Juri balance/buff ideas

RaphsodyRaphsody Joined: Posts: 10
edited October 2016 in Juri
Hey guys!

As of now, Juri is widely regarded as the weakest DLC character for this season. Some even consider her as one of the worst character in the game, period. With that said, I am perfectly aware that it is way too early to make an official statement on the subject. So I will only give some ideas based on my experience with her, but I'll try not to change her gameplan too much, or make her tools completely OP. I will, however, try to explain my reasoning as much as possible behind each idea. Feel free to express yours as well; I'll edit this post if something is too strong or needs some kind of tweak.

(TL;DR Juri sucks and needs some vitamins)

Without further ado, let's start with her NORMALS:

St. MP:
  • +5 on hit (up from +4).
Here the goal is to allow Juri to combo into cr. MP, thus increasing her damage output.

Cr. MP
  • +1 on block (up from 0)?
This could very well be excessive. I don't really think she "needs" this buff, but I shooting the idea.

Cr. HP:
  • 9 frames start-up (down from 10 frames).
  • -6 on block (down from -5).
  • Slightly adjust hurtbox to avoid trades.

I hesitated on this one before changing the start-up frames. As this move causes CC, it does deserve to be riskier than say, st. HP. Hence, I decided to make it a little unsafer on block. However, I think the hurtbox change is necessary.

Cr. MK:
  • Slightly longer hitbox.
  • -4 on block (down from -3).

I don't think this move reaaally needs a buff that much. I still tried to make it a little more like Karin's cr. forward. Spacing will also be more important with the move now -4 on block. Besides, I feel like kicks fit Juri's overall style better than punches.

B. HK:

I actually don't think this move needs any change at all. In fact, I think it is quite great and underrated. Because of the change on her st. MP, her st. LK now seems fairly useless at first glance. However, it would still connect after B. HK (if anyone did not know already).

V-SYSTEM:

V-Skill:
  • 1 hit of armor and grey life (similar to SF4 focus attack).
    AND/OR
  • Can be jump cancelled.
  • 90 dmg (up from 80).
  • -12 on block (down from -10).
Again, I wasn't sure with some of these changes, as I was afraid the armored hit would break the move. Jump cancel could be a more balanced alternative. Slight damage buff to justify to use this move at all (despite v-gauge gain), and slightly less safe to compensate (not that it was safe to begin with).

V-Skill (hold):
  • 110 dmg (up from 100).
  • -20 on block (down from -18).
Same reasoning as before, though 110 dmg could be excessive.

V-Trigger:
Not too sure what to change here. Maybe combo out of overhead. Or maybe reduce the draining of v-gauge when cancelling normals or using qcf+k. The thing is, FSE was VERY strong in the right hands in SF4, and the nerf might be justified. Besides, a weaker FSE is canon story-wise.

SPECIALS:

Fuharenkyaku store:
  • -1 on block (up from -2).
  • Connects more easily in blockstrings.
Could be uncalled for,the idea was to make storage akin to its SF4 counterpart.

Fuharenkyaku LK:
3 options to consider here (initially -2 on block and +2 on hit)
  • +2 on block, +2 on hit.
  • -2 on block, +4 on hit (connects with st. LK)
  • +2 on block, +4 on hit (closest to SF4 fuhajin release)
The last option could absolutely be considered too strong, but hey one can dream. To goal here is to either increase pressure or combo capability.

Fuharenkyaku HK:
  • 100 dmg (up from 90).
Quite possibly not required considering the damage buffs mentioned above.

Fuharenkyaku EX:
  • -4 on block (down from -2).
With the other damage/pressure/combo options, EX qcf+k should not be as safe as it was, and thus not as "spammable." In other words, this would give Juri player this option: spend meter to save a qcf+k charge, or slightly better damage that require a bit more commitment.

Medium DP:
  • 5 frames start-up (down from 6 frames).
  • Fully invincible on frames 3-7 (used to be upper body and throw invincible on frames 1-5).
Lowering start-up makes it more on par with Ken's medium shoryu. Invincibility starting on frame 3 means it can still be stuffed by meaty attacks.

EX DP:
  • 4 frames start-up (down from 7 frames).
  • -35 on block (down from -31)
Here you had an EX DP with terrible start-up frames, thus making it much less suited as anti-air or reversal option than... well any other EX DP in the game really. Complete invincibility on frames 1-8 is kept untouched, but the move lost a few frame advantage on block to compensate).

Well, that's pretty much it folks. Tell me what you think.
Post edited by Raphsody on
«1345

Comments

  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 57,921 mod
    edited October 2016
    Her V Skill and c.HP could stand to be better so I agree with those there. The other stuff I don't think Capcom will budge on at all. None of the Season 2 characters have medium to medium links except Rog, but I think it's rather situational when he can use it.



    You haven't seen Urien's EX DP/headbutt if you're talking worst DP in the game. 12 frame start up and doesn't have anything near the upper area hit box. You can light meaty it on wake up and still block. And he has to charge it too meaning in tight situations you won't even have the charge to utilize how shitty it is. The only thing it has going for it is nice forward range if people are pressing you too much from a range.

    The only thing really bad about it being slow is that it gets safe jumped on easily, but there aren't many situations where you can reliably safe jump in this game any way.



    MK pinwheel is supposed to be a meterless version of Nash's EX scythe. It's meant to anti air and only for anti air. This allows her to have a meterless invincible anti air option while still having an EX DP which isn't common for a lot of the cast and gives her a strong AA game. Nash has a lot of ok AA options, but if he wants something that will flat out win in a sticky situation he has to burn meter. Long as you're in a decent spot MK pinwheel will always AA which is really strong. There isn't much any character without a meterless DP that has as strong of an AA game as Juri.

    As time goes on people won't jump at her much because she has too many solid options. This includes her super which is just a huge "don't jump" zone.
    Post edited by DevilJin 01 on

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  • GaruGaru Wanna play with me? Joined: Posts: 514
    edited October 2016
    @Raphsody

    Im not sure if you are calling for buffs or nerfs but imo your suggestion overall doesn't help her but make her more unsafe. But some of your ideas are not bad specially the V-Skill being jump cancelable and with 1 hit of armor.
    Post edited by Garu on
    SFV: Karin and Juri
    USF4: Juri, E.Ryu and Cammy
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  • RaphsodyRaphsody Joined: Posts: 10
    @DevilJin 01

    I agree to some extent on her m DP. Maybe I exaggerated a bit by calling it the worst :p though I'm not sure I'd call chariot tackle a "DP" per se haha. However, I still stand by the frame data changes. I also don't think any meterless dp should have full invincibility from frame 1.
  • RaphsodyRaphsody Joined: Posts: 10
    @Garu

    I think my title is misleading. Let's call them balance changes. Don't forget that not ALL of these should be implemented in the game. It could be one, or two, or ten changes. Since a all characters should still have some weaknesses (which even Chun Li does), it would not make sense to make all of her tools flawless.

    For example, if v-skill gets an overall buff, it should probably get some kind of drawback to make sure it's not too strong. A tool with higher reward, generally speaking, should also imply higher risk. I did make her a lot safer on her fireball storage and release though. Again, this calls for other areas where she would not be as safe.
  • MaryokutaiMaryokutai Joined: Posts: 942
    10-15% damage increase on all her specials. That's pretty much all I want. She has to work so hard to get any major damage while still having sub-par health so it makes no sense for her having such awful damage output, especially without stores and meter.
  • RaphsodyRaphsody Joined: Posts: 10
    edited October 2016
    @Maryokutai
    Yeah, either that or open up combo possibilities from some normals or lk fireball. At the same time, Rashid has a rather low damage output but amazing pressure to compensate. Better pressure options would justify Juri's as well.
  • Half BreedHalf Breed Beast Unleashed Joined: Posts: 142
    Revert back to sf4 playstyle and adjust damage and speed for sf5.....just saying.
  • Nhazul4769Nhazul4769 Joined: Posts: 20
    These are just a few suggestions I came up with:
    1) Fuharenkyaku M: Hits Overhead
    - One of Juri's main issues (I feel) is the fact that you have to store these specials before using them, but the specials don't offer much.
    - In Sf4, the reason you had to store her fireballs was because they had so much utility (Zoing Tool, Frame Trap, Combo Tool, etc)
    - The move is still unsafe on block and can be easily interrupted, so the move wouldn't be spammable or broken if it could hit overhead
    2) Standing HK: Lower Body Invinciblity, Now does the twisting animation when it Crush Counters
    - Justifies the long start-up on the move and gives another tool for playing the neutral, but has the twisting animation so Juri can't get too much off a Crush Counter hit
    - inspiration comes from Ibuki's Forward HK
    - Also gives Juri a reset option off of a Crush Counter hit
    That's really it since any other ideas I might have had were already covered by Rhapsody. In general, I feel like a lot of changes were made to Juri to separate her from her SF4 version, but not much thought went into how to complement these changes. Here's hoping Juri receives some buffs in the near future.
  • courtmcgeecourtmcgee Joined: Posts: 50
    Everyone forgot the most important she needs better throw advantage
  • courtmcgeecourtmcgee Joined: Posts: 50
    Maybe more range vega walks out for free
  • DanoninoDanonino Winning for once. Joined: Posts: 724
    edited October 2016
    - Stun output boost.

    - lk pinwheel to be -3 crouching and standing. -8 is too much. Would give her some forward moving momentum too.

    - target combo to hit crouchers.

    - CC hk to give more frame advantage. It's far too tight. Lower body invincible too.

    - cr.Hp needs help especially outside of V-Trigger. Hitbox and hirtbox adjustments at least.

    - V-Skill, charge faint needs selectable directions and/or possibly one hit of armour. Something to make it worthehile.

    - Stores, much larger hitbox (more likely to antiair, combo extensions) and a damage buff.

    - Ryos- need to hit overhead. They suck as it is, give us a reason to use em.

    -Mk store as an overhead would be nice, would be similar to Guys neckbreaker in a way.

    Never attempt the same move after you have been once thwarted!
  • StockyJamStockyJam My nigga Networkingyuppy Joined: Posts: 5,839
    Danonino wrote: »
    - Stun output boost.

    - lk pinwheel to be -3 crouching and standing. -8 is too much. Would give her some forward moving momentum too.

    - target combo to hit crouchers.

    - CC hk to give more frame advantage. It's far too tight. Lower body invincible too.

    - cr.Hp needs help especially outside of V-Trigger. Hitbox and hirtbox adjustments at least.

    - V-Skill, charge faint needs selectable directions and/or possibly one hit of armour. Something to make it worthehile.

    - Stores, much larger hitbox (more likely to antiair, combo extensions) and a damage buff.

    - Ryos- need to hit overhead. They suck as it is, give us a reason to use em.

    -Mk store as an overhead would be nice, would be similar to Guys neckbreaker in a way.

    agree with everything.
    ev-ry-thang!!! especially the last two
  • Nhazul4769Nhazul4769 Joined: Posts: 20
    I'm not too sure about making all versions of Ryodansatsu an Overhead. However, I do feel that L,M, and H Ryodansatsu could use some form of projectile invincibility, ether on start-up or after start-up. I also feel that Ex Ryodansatsu could be made a tad bit faster so at least she can combo into it from standing HP.
  • RevelantRevelant Joined: Posts: 52
    Yeah you are asking too much. Alot of what you are saying is unreasonable.

    mk. release being a overhead sounds fine. because it should be powerful being a charge move, but just remember its the only release that can be reliably combo'd afterwards. So its already powerful. It also need to punish low attacks and be classed as airborne to be throw invincible.

    Ryos being overheads sounds way too overpowered, they already are combo finishers and the anti fireball move.

    V-skill having armor would only be good it taking white damage lead to building v-trigger. But other than that I don't see this as a good design system. V-skills are meant to be a core move to your arsenal if you are a 3 bar character. Juris v-skill while I like it, is too telegraphed for high level play. At low level its pretty much abuse but once you move past silver it more likely the death of you.
    If the v-skill cancel was faster or lead to some sort of alternative front attack then I would be much more happier.

    Her stun game is fine.

    The others seem fair
  • Nhazul4769Nhazul4769 Joined: Posts: 20
    Fair enough, the Ryo changes may be unnecessary now thinking about it and I do agree that giving V-Skill armor is too much (V-Skill is already pretty good as is). Outside of maybe giving a slight decrease in cool-down when she cancels the actual dash, I don't think I would touch it.

  • brainpipebrainpipe SCIENCE! Joined: Posts: 1,165
    edited October 2016
    There's plenty of little things that I think she could benefit from, but who knows. It can always be a bit hard to tell what would become overpowered. I can say the few things I'd like to see most and a few of those are definitely echoed in other posts here

    - Target combo doesn't whiff on crouching opponents.
    - Faster backward walk speed. (This alone I think will help her play a better footsie game before even getting to specific hitbox/hurtbox changes.)
    - Slightly reduced recovery time on her forward throw. Enough to throw a fireball without trading with a wake up button.
    - Larger hitbox and possibly reduce hurtbox on charges.
    - Make Charges 0 on block, Or increase pushback on block. I am not sure which would be more fair. but if her charges end her pressure she should be pushed out to safety.
    - Reduce hurtbox on vskill charge a little bit.
    - Reduce horizontal hurtbox on cr.MP
    - Increase horizontal hitbox on cr.HP
    - Reduce her lower hurtbox on RH so that it hops lows reliably. Keep the range the same so she is still vulnerable to standing pokes.
    - Slightly more frame advantage on her crush counter's so she has a little more time to combo reliably.
    - Make her flip kick have a hitbox in the air and not be a ground pound.
    - maker her overhead a crush counter. (This one is likely wishful thinking. But Necali has one, so fuck it!)
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  • DanoninoDanonino Winning for once. Joined: Posts: 724
    edited November 2016
    V-skill cancel needs something. I just thought of armour because I can imagine using it like Guys ex run stop, a parry of sorts.

    The overheads are wishful thinking but I do think she could do with the teeniest of extra stun.

    I'm in a god awful habit of using lk pinwheel as a blockstring ender as it moves me forward and when spaced a bit is kinda (usually) safe. Unless they crouching. I need to stop that actually.
    Never attempt the same move after you have been once thwarted!
  • LockMLockM Joined: Posts: 2,664
    edited November 2016
    You should be able to feint a charged vskill early. So you would be able to do a charged vskill through projectile and feint, then still get the punish with say a st.mp.
    Other stuff like like CC cr.hp xx vskill xx feint, cr.hp et

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  • GaruGaru Wanna play with me? Joined: Posts: 514
    To be honest Juri has way too many problems to be adressed in the first balance patch, imo she wont be consider relevant till maybe the 3rd or 4th balance patch so sad but it is what it is.
    SFV: Karin and Juri
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  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 57,921 mod
    edited November 2016
    Hsien Chang placed higher with her at a big tournament with lots of hard hitters than Tampa Bison who's been playing Bison since day one. She's officially relevant. Can't remember the last time Bison has top 12'd anything big and he's been out in his current form since like December of last year. Not every character is top tier, but as of now it seems that Juri players have to step it up more than her being bad. She's just a character you put work into and get results off of that.

    Not in the same step as other truly bad characters that you don't get real reward for no matter how much work you put into. She doesn't have any matchups as bad as Gief, Bison or Fang have and has a higher ceiling for tech advancement.



    IMO she's just small buffs away from being high tier and that's all you're really going to get from Capcom. The rest is how the meta revolves around the characters since Capcom is very particular about balance these days. This is the same game where people assumed Ryu's nerfs would make him low tier and people still thought Bison was good even though he got nerfed into the ground before launch. He already didn't have a stable neutral game, defensive game or V Gauge building game which automatically sets you up for a terrible time in this game. Juri is much more stable.

    Plus there's the chance of new mechanics being added like extra V Skills, V Triggers or just something entirely new that can shake up the meta and where the characters fall.
    Post edited by DevilJin 01 on

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  • RevelantRevelant Joined: Posts: 52
    I would like them to fix some of these problems when the balance patch comes out.

  • brainpipebrainpipe SCIENCE! Joined: Posts: 1,165
    edited November 2016
    Revelant wrote: »
    I would like them to fix some of these problems when the balance patch comes out.


    I like the things you chose to highlight. I feel like she isn't really all that bad, just some decisions on hitboxes/hurtboxes/frame data going on under the hood of the game need some adjustment to be properly functional. Her overall design, to me, is not in need of some massive overhaul.

    The only thing you left out is that her hazanshu can also be thrown on the way down, while still visibly airborne and that it has no hitbox until it hits the ground, which i find irritating as all hell.

    And you can also highlight that her RH doesn't beat all lows in the same way her overhead doesn't beat all lows. I will easily go over Urien's sweep, but I will lose or trade with Ryu's more often than not for example.
    UMVC3:
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  • RaphsodyRaphsody Joined: Posts: 10
    @DevilJin 01 Let's not forget that many of the buffs I suggest are mutually exclusive :P For example, a damage buff in one area (say, cr mp) would mean she would not require it in another (say, v skill). They're just ideas after all
  • RaphsodyRaphsody Joined: Posts: 10
    I really don't think Ryo needs to be an overhead (maaaaybe EX, but even then it wouldn't be necessary. That's not what the move is used for). I do think it could use some projectile invincibility near the end though. Mk release may or may not need be an overhead... Don't forget that it leads to combos. But if it was, I would make it more punishable on block (yes, more than -6. Maybe -8). I was really hesitant to say armour on vskill since I thought it could be kinda OP. Grey life would be mandatory if it had one hit of armour. I really think jump cancelling or faster cancelling would be more appropriate.
  • Fresh314Fresh314 Joined: Posts: 71
    Revelant wrote: »
    I would like them to fix some of these problems when the balance patch comes out.


    I agree with the things you highlighted in this video. Most of those properties seem unintentional so capcom should make her hitboxes/hurtboxes/properties more consistent come balance patch time.

    I don't think ryo needs a hitbox while airborne because the move it's modeled after (hazanshu) never had a hitbox while airborne. It's not meant to stop jumps or apply pressure like laura/abel wheelkick, it's supposed to go over lows and fireballs and get you in. I think target combo whiffing on crouch is intentional. The move looks like it shouldn't hit crouchers and ken has a similar kick tc where the second hit whiffs crouchers so I think that's design choice.

    Not sure if it's just me messing up the timing/spacing but it seems that after landing ex ryo on some characters hk pinwheel misses entirely. If that is a character specific problem I'd like to see it fixed. Nothing more demoralizing then seemingly sealing a round with an ex ryo to pinwheel only to have the pinwheel whiff and eating a huge combo.

    Other than the things from the video and ex ryo>hk pinwheel I think Juri's fine as is. If capcom balancers are feeling generous come patch time I'd love to see f.mk overhead become chain cancelable while in VT.
  • brainpipebrainpipe SCIENCE! Joined: Posts: 1,165
    I think ryo's should at least have a hitbox before hitting the ground. maybe not high into the arc like Nash' moonsault, but as the leg reaches standing levels it could be active. It makes such little sense to me visually that I find it irritating.
    UMVC3:
    Magneto/MODOK/Doom

    SF4:
    Dudley
  • CipherCipher Catchphraser Joined: Posts: 1,896
    brainpipe wrote: »
    I think ryo's should at least have a hitbox before hitting the ground. maybe not high into the arc like Nash' moonsault, but as the leg reaches standing levels it could be active. It makes such little sense to me visually that I find it irritating.

    Or just make her throwinvincible as soon she leaves the ground?

    Lots of the things in the video existed in previous SF games too. Or do I have to remind people that lots of Combos just whiffed on a standing Juri,not to mentoi how f*cked up Elena was.
    Most stuff like the overhead not going over all lows is a hitbox thing.
    I suggest using the hitbox viewer and check it yourself,you will see that Ryus sweep Hitbox is bigger than Uriens for example.
    But you have to be on PC for this.

    So here are my ideas:
    st.mk -2 on block
    st.hk more advantage after CC
    st.mp +5 on hit, st.mp -> cr.mp xx Ryo would be a possible BnB
    V-Skill charges faster.

    Now what I had in mind.
    V-Trigger: Chained normals no longer drain the Meter,Specials still do.
    This would increase the duration.
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  • GaruGaru Wanna play with me? Joined: Posts: 514
    Its sad but she need a lot of buffs and I dont think a major balance patch will make it for her but anyway.

    Here my ideas:

    st.mp +5 on hit and extend the hitbox just a bit to macth her elbow
    st.mk -2 on block and move a bit forward just like in SF4
    st.hk this button is really bad, it needs faster start up (10-12), sligthly more damage (90), to move a bit further and better advantage on CC.
    cr.hp needs to be a true anti air
    f.mk she should be able to combo of her overhead in V-trigger

    Ryodansatsu EX is dumb, it has lower damage (80), lower stun (150), slower start up (25), its only -2 on block and can be easily be beated by a many things. Imo this move should be like damage (120), stun (200), start up (20), on block (-2) and overhead.

    Fuharenkuaku (store) needs more damage (50) and larger hitbox
    Fuharenkyaku (lk) needs more stun (100) since she cant spam it and travel more distance.

    As for mk and hk fuhas Im not sure but it sucks to have to burn all your resourses to at best be -2.

    V-Skills sucks, it needs 1 hit of armor and charge faster.

    V-reversal sucks if you lucky it will hit and still you get nothing.

    V-Trigger sucks, it needs to be a come back factor again, and be 2 bars, its mix up potential is practically unexisted unless your opponent is cornered and still very limited. Im not sure but, is it the only v-trigger that reduce your damage output??

    Everything else I think is fine or at least not that bad.
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  • StarFishPrimeStarFishPrime Joined: Posts: 119
    I would like to see better frame advantage on normals/throws, 2 bar v-trigger, and better boxes on stores
  • LockMLockM Joined: Posts: 2,664
    edited November 2016
    Although i wouldn't disagree with her having a medium, medium link, i think there are a few better suggestions which will improve her overall damage output and allow you to to be more creative.
    This is all wishfull thinking ofcourse because Capcom is notorious for not giving people what they want.
    • LK fireball +5 on hit, still -2 on block
    Instead of st.mp, cr.mp i MUCH prefer this as it will completely cover her low damage output at the cost of having to spend a lk release. The obvious combo is st.mp xx qcf+lk(release), cr.mp xx qcb+lk, however on crouchers the st.mp also connects which you can then cancel into a qcf+k(store).

    So the lk fireball release serves 2 purposes, use it as a way to approach, use it to extend combos. On crouchers you can store another one immediately for a bit less damage unless you are willing to do EX qcf+k.

    If Capcom wants to be dicks they can make it +4 so only the st.lk link will work and it will only link after (ch st.lp) st.mp, anything else won't work. This will not address the low damage output and it will not be nearly as much fun...

    • st.mp needs to have slightly less pushback on hit and block.
    This way you are in range to link cr.lp after a st.mp on standing characters, there are a few benefits to this if the pushback is sligtly decreased after a st.mp:
    - Regular hit(do cr.lp xx special), Counterhit(cr.mp xx special), Blocked st.mp(you can frametrap with cr.lp, which can combo in cr.mp on counterhit)
    - Another benefit is you can hold downback and easily react to the counterhit and do cr.mp, if it's a regular hit, you can do cr.lp(much easier than switching between st.lk and cr.mp)

    • VT 2 bars OR 3 bars without chain draining
    This is pretty obvious, in it's current state the VT drains when doing any chain or special, this is not worth a 3 bar VT. Her VT isn't gone THAT fast though so even if it's a 2 bar VT it is unlikely Juri will be able to get a 2nd VT without CC or V-Skill usage, both aren't realistic. I would prefer a 3 bar VT that doesn't drain like Chun(which is a 2 bar VT...) if Juri her V-Skill remains the same.

    • Start only the 1st round with full stores and charged V-Skill. Stored specials and charged v-skill during a round will carry over to the next round
    Currently she is fighting for space in the beginning or wasting precious time pressure opportunities in ending blockstrings into stored specials. let alone finding the time to get a charged v-skill off. By starting a round with full stored specials and a charged v-skill will allow her much need breathing room and be more creative in her approach. Only starting the first round with full stored specials and a charged v-skill will still require the player to actively think about how to end a round so they can make the most of it in the upcoming rounds. Resource management will then imho play an even greater roll than it currently does but also gives more potential advantages. This will further diversify the way players can play Juri.

    • cr.hp improved hitbox
    Cr.hp is clearly meant as an anti-air however its hitbox is laughable. It trades on almost any occasion, i understand Capcom their reluctance to make it good because of its CC property but at this point it's not even worth trying as eating a jump because the cr.hp failed to do its job is too big of a risk. Improve the hitbox for anti airing and also increase it slightly horizontally because it literally has less reach than either her crouching or standing light punch. Having her cr.hp improved alone will up her damage potential.

    • Charge V-Skill faster
    At this point there isn't any real incentive to charge her v-skill, it's difficult to find moments to charge, as a mixup tool it is VERY gimmicky, using it on reaction to a projectile is very difficult and only works against slower projectiles and from far away otherwise it simply will get stuffe. You can't feint early etc. It's straight up garbadge.

    • st.mp>b.hp hit crouching characters*
    This is tough as Juri can either cancel into a store or a lk release to make it safe and on hit it gives good damage and knockdown pressure. If it hits crouchers you can literally just spam this tool by doing st.lp, st.mp>b.hp without any consequence. Cammy her TC is punishable on block as is Ken his b.mp>hp TC and he needs to spend meter to make it safe. In combination with her being able to link after a qcf+lk(release) you will be able to do some fancy combos on crouhcers and in the corner.
    *As a way to compromise it hitting crouchers i suggest Juri to be unable to cancel into anything on block however make the TC itself hitconfirmable like Ken his b.mp>hp. People that put in the time will be able to hitconfirm it and other people that are having trouble doing this can still do st.lp, st.mp>b.hp if they see the counterhit from a light attack.

    • Fuharenkyaku(store) 2 more active frames
    It currently only has 3 active frames, which is very little especially when trying to cancel out other projectiles. By giving more active frames there is a bit more leniency in this aspect and she'll fullfill her archetype of actually being able to function as somewhat of an anti zoner. Giving 2 more active frames allows her to be +2 on block when it's done as a meaty and the last active frames is blocked and seeing how qcf+k(store) has very little pushback this will allow her to continue pressure somewhat. Otherwise she would do a st.lp, st.mp xx store and the pressure ends there. Giving it 2 more active frames will also cover both normal and back recovery on paper however it doesn't have the reach for back recovery unless done in the corner.
    It will be minus on block for normal recovery and plus against backrecovery as a meaty and it only works in the corner however in a way it can then potenially be used like how it was in USFIV.

    There is no reason to get more frameadvantage after throws if the above suggestions are implemented, she'll have other ways to apply meaties because she gets stored specials more easily or decide to back off as she has more ways to approach and play the neutral with the additional advantage of being able to start a round with stored specials and a charged v-skill.

    st.mk being -2 has no use either, the pushback is so large that it is virtually unpunishable anyway. If used upclose you would cancel it into a store anyway which makes it -2.

    st.hk CC is fine, you get a bunch ways to convert into good damage. At almost any distance you get a dash into a standin light. Depending on the spacing you need to cancel the light into a dp+lk or if closer you can cancel into )dp+mk/hk/ex. You can even cancel into a store and follow it with an EX qcf+k. If you're closer you get a (walk up) st.hk.

    GGXrdR2: Jam, Baiken
    T7:  Jin
    SFV: Juri
    USFIV: Yun, Cody, Guy





  • GaruGaru Wanna play with me? Joined: Posts: 514
    LockM wrote: »
    Although i wouldn't disagree with her having a medium, medium link, i think there are a few better suggestions which will improve her overall damage output and allow you to to be more creative.
    This is all wishfull thinking ofcourse because Capcom is notorious for not giving people what they want.
    • LK fireball +5 on hit, still -2 on block
    Instead of st.mp, cr.mp i MUCH prefer this as it will completely cover her low damage output at the cost of having to spend a lk release. The obvious combo is st.mp xx qcf+lk(release), cr.mp xx qcb+lk, however on crouchers the st.mp also connects which you can then cancel into a qcf+k(store).

    So the lk fireball release serves 2 purposes, use it as a way to approach, use it to extend combos. On crouchers you can store another one immediately for a bit less damage unless you are willing to do EX qcf+k.

    If Capcom wants to be dicks they can make it +4 so only the st.lk link will work and it will only link after (ch st.lp) st.mp, anything else won't work. This will not address the low damage output and it will not be nearly as much fun...

    • st.mp needs to have slightly less pushback on hit and block.
    This way you are in range to link cr.lp after a st.mp on standing characters, there are a few benefits to this if the pushback is sligtly decreased after a st.mp:
    - Regular hit(do cr.lp xx special), Counterhit(cr.mp xx special), Blocked st.mp(you can frametrap with cr.lp, which can combo in cr.mp on counterhit)
    - Another benefit is you can hold downback and easily react to the counterhit and do cr.mp, if it's a regular hit, you can do cr.lp(much easier than switching between st.lk and cr.mp)

    • VT 2 bars OR 3 bars without chain draining
    This is pretty obvious, in it's current state the VT drains when doing any chain or special, this is not worth a 3 bar VT. Her VT isn't gone THAT fast though so even if it's a 2 bar VT it is unlikely Juri will be able to get a 2nd VT without CC or V-Skill usage, both aren't realistic. I would prefer a 3 bar VT that doesn't drain like Chun(which is a 2 bar VT...) if Juri her V-Skill remains the same.

    • Start only the 1st round with full stores and charged V-Skill. Stored specials and charged v-skill during a round will carry over to the next round
    Currently she is fighting for space in the beginning or wasting precious time pressure opportunities in ending blockstrings into stored specials. let alone finding the time to get a charged v-skill off. By starting a round with full stored specials and a charged v-skill will allow her much need breathing room and be more creative in her approach. Only starting the first round with full stored specials and a charged v-skill will still require the player to actively think about how to end a round so they can make the most of it in the upcoming rounds. Resource management will then imho play an even greater roll than it currently does but also gives more potential advantages. This will further diversify the way players can play Juri.

    • cr.hp improved hitbox
    Cr.hp is clearly meant as an anti-air however its hitbox is laughable. It trades on almost any occasion, i understand Capcom their reluctance to make it good because of its CC property but at this point it's not even worth trying as eating a jump because the cr.hp failed to do its job is too big of a risk. Improve the hitbox for anti airing and also increase it slightly horizontally because it literally has less reach than either her crouching or standing light punch. Having her cr.hp improved alone will up her damage potential.

    • Charge V-Skill faster
    At this point there isn't any real incentive to charge her v-skill, it's difficult to find moments to charge, as a mixup tool it is VERY gimmicky, using it on reaction to a projectile is very difficult and only works against slower projectiles and from far away otherwise it simply will get stuffe. You can't feint early etc. It's straight up garbadge.

    • st.mp>b.hp hit crouching characters*
    This is tough as Juri can either cancel into a store or a lk release to make it safe and on hit it gives good damage and knockdown pressure. If it hits crouchers you can literally just spam this tool by doing st.lp, st.mp>b.hp without any consequence. Cammy her TC is punishable on block as is Ken his b.mp>hp TC and he needs to spend meter to make it safe. In combination with her being able to link after a qcf+lk(release) you will be able to do some fancy combos on crouhcers and in the corner.
    *As a way to compromise it hitting crouchers i suggest Juri to be unable to cancel into anything on block however make the TC itself hitconfirmable like Ken his b.mp>hp. People that put in the time will be able to hitconfirm it and other people that are having trouble doing this can still do st.lp, st.mp>b.hp if they see the counterhit from a light attack.

    • Fuharenkyaku(store) 2 more active frames
    It currently only has 3 active frames, which is very little especially when trying to cancel out other projectiles. By giving more active frames there is a bit more leniency in this aspect and she'll fullfill her archetype of actually being able to function as somewhat of an anti zoner. Giving 2 more active frames allows her to be +2 on block when it's done as a meaty and the last active frames is blocked and seeing how qcf+k(store) has very little pushback this will allow her to continue pressure somewhat. Otherwise she would do a st.lp, st.mp xx store and the pressure ends there. Giving it 2 more active frames will also cover both normal and back recovery on paper however it doesn't have the reach for back recovery unless done in the corner.
    It will be minus on block for normal recovery and plus against backrecovery as a meaty and it only works in the corner however in a way it can then potenially be used like how it was in USFIV.

    There is no reason to get more frameadvantage after throws if the above suggestions are implemented, she'll have other ways to apply meaties because she gets stored specials more easily or decide to back off as she has more ways to approach and play the neutral with the additional advantage of being able to start a round with stored specials and a charged v-skill.

    st.mk being -2 has no use either, the pushback is so large that it is virtually unpunishable anyway. If used upclose you would cancel it into a store anyway which makes it -2.

    st.hk CC is fine, you get a bunch ways to convert into good damage. At almost any distance you get a dash into a standin light. Depending on the spacing you need to cancel the light into a dp+lk or if closer you can cancel into )dp+mk/hk/ex. You can even cancel into a store and follow it with an EX qcf+k. If you're closer you get a (walk up) st.hk.

    While I agree with most of your ideas I this her st.hk CC really needs more advantage to at least be able to get a dash into medium, other characters can get a CC into a fierce or roundhouse, why Juri cant even get a medium?

    And about her target combo hitting croushing characters being too strong, I think adreesed by increasing the push back on her fuha store will do it so she will ends her pressure, and about using a fuha release to make it safe I think is fine since she will be burning resourses just like Ken.

    And I really think her V-skill needs more than charging faster, imo 1 hit of armor with gray life will do it , that way she could gain v-gauge of her v-skill and not just from damage.
    SFV: Karin and Juri
    USF4: Juri, E.Ryu and Cammy
    KoFXIV: Kyo, Angel and Kula
  • RaphsodyRaphsody Joined: Posts: 10
    @LockM
    I agree with most of what you said, especially the VT part (why the hell does Chun have a 2 bar VT with the duration of a 3 bar one??). However, I'm not sure about a couple of things (I know most of it is wishful thinking, no worries).
    For one, I don't think she needs to start the first round with all resources. What she does need is a better way to acquire them. You covered them well though: Better pressure options to charge up (seriously, you can't really keep pressure going with most of her normals being - on block and pretty much only one reliable frame trap). More pushback on store, less pushback on some normals, fast vskill charge/cancel (which btw would probably allow for combo opportunities in case of CC. For example, CC cr hp xx vskill xx dash, normal and follow up), etc.

    I think I mostly disagree with TC hitting crouching opponents, for the simple reason that it already works fine at punishing moves that leave the opponent in a standing state, like Necalli's charge dash.
  • LockMLockM Joined: Posts: 2,664
    Raphsody wrote: »
    @LockM
    I agree with most of what you said, especially the VT part (why the hell does Chun have a 2 bar VT with the duration of a 3 bar one??). However, I'm not sure about a couple of things (I know most of it is wishful thinking, no worries).
    For one, I don't think she needs to start the first round with all resources. What she does need is a better way to acquire them. You covered them well though: Better pressure options to charge up (seriously, you can't really keep pressure going with most of her normals being - on block and pretty much only one reliable frame trap). More pushback on store, less pushback on some normals, fast vskill charge/cancel (which btw would probably allow for combo opportunities in case of CC. For example, CC cr hp xx vskill xx dash, normal and follow up), etc.

    I think I mostly disagree with TC hitting crouching opponents, for the simple reason that it already works fine at punishing moves that leave the opponent in a standing state, like Necalli's charge dash.

    I was kinda iffy on it because if you happen to get a counterhit light on an opponent into st.mp, you then go into the TC regardless where as now you need to hitconfirm the counterhit on standing characters. Other situations are punishes which won't happen often or a succesfull jumpin. We'll see.

    Anyway i haven't addressed any of the normals she has but frankly, most of them are abysmal.
    GGXrdR2: Jam, Baiken
    T7:  Jin
    SFV: Juri
    USFIV: Yun, Cody, Guy





  • DanoninoDanonino Winning for once. Joined: Posts: 724
    I'm starting to think it won't be buffs that help juri out it will be the nerfs to others.

    Ryu players who think j.lk and jab will survive are delusional imho. Same with necallis jab and some of chuns stuff etc. It's pretty obvious what stuff isn't working as intended to me.
    Never attempt the same move after you have been once thwarted!
  • StockyJamStockyJam My nigga Networkingyuppy Joined: Posts: 5,839
    Devil got banned
  • QuixoticNeutralQuixoticNeutral Joined: Posts: 1,316
    How'd that happen?
  • StockyJamStockyJam My nigga Networkingyuppy Joined: Posts: 5,839
    How'd that happen?

    presidential thread bet.
    he bet Hilary would win.
  • LockMLockM Joined: Posts: 2,664
    edited November 2016
    Another idea regarding her v-skill:
    Changes
    • Ability to cancel lk fireball release into her v-skill
    • Ability to feint v-skill earlier

    Non-changes
    • Charge time for full V-Skill stays the same

    This way she can get the charged v-skill more safely, it would allow her more unique pressure which will be restricted to only when she has a lk fireball available.
    You have to decide between getting a charged v-skill or giving up the charged v-skill in favour of offense.

    Unfortunately Capcom won't allow changes which are reasonable AND fun.
    GGXrdR2: Jam, Baiken
    T7:  Jin
    SFV: Juri
    USFIV: Yun, Cody, Guy





  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 57,921 mod
    edited November 2016
    I bet wrong, but America will make DeeJuri great again.

    As I expect I don't imagine a lot of the stuff listed here Capcom will budge on. They usually have their own agenda and it may just be out of coincidence they fix something you were concerned about. Hsien Chang placing high at a big tournament (against big bad top tiers and outplacing day one launch mainers) only a couple months into her launch doesn't bode well for her getting buffed greatly. Will probably just further instill the idea that they did a decent job.



    Hopefully Lord Combofriend can push for some real power buffs for her, but knowing Capcom shes not going to get anything like V Skill on armor or plus one on block fireballs.

    Ain't nothin, Capcom's ruthless still producin.  Cut em a check or find yoself toothless.  Keep it shill with no confusin.  Niggas say I'm shill...they ain't hard I can prove it YEEEAH


  • TyphlosionTyphlosion Russian Hacker Joined: Posts: 1,080
    I bet wrong, but America will make DeeJuri great again.

    As I expect I don't imagine a lot of the stuff listed here Capcom will budge on. They usually have their own agenda and it may just be out of coincidence they fix something you were concerned about. Hsien Chang placing high at a big tournament (against big bad top tiers and outplacing day one launch mainers) only a couple months into her launch doesn't bode well for her getting buffed greatly. Will probably just further instill the idea that they did a decent job.



    Hopefully Lord Combofriend can push for some real power buffs for her, but knowing Capcom shes not going to get anything like V Skill on armor or plus one on block fireballs.

    LOL I knew I was back as soon as I saw you could get on....I bet on America and America lost.
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