CvS2 Team Composition Spreadsheet

TheMuffinManTheMuffinMan 「満」 「寸」 「越」Joined: Posts: 506 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
Hola!

I enjoy making stuff in Excel cause I'm crazy like that, so I decided to do a spreadsheet that gives you stats and ratings for your CvS2 team composition. It doesn't account for single or double-character compositions, but I'm satisfied with where it is at this point. It's not perfect, and the information is based on my experience and stuff I've talked about with BAS, so veterans may not gain anything from it.

Either way, it's just something I made to reteach myself stuff I used to do in Excel for work. On a side note, macros must be enabled for the buttons to work, so sorry in advance for anyone turned off by that or restricted from enabling them.

Have fun!

Capcom vs. SNK 2 Team Composition
"That you float along in the ocean and live a life of peace does not come from your own resourcefulness." - Demon's Sermon on Martial Arts

Comments

  • Great_Dark_HeroGreat_Dark_Hero Come hither! Punishment awaits! Joined: Posts: 2,790
    Yep. Even back when I was beginning, I had a Sagat.
    If anything, at least learn Sagat.
    (Other top tiers include Blanka... in pretty much every groove according to SRK wiki. Then there is A-Sakura and Bison himself).
    Everything else (mid-tier and above unless you are managing something on K Groove) is fair game.
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  • Jion_WansuJion_Wansu Joined: Posts: 5,566
    I like K-Groove Honda(1), Dictator(1), Dictator(2)
  • TrickfingerTrickfinger Joined: Posts: 8
    Wow, did not expect to see something like this in 2016. Good shit dude.
  • NickRocksNickRocks SATSUI NO SABU Joined: Posts: 22,508
    @SNAAAAKE b b but i wanna play rugal geese and ken :(
    King of the Post-09ers
    Last of the Prembers, R.I.P. my nibbas
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  • Mr. WarzardMr. Warzard CvS2 Commissioner Gordon Joined: Posts: 779
    That team isn't terrible in N or K groove. P to a lesser extent. Just be prepared to lose to a lot of sagats early on.
    Holding a shovel over SF4's grave.
    CVS2: The Nine Ball of Fighting Games
    Apoc was right: http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/comment/556915/#Comment_556915
  • SNAAAAKESNAAAAKE WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!? Joined: Posts: 13,072 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    good team in kgroove..

    R2 ken is solid
    you must defeat my Shen Long to receive the reward

  • NickRocksNickRocks SATSUI NO SABU Joined: Posts: 22,508
    sweet!
    King of the Post-09ers
    Last of the Prembers, R.I.P. my nibbas
    Maximilian is a racist thief
    https://clips.twitch.tv/maximilian_dood/DifferentBeeHeyGuys
  • OuroborusOuroborus plays 3s just to troll Joined: Posts: 7,181 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    that team is super legit in C groove.
    ssf4ae tier list regarding Gen:

    D Proto: and where is Gen?
    oORYUOo: you cannot tier what you cannot see
  • Mr. WarzardMr. Warzard CvS2 Commissioner Gordon Joined: Posts: 779
    I thought about C groove too, but nixed it because C is one of Geese's worst grooves (probably the worst non-S groove). He has more bad matchups in C than other grooves, due to how hard it is for him to get in and stay in without run/low jump, and how generally useless level 1/2 supers are for him. If the team had pretty much anyone better than Geese (remember Naps using those two with Rolento?), C would probably be the best pick.

    Also, I think the spreadsheet (as great of a tool as it is, perfect for people just starting the game) underrates Ken badly.
    Holding a shovel over SF4's grave.
    CVS2: The Nine Ball of Fighting Games
    Apoc was right: http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/comment/556915/#Comment_556915
  • hashratehashrate Joined: Posts: 150
    Wow, did not expect to see something like this in 2016. Good shit dude.

    This, i also love seeing current updates for old games. Keep CvS alive!!! best crossover ever!
  • TheMuffinManTheMuffinMan 「満」 「寸」 「越」 Joined: Posts: 506 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    I thought about C groove too, but nixed it because C is one of Geese's worst grooves (probably the worst non-S groove). He has more bad matchups in C than other grooves, due to how hard it is for him to get in and stay in without run/low jump, and how generally useless level 1/2 supers are for him. If the team had pretty much anyone better than Geese (remember Naps using those two with Rolento?), C would probably be the best pick.

    Also, I think the spreadsheet (as great of a tool as it is, perfect for people just starting the game) underrates Ken badly.

    Yo! What up, Warzard! Glad to see you still hanging around here =)

    As much as I like Ken, and think he is solid in a lot of situations, he still struggles to convert damage at effective ranges where many other characters shine. I'd also say that he's actually one of the better P-Groove characters despite the shortage of that lol, but I really can't say he's that good because the best players that I've seen only use him in C-Groove and are only mildly successful. I'm stuck in the early 2000s though, so there may have been some players that put him on the map after 2006.
    "That you float along in the ocean and live a life of peace does not come from your own resourcefulness." - Demon's Sermon on Martial Arts
  • OuroborusOuroborus plays 3s just to troll Joined: Posts: 7,181 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    I thought about C groove too, but nixed it because C is one of Geese's worst grooves (probably the worst non-S groove). He has more bad matchups in C than other grooves, due to how hard it is for him to get in and stay in without run/low jump, and how generally useless level 1/2 supers are for him. If the team had pretty much anyone better than Geese (remember Naps using those two with Rolento?), C would probably be the best pick.

    Also, I think the spreadsheet (as great of a tool as it is, perfect for people just starting the game) underrates Ken badly.

    C-Geese is super buff and legit. Having a stored TOD super is nothing to be messed with.

    C-groove is a defensive based groove in general and he has a decent zoning game. I don't see how he has more bad matches in C groove. In fact, I don't think K-Geese or any groove Geese has any winning matches against any of the top and high-mid tier.

    K-Geese is scary because of his damage and guard breaking ability. But the way K-Geese gets in is super risky and predictable. Unlike other K-groove characters, he doesn't have any mix ups nor is his low jumps anything spectacular.

    If anything, being in C-groove makes him less free to A-groove compared to K. He can still TOD you to death with C-groove like he can in K, except he doesn't need to take as much risks in C-groove nor is he forced to work with a timer on his TOD.
    ssf4ae tier list regarding Gen:

    D Proto: and where is Gen?
    oORYUOo: you cannot tier what you cannot see
  • TheMuffinManTheMuffinMan 「満」 「寸」 「越」 Joined: Posts: 506 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    edited April 2016
    Ouroborus wrote: »
    C-Geese is super buff and legit. Having a stored TOD super is nothing to be messed with.

    C-groove is a defensive based groove in general and he has a decent zoning game. I don't see how he has more bad matches in C groove. In fact, I don't think K-Geese or any groove Geese has any winning matches against any of the top and high-mid tier.

    K-Geese is scary because of his damage and guard breaking ability. But the way K-Geese gets in is super risky and predictable. Unlike other K-groove characters, he doesn't have any mix ups nor is his low jumps anything spectacular.

    If anything, being in C-groove makes him less free to A-groove compared to K. He can still TOD you to death with C-groove like he can in K, except he doesn't need to take as much risks in C-groove nor is he forced to work with a timer on his TOD.

    I think the reason K-Geese is considered so strong compared to C-Groove is that he has a huge damage advantage over the stronger female characters (Chun, Cammy, and Sakura) who have some of the lower health values. His low-jump is also one of the harder ones to punish because of how low MK hits. Add a 35% damage boost when rage meter is full, and you end up with an offensive monster (good normals too). Nevertheless, he struggles like any other character against a good A-Groove team, so he really is more of a counter to strong C-Groove or P-Groove teams. Just my opinion though.
    "That you float along in the ocean and live a life of peace does not come from your own resourcefulness." - Demon's Sermon on Martial Arts
  • OuroborusOuroborus plays 3s just to troll Joined: Posts: 7,181 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Ouroborus wrote: »
    C-Geese is super buff and legit. Having a stored TOD super is nothing to be messed with.

    C-groove is a defensive based groove in general and he has a decent zoning game. I don't see how he has more bad matches in C groove. In fact, I don't think K-Geese or any groove Geese has any winning matches against any of the top and high-mid tier.

    K-Geese is scary because of his damage and guard breaking ability. But the way K-Geese gets in is super risky and predictable. Unlike other K-groove characters, he doesn't have any mix ups nor is his low jumps anything spectacular.

    If anything, being in C-groove makes him less free to A-groove compared to K. He can still TOD you to death with C-groove like he can in K, except he doesn't need to take as much risks in C-groove nor is he forced to work with a timer on his TOD.

    I think the reason K-Geese is considered so strong compared to C-Groove is that he has a huge damage advantage over the stronger female characters (Chun, Cammy, and Sakura) who have some of the lower health values. His low-jump is also one of the harder ones to punish because of how low MK hits. Add a 35% damage boost when rage meter is full, and you end up with an offensive monster (good normals too). Nevertheless, he struggles like any other character against a good A-Groove team, so he really is more of a counter to strong C-Groove or P-Groove teams. Just my opinion though.

    The huge damage advantage is not that significant as a whole. First of all, all those female characters have better normals and faster walk speed than him.

    Sakura can pretty much pin down and stop Geese in his offense with roll cancel hurricane kicks and theres almost nothing he can do. It doesn't help that hes a tall target. This is probably Geese hardest match up in the game. Chun can also pin him down with roll cancelled spinning bird kicks and she gets the most damage off her a level 1. Out of the three females, Geese does the best vs Cammy but her normals just shits on his.

    C-groove Geese strengths:
    stored TOD
    access to alpha counters
    2-5% damage buff when sitting on 2-3 bars
    air block
    roll cancelled fireballs. rc double reppuken is a decent gtfo move.
    ssf4ae tier list regarding Gen:

    D Proto: and where is Gen?
    oORYUOo: you cannot tier what you cannot see
  • Mr. WarzardMr. Warzard CvS2 Commissioner Gordon Joined: Posts: 779
    Yo! What up, Warzard! Glad to see you still hanging around here =)

    As much as I like Ken, and think he is solid in a lot of situations, he still struggles to convert damage at effective ranges where many other characters shine. I'd also say that he's actually one of the better P-Groove characters despite the shortage of that lol, but I really can't say he's that good because the best players that I've seen only use him in C-Groove and are only mildly successful. I'm stuck in the early 2000s though, so there may have been some players that put him on the map after 2006.

    Sup man! Yeah srk is a pale shadow of what it once was, but I still check it every now and then to see if anybody posts. Holler if you need help with cvs2 at evo this year, I hope it goes down again.

    Re: Ken, yeah, nobody's really been able to replicate what Choi has done with the character. The thing is, RC funky kick allows him to hang with the top-tiers poke-wise, and he does have the best crossup in the game, with painful level 2 cancels. His offense is really strong, especially for a C-groove character.

    Other grooves lose the lvl2 cancels, but his level 3 shippu super hits really hard to compensate. N groove is just a step behind C, though it's N so nobody except Daidouraku has made it work. A Ken is legit too (Gunter has him in the top 10) and both K and P Ken are among the stronger characters in those grooves. I don't think he's quite top-tier, but he's on the same level as Todo, Terry and Yun in the spreadsheet. I'm sure he outclasses those characters.
    Holding a shovel over SF4's grave.
    CVS2: The Nine Ball of Fighting Games
    Apoc was right: http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/comment/556915/#Comment_556915
  • Mr. WarzardMr. Warzard CvS2 Commissioner Gordon Joined: Posts: 779
    Ouroborus wrote: »
    C-Geese is super buff and legit. Having a stored TOD super is nothing to be messed with.

    C-groove is a defensive based groove in general and he has a decent zoning game. I don't see how he has more bad matches in C groove. In fact, I don't think K-Geese or any groove Geese has any winning matches against any of the top and high-mid tier.

    K-Geese is scary because of his damage and guard breaking ability. But the way K-Geese gets in is super risky and predictable. Unlike other K-groove characters, he doesn't have any mix ups nor is his low jumps anything spectacular.

    If anything, being in C-groove makes him less free to A-groove compared to K. He can still TOD you to death with C-groove like he can in K, except he doesn't need to take as much risks in C-groove nor is he forced to work with a timer on his TOD.

    I dunno man, we just don't see eye to eye on Geese, that's well-established. My opinions:

    - Geese's zoning is poor, because he does get outpoked by top-tiers as you say. Being able to TK air fireballs consistently might help, but air fireball is super unsafe against roll grooves, making this risky.

    - I can't say that Geese flat out wins against any of the top tiers; but I do think in K he goes pretty even against all except Sagat and A-Sakura. While he doesn't outpoke many of them, his pokes are good enough for him to get a chance to get in, where his over-the-top stun and guard crush games can win matches for him. But in any groove, he has to get in to win, he's not going to win many matches trying to play defensively. And C groove gives him the least opportunities to get in of perhaps any groove. That's why his matchups all become worse in C, because it turns him into a character that relies on pokes, and there are too many better characters at that for him to do well.

    K helps him immensely, with JD allowing him to take more risks in the air, and giving him more chances on the ground to use his buttons. Low jump gives him better mobility, and gives him access to low jump HK, which is a really good poke (especially against tall characters), in addition to his crossup and other good buttons like HP and MP. And of course rage plays to his strengths at stun and guard-breaking.

    N at least gives him his mobility options to help him stay in once he does get in. And parry gives Geese free knockdowns/offense to play with, even though losing run sucks. The best thing C gives him is stored, abundant meter. His TOD combo is nice, but even meterless his B&B does some of the best damage/stun in the game, which is what makes him so scary in the first place (particularly against low-stun characters).

    Small things:

    - Sak can't just do RC hurricane kicks "predictable(y)" against Geese, it's a manageable fight until she gets meter.

    - Chun/Cammy are both about even for K Geese. He's not as free on the ground against them as you say, and the damage and life differences matter. Chun has to get point blank for SBK trapping to be an issue, and she can't get in for free against Geese.
    Holding a shovel over SF4's grave.
    CVS2: The Nine Ball of Fighting Games
    Apoc was right: http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/comment/556915/#Comment_556915
  • TheMuffinManTheMuffinMan 「満」 「寸」 「越」 Joined: Posts: 506 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Both of you guys make strong points, but one thing I want to touch on regarding the SBK trap with Chun is that it's really not as strong as is thought. All versions of SBK are -2 on block, so you can force Chun to throw tech 100% of the time (if she's meterless) which pushes you far enough to be in a decent neutral situation. This is something I've done against Chuns for years, and it has always been successful. Most of the time Chun players will resort to doing Lv2 Kikosho into Lv1 once they realize they can't continue pressure, so it ends up being a free bait if you play K or P groove since you can OS throw/JD/Parry.

    Just wanted to address that point.

    Really, I'm just happy to see some modern discussion on CvS2 lol.

    Warzard: BAS hit me up about a tournament this year, but I decided not to attend EVO this year. I know he's looking for some help in setting it up on-site, so if you're interested in doing it again I'm sure he'd love the help. He mentioned that he found a converter that allows composite to HDMI or some other HD signal that is completely lagless, so no CRTs needed to run CvS2 at EVO. I'd be amazed if he actually found something like that.
    "That you float along in the ocean and live a life of peace does not come from your own resourcefulness." - Demon's Sermon on Martial Arts
  • Mr. WarzardMr. Warzard CvS2 Commissioner Gordon Joined: Posts: 779
    edited April 2016
    Thanks for the tech! Much safer than going for reversal/timing a jab right out of blockstun.

    LOL I'm always down to talk about cvs2. Hope you guys are still playing down in SoCal, we still have our monthly gatherings here.

    That's too bad we won't be seeing you at Evo this year. That would be amazing if Bas found an adapter like that for ps2. I know there are some decent options for dreamcast with the VGA box, but I can't imagine too many ppl have DC-compatible sticks these days.
    Holding a shovel over SF4's grave.
    CVS2: The Nine Ball of Fighting Games
    Apoc was right: http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/comment/556915/#Comment_556915
  • OuroborusOuroborus plays 3s just to troll Joined: Posts: 7,181 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Both of you guys make strong points, but one thing I want to touch on regarding the SBK trap with Chun is that it's really not as strong as is thought. All versions of SBK are -2 on block, so you can force Chun to throw tech 100% of the time (if she's meterless) which pushes you far enough to be in a decent neutral situation. This is something I've done against Chuns for years, and it has always been successful. Most of the time Chun players will resort to doing Lv2 Kikosho into Lv1 once they realize they can't continue pressure, so it ends up being a free bait if you play K or P groove since you can OS throw/JD/Parry.

    You are right, it is not that strong of a trap compared to Sakura's hurricane kicks and vega's claw roll. Overall, the SBK trap is not even that useful of a tool since a majority of the cast can just duck it.

    However tall characters like Geese still has to deal with this safe low risk move, especially when roll cancelled. Its especially harder to deal with this in K groove since you have to jd all hits or block it and have nothing guaranteed afterwards. The opponent can also change it up with lk and mk sbk to throw off your jd timing.
    ssf4ae tier list regarding Gen:

    D Proto: and where is Gen?
    oORYUOo: you cannot tier what you cannot see
  • TheMuffinManTheMuffinMan 「満」 「寸」 「越」 Joined: Posts: 506 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    LOL I'm always down to talk about cvs2. Hope you guys are still playing down in SoCal, we still have our monthly gatherings here.

    Damn. I wish we had something like that down here. Even if we do monthlies, it'd be a struggle to get people to show up cause of how spread out we are.
    Ouroborus wrote: »
    However tall characters like Geese still has to deal with this safe low risk move, especially when roll cancelled. Its especially harder to deal with this in K groove since you have to jd all hits or block it and have nothing guaranteed afterwards. The opponent can also change it up with lk and mk sbk to throw off your jd timing.

    Yea. Tall characters are very susceptible to abusable specials like Sakura's tatsu and Chun's SBK. You have to really grind it out in training mode to be able to consistently deal with those types of moves. K-Groove can deal with it better than other grooves depending on the character, but it can be daunting if you aren't used to being in that position. For example, you can kind of cheat JD timings vs. different strengths of SBK by doing Back+HP/HK every two JDs (the 6-frame window between each hit is not large enough to allow a move in-between).

    Nevertheless, you still have to know when the move combos on block and when it doesn't, and how to adjust timing for RCs or different block strings. That's the beauty of CvS2 though!
    "That you float along in the ocean and live a life of peace does not come from your own resourcefulness." - Demon's Sermon on Martial Arts
  • OuroborusOuroborus plays 3s just to troll Joined: Posts: 7,181 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    edited April 2016
    LOL I'm always down to talk about cvs2. Hope you guys are still playing down in SoCal, we still have our monthly gatherings here.

    Damn. I wish we had something like that down here. Even if we do monthlies, it'd be a struggle to get people to show up cause of how spread out we are.
    Ouroborus wrote: »
    However tall characters like Geese still has to deal with this safe low risk move, especially when roll cancelled. Its especially harder to deal with this in K groove since you have to jd all hits or block it and have nothing guaranteed afterwards. The opponent can also change it up with lk and mk sbk to throw off your jd timing.

    Yea. Tall characters are very susceptible to abusable specials like Sakura's tatsu and Chun's SBK. You have to really grind it out in training mode to be able to consistently deal with those types of moves. K-Groove can deal with it better than other grooves depending on the character, but it can be daunting if you aren't used to being in that position. For example, you can kind of cheat JD timings vs. different strengths of SBK by doing Back+HP/HK every two JDs (the 6-frame window between each hit is not large enough to allow a move in-between).

    Nevertheless, you still have to know when the move combos on block and when it doesn't, and how to adjust timing for RCs or different block strings. That's the beauty of CvS2 though!

    I'm pretty sure other grooves can deal with abusable multi hit RCs better than K-groove. All it takes is an alpha counter or roll thru to avoid and even punish those abusable RCs. You can also counter RC. P-groove only need to parry once since the invincibility wears off right as the first hit gets parried.

    Against single hitting rc specials like honda's headbutt, K-groove does really well.
    ssf4ae tier list regarding Gen:

    D Proto: and where is Gen?
    oORYUOo: you cannot tier what you cannot see
  • PurplePonyArcadePurplePonyArcade Pretentious Android Joined: Posts: 230
    Stupid question:How do you use this?

    Also, hello, N/K Yamazaki/Rugal/Geese main here happy to see this game get some more love.
    The world needs more folk metal
  • Mr. WarzardMr. Warzard CvS2 Commissioner Gordon Joined: Posts: 779
    edited April 2016
    Be sure you enable macros. Then you select the characters you want on the "main" tab and the groove you want to get a rating for the team. If you want to change things, click on the "clear groove" or "clear composition" buttons.

    The spreadsheet says, for example, that the K-groove version of your team is slightly stronger. Of course, those teams would be played pretty differently in each groove, player style is not factored in. It's something that's really helpful for people new to the game, trying to figure out what groove to start in.

    One of the coolest things about cvs2 is how much you adapt your team as you learn and keep playing. There are very few cvs2 players I know who still play with the team/groove they started in.
    Post edited by Mr. Warzard on
    Holding a shovel over SF4's grave.
    CVS2: The Nine Ball of Fighting Games
    Apoc was right: http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/comment/556915/#Comment_556915
  • PurplePonyArcadePurplePonyArcade Pretentious Android Joined: Posts: 230
    Be sure you enable macros. Then you select the characters you want on the "main" tab and the groove you want to get a rating for the team. If you want to change things, click on the "clear groove" or "clear composition" buttons.

    The spreadsheet says, for example, that the K-groove version of your team is slightly stronger. Of course, those teams would be played pretty differently in each groove, player style is not factored in. It's something that's really helpful for people new to the game, trying to figure out what groove to start in.

    One of the coolest things about cvs2 is how much you adapt your team as you learn and keep playing. There are very few cvs2 players I know who still play with the team/groove they started in.

    You make quite a good point, and adjusting and learning is still something I have a lot of work on doing in CvS2.
    Wish I had a decent cab around here. I tend to be terrible with emu..(REDACTED) and the closest cab I ever see is the one we get at FR thats only here once a year. I still have at least something to practice with though with the okayish ports.
    The world needs more folk metal
  • FreddyDFreddyD Joined: Posts: 7
    Really glad I found this!! Sending it to all of my friends that I recently got into cvs2 over the passed few months. A few questions though...

    1) Are you planning on updating this?

    2) Would you say theres a cut off line for viability for characters? (like anyone In D is considered unviable??)

    3) Is the tier list based on character potential? Didn't realize how much Bison and Sakura sucked outside of A groove.
  • TheMuffinManTheMuffinMan 「満」 「寸」 「越」 Joined: Posts: 506 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    FreddyD wrote: »
    Really glad I found this!! Sending it to all of my friends that I recently got into cvs2 over the passed few months. A few questions though...

    1) Are you planning on updating this?

    2) Would you say theres a cut off line for viability for characters? (like anyone In D is considered unviable??)

    3) Is the tier list based on character potential? Didn't realize how much Bison and Sakura sucked outside of A groove.

    Thanks! Glad you found some use of it!

    1. I update here and there, but nothing much changes considering the current competitive state of the game. Is there something you had in mind?

    2. Viability is a very general term representing the amount of high-level talent representing the character(s). I'd say you can make any character work if you put in enough work and play well enough. Kyosuke, for example, is pretty bad, but he can actually put a lot of pressure on K-Groove players due to his design. It's all relative.

    3. In my opinion, the tier list for this game would have to include the collective effectiveness of a character in every groove and in every match-up. This document represents my opinion on the first half of that, but the latter would require a lot more work. It's worth noting that a character who appears to suck when compared to its best groove doesn't necessarily suck outside of that groove.

    CvS2 is technically a very young game competitively because there is a lot of depth, and it didn't last as long as a game like 3rd Strike or Super Turbo. There's still a lot of stuff that is unknown and may have changed the competitive scene for CvS2 if it had lasted longer as a mainstay title.
    "That you float along in the ocean and live a life of peace does not come from your own resourcefulness." - Demon's Sermon on Martial Arts
  • RenegadeRenegade Joined: Posts: 3,128 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Hola!

    I enjoy making stuff in Excel cause I'm crazy like that, so I decided to do a spreadsheet that gives you stats and ratings for your CvS2 team composition. It doesn't account for single or double-character compositions, but I'm satisfied with where it is at this point. It's not perfect, and the information is based on my experience and stuff I've talked about with BAS, so veterans may not gain anything from it.

    Hello! This is pretty awesome! Most of my quibbles are of the subjective variety.

    First, your base rankings are formed an AVERAGE of your 3 subjective stats (power, movement, range) along with the AVERAGE of the 6 grooves.

    This doesn't make any sense.

    You're penalizing A-groove Sakura for having one dominant groove. (BTW, she's definitely more than capable in C)


    And then very specific things:

    Underrates:
    Vice (should be 3 in N/A, 2 in C)
    Yun (3 in C)
    Morrigan (3 in N)
    Joe (3 in C/N)
    Kim (3 in C)
    Iori (4 in N)
    Ken (4 in C)

    Overrates:
    M.Bison (Boxer)
    Chun Li (4 in N)
    Dan (lol)


    Like: I think about best characters in best grooves as 5:
    Blanka, Dictator, Sakura, Sagat, Cammy.

    The next level "high tier" should have have 4's in their best groove:
    Claw, Chun, Honda, Hibiki, Iori, Geese, Honda, Rolento, Ken, Guile, Rolento

    Then the decent mid tier characters 3 in their best
    Kyo, Rock, Eagle, Mai, Vice, Yun, Rugal, Todo, Morrigan, Akuma, Kim, Yama, Joe, Ryu

    Then the "not so good" characters
    Yuri, Beni, Nako, Chang, Raiden, Zangief, Ryo, Boxer, Athena, Sim,

    Bad
    Kyosuke, King, Dan
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  • JaguarandineJaguarandine Joined: Posts: 218 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    edited December 2016
    Glad to see some cvs2 discussion again!

    I love the idea of this spreadsheet for new players. Nice work! The great thing about it is that it's configurable and can therefore be changed. Renegade and others have some good ideas, and I'm sure the community could come to some consensus. However, it's basically telling us hardcore people what we already know, and is therefore not too useful for the few that remain here (might work better in the Facebook group).
    Ouroborus wrote: »
    C-Geese is super buff and legit. Having a stored TOD super is nothing to be messed with.

    C-groove is a defensive based groove in general and he has a decent zoning game. I don't see how he has more bad matches in C groove. In fact, I don't think K-Geese or any groove Geese has any winning matches against any of the top and high-mid tier.

    K-Geese is scary because of his damage and guard breaking ability. But the way K-Geese gets in is super risky and predictable. Unlike other K-groove characters, he doesn't have any mix ups nor is his low jumps anything spectacular.

    If anything, being in C-groove makes him less free to A-groove compared to K. He can still TOD you to death with C-groove like he can in K, except he doesn't need to take as much risks in C-groove nor is he forced to work with a timer on his TOD.

    I dunno man, we just don't see eye to eye on Geese, that's well-established. My opinions:

    - Geese's zoning is poor, because he does get outpoked by top-tiers as you say. Being able to TK air fireballs consistently might help, but air fireball is super unsafe against roll grooves, making this risky.

    - I can't say that Geese flat out wins against any of the top tiers; but I do think in K he goes pretty even against all except Sagat and A-Sakura. While he doesn't outpoke many of them, his pokes are good enough for him to get a chance to get in, where his over-the-top stun and guard crush games can win matches for him. But in any groove, he has to get in to win, he's not going to win many matches trying to play defensively. And C groove gives him the least opportunities to get in of perhaps any groove. That's why his matchups all become worse in C, because it turns him into a character that relies on pokes, and there are too many better characters at that for him to do well.

    K helps him immensely, with JD allowing him to take more risks in the air, and giving him more chances on the ground to use his buttons. Low jump gives him better mobility, and gives him access to low jump HK, which is a really good poke (especially against tall characters), in addition to his crossup and other good buttons like HP and MP. And of course rage plays to his strengths at stun and guard-breaking.

    N at least gives him his mobility options to help him stay in once he does get in. And parry gives Geese free knockdowns/offense to play with, even though losing run sucks. The best thing C gives him is stored, abundant meter. His TOD combo is nice, but even meterless his B&B does some of the best damage/stun in the game, which is what makes him so scary in the first place (particularly against low-stun characters).

    Small things:

    - Sak can't just do RC hurricane kicks "predictable(y)" against Geese, it's a manageable fight until she gets meter.

    - Chun/Cammy are both about even for K Geese. He's not as free on the ground against them as you say, and the damage and life differences matter. Chun has to get point blank for SBK trapping to be an issue, and she can't get in for free against Geese.

    Well said. I do think Geese is a good character in general and can be played well in pretty much any groove, but C-Groove is one of the weaker variations. Here's why:

    - Geese in general has a more difficult time approaching, due to his speed and footsies. C-Groove doesn't make this better. His roll is no good, and unlike other characters, he can't use roll cancels to force his way in.
    - Geese with stored super is deadly (maybe preferable considering his problems approaching), but C Geese has to earn 168 points for a Level 3. Compare that to A-Geese which has many of same options as C, but also gets a super powerful and versatile CC at 144 points. Also, while P-Geese gets Level 3 later than C, P has better approach options and footsies in neutral with the parry.

    I think the Geese tier list looks something like this:

    K>A=P>N=C

    With that said, I do think K-Geese is somewhat overrated (in relation to the other good Geese grooves) and many people don't talk about his weaknesses enough. Ouroborus makes some good points in regards to that.

    Personally, I've been playing a lot of S-Geese. I think on paper, he could be really strong (it was talked about a lot in the first S-Groove thread years ago). Rather than derail the topic, I'll bring it up in the team discussion thread if anyone wants to hear more. ;)
    Post edited by Jaguarandine on
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  • TheMuffinManTheMuffinMan 「満」 「寸」 「越」 Joined: Posts: 506 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Renegade wrote: »
    Hello! This is pretty awesome! Most of my quibbles are of the subjective variety.

    First, your base rankings are formed an AVERAGE of your 3 subjective stats (power, movement, range) along with the AVERAGE of the 6 grooves.

    This doesn't make any sense.

    You're penalizing A-groove Sakura for having one dominant groove. (BTW, she's definitely more than capable in C)

    And then very specific things:

    Underrates:
    Vice (should be 3 in N/A, 2 in C)
    Yun (3 in C)
    Morrigan (3 in N)
    Joe (3 in C/N)
    Kim (3 in C)
    Iori (4 in N)
    Ken (4 in C)

    Overrates:
    M.Bison (Boxer)
    Chun Li (4 in N)
    Dan (lol)


    Like: I think about best characters in best grooves as 5:
    Blanka, Dictator, Sakura, Sagat, Cammy.

    The next level "high tier" should have have 4's in their best groove:
    Claw, Chun, Honda, Hibiki, Iori, Geese, Honda, Rolento, Ken, Guile, Rolento

    Then the decent mid tier characters 3 in their best
    Kyo, Rock, Eagle, Mai, Vice, Yun, Rugal, Todo, Morrigan, Akuma, Kim, Yama, Joe, Ryu

    Then the "not so good" characters
    Yuri, Beni, Nako, Chang, Raiden, Zangief, Ryo, Boxer, Athena, Sim,

    Bad
    Kyosuke, King, Dan

    Sorry for the late response! Thanks for the feedback and for checking out the doc!

    A main reason for the example you mention about A-Sakura is that I based the criteria of tiers on a character's combined performance in all of the grooves. In my opinion, if the character only excels in a single groove, there's no reason to give the idea that having this character on any team will improve the team's rating. Realistically, I think Sakura is a great character with great tools, but she's really only hindered in grooves outside of A-groove because of low health and low damage output. I'm guessing a matchup chart would likely be more accurate to what you're saying than something studying team compositions because a character's strength may be better measured by its advantages against other characters.

    This is mostly subjective though as you said, so it's good to discuss and learn everyone's opinions on these things.

    That is a very good tier list btw.
    "That you float along in the ocean and live a life of peace does not come from your own resourcefulness." - Demon's Sermon on Martial Arts
  • Mr. WarzardMr. Warzard CvS2 Commissioner Gordon Joined: Posts: 779
    edited March 10
    The CvS2 board lives!

    Renegade makes some interesting points in his specific suggestions. I agree with most of his base rankings except:

    - I agree that N Chun should be a 4, that is her best groove and she is arguably N-Groove's best character (Sagat being her main competition).

    - C Ken is somewhat controversial - I agree with Renegade's ranking, but I know that Japan really doesn't think much of C Ken. Have you talked to Bas at all about C Ken?

    Holding a shovel over SF4's grave.
    CVS2: The Nine Ball of Fighting Games
    Apoc was right: http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/comment/556915/#Comment_556915
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