SFV Matchup Chart. S2 Boxer vs Guile; Urien vs Gief; Ibuki vs Sim; Ryu vs Vega; Juri vs FANG

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  • midnight_carnivalmidnight_carnival Joined: Posts: 70
    Cipher could you expound on why you don't think the birdie matchup is slightly in his favor. Most cammy's in the forum do agree that while she does really well against the top half of the cast she struggles in a few matchups with characters in the tier below her. Necro does raise some valid points...Birdie does out neutral cammy perhaps until she has v-trigger. Sure cammy does have the tools to get around it but because of her low health/high stun and his high health/high damage you tend to have to play more perfectly than you would against some of the other cast. That's why i think defensive ryu's (like daigo style, I actually think she does well if the ryu plays more like tokido), birdie, and Geif are her worst matchups. While I do think they aren't so bad that she can't win them I just feel as though she has to do a bit more work than she normally would. For instance consider your own experience..have you never played against geif and gotten significantly more hits only to guess wrong once or twice and lose. That's cammy's weakness and most cammy players feel that those three chars are in a very good position to exploit it. Or do you feel as though cammy only has 5-5's or better across the board? I don't think she has a 3 - 7 against any character (as I don't feel there are many of those in this game) and if she does its only geif, but i do think she is in a less than desirable position in those matchups.
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 57,984 mod
    edited September 2016
    People talk about Cammy's low health and limited options vs Gief and Birdie, but you have to look at how it would neutrally only get worse with other characters. It's not like Mika is going to have better neutral vs them and she has no DP either. At least Cammy still has an invincible DP to make reads against buttons in the neutral and escape a situation without sacrificing her meter. It's a risk cuz CC punish if blocked, but DPs still hit often enough so it's there. Like Mika isn't going to have a better matchup vs Birdie than Cammy because she has a stocky 950 health. She has slower walk speed, no DP to call out abuse of his big buttons and needs meter to reliably shut down his V Skill options.


    Cammy's buttons are too good to have a 3-7 vs Gief and I personally think the issue is Cammys still need to explore their button options vs him. I keep seeing Cammy players say they have so much trouble vs his jab when jabs have terrible priority due to the trade system any way. Gief can kill you in 2 or 3 moves once he has V Trigger and Super regardless of your health value. That's just how he's designed and things like EX SPD hurt big unless you're like a 1050 health character.



    Cammy has high damage output with resources. People say that Cammy basically has 2 supers because of the damage she can get off her V Trigger. Her lower health is offset by the potential damage she can do each round, a meterless DP to call out predictable offense/footsies and generally some of the best overall footsie and anti air tools in the game.

    Cammy's 900 stun (only character with 900 stun) and poor V Reversal is more of her issue than her health. Karin, Ibuki and Sim also have 900 health/950 stun and they're finding ways to work and or place highly in tournaments. The only thing you can really call out about Cammy's stamina is the 900 stun which puts her in stun range a bit faster than the other 900 health characters. Yet, she's the only 900 health character with a meterless DP that pushes the opponent far enough away to reduce your stun. Her V Reversal is really negative on block and has short range which is why you don't see people use it much and can put her at more of a liability for the stun. Which is why Cammy players usually just bank on having that call out with the DP instead any way.

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  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 10,292
    Cammy's 900 stun (only character with 900 stun) and poor V Reversal is more of her issue than her health. Karin, Ibuki and Sim also have 900 health/950 stun and they're finding ways to work and or place highly in tournaments.

    I thought they all had 900 stun too but indeed you are correct... but Cammy still places better in tournament, probably because she has no other real flaws besides linearity.
    I'm starting to think Cammy is the real SF5 Akuma. Hell, she even has the Demon Flip.
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  • NecrotrophicNecrotrophic Isn't a communist. Joined: Posts: 5,945
    People talk about Cammy's low health and limited options vs Gief and Birdie, but you have to look at how it would neutrally only get worse with other characters. It's not like Mika is going to have better neutral vs them and she has no DP either. At least Cammy still has an invincible DP to make reads against buttons in the neutral and escape a situation without sacrificing her meter. It's a risk cuz CC punish if blocked, but DPs still hit often enough so it's there. Like Mika isn't going to have a better matchup vs Birdie than Cammy because she has a stocky 950 health. She has slower walk speed, no DP to call out abuse of his big buttons and needs meter to reliably shut down his V Skill options.


    Cammy's buttons are too good to have a 3-7 vs Gief and I personally think the issue is Cammys still need to explore their button options vs him. I keep seeing Cammy players say they have so much trouble vs his jab when jabs have terrible priority due to the trade system any way. Gief can kill you in 2 or 3 moves once he has V Trigger and Super regardless of your health value. That's just how he's designed and things like EX SPD hurt big unless you're like a 1050 health character.



    Cammy has high damage output with resources. People say that Cammy basically has 2 supers because of the damage she can get off her V Trigger. Her lower health is offset by the potential damage she can do each round, a meterless DP to call out predictable offense/footsies and generally some of the best overall footsie and anti air tools in the game.

    Cammy's 900 stun (only character with 900 stun) and poor V Reversal is more of her issue than her health. Karin, Ibuki and Sim also have 900 health/950 stun and they're finding ways to work and or place highly in tournaments. The only thing you can really call out about Cammy's stamina is the 900 stun which puts her in stun range a bit faster than the other 900 health characters. Yet, she's the only 900 health character with a meterless DP that pushes the opponent far enough away to reduce your stun. Her V Reversal is really negative on block and has short range which is why you don't see people use it much and can put her at more of a liability for the stun. Which is why Cammy players usually just bank on having that call out with the DP instead any way.

    Mika is scarier when she gets in IMO. Everything about cammy is shimmy/frame trap/throw. Birdie doesn't care about throw, so the other two fall apart if the birdie refuses to tech or press buttons during pressure
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  • MachoRhombusMachoRhombus Joined: Posts: 2,919
    Mika is scarier because of the command grab, Birdie reading it and neutral jumping it is more worrysome than against most characters because that shit is going to hurt and he will push you back a ton which is actually an issue in that matchup because his neutral is fucking good and he'll get time to setup the can or the banana.

    If Mika claps him into the corner with full meter he's fucking dead though. I'll give you that.
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  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 37,140 mod
    Speaking of Cammy, apparently Xian considers her F.A.N.G.'s worse match up.
  • midnight_carnivalmidnight_carnival Joined: Posts: 70
    lol well apparently to you guys shes the best character in the game..as those are the only matchups that cammy mains tend to think she has trouble. To say that someone isn't exploring their buttons versus a character is quite an assumption. If you have no trouble vs. those characters and your a cammy main then by all means post a matchup of vid to display the key highlights but don't discount my opinion just to say were not doing our homework. Iv'e asked cobelcog and hurricane on stream personally and even they believe those characters give her trouble. If you read my post i said i doubt that she has any 7 - 3's but i do think that there are matchups that she's at a disadvantage. Furthermore Cammy's biggest weakness isn't the stun or v-reversal imo its how linear she is and the fact that throws pretty much just reset the situation for her until you get to the corner (ie she gets nothing off of them but corner carry). She's a very honest character that has some trouble when you just want to hold down back and throw out lows like (ryu's cr. mp to challenge shimmy's and divekicks) I never said she can't get around the matchups I just don't think there in her favor. At best their even but I do not believe that she has only even or good matchups across the board.
  • midnight_carnivalmidnight_carnival Joined: Posts: 70
    And of course karin works it out I wish cammy had that amazing ass sweep giefs have enough to worry about with that and her mk. And Mika is mika...that character can beat anyone of her matchups if you mess up and she makes you play marvel in the corner. The problem with Gief is that you have to take the necalli matchup approach and kinda shuffle outside of his cc. hp zone so you can whiff punish and get started. Unlike necalli he has a move that moves him forward and a very far reaching command grab. Most times cammy's are attempting to take advantage of that sweet spot where she wants to be and your walking back and forth and you get grabbed, and like you said earlier Geif is designed to maul you when he gets in, and I think only ibuki takes a mauling as bad as cammy does. Now here's where the health problem comes in...you have an invincible reversal, but they may be accounting for that and Geif has the health to afford a few bad guesses on a DP. Most Geifs are happy to take a dp or two or three just to get in so they can kill her, and they can afford to do that. So Devil Jin would you put that matchup in cammy's favor,,i personally only think its a 6-4 for geif which isn't that bad honestly but do you think its 5 -5 or something and if so what do you feel her negative matchups are.
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 57,984 mod
    Yeah im saying the same thing you are in that there will be struggles for her in those matches, but with her tools they're still manageable and 4 to 6 at worst. There are characters that definitely struggle more vs Gief and Birdie than Cammy

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  • midnight_carnivalmidnight_carnival Joined: Posts: 70
    That's fair I can agree with that lol except Ryu that guy is just amazing but I don't mind lol someone taught me to just backtech against him alot then quickrise everytime to throw him off and it works wonders.
  • QuarkQuark Joined: Posts: 4,125
    edited September 2016
    d3v wrote: »
    Speaking of Cammy, apparently Xian considers her F.A.N.G.'s worse match up.

    Well Xian's gotta be some kinda scrub because my Prima Games SFV Official Strategy Guide clearly states that Cammy "has especially difficult matchups against Dhalsim and FANG" =)

    Sorry, just had to get it off my chest that I actually spent money on that POS. Carry on.

    Post edited by Quark on
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  • SmokeMaxXSmokeMaxX T.O. of A.R.K. Joined: Posts: 7,974
    A few things to keep in mind with Cammy vs. Birdie:

    1) It's extremely common for him to block her DP and not be able to reach her with st. RH crush counter.
    2) Birdie beating her in footsies is arguable at best and IMO just wrong. While you can compare hitboxes and possibly find Birdie's being longer than hers, you have to remember that if she touches him once, she screen (and possibly corner) carries and plus her buttons are significantly faster than his. Example: Cammy's st. hp is 6 frames. Cr. mp is 5 frames. Cr. mk is 7 frames. Cr. lp is 3 frames. Birdie's fastest normal is 4 frames (super short range), st. mp is 7 frames, st. mk is 8 frames, and st. hk is 12 frames. I mean yeah, he does have a 10 frame heavy normal, but it's -9 on block so congrats? When it comes to footsies, I think Birdie is the number 1 crush countered character because he either has shitty hitboxes, slow ass normals (and/or lower priority than heavies) or a combination of all of the above.
    3) So anyway, I keep hearing take the throw, take the throw. But yeah, remember how I just said she carries you across the screen every hit? You can't just "take the throw" in the corner because all that shit loops there. Also, if you're content with just taking the throw, then you're probably not pushing buttons to her her out of her vskill that is + on block.
    4) Birdie's best footsies normals are also the ones where you can jump in on him for free if he sticks them out. They do not recover in time for him to anti-air you in that situation. He can block, but you get a free in so it doesn't matter.
  • NecrotrophicNecrotrophic Isn't a communist. Joined: Posts: 5,945
    SmokeMaxX wrote: »
    A few things to keep in mind with Cammy vs. Birdie:

    1) It's extremely common for him to block her DP and not be able to reach her with st. RH crush counter.
    2) Birdie beating her in footsies is arguable at best and IMO just wrong. While you can compare hitboxes and possibly find Birdie's being longer than hers, you have to remember that if she touches him once, she screen (and possibly corner) carries and plus her buttons are significantly faster than his. Example: Cammy's st. hp is 6 frames. Cr. mp is 5 frames. Cr. mk is 7 frames. Cr. lp is 3 frames. Birdie's fastest normal is 4 frames (super short range), st. mp is 7 frames, st. mk is 8 frames, and st. hk is 12 frames. I mean yeah, he does have a 10 frame heavy normal, but it's -9 on block so congrats? When it comes to footsies, I think Birdie is the number 1 crush countered character because he either has shitty hitboxes, slow ass normals (and/or lower priority than heavies) or a combination of all of the above.
    3) So anyway, I keep hearing take the throw, take the throw. But yeah, remember how I just said she carries you across the screen every hit? You can't just "take the throw" in the corner because all that shit loops there. Also, if you're content with just taking the throw, then you're probably not pushing buttons to her her out of her vskill that is + on block.
    4) Birdie's best footsies normals are also the ones where you can jump in on him for free if he sticks them out. They do not recover in time for him to anti-air you in that situation. He can block, but you get a free in so it doesn't matter.

    There's no range where cammy can safely play looking for a whiff punish that's good for her.

    Cammy does not have a throw loop. She has one off of back throw but you only get one rep. She has to walk forward to get another throw.
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  • QuarkQuark Joined: Posts: 4,125
    edited September 2016
    Geif is designed to maul you when he gets in, and I think only ibuki takes a mauling as bad as cammy does.

    Vega? Karin? Sim? Nash?

    Sure, Cammy's stun rating is worse than all of them and her health is worse than Vega and Nash. On the other hand, she has a meterless invincible reversal and a 3f jab that can confirm into stuff. The other characters listed have at most 1 of those. Sim and Nash have neither.

    I would think those 2 defensive options win Cammy more games than 50-100 extra health or stun would.

    edit:
    FANG probably gets mauled harder than Cammy too
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  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 57,984 mod
    edited September 2016
    SmokeMaxX wrote: »
    A few things to keep in mind with Cammy vs. Birdie:

    1) It's extremely common for him to block her DP and not be able to reach her with st. RH crush counter.
    2) Birdie beating her in footsies is arguable at best and IMO just wrong. While you can compare hitboxes and possibly find Birdie's being longer than hers, you have to remember that if she touches him once, she screen (and possibly corner) carries and plus her buttons are significantly faster than his. Example: Cammy's st. hp is 6 frames. Cr. mp is 5 frames. Cr. mk is 7 frames. Cr. lp is 3 frames. Birdie's fastest normal is 4 frames (super short range), st. mp is 7 frames, st. mk is 8 frames, and st. hk is 12 frames. I mean yeah, he does have a 10 frame heavy normal, but it's -9 on block so congrats? When it comes to footsies, I think Birdie is the number 1 crush countered character because he either has shitty hitboxes, slow ass normals (and/or lower priority than heavies) or a combination of all of the above.
    3) So anyway, I keep hearing take the throw, take the throw. But yeah, remember how I just said she carries you across the screen every hit? You can't just "take the throw" in the corner because all that shit loops there. Also, if you're content with just taking the throw, then you're probably not pushing buttons to her her out of her vskill that is + on block.
    4) Birdie's best footsies normals are also the ones where you can jump in on him for free if he sticks them out. They do not recover in time for him to anti-air you in that situation. He can block, but you get a free in so it doesn't matter.

    There's no range where cammy can safely play looking for a whiff punish that's good for her.

    Cammy does not have a throw loop. She has one off of back throw but you only get one rep. She has to walk forward to get another throw.

    He was talking about the corner. Everyone can throw loop once you touch the corner.



    Ibuki has a 3 frame jab, 3 frame special, ex dp and v reversal with decent invincibility. She can keep from getting mauled. If she had 950 health no one would even be worried about her on defense. But 900 health I think is just below average for this game. It isn't a huge liability like the 750 and 800 health was in SFIV

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  • LordWilliam1234LordWilliam1234 Lab Cat Joined: Posts: 22,447
    SmokeMaxX wrote: »
    A few things to keep in mind with Cammy vs. Birdie:

    1) It's extremely common for him to block her DP and not be able to reach her with st. RH crush counter.
    2) Birdie beating her in footsies is arguable at best and IMO just wrong. While you can compare hitboxes and possibly find Birdie's being longer than hers, you have to remember that if she touches him once, she screen (and possibly corner) carries and plus her buttons are significantly faster than his. Example: Cammy's st. hp is 6 frames. Cr. mp is 5 frames. Cr. mk is 7 frames. Cr. lp is 3 frames. Birdie's fastest normal is 4 frames (super short range), st. mp is 7 frames, st. mk is 8 frames, and st. hk is 12 frames. I mean yeah, he does have a 10 frame heavy normal, but it's -9 on block so congrats? When it comes to footsies, I think Birdie is the number 1 crush countered character because he either has shitty hitboxes, slow ass normals (and/or lower priority than heavies) or a combination of all of the above.
    3) So anyway, I keep hearing take the throw, take the throw. But yeah, remember how I just said she carries you across the screen every hit? You can't just "take the throw" in the corner because all that shit loops there. Also, if you're content with just taking the throw, then you're probably not pushing buttons to her her out of her vskill that is + on block.
    4) Birdie's best footsies normals are also the ones where you can jump in on him for free if he sticks them out. They do not recover in time for him to anti-air you in that situation. He can block, but you get a free in so it doesn't matter.

    There's no range where cammy can safely play looking for a whiff punish that's good for her.

    Cammy does not have a throw loop. She has one off of back throw but you only get one rep. She has to walk forward to get another throw.

    He was talking about the corner. Everyone can throw loop once you touch the corner.

    Except Juri.
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  • NecrotrophicNecrotrophic Isn't a communist. Joined: Posts: 5,945
    SmokeMaxX wrote: »
    A few things to keep in mind with Cammy vs. Birdie:

    1) It's extremely common for him to block her DP and not be able to reach her with st. RH crush counter.
    2) Birdie beating her in footsies is arguable at best and IMO just wrong. While you can compare hitboxes and possibly find Birdie's being longer than hers, you have to remember that if she touches him once, she screen (and possibly corner) carries and plus her buttons are significantly faster than his. Example: Cammy's st. hp is 6 frames. Cr. mp is 5 frames. Cr. mk is 7 frames. Cr. lp is 3 frames. Birdie's fastest normal is 4 frames (super short range), st. mp is 7 frames, st. mk is 8 frames, and st. hk is 12 frames. I mean yeah, he does have a 10 frame heavy normal, but it's -9 on block so congrats? When it comes to footsies, I think Birdie is the number 1 crush countered character because he either has shitty hitboxes, slow ass normals (and/or lower priority than heavies) or a combination of all of the above.
    3) So anyway, I keep hearing take the throw, take the throw. But yeah, remember how I just said she carries you across the screen every hit? You can't just "take the throw" in the corner because all that shit loops there. Also, if you're content with just taking the throw, then you're probably not pushing buttons to her her out of her vskill that is + on block.
    4) Birdie's best footsies normals are also the ones where you can jump in on him for free if he sticks them out. They do not recover in time for him to anti-air you in that situation. He can block, but you get a free in so it doesn't matter.

    There's no range where cammy can safely play looking for a whiff punish that's good for her.

    Cammy does not have a throw loop. She has one off of back throw but you only get one rep. She has to walk forward to get another throw.

    He was talking about the corner. Everyone can throw loop once you touch the corner.



    Ibuki has a 3 frame jab, 3 frame special, ex dp and v reversal with decent invincibility. She can keep from getting mauled.

    So was I. Cammy doesn't have a corner throw loop. She has to walk forward a good bit
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  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 57,984 mod
    SmokeMaxX wrote: »
    A few things to keep in mind with Cammy vs. Birdie:

    1) It's extremely common for him to block her DP and not be able to reach her with st. RH crush counter.
    2) Birdie beating her in footsies is arguable at best and IMO just wrong. While you can compare hitboxes and possibly find Birdie's being longer than hers, you have to remember that if she touches him once, she screen (and possibly corner) carries and plus her buttons are significantly faster than his. Example: Cammy's st. hp is 6 frames. Cr. mp is 5 frames. Cr. mk is 7 frames. Cr. lp is 3 frames. Birdie's fastest normal is 4 frames (super short range), st. mp is 7 frames, st. mk is 8 frames, and st. hk is 12 frames. I mean yeah, he does have a 10 frame heavy normal, but it's -9 on block so congrats? When it comes to footsies, I think Birdie is the number 1 crush countered character because he either has shitty hitboxes, slow ass normals (and/or lower priority than heavies) or a combination of all of the above.
    3) So anyway, I keep hearing take the throw, take the throw. But yeah, remember how I just said she carries you across the screen every hit? You can't just "take the throw" in the corner because all that shit loops there. Also, if you're content with just taking the throw, then you're probably not pushing buttons to her her out of her vskill that is + on block.
    4) Birdie's best footsies normals are also the ones where you can jump in on him for free if he sticks them out. They do not recover in time for him to anti-air you in that situation. He can block, but you get a free in so it doesn't matter.

    There's no range where cammy can safely play looking for a whiff punish that's good for her.

    Cammy does not have a throw loop. She has one off of back throw but you only get one rep. She has to walk forward to get another throw.

    He was talking about the corner. Everyone can throw loop once you touch the corner.

    Except Juri.

    Juri sux hue hue hue.


    I still need to learn her. Shes got a lot of good tools.





    SmokeMaxX wrote: »
    A few things to keep in mind with Cammy vs. Birdie:

    1) It's extremely common for him to block her DP and not be able to reach her with st. RH crush counter.
    2) Birdie beating her in footsies is arguable at best and IMO just wrong. While you can compare hitboxes and possibly find Birdie's being longer than hers, you have to remember that if she touches him once, she screen (and possibly corner) carries and plus her buttons are significantly faster than his. Example: Cammy's st. hp is 6 frames. Cr. mp is 5 frames. Cr. mk is 7 frames. Cr. lp is 3 frames. Birdie's fastest normal is 4 frames (super short range), st. mp is 7 frames, st. mk is 8 frames, and st. hk is 12 frames. I mean yeah, he does have a 10 frame heavy normal, but it's -9 on block so congrats? When it comes to footsies, I think Birdie is the number 1 crush countered character because he either has shitty hitboxes, slow ass normals (and/or lower priority than heavies) or a combination of all of the above.
    3) So anyway, I keep hearing take the throw, take the throw. But yeah, remember how I just said she carries you across the screen every hit? You can't just "take the throw" in the corner because all that shit loops there. Also, if you're content with just taking the throw, then you're probably not pushing buttons to her her out of her vskill that is + on block.
    4) Birdie's best footsies normals are also the ones where you can jump in on him for free if he sticks them out. They do not recover in time for him to anti-air you in that situation. He can block, but you get a free in so it doesn't matter.

    There's no range where cammy can safely play looking for a whiff punish that's good for her.

    Cammy does not have a throw loop. She has one off of back throw but you only get one rep. She has to walk forward to get another throw.

    He was talking about the corner. Everyone can throw loop once you touch the corner.



    Ibuki has a 3 frame jab, 3 frame special, ex dp and v reversal with decent invincibility. She can keep from getting mauled.

    So was I. Cammy doesn't have a corner throw loop. She has to walk forward a good bit

    I dunno, I think she has about the same push back as Ibuki does from forward throw in the corner. If you say so though.

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  • QuarkQuark Joined: Posts: 4,125
    I still need to learn her. Shes got a lot of good tools.

    Mind elaborating on this a little bit? I'm thinking of picking her up for shits and giggles but I haven't played/watched any good Juris yet so I'm not sure what her gameplan is or what she excels at.
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  • SmokeMaxXSmokeMaxX T.O. of A.R.K. Joined: Posts: 7,974
    edited September 2016
    SmokeMaxX wrote: »
    A few things to keep in mind with Cammy vs. Birdie:

    1) It's extremely common for him to block her DP and not be able to reach her with st. RH crush counter.
    2) Birdie beating her in footsies is arguable at best and IMO just wrong. While you can compare hitboxes and possibly find Birdie's being longer than hers, you have to remember that if she touches him once, she screen (and possibly corner) carries and plus her buttons are significantly faster than his. Example: Cammy's st. hp is 6 frames. Cr. mp is 5 frames. Cr. mk is 7 frames. Cr. lp is 3 frames. Birdie's fastest normal is 4 frames (super short range), st. mp is 7 frames, st. mk is 8 frames, and st. hk is 12 frames. I mean yeah, he does have a 10 frame heavy normal, but it's -9 on block so congrats? When it comes to footsies, I think Birdie is the number 1 crush countered character because he either has shitty hitboxes, slow ass normals (and/or lower priority than heavies) or a combination of all of the above.
    3) So anyway, I keep hearing take the throw, take the throw. But yeah, remember how I just said she carries you across the screen every hit? You can't just "take the throw" in the corner because all that shit loops there. Also, if you're content with just taking the throw, then you're probably not pushing buttons to her her out of her vskill that is + on block.
    4) Birdie's best footsies normals are also the ones where you can jump in on him for free if he sticks them out. They do not recover in time for him to anti-air you in that situation. He can block, but you get a free in so it doesn't matter.

    There's no range where cammy can safely play looking for a whiff punish that's good for her.

    Cammy does not have a throw loop. She has one off of back throw but you only get one rep. She has to walk forward to get another throw.

    He was talking about the corner. Everyone can throw loop once you touch the corner.



    Ibuki has a 3 frame jab, 3 frame special, ex dp and v reversal with decent invincibility. She can keep from getting mauled.

    So was I. Cammy doesn't have a corner throw loop. She has to walk forward a good bit
    Guess the Japanese notes are wrong because I can't seem to recreate the throw loop they listed. Either way, if Birdie gets in the corner against Cammy, he basically loses.
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 57,984 mod
    edited September 2016
    Quark wrote: »
    I still need to learn her. Shes got a lot of good tools.

    Mind elaborating on this a little bit? I'm thinking of picking her up for shits and giggles but I haven't played/watched any good Juris yet so I'm not sure what her gameplan is or what she excels at.

    For a DLC character she has a lot of the basics you need. Meterless invincible anti air, EX reversal, 3 frame buttons (including the only other 3 frame low in the game), generally buttons that are better than most give credit for, good forward walk and other things that make her a lot better than Bison or Gief.

    She's good at controlling the mid range while also being very good at dealing with projectiles. She has a low profiling projectile that can sail under other projectiles while she can absorb the one flying at her. She doesn't get looping throw pressure due to the space that's created after her throw, but her throw has decent range and gives her opportunity to set up another store or offense. Her b+HK is really underrated and underused since it's essentially what would happen if Ryu's b+HK was cancelable on both hits.

    She also is the only character that can whiff cancel a special and then VTC (LK fuharenkyaku fireball) which allows her to very safely start up offense with her V Trigger.

    Ain't nothin, Capcom's ruthless still producin.  Cut em a check or find yoself toothless.  Keep it shill with no confusin.  Niggas say I'm shill...they ain't hard I can prove it YEEEAH


  • NecrotrophicNecrotrophic Isn't a communist. Joined: Posts: 5,945
    edited September 2016
    SmokeMaxX wrote: »
    SmokeMaxX wrote: »
    A few things to keep in mind with Cammy vs. Birdie:

    1) It's extremely common for him to block her DP and not be able to reach her with st. RH crush counter.
    2) Birdie beating her in footsies is arguable at best and IMO just wrong. While you can compare hitboxes and possibly find Birdie's being longer than hers, you have to remember that if she touches him once, she screen (and possibly corner) carries and plus her buttons are significantly faster than his. Example: Cammy's st. hp is 6 frames. Cr. mp is 5 frames. Cr. mk is 7 frames. Cr. lp is 3 frames. Birdie's fastest normal is 4 frames (super short range), st. mp is 7 frames, st. mk is 8 frames, and st. hk is 12 frames. I mean yeah, he does have a 10 frame heavy normal, but it's -9 on block so congrats? When it comes to footsies, I think Birdie is the number 1 crush countered character because he either has shitty hitboxes, slow ass normals (and/or lower priority than heavies) or a combination of all of the above.
    3) So anyway, I keep hearing take the throw, take the throw. But yeah, remember how I just said she carries you across the screen every hit? You can't just "take the throw" in the corner because all that shit loops there. Also, if you're content with just taking the throw, then you're probably not pushing buttons to her her out of her vskill that is + on block.
    4) Birdie's best footsies normals are also the ones where you can jump in on him for free if he sticks them out. They do not recover in time for him to anti-air you in that situation. He can block, but you get a free in so it doesn't matter.

    There's no range where cammy can safely play looking for a whiff punish that's good for her.

    Cammy does not have a throw loop. She has one off of back throw but you only get one rep. She has to walk forward to get another throw.

    He was talking about the corner. Everyone can throw loop once you touch the corner.



    Ibuki has a 3 frame jab, 3 frame special, ex dp and v reversal with decent invincibility. She can keep from getting mauled.

    So was I. Cammy doesn't have a corner throw loop. She has to walk forward a good bit
    Guess the Japanese notes are wrong because I can't seem to recreate the throw loop they listed. Either way, if Birdie gets in the corner against Cammy, he basically loses.

    She has an advantage there but it's not auto loss by any means. If she does a walk forward throw after a throw not only does she lose positioning, she's gonna get hurt bad.

    Cammy can meaty after a fthrow but it just takes one guess to screw all that up. Walking toward can actually be scary against a really good birdie, which I'm fortunate enough to have on my friends list

    Cammy straight up does not have a fthrow loop. She has a walk forward throw walk forward throw kinda thing. It's fast enough thst people get caught by it but it's slow enough that you can react when you're ready for it
    Northeast PA
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  • CipherCipher Catchphraser Joined: Posts: 1,904
    Cipher wrote: »
    We allready know how this ends, we went trough this in the MU thread like 3 times.

    As I said before, the same thing happend again like the last few times. I'm getting tired of it.

    Anyways.
    Cipher could you expound on why you don't think the birdie matchup is slightly in his favor. Most cammy's in the forum do agree that while she does really well against the top half of the cast she struggles in a few matchups with characters in the tier below her. Necro does raise some valid points...Birdie does out neutral cammy perhaps until she has v-trigger. Sure cammy does have the tools to get around it but because of her low health/high stun and his high health/high damage you tend to have to play more perfectly than you would against some of the other cast. That's why i think defensive ryu's (like daigo style, I actually think she does well if the ryu plays more like tokido), birdie, and Geif are her worst matchups. While I do think they aren't so bad that she can't win them I just feel as though she has to do a bit more work than she normally would. For instance consider your own experience..have you never played against geif and gotten significantly more hits only to guess wrong once or twice and lose. That's cammy's weakness and most cammy players feel that those three chars are in a very good position to exploit it. Or do you feel as though cammy only has 5-5's or better across the board? I don't think she has a 3 - 7 against any character (as I don't feel there are many of those in this game) and if she does its only geif, but i do think she is in a less than desirable position in those matchups.

    Necro said there is no range Cammy can safe whiffpunish Birdie.This is straight a lie.
    The minority of Birdies use st.hk in the neutral,most focus on cr.lp,st.mp and st.mk. If you stay at this range and you can whiffpunish him pretty easaly.
    Birdie might have a range advantage with some normals,but he lacks the movespeed to make use of it against a char with TopTier Walkspeed and range.
    Cammy also got st.hp, this move has not only the advantage because it's a heavy, it also has a disjoined hitbox,what makes it easier to "eat" a move with it.
    There is a range Cammy can play against Birdie,the other thing is, is the Birdie willing to use buttons or does he know that she can do this?
    I checked some of the Diamond Cammys (Valhalla,Osayu) and looked for Birdie and Zangief Matches.
    What I saw with Birdie was mainly a rushdown festival from both sides,Cammy basicly forces Birdie to play a different game,than he would play against other chars. His V-Skill is kinda pointless in this MU, EX Divekick is a huge treat for his midrange game and he can't use his hanging chain at all,since Cammy can punish it even from fullscreen. He has also absolutly no answer to her frametraps,unless he's in V-Trigger or wants to use his V-Meter, do I have to tell you that she can punish basicly everything she blocks? Even V-Trigger bullheads with their huge pushback can be punished with reversal arrows and H DP.
    If we look at Birdies normal damage he does with his mainwhiffpunish st.mp xx L/M bullhorn 200 damage. It's kinda pointless how much life you have against Birdie after 5-6 of these things every char will be dead.

    Comming to Zangief. What I saw was mainly, lets say interesting. I found a bunch of matches Osayu had against Itazan and it was interesting.
    Osayu lost the first match pretty badly, like real bad. But then he played completly different. The second match had only 2 jumps in total and both were perfect reads. Osayu just used the ground and outfootsied Gief so hard,that Itazan had no spot to attack. cr.lp was effective shut down by st.mp and he had no way to jump in, Osayu beat every dash perfect with st.lk. The entire match looked like Giefs worst nightmare.
    Of course Zangief only needs 3 good reads to kill Cammy,then again he only needs 3 good reads to kill every char.

    Cammys life doesn't matter shit in Birdie and especialy Zangiefs MU,because they will both kill every char in 2-3 errors regardless of how much health they have.

    You see, I don't belive simple bitching about MU's just because people lose it.
    It was the same in SFIV, at the beginning was everyone bitching how bad Poison was for Cammy,after a while they figured Poison out,learned how to deal with her.Out of all sudden the Mu was even, that was like the moment I scratched my head,because that was what I said since the launch of Ultra.

    I don't base this on my own experience,since I barely to never play these chars offline, but I do a lot of research and test situations and the options you can deal with them.
    It turns out that Cammys only flaw is her health/stun in the end. And health/stun are like 5% of a MU,while tools are 95%.

    Cammy does not have a throw loop. She has one off of back throw but you only get one rep. She has to walk forward to get another throw.

    For someone who tries to tell me he's better,you don't know how her throw works in the corner right?

    Cammy has a corner frametrap after every throw,it leaves her at the perfect space for a bunch of different options.
    You can either, walk up and throw again.
    walk up and press a button
    stand there and do st.hk
    f+hk
    taunt

    I prefere the taunt,since I love it to taunt.
    So she has all these wonderfull options and Birdies fastes button,is a 4f cr.lk.
    This is a situation were Birdie is absolutly fucked, his buttons are worthless at this range,his defence is non-existing(not that he ever had defence).
    You want to tell me you can't take advantage of one of Cammys best strenghs against a char who has abolutly no defence close up?
    Sure it's not a throwloop perse, but it's a 50/50 situation anyways,she can either walk forward and throw or walk forward and press a button or just press a button, her Fthrow leaves her at the perfect range for all of this.
    d3v wrote: »
    Speaking of Cammy, apparently Xian considers her F.A.N.G.'s worse match up.

    It's funny right?
    The prima Guide says Cammy has problems against Chars like Dhalsim and FANG,yet Cammy is the worst MU for these two.
    There can never be enough Waifus and I can never have enough of them!!!
    SteamId, leave a comment before adding!
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  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 57,984 mod
    Xian has been saying that about Fang for a while. Plus it's just generally objective that that matchup would be shit.

    Ain't nothin, Capcom's ruthless still producin.  Cut em a check or find yoself toothless.  Keep it shill with no confusin.  Niggas say I'm shill...they ain't hard I can prove it YEEEAH


  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 10,292
    Doesn't every single character have throw loops in the corner?
    [SFV] Laura (Sakura, Cody?) [3S] Alex, Ken
    [Xrd] Leo [BBCF] Bullet
    [UNIEL] Orie [T7] Claudio
    [MvCI] Thanos and something else
  • NecrotrophicNecrotrophic Isn't a communist. Joined: Posts: 5,945
    edited September 2016
    Doesn't every single character have throw loops in the corner?

    Depends what you mean by throw loop. Can cammy throw and then throw again? Yeah, but it's not a proper throw loop. A proper throw loop to me is a throw that allows for a meaty throw again. Ryu has a throw loop.

    Cammy can do a throw loop off her back throw as a side switch but that's one rep.

    Cammy's forward throw allows for a walk up throw/meaty mixup but delayed buttons will be solid against this. Or a jump fwd tech os. Nobody is punishing that at all really right now.

    It's better to say that cammy has throw pressure in the corner rather than a throw loop
    Northeast PA
    570 Necro
  • geadomgeadom Reversal Counter Hit Joined: Posts: 1,085
    Where's the most updated matchup chart?
    "He´s different, he´s special." Pick up your spear, the only thing you can do is your best
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 57,984 mod
    Never decided to do one since I didn't think there was a point with so little time left in the season and the game getting radical frame and hit box changes in Season 2017.

    What I'll most likely do is start this back up as the new season starts and just work on the matchups actively as time goes on.

    Ain't nothin, Capcom's ruthless still producin.  Cut em a check or find yoself toothless.  Keep it shill with no confusin.  Niggas say I'm shill...they ain't hard I can prove it YEEEAH


  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 10,292
    It will be fun to look at how some MUs change with the nerfs/buffs and see if Guile has at least a MU that is less than 7-3.
    [SFV] Laura (Sakura, Cody?) [3S] Alex, Ken
    [Xrd] Leo [BBCF] Bullet
    [UNIEL] Orie [T7] Claudio
    [MvCI] Thanos and something else
  • AlkipotAlkipot Mayoral Upper! Joined: Posts: 2,037
    Gotta get used to Guile's new cr hp, with its cc ability... man this is gonna be a fun normal now
    SFV CFN - EvilMuffinMan (Laura, Guile, ABIGAIL!)
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  • MessatsMessats Joined: Posts: 275
    It will be fun to look at how some MUs change with the nerfs/buffs and see if Guile has at least a MU that is less than 7-3.

    He probably has....






    Vs Urien.
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  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 57,984 mod
    edited February 15
    Alright FINALLY going to get the ball rolling with this matchup chart thing. Wanted to wait for the new character to be revealed and generally get a chance to really think about the matchups for myself so I can have a starting point to conjecture with everyone else.

    Gonna lay some ground rules here so it doesn't turn into the SFV Lounge 2 like the balance thread did. If you MUST talk about the things below, please TAKE IT TO THE LOUNGE. It will not be tolerated here.

    Please don't get into stupid ass SFIV vs SFV wars or whatever wars you wanna get into. 3rd Strike vs SFIV lasted long enough, SFIV vs SFV doesn't need to last anywhere near as long. Don't bring up other SF games unless you just need to make a pure observance of something between the games. We don't need pages of which SF game is great for you or which one is giving you growing pains and hurting your relationship with your friends and family.

    Please refrain from overly positive or negative talk about the game in general. If SFV has saved your life, that's great. Don't need to know that. SFV is killing what makes SF fundamental for you? Great, don't need to know that. This thread is for objectively talking about matchups and strategies for the game. It's not meant to be a diary for your SF shit. That's what the lounge is for.

    Please also keep large lists of your ideas for improvements for the balance to the improvements thread or the lounge. Theoretical added balance changes generally just derail discussion on what is actually going on with the game and generally get into unnecessary back and forth conversations that don't really explain the current meta. Bringing up a thing or two that needs to be touched up for a character is ok, but we don't need long ass lists and discussions about things that aren't within SFV's competitive reality.



    You have your warning.
    There will be a VERY LOW tolerance policy for the shit above. It derails threads like this way too easily so it's not going to be put up with. General requests to fix things if you are messing up will be forwarded. If not, mods will have to get involved.



    Other than that, hope to get some good discussion and hope we'll be able to keep up with everything since we'll be getting new characters pretty regularly throughout the life of the game.

    Ain't nothin, Capcom's ruthless still producin.  Cut em a check or find yoself toothless.  Keep it shill with no confusin.  Niggas say I'm shill...they ain't hard I can prove it YEEEAH


  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 57,984 mod
    edited February 15
    This is the mock up matchup chart I made for Season 2. Not really very organized or put in order. Just based on ideas I've had for the different matchups. I feel I have a good bit of info for the Ibuki, Chun, Juri and Cammy matchups since I do play all of them or at least am pretty familiar with Cammy as a character in general.


    Test Matchup List

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13j-lnEn2AaDvgHiZZ9J4vUZiBXsU7VbvEW2lAanqQiM/edit#gid=0



    Matchup Strength (just theoretical numbers from the list, not to take too seriously)

    Cammy 123.5
    Boxer 123
    Laura 120.5 Urien 120.5
    Rashid 116
    Guile 115.5
    Necalli 114.5
    Zangief 111.5 Juri 111.5
    Ibuki 111
    R.Mika 110.5
    Karin 110
    Ken 109
    Bison/Dic 107.5
    Nash 107
    Birdie 106.5
    Alex 105.5 Akuma 105.5
    Chun Li 103
    Dhalsim 102.5 Vega 102.5
    F.A.N.G 93.5
    Ryu 92.5


    If this were theoretically to be a real list, Cammy and Boxer would be the 2 best characters in the game. Which I think some people would already feel is common knowledge since they are just absolute powerhouses in neutral and also in invading neutral while having very few to no real bad matchups. Rog struggles a bit vs a few grapple characters and Cammy probably only really struggles with Gief while being slightly less good at winning a few matches than Rog.

    Got people in the middle of course that are generally close enough to be considered pretty viable and honestly not as bad IMO as people make them out to be. Then you would have Fang and Ryu at the bottom with a big disparity in matchup strength compared to the others. Those two would say are getting close to useless for tourneys until a patch, but still generally competitive.


    Again this is just matchups coming off my head from my knowledge and watching some videos and such. I'd like for @LordWilliam1234 @AceKombat and anyone else to come help in making a more official (visually) matchup chart and put some more concrete numbers together for the characters I only know in some off theory.

    Ain't nothin, Capcom's ruthless still producin.  Cut em a check or find yoself toothless.  Keep it shill with no confusin.  Niggas say I'm shill...they ain't hard I can prove it YEEEAH


  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 10,292
    edited February 16
    Laura's MU chart is terribly off. This is how it should be:
    Akuma 5.5
    Alex 5.5
    Birdie 5.5 -> 5
    Boxer 5.5
    Cammy 5 -> 4.5 (or even 4)
    Chun 4
    Dhalsim 6 -> 5.5 (not sure but I don't think it's so bad either)
    FANG 6
    Guile 5.5 -> 4/3.5 (LMAO were you drunk??)
    Ibuki 5.5 -> 5
    Juri 4 -> 5
    Karin 5.5 -> 5
    Ken 5 -> 4.5
    M. Bison 6
    Nash 6
    Necalli 5
    R. Mika 5.5
    Rashid 5.5 -> 5 (I never played many Rashids but I can't see what she has more than him)
    Ryu 6
    Urien 5.5 -> 4 (again, LOL)
    Vega 6.5 -> 6
    Zangief 6 -> 4 (Jin pls)
    Post edited by OceanMachine on
    [SFV] Laura (Sakura, Cody?) [3S] Alex, Ken
    [Xrd] Leo [BBCF] Bullet
    [UNIEL] Orie [T7] Claudio
    [MvCI] Thanos and something else
  • CipherCipher Catchphraser Joined: Posts: 1,904
    I speculate that the same 2 clows as always will now come in to talk Cammy bad.

    Befor this happens, I want to say that this seems pretty accurate
    There can never be enough Waifus and I can never have enough of them!!!
    SteamId, leave a comment before adding!
    Street Fighter: Cammy, Rose
    Guilty Gear: Elphe, Jack-O

    My SFV Cammyguide!
  • p1nkt1t5p1nkt1t5 Joined: Posts: 658
    In S2, I feel Cammy does not lose to any one character, matches feel like they are the Cammy players to lose. I cannot think of a match where she is wanting for options. From my perspective, the other characters have to take more risks vs her, if that makes sense.
    SFV: Cammy, Yun
    SF4: Yun

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  • SmokeMaxXSmokeMaxX T.O. of A.R.K. Joined: Posts: 7,974
    edited February 15
    Laura's MU chart is terribly off. This is how it should be:
    Akuma 5.5
    Alex 5.5
    Boxer 5.5
    Cammy 5 -> 4.5 (or even 4)
    Chun 4
    Dhalsim 6 -> 5.5 (not sure but I don't think it's so bad either)
    FANG 6
    Guile 5.5 -> 4/3.5 (LMAO were you drunk??)
    Ibuki 5.5 -> 5
    Juri 4 -> 5
    Karin 5.5 -> 5
    Ken 5 -> 4.5
    M. Bison 6
    Nash 6
    Necalli 5
    R. Mika 5.5
    Rashid 5.5 -> 5 (I never played many Rashids but I can't see what she has more than him)
    Ryu 6
    Urien 5.5 -> 4 (again, LOL)
    Vega 6.5 -> 6
    Zangief 6 -> 4 (Jin pls)

    Birdie matchup so bad he doesn't even show up!
    No but seriously, it's probably pretty even now. Maybe slight advantage laura. Some birdies think slight advantage birdie though. St mp and st mk hard to deal with for birdie
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 57,984 mod
    edited February 15
    Laura's MU chart is terribly off. This is how it should be:
    Akuma 5.5
    Alex 5.5
    Boxer 5.5
    Cammy 5 -> 4.5 (or even 4)
    Chun 4
    Dhalsim 6 -> 5.5 (not sure but I don't think it's so bad either)
    FANG 6
    Guile 5.5 -> 4/3.5 (LMAO were you drunk??)
    Ibuki 5.5 -> 5
    Juri 4 -> 5
    Karin 5.5 -> 5
    Ken 5 -> 4.5
    M. Bison 6
    Nash 6
    Necalli 5
    R. Mika 5.5
    Rashid 5.5 -> 5 (I never played many Rashids but I can't see what she has more than him)
    Ryu 6
    Urien 5.5 -> 4 (again, LOL)
    Vega 6.5 -> 6
    Zangief 6 -> 4 (Jin pls)

    I guess you don't understand the words mock up, test or theoretical lol. I even said the only characters that any real legitimate numbers were from the characters I play. Don't be bad readers already

    The Zangief 4 6 thing was a typo btw


    You forgot Birdie btw




    In any event I'd like to get @itzpookiie @melflomil and anyone else who mains or plays Laura well to conjecture with you and check your numbers

    Ain't nothin, Capcom's ruthless still producin.  Cut em a check or find yoself toothless.  Keep it shill with no confusin.  Niggas say I'm shill...they ain't hard I can prove it YEEEAH


  • AceKombatAceKombat (́◕◞౪◟◕‵) ”WINNERS DON’T USE ALMIGHTY.” Joined: Posts: 2,113
    edited September 10
    Can't format well on phoneFixed up on PC... changes (marked in bold and on the right side) from what's on the sheet for Ken imo:

    Ken VS:
    Akuma = 5.5 - 4.5
    Alex = 5 -5
    Balrog (Boxer) = 4.5 - 5.5 → 4 - 6
    Birdie = 5 - 5
    Cammy = 4.5 - 5.5
    Chun Li = 5 - 5
    Dhalsim = 5.5 - 4.5
    F.A.N.G = 5.5 - 4.5
    Guile = 4.5 - 5.5 → 5 - 5
    Ibuki = 5 - 5
    Juri = 5 - 5
    Karin = 5 - 5 → 4.5 - 5.5
    Laura = 5 - 5
    M.Bison (Dictator) = 5 - 5
    Nash = 5 - 5 → 5.5 - 4.5
    Necalli = 5 - 5
    R. Mika = 5 - 5
    Rashid = 5 - 5 → 4 - 6
    Ryu = 5.5 - 5 → 5 - 5
    Urien = 4.5 - 5.5 → 5 - 5
    Vega (Claw) = 4.5 - 5.5
    Zangief = 4.5 - 5.5 → 5 - 5

    I'd debate a bit Akuma (change for 5-5) and maybe Cammy (change for 5-5), but I can understand it from its current placement, so I'm okay with the decision.

    EDIT: Edited Balrog (Boxer) for 4-6 and Guile for 5-5.
    EDIT2: Edited Nash for 5.5.
    Long irrelevant bump EDIT3: Rashid and Karin edited. Feels relatively the same in S2.1

    I don't see how Laura has a slight struggle against Ken @OceanMachine . I feel that it's 5-5 , no more or less. Sure in S1 it felt terrible for Laura imo, but this time around she gained some consistency changes in strings that now feel decent to follow along... and back then in S1, doing meaty stuff as Laura against Ken was risky because meterless DP people could scout her setups and make her approach too tame... now, universally, they can't do it unless meter is involved (and Kens usually save some for his scary V-Trigger potential).
    Post edited by AceKombat on
    With all the hope combined... there can be a chance in SFV that Ken can, one day, walk again. #TeamWheelchair
    If interested in SFEX2+ matchmaking: http://steamcommunity.com/groups/SFEX2P
    CFN: AceKombat Steam: xAceKombatx
  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 10,292
    AceKombat wrote: »
    I don't see how Laura has a slight struggle against Ken @OceanMachine . I feel that it's 5-5 , no more or less. Sure in S1 it felt terrible for Laura imo, but this time around she gained some consistency changes in strings that now feel decent to follow along... and back then in S1, doing meaty stuff as Laura against Ken was risky because meterless DP people could scout her setups and make her approach too tame... now, universally, they can't do it unless meter is involved (and Kens usually save some for his scary V-Trigger potential).

    I feel Ken still has great advantage in neutral and can still send her with ease in the corner where the match just becomes one sided. Her strings didn't really change either, she only gained more mix-ups up close, but Ken imho can play very easily outside her mix-up range due to his movement.
    [SFV] Laura (Sakura, Cody?) [3S] Alex, Ken
    [Xrd] Leo [BBCF] Bullet
    [UNIEL] Orie [T7] Claudio
    [MvCI] Thanos and something else
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