Fantasy Strike - easy to execute fighting game

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  • keo-baskeo-bas Joined: Posts: 1,988
    Saitsu wrote: »

    The issue is that you completely ignore what even simple execution requirements do for Fighting Games. Bringing up the SRK Motion debate again, let's not even talk about the Option Selects or the Auto-Corrects. Let's just talk reaction time. In a game like Fantasy Strike where you only need one button for a special it'd be absurdly easy to react to a jump, press a button and swat it out of the air. But in a normal FG, you need the DP motion. That travel time to do the motion also shortens the amount of time you have to react. Not only do you need a small bit of execution, which most anyone can learn with just slight practice, but you need the increased reaction time to reliably get the motion out fast enough to make the AA.

    Timing is the biggest thing you remove by oversimplifying controls. Looking for the split second to get in around a zoning characters moves, knowing that little window you have to reliably go in on a charge character, being able to predict an opponent's thought process by the way they're moving, being able to fake out an opponent by the way you move. Those are nuances you lose. Nuances you learn inherently, without anyone actually teaching you the game.
    As Kecka said, developers learn to compensate for changes like this. Some game don't even make timing into factor but decision making. Sure you opponent can react to you jumping but what if that game has options to compensate by allowing additional movement like double jump, Air dash, or dodge to make the DP/AA whiff, or additional defensive technique to counter them like Reinforce guarding( Faultless guard/Shielding) that uses resource or time sensitive input mechanics like Just defend or parry.

    Other games sometimes make your option be unconventional ones (which yomi is doing) like using your normal, for example in PB your universal AA where crouching normals, Ex and super moves that are AUB, outside of the character designated AUB special. Jpwever instead of AA player could also lock down the opponent in air block string which drastically lower the guard gauge, use an untechable air throw. In personal 4 arena players could opt to use their C+D special which beat grabs attempts instead of grab teching into neutral.
    We shouldn't limit fighter by the practice of "traditional fighter" because we wouldn't have Fighters like MK, KI, Smash, Virtua fighter. Bloody roar, Powerstone, Pokken,ect.
    Seikuken Disciple
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  • SaitsuSaitsu When a Kid, Becomes a Legend Joined: Posts: 35,297
    keo-bas wrote: »
    Saitsu wrote: »

    The issue is that you completely ignore what even simple execution requirements do for Fighting Games. Bringing up the SRK Motion debate again, let's not even talk about the Option Selects or the Auto-Corrects. Let's just talk reaction time. In a game like Fantasy Strike where you only need one button for a special it'd be absurdly easy to react to a jump, press a button and swat it out of the air. But in a normal FG, you need the DP motion. That travel time to do the motion also shortens the amount of time you have to react. Not only do you need a small bit of execution, which most anyone can learn with just slight practice, but you need the increased reaction time to reliably get the motion out fast enough to make the AA.

    Timing is the biggest thing you remove by oversimplifying controls. Looking for the split second to get in around a zoning characters moves, knowing that little window you have to reliably go in on a charge character, being able to predict an opponent's thought process by the way they're moving, being able to fake out an opponent by the way you move. Those are nuances you lose. Nuances you learn inherently, without anyone actually teaching you the game.
    As Kecka said, developers learn to compensate for changes like this. Some game don't even make timing into factor but decision making. Sure you opponent can react to you jumping but what if that game has options to compensate by allowing additional movement like double jump, Air dash, or dodge to make the DP/AA whiff, or additional defensive technique to counter them like Reinforce guarding( Faultless guard/Shielding) that uses resource or time sensitive input mechanics like Just defend or parry.

    Other games sometimes make your option be unconventional ones (which yomi is doing) like using your normal, for example in PB your universal AA where crouching normals, Ex and super moves that are AUB, outside of the character designated AUB special. Jpwever instead of AA player could also lock down the opponent in air block string which drastically lower the guard gauge, use an untechable air throw. In personal 4 arena players could opt to use their C+D special which beat grabs attempts instead of grab teching into neutral.
    We shouldn't limit fighter by the practice of "traditional fighter" because we wouldn't have Fighters like MK, KI, Smash, Virtua fighter. Bloody roar, Powerstone, Pokken,ect.

    ALL Fighters, even non-Traditional ones, all require timing and execution based on timing. Games like Smash and KI are some of the most timing based games out there.

    On top of that, this game doesn't add mechanics to compensate for the easier AAs or anything, it just strips mechanics away. It can't even add mechanics if it wanted to BECAUSE of its commitment to being the "Simplest FG in history". If you can't trust players to understand the concept of high/low blocking then how are you going to get them to understand concepts like movement in order to avoid punishment, or things like Just Defend?

    That's the issue, and ironically you help add to my point. You're right in the sense that when you make big sweeping changes to avoid being beholden to "Traditional FGs" you have to compensate for it somewhere to make it work. The problem is, due to this game's design philosophy they can't actually add much of anything for compensation without betraying the very concept they strive to be. This is why I say Yomi will teach casuals how to play FGs better than Fantasy Strike will. Because at least that game is allowed to compensate.

    In Yomi, let's look at Grave aka Ryu Clone. He has an absurd DP. 0 frames which means it can't be beat by anything in the entire game short of a Gold Burst. If it's blocked you get some chip and the opponent gets a card but you aren't hard punished like you would be in a normal fighter. So what's the compensation? You only get 4 DPs in an entire game so you MUST use them wisely. The second Grave is without the threat of DP it's open season as his normals and moves aren't particularly fast otherwise unless he wants to go for the hail mary raw True Power of Storms. In a way, this teaches you somewhat about the proper timing of using a DP. Use it when you really need to get out of a situation but don't abuse it.

    Yomi actually does teach players also about the importance of pokes, using throws to break open a guard, how to best make use of health, crossups, 2 in 1s, making and spending bar, combo trees, hell even how to use a Burst and Bursts are actually somewhat rare in FGs. If someone is having problems grasping FG concepts and they're afraid of execution I'm much more likely to send them to playing Yomi than have them play Fantasy Strike because Yomi is much more likely to teach people concepts that they can use in multiple FGs whether traditional or not.
    PSN: Saitsuofleaves SF5 Tag: Saitsu  Baby Steps to Giant Strides
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  • NeoBloodNeoBlood kara bank account Joined: Posts: 2,815 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    pass
  • CronopioCronopio ST Joined: Posts: 2,167
    edited November 2016
    keo-bas wrote: »
    As Kecka said, developers learn to compensate for changes like this. Some game don't even make timing into factor but decision making.

    When you take execution away completely and leave only decision making you end up with a turn based strategy game. No fighting game can exist without timing; even something as simple as punishing a whiff, AAing or staying out of sweep range demands timing and execution.
  • StoneDrumStoneDrum Joined: Posts: 1,096
    edited November 2016
    input execution can be replaced by adding startup frames roughly equal to the execution time... theres absolutely zero reason why we need the complex inputs we have, but we have them because 1.) it is the traditional approach and it works, and is fun/adds charm etc. and 2.) it adds longevity by way of needing to train and what not.

    MKX has supers with L+R and specials with down forward punch etc. (insert childish whining of how mkx sucks here because reasons)

    there are no rules to game design... there are tested and tried and true ways, but there is no right or wrong way. there are only good and bad games. it is nothing but foolish to dismiss this as a bad game in its current state
  • SaitsuSaitsu When a Kid, Becomes a Legend Joined: Posts: 35,297
    StoneDrum wrote: »
    input execution can be replaced by adding startup frames roughly equal to the execution time... theres absolutely zero reason why we need the complex inputs we have, but we have them because 1.) it is the traditional approach and it works, and is fun/adds charm etc. and 2.) it adds longevity by way of needing to train and what not.

    MKX has supers with L+R and specials with down forward punch etc. (insert childish whining of how mkx sucks here because reasons)

    there are no rules to game design... there are tested and tried and true ways, but there is no right or wrong way. there are only good and bad games. it is nothing but foolish to dismiss this as a bad game in its current state

    Did I say it was a bad game? It can very well be a good game on its own merits.

    But adding startup time does NOT replace input execution and it's completely asinine to suggest. In theory it does "Oh, well if you can respond to a jump quicker, then make the move take longer to come out, it all balances out". But you're still taking away the minigame of being in the right position to execute quicker, or needing to move correctly to make a AA auto correct if necessary. Even if you can do 100 times out of 100 you're taking away the fun of everything surrounding it.

    Fantasy Strike can potentially be a fun game in its own rights, and it has every right to prove itself on that front. But it's entire intention is to serve as a gateway into other FGs, which it will not do well in. What the game SHOULD focus on is being nothing more than itself and focusing on how the game mechanics revolve around its own world and focus on being the best game it can be ignoring how other games do things. But that's kind of hard to do when so many of its characters are throwbacks or homages to notable and infamous FG characters.
    PSN: Saitsuofleaves SF5 Tag: Saitsu  Baby Steps to Giant Strides
    FC: 0490-4604-8179 
    Street Fighter 5: Vega
  • CronopioCronopio ST Joined: Posts: 2,167
    edited November 2016
    Increasing startup is a pretty terrible solution for various reasons. For example with a DP motion I can buffer the directionals and delay the button press to be able to respond quicker if I want to. With delayed startup I will have a slower attack no matter what. Of course this alters its usefulness as a reversal since longer startup makes it easier to safejump, make it harder to combo from normals and overall affect how good it is for zoning. You will have to reduce projectile recovery to allow classic shoto zoning, but of course that also carries its own set of consequences.

    Again, changes like these have chain reactions that affect multiple aspects of the game. Changing how inputs work doesn't just affect inputs.

    The reason why developers have stuck with Street Fighter II input system for so long is not out of tradition, it's because it was genius. It puts limitations to moves without sacrificing responsiveness, it's loose enough to allow flexibility but not so much as to make reactions braindead. It also lets you have many special attacks whereas with single button presses you are much more limited. And it adds an incredible amount of depth and variety to characters that is lost in a game with single presses for everything.

    Now, maybe if the input simplicity was there because it had a novel system designed around it and gave you extra tools to make it up for it, it could work. But as this seems to be Street Fighter Redux, I don't see how it can compensate.
  • PSYCH0J0SHPSYCH0J0SH Joined: Posts: 5,469
    StoneDrum wrote: »
    there are only good and bad games. it is nothing but foolish to dismiss this as a bad game in its current state

    No it's not. The mechanics are not going to drastically change between now and release. This is the summarized version of the final game. The problems with the game are already quite apparent and they go beyond being simply "bugs" or "oversights", it has more to do with the flawed design of the game itself.
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  • Jion_WansuJion_Wansu Joined: Posts: 6,261
    I understand how important is to bring new players into the FGC, but I don't think that making games like this will really help. Contrary to the common belief, motions and combos are the easy part of the fighting games. Spacing, AA'ing, blocking and reacting to things is much, MUCH harder than throwing fireballs or performing a ground strings. This game goes further by removing the high/low mixup, but I feel that this will make more harm than good for two reasons. First, attack/throw is already a difficult mixup for someone who's not used to FGs. Two, newbs don't have the patience to just block and play a reaction based game. They want to press buttons and will lose to zoning/super armor anyway.

    The reason why Smash Brothers is so popular among children have little to do with simplified motions. Of course, this helps a lot, but what really make people to play this game more than once is that there are many things to do in the game. You can play alone vs the machine, you can call up to 7 friends to play simutaneously, you can play the game's story/arcade mode, you can play with the alternate game modes (coin/stamina), you can face more than one AI controlled opponents, etc. By the time a smash player decides to enter the competitive scene, he/she will already have many hours of gameplay and will have a good notion on how to play this game and this will help. Of course, there's still a lot to learn in order to have a chance on the competitive side of the game, but this person already love it, so, this won't be a problem.

    As much as I hate Mortal Kombat, I must admit that MKX does it right. The game have a good amount of single player content and this helps to bring people into the FGC. The amount of players that keep playing the game competitively is much smaller than the people that buy it just for the casual fun. But that's a reality that we have to face. Very few individuals are willing to put time and effort into video games and no amount of accessible fighting games will change this.

    What I want to say on this long ass post is that games like this one will likely to fail like Rising Thunder. Casual players will get bored of getting stomped and will not bother to learn tatics like tick throws and frame traps and veteran players will just skip it because is too simple for them. For me, the ideal fighting game is the one that have both single player content to casuals enjoy and learn while playing and deep gameplay that will keep veterans interested on it. I really hope I'm wrong and this game succeeds, bringing a lot of new players to the FGC, because I love fighting games and I really want them to grow. But I'm not having much faith on this.

    Piggybacking off of you MK comment...


    MK1 pretty much took me away from SF back in 1992. I thought that Capcom was shit when they tried to get back the old SF players that went to MK by releasing Super and Super Turbo. The game that got me back into SF was CVS2. The game that got me away from the MK franchise was MK4 and the lack of MK competition when MK4 came out. MK5, MK6, and MK7 kinda got me back into MK, but that was short lived because there were no serious tournaments or competition for those games.

    Fast forward to now. I haven't played MKX or SF5 yet, but I have played MK9 and SF4 once each. I didn't like it SF4 or MK9. Although, SF5 kinda reminds me of that old school SF2 feel while MKX kinda reminds me of that oldschool MK2/UMK3 feel based on the streams I've seen. I'll have to play MKX and SF5 one of these days.
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 37,144 mod
    The thing is, if you read the writings of both Seth and Sirlin (especially Sirlin), you can kinda tell that they do value decision making and making the right reads/decisions over the mechanical execution behind it. I'd say that to them, that aspect of fighting games is more interesting and engaging over reaction, mechanical execution, etc. This is something that shows in both the games they enjoy, as well as those that they design. In other words, they're simply making games that emphasize that part of fighting games that they enjoy the most. It's less about "I'm going to do so and so really fast, and see if you can react to that" and more "here's what I'm going to do, what's your answer to it".
  • Evolution169Evolution169 Wake up DP is unbeatable Joined: Posts: 1,089
    Can't wait to see this abomination at EVO.
  • UlrikUlrik Joined: Posts: 28
    Saitsu wrote: »
    Fantasy Strike can potentially be a fun game in its own rights, and it has every right to prove itself on that front. But it's entire intention is to serve as a gateway into other FGs, which it will not do well in. What the game SHOULD focus on is being nothing more than itself and focusing on how the game mechanics revolve around its own world and focus on being the best game it can be ignoring how other games do things. But that's kind of hard to do when so many of its characters are throwbacks or homages to notable and infamous FG characters.

    I think that Fantasy Strike is focusing on being it's own thing for the right crowd more than being a "gateway game" - some of us might "graduate" to other fighting games, but certainly not all. It attempts to highlight and show off a part of fighting games that's usually beyond a lot of gamers (for various reasons). This is useful for introducing more people, but will also stand perfectly fine on its own.

    As for how these characters come close to being a "rip-off" of Street Fighter, that's more down to Sirlin Games' history than this specific game - Yomi (the card game) was designed to be an SF2 card game (there are rumours that they tried for the license, but I got no clue if those are true). So the Yomi "setting" is based on SF2 to various degrees, but Sirlin has continued to use it for all his games and has built on it. So when he does make a fighting game, using the Yomi characters is the obvious choice.
    d3v wrote: »
    The thing is, if you read the writings of both Seth and Sirlin (especially Sirlin), you can kinda tell that they do value decision making and making the right reads/decisions over the mechanical execution behind it. I'd say that to them, that aspect of fighting games is more interesting and engaging over reaction, mechanical execution, etc. This is something that shows in both the games they enjoy, as well as those that they design. In other words, they're simply making games that emphasize that part of fighting games that they enjoy the most. It's less about "I'm going to do so and so really fast, and see if you can react to that" and more "here's what I'm going to do, what's your answer to it".

    Exactly this. Fantasy Strike is an attempt to boil a fighting game down to what Sirlin thinks is the essence, or more correctly, to what he thinks are the best parts of fighting games. Everybody has the right to their own opinion on what makes a game great, and this is his.
    Cronopio wrote: »
    Hopefully you get interested in moving to other fighting games afterwards because execution is one of the biggest aspects that make the genre work. Fighters are about strategy and execution (footsies are also heavily execution based too so you won't be able to avoid it entirely), for pure strategy there are better options than fighting games.

    The timing aspect is still present, and important (otherwise I'd just play Yomi!). But flipping a card after getting to think about the right play isn't the same as frantically pushing the right button at the right time. Thinking fast is different from thinking deeply, but it's still a mental task.
  • BossBrownBossBrown Joined: Posts: 98

    Ulrik wrote: »
    Saitsu wrote: »
    Fantasy Strike can potentially be a fun game in its own rights, and it has every right to prove itself on that front. But it's entire intention is to serve as a gateway into other FGs, which it will not do well in. What the game SHOULD focus on is being nothing more than itself and focusing on how the game mechanics revolve around its own world and focus on being the best game it can be ignoring how other games do things. But that's kind of hard to do when so many of its characters are throwbacks or homages to notable and infamous FG characters.

    I think that Fantasy Strike is focusing on being it's own thing for the right crowd more than being a "gateway game" - some of us might "graduate" to other fighting games, but certainly not all. It attempts to highlight and show off a part of fighting games that's usually beyond a lot of gamers (for various reasons). This is useful for introducing more people, but will also stand perfectly fine on its own.

    As for how these characters come close to being a "rip-off" of Street Fighter, that's more down to Sirlin Games' history than this specific game - Yomi (the card game) was designed to be an SF2 card game (there are rumours that they tried for the license, but I got no clue if those are true). So the Yomi "setting" is based on SF2 to various degrees, but Sirlin has continued to use it for all his games and has built on it. So when he does make a fighting game, using the Yomi characters is the obvious choice.
    d3v wrote: »
    The thing is, if you read the writings of both Seth and Sirlin (especially Sirlin), you can kinda tell that they do value decision making and making the right reads/decisions over the mechanical execution behind it. I'd say that to them, that aspect of fighting games is more interesting and engaging over reaction, mechanical execution, etc. This is something that shows in both the games they enjoy, as well as those that they design. In other words, they're simply making games that emphasize that part of fighting games that they enjoy the most. It's less about "I'm going to do so and so really fast, and see if you can react to that" and more "here's what I'm going to do, what's your answer to it".

    Exactly this. Fantasy Strike is an attempt to boil a fighting game down to what Sirlin thinks is the essence, or more correctly, to what he thinks are the best parts of fighting games. Everybody has the right to their own opinion on what makes a game great, and this is his.
    Cronopio wrote: »
    Hopefully you get interested in moving to other fighting games afterwards because execution is one of the biggest aspects that make the genre work. Fighters are about strategy and execution (footsies are also heavily execution based too so you won't be able to avoid it entirely), for pure strategy there are better options than fighting games.

    The timing aspect is still present, and important (otherwise I'd just play Yomi!). But flipping a card after getting to think about the right play isn't the same as frantically pushing the right button at the right time. Thinking fast is different from thinking deeply, but it's still a mental task.

    Having your own opinion on what makes a great game is fine as long as you dont get the hump when others do not agree especially if you are trying to push it as a specific genre and to its main group which despite everyone having varying interests in fighters they can all collectively say no and you are ok with that then all is bless. Like I said bringing in new people or even a different type of game for new people is all bless but there is generally no real appeal in here for fighter players. Thinking deeply can go into almost any game, thinking fast only features in a few genres generally side scrollers, Mobas and fighters. Thinking fast is a part of fighters not just mechanically but in its appeal.
    Basically make the game however you want but I believe it would be a huge mistake to push this game out to the fighting game players and believe they will get favourable acceptence of it how it is right now especially with the almost unaimous feelings about the game from this chat. Most of the people who are on the side of "giving it a chance" are mostly just hopefuls hence you have people saying things as about being wrong to judge the game in its current state.
    The main problem here is not what they are trying to achieve which they have made clear, it is the decision they have made to go about it. People are only being helpful here by saying about the natural flaws that they can see or will occur in the game that have come from the developers collection of choices, it is mostly the fact that they are not doing or trying anything new what so ever they are just removing vast amounts of a pre-existing creation essentially crippling it, whether they choose to take that onboard is entirely upto them. Wish the game all the best anyway when it is about I will give it a go and hey I might even enjoy it but even if I do if it remains similar to as is I know that I will enjoy it for other reasons rather then enjoying it as a fighter.
  • KeckaKecka Psycho Crushing that booty Joined: Posts: 1,742
    StoneDrum wrote: »
    input execution can be replaced by adding startup frames roughly equal to the execution time... theres absolutely zero reason why we need the complex inputs we have, but we have them because 1.) it is the traditional approach and it works, and is fun/adds charm etc. and 2.) it adds longevity by way of needing to train and what not.

    MKX has supers with L+R and specials with down forward punch etc. (insert childish whining of how mkx sucks here because reasons)

    there are no rules to game design... there are tested and tried and true ways, but there is no right or wrong way. there are only good and bad games. it is nothing but foolish to dismiss this as a bad game in its current state

    On the topic of MK, I think that 1) those inputs aren't easier aside from maybe DPs since I find rolling the stick easier than jerking it in directions (and in the MK games where you can just do fireball motions it makes no difference), and 2) in games using traditional SF inputs there's generally a sort of "standardized" motion-to-move protocol that just doesn't exist in MK. For example, if I were to throw a fireball in a Street Fighter game, or KI, or KoF, or whatever, I'd probably try quarter circle forward with a punch button. Likewise, with a DP I'd try DP motions, and a command grab I'd try 360s. I can probably guess like 75% of all moves in any given Street Fighter game after I've figured out whether a character is charge or motions, even the ones like EX, where I don't know more than half the roster. In MK or Injustice, that's not a thing, because everyone just seems to have random motions and buttons for even very similar moves. And I know that's an extremely surface level problem that will disappear within days of picking up the game, but if the idea is to make it easier on new players, breaking conventions for the sake of breaking them adds an artificial learning curve for anyone used to any other 2d fighter.

    Also, like I said, motions do serve purposes outside of their original ones (which was basically either "hidden moves" or cabinets not having enough buttons). Charge characters play very differently because of their need to hold down back and therefore can have moves that would be overpowered for motion characters. This also means that crossing them up can remove part of their arsenal or forcing them to block an overhead or walk forward/backward will fuck with their down charges, meaning that on the offense they either need to jump or charge their specials during normals. A Guile who can walk forward and boom/flash kick is suddenly a ridiculous rushdown character. Stuff like charge partitioning, input buffering, option selects and auto-corrects largely came as a direct consequence of the inputs of various moves. Getting rid of motions isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it's not as easy as "it's artificial difficulty", because it has evolved to the point where it is part of the genre and you kind of need to make a system that still allows that level of advanced gameplay and undiscovered tech.

    Look at Melee. I know, I know, people will probably shit all over me now. But it's the perfect example of a game with simple inputs that still has some extremely high-level (if unintended) techniques. A lot of players prefer that game to Brawl, where Nintendo essentially looked at it and went "well, fuck you for having fun in a way we didn't intend, have random tripping". Sure, it's a bit different since the advanced techniques in Smash only come into play at high levels, whereas motions in Street Fighter are required at the most casual level, but the idea is that if you're going to simplify the control scheme, you need to make sure that the game itself doesn't lose complexity at a high level, or you're just going to end up with a product that isn't as popular once the casuals get tired of it after a few months. You want to make it easier to get to the complex stuff, you don't want to remove the complex stuff altogether. Which is why I liked Rising Thunder, because even though I wasn't the biggest fan of cooldown specials and the aesthetics, that game was basically all footsies.
    I suck dicks at fighting games.

    I also suck dicks. I don't think these two facts are related.
  • itzpookiieitzpookiie Sherry Jenix's Soulmate Joined: Posts: 4,469
    edited November 2016
    There are a bunch of games being created everyday
    Copy and pasting animations from another game though

    That's just disgusting
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 37,144 mod
    JohnGrimm wrote: »
    d3v wrote: »
    The thing is, if you read the writings of both Seth and Sirlin (especially Sirlin), you can kinda tell that they do value decision making and making the right reads/decisions over the mechanical execution behind it. I'd say that to them, that aspect of fighting games is more interesting and engaging over reaction, mechanical execution, etc. This is something that shows in both the games they enjoy, as well as those that they design. In other words, they're simply making games that emphasize that part of fighting games that they enjoy the most. It's less about "I'm going to do so and so really fast, and see if you can react to that" and more "here's what I'm going to do, what's your answer to it".

    I mean yeah this is their goal, it's just curious that both of them value decision making, but every game they make reduces the number of options drastically making decision making process much easier and in a way less important than what ends up dominating the game which you can bank on being reactions and matchups since less options = less ways to deal with situations = matchups become more rigid and for instance the decision to jump a fireball is less important to your reactions to the fireball to not get punished for jumping too late.

    Basically long story short their design concepts IMO are not conducive to what they consider the best parts of fighting games. I mean, I highly value decision making myself but turning the "rock-paper-scissors" of fighting games into ACTUAL rock-paper-scissors makes me uninterested by a great deal. The complexity is what makes that decision making interesting, that's the real reason why Divekick was a fun party game that didn't have legs and died a week after launch. You can scream from the mountaintops about how easy your game is or how it's about footsies and fundamental play, but fact of the matter is a game needs more than just spacing and RPS to be enjoyable for a long period of time.

    Well it's highly likely that they think otherwise. I mean, just look at the games they enjoy the most - games like ST and Alpha 2. There's a simplicity in those games (remember Sirlin and low strong) and the way they play them that informs their ideas and decisions on making their own games.
  • Remy77077Remy77077 futility fighting Joined: Posts: 352
    edited November 2016
    Ulrik wrote: »
    I think that Fantasy Strike is focusing on being it's own thing for the right crowd more than being a "gateway game" - some of us might "graduate" to other fighting games, but certainly not all. It attempts to highlight and show off a part of fighting games that's usually beyond a lot of gamers (for various reasons). This is useful for introducing more people, but will also stand perfectly fine on its own.

    Fantastic post. You totally understand this.

    Fantasy Strike will also appeal to SOME existing fighting game players. I'm one of them, and I've introduced it to a bunch more who like it too. Just depends on your tastes really. If you're an MvC player and want mega combo execution etc then yeah, I wouldn't think this would have much appeal to you. Heck, read my OP, I said in that the kinds of players I thought this would most appeal to there as well.

    I hope many of you try it out though one day, as they HAVE come up with answers already to how to do charge moves - on a meter as explained above, and also they are really wary of how good a DP type of move is in this type of game system, and every DP-style move has some vast downsides to them - for a start, most of them are Super moves only, so also on a meter essentially.
    Ulrik wrote: »
    As for how these characters come close to being a "rip-off" of Street Fighter, that's more down to Sirlin Games' history than this specific game - Yomi (the card game) was designed to be an SF2 card game (there are rumours that they tried for the license, but I got no clue if those are true). So the Yomi "setting" is based on SF2 to various degrees, but Sirlin has continued to use it for all his games and has built on it. So when he does make a fighting game, using the Yomi characters is the obvious choice.

    I can confirm it was true. At one point Yomi was close to being an official SF2 card game :)
    http://www.agoners.com My gaming website
  • StoneDrumStoneDrum Joined: Posts: 1,096
    Muttonman wrote: »
    StoneDrum wrote: »
    input execution can be replaced by adding startup frames roughly equal to the execution time... theres absolutely zero reason why we need the complex inputs we have, but we have them because 1.) it is the traditional approach and it works, and is fun/adds charm etc. and 2.) it adds longevity by way of needing to train and what not.

    MKX has supers with L+R and specials with down forward punch etc. (insert childish whining of how mkx sucks here because reasons)

    there are no rules to game design... there are tested and tried and true ways, but there is no right or wrong way. there are only good and bad games. it is nothing but foolish to dismiss this as a bad game in its current state

    No, because if a move that was 3 frames with a harder input is now 6 frames, you can't punish -3 moves with it or frametrap there. You also can't be buffering in case you see something you want to use the move against.

    You can design around having simple moves, as MKX did by making you want to use meter on breakers instead of supers, but if you don't understand why inputs exist you should go back and examine that instead of making idiotic comments.

    the point of my post is there are ways to work around changing inputs by changing the game design as well. My point was there is no need for complex controls. The arguments I'm seeing here raise good insight of why we use the motions we use, but they don't argue well against why a game can't control like fantasy strike does... Whether the developers realize the potential pitfalls, and how they will overcome them through how they design the game is to be determined. But again, there's no reason why they can't do the controls as they are, as long as they can make it work, and it can through mindful game design. Will the meta end up comparable to other fighting games? maybe not. But maybe it will be pleasantly different and fresh by the time it is finished.
  • JohnGrimmJohnGrimm A.K.A. JohnXuandou Joined: Posts: 4,333
    d3v wrote: »
    JohnGrimm wrote: »
    d3v wrote: »
    The thing is, if you read the writings of both Seth and Sirlin (especially Sirlin), you can kinda tell that they do value decision making and making the right reads/decisions over the mechanical execution behind it. I'd say that to them, that aspect of fighting games is more interesting and engaging over reaction, mechanical execution, etc. This is something that shows in both the games they enjoy, as well as those that they design. In other words, they're simply making games that emphasize that part of fighting games that they enjoy the most. It's less about "I'm going to do so and so really fast, and see if you can react to that" and more "here's what I'm going to do, what's your answer to it".

    I mean yeah this is their goal, it's just curious that both of them value decision making, but every game they make reduces the number of options drastically making decision making process much easier and in a way less important than what ends up dominating the game which you can bank on being reactions and matchups since less options = less ways to deal with situations = matchups become more rigid and for instance the decision to jump a fireball is less important to your reactions to the fireball to not get punished for jumping too late.

    Basically long story short their design concepts IMO are not conducive to what they consider the best parts of fighting games. I mean, I highly value decision making myself but turning the "rock-paper-scissors" of fighting games into ACTUAL rock-paper-scissors makes me uninterested by a great deal. The complexity is what makes that decision making interesting, that's the real reason why Divekick was a fun party game that didn't have legs and died a week after launch. You can scream from the mountaintops about how easy your game is or how it's about footsies and fundamental play, but fact of the matter is a game needs more than just spacing and RPS to be enjoyable for a long period of time.

    Well it's highly likely that they think otherwise. I mean, just look at the games they enjoy the most - games like ST and Alpha 2. There's a simplicity in those games (remember Sirlin and low strong) and the way they play them that informs their ideas and decisions on making their own games.

    I wouldn't say those games are all that simple really. Basic strategies can be very effective in them though as long as you are good at understanding the opponent which is definitely Sirlin's style and his absolute obsession with "Yomi". The problem here though is that everyone is being reduced to basic strategies without any layering going on which still to me doesn't seem like the best idea if your favorite thing is the decision making of fighting games. Again, when the options are so limited, figuring out what your opponent wants to do is really easy because in most situations there's only one or two things they even can do to begin with. You're not making reads so much as you are brute forcing the matchup. Seeing early footage of matches in this game already makes it look like it's going to be MOBA levels of counterpicking in a fighting game which sounds super whack to me. There is some compensation by making move properties ridiculous, but we've seen games with ridiculous move properties before like Marvel and that doesn't stop bad matchups from being horrible. I get where you're coming from and Sirlin's ideas make sense on paper, I just don't think they make sense in practice.
    You lack devotion! Enduring hunger and poverty is how you find the way!
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 37,144 mod
    JohnGrimm wrote: »
    d3v wrote: »
    JohnGrimm wrote: »
    d3v wrote: »
    The thing is, if you read the writings of both Seth and Sirlin (especially Sirlin), you can kinda tell that they do value decision making and making the right reads/decisions over the mechanical execution behind it. I'd say that to them, that aspect of fighting games is more interesting and engaging over reaction, mechanical execution, etc. This is something that shows in both the games they enjoy, as well as those that they design. In other words, they're simply making games that emphasize that part of fighting games that they enjoy the most. It's less about "I'm going to do so and so really fast, and see if you can react to that" and more "here's what I'm going to do, what's your answer to it".

    I mean yeah this is their goal, it's just curious that both of them value decision making, but every game they make reduces the number of options drastically making decision making process much easier and in a way less important than what ends up dominating the game which you can bank on being reactions and matchups since less options = less ways to deal with situations = matchups become more rigid and for instance the decision to jump a fireball is less important to your reactions to the fireball to not get punished for jumping too late.

    Basically long story short their design concepts IMO are not conducive to what they consider the best parts of fighting games. I mean, I highly value decision making myself but turning the "rock-paper-scissors" of fighting games into ACTUAL rock-paper-scissors makes me uninterested by a great deal. The complexity is what makes that decision making interesting, that's the real reason why Divekick was a fun party game that didn't have legs and died a week after launch. You can scream from the mountaintops about how easy your game is or how it's about footsies and fundamental play, but fact of the matter is a game needs more than just spacing and RPS to be enjoyable for a long period of time.

    Well it's highly likely that they think otherwise. I mean, just look at the games they enjoy the most - games like ST and Alpha 2. There's a simplicity in those games (remember Sirlin and low strong) and the way they play them that informs their ideas and decisions on making their own games.

    I wouldn't say those games are all that simple really. Basic strategies can be very effective in them though as long as you are good at understanding the opponent which is definitely Sirlin's style and his absolute obsession with "Yomi". The problem here though is that everyone is being reduced to basic strategies without any layering going on which still to me doesn't seem like the best idea if your favorite thing is the decision making of fighting games. Again, when the options are so limited, figuring out what your opponent wants to do is really easy because in most situations there's only one or two things they even can do to begin with. You're not making reads so much as you are brute forcing the matchup. Seeing early footage of matches in this game already makes it look like it's going to be MOBA levels of counterpicking in a fighting game which sounds super whack to me. There is some compensation by making move properties ridiculous, but we've seen games with ridiculous move properties before like Marvel and that doesn't stop bad matchups from being horrible. I get where you're coming from and Sirlin's ideas make sense on paper, I just don't think they make sense in practice.

    Well, Sirlin seems to enjoy more the whole decision process of "I did this because you thought I was going to do that, so I did this instead".

    Also, coming from ST and A2, these guys probably do like counter picking (remember, Sirlin ran Ryu, 'Gief and Rose in A2, sometimes bringing all three out in grand finals).
  • KomatikKomatik Card demon Joined: Posts: 2,669
    d3v wrote: »
    Well, Sirlin seems to enjoy more the whole decision process of "I did this because you thought I was going to do that, so I did this instead".

    Also, coming from ST and A2, these guys probably do like counter picking (remember, Sirlin ran Ryu, 'Gief and Rose in A2, sometimes bringing all three out in grand finals).

    Sirlin's definitely on record as a vocal opponent of character lock.
    Steam/Fightcade:Coffeeling
    Xrd: ? | ST: Claw, Ryu, O.Sagat | 3S: Chun-Li, Akuma
  • MuttonmanMuttonman Joined: Posts: 2,877
    Good lord. Despite both being DPs, a Volcanic Viper is not a Shoryuken. You could at least do this much with deGray's Dandy's even if you want to keep the Pilebunker looking the same as the card. Same goes for most other characters; the cards have a single frame on them. Make the animations unique around said frame.
  • PSYCH0J0SHPSYCH0J0SH Joined: Posts: 5,469
    It's Skullgirls all over again...
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  • KomatikKomatik Card demon Joined: Posts: 2,669
    edited November 2016
    Post edited by Komatik on
    Steam/Fightcade:Coffeeling
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  • PSYCH0J0SHPSYCH0J0SH Joined: Posts: 5,469
    d3v wrote: »
    PSYCH0J0SH wrote: »
    It's Skullgirls all over again...
    Your jealousy at Mike actually being able to put out a good game is showing.

    Wake me when he does.
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  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 37,144 mod
    PSYCH0J0SH wrote: »
    d3v wrote: »
    PSYCH0J0SH wrote: »
    It's Skullgirls all over again...
    Your jealousy at Mike actually being able to put out a good game is showing.

    Wake me when he does.

    We would if your head wasn't so far up your ass because of your own biased. Game you don't like != bad game.

    Mike has included in his game a number of ideas/concepts that would make any fighter better.

    Going back on topic, the thing that would be applicable to our discussion here is his theory on inputs. Skullgirls does have traditional move inputs, however, even he admits that some inputs are unnecessary. So his rule is that anything more complex than a qcf, hcf, dp, rd, sonic boom, flash kick, or 360 motion is unnecessary. Half circles are only for when you run out of motions to assign a move to (which is never in his game) and he states that any competent player can pull off hcfs just as fast as qcfs, so it's just unneeded complexity. Compare with DPs which, alongside being a smidge harder to pull off than qcfs, require the player character to stand (or should require them to do so).

    As for input windows, he's come up with a formula for them - 4 framed for every input, plus an additional 4 frames for every time two inputs are not beside each other (e.g. going from forward to down in the dp motion).

    TL:DR Mike's created a sort of compromise, a halfway point between traditional inputs (which his game does have) and the direction that some have been going with 1 button moves (admitting that some motions are unnecessary).
  • PSYCH0J0SHPSYCH0J0SH Joined: Posts: 5,469
    edited November 2016
    d3v wrote: »
    PSYCH0J0SH wrote: »
    d3v wrote: »
    PSYCH0J0SH wrote: »
    It's Skullgirls all over again...
    Your jealousy at Mike actually being able to put out a good game is showing.

    Wake me when he does.

    We would if your head wasn't so far up your ass because of your own biased. Game you don't like != bad game.


    Mike has included in his game a number of ideas/concepts that would make any fighter better.

    If you really think pointing out extremely obvious flaws with Capcom and NRS games and addressing them in his own game makes him some sort of genius, well... honestly that's just more of the same SG fanboy gush I've come to expect from you. I think anyone with even a passing interest in competitive fighting game play is able to see these flaws and apply their own solutions. There is nothing, and I mean NOTHING about his observations or ideas that are earth-shattering knowledge. Just because he gloats about it like he's the first person to make these observations doesn't mean he actually is. And maybe if I followed his example and let Capcom do the hard part of designing my game for me, I'd have something out by now.

    So yeah, don't break your arm jerking him off, fanboy. Game you like ≠ good game.
    Post edited by PSYCH0J0SH on
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  • 3417gekko3417gekko Scrub Joined: Posts: 78
    PVL_93_RU wrote: »
    Reminder that his game directly copies the following move animations for its characters
    Fucktons of animations
    No but remix culture tho.
    Like how Vanilla Ice "remixed" under pressure or how Stree Overlord remixed Street Fighter.
    As long as you have a limp-dicked excuse you can get away with actual theft.

  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 37,144 mod
    JohnGrimm wrote: »
    I disagree with Mike's opinion on half circle and greater moves. If competent players can do them, there is no problem. The idea that more complex motions are unnecessary strikes me as someone who doesn't think about the implications those inputs have for very long. Consider the DP motion, why do anti airs consistently use a DP motion instead of a fireball motion or something easier/faster to input? Because the move is intentionally awkward and affects how fast you can input it which changes how you react to things. You could argue that the original goal was to allow for more inputs in the same button space, but I would argue that at some point in the last 30 or so years of competitive fighting game play that stops being the reason. Game developers wouldn't KEEP doing DP motions forever just for that reason when there are other decisions you could make to solve that issue, and the community would not be so vehemently opposed to 1 button DP's because of how they affect the meta and how a character is played. The same is true for half circle and other more complex motions. They have a purpose, you just have to design that purpose, and I think KoF and Guilty Gear do that very well. Mike has a lot of problems with KoF/GG inputs for seemingly no reason other than they "could be" simplified, but that idea is bunk to me, everything could be simplified a great deal, why stop at getting rid of half circles, get rid of DP's and fireball motions too because those can be simplified and eventually you end up with Fantasy Strike and all of a sudden no one wants to play your game anymore. Instead, consider the implications of the motions and how they affect play.

    For instance, KoF command grabs are consistently half circle forward inputs for 1 frame throws (barring a few of course for other reasons) while slower command throws are consistently half circle back or the variant half circle back into forward (barring a few of course for other reasons). This isn't by accident or tradition, I refuse to believe that SNK over the past 20 years just randomly decided this and never changed it for no reason. Look at the applications of these moves though, with a 1 frame command throw what's the one thing you would really love to have on the ready whenever you need it? Punishes, making sure people don't get away with unsafe moves or people who are too cute with their frame trap pressure. Well as it just so happens 99% of the time your 1 frame command throw is a HCF input, which just so happens to start from a blocking position, which means you can easily block and transition into the motion to get your 1 frame punish easy. But, you might say, it doesn't need to be a half circle to do that, it could be a fireball motion and it would give you the same result. And that's very true, however that's only one situation, but that motion affects you in all situations. What's really awkward to do before buffering a HCF input? Moving forward! What's a big part of KoF? Running! So these inputs also end up being more difficult to use in offensive situations. Not impossible to use, but because of the input, your 1 frame command throw will never come out in 1 frame or anywhere near that in an offensive situation because of how awkward it is to throw it out while moving forward, defensively it's a 1 frame move all day every day, but offensively at BEST you're looking at a 5 frame move, but more realistically 7 to 10 frames. You know what input is really easy to do while moving forward? Half circle back! And because of that, a lot of characters who are more offensively mixup oriented end up with half circle back command throw inputs (or the variant). BUT! What did I say earlier? Slower command throws have this input, and they are slower for the exact reason that they have this input. Because it's easy to do a HCB while running (from the run input you can just roll a QCB and get the input in 2-4 frames), the throws are made slower so that they are not insane offensively, they become proper mixup tools.

    You could probably look at some frame data and do some math and come to the conclusion that offensively, these two throws including the inputs will come out at the same time roughly, so the inputs don't matter. But that's also wrong, because those HCB moves are intentionally made slower, so they can NEVER be used in the same way as the 1 frame command throws can be used defensively unless they have invincibility. This creates an even further distancing in abilities between characters who are great at punishing and being a wall (grapplers) and characters who have strong mixup (rushdown characters) and allows you to give rushdown characters like Iori a command throw and it doesn't break the game because Iori has all the options, because he doesn't have all the options, he just has a lot of options. It's very possible to be smart in how you design inputs and more complex inputs can be used effectively, it's on the designer to make sure they ARE used effectively. I think to write off a game design element as unnecessary entirely is pretty close minded. I understand that it clashed with Mike's idea for a fighting game and that's fine and he's totally right to want to design a game in that way, but I think it should be obvious that all games are not designed equally and what works for one game might not work for another.

    I think you're missing the forest for the trees. The point was that, maybe there is a point of compromise. That maybe, there is a certain point (that may differ between the games) where some inputs become unnecessary. Even KOFXIV did this to some point, specifically with removing the pretzel input for Geese's Raging Storm. I was using Skullgirls simply as an example of a game doing this.

    That said, Mike does acknowledge that the motions do serve a purpose in regards to how a move is used. This is why he still uses traditional DP inputs and was very critical of P4A using 2 buttons for "DP" style moves (and SF's new DP shortcut), since it takes away the slight awkwardness of the motion, and the fact that the motion in itself requires the player to stand their character, adding extra risk. Also, regarding the half circles, a good number of the things you described can be applied using quarter circles, even the bit with command throws. In fact, Skullgirls does have a characters with runs and command throws. Both Valentines's Mortuary Drop and Fukua's Inevitable Snuggle are qcb+p+lk, both have slow start ups (25 frames for Valentines, 30 frame for Fukua, though the latter has 5 hits of armor). However, Fukua also has Tender Embrace which is qcf+lp+lk, and comes out much faster at 8 frames (for comparison, the fastest light normal is 5 frames). Meanwhile, grapplers with dashes instead of runs get faster throws, with Cerebella's Diamond Drop (qcf+lp+lk) coming out in 4 frames with invulnerable start up.
  • JohnGrimmJohnGrimm A.K.A. JohnXuandou Joined: Posts: 4,333
    d3v wrote: »
    JohnGrimm wrote: »
    I disagree with Mike's opinion on half circle and greater moves. If competent players can do them, there is no problem. The idea that more complex motions are unnecessary strikes me as someone who doesn't think about the implications those inputs have for very long. Consider the DP motion, why do anti airs consistently use a DP motion instead of a fireball motion or something easier/faster to input? Because the move is intentionally awkward and affects how fast you can input it which changes how you react to things. You could argue that the original goal was to allow for more inputs in the same button space, but I would argue that at some point in the last 30 or so years of competitive fighting game play that stops being the reason. Game developers wouldn't KEEP doing DP motions forever just for that reason when there are other decisions you could make to solve that issue, and the community would not be so vehemently opposed to 1 button DP's because of how they affect the meta and how a character is played. The same is true for half circle and other more complex motions. They have a purpose, you just have to design that purpose, and I think KoF and Guilty Gear do that very well. Mike has a lot of problems with KoF/GG inputs for seemingly no reason other than they "could be" simplified, but that idea is bunk to me, everything could be simplified a great deal, why stop at getting rid of half circles, get rid of DP's and fireball motions too because those can be simplified and eventually you end up with Fantasy Strike and all of a sudden no one wants to play your game anymore. Instead, consider the implications of the motions and how they affect play.

    For instance, KoF command grabs are consistently half circle forward inputs for 1 frame throws (barring a few of course for other reasons) while slower command throws are consistently half circle back or the variant half circle back into forward (barring a few of course for other reasons). This isn't by accident or tradition, I refuse to believe that SNK over the past 20 years just randomly decided this and never changed it for no reason. Look at the applications of these moves though, with a 1 frame command throw what's the one thing you would really love to have on the ready whenever you need it? Punishes, making sure people don't get away with unsafe moves or people who are too cute with their frame trap pressure. Well as it just so happens 99% of the time your 1 frame command throw is a HCF input, which just so happens to start from a blocking position, which means you can easily block and transition into the motion to get your 1 frame punish easy. But, you might say, it doesn't need to be a half circle to do that, it could be a fireball motion and it would give you the same result. And that's very true, however that's only one situation, but that motion affects you in all situations. What's really awkward to do before buffering a HCF input? Moving forward! What's a big part of KoF? Running! So these inputs also end up being more difficult to use in offensive situations. Not impossible to use, but because of the input, your 1 frame command throw will never come out in 1 frame or anywhere near that in an offensive situation because of how awkward it is to throw it out while moving forward, defensively it's a 1 frame move all day every day, but offensively at BEST you're looking at a 5 frame move, but more realistically 7 to 10 frames. You know what input is really easy to do while moving forward? Half circle back! And because of that, a lot of characters who are more offensively mixup oriented end up with half circle back command throw inputs (or the variant). BUT! What did I say earlier? Slower command throws have this input, and they are slower for the exact reason that they have this input. Because it's easy to do a HCB while running (from the run input you can just roll a QCB and get the input in 2-4 frames), the throws are made slower so that they are not insane offensively, they become proper mixup tools.

    You could probably look at some frame data and do some math and come to the conclusion that offensively, these two throws including the inputs will come out at the same time roughly, so the inputs don't matter. But that's also wrong, because those HCB moves are intentionally made slower, so they can NEVER be used in the same way as the 1 frame command throws can be used defensively unless they have invincibility. This creates an even further distancing in abilities between characters who are great at punishing and being a wall (grapplers) and characters who have strong mixup (rushdown characters) and allows you to give rushdown characters like Iori a command throw and it doesn't break the game because Iori has all the options, because he doesn't have all the options, he just has a lot of options. It's very possible to be smart in how you design inputs and more complex inputs can be used effectively, it's on the designer to make sure they ARE used effectively. I think to write off a game design element as unnecessary entirely is pretty close minded. I understand that it clashed with Mike's idea for a fighting game and that's fine and he's totally right to want to design a game in that way, but I think it should be obvious that all games are not designed equally and what works for one game might not work for another.

    I think you're missing the forest for the trees. The point was that, maybe there is a point of compromise. That maybe, there is a certain point (that may differ between the games) where some inputs become unnecessary. Even KOFXIV did this to some point, specifically with removing the pretzel input for Geese's Raging Storm. I was using Skullgirls simply as an example of a game doing this.

    That said, Mike does acknowledge that the motions do serve a purpose in regards to how a move is used. This is why he still uses traditional DP inputs and was very critical of P4A using 2 buttons for "DP" style moves (and SF's new DP shortcut), since it takes away the slight awkwardness of the motion, and the fact that the motion in itself requires the player to stand their character, adding extra risk. Also, regarding the half circles, a good number of the things you described can be applied using quarter circles, even the bit with command throws. In fact, Skullgirls does have a characters with runs and command throws. Both Valentines's Mortuary Drop and Fukua's Inevitable Snuggle are qcb+p+lk, both have slow start ups (25 frames for Valentines, 30 frame for Fukua, though the latter has 5 hits of armor). However, Fukua also has Tender Embrace which is qcf+lp+lk, and comes out much faster at 8 frames (for comparison, the fastest light normal is 5 frames). Meanwhile, grapplers with dashes instead of runs get faster throws, with Cerebella's Diamond Drop (qcf+lp+lk) coming out in 4 frames with invulnerable start up.

    My point was that some things can't be compromised. The designs serve a purpose and you can't retrofit different designs into old games and have them function the same. Fantasy Strike for all intents and purposes is BASICALLY SF2 but easy, and that doesn't work because the SF2 stuff was not designed to be played this way so a lot of the depth and strategy is gone and things are thrown away and not replaced with anything. You have to design a game from the ground up a certain way, and these games like FS and Rising Thunder didn't do that. They took the framework of other games and slapped on easymode controls and called it a day.

    Also, you can't possibly think that those SG examples are the same as the things I was talking about. The fact that you're talking about an 8 frame command throw being "fast" at all immediately disqualifies the comparison. The concept is similar but the actual implications are worlds apart, we're talking about literal 1 frame command throws, faster than any normal in the game, faster than the majority of supers, and it's a non-meter option that grapplers have all the time without any cooldowns or required activations. You cannot give that tool a Skullgirls input and expect the rest of the game to work the same because it won't. You would have to change the frame data to what Skullgirls did, which is why Skullgirls frame data is that way, but by doing that you are neutering the utility of the move as a punish move, because even a 4 frame command grab is too slow to punish a lot of things in KoF. Which, by the way, those things in KoF are designed that way as a balancing tool so that characters can get away with murder against other characters in the roster but not against grapplers, which is another way they force you to play that matchup differently, you can't run the same mixups and blockstrings and get away with it. So by doing that you've either got to live with the fact that grapplers are just inherently worse or change the other moves so that grapplers can punish them, etc etc etc which is a gigantic domino effect that ripples throughout the entire game.

    This is what I'm talking about. Geese's Raging Storm didn't need to get changed, but they changed it because it is historically one of the most complained about inputs in any fighting game ever. In games post-Fatal Fury, the input interpreters were so lenient that it was never an actual problem doing a Raging Storm, but that was irrelevant because it was notorious. That input too had gameplay implications that could have been designed around and in a way were, for instance Geese could not confirm into Raging Storm from a crouching normal, and only one of his standing normals could be special cancelled and it whiffed on crouching opponents, so if you were crouching Geese could not combo into Raging Storm, he had to make you stand and guess wrong to hit you with a low which altered his offensive strategy. But people complained about it so get rid of it. Compromise only removes the depth the game had originally. If you want to make an easy game you have to make a new game with new depth and a new design. SG was designed to be the way it is, the game works because it had blueprints and a mission statement and was not trying to be anything else outside of references. Compromise does not work.
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  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 37,144 mod
    Except functionally, there isn't anything much different between a qcf and an hcf after a run. Most of us will naturally perform an hcf, or at least start from down+back, to clear the input buffer and avoid DP motions.

    And then there's stuff outside of command throws. For example, why the hell does King's tornado kick need an hcb command? Majority of us can pull it off just as fast as if it were a qcb command. From where I stand, all it does is require a bit of extra finger gymnastics when doing BnBs such as cl.HK, df.HK xx tornado kick, which by the way, also shows that the hcb isn't because they don't want it to be confirmable from lows.
  • doctorfedoradoctorfedora A Road in Kyoto Joined: Posts: 42
    edited November 2016
    So hey uh!

    Speaking as someone who has actually played this game, and a fair bit at that, and who took it to an event at a fighting game bar in Osaka last weekend, here is what has happened with every single person who actually played it in my experience:

    1. They laughed at the still-very-much-in-progress appearance with lots of placeholder stuff
    2. New fighting game players learned the controls in a match or two, while old players "unlearned" command inputs and got used to the special move buttons
    3. Everyone really, really enjoyed playing the game. New players got to experience the meat of the genre (spacing, baiting out punishable moves, etc.) and old players really liked that it felt very SF2, with high-damage combos and quick rounds

    I know the FGC really loves to fall all over itself to see who can shit on everything new the fastest (see: reactions to KOF XIV, which was at a much more complete stage before it was revealed, as well as how the overwhelming attitude toward SF4 being Not As Good As Things Used To Be got transferred immediately to SF5, and now people apparently think SF4 was a good game), but in my own experience actually playing this game and sharing it with others, it is a legitimately really fun game that also happens to still need a lot of polish, because it isn't even in beta state yet.
    Post edited by doctorfedora on
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