SFV Matchup Chart. S2 Boxer vs Guile; Urien vs Gief; Ibuki vs Sim; Ryu vs Vega; Juri vs FANG

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  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Ibuki and Juri BUFFZ Joined: Posts: 53,410 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    edited September 2016
    Quark wrote: »
    I still need to learn her. Shes got a lot of good tools.

    Mind elaborating on this a little bit? I'm thinking of picking her up for shits and giggles but I haven't played/watched any good Juris yet so I'm not sure what her gameplan is or what she excels at.

    For a DLC character she has a lot of the basics you need. Meterless invincible anti air, EX reversal, 3 frame buttons (including the only other 3 frame low in the game), generally buttons that are better than most give credit for, good forward walk and other things that make her a lot better than Bison or Gief.

    She's good at controlling the mid range while also being very good at dealing with projectiles. She has a low profiling projectile that can sail under other projectiles while she can absorb the one flying at her. She doesn't get looping throw pressure due to the space that's created after her throw, but her throw has decent range and gives her opportunity to set up another store or offense. Her b+HK is really underrated and underused since it's essentially what would happen if Ryu's b+HK was cancelable on both hits.

    She also is the only character that can whiff cancel a special and then VTC (LK fuharenkyaku fireball) which allows her to very safely start up offense with her V Trigger.

    Kunoichi is always in V Trigger

    BUFF CITY.  Population IBUKI


    SFV: Ibuki (Main Bae), Juri (Buffed Bae), Chun Li (Needs Buffs Bae)

    KOF XIV: Nakoruru/Iori/KDash

    SFIV: Nobody hate that shit (PROTIP: Everyone on SRK hates SFIV)

    3S: Ibuki (main), Alex

    If I ever pick up Xrd: Johnny

    PSN: PervyJin01

    CFN: PervyJin01 (PS4) Twitch: c88deviljin01

  • NecrotrophicNecrotrophic Isn't a communist. Joined: Posts: 5,594
    edited September 2016
    SmokeMaxX wrote: »
    SmokeMaxX wrote: »
    A few things to keep in mind with Cammy vs. Birdie:

    1) It's extremely common for him to block her DP and not be able to reach her with st. RH crush counter.
    2) Birdie beating her in footsies is arguable at best and IMO just wrong. While you can compare hitboxes and possibly find Birdie's being longer than hers, you have to remember that if she touches him once, she screen (and possibly corner) carries and plus her buttons are significantly faster than his. Example: Cammy's st. hp is 6 frames. Cr. mp is 5 frames. Cr. mk is 7 frames. Cr. lp is 3 frames. Birdie's fastest normal is 4 frames (super short range), st. mp is 7 frames, st. mk is 8 frames, and st. hk is 12 frames. I mean yeah, he does have a 10 frame heavy normal, but it's -9 on block so congrats? When it comes to footsies, I think Birdie is the number 1 crush countered character because he either has shitty hitboxes, slow ass normals (and/or lower priority than heavies) or a combination of all of the above.
    3) So anyway, I keep hearing take the throw, take the throw. But yeah, remember how I just said she carries you across the screen every hit? You can't just "take the throw" in the corner because all that shit loops there. Also, if you're content with just taking the throw, then you're probably not pushing buttons to her her out of her vskill that is + on block.
    4) Birdie's best footsies normals are also the ones where you can jump in on him for free if he sticks them out. They do not recover in time for him to anti-air you in that situation. He can block, but you get a free in so it doesn't matter.

    There's no range where cammy can safely play looking for a whiff punish that's good for her.

    Cammy does not have a throw loop. She has one off of back throw but you only get one rep. She has to walk forward to get another throw.

    He was talking about the corner. Everyone can throw loop once you touch the corner.



    Ibuki has a 3 frame jab, 3 frame special, ex dp and v reversal with decent invincibility. She can keep from getting mauled.

    So was I. Cammy doesn't have a corner throw loop. She has to walk forward a good bit
    Guess the Japanese notes are wrong because I can't seem to recreate the throw loop they listed. Either way, if Birdie gets in the corner against Cammy, he basically loses.

    She has an advantage there but it's not auto loss by any means. If she does a walk forward throw after a throw not only does she lose positioning, she's gonna get hurt bad.

    Cammy can meaty after a fthrow but it just takes one guess to screw all that up. Walking toward can actually be scary against a really good birdie, which I'm fortunate enough to have on my friends list

    Cammy straight up does not have a fthrow loop. She has a walk forward throw walk forward throw kinda thing. It's fast enough thst people get caught by it but it's slow enough that you can react when you're ready for it
    Northeast PA
    570 Necro
  • CipherCipher Catchphraser Joined: Posts: 1,617
    Cipher wrote: »
    We allready know how this ends, we went trough this in the MU thread like 3 times.

    As I said before, the same thing happend again like the last few times. I'm getting tired of it.

    Anyways.
    Cipher could you expound on why you don't think the birdie matchup is slightly in his favor. Most cammy's in the forum do agree that while she does really well against the top half of the cast she struggles in a few matchups with characters in the tier below her. Necro does raise some valid points...Birdie does out neutral cammy perhaps until she has v-trigger. Sure cammy does have the tools to get around it but because of her low health/high stun and his high health/high damage you tend to have to play more perfectly than you would against some of the other cast. That's why i think defensive ryu's (like daigo style, I actually think she does well if the ryu plays more like tokido), birdie, and Geif are her worst matchups. While I do think they aren't so bad that she can't win them I just feel as though she has to do a bit more work than she normally would. For instance consider your own experience..have you never played against geif and gotten significantly more hits only to guess wrong once or twice and lose. That's cammy's weakness and most cammy players feel that those three chars are in a very good position to exploit it. Or do you feel as though cammy only has 5-5's or better across the board? I don't think she has a 3 - 7 against any character (as I don't feel there are many of those in this game) and if she does its only geif, but i do think she is in a less than desirable position in those matchups.

    Necro said there is no range Cammy can safe whiffpunish Birdie.This is straight a lie.
    The minority of Birdies use st.hk in the neutral,most focus on cr.lp,st.mp and st.mk. If you stay at this range and you can whiffpunish him pretty easaly.
    Birdie might have a range advantage with some normals,but he lacks the movespeed to make use of it against a char with TopTier Walkspeed and range.
    Cammy also got st.hp, this move has not only the advantage because it's a heavy, it also has a disjoined hitbox,what makes it easier to "eat" a move with it.
    There is a range Cammy can play against Birdie,the other thing is, is the Birdie willing to use buttons or does he know that she can do this?
    I checked some of the Diamond Cammys (Valhalla,Osayu) and looked for Birdie and Zangief Matches.
    What I saw with Birdie was mainly a rushdown festival from both sides,Cammy basicly forces Birdie to play a different game,than he would play against other chars. His V-Skill is kinda pointless in this MU, EX Divekick is a huge treat for his midrange game and he can't use his hanging chain at all,since Cammy can punish it even from fullscreen. He has also absolutly no answer to her frametraps,unless he's in V-Trigger or wants to use his V-Meter, do I have to tell you that she can punish basicly everything she blocks? Even V-Trigger bullheads with their huge pushback can be punished with reversal arrows and H DP.
    If we look at Birdies normal damage he does with his mainwhiffpunish st.mp xx L/M bullhorn 200 damage. It's kinda pointless how much life you have against Birdie after 5-6 of these things every char will be dead.

    Comming to Zangief. What I saw was mainly, lets say interesting. I found a bunch of matches Osayu had against Itazan and it was interesting.
    Osayu lost the first match pretty badly, like real bad. But then he played completly different. The second match had only 2 jumps in total and both were perfect reads. Osayu just used the ground and outfootsied Gief so hard,that Itazan had no spot to attack. cr.lp was effective shut down by st.mp and he had no way to jump in, Osayu beat every dash perfect with st.lk. The entire match looked like Giefs worst nightmare.
    Of course Zangief only needs 3 good reads to kill Cammy,then again he only needs 3 good reads to kill every char.

    Cammys life doesn't matter shit in Birdie and especialy Zangiefs MU,because they will both kill every char in 2-3 errors regardless of how much health they have.

    You see, I don't belive simple bitching about MU's just because people lose it.
    It was the same in SFIV, at the beginning was everyone bitching how bad Poison was for Cammy,after a while they figured Poison out,learned how to deal with her.Out of all sudden the Mu was even, that was like the moment I scratched my head,because that was what I said since the launch of Ultra.

    I don't base this on my own experience,since I barely to never play these chars offline, but I do a lot of research and test situations and the options you can deal with them.
    It turns out that Cammys only flaw is her health/stun in the end. And health/stun are like 5% of a MU,while tools are 95%.

    Cammy does not have a throw loop. She has one off of back throw but you only get one rep. She has to walk forward to get another throw.

    For someone who tries to tell me he's better,you don't know how her throw works in the corner right?

    Cammy has a corner frametrap after every throw,it leaves her at the perfect space for a bunch of different options.
    You can either, walk up and throw again.
    walk up and press a button
    stand there and do st.hk
    f+hk
    taunt

    I prefere the taunt,since I love it to taunt.
    So she has all these wonderfull options and Birdies fastes button,is a 4f cr.lk.
    This is a situation were Birdie is absolutly fucked, his buttons are worthless at this range,his defence is non-existing(not that he ever had defence).
    You want to tell me you can't take advantage of one of Cammys best strenghs against a char who has abolutly no defence close up?
    Sure it's not a throwloop perse, but it's a 50/50 situation anyways,she can either walk forward and throw or walk forward and press a button or just press a button, her Fthrow leaves her at the perfect range for all of this.
    d3v wrote: »
    Speaking of Cammy, apparently Xian considers her F.A.N.G.'s worse match up.

    It's funny right?
    The prima Guide says Cammy has problems against Chars like Dhalsim and FANG,yet Cammy is the worst MU for these two.
    SteamId, leave a comment before adding!
    Street Fighter: Cammy
    Tekken: When's Jun? , Lili, Eliza
    Guilty Gear: Ramlethal

    My SFV Cammyguide!
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Ibuki and Juri BUFFZ Joined: Posts: 53,410 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Xian has been saying that about Fang for a while. Plus it's just generally objective that that matchup would be shit.

    Kunoichi is always in V Trigger

    BUFF CITY.  Population IBUKI


    SFV: Ibuki (Main Bae), Juri (Buffed Bae), Chun Li (Needs Buffs Bae)

    KOF XIV: Nakoruru/Iori/KDash

    SFIV: Nobody hate that shit (PROTIP: Everyone on SRK hates SFIV)

    3S: Ibuki (main), Alex

    If I ever pick up Xrd: Johnny

    PSN: PervyJin01

    CFN: PervyJin01 (PS4) Twitch: c88deviljin01

  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 8,385
    Doesn't every single character have throw loops in the corner?
    [SFV] Laura, Vega [3S] Alex, Ken
    [UNIEL] Orie [Xrd] Leo
    [BBCF] Bullet [T7] Claudio
  • NecrotrophicNecrotrophic Isn't a communist. Joined: Posts: 5,594
    edited September 2016
    Doesn't every single character have throw loops in the corner?

    Depends what you mean by throw loop. Can cammy throw and then throw again? Yeah, but it's not a proper throw loop. A proper throw loop to me is a throw that allows for a meaty throw again. Ryu has a throw loop.

    Cammy can do a throw loop off her back throw as a side switch but that's one rep.

    Cammy's forward throw allows for a walk up throw/meaty mixup but delayed buttons will be solid against this. Or a jump fwd tech os. Nobody is punishing that at all really right now.

    It's better to say that cammy has throw pressure in the corner rather than a throw loop
    Northeast PA
    570 Necro
  • geadomgeadom Reversal Counter Hit Joined: Posts: 1,084
    Where's the most updated matchup chart?
    "He´s different, he´s special." Pick up your spear, the only thing you can do is your best
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Ibuki and Juri BUFFZ Joined: Posts: 53,410 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Never decided to do one since I didn't think there was a point with so little time left in the season and the game getting radical frame and hit box changes in Season 2017.

    What I'll most likely do is start this back up as the new season starts and just work on the matchups actively as time goes on.

    Kunoichi is always in V Trigger

    BUFF CITY.  Population IBUKI


    SFV: Ibuki (Main Bae), Juri (Buffed Bae), Chun Li (Needs Buffs Bae)

    KOF XIV: Nakoruru/Iori/KDash

    SFIV: Nobody hate that shit (PROTIP: Everyone on SRK hates SFIV)

    3S: Ibuki (main), Alex

    If I ever pick up Xrd: Johnny

    PSN: PervyJin01

    CFN: PervyJin01 (PS4) Twitch: c88deviljin01

  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 8,385
    It will be fun to look at how some MUs change with the nerfs/buffs and see if Guile has at least a MU that is less than 7-3.
    [SFV] Laura, Vega [3S] Alex, Ken
    [UNIEL] Orie [Xrd] Leo
    [BBCF] Bullet [T7] Claudio
  • AlkipotAlkipot Purse first, ass last Joined: Posts: 1,758
    Gotta get used to Guile's new cr hp, with its cc ability... man this is gonna be a fun normal now
    SFV CFN - EvilMuffinMan (Laura, Guile, Birdie)
    Watch my terrible SFV/For Honor/UFC2 play here!
    http://www.youtube.com/user/Alkipot
  • MessatsMessats Joined: Posts: 242
    It will be fun to look at how some MUs change with the nerfs/buffs and see if Guile has at least a MU that is less than 7-3.

    He probably has....






    Vs Urien.
    SFV: Vega
    GG Xrd: Venom
    Tekken 7: Kazuya
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Ibuki and Juri BUFFZ Joined: Posts: 53,410 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    edited February 15
    Alright FINALLY going to get the ball rolling with this matchup chart thing. Wanted to wait for the new character to be revealed and generally get a chance to really think about the matchups for myself so I can have a starting point to conjecture with everyone else.

    Gonna lay some ground rules here so it doesn't turn into the SFV Lounge 2 like the balance thread did. If you MUST talk about the things below, please TAKE IT TO THE LOUNGE. It will not be tolerated here.

    Please don't get into stupid ass SFIV vs SFV wars or whatever wars you wanna get into. 3rd Strike vs SFIV lasted long enough, SFIV vs SFV doesn't need to last anywhere near as long. Don't bring up other SF games unless you just need to make a pure observance of something between the games. We don't need pages of which SF game is great for you or which one is giving you growing pains and hurting your relationship with your friends and family.

    Please refrain from overly positive or negative talk about the game in general. If SFV has saved your life, that's great. Don't need to know that. SFV is killing what makes SF fundamental for you? Great, don't need to know that. This thread is for objectively talking about matchups and strategies for the game. It's not meant to be a diary for your SF shit. That's what the lounge is for.

    Please also keep large lists of your ideas for improvements for the balance to the improvements thread or the lounge. Theoretical added balance changes generally just derail discussion on what is actually going on with the game and generally get into unnecessary back and forth conversations that don't really explain the current meta. Bringing up a thing or two that needs to be touched up for a character is ok, but we don't need long ass lists and discussions about things that aren't within SFV's competitive reality.



    You have your warning.
    There will be a VERY LOW tolerance policy for the shit above. It derails threads like this way too easily so it's not going to be put up with. General requests to fix things if you are messing up will be forwarded. If not, mods will have to get involved.



    Other than that, hope to get some good discussion and hope we'll be able to keep up with everything since we'll be getting new characters pretty regularly throughout the life of the game.

    Kunoichi is always in V Trigger

    BUFF CITY.  Population IBUKI


    SFV: Ibuki (Main Bae), Juri (Buffed Bae), Chun Li (Needs Buffs Bae)

    KOF XIV: Nakoruru/Iori/KDash

    SFIV: Nobody hate that shit (PROTIP: Everyone on SRK hates SFIV)

    3S: Ibuki (main), Alex

    If I ever pick up Xrd: Johnny

    PSN: PervyJin01

    CFN: PervyJin01 (PS4) Twitch: c88deviljin01

  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Ibuki and Juri BUFFZ Joined: Posts: 53,410 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    edited February 15
    This is the mock up matchup chart I made for Season 2. Not really very organized or put in order. Just based on ideas I've had for the different matchups. I feel I have a good bit of info for the Ibuki, Chun, Juri and Cammy matchups since I do play all of them or at least am pretty familiar with Cammy as a character in general.


    Test Matchup List

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/13j-lnEn2AaDvgHiZZ9J4vUZiBXsU7VbvEW2lAanqQiM/edit#gid=0



    Matchup Strength (just theoretical numbers from the list, not to take too seriously)

    Cammy 123.5
    Boxer 123
    Laura 120.5 Urien 120.5
    Rashid 116
    Guile 115.5
    Necalli 114.5
    Zangief 111.5 Juri 111.5
    Ibuki 111
    R.Mika 110.5
    Karin 110
    Ken 109
    Bison/Dic 107.5
    Nash 107
    Birdie 106.5
    Alex 105.5 Akuma 105.5
    Chun Li 103
    Dhalsim 102.5 Vega 102.5
    F.A.N.G 93.5
    Ryu 92.5


    If this were theoretically to be a real list, Cammy and Boxer would be the 2 best characters in the game. Which I think some people would already feel is common knowledge since they are just absolute powerhouses in neutral and also in invading neutral while having very few to no real bad matchups. Rog struggles a bit vs a few grapple characters and Cammy probably only really struggles with Gief while being slightly less good at winning a few matches than Rog.

    Got people in the middle of course that are generally close enough to be considered pretty viable and honestly not as bad IMO as people make them out to be. Then you would have Fang and Ryu at the bottom with a big disparity in matchup strength compared to the others. Those two would say are getting close to useless for tourneys until a patch, but still generally competitive.


    Again this is just matchups coming off my head from my knowledge and watching some videos and such. I'd like for @LordWilliam1234 @AceKombat and anyone else to come help in making a more official (visually) matchup chart and put some more concrete numbers together for the characters I only know in some off theory.

    Kunoichi is always in V Trigger

    BUFF CITY.  Population IBUKI


    SFV: Ibuki (Main Bae), Juri (Buffed Bae), Chun Li (Needs Buffs Bae)

    KOF XIV: Nakoruru/Iori/KDash

    SFIV: Nobody hate that shit (PROTIP: Everyone on SRK hates SFIV)

    3S: Ibuki (main), Alex

    If I ever pick up Xrd: Johnny

    PSN: PervyJin01

    CFN: PervyJin01 (PS4) Twitch: c88deviljin01

  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 8,385
    edited February 16
    Laura's MU chart is terribly off. This is how it should be:
    Akuma 5.5
    Alex 5.5
    Birdie 5.5 -> 5
    Boxer 5.5
    Cammy 5 -> 4.5 (or even 4)
    Chun 4
    Dhalsim 6 -> 5.5 (not sure but I don't think it's so bad either)
    FANG 6
    Guile 5.5 -> 4/3.5 (LMAO were you drunk??)
    Ibuki 5.5 -> 5
    Juri 4 -> 5
    Karin 5.5 -> 5
    Ken 5 -> 4.5
    M. Bison 6
    Nash 6
    Necalli 5
    R. Mika 5.5
    Rashid 5.5 -> 5 (I never played many Rashids but I can't see what she has more than him)
    Ryu 6
    Urien 5.5 -> 4 (again, LOL)
    Vega 6.5 -> 6
    Zangief 6 -> 4 (Jin pls)
    Post edited by OceanMachine on
    [SFV] Laura, Vega [3S] Alex, Ken
    [UNIEL] Orie [Xrd] Leo
    [BBCF] Bullet [T7] Claudio
  • CipherCipher Catchphraser Joined: Posts: 1,617
    I speculate that the same 2 clows as always will now come in to talk Cammy bad.

    Befor this happens, I want to say that this seems pretty accurate
    SteamId, leave a comment before adding!
    Street Fighter: Cammy
    Tekken: When's Jun? , Lili, Eliza
    Guilty Gear: Ramlethal

    My SFV Cammyguide!
  • p1nkt1t5p1nkt1t5 Joined: Posts: 615
    In S2, I feel Cammy does not lose to any one character, matches feel like they are the Cammy players to lose. I cannot think of a match where she is wanting for options. From my perspective, the other characters have to take more risks vs her, if that makes sense.
    SFV: Cammy, Yun
    SF4: Yun

    1HC to Super Makes SFV Satisfactory

    http://makeagif.com/gif/1hc-to-super-TOpukQ

    When I Miss, Salt >:(

    http://makeagif.com/gif/1hc-to-super-miss-Y4J9bL
  • SmokeMaxXSmokeMaxX T.O. of A.R.K. Joined: Posts: 7,974
    edited February 15
    Laura's MU chart is terribly off. This is how it should be:
    Akuma 5.5
    Alex 5.5
    Boxer 5.5
    Cammy 5 -> 4.5 (or even 4)
    Chun 4
    Dhalsim 6 -> 5.5 (not sure but I don't think it's so bad either)
    FANG 6
    Guile 5.5 -> 4/3.5 (LMAO were you drunk??)
    Ibuki 5.5 -> 5
    Juri 4 -> 5
    Karin 5.5 -> 5
    Ken 5 -> 4.5
    M. Bison 6
    Nash 6
    Necalli 5
    R. Mika 5.5
    Rashid 5.5 -> 5 (I never played many Rashids but I can't see what she has more than him)
    Ryu 6
    Urien 5.5 -> 4 (again, LOL)
    Vega 6.5 -> 6
    Zangief 6 -> 4 (Jin pls)

    Birdie matchup so bad he doesn't even show up!
    No but seriously, it's probably pretty even now. Maybe slight advantage laura. Some birdies think slight advantage birdie though. St mp and st mk hard to deal with for birdie
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Ibuki and Juri BUFFZ Joined: Posts: 53,410 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    edited February 15
    Laura's MU chart is terribly off. This is how it should be:
    Akuma 5.5
    Alex 5.5
    Boxer 5.5
    Cammy 5 -> 4.5 (or even 4)
    Chun 4
    Dhalsim 6 -> 5.5 (not sure but I don't think it's so bad either)
    FANG 6
    Guile 5.5 -> 4/3.5 (LMAO were you drunk??)
    Ibuki 5.5 -> 5
    Juri 4 -> 5
    Karin 5.5 -> 5
    Ken 5 -> 4.5
    M. Bison 6
    Nash 6
    Necalli 5
    R. Mika 5.5
    Rashid 5.5 -> 5 (I never played many Rashids but I can't see what she has more than him)
    Ryu 6
    Urien 5.5 -> 4 (again, LOL)
    Vega 6.5 -> 6
    Zangief 6 -> 4 (Jin pls)

    I guess you don't understand the words mock up, test or theoretical lol. I even said the only characters that any real legitimate numbers were from the characters I play. Don't be bad readers already

    The Zangief 4 6 thing was a typo btw


    You forgot Birdie btw




    In any event I'd like to get @itzpookiie @melflomil and anyone else who mains or plays Laura well to conjecture with you and check your numbers

    Kunoichi is always in V Trigger

    BUFF CITY.  Population IBUKI


    SFV: Ibuki (Main Bae), Juri (Buffed Bae), Chun Li (Needs Buffs Bae)

    KOF XIV: Nakoruru/Iori/KDash

    SFIV: Nobody hate that shit (PROTIP: Everyone on SRK hates SFIV)

    3S: Ibuki (main), Alex

    If I ever pick up Xrd: Johnny

    PSN: PervyJin01

    CFN: PervyJin01 (PS4) Twitch: c88deviljin01

  • AceKombatAceKombat (́◕◞౪◟◕‵) ”WINNERS DON’T USE ALMIGHTY.” Joined: Posts: 2,004
    edited February 18
    Can't format well on phoneFixed up on PC... changes (marked in bold and on the right side) from what's on the sheet for Ken imo:

    Ken VS:
    Akuma = 5.5 - 4.5
    Alex = 5 -5
    Balrog (Boxer) = 4.5 - 5.5 → 4 - 6
    Birdie = 5 - 5
    Cammy = 4.5 - 5.5
    Chun Li = 5 - 5
    Dhalsim = 5.5 - 4.5
    F.A.N.G = 5.5 - 4.5
    Guile = 4.5 - 5.5 → 5 - 5
    Ibuki = 5 - 5
    Juri = 5 - 5
    Karin = 5 - 5
    Laura = 5 - 5
    M.Bison (Dictator) = 5 - 5
    Nash = 5 - 5 → 5.5 - 4.5
    Necalli = 5 - 5
    R. Mika = 5 - 5
    Rashid = 5 - 5
    Ryu = 5.5 - 5 → 5 - 5
    Urien = 4.5 - 5.5 → 5 - 5
    Vega (Claw) = 4.5 - 5.5
    Zangief = 4.5 - 5.5 → 5 - 5

    I'd debate a bit Akuma (change for 5-5) and maybe Cammy (change for 5-5), but I can understand it from its current placement, so I'm okay with the decision.

    EDIT: Edited Balrog (Boxer) for 4-6 and Guile for 5-5.
    EDIT2: Edited Nash for 5.5.

    I don't see how Laura has a slight struggle against Ken @OceanMachine . I feel that it's 5-5 , no more or less. Sure in S1 it felt terrible for Laura imo, but this time around she gained some consistency changes in strings that now feel decent to follow along... and back then in S1, doing meaty stuff as Laura against Ken was risky because meterless DP people could scout her setups and make her approach too tame... now, universally, they can't do it unless meter is involved (and Kens usually save some for his scary V-Trigger potential).
    Post edited by AceKombat on
    With all the hope combined... there can be a chance in SFV that Ken can, one day, walk again. #TeamWheelchair
    If interested in SFEX2+ matchmaking: http://steamcommunity.com/groups/SFEX2P
    CFN: AceKombat Steam: xAceKombatx
  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 8,385
    AceKombat wrote: »
    I don't see how Laura has a slight struggle against Ken @OceanMachine . I feel that it's 5-5 , no more or less. Sure in S1 it felt terrible for Laura imo, but this time around she gained some consistency changes in strings that now feel decent to follow along... and back then in S1, doing meaty stuff as Laura against Ken was risky because meterless DP people could scout her setups and make her approach too tame... now, universally, they can't do it unless meter is involved (and Kens usually save some for his scary V-Trigger potential).

    I feel Ken still has great advantage in neutral and can still send her with ease in the corner where the match just becomes one sided. Her strings didn't really change either, she only gained more mix-ups up close, but Ken imho can play very easily outside her mix-up range due to his movement.
    [SFV] Laura, Vega [3S] Alex, Ken
    [UNIEL] Orie [Xrd] Leo
    [BBCF] Bullet [T7] Claudio
  • AceKombatAceKombat (́◕◞౪◟◕‵) ”WINNERS DON’T USE ALMIGHTY.” Joined: Posts: 2,004
    edited February 16
    The whole one-sided situation of being cornered could be said with almost everyone, although this is where Ken becomes most scary. Most people, even Laura, can find a sweet spot range to get out, and regardless of taking damage, it is going to be worth it.

    Could bring up that, unlike Ken, some of Laura's enders give a proper meaty setup anywhere on specials alone without needing the corner. Ken's oki factor mainly plays a strong role when cornerering the opponent (primarily most consistent after a throw... or after certain attack enders against 4-frame minimum options, which Laura isn't categorized in). In season 1 she had to deal with a lot worse, but most of what made it inconsistent is that the DP was there to throw out any loose followups or oki. She technically can now play around as she is intended to now unless Ken has meter.

    Hope you don't mind me using the Ryu MU reference, but I would say the same applies with Ryu but in a bad way since corner oki isn't consistent and his pokes are lacking, but has a 3f normal and somewhat workable strings... seeing that as 4-6 is feasible against Laura... but seeing a huge jump when it comes to Ken at a +1.5 difference because of those changes is odd to me. I can see +1.0 change at best because Ken's traits are more scary in SFV. The gameplan at neutral is relatively similar imo (Mediums against Laura are generally really strong), there are just a few differences from both that just overall puts Ken ahead because the meta of offense is preferred. From playing with Ryu against a Laura trainer in the past, I would say it's somewhat noticeable to see the match-up lean towards Ryu than Laura. For Season 2 Ryu VS Laura I would think that MU changed, but not too much (might be 5.5 in Laura's favor against Ryu).
    Post edited by AceKombat on
    With all the hope combined... there can be a chance in SFV that Ken can, one day, walk again. #TeamWheelchair
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  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 8,385
    I'm not sure about the 6-4 against Ryu either, and the fact that most people just dropped Ryu means we probably won't get to know how good he really is in some MUs. The most reasonable statement imho would be 5.5 for Laura against Ryu and 5.5 for Ken against Laura.
    [SFV] Laura, Vega [3S] Alex, Ken
    [UNIEL] Orie [Xrd] Leo
    [BBCF] Bullet [T7] Claudio
  • riburibu EX Swirl Tackle Joined: Posts: 2,142
    This is how I view FANG's MUs:
    Akuma:5.5
    Alex: 6
    Balrog 4
    Birdie 6 Birdie in VT 5
    Cammy 3
    Chun Li 4
    Dhalsim 5.5
    F.A.N.G 5
    Guile 5
    Ibuki 4
    Juri 4.5
    Karin 4.5
    Ken 3.5
    Laura 3.5
    M. Bison 5
    Nash 5
    Necalli 4
    R. Mika 4
    Rashid 4
    Ryu 5
    Urien 3.5
    Vega 5
    Zangief 5.5

    I think S1 his worst MUs were Cammy, Ken, and Chun. Going in to S2 I don't think they really fixed the issues he had in those MUs, but Ken and Chun did get weaker overall. I think going forward his MUs are based around:
    How Long can he keep pressure going safely?
    What are the opponent's damage output compared to his? VT comback factor is important here as well imo.
    Do they have an easy way around him trying to switch to a zoning gameplan?
    Right now I'm gravitating to Cammy,Ken, Laura, Urien being his worst MUs this go around. The 3 MUs I'm not too sure on from experience are Rashid or Ibuki, but given their toolset I think they would be unfavorable for him.
    PSN/CFN- Ribu_the_Luster
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  • LoyalSolLoyalSol Drunken Akuma Joined: Posts: 6,903
    edited February 17
    Here's where I think Ken's match ups are in S2.

    Advantaged: Fang, Nash
    Even: Necali, Zangief, Alex, Urien, Juri, Akuma, Ryu, Ibuki, Dhalsim, Laura, Mika, Bison, Vega
    Disadvantaged: Guile, Birdie, Chun Li, Karin, Cammy
    Horrible: Rashid, Balrog

    I think the biggest problem is that Ken plays a little too honest now until he gets a hit. Before you always had to worry about Ken jumping, but his jump in game isn't strong enough now to really scare people consistently yet at the same time they nerfed his ground game. The few buffs he did get really didn't give him access to any new "play styles" in the sense that his new overhead buff helps him in a situation he already dominated in which is corner pressure. The one frame nerf across the board hurt Ken badly since his ability to punish things in the neutral game is greatly diminished. There's a lot of situations where c.MP > Tatsu or b.MP were the optimal punishes, but now you have to settle for much weaker punishes. This in turn gives Ken less pressure situations overall.

    The loss of a lot of threats in the neutral game make Ken a lot more one dimensional in his approach. He's still viable and you can put in the time to make him good, but I think compared to many of the "great" characters in S2 he just leaves a lot to be desired. They just took way too much away from him.

    Don't get me wrong, Ken is still deadly in the corner. If he gets his optimal situation he's downright terrifying, but simply it's a lot harder for him to get started. He's a viable mid tier character, but I think a lot of the fun of playing him is kinda gone.
    Under stress you will not rise to your expectations, you will fall to your level of training.
  • LoyalSolLoyalSol Drunken Akuma Joined: Posts: 6,903
    AceKombat wrote: »
    I don't see how Laura has a slight struggle against Ken @OceanMachine . I feel that it's 5-5 , no more or less. Sure in S1 it felt terrible for Laura imo, but this time around she gained some consistency changes in strings that now feel decent to follow along... and back then in S1, doing meaty stuff as Laura against Ken was risky because meterless DP people could scout her setups and make her approach too tame... now, universally, they can't do it unless meter is involved (and Kens usually save some for his scary V-Trigger potential).

    I feel Ken still has great advantage in neutral and can still send her with ease in the corner where the match just becomes one sided. Her strings didn't really change either, she only gained more mix-ups up close, but Ken imho can play very easily outside her mix-up range due to his movement.

    Eh the biggest problem is that Ken's defense against Laura is much worse. The nerf to MP DP and LK Tatsu in addition to Laura's buffs have absolutely wrecked Ken's options. There's a lot less for Laura to worry about.

    Before Ken had probably one of the best defenses in the game which helped him a lot against Mika or Laura, but now his defense is not much better than many characters.
    Under stress you will not rise to your expectations, you will fall to your level of training.
  • ad_hocad_hoc Joined: Posts: 74
    There's a typo. You've got Chun-Laura as a 4-4 matchup.

    Reasoning why Chun-Birdie is 5-5? She destroys him in v-trigger with her multihitting moves.
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Ibuki and Juri BUFFZ Joined: Posts: 53,410 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    edited February 17
    ad_hoc wrote: »
    There's a typo. You've got Chun-Laura as a 4-4 matchup.

    Reasoning why Chun-Birdie is 5-5? She destroys him in v-trigger with her multihitting moves.

    I feel with the nerfs to IALL (the biggest issue he had), her shorter length v trigger, her nerfed punishes and his now safe on block EX bullhead (especially v trigger ex which is retarded now) he can play a more even matchup vs her. She can win the button war vs him, but once he gets the ranged game established with the v skills and sits on some meter her approach is a bit less strong than it was in Season 1.


    In these couple recent videos of Nuki vs some high ranked Birdies (including Crusher) Nuki tends to struggle in the neutral a lot more than in Season 1 and once they get the trash on the ground it forces him to respect Birdie's ground game a lot. Before you could just bypass all this stuff with IALL and EX bullhead was unsafe on block, but now with the changes it definitely seems more of an evened out match



    Kunoichi is always in V Trigger

    BUFF CITY.  Population IBUKI


    SFV: Ibuki (Main Bae), Juri (Buffed Bae), Chun Li (Needs Buffs Bae)

    KOF XIV: Nakoruru/Iori/KDash

    SFIV: Nobody hate that shit (PROTIP: Everyone on SRK hates SFIV)

    3S: Ibuki (main), Alex

    If I ever pick up Xrd: Johnny

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  • SmokeMaxXSmokeMaxX T.O. of A.R.K. Joined: Posts: 7,974
    Imo chun is still bad for birdie. Better but not even. S1 was like 7 3, s2 is like 6 4.
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Ibuki and Juri BUFFZ Joined: Posts: 53,410 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    edited February 17
    I personally haven't seen anything that makes it worth pushing the matchup past even. Like maybe slight advantage for Chun now at best. Maybe in another month or 2 I might have a different opinion on it, but Birdie already get more potential damage out of the neutral than Chun does and has more options to close the gap on her than Gief does.

    I feel Gief is still likely advantageous for her since there's like 2 or 3 buttons that she can hit and there really isn't much he can do to stop it until he gets V Trigger. She doesn't need to use fireball much in that matchup (or in general) so the headbutt meter buff is negligible. Lot more options for Birdie in comparison.

    I currently have that match listed as even in the mock up chart, but whenever we do gather info for a more concrete chart that match would most likely go in her favor either as 6 or 5.5

    Kunoichi is always in V Trigger

    BUFF CITY.  Population IBUKI


    SFV: Ibuki (Main Bae), Juri (Buffed Bae), Chun Li (Needs Buffs Bae)

    KOF XIV: Nakoruru/Iori/KDash

    SFIV: Nobody hate that shit (PROTIP: Everyone on SRK hates SFIV)

    3S: Ibuki (main), Alex

    If I ever pick up Xrd: Johnny

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  • tntdsctntdsc Joined: Posts: 21
    Birdie's MUs
    Akuma 5.5
    Alex 5.5
    Balrog 4.5
    Birdie -
    Cammy 4.5
    Chun Li 4.5
    Dhalsim 4
    F.A.N.G 5
    Guile 4
    Ibuki 5
    Juri 5
    Karin 5
    Ken 5
    Laura 4.5
    M. Bison 5
    Nash 5
    Necalli 4.5
    R. Mika 5
    Rashid 5
    Ryu 5.5
    Urien 4
    Vega 5
    Zangief 6
  • QuarkQuark Joined: Posts: 3,985
    I don't see how Sim beats Birdie 6-4 with EX bullhead being -2 now. Birdie can fuck up Dhalsim as much as anyone else once he gets in, and keeping him out is very hard when he has a fast, far-reaching 3f armored gap closer that's safe on block. that he can mix up with EX derp dive once he scares you into not pressing buttons. sim also has a particular weakness to command grabs

    that's not to say that sim doesn't still have a big advantage in neutral - just that a good birdie will get enough opportunities to even things out.

    fchamp has it 5-5 and I'm inclined to agree
    "Please understand, I never had a secret chart
    To get me to the heart of this or any other matter"
  • NecrotrophicNecrotrophic Isn't a communist. Joined: Posts: 5,594
    One way we could be more objective about our findings here is to have most of the characters oki listed. At the very least, on knockdowns.

    Thoughts?
    Northeast PA
    570 Necro
  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 8,385
    edited February 19
    Why would that be important? Gief has probably the best oki in the entire game off his command grabs yet nobody but a few Jap players call him top tier. Cammy on the other hand has very poor/limited oki yet everyone agrees she's very good.
    [SFV] Laura, Vega [3S] Alex, Ken
    [UNIEL] Orie [Xrd] Leo
    [BBCF] Bullet [T7] Claudio
  • Dime_xDime_x Wasting time Joined: Posts: 9,741
    Probably because it's at least a start at trying something scientific rather than just random rumblings.

    An even better idea would be to make a list of "strong tools in sf5" then rank every character on how they rate amongst those tools... then add up the rankings and get your total for your theory top tier.

    And if the theory top tier turns out to not be as good as the "known" top tier that means you may have missed some tools, or your list is an indicator of the future.


    But LOL like anyone would ever try and do that. People wouldn't even be able to agree on what's a good tool or not.

    Gettin' my derp on.
  • NecrotrophicNecrotrophic Isn't a communist. Joined: Posts: 5,594
    edited February 19
    Why would that be important? Gief has probably the best oki in the entire game off his command grabs yet nobody but a few Jap players call him top tier. Cammy on the other hand has very poor/limited oki yet everyone agrees she's very good.

    so we can make evidence based claims instead of unsupported ones.

    oki is one aspect of what makes a character good. Just because I'm saying we should list this doesn't mean we should ignore everything else.

    if we have everything listed, and updated to be accurate then we can point to things in a more objective way.
    Northeast PA
    570 Necro
  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 8,385
    edited February 19
    I'm not against it, but then we should make similar lists about damage outputs, walk speeds, pokes range, anti-airs etc.
    Also since this is a MU thread and not just a tier list thread what really counts is how each character's tools play against the tools of his/her opponent. Like a character might have the best projectile in the game, but if everyone else has good anti-projectile tools it doesn't count that much.
    [SFV] Laura, Vega [3S] Alex, Ken
    [UNIEL] Orie [Xrd] Leo
    [BBCF] Bullet [T7] Claudio
  • NecrotrophicNecrotrophic Isn't a communist. Joined: Posts: 5,594
    edited February 19
    Thats what I mean, we can point to things that are objectively true about each character when making claims about matchups.

    We can list everything, but I think "Oki" is the low hanging fruit. Should be easy to gather this.
    Northeast PA
    570 Necro
  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 8,385
    I think oki itself is rather complex because you need to evaluate how many moves give you a knockdown, which type of knockdown it is (backrollable/not-backrollable), how many tools the character has to cover both quickrise and backroll and if he/she has tools to easily cover both.
    On an additional layer we might also consider how easy it is to score those K/Ds with said moves.
    [SFV] Laura, Vega [3S] Alex, Ken
    [UNIEL] Orie [Xrd] Leo
    [BBCF] Bullet [T7] Claudio
  • ValoonValoon Joined: Posts: 1,798
    Heres mine for Ken, I am no pro tho but I guess it's more opinions.
    Left is Ken.

    Ken VS:

    Akuma = 5.5 - 4.5
    Alex = 5.5 - 4.5
    Balrog (Boxer) = 4 - 6
    Birdie = 5 - 5
    Cammy = 4.5 - 5.5
    Chun Li = 5 - 5
    Dhalsim = 5.5 - 4.5
    F.A.N.G = 6 - 4
    Guile = 4.5 - 5.5
    Ibuki = 5 - 5
    Juri = 5 - 5
    Karin = 5 - 5
    Laura = 5 - 5
    M.Bison (Dictator) = 5 - 5
    Nash = 6 - 4
    Necalli = 5 - 5
    R. Mika = 5 - 5
    Rashid = 4 - 6
    Ryu = 5.5 - 4.5
    Urien = 4.5 - 5.5
    Vega (Claw) = 6-4
    Zangief = 5 - 5


    Long story short garbage matchups are Rog and Rashid. I almost put a 7-3 on Rashid because I saw Momochi vs Gachikun and that was crazy how bad it looked.
    I think Rashid is the worst matchup for Ken.
    [SFV] Ken
    [USFIV] Ken
    [GG-XRD] Sol
    [Tekken 7] Dragunov Training mode
  • HNIC MikeHNIC Mike Joined: Posts: 9,938
    Ryu matches

    Advantage vs- Vega

    Even vs- Akuma, Chun, Karin, Ken, Fang, Alex

    Disadvantage vs- Birdie, Cammy, Sim, Ibuki, Juri, Laura, Bison, Nash, Necalli, Mika, Urien, Gief

    Get fucked vs-Rog, Guile, Rashid
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Ibuki and Juri BUFFZ Joined: Posts: 53,410 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    edited February 19
    Quark wrote: »
    I don't see how Sim beats Birdie 6-4 with EX bullhead being -2 now. Birdie can fuck up Dhalsim as much as anyone else once he gets in, and keeping him out is very hard when he has a fast, far-reaching 3f armored gap closer that's safe on block. that he can mix up with EX derp dive once he scares you into not pressing buttons. sim also has a particular weakness to command grabs

    that's not to say that sim doesn't still have a big advantage in neutral - just that a good birdie will get enough opportunities to even things out.

    fchamp has it 5-5 and I'm inclined to agree

    I just had it down in my mock up chart because I remember 6 4 was what people were saying during Season 1. Sounds like it's a different match now.
    One way we could be more objective about our findings here is to have most of the characters oki listed. At the very least, on knockdowns.

    Thoughts?

    Whether it really pertains a ton to matchups is questionable, but I guess it's nice to just have more numbers and formulas to talk about which some people like I guess.

    I could post Dafeetlee's Season 2 oki for Ibuki if I find it. Ibuki's oki is so derp easy compared to the other cast it's pretty funny. Sometimes people combo into HK kazekiri which then actually forces you to play the neutral/backrise game with people, but other than that everything is neutral tech only or you're in an air reset so get fucked.


    Kunoichi is always in V Trigger

    BUFF CITY.  Population IBUKI


    SFV: Ibuki (Main Bae), Juri (Buffed Bae), Chun Li (Needs Buffs Bae)

    KOF XIV: Nakoruru/Iori/KDash

    SFIV: Nobody hate that shit (PROTIP: Everyone on SRK hates SFIV)

    3S: Ibuki (main), Alex

    If I ever pick up Xrd: Johnny

    PSN: PervyJin01

    CFN: PervyJin01 (PS4) Twitch: c88deviljin01

  • QuarkQuark Joined: Posts: 3,985
    the oki chart thing might be good to set up another thread for but I don't think it belongs in this one
    "Please understand, I never had a secret chart
    To get me to the heart of this or any other matter"
  • LoyalSolLoyalSol Drunken Akuma Joined: Posts: 6,903
    Valoon wrote: »
    Long story short garbage matchups are Rog and Rashid. I almost put a 7-3 on Rashid because I saw Momochi vs Gachikun and that was crazy how bad it looked.
    I think Rashid is the worst matchup for Ken.

    I've been watching each and every good Ken player I know get destroyed by Rashid. The match up was a little tough to play in S1, but completely manageable. S2 Ken just can't open up Rashid as often as Rashid opens him up and worse yet Rashid gets out of the corner too damn easily.
    Under stress you will not rise to your expectations, you will fall to your level of training.
  • Dime_xDime_x Wasting time Joined: Posts: 9,741
    edited February 20
    LoyalSol wrote: »
    Valoon wrote: »
    Long story short garbage matchups are Rog and Rashid. I almost put a 7-3 on Rashid because I saw Momochi vs Gachikun and that was crazy how bad it looked.
    I think Rashid is the worst matchup for Ken.

    I've been watching each and every good Ken player I know get destroyed by Rashid. The match up was a little tough to play in S1, but completely manageable. S2 Ken just can't open up Rashid as often as Rashid opens him up and worse yet Rashid gets out of the corner too damn easily.

    What changed about kens tools or rashids tools that has made rashid unopenable?

    Kens blockbeaters have stayed the same so it seems like you are more than likely referring to neutral? What about the neutral has changed from S1 to S2?


    I ask for pure academics as I don't play either character, but have dabbled in both.
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • HNIC MikeHNIC Mike Joined: Posts: 9,938
    Probably ex tatsu. That was like a catch all answer if you got out buttoned by a character.
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Ibuki and Juri BUFFZ Joined: Posts: 53,410 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    @LoyalSol what is he doing specifically with the tornado to get it to stuff the ex?

    Kunoichi is always in V Trigger

    BUFF CITY.  Population IBUKI


    SFV: Ibuki (Main Bae), Juri (Buffed Bae), Chun Li (Needs Buffs Bae)

    KOF XIV: Nakoruru/Iori/KDash

    SFIV: Nobody hate that shit (PROTIP: Everyone on SRK hates SFIV)

    3S: Ibuki (main), Alex

    If I ever pick up Xrd: Johnny

    PSN: PervyJin01

    CFN: PervyJin01 (PS4) Twitch: c88deviljin01

  • LoyalSolLoyalSol Drunken Akuma Joined: Posts: 6,903
    edited February 21
    LoyalSol what is he doing specifically with the tornado to get it to stuff the ex?

    It's primarily a spacing trick. Basically you are trying to make it so the tornado is still on top of Ken by the time EX DP runs out of invincibility frames.

    But what makes it annoying is that the spacing to get the the Tornado to trade is actually a pretty good range for Rashid.
    Under stress you will not rise to your expectations, you will fall to your level of training.
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Ibuki and Juri BUFFZ Joined: Posts: 53,410 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Ah ok thats what I figured. Frames running out

    Kunoichi is always in V Trigger

    BUFF CITY.  Population IBUKI


    SFV: Ibuki (Main Bae), Juri (Buffed Bae), Chun Li (Needs Buffs Bae)

    KOF XIV: Nakoruru/Iori/KDash

    SFIV: Nobody hate that shit (PROTIP: Everyone on SRK hates SFIV)

    3S: Ibuki (main), Alex

    If I ever pick up Xrd: Johnny

    PSN: PervyJin01

    CFN: PervyJin01 (PS4) Twitch: c88deviljin01

  • Dime_xDime_x Wasting time Joined: Posts: 9,741
    I think If people want to talk matchup balance a good way to do that is to talk about risk versus reward, tool versus tool and to a lesser extent, ease of gameplay..

    Like I don't know how necalli fares versus ryu but it seems like an advantaged matchup for necalli because of the tool versus tool interaction between necallis v skill and ryus fireball.

    But that might only be against a ryu that just wants to throw fireballs. If the ryu wants to go in and get his hands dirty the matchup seems to start to really even out... till necalli gets v trigger.

    So that's how I'd score the matchup:

    Slight favor necalli against an aggressive ryu. Big favor necalli against a defensive ryu. But since aggressive seems to be the way to go for ryu I would just list it as slight advantage necalli.


    ^^

    A breakdown like that would be nice for matchups. Whether it is correct or incorrect is immaterial, seeing what players think about matchups as far as what strategies are hard to deal with and what moves gives them a hard time... or their opponent a hard time, is the primary reason for a thread like this.

    Who cares about numbers if we don't know why the numbers are reached?

    Like @LoyalSol ken breakdown against rashid is on point whether it holds up to scrutiny in a year or more time, or not.
    Gettin' my derp on.
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