there were no serious tournaments or competition for those games.

    Fast forward to now. I haven't played MKX or SF5 yet, but I have played MK9 and SF4 once each. I didn't like it SF4 or MK9. Although, SF5 kinda reminds me of that old school SF2 feel while MKX kinda reminds me of that oldschool MK2/UMK3 feel based on the streams I've seen. I'll have to play MKX and SF5 one of these days.
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 35,598 mod
    The thing is, if you read the writings of both Seth and Sirlin (especially Sirlin), you can kinda tell that they do value decision making and making the right reads/decisions over the mechanical execution behind it. I'd say that to them, that aspect of fighting games is more interesting and engaging over reaction, mechanical execution, etc. This is something that shows in both the games they enjoy, as well as those that they design. In other words, they're simply making games that emphasize that part of fighting games that they enjoy the most. It's less about "I'm going to do so and so really fast, and see if you can react to that" and more "here's what I'm going to do, what's your answer to it".
    You can't ask for well-thought-out changes off day 1, week 1, or mostly even month 1 play...and that's when the game is out and everyone's in the lab.
    -Mike_Z

    If there's anything we do best, it's breaking games and then making everyone suffer with all the cheapness.
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  • Evolution169Evolution169 Wake up DP is unbeatable Joined: Posts: 1,025
    Can't wait to see this abomination at EVO.
  • UlrikUlrik Joined: Posts: 4
    Saitsu wrote: »
    Fantasy Strike can potentially be a fun game in its own rights, and it has every right to prove itself on that front. But it's entire intention is to serve as a gateway into other FGs, which it will not do well in. What the game SHOULD focus on is being nothing more than itself and focusing on how the game mechanics revolve around its own world and focus on being the best game it can be ignoring how other games do things. But that's kind of hard to do when so many of its characters are throwbacks or homages to notable and infamous FG characters.

    I think that Fantasy Strike is focusing on being it's own thing for the right crowd more than being a "gateway game" - some of us might "graduate" to other fighting games, but certainly not all. It attempts to highlight and show off a part of fighting games that's usually beyond a lot of gamers (for various reasons). This is useful for introducing more people, but will also stand perfectly fine on its own.

    As for how these characters come close to being a "rip-off" of Street Fighter, that's more down to Sirlin Games' history than this specific game - Yomi (the card game) was designed to be an SF2 card game (there are rumours that they tried for the license, but I got no clue if those are true). So the Yomi "setting" is based on SF2 to various degrees, but Sirlin has continued to use it for all his games and has built on it. So when he does make a fighting game, using the Yomi characters is the obvious choice.
    d3v wrote: »
    The thing is, if you read the writings of both Seth and Sirlin (especially Sirlin), you can kinda tell that they do value decision making and making the right reads/decisions over the mechanical execution behind it. I'd say that to them, that aspect of fighting games is more interesting and engaging over reaction, mechanical execution, etc. This is something that shows in both the games they enjoy, as well as those that they design. In other words, they're simply making games that emphasize that part of fighting games that they enjoy the most. It's less about "I'm going to do so and so really fast, and see if you can react to that" and more "here's what I'm going to do, what's your answer to it".

    Exactly this. Fantasy Strike is an attempt to boil a fighting game down to what Sirlin thinks is the essence, or more correctly, to what he thinks are the best parts of fighting games. Everybody has the right to their own opinion on what makes a game great, and this is his.
    Cronopio wrote: »
    Hopefully you get interested in moving to other fighting games afterwards because execution is one of the biggest aspects that make the genre work. Fighters are about strategy and execution (footsies are also heavily execution based too so you won't be able to avoid it entirely), for pure strategy there are better options than fighting games.

    The timing aspect is still present, and important (otherwise I'd just play Yomi!). But flipping a card after getting to think about the right play isn't the same as frantically pushing the right button at the right time. Thinking fast is different from thinking deeply, but it's still a mental task.
  • BossBrownBossBrown Joined: Posts: 78

    Ulrik wrote: »
    Saitsu wrote: »
    Fantasy Strike can potentially be a fun game in its own rights, and it has every right to prove itself on that front. But it's entire intention is to serve as a gateway into other FGs, which it will not do well in. What the game SHOULD focus on is being nothing more than itself and focusing on how the game mechanics revolve around its own world and focus on being the best game it can be ignoring how other games do things. But that's kind of hard to do when so many of its characters are throwbacks or homages to notable and infamous FG characters.

    I think that Fantasy Strike is focusing on being it's own thing for the right crowd more than being a "gateway game" - some of us might "graduate" to other fighting games, but certainly not all. It attempts to highlight and show off a part of fighting games that's usually beyond a lot of gamers (for various reasons). This is useful for introducing more people, but will also stand perfectly fine on its own.

    As for how these characters come close to being a "rip-off" of Street Fighter, that's more down to Sirlin Games' history than this specific game - Yomi (the card game) was designed to be an SF2 card game (there are rumours that they tried for the license, but I got no clue if those are true). So the Yomi "setting" is based on SF2 to various degrees, but Sirlin has continued to use it for all his games and has built on it. So when he does make a fighting game, using the Yomi characters is the obvious choice.
    d3v wrote: »
    The thing is, if you read the writings of both Seth and Sirlin (especially Sirlin), you can kinda tell that they do value decision making and making the right reads/decisions over the mechanical execution behind it. I'd say that to them, that aspect of fighting games is more interesting and engaging over reaction, mechanical execution, etc. This is something that shows in both the games they enjoy, as well as those that they design. In other words, they're simply making games that emphasize that part of fighting games that they enjoy the most. It's less about "I'm going to do so and so really fast, and see if you can react to that" and more "here's what I'm going to do, what's your answer to it".

    Exactly this. Fantasy Strike is an attempt to boil a fighting game down to what Sirlin thinks is the essence, or more correctly, to what he thinks are the best parts of fighting games. Everybody has the right to their own opinion on what makes a game great, and this is his.
    Cronopio wrote: »
    Hopefully you get interested in moving to other fighting games afterwards because execution is one of the biggest aspects that make the genre work. Fighters are about strategy and execution (footsies are also heavily execution based too so you won't be able to avoid it entirely), for pure strategy there are better options than fighting games.

    The timing aspect is still present, and important (otherwise I'd just play Yomi!). But flipping a card after getting to think about the right play isn't the same as frantically pushing the right button at the right time. Thinking fast is different from thinking deeply, but it's still a mental task.

    Having your own opinion on what makes a great game is fine as long as you dont get the hump when others do not agree especially if you are trying to push it as a specific genre and to its main group which despite everyone having varying interests in fighters they can all collectively say no and you are ok with that then all is bless. Like I said bringing in new people or even a different type of game for new people is all bless but there is generally no real appeal in here for fighter players. Thinking deeply can go into almost any game, thinking fast only features in a few genres generally side scrollers, Mobas and fighters. Thinking fast is a part of fighters not just mechanically but in its appeal.
    Basically make the game however you want but I believe it would be a huge mistake to push this game out to the fighting game players and believe they will get favourable acceptence of it how it is right now especially with the almost unaimous feelings about the game from this chat. Most of the people who are on the side of "giving it a chance" are mostly just hopefuls hence you have people saying things as about being wrong to judge the game in its current state.
    The main problem here is not what they are trying to achieve which they have made clear, it is the decision they have made to go about it. People are only being helpful here by saying about the natural flaws that they can see or will occur in the game that have come from the developers collection of choices, it is mostly the fact that they are not doing or trying anything new what so ever they are just removing vast amounts of a pre-existing creation essentially crippling it, whether they choose to take that onboard is entirely upto them. Wish the game all the best anyway when it is about I will give it a go and hey I might even enjoy it but even if I do if it remains similar to as is I know that I will enjoy it for other reasons rather then enjoying it as a fighter.
  • KeckaKecka Psycho Crushing that booty Joined: Posts: 1,556
    StoneDrum wrote: »
    input execution can be replaced by adding startup frames roughly equal to the execution time... theres absolutely zero reason why we need the complex inputs we have, but we have them because 1.) it is the traditional approach and it works, and is fun/adds charm etc. and 2.) it adds longevity by way of needing to train and what not.

    MKX has supers with L+R and specials with down forward punch etc. (insert childish whining of how mkx sucks here because reasons)

    there are no rules to game design... there are tested and tried and true ways, but there is no right or wrong way. there are only good and bad games. it is nothing but foolish to dismiss this as a bad game in its current state

    On the topic of MK, I think that 1) those inputs aren't easier aside from maybe DPs since I find rolling the stick easier than jerking it in directions (and in the MK games where you can just do fireball motions it makes no difference), and 2) in games using traditional SF inputs there's generally a sort of "standardized" motion-to-move protocol that just doesn't exist in MK. For example, if I were to throw a fireball in a Street Fighter game, or KI, or KoF, or whatever, I'd probably try quarter circle forward with a punch button. Likewise, with a DP I'd try DP motions, and a command grab I'd try 360s. I can probably guess like 75% of all moves in any given Street Fighter game after I've figured out whether a character is charge or motions, even the ones like EX, where I don't know more than half the roster. In MK or Injustice, that's not a thing, because everyone just seems to have random motions and buttons for even very similar moves. And I know that's an extremely surface level problem that will disappear within days of picking up the game, but if the idea is to make it easier on new players, breaking conventions for the sake of breaking them adds an artificial learning curve for anyone used to any other 2d fighter.

    Also, like I said, motions do serve purposes outside of their original ones (which was basically either "hidden moves" or cabinets not having enough buttons). Charge characters play very differently because of their need to hold down back and therefore can have moves that would be overpowered for motion characters. This also means that crossing them up can remove part of their arsenal or forcing them to block an overhead or walk forward/backward will fuck with their down charges, meaning that on the offense they either need to jump or charge their specials during normals. A Guile who can walk forward and boom/flash kick is suddenly a ridiculous rushdown character. Stuff like charge partitioning, input buffering, option selects and auto-corrects largely came as a direct consequence of the inputs of various moves. Getting rid of motions isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it's not as easy as "it's artificial difficulty", because it has evolved to the point where it is part of the genre and you kind of need to make a system that still allows that level of advanced gameplay and undiscovered tech.

    Look at Melee. I know, I know, people will probably shit all over me now. But it's the perfect example of a game with simple inputs that still has some extremely high-level (if unintended) techniques. A lot of players prefer that game to Brawl, where Nintendo essentially looked at it and went "well, fuck you for having fun in a way we didn't intend, have random tripping". Sure, it's a bit different since the advanced techniques in Smash only come into play at high levels, whereas motions in Street Fighter are required at the most casual level, but the idea is that if you're going to simplify the control scheme, you need to make sure that the game itself doesn't lose complexity at a high level, or you're just going to end up with a product that isn't as popular once the casuals get tired of it after a few months. You want to make it easier to get to the complex stuff, you don't want to remove the complex stuff altogether. Which is why I liked Rising Thunder, because even though I wasn't the biggest fan of cooldown specials and the aesthetics, that game was basically all footsies.
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  • PerthoPertho The Runed One Joined: Posts: 21,607 mod
    Reasons why this game is better than SF5: the grappler's command grab is actually scary.
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    jimmy1200 wrote: »
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  • itzpookiieitzpookiie Joined: Posts: 3,174
    edited November 2016
    There are a bunch of games being created everyday
    Copy and pasting animations from another game though

    That's just disgusting
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 35,598 mod
    JohnGrimm wrote: »
    d3v wrote: »
    The thing is, if you read the writings of both Seth and Sirlin (especially Sirlin), you can kinda tell that they do value decision making and making the right reads/decisions over the mechanical execution behind it. I'd say that to them, that aspect of fighting games is more interesting and engaging over reaction, mechanical execution, etc. This is something that shows in both the games they enjoy, as well as those that they design. In other words, they're simply making games that emphasize that part of fighting games that they enjoy the most. It's less about "I'm going to do so and so really fast, and see if you can react to that" and more "here's what I'm going to do, what's your answer to it".

    I mean yeah this is their goal, it's just curious that both of them value decision making, but every game they make reduces the number of options drastically making decision making process much easier and in a way less important than what ends up dominating the game which you can bank on being reactions and matchups since less options = less ways to deal with situations = matchups become more rigid and for instance the decision to jump a fireball is less important to your reactions to the fireball to not get punished for jumping too late.

    Basically long story short their design concepts IMO are not conducive to what they consider the best parts of fighting games. I mean, I highly value decision making myself but turning the "rock-paper-scissors" of fighting games into ACTUAL rock-paper-scissors makes me uninterested by a great deal. The complexity is what makes that decision making interesting, that's the real reason why Divekick was a fun party game that didn't have legs and died a week after launch. You can scream from the mountaintops about how easy your game is or how it's about footsies and fundamental play, but fact of the matter is a game needs more than just spacing and RPS to be enjoyable for a long period of time.

    Well it's highly likely that they think otherwise. I mean, just look at the games they enjoy the most - games like ST and Alpha 2. There's a simplicity in those games (remember Sirlin and low strong) and the way they play them that informs their ideas and decisions on making their own games.
    You can't ask for well-thought-out changes off day 1, week 1, or mostly even month 1 play...and that's when the game is out and everyone's in the lab.
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  • Remy77077Remy77077 futility fighting Joined: Posts: 321
    edited November 2016
    Ulrik wrote: »
    I think that Fantasy Strike is focusing on being it's own thing for the right crowd more than being a "gateway game" - some of us might "graduate" to other fighting games, but certainly not all. It attempts to highlight and show off a part of fighting games that's usually beyond a lot of gamers (for various reasons). This is useful for introducing more people, but will also stand perfectly fine on its own.

    Fantastic post. You totally understand this.

    Fantasy Strike will also appeal to SOME existing fighting game players. I'm one of them, and I've introduced it to a bunch more who like it too. Just depends on your tastes really. If you're an MvC player and want mega combo execution etc then yeah, I wouldn't think this would have much appeal to you. Heck, read my OP, I said in that the kinds of players I thought this would most appeal to there as well.

    I hope many of you try it out though one day, as they HAVE come up with answers already to how to do charge moves - on a meter as explained above, and also they are really wary of how good a DP type of move is in this type of game system, and every DP-style move has some vast downsides to them - for a start, most of them are Super moves only, so also on a meter essentially.
    Ulrik wrote: »
    As for how these characters come close to being a "rip-off" of Street Fighter, that's more down to Sirlin Games' history than this specific game - Yomi (the card game) was designed to be an SF2 card game (there are rumours that they tried for the license, but I got no clue if those are true). So the Yomi "setting" is based on SF2 to various degrees, but Sirlin has continued to use it for all his games and has built on it. So when he does make a fighting game, using the Yomi characters is the obvious choice.

    I can confirm it was true. At one point Yomi was close to being an official SF2 card game :)
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  • StoneDrumStoneDrum Joined: Posts: 1,096
    Muttonman wrote: »
    StoneDrum wrote: »
    input execution can be replaced by adding startup frames roughly equal to the execution time... theres absolutely zero reason why we need the complex inputs we have, but we have them because 1.) it is the traditional approach and it works, and is fun/adds charm etc. and 2.) it adds longevity by way of needing to train and what not.

    MKX has supers with L+R and specials with down forward punch etc. (insert childish whining of how mkx sucks here because reasons)

    there are no rules to game design... there are tested and tried and true ways, but there is no right or wrong way. there are only good and bad games. it is nothing but foolish to dismiss this as a bad game in its current state

    No, because if a move that was 3 frames with a harder input is now 6 frames, you can't punish -3 moves with it or frametrap there. You also can't be buffering in case you see something you want to use the move against.

    You can design around having simple moves, as MKX did by making you want to use meter on breakers instead of supers, but if you don't understand why inputs exist you should go back and examine that instead of making idiotic comments.

    the point of my post is there are ways to work around changing inputs by changing the game design as well. My point was there is no need for complex controls. The arguments I'm seeing here raise good insight of why we use the motions we use, but they don't argue well against why a game can't control like fantasy strike does... Whether the developers realize the potential pitfalls, and how they will overcome them through how they design the game is to be determined. But again, there's no reason why they can't do the controls as they are, as long as they can make it work, and it can through mindful game design. Will the meta end up comparable to other fighting games? maybe not. But maybe it will be pleasantly different and fresh by the time it is finished.
  • JohnGrimmJohnGrimm A.K.A. JohnXuandou Joined: Posts: 4,303
    d3v wrote: »
    JohnGrimm wrote: »
    d3v wrote: »
    The thing is, if you read the writings of both Seth and Sirlin (especially Sirlin), you can kinda tell that they do value decision making and making the right reads/decisions over the mechanical execution behind it. I'd say that to them, that aspect of fighting games is more interesting and engaging over reaction, mechanical execution, etc. This is something that shows in both the games they enjoy, as well as those that they design. In other words, they're simply making games that emphasize that part of fighting games that they enjoy the most. It's less about "I'm going to do so and so really fast, and see if you can react to that" and more "here's what I'm going to do, what's your answer to it".

    I mean yeah this is their goal, it's just curious that both of them value decision making, but every game they make reduces the number of options drastically making decision making process much easier and in a way less important than what ends up dominating the game which you can bank on being reactions and matchups since less options = less ways to deal with situations = matchups become more rigid and for instance the decision to jump a fireball is less important to your reactions to the fireball to not get punished for jumping too late.

    Basically long story short their design concepts IMO are not conducive to what they consider the best parts of fighting games. I mean, I highly value decision making myself but turning the "rock-paper-scissors" of fighting games into ACTUAL rock-paper-scissors makes me uninterested by a great deal. The complexity is what makes that decision making interesting, that's the real reason why Divekick was a fun party game that didn't have legs and died a week after launch. You can scream from the mountaintops about how easy your game is or how it's about footsies and fundamental play, but fact of the matter is a game needs more than just spacing and RPS to be enjoyable for a long period of time.

    Well it's highly likely that they think otherwise. I mean, just look at the games they enjoy the most - games like ST and Alpha 2. There's a simplicity in those games (remember Sirlin and low strong) and the way they play them that informs their ideas and decisions on making their own games.

    I wouldn't say those games are all that simple really. Basic strategies can be very effective in them though as long as you are good at understanding the opponent which is definitely Sirlin's style and his absolute obsession with "Yomi". The problem here though is that everyone is being reduced to basic strategies without any layering going on which still to me doesn't seem like the best idea if your favorite thing is the decision making of fighting games. Again, when the options are so limited, figuring out what your opponent wants to do is really easy because in most situations there's only one or two things they even can do to begin with. You're not making reads so much as you are brute forcing the matchup. Seeing early footage of matches in this game already makes it look like it's going to be MOBA levels of counterpicking in a fighting game which sounds super whack to me. There is some compensation by making move properties ridiculous, but we've seen games with ridiculous move properties before like Marvel and that doesn't stop bad matchups from being horrible. I get where you're coming from and Sirlin's ideas make sense on paper, I just don't think they make sense in practice.
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  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 35,598 mod
    JohnGrimm wrote: »
    d3v wrote: »
    JohnGrimm wrote: »
    d3v wrote: »
    The thing is, if you read the writings of both Seth and Sirlin (especially Sirlin), you can kinda tell that they do value decision making and making the right reads/decisions over the mechanical execution behind it. I'd say that to them, that aspect of fighting games is more interesting and engaging over reaction, mechanical execution, etc. This is something that shows in both the games they enjoy, as well as those that they design. In other words, they're simply making games that emphasize that part of fighting games that they enjoy the most. It's less about "I'm going to do so and so really fast, and see if you can react to that" and more "here's what I'm going to do, what's your answer to it".

    I mean yeah this is their goal, it's just curious that both of them value decision making, but every game they make reduces the number of options drastically making decision making process much easier and in a way less important than what ends up dominating the game which you can bank on being reactions and matchups since less options = less ways to deal with situations = matchups become more rigid and for instance the decision to jump a fireball is less important to your reactions to the fireball to not get punished for jumping too late.

    Basically long story short their design concepts IMO are not conducive to what they consider the best parts of fighting games. I mean, I highly value decision making myself but turning the "rock-paper-scissors" of fighting games into ACTUAL rock-paper-scissors makes me uninterested by a great deal. The complexity is what makes that decision making interesting, that's the real reason why Divekick was a fun party game that didn't have legs and died a week after launch. You can scream from the mountaintops about how easy your game is or how it's about footsies and fundamental play, but fact of the matter is a game needs more than just spacing and RPS to be enjoyable for a long period of time.

    Well it's highly likely that they think otherwise. I mean, just look at the games they enjoy the most - games like ST and Alpha 2. There's a simplicity in those games (remember Sirlin and low strong) and the way they play them that informs their ideas and decisions on making their own games.

    I wouldn't say those games are all that simple really. Basic strategies can be very effective in them though as long as you are good at understanding the opponent which is definitely Sirlin's style and his absolute obsession with "Yomi". The problem here though is that everyone is being reduced to basic strategies without any layering going on which still to me doesn't seem like the best idea if your favorite thing is the decision making of fighting games. Again, when the options are so limited, figuring out what your opponent wants to do is really easy because in most situations there's only one or two things they even can do to begin with. You're not making reads so much as you are brute forcing the matchup. Seeing early footage of matches in this game already makes it look like it's going to be MOBA levels of counterpicking in a fighting game which sounds super whack to me. There is some compensation by making move properties ridiculous, but we've seen games with ridiculous move properties before like Marvel and that doesn't stop bad matchups from being horrible. I get where you're coming from and Sirlin's ideas make sense on paper, I just don't think they make sense in practice.

    Well, Sirlin seems to enjoy more the whole decision process of "I did this because you thought I was going to do that, so I did this instead".

    Also, coming from ST and A2, these guys probably do like counter picking (remember, Sirlin ran Ryu, 'Gief and Rose in A2, sometimes bringing all three out in grand finals).
    You can't ask for well-thought-out changes off day 1, week 1, or mostly even month 1 play...and that's when the game is out and everyone's in the lab.
    -Mike_Z

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  • KomatikKomatik Card demon Joined: Posts: 2,660
    d3v wrote: »
    Well, Sirlin seems to enjoy more the whole decision process of "I did this because you thought I was going to do that, so I did this instead".

    Also, coming from ST and A2, these guys probably do like counter picking (remember, Sirlin ran Ryu, 'Gief and Rose in A2, sometimes bringing all three out in grand finals).

    Sirlin's definitely on record as a vocal opponent of character lock.
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  • MuttonmanMuttonman Joined: Posts: 2,767
    Good lord. Despite both being DPs, a Volcanic Viper is not a Shoryuken. You could at least do this much with deGray's Dandy's even if you want to keep the Pilebunker looking the same as the card. Same goes for most other characters; the cards have a single frame on them. Make the animations unique around said frame.
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  • KomatikKomatik Card demon Joined: Posts: 2,660
    edited November 2016
    Post edited by Komatik on
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