Option Selects

jsfinisjsfinis Joined: Posts: 55
edited August 2016 in Ken
As the game progresses, SF4-esque OSes have started showing up, as far as I'm aware mostly with Ryu (Tokido, for instance, does jump heavy -> OS parry; if the opponent blocks and v-reversals, parry comes out and he punishes). A friend of mine has been doing jab -> jab (parry) as an answer to Chun's IA legs (double jab on hit, jab to parry on whiff).

Share your OSes if you have em, otherwise let's talk OS mechanics in this game.

1) Jump-in OS. Oldie and a goodie. I haven't tested this (seems less prevalent with the lack of invincible backdashes) but a Ryu friend says he does jump-in OS hk.tatsu vs Dhlasim's teleport.

2) Chain priority. The interesting one. You can't hide a normal (e.g, sweep) input anymore, but V-skill works. For instance, jab -> jab (skill) vs Dhalsim's wakeup means you'll get jab -> run if he teleports, otherwise jab - jab if he blocks.

howard.roark says it can be done with specials, though very briefly trying out his lk.tatsu OS I can only get jab (lk.tatsu), no luck hiding it in the chain i.e jab -> jab (lk.tatsu), lk.tatsu just comes out after the first jab.
At this point in the match the boxer is more scared of my offense so be ready for the vreversal. jab option select light tatsu/grab that shit.

3) Whiff buffering. Shouldn't need to be explained, whiff a normal while doing your special to get it to come out on hit/block.

So all told, it seems like chain OSes are where it's at right now. Let me know about the OSes you use against certain matchups.
Post edited by jsfinis on

Comments

  • ValoonValoon Joined: Posts: 1,980
    I do :

    - the st.hp xx run OS (basically input the run late enough so it comes out only on CC)
    - Starting to try to implement the jump back OS which is basically : downback upback + throw. Block hits, tech throws and jump back with lk on nothing.
    - One that I don't use much for some reason is st.lp xx lk.tatsu and throw. With the right timing it tatsus on hit and throw on block.
    [SFV] Ken
    [USFIV] Ken
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  • jsfinisjsfinis Joined: Posts: 55
    edited August 2016
    Noice, thanks for listing the ones I forgot, helps flesh out the basics.

    I scoffed at the jump-back "OS" at the beginning (didn't seem like much of an OS when you're really relying on the jump-back with just the added benefit of safeguarding your 4f pre-jump against perfectly-timed throws), but with every other defensive option nerfed to shit in 5, it really is very strong (that is, jumping is strong in this game in general). Essential against Cammy, Karin MUs IMO.

    That lk.tatsu OS is real interesting. Is it like the auto-OS? How does the lk.tatsu not come out on block? It definitely sounds a bit tricky to pull off, gotta be pretty fast.
    Post edited by jsfinis on
  • ValoonValoon Joined: Posts: 1,980
    edited August 2016
    You have to do it right at the right timing so it doesn't come out on block, it's actually not exremely hard to do but it is fast yes. Basically, the timing you do st.lp > throw, you put tatsu in the middle.


    You can also do just the tatsu OS and not input the throw it's way easier, you get tatsu on hit but on block you do nothing.


    I am not consistent with it yet myself but it's useful.

    [SFV] Ken
    [USFIV] Ken
    [GG-XRD] Sol
  • Only Ash RemainsOnly Ash Remains Joined: Posts: 60
    I do c.lp s.lp with a throw input inbetween. It'll grab v'reversal and hit invincible moves that are vulnerable to throw, while allowing you to confirm DP on hit or pressure on block. You can do it with c.mp to beat v'reversal.

    I late run cancel s.hp and s.rh, same with vtrigger. Everyone does in this game. You can OS the s.mk s.hk target combo so that s.hk only comes out on hit but it's much easier to confirm than to os.

    I'm not too good at the jump back throw tech OS.

    Fun fact, you can still proximity block OS with specials and normals. It feels easier than in IV, even.

    A little trick I do to buffer s.lp and s.lk into specials without the specials coming out is to hold the second button after I input the special. Strangely enough, it also makes OSing specials against poor wakeup easier instead of having your normal cancel into the special.
  • jsfinisjsfinis Joined: Posts: 55
    edited August 2016
    Super interesting stuff, thanks guys.

    No way, legit proximity block OSes are still in the game?! I saw the Ryu parry one but thought it only applied to VSkill. I'm gonna lab them out now, they could solve the Sim MU on their own. Ryu obviously gets the most from it, that asshole XD

    *Actually, I don't think there's a legit proxy OS in this game b/c of how short proximity blocking is; you only block for a split-second, unlike 4 where the block stance was held for a bit.
    Post edited by jsfinis on
  • SunghoonSunghoon Joined: Posts: 51
    edited August 2016
    Here's an interesting option select using chains to hide your dash inputs. Try to input the 3rd jab as toward+LP to make the dash buffer easier.

    cr.lp, cr.lp, st.lp xx dash

    - if the opponent stand blocks, they will walk backwards for 1 or 2 frames resulting in a whiffed st.lp straight into an OS'ed dash.
    - if the opponent crouch blocks, the dash doesnt come out and you get a jab chain (true blockstring!) leaving you at +2. This pushes a Ryu out of his sweep range but Ken is still able to hit with st.hk or try to contest with a sweep (5f gap with a heavy but whiffs if they dont press anything)
    - if the opponent gets hit, you can hitconfirm into a LK tatsu or a HP dp. The HP dp finisher is character dependant but offers slightly more damage and rewards you with a free empty jump.
    - best part is if they mash jabs, their jab will whiff and your dash will come up during their jab recovery frames. not part of the OS but something to note; cr.lp, cr.lp, st.lp~cr.mk whiff punishes these stand jabs

    I have been using this when opponents are getting wise to the standard cr.mp, st.lk strings or the st.lp, b+mp which doesnt leave you in a favorable position. Since Kens normals have a lot of pushback (with the exception of b+mp but that leaves you in their face and -2) its tough to get back in after you pushed yourself out trying to hitconfirm. Instead of trying to vskil run cancel Kens normals which we all wished he can do, the idea is to hide dash inputs in blockstrings and use that to get back into the opponents face.
    Post edited by Sunghoon on
  • jsfinisjsfinis Joined: Posts: 55
    edited August 2016
    Sunghoon wrote: »
    Here's an interesting option select using chains to hide your dash inputs. Try to input the 3rd jab as toward+LP to make the dash buffer easier.

    cr.lp, cr.lp, st.lp xx dash

    That's a very creative solution to getting pushed out. Sounds a little situational and mediocre damage if they do get meatied trying to press buttons, but the theory behind it is sound. Could definitely be expanded to other options, thanks for the input Sunghoon.
    Post edited by jsfinis on
  • SunghoonSunghoon Joined: Posts: 51
    edited August 2016
    Try this after forward throw: Vskill asap and hold back + st.hk

    This is a pretty braindead shimmy that will block 4f reversals and make neutral throws whiff (except bison!). This works because Kens forward throw knocks your opponent down for 18frames (gets up on frame 19) and the minimum vskill run is 22 frames, leaving you at -3. Microstep back is an excellent shimmy in this particular situation because the vskill run leaves you just at the very tip of neutral grab range. Since you are -3, you are taking a step backwards for 1 frame as your opponents 5f neutral grab comes in causing it to whiff by a pixel. This is possible because grabs dont lock your character in blockstun unlike sf4. Kind of the reason why necalli's slow ass 8f command grab is an issue, you can tick command throw in training mode but against a live opponent they can simply backwalk away from all of that tick pressure.


    jsfinis wrote: »
    That's a very creative solution to trying to getting pushed out. Sounds a little situational and mediocre damage if they do get meatied trying to press buttons, but the theory behind it is sound. Could definitely be expanded to other options, thanks for the input Sunghoon.

    The focus here is pressure and momentum to rack up damage from stray hits as youre going in. Do you remember third strike? there were very little combos outside of counterhits and most of your damage came from mixing up highs and lows in your ground approach to prevent the opponent from lazily parrying. Even if you dont combo, those random hits as ken is going in usually adds up to lethal range once ken has super stocked. Here in SF5 i dont mind doing cr.lp, cr.lp, st.lp xx HP srk for 137damage and 254 stun, I think its a fair for its relative safety and ability to vskill run up to their face at +1 or +2, resetting the situation. Plus they cant uppercut inbetween the jabs

    Do this hit confirm twice, grab them once, add in a stray cr.mp or two and you have an opponent who is very close to being finished with a counterhit cr.mp, linked super. Might need a cr.mp xx Vtrigger into TC1 for that last bit of safe damage
  • MGSMGS RTJRecon Joined: Posts: 1,057
    why would youbput yourself at minus frames on a throw? when you could dash up for better options?
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  • jsfinisjsfinis Joined: Posts: 55
    edited August 2016
    MGS wrote: »
    why would youbput yourself at minus frames on a throw? when you could dash up for better options?

    You wouldn't really, but it's another layer after you've done throw -> dash up cr.mk CH over and over. Once they get wise (they really still don't, even up at diamond) to the fact that you're +4ish on a single dash after a throw, a run is visually-similar enough to a dash that you could sprinkle in Sunghoon's shimmy/throw (sparingly) after establishing positive frames.
  • SunghoonSunghoon Joined: Posts: 51
    edited August 2016
    Actually, this doesnt work when youve established frame advantage and the opponent is too scared to press buttons. The main purpose is to to bait out reversals and throws without requiring any sort of manual timing.

    Most people know ken is +4 if he dashes after his throw but leaves it leaves him at a bit of a distance. Less people are familiar with the run and how it puts you right up in their face, forcing them to make a new decision right then and now. Think about the whole scenario and whats going on the minds of the opponent. You've just grabbed your opponent and hes expecting the standard dash cr.mk after your throw but you chose to run instead, usually netting you a free throw the first time you do it. If they fall for that, youve just dealt 2 throws worth of damage right there. Now you have a trained/angry opponent who is very aware of your run setup and next time you throw them, they will most likely have a DP prebuffered ready to fire the moment they see your run animation... which you block lazily.

    At least thats what my friend says is going on his mind when we are sparring. Just the fact that youve gotten your opponent to even consider wakeup uppercut is a success in of itself. The dp will never hit in this shimmy setup, yet you have the opponent adding it to his list of considerations on wakeup. The more things you have to consider, the slower your reaction speed
    Post edited by Sunghoon on
  • MGSMGS RTJRecon Joined: Posts: 1,057
    i suppose it could work. i just dont see how viable it is against characters witha 3 frame jab. youre basically giving them a free combo. unless youre into running up and throwing your own dp. me id rather take the damage off the throw and pressure safely. once the throw dash cr.mk is restablished ppl won't walk back then you can go for overheads.
    Foxhound's own
    <<Grey Fox>>
    "You've been failing for years and call yourselves vets thats bold, motherfucker you're not a vet you're just old"
  • SunghoonSunghoon Joined: Posts: 51
    MGS wrote: »
    i suppose it could work. i just dont see how viable it is against characters witha 3 frame jab. youre basically giving them a free combo. unless youre into running up and throwing your own dp. me id rather take the damage off the throw and pressure safely. once the throw dash cr.mk is restablished ppl won't walk back then you can go for overheads.

    I should of highlighted that -3 a bit bigger. Yes any 3f move will gaurdntee a punish, but they will have to really be looking out for it to convert into anything meaninful
  • MGSMGS RTJRecon Joined: Posts: 1,057
    Sunghoon wrote: »

    I should of highlighted that -3 a bit bigger. Yes any 3f move will gaurdntee a punish, but they will have to really be looking out for it to convert into anything meaninful

    yeah for sure, unless they have a v trigger and install. cammy can confirm a jab into a knockdown. karin. hell even ken can get some beefy stuff if you commit to doing it. ill try it out a bit this weekend.
    Foxhound's own
    <<Grey Fox>>
    "You've been failing for years and call yourselves vets thats bold, motherfucker you're not a vet you're just old"
  • SunghoonSunghoon Joined: Posts: 51
    In my personal experience cammys jabjab xx spiral arrow as well as necalli's jabjab xx EX stomps is what has been consistently punishing me in that setup. Otherwise, I have been getting away with it as long as you use it on average 0.5~0.75 per round. Even a sparring buddy of mine who mains ryu recently switched to using st.lp, cr.lp xx HP.dp has troubles consistently punishing me
  • worldwarrior45worldwarrior45 Add me for some games World-Warrior Joined: Posts: 34
    I'm new to OS. When people are saying st.hp xx run OS (basically input the run late enough so it comes out only on CC) does that mean press hp twice or hp then a delay before pressing run?
  • jsfinisjsfinis Joined: Posts: 55
    I'm new to OS. When people are saying st.hp xx run OS (basically input the run late enough so it comes out only on CC) does that mean press hp twice or hp then a delay before pressing run?

    HP then a delay before run. It's a reaction/OS hybrid; note the timing for a perfect "OS" is quite a bit tighter than ST.HK CC. I personally just react to the sound of shattering glass.

    Now if only we could get a true OS for ST.HP -> Run on hit/block, non-CC. It would make ST.HP pressure so much more legit, though AFAIK there is no run timing you can get that would differentiate between hit/CC and block; you can get close, but you will get random run activations every now and then.
  • worldwarrior45worldwarrior45 Add me for some games World-Warrior Joined: Posts: 34
    Thanks for the reply gna give some of these a go
  • won3dwon3d Joined: Posts: 6
    Not sure if it is original or useful, because it is a bit too situational/difficult for me to incorporate in my game (2nd kid really eats up all your spare time!). Hopefully someone finds this useful!

    So one thing Ken seems to lack is a setup that covers both quick and back recovery. Here's one I found that counter hits 3 frame normals.

    Background: when you get a 3-hit MK tatsu in trigger, you can whiff LK tatsu and that will put you at point blank on wakeup. What's interesting is that you corpse hop/side switch on quick recover, so which side you end up on depends on what the opponent mashes. Instruction are going to assume 1st player side.

    The OS is to follow up with 6MP. On back recover, you get regular st. MP hitting meaty on the first frame. On quick recover, you side switch so you get chin buster. If you can read and confirm off a single medium button, then this is all you need and you can follow up in the usual way.

    If you are like me, you're going to have trouble reading which side you're hitting from (if any), so the solution is...another option select!

    Then you can buffer a fireball (236) hit both a punch and kick as a hit confirm. On quick recovery, you get tatsu, on back recovery you get a DP (assuming you are still holding 6). Almost any combination of buttons works as you'd expect, except those that include MP + MK which will run cancel. Even HP + HK works because you won't be able to re-trigger.

    Without meter, I think the best option is HP + MK. You get some damage, and you loop back into the mixup on quick rise. If you have a v-trigger setup for MP DP, then maybe MP + HK or MP + LK are good options. With meter, you could do LP + MK and follow up with EX DP (both options) for more damage.

    Hopefully this is useful/interesting to someone and still works in season 3!

    Deleted scene:

    One thing that looked interesting but didn't bear any fruit was exploiting the difference between the chin buster chain cancel window and linking after st. MP. After 6MP, you can hit HP then LK so that you get chin buster 2nd or st LK as a follow up, but this kind of sucks. Chin buster 2nd is unsafe, unless you cancel into EX FB to retain frame advantage. st LK only links from st MP on counter hit, and trades with 3 frame normals on blocked MP.
  • Mr. WarzardMr. Warzard CvS2 Commissioner Gordon Joined: Posts: 788
    Wow, this looks actually like some practical backrise tech (unlike other options, which usually require heavy damage sacrifices). Good job.
    Holding a shovel over SF4's grave.
    CVS2: The Nine Ball of Fighting Games
    Apoc was right: http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/comment/556915/#Comment_556915
  • won3dwon3d Joined: Posts: 6
    I mentioned this to post to Rush G (a Ken YouTuber, @_RushG on twitter). He is where I learned the part about the V-Trigger MK Tatsu whiff LK Tatsu side switch, and posted a video follow up, just in time for WNF/Capcom Cup, in case anyone is paying attention.



    The main issue with my original OS is that you can be taking a risk to get damage off of the 6MP, because you have to cancel it, likely into the special OS, and you might eat a DP punish. You could return the stick to neutral early or try to do a half-circle instead of quarter-circle to go for a safe FB/Tatsu OS instead of DP/Tatsu, but you're giving up damage. You still get a knockdown with V Trigger FB, but I don't know if there's much you can get off of a FB knockdown.

    Rushy's thought was you have a lot more options if you only worry about 4-framers. So, instead of going into 6MP, do a cr. MP and autopilot a link into 6MP. On back recovery, the cr. MP hits meaty enough that st. MP links (actually, st. HP links! but that's not an OS) without a counter hit. This gives you 2 mediums to confirm off of which is enough time to go into whatever combo you want.

    I guess if you wanted to fully autopilot, you can follow up with 236HP, which will give you an HP DP on back recovery, and be chin buster 2nd on quick?
  • Mr. WarzardMr. Warzard CvS2 Commissioner Gordon Joined: Posts: 788
    Thanks for the update. Are there no issues with (on quickrise) the b+MP whiffing after the meaty cr.MP hits for a counterhit? I know in general that is an issue with that particular link, but it looks like the LK tatsu gets you so deep that it isn't an issue.
    Holding a shovel over SF4's grave.
    CVS2: The Nine Ball of Fighting Games
    Apoc was right: http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/comment/556915/#Comment_556915
  • won3dwon3d Joined: Posts: 6
    From the looks of Rush G's video, you're at point blank so no issue, even on counterhit. I haven't had any time to test any of this out myself -- I'm a theoretical street fighter for now, so: YMMV, no warranty express or implied, etc. I hope it works in arcade edition!
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