SFV Matchup Chart. S2 Boxer vs Guile; Urien vs Gief; Ibuki vs Sim; Ryu vs Vega; Juri vs FANG

DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo systemJoined: Posts: 56,280 mod
edited February 25 in Street Fighter V
Alright FINALLY going to get the ball rolling with this matchup chart thing. Wanted to wait for the new character to be revealed and generally get a chance to really think about the matchups for myself so I can have a starting point to conjecture with everyone else.

Gonna lay some ground rules here so it doesn't turn into the SFV Lounge 2 like the balance thread did. If you MUST talk about the things below, please TAKE IT TO THE LOUNGE. It will not be tolerated here.

Please don't get into stupid ass SFIV vs SFV wars or whatever wars you wanna get into. 3rd Strike vs SFIV lasted long enough, SFIV vs SFV doesn't need to last anywhere near as long. Don't bring up other SF games unless you just need to make a pure observance of something between the games. We don't need pages of which SF game is great for you or which one is giving you growing pains and hurting your relationship with your friends and family.

Please refrain from overly positive or negative talk about the game in general. If SFV has saved your life, that's great. Don't need to know that. SFV is killing what makes SF fundamental for you? Great, don't need to know that. This thread is for objectively talking about matchups and strategies for the game. It's not meant to be a diary for your SF shit. That's what the lounge is for.

Please also keep large lists of your ideas for improvements for the balance to the improvements thread or the lounge. Theoretical added balance changes generally just derail discussion on what is actually going on with the game and generally get into unnecessary back and forth conversations that don't really explain the current meta. Bringing up a thing or two that needs to be touched up for a character is ok, but we don't need long ass lists and discussions about things that aren't within SFV's competitive reality.



You have your warning.
There will be a VERY LOW tolerance policy for the shit above. It derails threads like this way too easily so it's not going to be put up with. General requests to fix things if you are messing up will be forwarded. If not, mods will have to get involved.



Other than that, hope to get some good discussion and hope we'll be able to keep up with everything since we'll be getting new characters pretty regularly throughout the life of the game.



I decided the games been out long enough and since there hasn't been a lot of matchup based tiers going on about the game on different sites, might as well do it. Especially since people believe matchups bring out the overall strength of a character better than just conjuring strengths and weaknesses.

@LordWilliam1234 posted up a mock up chart of matchups that he will help us put together once everyone is done conjecturing.


Basically what I'm looking for is volunteers to discuss and analyze the matchups for specific characters. People who play similar characters can have a meeting in their character thread or just PM each other and discuss the matchup numbers. Then compare the numbers with people who play the other characters and come to a hopeful common ground to make a list.

I won't COMPLETELY disregard the DLC characters, although I think it'll probably be easier to come up with DLC data for Alex and Guile than say for Boxer, Ibuki or Juri who are still really really fresh. The idea will be to come up with a list for the characters that have been around since launch or soon after launch and then we can always go back over the DLC characters as more time goes. Better to at least keep the discussion and matchup analyzing open for them them to just bar them from discussion I feel.



I'll make a list of each character and people can post and volunteer to put their names up as as an analyst. When most of the list is filled with a decent amount of players people can conjecture and come up with numbers and reports on different matchups for their characters.




Alex: @Hawkingbird @serpentaurus

Balrog: @Plaid_Unicorn @TheCrimsonPugilist

Birdie: @Hawkingbird

Cammy: @Necrotrophic @Ramma @ShinLad

Chun Li: @DevilJin 01 @Dime_x @Froztey

Dhalsim: @Cheech Wizard @Marmalade_Jones

F.A.N.G: @Cheech Wizard

Guile: @Pertho

Ibuki: @DevilJin 01 @serpentaurus

Juri: @Trife88 @eiSH

Karin: @Trife88

Ken: @LoyalSol @LordWilliam1234

Laura: @OceanSalt @Los, @Tiers4Fears, @melflomil

M. Bison: @Plaid_Unicorn @Zeniside

Nash: @otter

Necalli: @Muttonman

R. Mika: @Trife88

Rashid:

Ryu: @Highlandfireball

Urien (N/A):

Vega: @Rugalitarian @Veserius @serpentaurus

Zangief: @LoyalSol @Mesenkomaha see @Slaynman @Marsh_D_Teach
Post edited by DevilJin 01 on

Ain't nothin, Capcom's ruthless still producin.  Cut em a check or find yoself toothless.  Keep it shill with no confusin.  Niggas say I'm shill...they ain't hard I can prove it YEEEAH


«13456

Comments

  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 9,517
    I don't think I'm the most skilled or experienced Laura player here and I don't have a keen feeling for the difference between a 5.5-4.5 and a 6-4 but I'll try to help. Maybe @Los, @Tiers4Fears, @melflomil or @Maryokutai can back me up.
    [SFV] Laura, Vega [3S] Alex, Ken
    [Xrd] Leo [BBCF] Bullet
    [UNIEL] Orie [T7] Claudio
    [MvCI] Hawkeye/Thanos (Space?)
  • NecrotrophicNecrotrophic Isn't a communist. Joined: Posts: 5,906
    We should clarify if we use .5 notation up front.

    @Muttonman for necalli
    @Ramma @ShinLad for additional cammy input
    Northeast PA
    570 Necro
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 56,280 mod
    edited August 2016
    @OceanSalt Ok cool. If you could conjecture with them or bring them here for some matchup numbers that'd be cool

    We should clarify if we use .5 notation up front.

    @Muttonman for necalli
    @Ramma @ShinLad for additional cammy input


    I'll clear that up. Generally I hear people don't like the .5 stuff, but we'll see if there's other opinions.

    Ain't nothin, Capcom's ruthless still producin.  Cut em a check or find yoself toothless.  Keep it shill with no confusin.  Niggas say I'm shill...they ain't hard I can prove it YEEEAH


  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 9,517
    I don't have any specific argument in favour or against .5 notations. The only thing I see is that at this stage of the game 6-4 might be the worst possible MU and if you can't use .5 they will all be either 5-5 or 6-4.
    [SFV] Laura, Vega [3S] Alex, Ken
    [Xrd] Leo [BBCF] Bullet
    [UNIEL] Orie [T7] Claudio
    [MvCI] Hawkeye/Thanos (Space?)
  • NecrotrophicNecrotrophic Isn't a communist. Joined: Posts: 5,906
    Whenever I see 6.5 I'm just like, how is that different than 7-3?
    Northeast PA
    570 Necro
  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 9,517
    Well yeah, it makes sense only if we don't get past 6-4.
    [SFV] Laura, Vega [3S] Alex, Ken
    [Xrd] Leo [BBCF] Bullet
    [UNIEL] Orie [T7] Claudio
    [MvCI] Hawkeye/Thanos (Space?)
  • NecrotrophicNecrotrophic Isn't a communist. Joined: Posts: 5,906
    OceanSalt wrote: »
    Well yeah, it makes sense only if we don't get past 6-4.

    There have been many people indicating there's a few 7-3s.

    I've seen respectable fangs say cammy beats him 7-3. I can see it.

    There's also gief sim which I've heard people I respect on both sides say it's 7-3.
    Northeast PA
    570 Necro
  • AceKombatAceKombat (́◕◞౪◟◕‵) ”WINNERS DON’T USE ALMIGHTY.” Joined: Posts: 2,050
    Is it alright if I can also add in for Ken input? Pretty sure @MochaLatte would be good at this too.
    With all the hope combined... there can be a chance in SFV that Ken can, one day, walk again. #TeamWheelchair
    If interested in SFEX2+ matchmaking: http://steamcommunity.com/groups/SFEX2P
    CFN: AceKombat Steam: xAceKombatx
  • HawkingbirdHawkingbird I am thou...thou art I Joined: Posts: 26,014
    I've never done analysis before. Experience and how I feel about match-ups is all I can offer. I don't think I can give a match-up a numerical value.
    PSN: Hawkingbird
    FC: 0834-1564-0151
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/runawayavenger
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 56,280 mod
    edited August 2016
    I'll let LordWilliam make a decision on the .5 or no .5 thing. Once we get confirmation we'll really get things rolling.

    Wherever you guys wanna discuss the matchups and then bring the info here is fine. Lord William and I can help work on final decisions for certain matchups if there is an issue.


    Here's the mock up list that he originally made. Of course it isn't a realistic list.
    NeY1VbW.png

    Ain't nothin, Capcom's ruthless still producin.  Cut em a check or find yoself toothless.  Keep it shill with no confusin.  Niggas say I'm shill...they ain't hard I can prove it YEEEAH


  • otterotter CFN: otter- Joined: Posts: 4,650
    edited August 2016
    It's hard for me to not use .5 it seems to make a difference in most matchups, but I will change it if need be

    simply my own opinion

    Nash vs Rashid 5.5-4.5
    Nash vs Mika 5-5
    Nash vs Chun Li 5-5
    Nash vs Ryu 4.5-5.5
    Nash vs Ken 5.5-4.5
    Nash vs Cammy 4-6
    Nash vs Vega 4.5-5.5
    Nash vs Necalli 4-6
    Nash vs Laura 4-6
    Nash vs Zangief 7-3
    Nash vs Karin 4.5-5.5
    Nash vs Nash 5-5
    Nash vs Bison 6-4
    Nash vs Birdie 6-4
    Nash vs Dhalsim 6-4
    Nash vs Fang 5.5-4.5
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 56,280 mod
    That's fine waiting for confirmation. If we don't go with .5's we'll just make those 5 5s.

    Ain't nothin, Capcom's ruthless still producin.  Cut em a check or find yoself toothless.  Keep it shill with no confusin.  Niggas say I'm shill...they ain't hard I can prove it YEEEAH


  • DaemosDaemos Queen Bitch of the Universe Joined: Posts: 9,557 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    I'll let LordWilliam make a decision on the .5 or no .5 thing. Once we get confirmation we'll really get things rolling.

    Wherever you guys wanna discuss the matchups and then bring the info here is fine. Lord William and I can help work on final decisions for certain matchups if there is an issue.


    Here's the mock up list that he originally made. Of course it isn't a realistic list.
    NeY1VbW.png

    Dictator is last. This is realistic enough. #BuffBison #MakeBisonGreatAgain
  • LoyalSolLoyalSol Drunken Akuma Joined: Posts: 6,905
    edited August 2016
    I'll try giving my list for Ken

    Advantaged: Mika, Dhalsim, Guile, Laura, Birdie, Rashid
    Even: Nash, Chun, Cammy, Necalli, Zangief, Karin
    Disadvantaged: Vega, Bison, Ryu

    Unsure about: Fang, Ibuki, Balrog, Juri

    You can list those as 6-4 for right now as I'm not completely 100% on these match ups being horrendous, but the ones I would say are the closest to a 7-3 is Ken vs Dhalsim and the closest to a 3-7 match up is Vega. Fang is one I'm not completely sure how to weight since Fang is my secondary at the moment and the amount of stuff I am finding with him in addition to what Xian is finding with him makes me thing we haven't really seen that match in full just yet.
    Under stress you will not rise to your expectations, you will fall to your level of training.
  • MesenkomahaMesenkomaha Joined: Posts: 579
    Wow I am honored that you tagged me in this Jin. I haven't been playing very much for tje past month so I will comment on my matchup thoughts, but they may reflect an older meta.

    I'd love to see @Slaynman and @Marsh_D_Teach comment here and give their perspective.
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 56,280 mod
    edited August 2016
    Wow I am honored that you tagged me in this Jin. I haven't been playing very much for tje past month so I will comment on my matchup thoughts, but they may reflect an older meta.
    .

    Well you're the only Zangief main that I know on the forum and you play pretty well. Let's see if the other guys help come through.

    Ain't nothin, Capcom's ruthless still producin.  Cut em a check or find yoself toothless.  Keep it shill with no confusin.  Niggas say I'm shill...they ain't hard I can prove it YEEEAH


  • ZenisideZeniside Joined: Posts: 2,987
    edited August 2016
    I do not think I am skilled enough to provide analysis about Bison's match-ups.
  • LosLos Joined: Posts: 785
    I've never done analysis before. Experience and how I feel about match-ups is all I can offer. I don't think I can give a match-up a numerical value.

    Same.
    I posted a list in the laura's sub forum. We can discuss it there and we'll come back with some numbers
  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 9,517
    Here's the mock up list that he originally made. Of course it isn't a realistic list.
    NeY1VbW.png

    As I said previously, I kinda agree with most of LW's numbers. The only ones I would change are:
    Laura vs Nash - I agree with otter that this is definitely not in Nash's favour. Basically every non-grappler character without reversal is highly abusable for Laura and Nash is no exception. His fireball game is nowhere near a threat as Ryu's or Guile's. I'd say it's a 5-5 at least, but I could agree about the 6-4 for her.
    Laura vs Chun - this might be a 3-7, if anything to stress that it's her worst MU and the only one where you can feel real despair no matter who you're fighting. If we don't wanna go that far then Karin, Ken and Ryu should become 4.5-5.5.
    Laura vs Cammy - not sure about the 5-5. Cammy wins the neutral hands down, her DP is always a real threat and if she decides to AA you consistently you're kinda screwed. The only thing Laura has going for her are health, stun and a few ways to stop the divekick game. I'd like to hear the opinion of Cammy mainers about that.
    Laura vs Vega - 5.5-4.5 or 6-4 (I don't think any Vega mainer would disagree about that)
    Laura vs Gief - 4-6. Unless you lame him out with fireballs Laura can't have any real advantage here. With many of her normals and specials making her walk forward, whiffing any button will make her enter the L SPD range. The oki of the two characters is similar minus the overhead, but Gief's grabs are faster, have much bigger range and deal more damage/stun so landing them and getting the setup that follows is much better for him than for you.
    [SFV] Laura, Vega [3S] Alex, Ken
    [Xrd] Leo [BBCF] Bullet
    [UNIEL] Orie [T7] Claudio
    [MvCI] Hawkeye/Thanos (Space?)
  • RammaRamma Team Blockstring Joined: Posts: 1,511
    We should clarify if we use .5 notation up front.

    @Muttonman for necalli
    @Ramma @ShinLad for additional cammy input

    I'll partake. I enjoy stuff like this. Just let me knwo when we discussing :P
    PSN/XBL: RammaCricket | CFN: BS_Ramma
    SFV: Cammy/Necalli | Fun Subs: Ryu, Alex, Gief
    USFIV: Cody | Alt: Zangief
  • Trife88Trife88 SFV is going to destroy us. Joined: Posts: 7,505
    Reserving my spot for Juri since she has my eye right now.

    I still need to play a couple of match ups against people with a brain.
    Street Fighter V is the best game of our generation.
  • LordWilliam1234LordWilliam1234 Permanent Character Crisis Joined: Posts: 21,538
    With how close match-ups are in this game I'm fine with using .5 notations, unless we start getting an influx of 7-3s (which I don't see happening).
    PSN/Steam/NNID/CFN: LordWilliam1234
    SFV: Ed, Guile(?)
    Smash 4: Toon Link
    Pokken: Braixen
    Guilty Gear: Ky, Dizzy
    Blazblue: Kokonoe, Makoto
    Smash 4 Frame Data
    SFV Frame Data
    SFV Combo Tier List (Season 2.1)

    VGFC - Worlds Collide (Fan-made fighter made by me)
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 56,280 mod
    @TheCrimsonPugilist Looking for Balrog input

    With how close match-ups are in this game I'm fine with using .5 notations, unless we start getting an influx of 7-3s (which I don't see happening).

    Ok cool. Since you'll be making the final chart and others seem to be in favor of the .5 markings, we'll go with it unless there's a big backlash. I say let's just hope people really think about the matchups before they go with the .5 stuff.


    Is everybody else good with the .5 markings?
    If so post up and confirm.

    Ain't nothin, Capcom's ruthless still producin.  Cut em a check or find yoself toothless.  Keep it shill with no confusin.  Niggas say I'm shill...they ain't hard I can prove it YEEEAH


  • LordWilliam1234LordWilliam1234 Permanent Character Crisis Joined: Posts: 21,538
    Oh yeah, can't forget @Trouble Brewing for Dhalsim. (Hope all's well by the way, sir)
    PSN/Steam/NNID/CFN: LordWilliam1234
    SFV: Ed, Guile(?)
    Smash 4: Toon Link
    Pokken: Braixen
    Guilty Gear: Ky, Dizzy
    Blazblue: Kokonoe, Makoto
    Smash 4 Frame Data
    SFV Frame Data
    SFV Combo Tier List (Season 2.1)

    VGFC - Worlds Collide (Fan-made fighter made by me)
  • AceKombatAceKombat (́◕◞౪◟◕‵) ”WINNERS DON’T USE ALMIGHTY.” Joined: Posts: 2,050
    edited August 2016
    Personal thoughts for Ken if it's going with the .5 system:

    6-4:
    • Dhalsim
    • Guile
    • Laura

    5.5-4.5:
    • Birdie
    • Boxer
    • Ibuki
    • Juri
    • R. Mika
    • Rashid
    • Zangief

    5-5:
    • Alex
    • Cammy
    • Dictator
    • F.A.N.G
    • Karin
    • Nash
    • Necalli
    • Ryu

    4.5-5.5:
    • Chun-Li
    • Claw

    Not 100% certain placements for me atm are Claw, Ibuki, Juri, and Laura.
    With all the hope combined... there can be a chance in SFV that Ken can, one day, walk again. #TeamWheelchair
    If interested in SFEX2+ matchmaking: http://steamcommunity.com/groups/SFEX2P
    CFN: AceKombat Steam: xAceKombatx
  • MuttonmanMuttonman Joined: Posts: 2,840
    Going to have to count me out of this; I haven't touched the game since the last Xanadu monthly and been utterly burned out on it so my Necalli matchup knowledge is out of date.
  • TheCrimsonPugilistTheCrimsonPugilist Pugilist Enthusiast Joined: Posts: 95
    edited August 2016
    I don't really have enough MU experience w/ the rest of the cast as Balrog yet, but when I get enough, I'd be glad to leave my input on them.
    "Giving your all is the mark of a true champion."

    Steam /Youtube/Twitch: TheCrimsonPugilist
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    SFV: Ed, Balrog, Guile
    USFIV: Dudley, Fei Long, Cody
    TTT2: Steve Fox & Jin Kazama, Steve Fox & Miguel, Lee Chaolan & Baek Doo San
    KI: Fulgore, Spinal, TJ Combo
    SF3:3S: Dudley, Ryu, Akuma
    UNIEL: Mika, Akatsuki, Gordeau
    KOFXIV: Nelson, Hein, Geese
    GGREV: Johnny
    Now you block bitch!
  • NecrotrophicNecrotrophic Isn't a communist. Joined: Posts: 5,906
    Cammy favorables:

    Fang 6.5-3.5

    6-4
    Laura 6-4 (could be 6.5-3.5 but I'm not sure. I don't see what laura has in this matchup. No dp, dive kicks are easy against her and cammy has better neutral)

    Guile
    Sim
    Bison
    Alex
    Vega
    Balrog
    Nash

    Even:
    Karin
    Chun
    Ken
    Necalli
    R.mika
    Rashid
    Juri/ibuki (no idea)

    Bad 4-6
    Gief
    Birdie
    Ryu
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  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 56,280 mod
    Here's my evaluations for Chun and Ibuki


    CHUN VS
    Alex: 6
    Balrog 5
    Birdie 6
    Cammy 5
    Chun Li 5
    Dhalsim 5
    F.A.N.G 5
    Guile 5
    Ibuki 5.5
    Juri 5
    Karin 5
    Ken 5
    Laura 6.5
    M. Bison 6
    Nash 4.5
    Necalli 5
    R. Mika 5
    Rashid 5.5
    Ryu 5
    Urien N/A
    Vega 5
    Zangief 6


    IBUKI VS
    Alex 4.5
    Balrog 4
    Birdie 5
    Cammy 5
    Chun Li 4.5
    Dhalsim 5.5
    F.A.N.G 5
    Guile 5
    Ibuki 5
    Juri 5
    Karin 4.5
    Ken 4
    Laura 5
    M. Bison 5.5
    Nash 5
    Necalli 4.5
    R. Mika 4.5
    Rashid 5
    Ryu 4.5
    Urien N/A
    Vega 4.5
    Zangief 4.5

    Ain't nothin, Capcom's ruthless still producin.  Cut em a check or find yoself toothless.  Keep it shill with no confusin.  Niggas say I'm shill...they ain't hard I can prove it YEEEAH


  • VeseriusVeserius Hold Down Back Joined: Posts: 11,490
    edited August 2016
    Whenever I see 6.5 I'm just like, how is that different than 7-3?

    You're less likely to lose a 7-3 than a 6.5-3.5

    more data points lead to a better understanding of whats going on.

    With less data points you start saying characters have an "easy" or "hard" 6-4 and it's just ?????

    @DevilJin 01 I'd have @Windalfr on here for like 4 characters before I had myself on here once.
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  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 9,517
    Whenever I see 6.5 I'm just like, how is that different than 7-3?
    Cammy favorables:

    Fang 6.5-3.5

    futuramafry.jpg
    [SFV] Laura, Vega [3S] Alex, Ken
    [Xrd] Leo [BBCF] Bullet
    [UNIEL] Orie [T7] Claudio
    [MvCI] Hawkeye/Thanos (Space?)
  • MochaLatteMochaLatte Joined: Posts: 1,130
    edited August 2016
    Honestly I can't really give any match-up numbers, I'm constantly running into new shit everyday and a lot of what determines my success pretty much boils down to muscle memory.

    I can give my analysis of Ken vs Ryu at least

    . A lot of ryu's spacing is predicated by ken's st.hk, the threat of getting crush countered out of a fireball makes the ryu want to stand outside of the range completely or within the range where he can punish it on block.

    . If we're going purely by grounded normals/footsies, ken's whiff punish game and the reward he yields will outclass ryu. Ken's st.lk into DP can be practically applied to wreck ryu's low forward and just about any whiffed medium button while ryu doesn't have that luxury. Ken's st.mk is also a strong deterrent for the ryu player to use normals.

    . I noticed that against the higher level ryu's they will rarely try to engage in a footsie battle and resort to their fireball game, I tend to get hit when the ryu is elusive and makes me think that he's engaged in footsies when in reality it was a bait for him to back up and chuck plasma as a poke in my face again. It's difficult for ken to contest the fireballs with his own... Actually my fireball game sucks so I can't really say much here. What I can say is that the threat of ryu's forward dash in combination with his fireball can be tough to deal with if you plan on trying to walk and block him into the corner. A lot of this is due to my playstyle, I'm basically playing him the same way I played Dudley in sf4 coming into sf5 with little shoto experience. I am willing to eat an anti air or two if I can make the ryu player more cautious with his fireball game to engage in footsies. I do believe that ryu's fireball/forward dash gameplan will become less effective should capcom decide to fix the input delay.

    . A lot of the meta also revolves around very tight spacial awareness, ryu's jumping short can be especially weird since delaying a dp for the auto-correct will fail often should he go for the cross-up. I don't have this habit down, but the way around it is to input an actual cross-cut motion to get the auto-correct. His jumping tatsu can make your dp whiff as well. This means that it's crucial to develop the muscle memory/spacial awareness to know when to resort to cr.hp to anti air and when to cross cut. The corner game is awkward too, it's important to be able to neutral jump air-to-air in order to prevent the ryu player from coward coptering out of the corner, which I admit I'm free to but at least I know it's something to work on. Even with an auto-correct dp, it barely does any damage and you've given up the corner hence me plugging the air-to-air.

    Summarized, ken can usually convert more out of the footsie and anti air game with the right play but ryu has multiple ways to throw the ken player off with burst movement and elusive jump ins. If I had to label this match with a number I would call it mostly a 5-5 for now.
  • NecrotrophicNecrotrophic Isn't a communist. Joined: Posts: 5,906
    OceanSalt wrote: »
    Whenever I see 6.5 I'm just like, how is that different than 7-3?
    Cammy favorables:

    Fang 6.5-3.5

    futuramafry.jpg

    I guess I should make it 6-4 to be more consistent.
    And laura "could" be 6-4 as well. The other 6-4s should be 5.5

    I'd say gief and birdie are clear 4-6 and ryu might be 5.5 in his fav
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  • LoyalSolLoyalSol Drunken Akuma Joined: Posts: 6,905
    MochaLatte wrote: »
    Honestly I can't really give any match-up numbers, I'm constantly running into new shit everyday and a lot of what determines my success pretty much boils down to muscle memory.

    I can give my analysis of Ken vs Ryu at least

    . A lot of ryu's spacing is predicated by ken's st.hk, the threat of getting crush countered out of a fireball makes the ryu want to stand outside of the range completely or within the range where he can punish it on block.

    . If we're going purely by grounded normals/footsies, ken's whiff punish game and the reward he yields will outclass ryu. Ken's st.lk into DP can be practically applied to wreck ryu's low forward and just about any whiffed medium button while ryu doesn't have that luxury. Ken's st.mk is also a strong deterrent for the ryu player to use normals.

    . I noticed that against the higher level ryu's they will rarely try to engage in a footsie battle and resort to their fireball game, I tend to get hit when the ryu is elusive and makes me think that he's engaged in footsies when in reality it was a bait for him to back up and chuck plasma as a poke in my face again. It's difficult for ken to contest the fireballs with his own... Actually my fireball game sucks so I can't really say much here. What I can say is that the threat of ryu's forward dash in combination with his fireball can be tough to deal with if you plan on trying to walk and block him into the corner. A lot of this is due to my playstyle, I'm basically playing him the same way I played Dudley in sf4 coming into sf5 with little shoto experience. I am willing to eat an anti air or two if I can make the ryu player more cautious with his fireball game to engage in footsies. I do believe that ryu's fireball/forward dash gameplan will become less effective should capcom decide to fix the input delay.

    . A lot of the meta also revolves around very tight spacial awareness, ryu's jumping short can be especially weird since delaying a dp for the auto-correct will fail often should he go for the cross-up. I don't have this habit down, but the way around it is to input an actual cross-cut motion to get the auto-correct. His jumping tatsu can make your dp whiff as well. This means that it's crucial to develop the muscle memory/spacial awareness to know when to resort to cr.hp to anti air and when to cross cut. The corner game is awkward too, it's important to be able to neutral jump air-to-air in order to prevent the ryu player from coward coptering out of the corner, which I admit I'm free to but at least I know it's something to work on. Even with an auto-correct dp, it barely does any damage and you've given up the corner hence me plugging the air-to-air.

    Summarized, ken can usually convert more out of the footsie and anti air game with the right play but ryu has multiple ways to throw the ken player off with burst movement and elusive jump ins. If I had to label this match with a number I would call it mostly a 5-5 for now.

    I wouldn't say Ryu has to play far back since his s.LK punish Ken's s.HK on block unless Ken spaces it absolutely perfect. I think Ryu punishes the s.HK better than almost anyone else.

    The optimal range for Ken's s.HK is at a range where it is pretty obvious he is going to s.HK.
    Under stress you will not rise to your expectations, you will fall to your level of training.
  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 9,517
    I see Laura vs Cammy as a 4-6 but no more than that. The MU really isn't that different from Ryu or Ken except for the better neutral and the lack of fireballs for Cammy. Her linearity and the low health/stun make the MU relatively unstressful.
    The only 3-7 for Laura is Chun and potentially Guile (I'm not sure though, what can he really do besides throwing booms all day?)
    [SFV] Laura, Vega [3S] Alex, Ken
    [Xrd] Leo [BBCF] Bullet
    [UNIEL] Orie [T7] Claudio
    [MvCI] Hawkeye/Thanos (Space?)
  • FrozteyFroztey Break the Cuffs Joined: Posts: 9,111 mod
    I can throw some shit in here, I'm an Alex main. Just throw any matches I feel are tilted in favour of the opposing character.

    Alex vs. Cammy, 4-6

    Alex vs. Laura, 4-6

    Alex vs. Mika, 4-6

    Alex vs. Chun-Li, 4.5-5.5

    Alex vs. Nash, 4.5-5.5

    Alex vs. Vega, 4.5-5.5

    Alex vs. Birdie, 4.5-5.5

    Not many others I feel are bad enough to warrant mentioning. Those would be his worst IMO though.
    SFV - I drop everyone after a week
    Sometimes I upload stuff - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtQESJOpYAW3RQ_ag9q9T_g
  • NecrotrophicNecrotrophic Isn't a communist. Joined: Posts: 5,906
    OceanSalt wrote: »
    I see Laura vs Cammy as a 4-6 but no more than that. The MU really isn't that different from Ryu or Ken except for the better neutral and the lack of fireballs for Cammy. Her linearity and the low health/stun make the MU relatively unstressful.
    The only 3-7 for Laura is Chun and potentially Guile (I'm not sure though, what can he really do besides throwing booms all day?)

    My thing is... What does laura have to handle dive kick? On wakeup she's pretty free too.

    Sure cammy is linear but it doesnt matter in this mu. She always gets in for free and she doesn't even need to be in if she doesn't want to be.

    When she's in, cammy has great pressure. I don't mind throwing her every time because I will get in again if I want to be in. But, eventually laura has to stop taking throws and Cammy's frame traps and ability to blow up walk back/stand blocking is incredible.

    I just don't see what laura has to compete with. I'm not scared of Laura's offense at all
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  • Plaid_UnicornPlaid_Unicorn Camron should have won an Oscar for Paid in Full Joined: Posts: 9,930
    edited August 2016
    I've never really done a matchup analysis chart before, I will give it a stab but just know I don't know what I am doing.

    Also I won't do one for Balrog, I am def not the right person for that character. I've been focusing mostly on Bison so I can take a stab there but again I don't think it would be much help.

    Also if I might add there are far more knowledgeable bisons out there, they just stick to character threads. I guess I can start the discussion there and compile the list and bring it back here. I will be the liason.
    Just because I lost... doesn't mean I was defeated
    "Say it loud... I main Rog and I'm proud!!!!" - Plaid Unicorn
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  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 9,517
    edited August 2016
    @Froztey really 4-6 against Laura? What does it make you say so?
    OceanSalt wrote: »
    I see Laura vs Cammy as a 4-6 but no more than that. The MU really isn't that different from Ryu or Ken except for the better neutral and the lack of fireballs for Cammy. Her linearity and the low health/stun make the MU relatively unstressful.
    The only 3-7 for Laura is Chun and potentially Guile (I'm not sure though, what can he really do besides throwing booms all day?)

    My thing is... What does laura have to handle dive kick? On wakeup she's pretty free too.

    Sure cammy is linear but it doesnt matter in this mu. She always gets in for free and she doesn't even need to be in if she doesn't want to be.

    When she's in, cammy has great pressure. I don't mind throwing her every time because I will get in again if I want to be in. But, eventually laura has to stop taking throws and Cammy's frame traps and ability to blow up walk back/stand blocking is incredible.

    I just don't see what laura has to compete with. I'm not scared of Laura's offense at all

    Well, for the same reason I don't care about Cammy's pressure because the best she can do is press buttons until she tries to throw, and unlike Laura she has no move that gets her into throw range without walking. She also has no overhead and if she gets too happy about frame traps you can just V-Reversal her and knock her down; then you're in a situation when Cammy can either DP or not, and one bad guess may hit her really hard, unlike Laura who can still eat 1 or 2 throws and be fine.
    As for your question against divekicks, Laura can use anyone of her AAs for the close ones and the fireball for the ones from afar, but most of the time you wouldn't bother because she gets so little off her DKs. And if Cammy has no meter and she's not in range for her V-Skill she really has no choice but to respect Laura's fireballs.

    Again, it's really the neutral and the DP that make the difference, but the damage Cammy can deal for winning neutral is nothing compared to Ryu or Ken, which both also have much more stamina. Just look at K-Brad's match against Akram, his long sequences of successful pressure got blown up each time by a few button presses, and when Laura's in VT the stun can quickly stack up on Cammy.
    [SFV] Laura, Vega [3S] Alex, Ken
    [Xrd] Leo [BBCF] Bullet
    [UNIEL] Orie [T7] Claudio
    [MvCI] Hawkeye/Thanos (Space?)
  • FrozteyFroztey Break the Cuffs Joined: Posts: 9,111 mod
    Laura's options after a knockdown are pretty brutal on Alex, I've had multiple matches where I've had the life lead go from over half to a round loss just due to being knocked down or command grabbed once. Alex doesn't have options as strong as her for his oki, so Laura wins the "Who can make the other guess harder" war between grapplers. Her counter poke on some of Alex's main mid-range tools like his cr.mp are also pretty legit, cr.hp can stuff that shit all day. Sure, guess right multiple times and you win but the same can be said for Mika, who can dominate once in the corner just through guesswork.
    SFV - I drop everyone after a week
    Sometimes I upload stuff - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtQESJOpYAW3RQ_ag9q9T_g
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