SFV Matchup Chart. S2 Boxer vs Guile; Urien vs Gief; Ibuki vs Sim; Ryu vs Vega; Juri vs FANG

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  • HawkingbirdHawkingbird I am thou...thou art I Joined: Posts: 24,924
    Froztey wrote: »
    Alex vs. Laura, 4-6

    I disagree with this one. Laura doesn't any good options neither if she's the one who gets knocked down. Her ex elbow is all she has going for her and the armor like everything else starts on frame 3. A grab, ex chop or just hitting her before the armor activates will take of that. Laura ain't fucking with him in his optimal range. She'll need to land a crush counter with her roundhouses to get in close. Alex's jab shuts down all her aerial offense and can beat cross-ups attempts.
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  • HeavensCloudHeavensCloud Joined: Posts: 703
    @S_Kelson could help with Karin match-ups.
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 35,549 mod
    Talked to DJ and I'm gonna give him and @LordWilliam1234 (and whoever else needs to be involved) access to the automated chart I made some time ago. Should speed things up somewhat since half the chart auto-populates thanks to formulas, plus it also calculates for true mid based on the final results.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vRoOZQC6RU4iWxNPR8EfUL1CIk2eel3jHBO29uxsp3w/edit?usp=sharing

    For anyone who wants to try it out, I've also made a template you can use to make a similar chart with the same formulas.

    https://drive.google.com/previewtemplate?id=1vRoOZQC6RU4iWxNPR8EfUL1CIk2eel3jHBO29uxsp3w&mode=public#
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  • S_KelsonS_Kelson Joined: Posts: 143
    @HeavensCloud Oh wow I'm honored to be mentioned haha. Sure I would be glad to help with this for Karin matchups. We should try to get input from character-specific threads since they contain a lot of niche info.
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  • LordWilliam1234LordWilliam1234 I need a win button Joined: Posts: 20,596
    Been a while (was waiting to see if there would be more input in this thread), but I went back through the thread and made a new match-up chart:

    vqqAb4Z.png

    Still a WIP of course, need more input to make this better. But if we go by this, that would make the tier list something like this (characters are ordered within tiers):

    S Tier

    Ryu, Necalli

    A Tier

    Nash
    Chun-li, Ken
    Vega
    Cammy
    Karin
    Guile
    R. Mika

    B Tier

    Juri
    Laura
    Dhalsim
    Birdie, Zangief
    Alex
    Ibuki
    Balrog

    C Tier

    FANG, Rashid
    Bison

    Some of these are more lack of input than anything (e.g Guile and Balrog I think would probably shift quite a bit), but it's interesting seeing tiers form from this.
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  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 8,385
    edited September 2016
    After our discussions in the subforum, Laura's MUs rather look like this:

    3-7
    Chun
    Guile (at least 4-6 anyway)

    4-6
    Cammy
    Necalli
    Ryu
    Juri (potentially)
    Karin (5.5?)
    Ken
    Zangief

    5-5
    Alex
    Birdie
    Ibuki
    R. Mika
    Rashid

    6-4
    Dictator
    Boxer
    Dhalsim
    FANG
    Nash (5.5?)
    Claw (5.5?)

    I think some of them are a little closer to 5-5 than what indicated here (Karin above everything), but this is what people seem to agree about.
    [SFV] Laura, Vega [3S] Alex, Ken
    [UNIEL] Orie [Xrd] Leo
    [BBCF] Bullet [T7] Claudio
  • MachoRhombusMachoRhombus Joined: Posts: 2,820
    edited September 2016
    I have no issues butting in for Mika matchups :) Will add my numbers later today but do take into account that, like MochaLatte, MU numbers are super volatile in my opinion. I used to think Mika beat Laura and now I think it's 5-5, I also thought Chun was a 5-5 and now I think it's in Chun's favor.

    What I'm saying is what I'll post will probably be different to my MU numbers in december, lol.
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  • NecrotrophicNecrotrophic Isn't a communist. Joined: Posts: 5,594
    edited September 2016
    Cammy loses 4-6 to birdie and beats Vega 6-4
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  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 35,549 mod
    edited September 2016
    Been a while (was waiting to see if there would be more input in this thread), but I went back through the thread and made a new match-up chart:

    vqqAb4Z.png

    Still a WIP of course, need more input to make this better.
    -Arrange the characters in alphabetical order.
    -Color code the match up numbers.
    -Calculate for true mid

    If you need help doing these, you can check out the match up chart template I made.

    EDIT: True mid (average) is 100 so R. Mika is true mid tier. So considering how close some characters are to her (Juri, Guile, 'Sim, Birdie, etc.) you can probably group them all in a separate tier.
    Post edited by d3v on
    You can't ask for well-thought-out changes off day 1, week 1, or mostly even month 1 play...and that's when the game is out and everyone's in the lab.
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    -Daigo Umehara

  • LoyalSolLoyalSol Drunken Akuma Joined: Posts: 6,903
    Just so I don't receive any nasty messages again from angry Vega players again. I don't think Claw is 3-7. But I think it is definitely a hard match up
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  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 8,385
    edited September 2016
    delete
    [SFV] Laura, Vega [3S] Alex, Ken
    [UNIEL] Orie [Xrd] Leo
    [BBCF] Bullet [T7] Claudio
  • zektbackzektback Joined: Posts: 353
    edited September 2016
    I see Laura vs Cammy as a 4-6 but no more than that. The MU really isn't that different from Ryu or Ken except for the better neutral and the lack of fireballs for Cammy. Her linearity and the low health/stun make the MU relatively unstressful.
    The only 3-7 for Laura is Chun and potentially Guile (I'm not sure though, what can he really do besides throwing booms all day?)

    With Guile throwing the booms its all he really needs to do since his will recover quickly, so it makes using EX Elbow a bit more risky if youre not at a good space. Plus he can use his like a shield like Laura and walk foward, but his will go fully across the screen. Laura can't jump because of the Flash Kick and his other AA, and his normals have better range than hers. If his V-Skill is charged he can get in on Laura rather easily, so it puts Laura in a bad space. I agree with the a 3.5-6.5 (but I guess just 3-7 for the sake of the forum) because it is really hard to get in on Guile, especially if Guile has meter and the Laura player has to constantly worry about an EX Flash Kick that will force her to restart the process all over again.

    I still think Cammy is 3-7 against Laura. The only thing helping is Cammys low health, but Laura doesnt have any option that can be a threat against her and cant punish her at all unless it was a DP. You basically have to luck out and hope you did the right thing.

    Zangeif
    is in the realm of a 3.5-6.5 (I want to say so badly 3-7 but thats just the pettiness in me lol). Everything she does put her in the range to be grabbed since her moves have short range and move her foward. No FB unless at full screen away since he can dash and press s.hk and will CC her since her start up is too slow. No jumping because he can swat her out with Lariat and st.lp, no elbow use at all since she'll just be SPD'd, and his cr.lp just shuts down alot of her getting in options and pushes her so far out. If he gets full bar Laura has to take an extreme amount of caution. I don't really see what option Laura has to do here.

    Ive played more against Alex, and its really just a toss up between the two. Alex has longer range, but Laura can wail on Alex when she gets in. So to be honest its a 5-5, each has things the other doesnt want to deal with.

    I don't know what to say about Karin honestly. I mean yeah she has a metered DP, but I think the real threat comes from her long and safe normals, mainly just the use of cr.mp, cr.mk, and st.mk. It can be complete hell for Laura. and she can hesitate to throw a FB because of Karin's overhead, but that's pretty easy to bait and punish hard, especially if Laura uses the lp version. Karin's V-Trigger doesnt really mean anything if you just V-Reversal out of it so it's not really that much of a threat. I definitely dont fear the match up anymore as more-so it can be very aggravating.

    At the end of it all as stated before, Laura can truly shine if she faces against someone with no invincible reversal.
  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 8,385
    3-7 vs Cammy and 3.5-6.5 vs Zangief look to me way off. The only way I can explain that is that we're using two totally different scales, in which case according to your scale Chun and Guile should be at least 2-8. I think in this game 3-7 are very rare and mostly fueled by the personal feelings of mains that struggle in a particular MU - and everyone tends to downplay his own main anyway.

    Most of what you're telling about Cammy and Zangief is just theory fighting. Of course Cammy can DP everything Laura does and Laura can't do the same, of course Gief can Lariat every jump in or grab you out of blocked elbows (but then again, every single character can), but if those things happen it just means you're not respecting enough or your jumps are too predictable. I don't even see why you should mention Gief's CA since it's literally the same thing against every character.
    Gief is one of the few characters against which you can actually zone with her fireball. Even his armored moves can do nothing against 3-hitting charged fireballs, and since he has to commit to jumps more than you do and he has a huge hitbox you can catch him in the air easily with H bolt (unless he has meter for the EX air SPD). The real issue with Gief is rather that you're not allowed to whiff any normal because it means entering his L/EX SPD range; you should either be very careful while playing footsies or shield yourself with fireballs at the right range.
    There's already enough tournament evidence of Laura players winning sets against Cammy so the MU is definitely far from impossible. To me it doesn't look nearly as hard as Ryu, a good Guile or Chun and it's actually closer to Karin (which is somewhere around 5/5.5 to me), more streamlined and with smaller damage output but with definitely better defensive options.
    [SFV] Laura, Vega [3S] Alex, Ken
    [UNIEL] Orie [Xrd] Leo
    [BBCF] Bullet [T7] Claudio
  • midnight_carnivalmidnight_carnival Joined: Posts: 69


    I main cammy and I mostly agree with necro's list. Sim feels a bit weird at times but that's because my friend is a really intelligent player. I find sim players to be easy if they just sit back and let you whiff punish all day but a really smart one that knows how to get in and out can be quite a pain for her. However when you do get in I think he gets destroyed by cammy. I do think laura fairs a bit better than Necro is giving her credit for. Primarily due to how fast she stuns if she gets started, which is how myself and most of the good cammy's I've seen lose that matchup. I'm certain she has an advantage for sure but her stun output is high and cammy is easy to stun while also not having the health to sustain that kind of damage. In addition she does have high burst damage with v-trigger, but its not the v-trigger that chun, balrog, or necal have that could help her come back from a huge health deficit consistently. I do think its 6 - 4 or 5.5 - 4.5 in cammy's favor but laura definitely can edge it out. Other than that its spot on I really only have trouble with ryu (if they turtle), birdie (if I can't corner him), and gief (from everywhere).
  • NecrotrophicNecrotrophic Isn't a communist. Joined: Posts: 5,594
    I played a few hit and run style of Laura's, strangely I think that's the way laura should play the matchup.
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  • zektbackzektback Joined: Posts: 353


    I main cammy and I mostly agree with necro's list. Sim feels a bit weird at times but that's because my friend is a really intelligent player. I find sim players to be easy if they just sit back and let you whiff punish all day but a really smart one that knows how to get in and out can be quite a pain for her. However when you do get in I think he gets destroyed by cammy. I do think laura fairs a bit better than Necro is giving her credit for. Primarily due to how fast she stuns if she gets started, which is how myself and most of the good cammy's I've seen lose that matchup. I'm certain she has an advantage for sure but her stun output is high and cammy is easy to stun while also not having the health to sustain that kind of damage. In addition she does have high burst damage with v-trigger, but its not the v-trigger that chun, balrog, or necal have that could help her come back from a huge health deficit consistently. I do think its 6 - 4 or 5.5 - 4.5 in cammy's favor but laura definitely can edge it out. Other than that its spot on I really only have trouble with ryu (if they turtle), birdie (if I can't corner him), and gief (from everywhere).

    ohh thanks for this!
  • QuarkQuark Joined: Posts: 3,985
    edited September 2016
    I may have said this already in the other thread, but I am curious about the reasoning behind Alex and Mika being 6-4 MUs for Sim, as well as Karin being a 5-5 MU. I have only heard Sim players talk about these as bad matchups.

    edit: according to OceanMachine Laura beats Sim as well

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  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 8,385
    Quark wrote: »
    edit: according to OceanMachine Laura beats Sim as well

    Not really according to me but to most Laura players. I was having some issues at the very beginning, but as soon as I figured out that Laura has the tools to shut down most of Sim's ground game it became much easier. He won't throw any far normal out as long as a fireball is out or that she has meter for EX bolt (probably the main threat for Sim). He still has the same issue as Cammy of being a frail character against someone that can build stun very fast, and on top of that his teleport isn't throw invincible on first frames, making him vulnerable to meaty throws. The MU plays imho a bit like Nash in that he will run most of the time but at the end she will make him her grappling bud.
    [SFV] Laura, Vega [3S] Alex, Ken
    [UNIEL] Orie [Xrd] Leo
    [BBCF] Bullet [T7] Claudio
  • SmokeMaxXSmokeMaxX T.O. of A.R.K. Joined: Posts: 7,974
    I don't think Birdie beats Cammy 6-4 at all. I think it's even.
  • CipherCipher Catchphraser Joined: Posts: 1,617
    SmokeMaxX wrote: »
    I don't think Birdie beats Cammy 6-4 at all. I think it's even.

    Don't say this loud!
    Actually why is Ryu-Cammy 6-4? Wasn't it 5-5 too?
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  • SmokeMaxXSmokeMaxX T.O. of A.R.K. Joined: Posts: 7,974
    edited September 2016
    Cipher wrote: »
    SmokeMaxX wrote: »
    I don't think Birdie beats Cammy 6-4 at all. I think it's even.

    Don't say this loud!
    Actually why is Ryu-Cammy 6-4? Wasn't it 5-5 too?
    Lol, I'd say it loud even if Birdie won 7-3. I want Birdie buffs in Season 2!
  • FrozteyFroztey That British Dude Joined: Posts: 7,928
    What's the Alex vs. Vega match-up down as, 5-5? Fuck no, that's a 6-4 to Claw at least
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  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Ibuki and Juri BUFFZ Joined: Posts: 53,410 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Birdie vs Cammy theoretically would be even as Cammy just has a ton of tools that stop his V Skill. His V Skill is his main way to buff the use of his otherwise more gimmicky special moves and she can always remove that quickly with many of her body hurling tools on reaction.

    Kunoichi is always in V Trigger

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  • Dime_xDime_x Wasting time Joined: Posts: 9,741
    edited September 2016
    I still don't think people are using most v triggers optimally. There are a few that are optimal or close to it, like Chun and cammy, but others like birdie, Ryu, Laura, maybe rashid, guile,ken, that have more to them than meets the eye.

    As an example, chuns still need to start absorbing fireballs with bhp in v trigger, and they still need to start applying fhk in v trigger better as its a combo without needing CH.

    There are lots of these kinds of things going on with other v triggers as well, but lots of people are only using them for their pop. Ryu as an example, his v trigger gives him the bets fireball in the game, but at the price of v meter, well when I use Ryu, instead of just firing off fireballs as fats as possible to maximize how many I get out, instead I try to just fire them like super imbalanced pokes that my opponent either respects, or gets hit by. I've found ryus v trigger to be pretty decent TBH. Not terribly good, but not bad either.
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  • zektbackzektback Joined: Posts: 353
    @OceanMachine Hey can you explain the Ibuki match up with Laura? Wouldnt it lean into Ibuki's favor with the kunais and DP?
  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 8,385
    edited September 2016
    zektback wrote: »
    OceanMachine Hey can you explain the Ibuki match up with Laura? Wouldnt it lean into Ibuki's favor with the kunais and DP?

    Maybe, but both kunais and DPs come in limited stock and she would rather keep the bar for EX kunais than spend it for DPs. Laura has overall better normals but the best of Ibuki's normals is airborne and crushes lows, which means you can't grab or hit her low for free; Ibuki's command dashes can cross-up but Laura's dashes are much safer; and Ibuki's floaty jump is both deceiving and easier to AA than other jumps. And then there's always those 900 HP/900 stun that weigh heavy against Laura.
    I think they're similar rushdown/mixup characters and the weaknesses of one are counterbalanced by those of the other. Who will win is determined by who is more patient and who falls less for the opponent's gimmicks.
    [SFV] Laura, Vega [3S] Alex, Ken
    [UNIEL] Orie [Xrd] Leo
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  • CipherCipher Catchphraser Joined: Posts: 1,617
    Birdie vs Cammy theoretically would be even as Cammy just has a ton of tools that stop his V Skill. His V Skill is his main way to buff the use of his otherwise more gimmicky special moves and she can always remove that quickly with many of her body hurling tools on reaction.

    We allready know how this ends, we went trough this in the MU thread like 3 times.

    I personaly think the MU is even,just because they can both fight each other effectively.
    Cammy has the tools to tell Birdie not to fuck around and up close she is at the advantage,since Birdies defence outside of V-Trigger is absolut bad.
    It's a bit tricky to fight Birdie in the neutral,but he has the same problem as Chun has vs Cammy,once Cammy gets 1 Bar it becomes problematic to play the neutral,since you always have to fear the treat of the EX Divekick.
    It's not like Cammy got the tools to beat Birdie in the neutral too, but noone cares about them either.
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  • Dime_xDime_x Wasting time Joined: Posts: 9,741
    edited September 2016
    Wrong thread
    Post edited by Dime_x on
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • MessatsMessats Joined: Posts: 242
    edited September 2016
    Froztey wrote: »
    What's the Alex vs. Vega match-up down as, 5-5? Fuck no, that's a 6-4 to Claw at least

    Most Vega players believe Alex wins this. I'm with them.
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  • NecrotrophicNecrotrophic Isn't a communist. Joined: Posts: 5,594
    Birdie vs Cammy theoretically would be even as Cammy just has a ton of tools that stop his V Skill. His V Skill is his main way to buff the use of his otherwise more gimmicky special moves and she can always remove that quickly with many of her body hurling tools on reaction.

    Most of Cammy's damage comes from frame traps or shimmy.

    Birdie has no reason to press anything during pressure. He wants to take the throw and be reset to an advantageous position. While cammy is trying to get back in, one screw up can lead to him getting more damage than she does.

    His v skill isn't really the threat in this matchup, at least not always. It's the damage conversion off of everything, and the very low practical damage cammy has because he can just take a throw. When you factor in health, there's no way cammy can last as long at this. Birdie is one of the few characters that completely out footsies cammy, so when he takes a throw its a really bad situation for her, whereas usually, she can reset to neutral and have an advantage still.

    The best thing cammy has in this matchup is instant ex dive. But there are good tools to deal with that. In the case of getting hit, just take the throw after the reset. On block either vreversal or take the throw. If cammy needs to use meter just to get something like a throw I don't see how this matchup can be even.

    I'm sure any decent cammy would agree, and basically everyone in the cammy forum says the same thing about the mu.
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  • midnight_carnivalmidnight_carnival Joined: Posts: 69
    Cipher could you expound on why you don't think the birdie matchup is slightly in his favor. Most cammy's in the forum do agree that while she does really well against the top half of the cast she struggles in a few matchups with characters in the tier below her. Necro does raise some valid points...Birdie does out neutral cammy perhaps until she has v-trigger. Sure cammy does have the tools to get around it but because of her low health/high stun and his high health/high damage you tend to have to play more perfectly than you would against some of the other cast. That's why i think defensive ryu's (like daigo style, I actually think she does well if the ryu plays more like tokido), birdie, and Geif are her worst matchups. While I do think they aren't so bad that she can't win them I just feel as though she has to do a bit more work than she normally would. For instance consider your own experience..have you never played against geif and gotten significantly more hits only to guess wrong once or twice and lose. That's cammy's weakness and most cammy players feel that those three chars are in a very good position to exploit it. Or do you feel as though cammy only has 5-5's or better across the board? I don't think she has a 3 - 7 against any character (as I don't feel there are many of those in this game) and if she does its only geif, but i do think she is in a less than desirable position in those matchups.
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Ibuki and Juri BUFFZ Joined: Posts: 53,410 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    edited September 2016
    People talk about Cammy's low health and limited options vs Gief and Birdie, but you have to look at how it would neutrally only get worse with other characters. It's not like Mika is going to have better neutral vs them and she has no DP either. At least Cammy still has an invincible DP to make reads against buttons in the neutral and escape a situation without sacrificing her meter. It's a risk cuz CC punish if blocked, but DPs still hit often enough so it's there. Like Mika isn't going to have a better matchup vs Birdie than Cammy because she has a stocky 950 health. She has slower walk speed, no DP to call out abuse of his big buttons and needs meter to reliably shut down his V Skill options.


    Cammy's buttons are too good to have a 3-7 vs Gief and I personally think the issue is Cammys still need to explore their button options vs him. I keep seeing Cammy players say they have so much trouble vs his jab when jabs have terrible priority due to the trade system any way. Gief can kill you in 2 or 3 moves once he has V Trigger and Super regardless of your health value. That's just how he's designed and things like EX SPD hurt big unless you're like a 1050 health character.



    Cammy has high damage output with resources. People say that Cammy basically has 2 supers because of the damage she can get off her V Trigger. Her lower health is offset by the potential damage she can do each round, a meterless DP to call out predictable offense/footsies and generally some of the best overall footsie and anti air tools in the game.

    Cammy's 900 stun (only character with 900 stun) and poor V Reversal is more of her issue than her health. Karin, Ibuki and Sim also have 900 health/950 stun and they're finding ways to work and or place highly in tournaments. The only thing you can really call out about Cammy's stamina is the 900 stun which puts her in stun range a bit faster than the other 900 health characters. Yet, she's the only 900 health character with a meterless DP that pushes the opponent far enough away to reduce your stun. Her V Reversal is really negative on block and has short range which is why you don't see people use it much and can put her at more of a liability for the stun. Which is why Cammy players usually just bank on having that call out with the DP instead any way.

    Kunoichi is always in V Trigger

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  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 8,385
    Cammy's 900 stun (only character with 900 stun) and poor V Reversal is more of her issue than her health. Karin, Ibuki and Sim also have 900 health/950 stun and they're finding ways to work and or place highly in tournaments.

    I thought they all had 900 stun too but indeed you are correct... but Cammy still places better in tournament, probably because she has no other real flaws besides linearity.
    I'm starting to think Cammy is the real SF5 Akuma. Hell, she even has the Demon Flip.
    [SFV] Laura, Vega [3S] Alex, Ken
    [UNIEL] Orie [Xrd] Leo
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  • NecrotrophicNecrotrophic Isn't a communist. Joined: Posts: 5,594
    People talk about Cammy's low health and limited options vs Gief and Birdie, but you have to look at how it would neutrally only get worse with other characters. It's not like Mika is going to have better neutral vs them and she has no DP either. At least Cammy still has an invincible DP to make reads against buttons in the neutral and escape a situation without sacrificing her meter. It's a risk cuz CC punish if blocked, but DPs still hit often enough so it's there. Like Mika isn't going to have a better matchup vs Birdie than Cammy because she has a stocky 950 health. She has slower walk speed, no DP to call out abuse of his big buttons and needs meter to reliably shut down his V Skill options.


    Cammy's buttons are too good to have a 3-7 vs Gief and I personally think the issue is Cammys still need to explore their button options vs him. I keep seeing Cammy players say they have so much trouble vs his jab when jabs have terrible priority due to the trade system any way. Gief can kill you in 2 or 3 moves once he has V Trigger and Super regardless of your health value. That's just how he's designed and things like EX SPD hurt big unless you're like a 1050 health character.



    Cammy has high damage output with resources. People say that Cammy basically has 2 supers because of the damage she can get off her V Trigger. Her lower health is offset by the potential damage she can do each round, a meterless DP to call out predictable offense/footsies and generally some of the best overall footsie and anti air tools in the game.

    Cammy's 900 stun (only character with 900 stun) and poor V Reversal is more of her issue than her health. Karin, Ibuki and Sim also have 900 health/950 stun and they're finding ways to work and or place highly in tournaments. The only thing you can really call out about Cammy's stamina is the 900 stun which puts her in stun range a bit faster than the other 900 health characters. Yet, she's the only 900 health character with a meterless DP that pushes the opponent far enough away to reduce your stun. Her V Reversal is really negative on block and has short range which is why you don't see people use it much and can put her at more of a liability for the stun. Which is why Cammy players usually just bank on having that call out with the DP instead any way.

    Mika is scarier when she gets in IMO. Everything about cammy is shimmy/frame trap/throw. Birdie doesn't care about throw, so the other two fall apart if the birdie refuses to tech or press buttons during pressure
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  • MachoRhombusMachoRhombus Joined: Posts: 2,820
    Mika is scarier because of the command grab, Birdie reading it and neutral jumping it is more worrysome than against most characters because that shit is going to hurt and he will push you back a ton which is actually an issue in that matchup because his neutral is fucking good and he'll get time to setup the can or the banana.

    If Mika claps him into the corner with full meter he's fucking dead though. I'll give you that.
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  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 35,549 mod
    Speaking of Cammy, apparently Xian considers her F.A.N.G.'s worse match up.
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  • midnight_carnivalmidnight_carnival Joined: Posts: 69
    lol well apparently to you guys shes the best character in the game..as those are the only matchups that cammy mains tend to think she has trouble. To say that someone isn't exploring their buttons versus a character is quite an assumption. If you have no trouble vs. those characters and your a cammy main then by all means post a matchup of vid to display the key highlights but don't discount my opinion just to say were not doing our homework. Iv'e asked cobelcog and hurricane on stream personally and even they believe those characters give her trouble. If you read my post i said i doubt that she has any 7 - 3's but i do think that there are matchups that she's at a disadvantage. Furthermore Cammy's biggest weakness isn't the stun or v-reversal imo its how linear she is and the fact that throws pretty much just reset the situation for her until you get to the corner (ie she gets nothing off of them but corner carry). She's a very honest character that has some trouble when you just want to hold down back and throw out lows like (ryu's cr. mp to challenge shimmy's and divekicks) I never said she can't get around the matchups I just don't think there in her favor. At best their even but I do not believe that she has only even or good matchups across the board.
  • midnight_carnivalmidnight_carnival Joined: Posts: 69
    And of course karin works it out I wish cammy had that amazing ass sweep giefs have enough to worry about with that and her mk. And Mika is mika...that character can beat anyone of her matchups if you mess up and she makes you play marvel in the corner. The problem with Gief is that you have to take the necalli matchup approach and kinda shuffle outside of his cc. hp zone so you can whiff punish and get started. Unlike necalli he has a move that moves him forward and a very far reaching command grab. Most times cammy's are attempting to take advantage of that sweet spot where she wants to be and your walking back and forth and you get grabbed, and like you said earlier Geif is designed to maul you when he gets in, and I think only ibuki takes a mauling as bad as cammy does. Now here's where the health problem comes in...you have an invincible reversal, but they may be accounting for that and Geif has the health to afford a few bad guesses on a DP. Most Geifs are happy to take a dp or two or three just to get in so they can kill her, and they can afford to do that. So Devil Jin would you put that matchup in cammy's favor,,i personally only think its a 6-4 for geif which isn't that bad honestly but do you think its 5 -5 or something and if so what do you feel her negative matchups are.
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Ibuki and Juri BUFFZ Joined: Posts: 53,410 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Yeah im saying the same thing you are in that there will be struggles for her in those matches, but with her tools they're still manageable and 4 to 6 at worst. There are characters that definitely struggle more vs Gief and Birdie than Cammy

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  • midnight_carnivalmidnight_carnival Joined: Posts: 69
    That's fair I can agree with that lol except Ryu that guy is just amazing but I don't mind lol someone taught me to just backtech against him alot then quickrise everytime to throw him off and it works wonders.
  • QuarkQuark Joined: Posts: 3,985
    edited September 2016
    d3v wrote: »
    Speaking of Cammy, apparently Xian considers her F.A.N.G.'s worse match up.

    Well Xian's gotta be some kinda scrub because my Prima Games SFV Official Strategy Guide clearly states that Cammy "has especially difficult matchups against Dhalsim and FANG" =)

    Sorry, just had to get it off my chest that I actually spent money on that POS. Carry on.

    Post edited by Quark on
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  • SmokeMaxXSmokeMaxX T.O. of A.R.K. Joined: Posts: 7,974
    A few things to keep in mind with Cammy vs. Birdie:

    1) It's extremely common for him to block her DP and not be able to reach her with st. RH crush counter.
    2) Birdie beating her in footsies is arguable at best and IMO just wrong. While you can compare hitboxes and possibly find Birdie's being longer than hers, you have to remember that if she touches him once, she screen (and possibly corner) carries and plus her buttons are significantly faster than his. Example: Cammy's st. hp is 6 frames. Cr. mp is 5 frames. Cr. mk is 7 frames. Cr. lp is 3 frames. Birdie's fastest normal is 4 frames (super short range), st. mp is 7 frames, st. mk is 8 frames, and st. hk is 12 frames. I mean yeah, he does have a 10 frame heavy normal, but it's -9 on block so congrats? When it comes to footsies, I think Birdie is the number 1 crush countered character because he either has shitty hitboxes, slow ass normals (and/or lower priority than heavies) or a combination of all of the above.
    3) So anyway, I keep hearing take the throw, take the throw. But yeah, remember how I just said she carries you across the screen every hit? You can't just "take the throw" in the corner because all that shit loops there. Also, if you're content with just taking the throw, then you're probably not pushing buttons to her her out of her vskill that is + on block.
    4) Birdie's best footsies normals are also the ones where you can jump in on him for free if he sticks them out. They do not recover in time for him to anti-air you in that situation. He can block, but you get a free in so it doesn't matter.
  • NecrotrophicNecrotrophic Isn't a communist. Joined: Posts: 5,594
    SmokeMaxX wrote: »
    A few things to keep in mind with Cammy vs. Birdie:

    1) It's extremely common for him to block her DP and not be able to reach her with st. RH crush counter.
    2) Birdie beating her in footsies is arguable at best and IMO just wrong. While you can compare hitboxes and possibly find Birdie's being longer than hers, you have to remember that if she touches him once, she screen (and possibly corner) carries and plus her buttons are significantly faster than his. Example: Cammy's st. hp is 6 frames. Cr. mp is 5 frames. Cr. mk is 7 frames. Cr. lp is 3 frames. Birdie's fastest normal is 4 frames (super short range), st. mp is 7 frames, st. mk is 8 frames, and st. hk is 12 frames. I mean yeah, he does have a 10 frame heavy normal, but it's -9 on block so congrats? When it comes to footsies, I think Birdie is the number 1 crush countered character because he either has shitty hitboxes, slow ass normals (and/or lower priority than heavies) or a combination of all of the above.
    3) So anyway, I keep hearing take the throw, take the throw. But yeah, remember how I just said she carries you across the screen every hit? You can't just "take the throw" in the corner because all that shit loops there. Also, if you're content with just taking the throw, then you're probably not pushing buttons to her her out of her vskill that is + on block.
    4) Birdie's best footsies normals are also the ones where you can jump in on him for free if he sticks them out. They do not recover in time for him to anti-air you in that situation. He can block, but you get a free in so it doesn't matter.

    There's no range where cammy can safely play looking for a whiff punish that's good for her.

    Cammy does not have a throw loop. She has one off of back throw but you only get one rep. She has to walk forward to get another throw.
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  • QuarkQuark Joined: Posts: 3,985
    edited September 2016
    Geif is designed to maul you when he gets in, and I think only ibuki takes a mauling as bad as cammy does.

    Vega? Karin? Sim? Nash?

    Sure, Cammy's stun rating is worse than all of them and her health is worse than Vega and Nash. On the other hand, she has a meterless invincible reversal and a 3f jab that can confirm into stuff. The other characters listed have at most 1 of those. Sim and Nash have neither.

    I would think those 2 defensive options win Cammy more games than 50-100 extra health or stun would.

    edit:
    FANG probably gets mauled harder than Cammy too
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  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Ibuki and Juri BUFFZ Joined: Posts: 53,410 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    edited September 2016
    SmokeMaxX wrote: »
    A few things to keep in mind with Cammy vs. Birdie:

    1) It's extremely common for him to block her DP and not be able to reach her with st. RH crush counter.
    2) Birdie beating her in footsies is arguable at best and IMO just wrong. While you can compare hitboxes and possibly find Birdie's being longer than hers, you have to remember that if she touches him once, she screen (and possibly corner) carries and plus her buttons are significantly faster than his. Example: Cammy's st. hp is 6 frames. Cr. mp is 5 frames. Cr. mk is 7 frames. Cr. lp is 3 frames. Birdie's fastest normal is 4 frames (super short range), st. mp is 7 frames, st. mk is 8 frames, and st. hk is 12 frames. I mean yeah, he does have a 10 frame heavy normal, but it's -9 on block so congrats? When it comes to footsies, I think Birdie is the number 1 crush countered character because he either has shitty hitboxes, slow ass normals (and/or lower priority than heavies) or a combination of all of the above.
    3) So anyway, I keep hearing take the throw, take the throw. But yeah, remember how I just said she carries you across the screen every hit? You can't just "take the throw" in the corner because all that shit loops there. Also, if you're content with just taking the throw, then you're probably not pushing buttons to her her out of her vskill that is + on block.
    4) Birdie's best footsies normals are also the ones where you can jump in on him for free if he sticks them out. They do not recover in time for him to anti-air you in that situation. He can block, but you get a free in so it doesn't matter.

    There's no range where cammy can safely play looking for a whiff punish that's good for her.

    Cammy does not have a throw loop. She has one off of back throw but you only get one rep. She has to walk forward to get another throw.

    He was talking about the corner. Everyone can throw loop once you touch the corner.



    Ibuki has a 3 frame jab, 3 frame special, ex dp and v reversal with decent invincibility. She can keep from getting mauled. If she had 950 health no one would even be worried about her on defense. But 900 health I think is just below average for this game. It isn't a huge liability like the 750 and 800 health was in SFIV

    Kunoichi is always in V Trigger

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  • LordWilliam1234LordWilliam1234 I need a win button Joined: Posts: 20,596
    SmokeMaxX wrote: »
    A few things to keep in mind with Cammy vs. Birdie:

    1) It's extremely common for him to block her DP and not be able to reach her with st. RH crush counter.
    2) Birdie beating her in footsies is arguable at best and IMO just wrong. While you can compare hitboxes and possibly find Birdie's being longer than hers, you have to remember that if she touches him once, she screen (and possibly corner) carries and plus her buttons are significantly faster than his. Example: Cammy's st. hp is 6 frames. Cr. mp is 5 frames. Cr. mk is 7 frames. Cr. lp is 3 frames. Birdie's fastest normal is 4 frames (super short range), st. mp is 7 frames, st. mk is 8 frames, and st. hk is 12 frames. I mean yeah, he does have a 10 frame heavy normal, but it's -9 on block so congrats? When it comes to footsies, I think Birdie is the number 1 crush countered character because he either has shitty hitboxes, slow ass normals (and/or lower priority than heavies) or a combination of all of the above.
    3) So anyway, I keep hearing take the throw, take the throw. But yeah, remember how I just said she carries you across the screen every hit? You can't just "take the throw" in the corner because all that shit loops there. Also, if you're content with just taking the throw, then you're probably not pushing buttons to her her out of her vskill that is + on block.
    4) Birdie's best footsies normals are also the ones where you can jump in on him for free if he sticks them out. They do not recover in time for him to anti-air you in that situation. He can block, but you get a free in so it doesn't matter.

    There's no range where cammy can safely play looking for a whiff punish that's good for her.

    Cammy does not have a throw loop. She has one off of back throw but you only get one rep. She has to walk forward to get another throw.

    He was talking about the corner. Everyone can throw loop once you touch the corner.

    Except Juri.
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  • NecrotrophicNecrotrophic Isn't a communist. Joined: Posts: 5,594
    SmokeMaxX wrote: »
    A few things to keep in mind with Cammy vs. Birdie:

    1) It's extremely common for him to block her DP and not be able to reach her with st. RH crush counter.
    2) Birdie beating her in footsies is arguable at best and IMO just wrong. While you can compare hitboxes and possibly find Birdie's being longer than hers, you have to remember that if she touches him once, she screen (and possibly corner) carries and plus her buttons are significantly faster than his. Example: Cammy's st. hp is 6 frames. Cr. mp is 5 frames. Cr. mk is 7 frames. Cr. lp is 3 frames. Birdie's fastest normal is 4 frames (super short range), st. mp is 7 frames, st. mk is 8 frames, and st. hk is 12 frames. I mean yeah, he does have a 10 frame heavy normal, but it's -9 on block so congrats? When it comes to footsies, I think Birdie is the number 1 crush countered character because he either has shitty hitboxes, slow ass normals (and/or lower priority than heavies) or a combination of all of the above.
    3) So anyway, I keep hearing take the throw, take the throw. But yeah, remember how I just said she carries you across the screen every hit? You can't just "take the throw" in the corner because all that shit loops there. Also, if you're content with just taking the throw, then you're probably not pushing buttons to her her out of her vskill that is + on block.
    4) Birdie's best footsies normals are also the ones where you can jump in on him for free if he sticks them out. They do not recover in time for him to anti-air you in that situation. He can block, but you get a free in so it doesn't matter.

    There's no range where cammy can safely play looking for a whiff punish that's good for her.

    Cammy does not have a throw loop. She has one off of back throw but you only get one rep. She has to walk forward to get another throw.

    He was talking about the corner. Everyone can throw loop once you touch the corner.



    Ibuki has a 3 frame jab, 3 frame special, ex dp and v reversal with decent invincibility. She can keep from getting mauled.

    So was I. Cammy doesn't have a corner throw loop. She has to walk forward a good bit
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  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Ibuki and Juri BUFFZ Joined: Posts: 53,410 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    SmokeMaxX wrote: »
    A few things to keep in mind with Cammy vs. Birdie:

    1) It's extremely common for him to block her DP and not be able to reach her with st. RH crush counter.
    2) Birdie beating her in footsies is arguable at best and IMO just wrong. While you can compare hitboxes and possibly find Birdie's being longer than hers, you have to remember that if she touches him once, she screen (and possibly corner) carries and plus her buttons are significantly faster than his. Example: Cammy's st. hp is 6 frames. Cr. mp is 5 frames. Cr. mk is 7 frames. Cr. lp is 3 frames. Birdie's fastest normal is 4 frames (super short range), st. mp is 7 frames, st. mk is 8 frames, and st. hk is 12 frames. I mean yeah, he does have a 10 frame heavy normal, but it's -9 on block so congrats? When it comes to footsies, I think Birdie is the number 1 crush countered character because he either has shitty hitboxes, slow ass normals (and/or lower priority than heavies) or a combination of all of the above.
    3) So anyway, I keep hearing take the throw, take the throw. But yeah, remember how I just said she carries you across the screen every hit? You can't just "take the throw" in the corner because all that shit loops there. Also, if you're content with just taking the throw, then you're probably not pushing buttons to her her out of her vskill that is + on block.
    4) Birdie's best footsies normals are also the ones where you can jump in on him for free if he sticks them out. They do not recover in time for him to anti-air you in that situation. He can block, but you get a free in so it doesn't matter.

    There's no range where cammy can safely play looking for a whiff punish that's good for her.

    Cammy does not have a throw loop. She has one off of back throw but you only get one rep. She has to walk forward to get another throw.

    He was talking about the corner. Everyone can throw loop once you touch the corner.

    Except Juri.

    Juri sux hue hue hue.


    I still need to learn her. Shes got a lot of good tools.





    SmokeMaxX wrote: »
    A few things to keep in mind with Cammy vs. Birdie:

    1) It's extremely common for him to block her DP and not be able to reach her with st. RH crush counter.
    2) Birdie beating her in footsies is arguable at best and IMO just wrong. While you can compare hitboxes and possibly find Birdie's being longer than hers, you have to remember that if she touches him once, she screen (and possibly corner) carries and plus her buttons are significantly faster than his. Example: Cammy's st. hp is 6 frames. Cr. mp is 5 frames. Cr. mk is 7 frames. Cr. lp is 3 frames. Birdie's fastest normal is 4 frames (super short range), st. mp is 7 frames, st. mk is 8 frames, and st. hk is 12 frames. I mean yeah, he does have a 10 frame heavy normal, but it's -9 on block so congrats? When it comes to footsies, I think Birdie is the number 1 crush countered character because he either has shitty hitboxes, slow ass normals (and/or lower priority than heavies) or a combination of all of the above.
    3) So anyway, I keep hearing take the throw, take the throw. But yeah, remember how I just said she carries you across the screen every hit? You can't just "take the throw" in the corner because all that shit loops there. Also, if you're content with just taking the throw, then you're probably not pushing buttons to her her out of her vskill that is + on block.
    4) Birdie's best footsies normals are also the ones where you can jump in on him for free if he sticks them out. They do not recover in time for him to anti-air you in that situation. He can block, but you get a free in so it doesn't matter.

    There's no range where cammy can safely play looking for a whiff punish that's good for her.

    Cammy does not have a throw loop. She has one off of back throw but you only get one rep. She has to walk forward to get another throw.

    He was talking about the corner. Everyone can throw loop once you touch the corner.



    Ibuki has a 3 frame jab, 3 frame special, ex dp and v reversal with decent invincibility. She can keep from getting mauled.

    So was I. Cammy doesn't have a corner throw loop. She has to walk forward a good bit

    I dunno, I think she has about the same push back as Ibuki does from forward throw in the corner. If you say so though.

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  • QuarkQuark Joined: Posts: 3,985
    I still need to learn her. Shes got a lot of good tools.

    Mind elaborating on this a little bit? I'm thinking of picking her up for shits and giggles but I haven't played/watched any good Juris yet so I'm not sure what her gameplan is or what she excels at.
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  • SmokeMaxXSmokeMaxX T.O. of A.R.K. Joined: Posts: 7,974
    edited September 2016
    SmokeMaxX wrote: »
    A few things to keep in mind with Cammy vs. Birdie:

    1) It's extremely common for him to block her DP and not be able to reach her with st. RH crush counter.
    2) Birdie beating her in footsies is arguable at best and IMO just wrong. While you can compare hitboxes and possibly find Birdie's being longer than hers, you have to remember that if she touches him once, she screen (and possibly corner) carries and plus her buttons are significantly faster than his. Example: Cammy's st. hp is 6 frames. Cr. mp is 5 frames. Cr. mk is 7 frames. Cr. lp is 3 frames. Birdie's fastest normal is 4 frames (super short range), st. mp is 7 frames, st. mk is 8 frames, and st. hk is 12 frames. I mean yeah, he does have a 10 frame heavy normal, but it's -9 on block so congrats? When it comes to footsies, I think Birdie is the number 1 crush countered character because he either has shitty hitboxes, slow ass normals (and/or lower priority than heavies) or a combination of all of the above.
    3) So anyway, I keep hearing take the throw, take the throw. But yeah, remember how I just said she carries you across the screen every hit? You can't just "take the throw" in the corner because all that shit loops there. Also, if you're content with just taking the throw, then you're probably not pushing buttons to her her out of her vskill that is + on block.
    4) Birdie's best footsies normals are also the ones where you can jump in on him for free if he sticks them out. They do not recover in time for him to anti-air you in that situation. He can block, but you get a free in so it doesn't matter.

    There's no range where cammy can safely play looking for a whiff punish that's good for her.

    Cammy does not have a throw loop. She has one off of back throw but you only get one rep. She has to walk forward to get another throw.

    He was talking about the corner. Everyone can throw loop once you touch the corner.



    Ibuki has a 3 frame jab, 3 frame special, ex dp and v reversal with decent invincibility. She can keep from getting mauled.

    So was I. Cammy doesn't have a corner throw loop. She has to walk forward a good bit
    Guess the Japanese notes are wrong because I can't seem to recreate the throw loop they listed. Either way, if Birdie gets in the corner against Cammy, he basically loses.
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