SFV Matchup Chart. S2 Boxer vs Guile; Urien vs Gief; Ibuki vs Sim; Ryu vs Vega; Juri vs FANG

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Comments

  • SpadaSpada CFN: MeraMora /MeraSpada Joined: Posts: 618
    Do you want each character sub-forum to discuss the match ups and agree on a specific characters matchups list and than compare it with the other characters forums ? Or you want certain members to come up with match ups list for their characters and discuss it among themselves before reaching an agreed match up list ?
    This project sound interesting, good luck.
    I am not a high level player but I think I could help on Fang and Bison match ups if you would like.
  • NecrotrophicNecrotrophic Isn't a communist. Joined: Posts: 5,938
    OceanSalt wrote: »
    @Froztey really 4-6 against Laura? What does it make you say so?
    OceanSalt wrote: »
    I see Laura vs Cammy as a 4-6 but no more than that. The MU really isn't that different from Ryu or Ken except for the better neutral and the lack of fireballs for Cammy. Her linearity and the low health/stun make the MU relatively unstressful.
    The only 3-7 for Laura is Chun and potentially Guile (I'm not sure though, what can he really do besides throwing booms all day?)

    My thing is... What does laura have to handle dive kick? On wakeup she's pretty free too.

    Sure cammy is linear but it doesnt matter in this mu. She always gets in for free and she doesn't even need to be in if she doesn't want to be.

    When she's in, cammy has great pressure. I don't mind throwing her every time because I will get in again if I want to be in. But, eventually laura has to stop taking throws and Cammy's frame traps and ability to blow up walk back/stand blocking is incredible.

    I just don't see what laura has to compete with. I'm not scared of Laura's offense at all

    Well, for the same reason I don't care about Cammy's pressure because the best she can do is press buttons until she tries to throw, and unlike Laura she has no move that gets her into throw range without walking. She also has no overhead and if she gets too happy about frame traps you can just V-Reversal her and knock her down; then you're in a situation when Cammy can either DP or not, and one bad guess may hit her really hard, unlike Laura who can still eat 1 or 2 throws and be fine.
    As for your question against divekicks, Laura can use anyone of her AAs for the close ones and the fireball for the ones from afar, but most of the time you wouldn't bother because she gets so little off her DKs. And if Cammy has no meter and she's not in range for her V-Skill she really has no choice but to respect Laura's fireballs.

    Again, it's really the neutral and the DP that make the difference, but the damage Cammy can deal for winning neutral is nothing compared to Ryu or Ken, which both also have much more stamina. Just look at K-Brad's match against Akram, his long sequences of successful pressure got blown up each time by a few button presses, and when Laura's in VT the stun can quickly stack up on Cammy.

    St.lk has like no push back. If cammy uses st.lk she is already in throw range.

    Even if cammy throws, she's right back in with ex dive.

    Akram beat kbrad because he wouldn't block high.

    I dunno, Laura's offense isn't real most of the time. Cammy wins on defense, neutral and offense. This is why I think this mu is actually free for Cammy.

    It's not easy to anti air ex dive at all. I play good Laura's constantly. If you consider points as something that matters, then I have a friend who is a diamond laura and really he can't keep cammy off. I also noticed this with literally every laura I've ever played, including wolfkrone (for what it's worth)

    I'm actually ok with throwing laura Everytime because throwing gives lots of meter and that means I'll be in again whenever I feel like it. Otherwise I can either do neutral or defensive play and have an advantage anyway.
    Northeast PA
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  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 10,226
    Akram beat kbrad because he wouldn't block high.

    What does it even mean? Watch the match again, K-Brad AAed Akram every time and the only two times he landed the overhead he got CCed, so either he was pressing buttons or more probably backdashing. Akram almost didn't land any command grab either.

    If you think that was just a bad match you can watch this set of Cuongster vs Will2pac that the latter won 5-1:

    Some matches are a particularly good display of how much Laura doesn't mind about Cammy's offense. You can see Will2pac not caring about the tons of grey life on him, eating throw loops, then one st. MK into VT and Cammy is already halfway to get dizzied and killed.
    I dunno, Laura's offense isn't real most of the time. Cammy wins on defense, neutral and offense. This is why I think this mu is actually free for Cammy.
    And how is Cammy's offense more real than Laura's exactly? Again, her damage output and conversion just aren't there, her options are limited both in neutral and on wakeup and her frame traps aren't really better than Laura's.
    Her defense, neutral and offense are nowhere near as solid or varied as Chun's, so if Cammy is a 3-7 Chun should be at least a 1-9.
    [SFV] Laura (Sakura, Cody?) [3S] Alex, Ken
    [Xrd] Leo [BBCF] Bullet
    [UNIEL] Orie [T7] Claudio
    [MvCI] Thanos and something else
  • NecrotrophicNecrotrophic Isn't a communist. Joined: Posts: 5,938
    Cammy's offense isn't telegraphed set play.

    She is all frame trap/throw/shimmy

    Akram abused vskill overheads, which is nothing more than a gimmick.

    Cammy doesn't need to take very many risks and nothing is telegraphed. She also gets in near 100% of the time and wins neutral.

    She wins on offense, defense and neutral.

    There is nothing left to consider for a matchup.
    Northeast PA
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  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 10,226
    Akram "abused" her overheads?? He only used two of them and both in the same sequence! Really, just re-watch the set, overhead didn't really play any role against K-Brad. You're probably confusing with the Ibuki match that came later where Akram was literally just having fun with an opponent he was already dominating.

    And sorry but Cammy's tick throws are the most telegraphed in the whole roster. It's the only character that has to go for a throw sooner or later because she just can't throw normals all day long hoping to bait something, so you just need to focus on that.
    When Laura does a st. LP/MP, cr. MP xx EX fireball it's immediately both a frame trap and a 50/50. What does Cammy get for a st. LP or a cr. MP? Nothing unless she decides to walk forward. That's why her offense isn't scary.
    [SFV] Laura (Sakura, Cody?) [3S] Alex, Ken
    [Xrd] Leo [BBCF] Bullet
    [UNIEL] Orie [T7] Claudio
    [MvCI] Thanos and something else
  • NecrotrophicNecrotrophic Isn't a communist. Joined: Posts: 5,938
    OceanSalt wrote: »
    Akram "abused" her overheads?? He only used two of them and both in the same sequence! Really, just re-watch the set, overhead didn't really play any role against K-Brad. You're probably confusing with the Ibuki match that came later where Akram was literally just having fun with an opponent he was already dominating.

    And sorry but Cammy's tick throws are the most telegraphed in the whole roster. It's the only character that has to go for a throw sooner or later because she just can't throw normals all day long hoping to bait something, so you just need to focus on that.
    When Laura does a st. LP/MP, cr. MP xx EX fireball it's immediately both a frame trap and a 50/50. What does Cammy get for a st. LP or a cr. MP? Nothing unless she decides to walk forward. That's why her offense isn't scary.

    I already told you about st.lk
    Northeast PA
    570 Necro
  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 10,226
    I already told you about st.lk

    It's +1 on block. There's no frame trap or guess there.
    [SFV] Laura (Sakura, Cody?) [3S] Alex, Ken
    [Xrd] Leo [BBCF] Bullet
    [UNIEL] Orie [T7] Claudio
    [MvCI] Thanos and something else
  • NecrotrophicNecrotrophic Isn't a communist. Joined: Posts: 5,938
    edited August 2016
    OceanSalt wrote: »
    I already told you about st.lk

    It's +1 on block. There's no frame trap or guess there.

    Yeah. None

    St.lk Cr.lp : 2 fr gap
    St lk st.lp 3 fr gap
    St lk Cr.mp : 4 fr gap
    St.lk st.mp: 5 frame gap
    She has more

    There's no push back really either so she can immediately throw.

    Anyway. I'm done here. There's no point.
    Northeast PA
    570 Necro
  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 10,226
    edited August 2016
    OceanSalt wrote: »
    I already told you about st.lk

    It's +1 on block. There's no frame trap or guess there.

    Yeah. None

    St.lk Cr.lp : 2 fr gap
    St lk st.lp 3 fr gap
    St lk Cr.mp : 4 fr gap
    St.lk st.mp: 5 frame gap
    She has more

    There's no push back really either so she can immediately throw.

    Anyway. I'm done here. There's no point.

    Sorry I forgot the cr. LP. It's the only valid one though in the MU we're talking about since Laura has a 3f jab, the other ones will just trade or get beaten.
    [SFV] Laura (Sakura, Cody?) [3S] Alex, Ken
    [Xrd] Leo [BBCF] Bullet
    [UNIEL] Orie [T7] Claudio
    [MvCI] Thanos and something else
  • Marsh_D_TeachMarsh_D_Teach Joined: Posts: 85
    edited August 2016
    Zangief MU spread :

    Gief vs Laura, 6-4

    Gief vs Rashid, 5-5

    Gief vs. Alex, 5-5

    Gief vs Birdie, 4-6

    Gief vs Sim, 4-6

    Gief vs. Nash, 3-7

    Gief vs Bison, 5-5

    Gief vs Mika, 6-4

    Gief vs ryu, 5-5

    Gief vs Ken, 4-6

    Gief vs Chun, 4-6

    Gief vs Necalli, 5-5

    Gief vs Guile, 4-6 ( theres a feeling that its possibly 5-5, requires more observation)

    Gief vs balrog, 6-4

    Gief vs Juri, ??? (Not enough data right now)

    Gief vs Cammy, 6-4

    Gief vs Fang 5-5

    Gief vs Vega, 4-6

    Gief vs Karin, 6-4

    Gief vs Ibuki, 6-4


    Post edited by Marsh_D_Teach on
  • HawkingbirdHawkingbird I am thou...thou art I Joined: Posts: 26,794
    Froztey wrote: »
    Alex vs. Laura, 4-6

    I disagree with this one. Laura doesn't any good options neither if she's the one who gets knocked down. Her ex elbow is all she has going for her and the armor like everything else starts on frame 3. A grab, ex chop or just hitting her before the armor activates will take of that. Laura ain't fucking with him in his optimal range. She'll need to land a crush counter with her roundhouses to get in close. Alex's jab shuts down all her aerial offense and can beat cross-ups attempts.
    PSN: Hawkingbird
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  • HeavensCloudHeavensCloud Joined: Posts: 862
    @S_Kelson could help with Karin match-ups.
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 37,110 mod
    Talked to DJ and I'm gonna give him and @LordWilliam1234 (and whoever else needs to be involved) access to the automated chart I made some time ago. Should speed things up somewhat since half the chart auto-populates thanks to formulas, plus it also calculates for true mid based on the final results.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vRoOZQC6RU4iWxNPR8EfUL1CIk2eel3jHBO29uxsp3w/edit?usp=sharing

    For anyone who wants to try it out, I've also made a template you can use to make a similar chart with the same formulas.

    https://drive.google.com/previewtemplate?id=1vRoOZQC6RU4iWxNPR8EfUL1CIk2eel3jHBO29uxsp3w&mode=public#
  • S_KelsonS_Kelson Joined: Posts: 143
    @HeavensCloud Oh wow I'm honored to be mentioned haha. Sure I would be glad to help with this for Karin matchups. We should try to get input from character-specific threads since they contain a lot of niche info.
    3S- Oro, some Q
    USFIV- Gen, Rufus
    SFV- Karin
  • LordWilliam1234LordWilliam1234 Lab Cat Joined: Posts: 22,386
    Been a while (was waiting to see if there would be more input in this thread), but I went back through the thread and made a new match-up chart:

    vqqAb4Z.png

    Still a WIP of course, need more input to make this better. But if we go by this, that would make the tier list something like this (characters are ordered within tiers):

    S Tier

    Ryu, Necalli

    A Tier

    Nash
    Chun-li, Ken
    Vega
    Cammy
    Karin
    Guile
    R. Mika

    B Tier

    Juri
    Laura
    Dhalsim
    Birdie, Zangief
    Alex
    Ibuki
    Balrog

    C Tier

    FANG, Rashid
    Bison

    Some of these are more lack of input than anything (e.g Guile and Balrog I think would probably shift quite a bit), but it's interesting seeing tiers form from this.
    PSN/Steam/NNID/CFN: LordWilliam1234
    SFV: Ed, Zeku | Smash 4: Toon Link Blazblue: Kokonoe
    Smash 4 Frame Data
    SFV Frame Data
    SFV Combo Tier List (Season 2.1)
  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 10,226
    edited September 2016
    After our discussions in the subforum, Laura's MUs rather look like this:

    3-7
    Chun
    Guile (at least 4-6 anyway)

    4-6
    Cammy
    Necalli
    Ryu
    Juri (potentially)
    Karin (5.5?)
    Ken
    Zangief

    5-5
    Alex
    Birdie
    Ibuki
    R. Mika
    Rashid

    6-4
    Dictator
    Boxer
    Dhalsim
    FANG
    Nash (5.5?)
    Claw (5.5?)

    I think some of them are a little closer to 5-5 than what indicated here (Karin above everything), but this is what people seem to agree about.
    [SFV] Laura (Sakura, Cody?) [3S] Alex, Ken
    [Xrd] Leo [BBCF] Bullet
    [UNIEL] Orie [T7] Claudio
    [MvCI] Thanos and something else
  • MachoRhombusMachoRhombus Joined: Posts: 2,912
    edited September 2016
    I have no issues butting in for Mika matchups :) Will add my numbers later today but do take into account that, like MochaLatte, MU numbers are super volatile in my opinion. I used to think Mika beat Laura and now I think it's 5-5, I also thought Chun was a 5-5 and now I think it's in Chun's favor.

    What I'm saying is what I'll post will probably be different to my MU numbers in december, lol.
    CFN ID - PenguinShivers

    MJ|Shivers.
  • NecrotrophicNecrotrophic Isn't a communist. Joined: Posts: 5,938
    edited September 2016
    Cammy loses 4-6 to birdie and beats Vega 6-4
    Northeast PA
    570 Necro
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 37,110 mod
    edited September 2016
    Been a while (was waiting to see if there would be more input in this thread), but I went back through the thread and made a new match-up chart:

    vqqAb4Z.png

    Still a WIP of course, need more input to make this better.
    -Arrange the characters in alphabetical order.
    -Color code the match up numbers.
    -Calculate for true mid

    If you need help doing these, you can check out the match up chart template I made.

    EDIT: True mid (average) is 100 so R. Mika is true mid tier. So considering how close some characters are to her (Juri, Guile, 'Sim, Birdie, etc.) you can probably group them all in a separate tier.
    Post edited by d3v on
  • LoyalSolLoyalSol Drunken Akuma Joined: Posts: 6,905
    Just so I don't receive any nasty messages again from angry Vega players again. I don't think Claw is 3-7. But I think it is definitely a hard match up
    Under stress you will not rise to your expectations, you will fall to your level of training.
  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 10,226
    edited September 2016
    delete
    [SFV] Laura (Sakura, Cody?) [3S] Alex, Ken
    [Xrd] Leo [BBCF] Bullet
    [UNIEL] Orie [T7] Claudio
    [MvCI] Thanos and something else
  • zektbackzektback Joined: Posts: 354
    edited September 2016
    I see Laura vs Cammy as a 4-6 but no more than that. The MU really isn't that different from Ryu or Ken except for the better neutral and the lack of fireballs for Cammy. Her linearity and the low health/stun make the MU relatively unstressful.
    The only 3-7 for Laura is Chun and potentially Guile (I'm not sure though, what can he really do besides throwing booms all day?)

    With Guile throwing the booms its all he really needs to do since his will recover quickly, so it makes using EX Elbow a bit more risky if youre not at a good space. Plus he can use his like a shield like Laura and walk foward, but his will go fully across the screen. Laura can't jump because of the Flash Kick and his other AA, and his normals have better range than hers. If his V-Skill is charged he can get in on Laura rather easily, so it puts Laura in a bad space. I agree with the a 3.5-6.5 (but I guess just 3-7 for the sake of the forum) because it is really hard to get in on Guile, especially if Guile has meter and the Laura player has to constantly worry about an EX Flash Kick that will force her to restart the process all over again.

    I still think Cammy is 3-7 against Laura. The only thing helping is Cammys low health, but Laura doesnt have any option that can be a threat against her and cant punish her at all unless it was a DP. You basically have to luck out and hope you did the right thing.

    Zangeif
    is in the realm of a 3.5-6.5 (I want to say so badly 3-7 but thats just the pettiness in me lol). Everything she does put her in the range to be grabbed since her moves have short range and move her foward. No FB unless at full screen away since he can dash and press s.hk and will CC her since her start up is too slow. No jumping because he can swat her out with Lariat and st.lp, no elbow use at all since she'll just be SPD'd, and his cr.lp just shuts down alot of her getting in options and pushes her so far out. If he gets full bar Laura has to take an extreme amount of caution. I don't really see what option Laura has to do here.

    Ive played more against Alex, and its really just a toss up between the two. Alex has longer range, but Laura can wail on Alex when she gets in. So to be honest its a 5-5, each has things the other doesnt want to deal with.

    I don't know what to say about Karin honestly. I mean yeah she has a metered DP, but I think the real threat comes from her long and safe normals, mainly just the use of cr.mp, cr.mk, and st.mk. It can be complete hell for Laura. and she can hesitate to throw a FB because of Karin's overhead, but that's pretty easy to bait and punish hard, especially if Laura uses the lp version. Karin's V-Trigger doesnt really mean anything if you just V-Reversal out of it so it's not really that much of a threat. I definitely dont fear the match up anymore as more-so it can be very aggravating.

    At the end of it all as stated before, Laura can truly shine if she faces against someone with no invincible reversal.
  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 10,226
    3-7 vs Cammy and 3.5-6.5 vs Zangief look to me way off. The only way I can explain that is that we're using two totally different scales, in which case according to your scale Chun and Guile should be at least 2-8. I think in this game 3-7 are very rare and mostly fueled by the personal feelings of mains that struggle in a particular MU - and everyone tends to downplay his own main anyway.

    Most of what you're telling about Cammy and Zangief is just theory fighting. Of course Cammy can DP everything Laura does and Laura can't do the same, of course Gief can Lariat every jump in or grab you out of blocked elbows (but then again, every single character can), but if those things happen it just means you're not respecting enough or your jumps are too predictable. I don't even see why you should mention Gief's CA since it's literally the same thing against every character.
    Gief is one of the few characters against which you can actually zone with her fireball. Even his armored moves can do nothing against 3-hitting charged fireballs, and since he has to commit to jumps more than you do and he has a huge hitbox you can catch him in the air easily with H bolt (unless he has meter for the EX air SPD). The real issue with Gief is rather that you're not allowed to whiff any normal because it means entering his L/EX SPD range; you should either be very careful while playing footsies or shield yourself with fireballs at the right range.
    There's already enough tournament evidence of Laura players winning sets against Cammy so the MU is definitely far from impossible. To me it doesn't look nearly as hard as Ryu, a good Guile or Chun and it's actually closer to Karin (which is somewhere around 5/5.5 to me), more streamlined and with smaller damage output but with definitely better defensive options.
    [SFV] Laura (Sakura, Cody?) [3S] Alex, Ken
    [Xrd] Leo [BBCF] Bullet
    [UNIEL] Orie [T7] Claudio
    [MvCI] Thanos and something else
  • midnight_carnivalmidnight_carnival Joined: Posts: 70


    I main cammy and I mostly agree with necro's list. Sim feels a bit weird at times but that's because my friend is a really intelligent player. I find sim players to be easy if they just sit back and let you whiff punish all day but a really smart one that knows how to get in and out can be quite a pain for her. However when you do get in I think he gets destroyed by cammy. I do think laura fairs a bit better than Necro is giving her credit for. Primarily due to how fast she stuns if she gets started, which is how myself and most of the good cammy's I've seen lose that matchup. I'm certain she has an advantage for sure but her stun output is high and cammy is easy to stun while also not having the health to sustain that kind of damage. In addition she does have high burst damage with v-trigger, but its not the v-trigger that chun, balrog, or necal have that could help her come back from a huge health deficit consistently. I do think its 6 - 4 or 5.5 - 4.5 in cammy's favor but laura definitely can edge it out. Other than that its spot on I really only have trouble with ryu (if they turtle), birdie (if I can't corner him), and gief (from everywhere).
  • NecrotrophicNecrotrophic Isn't a communist. Joined: Posts: 5,938
    I played a few hit and run style of Laura's, strangely I think that's the way laura should play the matchup.
    Northeast PA
    570 Necro
  • zektbackzektback Joined: Posts: 354


    I main cammy and I mostly agree with necro's list. Sim feels a bit weird at times but that's because my friend is a really intelligent player. I find sim players to be easy if they just sit back and let you whiff punish all day but a really smart one that knows how to get in and out can be quite a pain for her. However when you do get in I think he gets destroyed by cammy. I do think laura fairs a bit better than Necro is giving her credit for. Primarily due to how fast she stuns if she gets started, which is how myself and most of the good cammy's I've seen lose that matchup. I'm certain she has an advantage for sure but her stun output is high and cammy is easy to stun while also not having the health to sustain that kind of damage. In addition she does have high burst damage with v-trigger, but its not the v-trigger that chun, balrog, or necal have that could help her come back from a huge health deficit consistently. I do think its 6 - 4 or 5.5 - 4.5 in cammy's favor but laura definitely can edge it out. Other than that its spot on I really only have trouble with ryu (if they turtle), birdie (if I can't corner him), and gief (from everywhere).

    ohh thanks for this!
  • QuarkQuark Joined: Posts: 4,107
    edited September 2016
    I may have said this already in the other thread, but I am curious about the reasoning behind Alex and Mika being 6-4 MUs for Sim, as well as Karin being a 5-5 MU. I have only heard Sim players talk about these as bad matchups.

    edit: according to OceanMachine Laura beats Sim as well

    "Please understand, I never had a secret chart
    To get me to the heart of this or any other matter"
  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 10,226
    Quark wrote: »
    edit: according to OceanMachine Laura beats Sim as well

    Not really according to me but to most Laura players. I was having some issues at the very beginning, but as soon as I figured out that Laura has the tools to shut down most of Sim's ground game it became much easier. He won't throw any far normal out as long as a fireball is out or that she has meter for EX bolt (probably the main threat for Sim). He still has the same issue as Cammy of being a frail character against someone that can build stun very fast, and on top of that his teleport isn't throw invincible on first frames, making him vulnerable to meaty throws. The MU plays imho a bit like Nash in that he will run most of the time but at the end she will make him her grappling bud.
    [SFV] Laura (Sakura, Cody?) [3S] Alex, Ken
    [Xrd] Leo [BBCF] Bullet
    [UNIEL] Orie [T7] Claudio
    [MvCI] Thanos and something else
  • SmokeMaxXSmokeMaxX T.O. of A.R.K. Joined: Posts: 7,974
    I don't think Birdie beats Cammy 6-4 at all. I think it's even.
  • CipherCipher Catchphraser Joined: Posts: 1,889
    SmokeMaxX wrote: »
    I don't think Birdie beats Cammy 6-4 at all. I think it's even.

    Don't say this loud!
    Actually why is Ryu-Cammy 6-4? Wasn't it 5-5 too?
    SteamId, leave a comment before adding!
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  • SmokeMaxXSmokeMaxX T.O. of A.R.K. Joined: Posts: 7,974
    edited September 2016
    Cipher wrote: »
    SmokeMaxX wrote: »
    I don't think Birdie beats Cammy 6-4 at all. I think it's even.

    Don't say this loud!
    Actually why is Ryu-Cammy 6-4? Wasn't it 5-5 too?
    Lol, I'd say it loud even if Birdie won 7-3. I want Birdie buffs in Season 2!
  • FrozteyFroztey Break the Cuffs Joined: Posts: 9,994 mod
    What's the Alex vs. Vega match-up down as, 5-5? Fuck no, that's a 6-4 to Claw at least
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 57,842 mod
    Birdie vs Cammy theoretically would be even as Cammy just has a ton of tools that stop his V Skill. His V Skill is his main way to buff the use of his otherwise more gimmicky special moves and she can always remove that quickly with many of her body hurling tools on reaction.

    Ain't nothin, Capcom's ruthless still producin.  Cut em a check or find yoself toothless.  Keep it shill with no confusin.  Niggas say I'm shill...they ain't hard I can prove it YEEEAH


  • DimeDime Wasting time Joined: Posts: 11,052
    edited September 2016
    I still don't think people are using most v triggers optimally. There are a few that are optimal or close to it, like Chun and cammy, but others like birdie, Ryu, Laura, maybe rashid, guile,ken, that have more to them than meets the eye.

    As an example, chuns still need to start absorbing fireballs with bhp in v trigger, and they still need to start applying fhk in v trigger better as its a combo without needing CH.

    There are lots of these kinds of things going on with other v triggers as well, but lots of people are only using them for their pop. Ryu as an example, his v trigger gives him the bets fireball in the game, but at the price of v meter, well when I use Ryu, instead of just firing off fireballs as fats as possible to maximize how many I get out, instead I try to just fire them like super imbalanced pokes that my opponent either respects, or gets hit by. I've found ryus v trigger to be pretty decent TBH. Not terribly good, but not bad either.
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • zektbackzektback Joined: Posts: 354
    @OceanMachine Hey can you explain the Ibuki match up with Laura? Wouldnt it lean into Ibuki's favor with the kunais and DP?
  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 10,226
    edited September 2016
    zektback wrote: »
    OceanMachine Hey can you explain the Ibuki match up with Laura? Wouldnt it lean into Ibuki's favor with the kunais and DP?

    Maybe, but both kunais and DPs come in limited stock and she would rather keep the bar for EX kunais than spend it for DPs. Laura has overall better normals but the best of Ibuki's normals is airborne and crushes lows, which means you can't grab or hit her low for free; Ibuki's command dashes can cross-up but Laura's dashes are much safer; and Ibuki's floaty jump is both deceiving and easier to AA than other jumps. And then there's always those 900 HP/900 stun that weigh heavy against Laura.
    I think they're similar rushdown/mixup characters and the weaknesses of one are counterbalanced by those of the other. Who will win is determined by who is more patient and who falls less for the opponent's gimmicks.
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  • CipherCipher Catchphraser Joined: Posts: 1,889
    Birdie vs Cammy theoretically would be even as Cammy just has a ton of tools that stop his V Skill. His V Skill is his main way to buff the use of his otherwise more gimmicky special moves and she can always remove that quickly with many of her body hurling tools on reaction.

    We allready know how this ends, we went trough this in the MU thread like 3 times.

    I personaly think the MU is even,just because they can both fight each other effectively.
    Cammy has the tools to tell Birdie not to fuck around and up close she is at the advantage,since Birdies defence outside of V-Trigger is absolut bad.
    It's a bit tricky to fight Birdie in the neutral,but he has the same problem as Chun has vs Cammy,once Cammy gets 1 Bar it becomes problematic to play the neutral,since you always have to fear the treat of the EX Divekick.
    It's not like Cammy got the tools to beat Birdie in the neutral too, but noone cares about them either.
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  • DimeDime Wasting time Joined: Posts: 11,052
    edited September 2016
    Wrong thread
    Post edited by Dime on
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • MessatsMessats Joined: Posts: 275
    edited September 2016
    Froztey wrote: »
    What's the Alex vs. Vega match-up down as, 5-5? Fuck no, that's a 6-4 to Claw at least

    Most Vega players believe Alex wins this. I'm with them.
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  • NecrotrophicNecrotrophic Isn't a communist. Joined: Posts: 5,938
    Birdie vs Cammy theoretically would be even as Cammy just has a ton of tools that stop his V Skill. His V Skill is his main way to buff the use of his otherwise more gimmicky special moves and she can always remove that quickly with many of her body hurling tools on reaction.

    Most of Cammy's damage comes from frame traps or shimmy.

    Birdie has no reason to press anything during pressure. He wants to take the throw and be reset to an advantageous position. While cammy is trying to get back in, one screw up can lead to him getting more damage than she does.

    His v skill isn't really the threat in this matchup, at least not always. It's the damage conversion off of everything, and the very low practical damage cammy has because he can just take a throw. When you factor in health, there's no way cammy can last as long at this. Birdie is one of the few characters that completely out footsies cammy, so when he takes a throw its a really bad situation for her, whereas usually, she can reset to neutral and have an advantage still.

    The best thing cammy has in this matchup is instant ex dive. But there are good tools to deal with that. In the case of getting hit, just take the throw after the reset. On block either vreversal or take the throw. If cammy needs to use meter just to get something like a throw I don't see how this matchup can be even.

    I'm sure any decent cammy would agree, and basically everyone in the cammy forum says the same thing about the mu.
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