Does USF4 Require Too Little Skill?

Max_The_ScrublordMax_The_Scrublord Joined: Posts: 204
After some time with USF4 online, I noticed that while there are definitely good players out there, the game often promotes some rather frustrating behavior. I don't mean to hate on the game, but I personally think the game has a few basic issues. Thoughts?

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  • Sephiroth73003Sephiroth73003 Joined: Posts: 4,222
    After some time with USF4 online, I noticed that while there are definitely good players out there, the game often promotes some rather frustrating behavior. I don't mean to hate on the game, but I personally think the game has a few basic issues. Thoughts?

    This just means you don't know what you are doing. SF4's frustrating aspects are all beatable by doing options selects and learning proper wakeup setups. DP's unless they have comboable ultra's deal so little damage that eating 1 or 2 isn't a big deal given if you get the hit you could probably take 25%+ of their life and get another opportunity to do so compared to the 10-15% you took from eating the DP. Not to mention every reversal is beatable with some type of jump in tactic with almost every character on wakeup.

    I think the only issue with SF4 skill wise is it takes too much skill to make the game not play like scrub fighter 4. That just means though their is a massive skill gap that can exist so the matches a new player plays don't play like a pro player because the scrub isn't implementing the same skills and reactions that force his opponent to play in a more respectful manner. If you mash dp's, back dash constantly (with a character not named Rose), etc and it keeps working the players you are playing against just are not good. There is a massive skill ceiling in USFIV just it is up to you to find it and learn to bust all the things you have an issue with.
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  • Max_The_ScrublordMax_The_Scrublord Joined: Posts: 204
    After some time with USF4 online, I noticed that while there are definitely good players out there, the game often promotes some rather frustrating behavior. I don't mean to hate on the game, but I personally think the game has a few basic issues. Thoughts?

    This just means you don't know what you are doing. SF4's frustrating aspects are all beatable by doing options selects and learning proper wakeup setups. DP's unless they have comboable ultra's deal so little damage that eating 1 or 2 isn't a big deal given if you get the hit you could probably take 25%+ of their life and get another opportunity to do so compared to the 10-15% you took from eating the DP. Not to mention every reversal is beatable with some type of jump in tactic with almost every character on wakeup.

    I think the only issue with SF4 skill wise is it takes too much skill to make the game not play like scrub fighter 4. That just means though their is a massive skill gap that can exist so the matches a new player plays don't play like a pro player because the scrub isn't implementing the same skills and reactions that force his opponent to play in a more respectful manner. If you mash dp's, back dash constantly (with a character not named Rose), etc and it keeps working the players you are playing against just are not good. There is a massive skill ceiling in USFIV just it is up to you to find it and learn to bust all the things you have an issue with.

    That's one thing I noticed, the game can be pretty pathetic at low level, but I think it's really entertaining at tourneys. Thanks for the response, I guess it's just me, I have a more or less bad history of judging a game quickly.

  • Max_The_ScrublordMax_The_Scrublord Joined: Posts: 204
    IglooBob wrote: »
    If it required minimal skill, the top players wouldn't remain the same every year. There's obviously a high skill ceiling and a lot of game knowledge to separate players. If it required too little skill then Joe Blow from Arkansas would win Evo or Capcom Cup.

    Usually when people ask this question what they really mean is "I just lost to someone online who I think makes stupid decisions, did he really deserve to win?"

    I have lost to some pretty bad players, but I think i just have an inability to connect with USF4 like I did with Third Strike or Injustice, so it's probably just me.

  • EveryFlowerFlowEveryFlowerFlow You Want Pain? Aegis Reflector Joined: Posts: 3,778
    I have lost to some pretty bad players, but I think i just have an inability to connect with USF4 like I did with Third Strike or Injustice, so it's probably just me.

    If 3s is your background, this game is going to seem dumb. Lots of 3s players feel the same way about SF4 so You're better off not frustrating yourself and just stick to that. SFV is round the corner anyway and plays more faithful to what you probably know already.
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  • Max_The_ScrublordMax_The_Scrublord Joined: Posts: 204
    I have lost to some pretty bad players, but I think i just have an inability to connect with USF4 like I did with Third Strike or Injustice, so it's probably just me.

    If 3s is your background, this game is going to seem dumb. Lots of 3s players feel the same way about SF4 so You're better off not frustrating yourself and just stick to that. SFV is round the corner anyway and plays more faithful to what you probably know already.

    That's what a lot of 3S fans are saying, and I think it's true. SFV seems to have a bit more of an emphasis on fundamentals, USF4 just feels a bit odd at times. One thing I struggle with consistently is getting in on my opponent. I generally play rushdown or an out of the blue character like Q or Necro, but in USF4 I just don't know how to keep pressure on my opponent. I've had frustrating matches against runaway strats that I don't know how to beat like I do in 3S.

  • el_Principeel_Principe EL CHAPO Jr. Joined: Posts: 135
    It does require much less skill than any fighter I've ever played. Most people are too scared to admit that, as if they'll be punished for telling the truth or something...

    But in the end, the most skilled players still come out on top.
  • Max_The_ScrublordMax_The_Scrublord Joined: Posts: 204
    It does require much less skill than any fighter I've ever played. Most people are too scared to admit that, as if they'll be punished for telling the truth or something...

    But in the end, the most skilled players still come out on top.
    In my opinion the game does lower the skill barrier by a lot, and I'd be fine with that, for example NRS games are very simple, but I appreciate that they get people into fighting games, but USF4 takes simplicity to a degree where players can be translucent in terms of strategy but still win. Like I said earlier, this could all be in my head, but that's what makes it my opinion I guess.

  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    edited December 2015
    SF4 has a weird jump in skill requirements around mid level. Lowest level you can get away with really dumb stuff even more than other games because some lucky things lead to big reward like wake up ultra which is easier to get than a wake up super. So low skill players can hang with low~mid skill players because most mid skill players haven't adapted yet to the high skill stuff where the game gets really deep and requires a lot of understanding of the mechanics of the game as well as player tendencies and yes, even solid fundamentals.

    But execution for a lot of bnb combos or get in / break open players who aren't the lowest skill mashers takes a lot of skill. Many chars BASIC combos require 1F links, even the ones that don't you often have a lot more character specific, range specific and standing vs crouching combos. There is a lot of requirement for manipulating the deeper mechanical aspects of the game via option selects, OSes to counter other OSes, and mind games.

    SF4 doesn't require "too little skill" it requires "different skills" and some things that should be easy are hard while some things that should be hard are easy.
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  • WombleWomble Joined: Posts: 632
    Execution wise, usf4 is definitely harder and from a matchup point of view you've got alot more matchups to learn due to the larger character roster. As a 3s player though, I recognize that 3s is certainly more abstract. Ultimately they require very different skill sets.
  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    edited December 2015
    Womble wrote: »
    Execution wise, usf4 is definitely harder and from a matchup point of view you've got alot more matchups to learn due to the larger character roster. As a 3s player though, I recognize that 3s is certainly more abstract. Ultimately they require very different skill sets.

    I feel like beyond just sheer numbers the different quirks of each match up are also higher for things that actually come up in matches (not just combo video fluff), but that could be inexperience with 3S. Not to say 3S doesn't have them, I just feel that they come up more often in SF4, mostly due to the way hurt boxes in SF4 work mechanically.
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  • Max_The_ScrublordMax_The_Scrublord Joined: Posts: 204
    Womble wrote: »
    Execution wise, usf4 is definitely harder and from a matchup point of view you've got alot more matchups to learn due to the larger character roster. As a 3s player though, I recognize that 3s is certainly more abstract. Ultimately they require very different skill sets.
    I think my issue with USF4 is that while the game itself is just fine, there are small things here and there that add up to some obnoxious fights. For example, you can do a long, difficult 1 frame link combo, only to be met with a wake up Ultra. Things like that turned me off to the game because in Third Strike yes there are big damage opportunities, but not the degree of this game. In Third Strike there's such a focus on fundamentals it's hard to be foiled by one single decision.

    Eternal wrote: »
    SF4 has a weird jump in skill requirements around mid level. Lowest level you can get away with really dumb stuff even more than other games because some lucky things lead to big reward like wake up ultra which is easier to get than a wake up super. So low skill players can hang with low~mid skill players because most mid skill players haven't adapted yet to the high skill stuff where the game gets really deep and requires a lot of understanding of the mechanics of the game as well as player tendencies and yes, even solid fundamentals.

    But execution for a lot of bnb combos or get in / break open players who aren't the lowest skill mashers takes a lot of skill. Many chars BASIC combos require 1F links, even the ones that don't you often have a lot more character specific, range specific and standing vs crouching combos. There is a lot of requirement for manipulating the deeper mechanical aspects of the game via option selects, OSes to counter other OSes, and mind games.

    SF4 doesn't require "too little skill" it requires "different skills" and some things that should be easy are hard while some things that should be hard are easy.

    Thanks for the in-depth response, I agree. The game is very entertaining at high level, but I've had fights that could only be described as sad online. What throws me off is exactly what you said: The game seems to have things in reverse. You can get massive damage for a few wake-ups or a counter-hit focus crumple, but to do a bnb combo takes much more effort. Like I said, the game itself is actually pretty neat, but how people play it is what tends to throw me off.

  • WombleWomble Joined: Posts: 632
    edited December 2015
    Eternal wrote: »
    Womble wrote: »
    Execution wise, usf4 is definitely harder and from a matchup point of view you've got alot more matchups to learn due to the larger character roster. As a 3s player though, I recognize that 3s is certainly more abstract. Ultimately they require very different skill sets.

    I feel like beyond just sheer numbers the different quirks of each match up are also higher for things that actually come up in matches (not just combo video fluff), but that could be inexperience with 3S.
    You're right
    Womble wrote: »
    Execution wise, usf4 is definitely harder and from a matchup point of view you've got alot more matchups to learn due to the larger character roster. As a 3s player though, I recognize that 3s is certainly more abstract. Ultimately they require very different skill sets.
    I think my issue with USF4 is that while the game itself is just fine, there are small things here and there that add up to some obnoxious fights. For example, you can do a long, difficult 1 frame link combo, only to be met with a wake up Ultra. Things like that turned me off to the game because in Third Strike yes there are big damage opportunities, but not the degree of this game. In Third Strike there's such a focus on fundamentals it's hard to be foiled by one single decision.
    The same thing can and does happen in 3s. Most mid/high tier character and even some low tier characters can decimate you from just a single guess. They might not kill outright but 1 mixup (which can often be far more cheesy) and you could quite conceivably be done.

  • Max_The_ScrublordMax_The_Scrublord Joined: Posts: 204
    Womble wrote: »
    Eternal wrote: »
    Womble wrote: »
    Execution wise, usf4 is definitely harder and from a matchup point of view you've got alot more matchups to learn due to the larger character roster. As a 3s player though, I recognize that 3s is certainly more abstract. Ultimately they require very different skill sets.

    I feel like beyond just sheer numbers the different quirks of each match up are also higher for things that actually come up in matches (not just combo video fluff), but that could be inexperience with 3S.
    You're right
    Womble wrote: »
    Execution wise, usf4 is definitely harder and from a matchup point of view you've got alot more matchups to learn due to the larger character roster. As a 3s player though, I recognize that 3s is certainly more abstract. Ultimately they require very different skill sets.
    I think my issue with USF4 is that while the game itself is just fine, there are small things here and there that add up to some obnoxious fights. For example, you can do a long, difficult 1 frame link combo, only to be met with a wake up Ultra. Things like that turned me off to the game because in Third Strike yes there are big damage opportunities, but not the degree of this game. In Third Strike there's such a focus on fundamentals it's hard to be foiled by one single decision.
    The same thing can and does happen in 3s. Most mid/high tier character and even some low tier characters can decimate you from just a single guess. They might not kill outright but 1 mixup (which can often be far more cheesy) and you could quite conceivably be done.

    Well, yeah, I mean every fighting game can have cheesy stuff happen, but what I mean is that it's a bit less prominent in Third Strike. Well, that could just be some personal bias, but nonetheless, I can put up with the cheese in Third Strike (Genei-Jin, Aegis Reflector, Demon Flip mix-ups) because it just doesn't feel like it's as big of a factor in Third Strike as it does in USF4. Thanks for the thoughtful responses.

  • WombleWomble Joined: Posts: 632
    [Well, yeah, I mean every fighting game can have cheesy stuff happen, but what I mean is that it's a bit less prominent in Third Strike. Well, that could just be some personal bias, but nonetheless, I can put up with the cheese in Third Strike (Genei-Jin, Aegis Reflector, Demon Flip mix-ups) because it just doesn't feel like it's as big of a factor in Third Strike as it does in USF4. Thanks for the thoughtful responses.
    If you prefer 3s cheese, fair enough, but I can't even count how many matches I've seen won with some ridiculously ambiguous post super mixup and that's not to say I don't love 3s, I do, but the game can be very cheap at time.
  • Max_The_ScrublordMax_The_Scrublord Joined: Posts: 204
    Womble wrote: »
    [Well, yeah, I mean every fighting game can have cheesy stuff happen, but what I mean is that it's a bit less prominent in Third Strike. Well, that could just be some personal bias, but nonetheless, I can put up with the cheese in Third Strike (Genei-Jin, Aegis Reflector, Demon Flip mix-ups) because it just doesn't feel like it's as big of a factor in Third Strike as it does in USF4. Thanks for the thoughtful responses.
    If you prefer 3s cheese, fair enough, but I can't even count how many matches I've seen won with some ridiculously ambiguous post super mixup and that's not to say I don't love 3s, I do, but the game can be very cheap at time.

    Don't worry, I see your point entirely. I just prefer 3S 's brand of cheese, it just doesn't bother me in the same way USF4 does. USF4 just comes off as a bit gimmicky at times, and while the same can be said for 3S, I have a bit more tolerance for 3S because it has an otherwise strong focus on fundamentals. For example, Genei-Jin can be very cheap, but I feel enough effort has to be put in to where I'm not salty, but in USF4 I get really annoyed at beyond simple strats being very successful.

  • IglooBobIglooBob Bob the builder Joined: Posts: 4,023
    I also enjoy 3s the most of any fighting game. I think it's important when playing a new game to completely wash yourself of all assumptions carried over. so whatever you think is smart or stupid in 3s, may not be the same in SF4. rather than say "that wouldn't work in 3s so it is stupid" try and think about it strictly from a risk vs reward perspective and that'll allow you to make better decisions.

    of course, if it turns out you would just rather play 3s than SF4, that's okay too. :)
  • Max_The_ScrublordMax_The_Scrublord Joined: Posts: 204
    edited December 2015
    IglooBob wrote: »
    I also enjoy 3s the most of any fighting game. I think it's important when playing a new game to completely wash yourself of all assumptions carried over. so whatever you think is smart or stupid in 3s, may not be the same in SF4. rather than say "that wouldn't work in 3s so it is stupid" try and think about it strictly from a risk vs reward perspective and that'll allow you to make better decisions.

    of course, if it turns out you would just rather play 3s than SF4, that's okay too. :)


    Hey thanks for the incredibly nice response, there were a million mean ways to explain that. Anyways, I think I still like USF4, but there are things here and there that hold me back from liking it as much as 3S. Part of my reasoning has been exactly what you said, "Well, that isn't a 3S type decision so I hate it", but I've kind of realized "Wait, what does that matter? This is USF4." Saying that is like saying, "Well, that doesn't work in Tekken 6 so it's automatically dumb for Tekken 7." I guess the whole reason I started this thread was less about problems with USF4 and more about USF4 not being like 3S. Thanks! :)

  • Digital-Digital- TRVP LORD Joined: Posts: 2,216
    I got beat in USF4 online by a ken that just jump forward + HK then sweep (over and over again). yeah it can be retarded at times.
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  • GreenwoodGreenwood Earth, the only true God Joined: Posts: 802
    Digital- wrote: »
    I got beat in USF4 online by a ken that just jump forward + HK then sweep (over and over again). yeah it can be retarded at times.

    Can't you do that in nearly every game?
  • Max_The_ScrublordMax_The_Scrublord Joined: Posts: 204
    Digital- wrote: »
    I got beat in USF4 online by a ken that just jump forward + HK then sweep (over and over again). yeah it can be retarded at times.

    I once got beat by a Dictator who would just run away, charge scissor kicks, run away, charge scissor kicks, etc. The game is very frustrating when fighting low level players, but in response to what BurnYourEgo said:
    Digital- wrote: »
    I got beat in USF4 online by a ken that just jump forward + HK then sweep (over and over again). yeah it can be retarded at times.

    I don't see that as a flaw with the game.

    This is true, the game itself is quite functional, but the habits promoted online are generally pretty obnoxious, so my problem is less with the game and more with how people play it. Just like Greenwood said:
    Greenwood wrote: »
    Digital- wrote: »
    I got beat in USF4 online by a ken that just jump forward + HK then sweep (over and over again). yeah it can be retarded at times.

    Can't you do that in nearly every game?

    Pretty much every game has some cheese, but USF4 has a brand of cheese I find difficult to put up with.


  • GreenwoodGreenwood Earth, the only true God Joined: Posts: 802
    Pretty much every game has some cheese, but USF4 has a brand of cheese I find difficult to put up with.
    I meant j. HK > sweep specifically, but I get what you mean.
  • Max_The_ScrublordMax_The_Scrublord Joined: Posts: 204
    Greenwood wrote: »
    Pretty much every game has some cheese, but USF4 has a brand of cheese I find difficult to put up with.
    I meant j. HK > sweep specifically, but I get what you mean.

    Lol noobs seem to have a strange obsession with sweeps. Why? It's like they think a singular, slow hit is more effective than an actual poke or a fast mid-range normal. Thanks for the response though. :)

  • Digital-Digital- TRVP LORD Joined: Posts: 2,216
    Greenwood wrote: »
    Pretty much every game has some cheese, but USF4 has a brand of cheese I find difficult to put up with.
    I meant j. HK > sweep specifically, but I get what you mean.

    with how stupid ambiguous cross ups are in this game i don't think it works as well in other games.. especially when there is wifi involved.
    I got a job with the mob making G's, doing some pick-ups, deliveries and transporting keys.
  • Max_The_ScrublordMax_The_Scrublord Joined: Posts: 204
    Digital- wrote: »
    Greenwood wrote: »
    Pretty much every game has some cheese, but USF4 has a brand of cheese I find difficult to put up with.
    I meant j. HK > sweep specifically, but I get what you mean.

    with how stupid ambiguous cross ups are in this game i don't think it works as well in other games.. especially when there is wifi involved.

    Well, that's what I mean. Just like this game has dumb cross ups, 3S and other fighting games have their own kinds of b.s., USF4 just bothers me more. I see your point though.

  • Digital-Digital- TRVP LORD Joined: Posts: 2,216
    I agree with ya 100%... I wish there was a way to force higher skill out of online but its just terrible. It sucks, I get on and just rage the whole time cause of how bad the matches I play always are. Kinda wish I had an offline scene near me but I'm stuck with the tourture of online.
    I got a job with the mob making G's, doing some pick-ups, deliveries and transporting keys.
  • Max_The_ScrublordMax_The_Scrublord Joined: Posts: 204
    Digital- wrote: »
    I agree with ya 100%... I wish there was a way to force higher skill out of online but its just terrible. It sucks, I get on and just rage the whole time cause of how bad the matches I play always are. Kinda wish I had an offline scene near me but I'm stuck with the tourture of online.

    Honestly I feel a STRONG distaste for USF4, but the game is pretty much universally accepted among SF fans, so I've been more or less holding back on what I have to say about it. Also, I'm not saying Evil Ryu is a fair character, but isn't calling someone low IQ a Low Tier God thing? I agree the character has tons of bs, but I don't really call people low IQ over it. I don't mean to start an argument, I might just be reading too deep into things like usual.

  • PerthoPertho The Runed One Joined: Posts: 20,908 mod
    It definitely requires more skill to play than it does to make terrible threads.
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    jimmy1200 wrote: »
    pertho attacked me first, saying i get all my life tips from 106th and park.
  • Max_The_ScrublordMax_The_Scrublord Joined: Posts: 204
    Pertho wrote: »
    It definitely requires more skill to play than it does to make terrible threads.

    Fair enough.

  • Plaid_UnicornPlaid_Unicorn Joined: Posts: 8,297
    Digital- wrote: »
    I agree with ya 100%... I wish there was a way to force higher skill out of online but its just terrible. It sucks, I get on and just rage the whole time cause of how bad the matches I play always are. Kinda wish I had an offline scene near me but I'm stuck with the tourture of online.

    Honestly I feel a STRONG distaste for USF4, but the game is pretty much universally accepted among SF fans, so I've been more or less holding back on what I have to say about it. Also, I'm not saying Evil Ryu is a fair character, but isn't calling someone low IQ a Low Tier God thing? I agree the character has tons of bs, but I don't really call people low IQ over it. I don't mean to start an argument, I might just be reading too deep into things like usual.

    There are a ton of people who don't like it (at least on this site) however I think you are wrong with how much skill it takes. I'm not the biggest fan of 4 but when your BnB and combos that are mandatory to stay competitive are 1 frame links that require FADC at certain points in the combo, it already surpasses the dexterity needed in older SF games. Is dex skill? to some it is, some say no but you can't deny the tech involved to even play at a moderately decent level.
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  • Max_The_ScrublordMax_The_Scrublord Joined: Posts: 204
    Digital- wrote: »
    I agree with ya 100%... I wish there was a way to force higher skill out of online but its just terrible. It sucks, I get on and just rage the whole time cause of how bad the matches I play always are. Kinda wish I had an offline scene near me but I'm stuck with the tourture of online.

    Honestly I feel a STRONG distaste for USF4, but the game is pretty much universally accepted among SF fans, so I've been more or less holding back on what I have to say about it. Also, I'm not saying Evil Ryu is a fair character, but isn't calling someone low IQ a Low Tier God thing? I agree the character has tons of bs, but I don't really call people low IQ over it. I don't mean to start an argument, I might just be reading too deep into things like usual.

    There are a ton of people who don't like it (at least on this site) however I think you are wrong with how much skill it takes. I'm not the biggest fan of 4 but when your BnB and combos that are mandatory to stay competitive are 1 frame links that require FADC at certain points in the combo, it already surpasses the dexterity needed in older SF games. Is dex skill? to some it is, some say no but you can't deny the tech involved to even play at a moderately decent level.

    I definitely agree the game takes skill at a mid to high level, but the game has some elements here and there that prevent me from liking it as much as I want to. I'm not trying to hate on 4, and I totally see your point, but there are parts of I simply find difficult to put up with. Thanks for the detailed response though. :)

  • Sephiroth73003Sephiroth73003 Joined: Posts: 4,222
    I definitely agree the game takes skill at a mid to high level, but the game has some elements here and there that prevent me from liking it as much as I want to. I'm not trying to hate on 4, and I totally see your point, but there are parts of I simply find difficult to put up with. Thanks for the detailed response though. :)

    If you try to play a fighitng game how you want to play it over playing the actual game you are given you will always hit a premature ceiling when playing the game. Every fighting game has its quirks and risk-reward scenarios that are awkward and the only thing you can do is embrace them. This is true in every version of SF including 3S. Getting hit by something like wakeup ultra is always the mistake of the aggressor given how easy they all are to evade. In 3S you have to mixup how you attack because of parry which leads into a raw combo if they guess right and they can OS a parry throw break, that is infinitely more variability that your opponent could blow up your offense then simply doing a safe jump in IV or doing a true blockstring then step to your optimal range then throw out a poke your opponent has to psychic DP.

    Again though a lot of people on Shoryuken dislike SFIV, but the majority of them spout stuff that hasn't been true since vanilla as justification or never bothered to learn the options of the game. There are many matchups in SFIV that are as offensive if not more offensive then 3S. The cast being so much bigger just gives a huge variation in how each match plays. There is a reason at high level against 80% of the cast everyone rushes the opponent down whenever given the opportunity or plays a very active footsie battle. Footsies are also imo more dynamic than 3S in almost all matches which is something I personally find enjoyable and that is from someone who started in 3S.
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  • Max_The_ScrublordMax_The_Scrublord Joined: Posts: 204
    I definitely agree the game takes skill at a mid to high level, but the game has some elements here and there that prevent me from liking it as much as I want to. I'm not trying to hate on 4, and I totally see your point, but there are parts of I simply find difficult to put up with. Thanks for the detailed response though. :)

    If you try to play a fighitng game how you want to play it over playing the actual game you are given you will always hit a premature ceiling when playing the game. Every fighting game has its quirks and risk-reward scenarios that are awkward and the only thing you can do is embrace them. This is true in every version of SF including 3S. Getting hit by something like wakeup ultra is always the mistake of the aggressor given how easy they all are to evade. In 3S you have to mixup how you attack because of parry which leads into a raw combo if they guess right and they can OS a parry throw break, that is infinitely more variability that your opponent could blow up your offense then simply doing a safe jump in IV or doing a true blockstring then step to your optimal range then throw out a poke your opponent has to psychic DP.

    Again though a lot of people on Shoryuken dislike SFIV, but the majority of them spout stuff that hasn't been true since vanilla as justification or never bothered to learn the options of the game. There are many matchups in SFIV that are as offensive if not more offensive then 3S. The cast being so much bigger just gives a huge variation in how each match plays. There is a reason at high level against 80% of the cast everyone rushes the opponent down whenever given the opportunity or plays a very active footsie battle. Footsies are also imo more dynamic than 3S in almost all matches which is something I personally find enjoyable and that is from someone who started in 3S.

    Well... that's actually a really good point. I've been focusing less on how USF4 isn't like 3S rather than focusing on what USF4 actually is. Thanks for the new perspective on the matter. :)

  • Digital-Digital- TRVP LORD Joined: Posts: 2,216
    Digital- wrote: »
    I agree with ya 100%... I wish there was a way to force higher skill out of online but its just terrible. It sucks, I get on and just rage the whole time cause of how bad the matches I play always are. Kinda wish I had an offline scene near me but I'm stuck with the tourture of online.

    Honestly I feel a STRONG distaste for USF4, but the game is pretty much universally accepted among SF fans, so I've been more or less holding back on what I have to say about it. Also, I'm not saying Evil Ryu is a fair character, but isn't calling someone low IQ a Low Tier God thing? I agree the character has tons of bs, but I don't really call people low IQ over it. I don't mean to start an argument, I might just be reading too deep into things like usual.

    There are a ton of people who don't like it (at least on this site) however I think you are wrong with how much skill it takes. I'm not the biggest fan of 4 but when your BnB and combos that are mandatory to stay competitive are 1 frame links that require FADC at certain points in the combo, it already surpasses the dexterity needed in older SF games. Is dex skill? to some it is, some say no but you can't deny the tech involved to even play at a moderately decent level.

    Maybe the problem is not that it takes no skill, but that its harder to get to that level. Execution, Matchup Knowledge, Tech, Os and all the stuff needed to be good in this game seems alot more dificult than most other fighting games Ive played in the past (havent played Guilty Gear or any other anime fighter so cant talk about those).
    I got a job with the mob making G's, doing some pick-ups, deliveries and transporting keys.
  • Max_The_ScrublordMax_The_Scrublord Joined: Posts: 204
    Digital- wrote: »
    Digital- wrote: »
    I agree with ya 100%... I wish there was a way to force higher skill out of online but its just terrible. It sucks, I get on and just rage the whole time cause of how bad the matches I play always are. Kinda wish I had an offline scene near me but I'm stuck with the tourture of online.

    Honestly I feel a STRONG distaste for USF4, but the game is pretty much universally accepted among SF fans, so I've been more or less holding back on what I have to say about it. Also, I'm not saying Evil Ryu is a fair character, but isn't calling someone low IQ a Low Tier God thing? I agree the character has tons of bs, but I don't really call people low IQ over it. I don't mean to start an argument, I might just be reading too deep into things like usual.

    There are a ton of people who don't like it (at least on this site) however I think you are wrong with how much skill it takes. I'm not the biggest fan of 4 but when your BnB and combos that are mandatory to stay competitive are 1 frame links that require FADC at certain points in the combo, it already surpasses the dexterity needed in older SF games. Is dex skill? to some it is, some say no but you can't deny the tech involved to even play at a moderately decent level.

    Maybe the problem is not that it takes no skill, but that its harder to get to that level. Execution, Matchup Knowledge, Tech, Os and all the stuff needed to be good in this game seems alot more dificult than most other fighting games Ive played in the past (havent played Guilty Gear or any other anime fighter so cant talk about those).

    Actually that's also a really good point. Maybe it's the other way around, I mean way earlier in the thread Sephiroth said you have to work hard to make it NOT be Scrub Fighter 4, so I definitely see what you're saying.

  • EasilynEasilyn Inactive. Joined: Posts: 1,405
    Ultra is not 2 or 3. That's a good and bad thing basically. It's own game, but it's own game, with issues.
    Like all other games.
    Doa 5: Random Select.
    Ultra: Makoto/dudley/hugo/Oni/Cody/Guy/Honda/Poison.
    Mvc2: Random Select.
    Sf5: All the odd ones, no main
  • Max_The_ScrublordMax_The_Scrublord Joined: Posts: 204
    Easilyn wrote: »
    Ultra is not 2 or 3. That's a good and bad thing basically. It's own game, but it's own game, with issues.
    Like all other games.

    As this thread developed I've realized that, but thanks for the response anyways. :)

  • NorieagaNorieaga FADC x ROFLCOPTER Joined: Posts: 4,196
    You're more likely to lose to crazy shit in SF4 than any other SF, IMO. Random mashing, random focus of a slow poke, random ultra - all these factors can come into play in an instant. Then you have some characters who have stupid hitboxes and also stupid setups.

    The game requires a lot of skill to be played at a high level, you can just get a lot of mileage from playing like a complete idiot sometimes (see: all the shitty players wrecking house online but not having even basic fundamentals down).
  • Max_The_ScrublordMax_The_Scrublord Joined: Posts: 204
    Norieaga wrote: »
    You're more likely to lose to crazy shit in SF4 than any other SF, IMO. Random mashing, random focus of a slow poke, random ultra - all these factors can come into play in an instant. Then you have some characters who have stupid hitboxes and also stupid setups.

    The game requires a lot of skill to be played at a high level, you can just get a lot of mileage from playing like a complete idiot sometimes (see: all the shitty players wrecking house online but not having even basic fundamentals down).

    I agree it's great at high level, but it's irritating to me at low level and sometimes even mid level.

  • EasilynEasilyn Inactive. Joined: Posts: 1,405
    They keep casuals in the game because you can really do some stupid shit and still give a pro a hard time, which I think is funny tbh.
    Ultra is a fine game, storm is broken. If casual games weren't that horribly made in the gameplay department...
    Doa 5: Random Select.
    Ultra: Makoto/dudley/hugo/Oni/Cody/Guy/Honda/Poison.
    Mvc2: Random Select.
    Sf5: All the odd ones, no main
  • Max_The_ScrublordMax_The_Scrublord Joined: Posts: 204
    Easilyn wrote: »
    They keep casuals in the game because you can really do some stupid shit and still give a pro a hard time, which I think is funny tbh.
    Ultra is a fine game, storm is broken. If casual games weren't that horribly made in the gameplay department...

    I see what you're saying, there are lots of players who can get by off of dumb stuff and it can get quite annoying.

  • Dan_The_ManDan_The_Man FGC Hipster Joined: Posts: 65
    If you prefer 3s you've essentially addressed your own concerns. SF4 gives people better options for defense, focus jank, and easier gameplay overall honestly. It's a different and IMO inferior game but it's what got me and a lot of others into the FGC. At this point I'd say just stick with 3s or get decent at ST because many of the habits you'll form in 4 may hurt you in 5.
    #KeepDreaming
  • Max_The_ScrublordMax_The_Scrublord Joined: Posts: 204
    If you prefer 3s you've essentially addressed your own concerns. SF4 gives people better options for defense, focus jank, and easier gameplay overall honestly. It's a different and IMO inferior game but it's what got me and a lot of others into the FGC. At this point I'd say just stick with 3s or get decent at ST because many of the habits you'll form in 4 may hurt you in 5.

    I do appreciate that it got me into Street Fighter, especially Third Strike, but there are a lot of things that bother me. I see why people like it, as it does simplify a lot of things. Sadly I can't join in on the SFV fun, don't have a PS4 or a good PC. By the way, are there still people online or at tournaments for Super Turbo? Online I found no one, and I don't see a lot of tournament videos.

  • EternalEternal unpleasable perfectionist Joined: Posts: 12,436
    edited December 2015
    If you prefer 3s you've essentially addressed your own concerns. SF4 gives people better options for defense, focus jank, and easier gameplay overall honestly. It's a different and IMO inferior game but it's what got me and a lot of others into the FGC. At this point I'd say just stick with 3s or get decent at ST because many of the habits you'll form in 4 may hurt you in 5.

    I do appreciate that it got me into Street Fighter, especially Third Strike, but there are a lot of things that bother me. I see why people like it, as it does simplify a lot of things. Sadly I can't join in on the SFV fun, don't have a PS4 or a good PC. By the way, are there still people online or at tournaments for Super Turbo? Online I found no one, and I don't see a lot of tournament videos.

    There is definitely a tournament scene but you need to seek it out. Look up STRevival. There is also fightcade and GGPO for online. You'll find mostly the same group of people but it's a decent size. Japan regularly has A-cho stuff, nothing the size of their A3 stuff which is probably their most popular and largest scene of retro titles.

    EVO2015 had an ST side tournament. There was a large tournament in japan not long ago (X-Mania) http://shoryuken.com/2015/09/23/james-chen-provides-english-commentary-for-x-mania-xvis-classic-super-turbo-competition/





    I've seen A LOT of people, even those who don't play ST, say that the Tournament of legends was the best part of evo 2012



    I think this thread has kind of run it's course TBH.
    http://ink-gaming.com/ono/doku.php The new home of the Ono Tool official wiki.
  • Max_The_ScrublordMax_The_Scrublord Joined: Posts: 204
    Eternal wrote: »
    If you prefer 3s you've essentially addressed your own concerns. SF4 gives people better options for defense, focus jank, and easier gameplay overall honestly. It's a different and IMO inferior game but it's what got me and a lot of others into the FGC. At this point I'd say just stick with 3s or get decent at ST because many of the habits you'll form in 4 may hurt you in 5.

    I do appreciate that it got me into Street Fighter, especially Third Strike, but there are a lot of things that bother me. I see why people like it, as it does simplify a lot of things. Sadly I can't join in on the SFV fun, don't have a PS4 or a good PC. By the way, are there still people online or at tournaments for Super Turbo? Online I found no one, and I don't see a lot of tournament videos.

    There is definitely a tournament scene but you need to seek it out. Look up STRevival. There is also fightcade and GGPO for online. You'll find mostly the same group of people but it's a decent size. Japan regularly has A-cho stuff, nothing the size of their A3 stuff which is probably their most popular and largest scene of retro titles.

    EVO2015 had an ST side tournament. There was a large tournament in japan not long ago (X-Mania) http://shoryuken.com/2015/09/23/james-chen-provides-english-commentary-for-x-mania-xvis-classic-super-turbo-competition/





    I've seen A LOT of people, even those who don't play ST, say that the Tournament of legends was the best part of evo 2012



    I think this thread has kind of run it's course TBH.

    Yeah I think it's pretty much over. Thanks for the great responses though!

  • IglooBobIglooBob Bob the builder Joined: Posts: 4,023
    ST and 3s are still reasonably strong in America, Japan, and Western Europe. If you enjoy either of those games, you can find strong competition online and pretty solid events offline. In addition to the ST stuff Eternal posted, American 3s has Fight Club, European 3s has Gutter Trash, and Japanese 3s constantly has tournaments and the game is especially active there. If you're interested in footage on youtube, TheShend is great for Japan, sf3lp is great for American tournies, and Deemo-Kun is great for the European stuff.
  • Dan_The_ManDan_The_Man FGC Hipster Joined: Posts: 65
    If you prefer 3s you've essentially addressed your own concerns. SF4 gives people better options for defense, focus jank, and easier gameplay overall honestly. It's a different and IMO inferior game but it's what got me and a lot of others into the FGC. At this point I'd say just stick with 3s or get decent at ST because many of the habits you'll form in 4 may hurt you in 5.

    I do appreciate that it got me into Street Fighter, especially Third Strike, but there are a lot of things that bother me. I see why people like it, as it does simplify a lot of things. Sadly I can't join in on the SFV fun, don't have a PS4 or a good PC. By the way, are there still people online or at tournaments for Super Turbo? Online I found no one, and I don't see a lot of tournament videos.

    Fightcade is where it's at for any of the classic fighters. STrevival has great resources for learning ST and even a training mode and scenario program.
    #KeepDreaming
  • Max_The_ScrublordMax_The_Scrublord Joined: Posts: 204
    If you prefer 3s you've essentially addressed your own concerns. SF4 gives people better options for defense, focus jank, and easier gameplay overall honestly. It's a different and IMO inferior game but it's what got me and a lot of others into the FGC. At this point I'd say just stick with 3s or get decent at ST because many of the habits you'll form in 4 may hurt you in 5.

    I do appreciate that it got me into Street Fighter, especially Third Strike, but there are a lot of things that bother me. I see why people like it, as it does simplify a lot of things. Sadly I can't join in on the SFV fun, don't have a PS4 or a good PC. By the way, are there still people online or at tournaments for Super Turbo? Online I found no one, and I don't see a lot of tournament videos.

    Fightcade is where it's at for any of the classic fighters. STrevival has great resources for learning ST and even a training mode and scenario program.

    I know about Fightcade, but my PC is absolute garbage, it can barely access Google Chrome. Is there any way I can play it on a console?

  • NaerasNaeras Terribad Joined: Posts: 2,849
    I know about Fightcade, but my PC is absolute garbage, it can barely access Google Chrome. Is there any way I can play it on a console?
    If you can run a web browser on your computer, you can probably run fightcade.

    Otherwise, HDR is available on consoles, but I'm unsure if there's still a playerbase there.
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