Injustice 2 General

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  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 56,857 mod
    edited September 6
    That's why I don't post on twitter. Don't really get any room to go in depth with a discussion of anything you post and you get even more scrubbery and shit posting than you do on a standard forum. I just use it to read certain information/tech or see when an event is happening and that's it.

    Oh well. I don't play this game any ways so good luck with having some type of discussion here and I'll see whoever is playing Infinite in the forums when it launches.

    Ain't nothin, Capcom's ruthless still producin.  Cut em a check or find yoself toothless.  Keep it shill with no confusin.  Niggas say I'm shill...they ain't hard I can prove it YEEEAH


  • Nobus3r1Nobus3r1 #RiseUp? Joined: Posts: 5,281
    Nobus3r1 wrote: »
    I recently registered for TYM and am already kind of regretting that decision. Since you've been here about as long as I have hopefully this reference isn't lost on you but there are too many 'Cisco' type persons there to have a productive discussion on almost anything.

    Wow, a deep cut from the UMVC3 General Discussion. Also incredibly spot on.
    I did not idly make that comparison. I wish it wasn't the case but it seems to be. Even more tragic is ~1/2 of the people who fall into that profile are mods or admins. -_-
    Combo damage wasn't crazy, but landing a MB f3 or b3 (Both of hers which are ridiculously good) was leading to 50+% for no reason. That felt buggy. I agree her chip damage is her best asset, and I would not have changed it at all. I think there are enough built-in checks to how it works to prevent it from dominating the game.
    Except they nerfed things like B2 and increased the scaling on her trait. I don't really care. I was half-assed working on her as a secondary because I saw the amount of bitching about her within 24 hours of her release was like like: "This is not a character that's going to be worth investing time in long term because deserved or not she's going to get nerfed". Also, the built-in checks to keep her from dominating the game are called Deadshot and Green Arrow.
    The Starfire talk is one of many things where it's like the discourse around her is incredibly hyperbolic for no reason other than morons on Twitter. And it's the usual suspects, so you know it's BS.
    Yeah, the number of people calling her an unquestionably (-_-) top 5 character within the first day or two after her release was really too much.
    As I'm sure you're beginning to notice, the relative lack of experience in most of the NRS Scene's top players + most of them being literal children = terrible takes and talking points. Add to that the mid level being very, very bad, and you have what TYM is. It's an unfortunate state.
    It also doesn't help IMO that one of the more public faces of the NRS community (Tom Brady) could probably stand to get some counseling but is instead treated as more of a joke. It's also not quit the top players usually. More often, in my experience, the dumbest things are coming out of the players who're just below the upper echelon but who don't see themselves as being in that second tier of player.
    From what I've known about NRS players a good bit of them are generally way too whiny and abrasive to bother conversating with.
    So far this has mostly been borne out.
    Plus they have issues with Evo/Mr.Wiz so a lot of them probably wouldn't bother posting here.
    From what I'm aware of it seems like the issues are quit justified.
    Which leaves you with posting on a site that traditionally doesn't care about talking about NRS games. Remember the MK9 thread being dead as a door nail after a couple months and can't remember how long there was even a relevant discussion for MKX. Especially with no PC version of the game I don't see how this thread will last with more than 1 or 2 people posting every once in a while. Can't just make a big comeback when a forum has gone through a whole month without anyone posting.

    The other people I know that play/played IJ2 that have accounts here don't even post here.
    To be fair this sub-forum was an unkempt disaster up until a day or two ago and could probably still stand to see some of the older posts cleaned up. Also, who other than Evil Canadian and Hawkingbird are you thinking of?
    House of Bane
    ID: 8V596
  • KingHippo42KingHippo42 Da King Joined: Posts: 1,231
    Nobus3r1 wrote: »
    I did not idly make that comparison. I wish it wasn't the case but it seems to be. Even more tragic is ~1/2 of the people who fall into that profile are mods or admins. -_-

    You'll get no argument from me. There is no vetting process, and generally if you post enough, you are made a mod. You can probably see the issue here.
    Nobus3r1 wrote: »
    Except they nerfed things like B2 and increased the scaling on her trait. I don't really care. I was half-assed working on her as a secondary because I saw the amount of bitching about her within 24 hours of her release was like like: "This is not a character that's going to be worth investing time in long term because deserved or not she's going to get nerfed". Also, the built-in checks to keep her from dominating the game are called Deadshot and Green Arrow.

    Well, yes, this is how it usually happens. It's not the b3 or f3 causing the problem, it's the scaling on one of the moves she does in the combo. In this case, it was probably the scaling on her trait and uppercut, which have now been adjusted. I would say those two are obvious minor counters, but I could see characters like Fate and Batman and Catwoman doing that job just as well.

    Nobus3r1 wrote: »
    It also doesn't help IMO that one of the more public faces of the NRS community (Tom Brady) could probably stand to get some counseling but is instead treated as more of a joke. It's also not quit the top players usually. More often, in my experience, the dumbest things are coming out of the players who're just below the upper echelon but who don't see themselves as being in that second tier of player.

    The Menoutis thing is interesting because, as I mentioned before, it's hard to shake off first impressions to the general FGC, and one of them is that Tom Brady is a tome of knowledge and a top player when it comes to these games. The truth, as we now know, is that Tom is a mid to low-mid level player who has coasted on his experiencing testing the games pre-release to steal some placings early and then generally disappear. He's lauded as someone who can "break games down," but even a rudimentary examining of his opinions would reveal a stunning lack of understanding. I agree that he probably needs a good prescription and the name of a good therapist, and I also agree that as a "face" of the community we couldn't have worse.

    Yes, I should clarify, there is actual Top Players (Sonic, Dragon, Theo, etc.), and then there is "Top" players (Tweedy, BeyondToxin, Slayer, REO, etc.) who we are expected to treat as if they are ultra top but are, as you put it, just below the upper echelon. But you'd be surprised at how bad the opinions of even the actual Top can be. Stick around!

    Injustice: Deathstroke
  • Nobus3r1Nobus3r1 #RiseUp? Joined: Posts: 5,281
    You'll get no argument from me. There is no vetting process, and generally if you post enough, you are made a mod. You can probably see the issue here.
    I generally subscribe to the theory that it's a bad idea to give power to those who're explicitly asking for it (i.e. politicians, most mods on SRK, etc.) but just going off of seniority probably isn't a good look either. It's a tedious thankless task and having immature people performing it can really undermine the functionality of the entire site.
    The Menoutis thing is interesting because, as I mentioned before, it's hard to shake off first impressions to the general FGC, and one of them is that Tom Brady is a tome of knowledge and a top player when it comes to these games. The truth, as we now know, is that Tom is a mid to low-mid level player who has coasted on his experiencing testing the games pre-release to steal some placings early and then generally disappear. He's lauded as someone who can "break games down," but even a rudimentary examining of his opinions would reveal a stunning lack of understanding. I agree that he probably needs a good prescription and the name of a good therapist, and I also agree that as a "face" of the community we couldn't have worse.
    Yeah, I've never understood the level of regard that Tom gets versus the actual results that Tom gets. Old =/= good and/or knowledgeable. My dad is about 30 years older than Tom and I'd be more likely to seek him [my dad] out for help getting better at a game because even lacking even the most rudimentary knowledge of the game in question he's a far more stable person capable of dispensing general knowledge on how to approach competition.
    Yes, I should clarify, there is actual Top Players (Sonic, Dragon, Theo, etc.), and then there is "Top" players (Tweedy, BeyondToxin, Slayer, REO, etc.) who we are expected to treat as if they are ultra top but are, as you put it, just below the upper echelon. But you'd be surprised at how bad the opinions of even the actual Top can be. Stick around!
    Yeah, this post (which 26 people agreed with) courtesy of A F0xy Grandpa is one of the dumber things I've seen committed to text recently. I could point out how despite being basic as shit that Starfire is still, somehow, harder to play than Deadshot (especially her corner combos -_-) or that her mixup game is basically nonexistent compared to his but since he's a name and I'm not it won't matter that I'm 100% right in my points. I'd still get him + all the people who hate Deadshot and don't play Starfire jumping down my throat. This is why you won't find a response from me making those points later in that thread. You'll get me to agree that Starfire is strong but she's not a dominant or complete enough character to instantly get me off my main and/or make me conclude that I'd have a better shot at winning if I mirror match you.
    House of Bane
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  • KingHippo42KingHippo42 Da King Joined: Posts: 1,231
    Nobus3r1 wrote: »
    Yeah, this post (which 26 people agreed with) courtesy of A F0xy Grandpa is one of the dumber things I've seen committed to text recently. I could point out how despite being basic as shit that Starfire is still, somehow, harder to play than Deadshot (especially her corner combos -_-) or that her mixup game is basically nonexistent compared to his but since he's a name and I'm not it won't matter that I'm 100% right in my points. I'd still get him + all the people who hate Deadshot and don't play Starfire jumping down my throat. This is why you won't find a response from me making those points later in that thread. You'll get me to agree that Starfire is strong but she's not a dominant or complete enough character to instantly get me off my main and/or make me conclude that I'd have a better shot at winning if I mirror match you.

    Oh yeah, posts from UK and EU NRS players tend to be real bad because it almost feels as if a different game is being played entirely. I would chalk that up to, with years of experience and results to back this up, their general inferiority to the American players, which in turn is reflected in their mid level being somehow worse than the US level. There's a mod named Youphemism, Scottish guy, who posts and stomps around like he's King Kong but has actually gone 0-2 at both US majors he's come to because, shockingly, the level of the Scottish NRS group was not enough to get him even a lick of victory.

    Foxy has an interesting history. For years, we had been told he was a great player, but had very little actual, pertinent results to prove it. An Evo adventure in 2012 proved fruitless when he collapsed in the street and conked his head, thus forever staining the results (I would argue that he lost to a journeyman SoCal player and could only beat REO who was then not using Kabal, which doesn't bode well). There was no travel in IGAU, and in MKX he finally showed that he is a pretty competent player, but even by the end he was falling off and not quite the dominant player that he was in the early days. My guess is, as his attitude and discourse has yet to improve, we may see a similar situation in I2.
    Injustice: Deathstroke
  • Nobus3r1Nobus3r1 #RiseUp? Joined: Posts: 5,281
    Oh yeah, posts from UK and EU NRS players tend to be real bad because it almost feels as if a different game is being played entirely. I would chalk that up to, with years of experience and results to back this up, their general inferiority to the American players, which in turn is reflected in their mid level being somehow worse than the US level. There's a mod named Youphemism, Scottish guy, who posts and stomps around like he's King Kong but has actually gone 0-2 at both US majors he's come to because, shockingly, the level of the Scottish NRS group was not enough to get him even a lick of victory.
    I am Jack's lack of surprise. You've also mostly described why I don't give a shit what non-Japanese players think with regards to anime games. Amusingly players who come out of somewhere with no scene and succeed like Tekken_Master (Bahrain) and Yammini (Israel) make people like the guy you're describing look even worse.
    Foxy has an interesting history. For years, we had been told he was a great player, but had very little actual, pertinent results to prove it. An Evo adventure in 2012 proved fruitless when he collapsed in the street and conked his head, thus forever staining the results (I would argue that he lost to a journeyman SoCal player and could only beat REO who was then not using Kabal, which doesn't bode well). There was no travel in IGAU, and in MKX he finally showed that he is a pretty competent player, but even by the end he was falling off and not quite the dominant player that he was in the early days. My guess is, as his attitude and discourse has yet to improve, we may see a similar situation in I2.
    I wouldn't be surprised, especially not if he keeps getting bopped in mirror matches and/or Deadshot gets the pitchforks and torches level nerfs that some are calling for.
    House of Bane
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  • KingHippo42KingHippo42 Da King Joined: Posts: 1,231
    Perhaps. He found a way in MKX by switching from Kung Lao to Mileena, and I think he could do the same. Like I said, attitude is everything. Look at how far down the line PerfectLegend has fallen to see how far that goes.

    To break up the monotony, what are some hot takes regarding character strength? I guess the only ones I have is that I think Wonder Woman is highly, highly overrated and Firestorm is bad, although I'm not sure those are really all that shocking. Oh, Batman. He's fine, like he doesn't need to be changed. I guess that's an unpopular opinion.
    Injustice: Deathstroke
  • Nobus3r1Nobus3r1 #RiseUp? Joined: Posts: 5,281
    Perhaps. He found a way in MKX by switching from Kung Lao to Mileena, and I think he could do the same. Like I said, attitude is everything. Look at how far down the line PerfectLegend has fallen to see how far that goes.

    To break up the monotony, what are some hot takes regarding character strength? I guess the only ones I have is that I think Wonder Woman is highly, highly overrated and Firestorm is bad, although I'm not sure those are really all that shocking. Oh, Batman. He's fine, like he doesn't need to be changed. I guess that's an unpopular opinion.
    I don't think that Firestorm is bad rather that there are a lot of characters who do the same thing he does but more easily and/or with a higher damage output.
    I agree that WW is a bit overrated in that people seem to think the last serious patch fixed all her problems when in reality she still doesn't do great against characters with a full screen presence and her trait still blows.
    On the one hand I'm very much in the #NoNerfs camp. On the other hand it probably would be easier to just nerf Batman rather than buff all the character whose shit Batman pushes in. If you're going to leave his trait and his strings alone then every character IMO needs to be able to at least consistently anti-air or air-to-air him as right now there are far too many characters who can do neither.

    I think Harley is a bit underrated. She's definitely under-played. She's certainly one of the harder characters to use but her reward is outstanding meterless damage and a very diverse set of tools. If we were to equate meter with oil then Harley is a character who's powered entirely by wind and solar energy. MB Cupcakes is nice and MB Air guns will occasionally catch someone flinching but overall her best uses for meter are pushblock, MB roll, clash and Super. Once I realized that it definitely changed how I play the character. It might be argued that spending meter on super is a waste but I would argue that for a character who builds meter as easily as Harley who has as little use for it as she does that being able to turn D1 into nearly 500 damage is quit useful.
    House of Bane
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  • KingHippo42KingHippo42 Da King Joined: Posts: 1,231
    Nobus3r1 wrote: »
    On the one hand I'm very much in the #NoNerfs camp. On the other hand it probably would be easier to just nerf Batman rather than buff all the character whose shit Batman pushes in. If you're going to leave his trait and his strings alone then every character IMO needs to be able to at least consistently anti-air or air-to-air him as right now there are far too many characters who can do neither.

    I think Harley is a bit underrated. She's definitely under-played. She's certainly one of the harder characters to use but her reward is outstanding meterless damage and a very diverse set of tools. If we were to equate meter with oil then Harley is a character who's powered entirely by wind and solar energy. MB Cupcakes is nice and MB Air guns will occasionally catch someone flinching but overall her best uses for meter are pushblock, MB roll, clash and Super. Once I realized that it definitely changed how I play the character. It might be argued that spending meter on super is a waste but I would argue that for a character who builds meter as easily as Harley who has as little use for it as she does that being able to turn D1 into nearly 500 damage is quit useful.

    I actually think Batman's j2 is pretty reasonable this time around; in IGAU, it was legitimately almost impossible to hit. In this game it has a far larger hurtbox and his jump arc is higher, both of which contribute to it being easier to tag. I thought the most egregious thing before was he did Black Adam levels of damage, which he no longer does. To me, he destroys characters who can't contend with his unique brand of projectiles, and I think that's okay in the meta of the game right now.

    Harley is definitely really good. Her new trait is a godsend to how she plays, and in a game engine that already heavily rewards walking backwards and defensive characters, she's gotta be one of the best. Her wakeup isn't great, but catching her is also hard, so that's probably okay. The only reason I can think of that we don't see her as much is because she isn't a very strong counter zoner, so she's getting beat up by chars like Fate, Deadshot, Superman, and Aquaman who are fairly popular tournament characters. No reason why someone couldn't do very well with her.
    Injustice: Deathstroke
  • Nobus3r1Nobus3r1 #RiseUp? Joined: Posts: 5,281
    Nobus3r1 wrote: »
    On the one hand I'm very much in the #NoNerfs camp. On the other hand it probably would be easier to just nerf Batman rather than buff all the character whose shit Batman pushes in. If you're going to leave his trait and his strings alone then every character IMO needs to be able to at least consistently anti-air or air-to-air him as right now there are far too many characters who can do neither.

    I think Harley is a bit underrated. She's definitely under-played. She's certainly one of the harder characters to use but her reward is outstanding meterless damage and a very diverse set of tools. If we were to equate meter with oil then Harley is a character who's powered entirely by wind and solar energy. MB Cupcakes is nice and MB Air guns will occasionally catch someone flinching but overall her best uses for meter are pushblock, MB roll, clash and Super. Once I realized that it definitely changed how I play the character. It might be argued that spending meter on super is a waste but I would argue that for a character who builds meter as easily as Harley who has as little use for it as she does that being able to turn D1 into nearly 500 damage is quit useful.

    I actually think Batman's j2 is pretty reasonable this time around; in IGAU, it was legitimately almost impossible to hit. In this game it has a far larger hurtbox and his jump arc is higher, both of which contribute to it being easier to tag. I thought the most egregious thing before was he did Black Adam levels of damage, which he no longer does. To me, he destroys characters who can't contend with his unique brand of projectiles, and I think that's okay in the meta of the game right now.

    Harley is definitely really good. Her new trait is a godsend to how she plays, and in a game engine that already heavily rewards walking backwards and defensive characters, she's gotta be one of the best. Her wakeup isn't great, but catching her is also hard, so that's probably okay. The only reason I can think of that we don't see her as much is because she isn't a very strong counter zoner, so she's getting beat up by chars like Fate, Deadshot, Superman, and Aquaman who are fairly popular tournament characters. No reason why someone couldn't do very well with her.
    With Scarecrow I'm not super worried about his projectiles so long as I don't get randomly snagged by grapple gun. What makes the matchup IMO kind of pointless to run is that I [as Scarecrow] cannot reactively anti-air Batman and nothing I have wins air-to-air.

    Harley doesn't lose to Aquaman because of the zoning she loses because his trait makes all of her combos not work.
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  • KingHippo42KingHippo42 Da King Joined: Posts: 1,231
    Hmmmmm. I have no doubt that Batman vs Scarecrow sucks, but I feel like if he's rushing in without bats and jumping around, that seems prey to Scarecrow's d2, which is pretty good. I play GA and I can clip my training partner's Batman at a pretty reasonable pace, even with his slow d2. If he's mucking it up with his trait then as usual it's tough, but even then, the one bat does so little blockstun that there are times where he's dashed and jumped and I still get him. My general take on a character like Batman is since that he tends to play at range 1, when he's even a little farther than that his options are actually quite limited to either going back to fireballs or sending his trait and then dashing, jumping, or doing a move like f3, all of which have their flaws and are covered by walking back. If I had a i6 d1 and long ranged strings, I'd be wayy more annoyed about his fireballs then I would him jumping around.

    Yes of course, I should have labeled Aquaman as more of an aside. His general style is still brutally effective on Harley, although I imagine the big changes to how he gets damage is probably very nice for her since she does such big damage should she land a hit and he struggles to.
    Injustice: Deathstroke
  • Nobus3r1Nobus3r1 #RiseUp? Joined: Posts: 5,281
    Hmmmmm. I have no doubt that Batman vs Scarecrow sucks, but I feel like if he's rushing in without bats and jumping around, that seems prey to Scarecrow's d2, which is pretty good. I play GA and I can clip my training partner's Batman at a pretty reasonable pace, even with his slow d2. If he's mucking it up with his trait then as usual it's tough, but even then, the one bat does so little blockstun that there are times where he's dashed and jumped and I still get him. My general take on a character like Batman is since that he tends to play at range 1, when he's even a little farther than that his options are actually quite limited to either going back to fireballs or sending his trait and then dashing, jumping, or doing a move like f3, all of which have their flaws and are covered by walking back. If I had a i6 d1 and long ranged strings, I'd be wayy more annoyed about his fireballs then I would him jumping around.

    Yes of course, I should have labeled Aquaman as more of an aside. His general style is still brutally effective on Harley, although I imagine the big changes to how he gets damage is probably very nice for her since she does such big damage should she land a hit and he struggles to.
    Scarecrow's D2 has a good arc to it but it isn't very fast and it blows vs. crossups. I miss Solomon Grundy D2 :bawling:
    House of Bane
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  • KingHippo42KingHippo42 Da King Joined: Posts: 1,231
    edited September 7
    Nobus3r1 wrote: »
    Scarecrow's D2 has a good arc to it but it isn't very fast and it blows vs. crossups. I miss Solomon Grundy D2 :bawling:

    Oh yeah, that was one of the greats. If I had to chart the best ones, it would probably be like:

    Guaranteed
    Captain Cold
    Aquaman
    Supergirl
    Robin

    Low profiling and rarely miss
    Batman
    Black Adam
    Braniac
    Catwoman
    GA
    GL
    Flash

    Tremendous Hitboxes
    Bane
    Blue Beetle
    Wonder Woman
    Joker

    And then the rest in various order. There are some chars who's d2 isn't great but they have tremendous AA moves (Starfire, Atrocitus, Fate). I think AA is in a much better state than in IGAU, where the vast majority it was largely dependent on hope.

    Cold and Robin and Supergirl AA compared to the first game is like...

    nWaVbdQ.gif
    Injustice: Deathstroke
  • Nobus3r1Nobus3r1 #RiseUp? Joined: Posts: 5,281
    I would add that in addition to its anti-air properties that Black Adam's D2 is a special kind of bullshit. I've had that move cleanly beat Scarecrows D3 from ~3/4 character length away. It might genuinely be his best wakeup option.

    The one anti-air that I was really disappointed in was Swamp Things tree special move. When he was revealed I was super hopeful that the move would be fast-ish and have a DD_ for its input. No such luck.
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  • KingHippo42KingHippo42 Da King Joined: Posts: 1,231
    Oh it's so freaking good. There was a really intense match between Theo and Dragon at I think Summerjam, and in a last second scramble, Adam's d2 beat Superman j1 late, and that j1 is one of the strongest in the game. Absurd.

    Yeah, turns out Swamp Thing's AA was destined to be s1, which is pretty decent.
    Injustice: Deathstroke
  • Nobus3r1Nobus3r1 #RiseUp? Joined: Posts: 5,281
    Oh it's so freaking good. There was a really intense match between Theo and Dragon at I think Summerjam, and in a last second scramble, Adam's d2 beat Superman j1 late, and that j1 is one of the strongest in the game. Absurd.

    Yeah, turns out Swamp Thing's AA was destined to be s1, which is pretty decent.
    I was going to say that having S1 for your main anti-air is pretty meh but I realized that I genuinely haven't seen enough even mid-level Swamp Thing play to properly assess how valid a tool it is. That character has problems.
    House of Bane
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  • KingHippo42KingHippo42 Da King Joined: Posts: 1,231
    Nobus3r1 wrote: »
    I was going to say that having S1 for your main anti-air is pretty meh but I realized that I genuinely haven't seen enough even mid-level Swamp Thing play to properly assess how valid a tool it is. That character has problems.

    It's actually not bad, a disjointed vine whip attack. Obviously him standing is the sucky part, but there could be worse. You could be Ivy.

    Injustice: Deathstroke
  • Nobus3r1Nobus3r1 #RiseUp? Joined: Posts: 5,281
    Nobus3r1 wrote: »
    I was going to say that having S1 for your main anti-air is pretty meh but I realized that I genuinely haven't seen enough even mid-level Swamp Thing play to properly assess how valid a tool it is. That character has problems.

    It's actually not bad, a disjointed vine whip attack. Obviously him standing is the sucky part, but there could be worse. You could be Ivy.
    But...but...they said they buffed her D2... :lol: There are things I worry about when I play against Ivy. Getting anti-aired is not one of those things.
    House of Bane
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  • KingHippo42KingHippo42 Da King Joined: Posts: 1,231
    edited September 8
    Nobus3r1 wrote: »
    But...but...they said they buffed her D2... :lol: There are things I worry about when I play against Ivy. Getting anti-aired is not one of those things.

    Well what's nuts is they actually did buff it a fair amount, it's much better than it use to be, but the point was it was always supposed to be her weakness. Now, do I feel that that weakness is necessary because of her design? Absolutely not, and I think that was just a general misread because I would think by now it's pretty clear that Ivy is one of the worst characters in the game because as it turns out, instant zoom projectiles still can't hold a candle to traditional horizontal ones for keeping people away, so she doesn't even do that well. Really she's useful to fight a character like perhaps Captain Cold because she can make him stop doing ice grenade, and I guess maybe she does okay against like Wonder Woman or Robin?

    Not to mention you can't do anything really significant with a d1, which is a critical, critical flaw.
    Injustice: Deathstroke
  • Nobus3r1Nobus3r1 #RiseUp? Joined: Posts: 5,281
    Nobus3r1 wrote: »
    But...but...they said they buffed her D2... :lol: There are things I worry about when I play against Ivy. Getting anti-aired is not one of those things.

    Well what's nuts is they actually did buff it a fair amount, it's much better than it use to be, but the point was it was always supposed to be her weakness. Now, do I feel that that weakness is necessary because of her design? Absolutely not, and I think that was just a general misread because I would think by now it's pretty clear that Ivy is one of the worst characters in the game because as it turns out, instant zoom projectiles still can't hold a candle to traditional horizontal ones for keeping people away, so she doesn't even do that well. Really she's useful to fight a character like perhaps Captain Cold because she can make him stop doing ice grenade, and I guess maybe she does okay against like Wonder Woman or Robin?

    Not to mention you can't do anything really significant with a d1, which is a critical, critical flaw.
    If I was going to try to fight Captain Cold with that sort of approach I feel like Aquaman or Atrocitus would work better. I mean, I guess Ivy might do OK too but it seems like she's in a spot where there are better and/or easier options.
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  • KingHippo42KingHippo42 Da King Joined: Posts: 1,231
    edited September 8
    Nobus3r1 wrote: »
    If I was going to try to fight Captain Cold with that sort of approach I feel like Aquaman or Atrocitus would work better. I mean, I guess Ivy might do OK too but it seems like she's in a spot where there are better and/or easier options.

    In Ivy's defense, she has, of all the tracking projectiles, the one with the best speed/block disadvantage ratio, so she can sort of machine gun them at some characters. Cold's whole thing will be to block something like that then use reversal Trait to start charging, and against Atrocitus who's excess of -32 on his blood puddle that means he gets it quick. Aquaman I would argue is still better because he's so good at all ranges whereas Ivy has the one thing she does well and that's it, but there is merit to that as a counterpick.
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  • Nobus3r1Nobus3r1 #RiseUp? Joined: Posts: 5,281
    Nobus3r1 wrote: »
    If I was going to try to fight Captain Cold with that sort of approach I feel like Aquaman or Atrocitus would work better. I mean, I guess Ivy might do OK too but it seems like she's in a spot where there are better and/or easier options.

    In Ivy's defense, she has, of all the tracking projectiles, the one with the best speed/block disadvantage ratio, so she can sort of machine gun them at some characters. Cold's whole thing will be to block something like that then use reversal Trait to start charging, and against Atrocitus who's excess of -32 on his blood puddle that means he gets it quick. Aquaman I would argue is still better because he's so good at all ranges whereas Ivy has the one thing she does well and that's it, but there is merit to that as a counterpick.
    That's fair. I would generally say that anyone with better projectiles whether they track or not than Captain Cold represents an issue for the character. If I'm playing Harley or Starfire I don't really worry about running into Captain Cold and if I beat a Captain Cold with Scarecrow then I know that they aren't very good with the character.
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  • KingHippo42KingHippo42 Da King Joined: Posts: 1,231
    Nobus3r1 wrote: »
    That's fair. I would generally say that anyone with better projectiles whether they track or not than Captain Cold represents an issue for the character. If I'm playing Harley or Starfire I don't really worry about running into Captain Cold and if I beat a Captain Cold with Scarecrow then I know that they aren't very good with the character.

    Right, it's all about preventing Ice Grenade from entering the playing field. I've seen a lot of talk about how Scarecrow actually does really well, but I can't imagine a scenario, even with his range, where he can beat Ice Puddle + Ice Block into loading Ice Grenade. Scarecrow moves slow anyways, so once the Grenade is out, I imagine he can barely move to stop him from looping it over and over again.
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  • Nobus3r1Nobus3r1 #RiseUp? Joined: Posts: 5,281
    Nobus3r1 wrote: »
    That's fair. I would generally say that anyone with better projectiles whether they track or not than Captain Cold represents an issue for the character. If I'm playing Harley or Starfire I don't really worry about running into Captain Cold and if I beat a Captain Cold with Scarecrow then I know that they aren't very good with the character.

    Right, it's all about preventing Ice Grenade from entering the playing field. I've seen a lot of talk about how Scarecrow actually does really well, but I can't imagine a scenario, even with his range, where he can beat Ice Puddle + Ice Block into loading Ice Grenade. Scarecrow moves slow anyways, so once the Grenade is out, I imagine he can barely move to stop him from looping it over and over again.
    Anyone who's been telling you that Scarecrow does really well against Captain Cold has been lying to you and isn't your friend. His [Scarecrow] movement is too slow to stop Cold from charging trait and definitely too slow to contest him from re-charging once the snow globe is out. Teleport is in no way, shape or form an answer for any of that either. There are definitely characters that Scarecrow blows up *cough* Sub-Zero *cough* but Captain Cold is not one of those characters.
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  • KingHippo42KingHippo42 Da King Joined: Posts: 1,231
    Nobus3r1 wrote: »
    Anyone who's been telling you that Scarecrow does really well against Captain Cold has been lying to you and isn't your friend. His [Scarecrow] movement is too slow to stop Cold from charging trait and definitely too slow to contest him from re-charging once the snow globe is out. Teleport is in no way, shape or form an answer for any of that either. There are definitely characters that Scarecrow blows up *cough* Sub-Zero *cough* but Captain Cold is not one of those characters.

    Yeah, the discourse is pretty bad, I disagree with none of this. I think Scarecrow is decently strong, but the idea that he's this super dominant character with only a few bad matchups is not something I'm too keen on. His pressure is extremely good but I think his approach is still too weak to consider him incredibly strong in the game.

    Black Manta looks pretty cool. My chief concern for him is whether or not his d1 will combo into any of his launching specials, or if he can make a good blockstring from those. I also wonder if, like Hawkgirl, he will be able to make unique linking combos from his flight trait.
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  • Nobus3r1Nobus3r1 #RiseUp? Joined: Posts: 5,281
    Nobus3r1 wrote: »
    Anyone who's been telling you that Scarecrow does really well against Captain Cold has been lying to you and isn't your friend. His [Scarecrow] movement is too slow to stop Cold from charging trait and definitely too slow to contest him from re-charging once the snow globe is out. Teleport is in no way, shape or form an answer for any of that either. There are definitely characters that Scarecrow blows up *cough* Sub-Zero *cough* but Captain Cold is not one of those characters.

    Yeah, the discourse is pretty bad, I disagree with none of this. I think Scarecrow is decently strong, but the idea that he's this super dominant character with only a few bad matchups is not something I'm too keen on. His pressure is extremely good but I think his approach is still too weak to consider him incredibly strong in the game.

    Black Manta looks pretty cool. My chief concern for him is whether or not his d1 will combo into any of his launching specials, or if he can make a good blockstring from those. I also wonder if, like Hawkgirl, he will be able to make unique linking combos from his flight trait.
    In theory, get in and do Scarecrow things is viable against any character. In practice there are more than a few characters who are really good at sabotaging that plan at the 'get in' phase with most of those characters building sufficient meter to then undermine the 'do Scarecrow things' part of the plan if he does get in with pushblock or MB roll (see also: shot, Dead). To me it's actually a bit weird how in MB roll, a mechanic ostensibly added to evade zoning, has become a fairly integral tool of improved zoners.

    If he's like Hawkgirl I don't think we'll have to worry if his D1 combos into anything useful or what his blockstrings are because his mixup game will be too shit to matter.
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  • KingHippo42KingHippo42 Da King Joined: Posts: 1,231
    Nobus3r1 wrote: »
    In theory, get in and do Scarecrow things is viable against any character. In practice there are more than a few characters who are really good at sabotaging that plan at the 'get in' phase with most of those characters building sufficient meter to then undermine the 'do Scarecrow things' part of the plan if he does get in with pushblock or MB roll (see also: shot, Dead). To me it's actually a bit weird how in MB roll, a mechanic ostensibly added to evade zoning, has become a fairly integral tool of improved zoners.

    If he's like Hawkgirl I don't think we'll have to worry if his D1 combos into anything useful or what his blockstrings are because his mixup game will be too shit to matter.

    Yeah, I would want to roll out of the corner against Scarecrow too. I do think the best part of him is his d1, it has to be the very best in the game.

    Well, Hawkgirl is interesting. Not a great character, but definitely okay enough to do well if she could avoid a really bad matchup. In fact, PPJ got top 8 at Evo using solely Hawkgirl, and I think it wasn't necessarily just matchup inexperience, but how good a few of her moves were. Now it looks like Manta's grounded game is already way better than Hawkgirl's, but I don't think her not having a way to open up was necessarily her worst trait.

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  • Nobus3r1Nobus3r1 #RiseUp? Joined: Posts: 5,281
    Nobus3r1 wrote: »
    In theory, get in and do Scarecrow things is viable against any character. In practice there are more than a few characters who are really good at sabotaging that plan at the 'get in' phase with most of those characters building sufficient meter to then undermine the 'do Scarecrow things' part of the plan if he does get in with pushblock or MB roll (see also: shot, Dead). To me it's actually a bit weird how in MB roll, a mechanic ostensibly added to evade zoning, has become a fairly integral tool of improved zoners.

    If he's like Hawkgirl I don't think we'll have to worry if his D1 combos into anything useful or what his blockstrings are because his mixup game will be too shit to matter.

    Yeah, I would want to roll out of the corner against Scarecrow too. I do think the best part of him is his d1, it has to be the very best in the game.

    Well, Hawkgirl is interesting. Not a great character, but definitely okay enough to do well if she could avoid a really bad matchup. In fact, PPJ got top 8 at Evo using solely Hawkgirl, and I think it wasn't necessarily just matchup inexperience, but how good a few of her moves were. Now it looks like Manta's grounded game is already way better than Hawkgirl's, but I don't think her not having a way to open up was necessarily her worst trait.
    I would actually recommend pushblocking Fear-ferno. I also agree that his D1 is quit good as it's fast and cancels into every special he has. I might, despite the fact that it's slower, put Bane's D1 up there as well as that move reaches way further than you think.

    I feel like the startup of his trait is what's really going to make or break BM. If he has an air normal in the 5-7f startup range with a decent hitbox and his trait starts up reasonably quickly I could see his pressure being of the bootleg tri-dash variety which would likely be quit good.
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  • KingHippo42KingHippo42 Da King Joined: Posts: 1,231
    Nobus3r1 wrote: »
    I would actually recommend pushblocking Fear-ferno. I also agree that his D1 is quit good as it's fast and cancels into every special he has. I might, despite the fact that it's slower, put Bane's D1 up there as well as that move reaches way further than you think.

    I feel like the startup of his trait is what's really going to make or break BM. If he has an air normal in the 5-7f startup range with a decent hitbox and his trait starts up reasonably quickly I could see his pressure being of the bootleg tri-dash variety which would likely be quit good.

    Bane's is good, but I still have PTSD from the first game where it was insanely plus on block and he had a bunch of safe specials. He was the definition of derp.

    D1 tier list would probably be like:

    Scarecrow
    Grodd
    Supergirl
    Robin
    Atrocitus/Beetle in Scarab

    My guess is even if it's not the fastest startup, you will basically force people to guess missile or flight, both of which probably require a different reaction timing.
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  • Nobus3r1Nobus3r1 #RiseUp? Joined: Posts: 5,281
    Nobus3r1 wrote: »
    I would actually recommend pushblocking Fear-ferno. I also agree that his D1 is quit good as it's fast and cancels into every special he has. I might, despite the fact that it's slower, put Bane's D1 up there as well as that move reaches way further than you think.

    I feel like the startup of his trait is what's really going to make or break BM. If he has an air normal in the 5-7f startup range with a decent hitbox and his trait starts up reasonably quickly I could see his pressure being of the bootleg tri-dash variety which would likely be quit good.

    Bane's is good, but I still have PTSD from the first game where it was insanely plus on block and he had a bunch of safe specials. He was the definition of derp.

    D1 tier list would probably be like:

    Scarecrow
    Grodd
    Supergirl
    Robin
    Atrocitus/Beetle in Scarab

    My guess is even if it's not the fastest startup, you will basically force people to guess missile or flight, both of which probably require a different reaction timing.
    There's a Bane tech video floating around where from almost any range he can hit you with his D1, walk forward a bit and frame trap into basically anything. He's still pretty derp. Not so derp that I'm going to lose to the YOLO-ist of YOLO Banes of which I ran into 2 today. The secret to fighting YOLO Banes is to let them fuck themselves because they cannot for the life of them manage Venom cooldown properly. *insert themoreyouknow.jpeg*

    You D1 tier list looks about right to me. Isn't Braniac's also pretty good?
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  • KingHippo42KingHippo42 Da King Joined: Posts: 1,231
    Nobus3r1 wrote: »
    There's a Bane tech video floating around where from almost any range he can hit you with his D1, walk forward a bit and frame trap into basically anything. He's still pretty derp. Not so derp that I'm going to lose to the YOLO-ist of YOLO Banes of which I ran into 2 today. The secret to fighting YOLO Banes is to let them fuck themselves because they cannot for the life of them manage Venom cooldown properly. *insert themoreyouknow.jpeg*

    You D1 tier list looks about right to me. Isn't Braniac's also pretty good?

    I don't know if you know true derp until you've faced the might of Venom Double Punch and safe MB Venom Uppercut.

    Braniac is another one I put, especially since he has a secret version that goes super far and is low with the same speed.

    Lately I've found Robin to be a complete mystery to me. On paper, there are a lot of flaws to be seen, but also quite a few strengths:
    • Probably the best set of pure AA moves in the game, with big damage on them to boot, even meterless.
    • A tremendous, safe sweep that is almost guaranteed to land a lot because he has a threatening overhead string.
    • Can almost guarantee oki for himself with a knockdown into birdarang, forcing delayed getup
    • Big damage convert off of almost anything, thanks to buff to f3
    • Hit-confirmable d12 string that is pretty safe on block
    • Not much risk; very safe on most things
    • Pretty darn good wakeup move

    Like I said, to go with the good you gotta take the bad:
    • Horrible backwalk, but good forward walk. With average dashes, he will struggle to get around hard space control
    • Strange inconsistencies which can cause combo drops or awkward conversions
    • No real lows to threaten with, will have to use sweep quite a bit
    • Trait is not a real gamechanger, really can only add to damage or help him approach
    • Slower than average strings, which can open him up to faster characters
    • No way to force chip, so his pressure can be quite weak albeit safe
    • Only one meterless launcher, so he unless he lands d2 with blue trait cancel or f21b2, he will not get much damage meterless

    Add to all this that Hayatei, with a few exceptions, is placing everywhere he goes with just solo Robin, and I wonder if he's either better than we all think or people are just worse than I think. Really hard to say.
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  • Nobus3r1Nobus3r1 #RiseUp? Joined: Posts: 5,281
    I don't know if you know true derp until you've faced the might of Venom Double Punch and safe MB Venom Uppercut.
    I played Bane in Injustice 1 so I was the person doing that to people. In Injustice 2 though the Peoples Elbow is a sorry replica for Double-Punch and too many Banes become enamored with Raging Charge.
    Lately I've found Robin to be a complete mystery to me. On paper, there are a lot of flaws to be seen, but also quite a few strengths:
    Add to all this that Hayatei, with a few exceptions, is placing everywhere he goes with just solo Robin, and I wonder if he's either better than we all think or people are just worse than I think. Really hard to say.
    I feel like Robin is, right now, excelling for a lot of the same reasons that S1 Ken excelled in SFV. Namely input delay and having different/weird blockstun on his stuff compared to everyone else. For example, I know that Assassin's Strike is unsafe on block. The game is helpful in telling me this. Now, the number of Assassin Strikes that I've actually punished on block is a disappointingly low number. Until additional Robin players show up in some capacity I'm going to credit Hayatei for being good rather than him punching above his weight-class due to being carried by a strong character.
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  • KingHippo42KingHippo42 Da King Joined: Posts: 1,231
    edited September 10
    Nobus3r1 wrote: »
    I played Bane in Injustice 1 so I was the person doing that to people. In Injustice 2 though the Peoples Elbow is a sorry replica for Double-Punch and too many Banes become enamored with Raging Charge.

    grvoJ.gif

    I do love UltraDavid referring to Raging Charge as "Fool's Gold," that's an excellent summation of what it is
    Nobus3r1 wrote: »
    I feel like Robin is, right now, excelling for a lot of the same reasons that S1 Ken excelled in SFV. Namely input delay and having different/weird blockstun on his stuff compared to everyone else. For example, I know that Assassin's Strike is unsafe on block. The game is helpful in telling me this. Now, the number of Assassin Strikes that I've actually punished on block is a disappointingly low number. Until additional Robin players show up in some capacity I'm going to credit Hayatei for being good rather than him punching above his weight-class due to being carried by a strong character.

    Surely it can't be just that. Hayatei has been a consistent top player for almost two years now so I know he's a fine player, but, as I often say when Sonic Fox will win or place really high with a wacky character, he can't make up tools. There's gotta be something to Robin, cause he's beating people like Dragon even three months in. Obviously people will get better at blowing up his Sword Dance MB and Assassin's Charge, but I wonder if there's still more than meets the eye.
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  • Nobus3r1Nobus3r1 #RiseUp? Joined: Posts: 5,281
    I do love UltraDavid referring to Raging Charge as "Fool's Gold," that's an excellent summation of what it is
    With Raging Charge you either go to level 3 venom or you eat MB B3 all day against anyone with a pulse. You do RC once or twice to see if the other guy knows what to do against it but once they've proven they can handle it you can't just keep doing it. It's really not a very good move.
    Surely it can't be just that. Hayatei has been a consistent top player for almost two years now so I know he's a fine player, but, as I often say when Sonic Fox will win or place really high with a wacky character, he can't make up tools. There's gotta be something to Robin, cause he's beating people like Dragon even three months in. Obviously people will get better at blowing up his Sword Dance MB and Assassin's Charge, but I wonder if there's still more than meets the eye.
    By all accounts Robin isn't very hard to play so the fact that there's only one person putting in work with the character leads me to give more credit to the player than the character. Other than having pretty good range and safety there's really nothing that stands out as being outstanding about Robin to me.

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  • KingHippo42KingHippo42 Da King Joined: Posts: 1,231
    edited September 10
    Nobus3r1 wrote: »
    With Raging Charge you either go to level 3 venom or you eat MB B3 all day against anyone with a pulse. You do RC once or twice to see if the other guy knows what to do against it but once they've proven they can handle it you can't just keep doing it. It's really not a very good move.

    I will give it props for being annoying as shit to jump over sometimes. At least in this game it's fairly punishable on block; IGAU it was pretty low negative with big pushback
    Nobus3r1 wrote: »
    By all accounts Robin isn't very hard to play so the fact that there's only one person putting in work with the character leads me to give more credit to the player than the character. Other than having pretty good range and safety there's really nothing that stands out as being outstanding about Robin to me.

    I don't think any character is really hard to play as far as doing what needs to be done, but we've seen it before where characters who don't play at what the game favors take awhile to sort of flesh out. We saw this with Flash and DS and Lobo and other characters in IGAU, who had low representation despite being placed fairly high in most tier lists. This is more just Fuudo for thought than anything, I would not be shocked if Robin turned out to be pretty mediocre.
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  • Nobus3r1Nobus3r1 #RiseUp? Joined: Posts: 5,281
    I will give it props for being annoying as shit to jump over sometimes. At least in this game it's fairly punishable on block; IGAU it was pretty low negative with big pushback
    There are still some characters who have trouble doing much about it if they don't have meter. Hell, even with meter it's IMO sometimes worth it to go for the MD B3/F3 in order to bait the lvl. 3 Venom.
    I don't think any character is really hard to play as far as doing what needs to be done, but we've seen it before where characters who don't play at what the game favors take awhile to sort of flesh out. We saw this with Flash and DS and Lobo and other characters in IGAU, who had low representation despite being placed fairly high in most tier lists. This is more just Fuudo for thought than anything, I would not be shocked if Robin turned out to be pretty mediocre.
    Whether I'm playing Scarecrow, Harley or Bane I don't, as long as the ping is <50ms, feel especially threatened by Robin. Scarecrow out-spaces and out-damages Robin. Harley can zone him fairly easily. Bane can struggle a bit because Robin can put a lot of hits out quickly to negate armor but there's a decent damage discrepancy between them.
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  • KingHippo42KingHippo42 Da King Joined: Posts: 1,231
    I wonder if Manta will be available early Tuesday morning. Want to try him out before I go to work. I want to see how good the mixup between doing missiles and flight on block will be.
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  • Nobus3r1Nobus3r1 #RiseUp? Joined: Posts: 5,281
    No idea. He seems interesting enough but not really my sort of character. I'm more curious how Hellboy is going to play and, based on rumors and innuendo pertaining to her inclusion in the game, how Enchantress is going to play.
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  • KingHippo42KingHippo42 Da King Joined: Posts: 1,231
    I hope Hellboy has a stalling gun move. That's my only hope. I'll give credit to the crew at NRS, they are usually wizards at making characters who I would think would have no chance of being unique or cool into something neat, so bring on Enchantress.
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  • Nobus3r1Nobus3r1 #RiseUp? Joined: Posts: 5,281
    I hope Hellboy has a stalling gun move. That's my only hope. I'll give credit to the crew at NRS, they are usually wizards at making characters who I would think would have no chance of being unique or cool into something neat, so bring on Enchantress.
    A stalling gun move? So kind of like Joker? That's no good. I'm mostly interested in Enchantress because that character was the lone ray of light in the train wreck of a movie that was 'Suicide Squad'.
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