The death of fighting games… A personal journey that hopefully can help MvC:I ???

ChingachgookChingachgook Joined: Posts: 29
edited December 2016 in Marvel vs Capcom: Infinite
Do we want to understand why fighting games lost their top-tier popularity over the years? As a self-avowed fighting game advocate, addict and promoter I dedicated years of my life promoting fighting games. From Street Fighter in the 80’s arcade, running tournaments in the arcades in the early 90’s I continued to build a scene for fighting games for over 20+ years. Personally building from the ground-up or involved in over 100+ tournaments produced over the course of those multiple decades.

Today I played MvC3 on PS4 and would rather played a FPS…. How low have I sunk? Did I leave fighting games or did fighting games leave me? I hope MvC:I can change things...

I know developers, players, and even I have a hard time understanding how fighting games left me and why many people prefer other games to fighters. And I worry for my first-true-love of gaming, fighting games, that they continue down a path unsure how to solve the two issues I keep addressing, player-accessibility and player-stickiness.

As I played MvC3 I wondered to myself, why? Why would I rather play a FPS right now? Because I want to help fix it for our beloved genre fighting games. Can we talk respectfully to one another to explore this taboo issue? Because if we can figure it out for myself perhaps we can help fix it for fighting games. I’m no different than your average joe, and the reason I wanted to play another game was really simple.

This was the reason why I turned off MvC3 and went to a FPS:

***I was frustrated that I could not access the moves I wanted.***

Ya see on a FPS I want to shoot, it happens. I want to perform a super-move it happens. I want to run it happens.

Don’t get me wrong, I’ve played on a joystick for decades for fighters. I also played on a PAD for the past couple of years to get used to it.

MODERN-DAY players who purchase a console 99.999% of them are not sold with an arcade stick. Sorry to break the news to us, 99.999% of the population plays on a PAD. And fighting games that sell 1 million copies 80% of those copies over 800K are the everyday players like me. We are never going to compete at high level tournaments. However we want to have fun at the game.

No fun when you can’t access the move you want.

Fighting games don’t exist in a vacuum, they have to compete against other game offerings, such as FPS, strategy games etc. And the offering is that other games allow the 80% of everyday-players the ability to access the move they want to perform.

Most responses I get when I talk to hardcore players is, well fighting games will never be able to lower the bar of player-accessibility. Sorry you have to learn the complex inputs to play that is the BASICS of fighting game play. Part of the game is the skill to perform the move (Yes for the hardcore but not for us everyday-video-game-players the 80% that buy the game) Or hardcore players try to make the argument something its not, that is im not trying to change the game for the hardcore, I’m trying to include the modern players of todays world. Trying to expand the appeal of our game to new people, but the hardcore just won’t have it.

Ok. You win hardcore. Fighting games will continue their high player-accessibility bar, and I’ll just move on to games that welcome me and the modern players of today world. We as a community of FGC are going to continue to loose players to games that are more accessible.

Sad.

It’s especially sad because I’m SURE developers want to sell more copies, in a perfect world developers would have a perfect offering. That perfect offering would be a product for the hardcore tournament players and the everyday-players such as me.

And this perfect offering can be achieved! There is no single silver bullet. However a robust feature-offering that enables everyday players access to the moves they want to perform easily can be included at no expense to the hardcore tournament players.

Can we not be obtuse about the ability to have two competent offering in the same game? Many games today have a PvP offering and a campaign offering, such as The Last of Us, Call of Duty, Uncharted, Metal Gear Solid… But fighting games now just cater to the PvP aspect and no PvE offering.

It’s not all negative, fighting game companies realize that a healthy PvP environment has to be continually nourished, new additions, updates, new characters. A step in the right direction to be sure! However ignoring the PvE aspect, no campaigns (NAMCO used provide campaigns), and these PvE aspect also need to continually nourished… However this is not even been conceptualized for fighters in the modern world. It’s like talking about a aliens, not even a real concept to people and if you talk about it your crazy!

Sad.

Am I the only one that feels that some important aspects of fighting games are stuck in the past? That some of these aspects are not even addressed? Such as:

Simple-mode was a step in the right direction for MvC3, but it did not go far enough. Stylish mode for Guilty Gear was the step in the right direction but it did not go far enough. (Yes macros for special moves should be allowed for everyday-video-game players/casuals) NAMCO used to offer side scrolling “campaigns” for their fighting games… no longer. Competing for high-scores used to have a level of fun and respect. Survival mode was a fun challenge and could be improved. (But computer A.I. is never addressed to be built upon and improved) And my biggest gripe of all fighters never developed a team aspect that could laser-focus a solution for “player-stickiness” that again is alien to the community and the genre. Fighters used to be progressive in new features, but now give the hardcore exactly what they want, scared to try something so new and radical that it offends the hardcore and thus hurts their product.

I write this as a hopeful fan, enthusiast, a person who loves fighting games and I know if positioned better fighters can have a revival!

I have answers to these problems, so do other people in development, and other people in the community. I would hope this just gets the discussion going.

This is not an attack on the hardcore, I consider myself hardcore for over 20+ years… but the things that drew me to fighters, specifically progressive additions to game-play and progressive features, are no longer the normal, they are the dinosaurs. Today it’s only about the PvP aspect, an aspect I will continue to enjoy and play. But I do so with my eyes wide open to how other products on the market are providing solutions and features that broaden the appeal and deepen the game beyond just the deep game-play mechanics.

Please don’t hate, I don’t hate, or go ahead and hate, that’s fine too. Because sometimes things don’t change unless there is a fight. Hopefully this at least will have discussion and help change things somewhere out in the ethos… that ethos being MvC: Infinite. As they are obviously trying to solve the player-accessibility issue, I say to that bravo.




Post edited by Chingachgook on
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Comments

  • ChingachgookChingachgook Joined: Posts: 29
    you could just play another fighting game

    Thank you. Your proved my point EXACTLY. Hardcore mindset is basically "If you don't like it than leave"...

    And many people like us are doing EXACTLY that, we are leaving. But it doesn't have to be that way, the development of the game can be inclusive to both hardcore players and casual players, and nothing is wrong with that, actually it would make a better product and better environment.

    Thank you for proving my point... I'm not sure FGC can get past the small minded thinking IMHO.

    Thanks for the response.

  • NeverYouMindNeverYouMind Joined: Posts: 307 ✭✭✭
    Different individuals want different things from a fighting game.
    Some want a brand name, some want competition, some want accessibility, some want visual flare, and others want a gameplay design or theme that gels with them.
    I want a straight forward game with martial arts and good music that is easy on the eyes.
    MKX, Shaolin vs Wutang, and KoF XIV lean in that direction. Figure out what you want.
  • ChingachgookChingachgook Joined: Posts: 29
    Different individuals want different things from a fighting game.
    Some want a brand name, some want competition, some want accessibility, some want visual flare, and others want a gameplay design or theme that gels with them.

    What I hope to touch upon is the universal want that our favorite genre and favorite game grows in popularity.

    This can be done by IMHO by addressing two specific areas fighting games are largely behind other genres, that is "player-accessibility" and "player-stickiness"
  • CyanPrimeCyanPrime Joined: Posts: 19
    I happen to like inputting complex commands for special moves. I love me a good Gamma Ray.

    What I don't like is console companies making bad dpad designs (most the time too big) that make it so I mess up the inputs, or that to get a good stick I apparently need to toss $100 + at a store.

    That's a problem with hardware makers though, not software makers. Complex commands in fighters are where it's at.

  • ChingachgookChingachgook Joined: Posts: 29
    CyanPrime wrote: »
    I happen to like inputting complex commands for special moves. I love me a good Gamma Ray.

    Lol. I totally agree with you, I love complex inputs especially in an arcade stick... I grew up in the arcade it feels so good.

    However I'm aware that we are the 20% minority, the niche hardcore. And no one, me, you, developers would not look to change that for us.

    But we need to have a honest open discussion about the casual 80% that buys the product, how can the game support both?

    And it can support both, that's what this post hopes to help build awareness around.
  • ChingachgookChingachgook Joined: Posts: 29
    Have you ever thought about the possibility that this shit isn't "too complicated" and that you are just too damn lazy

    It is'nt about me. I'm going to be playing reguardless.

    It's about leveraging a "player-accessibility" position to grab players early on, and slowly develop them into our communities.

    Just giving up the position of easy-access to the game, to other games puts us at the loosing end of the stick.

    I want to fight to keep those players, otherwise I feel the position you suggest is specious.
  • ChingachgookChingachgook Joined: Posts: 29
    Way too much overthinking in this post. When I sucked at doing moves as an 8 yr old, I stayed on the Arcade cabinet practicing motions until I had them down. It takes but a few mins to go to Training Mode and learn stuff, but in the instant gratification era, everyone wants to be pulling off complex combos with the press of a button. If games continue to "make the system more accessible", it'll reach a point where games stop being fun.

    Honestly, some fighting games just aren't for certain people. That's not a knock. It's just being real.

    Great post I really like this one. Very honest, brings in an important concept to address. That being the idea that:

    'you have to take time to learn a fighting game complex inputs. That's just part of the game.'

    We need to challenge this idea. If this idea is correct, it will stand after we throw rocks at it.

    Why should it take it take time to learn the complex inputs for the Casual player? Many games already have simplified inputs (choose you game) but the depth is found in the timing, proper judgement calls, and the strategy. Hours and hours can be plunged into developing and sharpening timing, judgement, and strategy these other aspects of the game can be the beginning focus of casual players.

    After time if they want to graduate to complex inputs to partake in tournament play then they can take that step. We should feed them milk before we feed them the meat.

    That's just the on the surface a solution. We could explore how this would only be a "Simple-mode" offering. Or perhaps moves that have a macro do half damage, or ruin the damage-multiplier. However those are rabbit holes.

    Again the point being the majority of casual players are being ignored for the hardcore.

    It's not a zero sum development only for one or the other.

    We can support both.
  • Doctrine DarkDoctrine Dark Putting my Key in the Ignition Joined: Posts: 4,644 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2016
    You just have to try to find the fun in learning new things. At one point, I hated going into Training Mode to learn how to punish or react to stuff in SF4. Know what's funny, though? I eventually began to find more fun in the game because it opened up my eagerness to learn more things. I don't expect that mindset to resonate with most casual players, but I also know not every casual player is the same and can see where I'm coming from.

    Some slowly become hardcore with enough exposure. We weren't born as hardcore or casual players; it's an adapted trait. You can be a casual and still have a deep understanding of the battle system.

    Capcom is putting a strong emphasis on the fun factor and single-player (Story, Arcade, etc) content this time around. I'm quite sure there'll be a well-detailed tutorial along with a return to a "Simple Mode" sorta system this time around. A lot of people look down on casuals, but I personally welcome them to the scene. Helping them get more acquainted with fighting games in general is something I've done and enjoy. I want the scene to grow. I just don't want this to always have to be at the expense of the battle system needing to constantly be dumbed down in hopes of roping them in. Some things are just worth taking on regardless of the potential difficulty in it.
    Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. It's just that yours is stupid.
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  • CyanPrimeCyanPrime Joined: Posts: 19
    [Or perhaps moves that have a macro do half damage
    To be honest, this part isn't such a bad idea. I've been toying with the idea of a "panic button" special in my head for the fighting game engine I'm making. I think that there needs to be a quick bar-using move to go to if you just can't pull anything else off. Maybe taking the place of a Burst, and you can only use it once a round, or match. I'd like to see that in a game, I know BlazBlue Calamity Trigger had it so you could tilt the right stick to do a super. I'd prefer a "panic super" to a "Stylish Mode" anyway.


    But, with all that said, most of what you're saying is "Let's take the fun out of fighting games for the people who don't like fighting games."
  • ChingachgookChingachgook Joined: Posts: 29
    edited December 2016
    Fighting games can't compete with FPS or MOBA, is a lost battle. And the reason isn't the complexity of the controls, but the fact they are team games. Your teammates can carry you and, if they don't, you can always blame them for your losses. Counter Strike, for example, is a team based FPS that's actually very hard to learn. You must not only have a very good aim, but also must know the best statrategies because the game punishes your mistakes really hard. Yet, it's one of the most played games, competing with free to play games in terms of popularity, like Dota or LoL.

    So, no. No amount of simplified inputs will make more people be suddenly interested in fighting games. Take Rising Thunder as an example. One button specials, simple mechanics, free to play game... this sounds a perfect formula to bring a lot of new players, right? Wrong. Online became a wasteland after few weeks. Casuals still got frustrated by simple tatics like tick throws and zoning and left. There's no way you can simplify the game to the point anyone can compete with little investment without making the game utter shit.

    I agree that the companies should try to get new players, and the best method is adding more single player contents (arcade, story, survival, etc). Smash Bros and Mortal Kombat already do this, and I would like to see more games follow this path of robust single player experience. That's how you bring new people to the game without pissing your FG hardcores.

    I challenge the idea that Fighters can't compete with FPS or MOBA's. It not addressing the issue very well if we purely focus on the one aspect of --Complexity of the input controls-- because the issue of "player-accessibility" is more in-depth than a single-silver-bullet. As I said in the OP, no silver bullet for the issue of "player-accessibility" however a suite of solutions would do well if properly positioned.

    In that suite of solutions to solve the issue, it would include a multitude of solutions one being a improved "simple-mode" as I've been suggesting, it should also include other solutions as you suggest, story survival etc.

    But you touch upon something even more critical IMHO. That would be the team aspect of MOBA and FPS.

    I guess we, the FGC community, is just going to concede and give-up that other games have better "player-accesibiltiy" and MOBA's and FPS are the only genre's that can offer a team aspect?...

    Sad!

    Where is the fight in us? Where is the creativity in our developers?! Where is it that we the consumer and fans want more for one another and more from our wonderful developers?

    We should be asking for a TEAM-ASPECT to be added. It would be part of the suite of solutions to address player-accessibility but more importantly TEAM-ASPECTS affect what the industry calls "Player-Stickiness"

    I really wanted to stear away talking about how fighting games, an individual game of skill, can grow to include team-competitive aspects. Because it's hard enough to get players to recognize what player-accessibility is and why we need to address it more directly.

    Because TEAM-ASPECTS can be developed for FGC that honor both the individual-player and it honors a team competition. We are not the first game/sport in human history that needs a solution to provide team-solutions to an individual-game-of-skill.

    Games/sports that have solved this issue in the past are Olympic gymnast and international chess tournaments.

    For the FGC a "Monrad Swiss Style Tournament" would allow us to incorporate TEAM-PLAY while honoring individual skill.

    I'm going to back off fully addressing "Player-Stickiness" at the moment. Because it deserves an entire thread on its own.

    For the moment I'm just going to continue to focus on building awareness that we need to more to include more people into our community, AKA "Player-Accessibility"

    Post edited by Chingachgook on
  • ChingachgookChingachgook Joined: Posts: 29
    Pertho wrote: »
    The simple answer is: you don't really like fighting games and we don't really have a good way of making you like them.

    Sorry it has to be that way.

    This response falls into the category of:

    Your proved my point EXACTLY. Hardcore mindset is basically "If you don't like it than leave"...

    And many people like us are doing EXACTLY that, we are leaving. But it doesn't have to be that way, the development of the game can be inclusive to both hardcore players and casual players, and nothing is wrong with that, actually it would make a better product and better environment.

    Thank you for proving my point... I'm not sure FGC can get past the small minded thinking IMHO.

    Thanks for the response.


  • CyanPrimeCyanPrime Joined: Posts: 19
    If it's a team thing you're looking for you could try the Cerebrawl demo thingy. It's a 4 player 2v2 game: https://cerebrawl.itch.io/cerebrawl
    I'm curious to see how it'll work out. I love the team aspect of Gundam VS Gundam.

    Also, if you want a "fighting game" without complex inputs you could try Smash, Brawlhalla, or Code: Hardcore when it comes out. Smash and Brawlhalla might not be true fighting games, but they are fun and might be just what you're looking for. They also have a team aspect to them.
  • ChingachgookChingachgook Joined: Posts: 29
    You just have to try to find the fun in learning new things. At one point, I hated going into Training Mode to learn how to punish or react to stuff in SF4. Know what's funny, though? I eventually began to find more fun in the game because it opened up my eagerness to learn more things. I don't expect that mindset to resonate with most casual players, but I also know not every casual player is the same and can see where I'm coming from.

    Some slowly become hardcore with enough exposure. We weren't born as hardcore or casual players; it's an adapted trait. You can be a casual and still have a deep understanding of the battle system.

    Capcom is putting a strong emphasis on the fun factor and single-player (Story, Arcade, etc) content this time around. I'm quite sure there'll be a well-detailed tutorial along with a return to a "Simple Mode" sorta system this time around. A lot of people look down on casuals, but I personally welcome them to the scene. Helping them get more acquainted with fighting games in general is something I've done and enjoy. I want the scene to grow. I just don't want this to always have to be at the expense of the battle system needing to constantly be dumbed down in hopes of roping them in. Some things are just worth taking on regardless of the potential difficulty in it.

    Great response!

    I agree!

    And the great thing we can cater to a casual audience and not make the hardcore suffer because of it.

    As you mention simple-mode did not make the hardcore suffer. Simple-mode just needs to be improved and needs to go farther. Simple-mode should include macros to do special moves. (They could do 1/4 the damage, or hurt the damage-multiplier) what ever to make it palatable.

    Overall I think you and I are on different paths, but see the end destination of finding more ways to include people into our mist is a good thing and not a bad thing.
  • ZatalconZatalcon Most hated man on SRK Joined: Posts: 1,652 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Do we want to understand why fighting games lost their top-tier popularity over the years?



    Who the fuck cares?



    I didnt read after this quoted sentence btw...
  • <Insert Name Here><Insert Name Here> No wonder with people like me SRK Marvel is dead Joined: Posts: 7,888 ✭✭✭✭✭
    But it doesn't have to be that way, the development of the game can be inclusive to both hardcore players and casual players, and nothing is wrong with that, actually it would make a better product and better environment.
    It already is
    From Street Fighter in the 80’s arcade, running tournaments in the arcades in the early 90’s I continued to build a scene for fighting games for over 20+ years. Personally building from the ground-up or involved in over 100+ tournaments produced over the course of those multiple decades.
    Where exactly did you have your scene
    Xrd: Axl || UMvC3: Magneto/Dante/Frank West
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  • ChingachgookChingachgook Joined: Posts: 29
    CyanPrime wrote: »
    [Or perhaps moves that have a macro do half damage
    But, with all that said, most of what you're saying is "Let's take the fun out of fighting games for the people who don't like fighting games."

    LOL. Very pessimistic. However we have seen the results of not including strong solution to "player-accessibility" the results are poor.

    We need to re-tool and we can do it in a manor that protects the hardcore needs, yet feeds the new players milk, and nurturing them slowly into hardcore players.

    The fun you mention does not exist for people who can't do the complex inputs. They can't enjoy the game. Were really only addressing those people.

    Because the hardcore is protected already, we know they will keep the competitive tournament needs of the game in place.
  • ChingachgookChingachgook Joined: Posts: 29
    Pertho wrote: »
    And many people like us are doing EXACTLY that, we are leaving. But it doesn't have to be that way, the development of the game can be inclusive to both hardcore players and casual players, and nothing is wrong with that, actually it would make a better product and better environment.

    It isn't. If I go into boxing and don't like getting hit, I don't go to the boxers and say "hey, wouldn't it be great if we box but not hit each other. hitting each other takes away from the movement."

    You tried a new hobby and don't like parts of it. Instead of being honest with yourself and going "man, I liked fighting games, but found out it wasn't for me because of X,Y and Z," you'd rather go "hey guys, I would love to stay if only you guys could change your games in all these different ways."

    The worst part about that is that UMvC3 did just that and you're still complaining. XRD put in a crazy training mode and you can't be bothered. Woshige is butchering about things that are fundamental about SF just to get you to play and you couldn't give one single flying fuck.

    So here's the rub: there are things we want to be easier because we know they are tedious. We ragged more on SF4 for not doing what it said it would in being accessible than you can imagine. 1 frame links are nice to hit, but it is tedious to maintain that level of execution for the shittiest of BnBs. On top of that it was littered with option selects and all sorts of random crap that was bad. But you know what? That game without story mode and all sorts of features? That's the one you fuckers ate up.

    Take SF5 then. SF5 makes sure you guys, the beginners, will get gameplay that is simplified so you'll want to play with people more often. You know what you do? You complain about arcade mode and no long involved story mode. You do that becuase you don't really like playing people. You like the characters because you felt some emotional connection but you couldn't give two shits about actual gameplay. You wanna have a fighting game experience but hate that to get an honest one, it involves playing other humans and, guess what? LOSING.

    You know what's the worst part of it all? The real punchline in this joke: long after your done being casual and being catered to and you get all hype becuase you went to Evo once and pretend to be part of this scene, we are still going to play these games. We are gonna get handed half assed games that continually take away important parts of the gameplay to make you happy and we are gonna get fucked for it. That's just whats gonna keep happening because it already has.

    there are places where they made great compromises. Let me fucking tell you how much False Roman Cancels sucked ass. They were hard and a pain in the ass. That was a good move. Some people like it, some don't. But did that really make you pick up guilty gear? Nope, because you, at the end of the day, don't really like fighting games.

    Still this response falls into the same category of "if you don't like it leave"

    And the response is obtuse to the issue that no changes to the way hardcore players access the game is being suggested.

    It is merely asking for more inclusion and to improve simple-mode and improve the aspects of "player-accessibility" that would benefit the entire scene. Again no changes to the way the game plays at the tournament level is being asked.
  • ChingachgookChingachgook Joined: Posts: 29
    But it doesn't have to be that way, the development of the game can be inclusive to both hardcore players and casual players, and nothing is wrong with that, actually it would make a better product and better environment.
    It already is
    From Street Fighter in the 80’s arcade, running tournaments in the arcades in the early 90’s I continued to build a scene for fighting games for over 20+ years. Personally building from the ground-up or involved in over 100+ tournaments produced over the course of those multiple decades.
    Where exactly did you have your scene

    Lets be more exact.

    Yes the game is already inclusive to a mild degree to casual players.

    But there is always room for improvement.

    ABQ the vast majority. Have also helped events in Dallas, Austin and Colorado.
  • BlindknaggBlindknagg Drinking alone is as bad as shitting in company. Joined: Posts: 3,598 ✭✭✭✭✭
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  • shmurdasceneshmurdascene Joined: Posts: 126 ✭✭
    edited December 2016
    Pertho wrote: »
    Arcade mode

    Motherfucker, Arcade Mode was there so you'd have something to do until somebody showed up to play you.

    Arcade Mode is the OG story mode bullshit.

    Arcade Mode is all 75% of players ever played, especially before online was a thing. Most people didn't actually play in arcades when they were a thing here. That was always a niche. So unless you were waiting to play locally against your friend, most people were playing the computer.

    "story mode bullshit"

    Like story mode is a bad thing. Why are you so against content?
  • shmurdasceneshmurdascene Joined: Posts: 126 ✭✭
    NickRocks wrote: »

    no

    The people that dont care about evo or the fgc dont even post here; the true casual buys a fighting game, mashes out enough jump in roundhouse sweeps to beat story mode, unlocks all characters/colors, beats the trials, and gets all the trophies and is content. He puts the game down and doesnt touch it again for years except for when a equally as casual buddy comes over and goes Yo u got dat mvc3? They put the game in and have a grand ol time mashing thor vs frank west.

    The scrub is the one that takes time and watches streams, cares about evo and the fgc, and whines about balance/"unfairness"/"op tactics" on forums. He is the one that capcom and the fighting game devs are listening to because there are more of him than there are people who actually play the game. The scrub hopped online got hit with AHVB and goes "MvC2 is a bad game because AHVB is a bad game design mechanic *the scrubs favorite buzz phrase* and never touches mvc2 again.

    The scrub is a casual who wont admit to himself hes a casual. There are games coming out with tutorial modes, TRAINING MODE RECORD REPLAY SAVE STATES!!! There is the amazing amazing resource tool known as youtube tutorial videos (i learned how to play cable in mvc2 just by watching videos). Yet even with all this, the scrub still goes "fighting games arent accessible enough" without even knowing what that means.

    If you ever put time into any fighting game and its scene then this should be pretty obvious to you. There are always guys who say yea i wanna learn mvc and so you show them some shit and you can tell they will never touch this game again because they dont want to lose. Its a tough pill to swallow to know ur just gonna get rekt over and over for hundreds if not thousands of matches before you accumulate enough knowledge to be even decent. No matter what tutorial mode or simple mode or one button assists or one button hypers they put it will change that fact. Casuals and scrubs will be bad until they put in the work to not be bad.

    So I don't post here? I couldn't care less about the FGC.

    Most people playing the game only want to be good enough to beat Arcade Mode and mess around with their friends. I don't 100% agree with the OP that the games need to be simplified completely but I don't see making them easier as a bad thing. Maybe that's because I don't play to be competitive.

    Obviously there are people who want to be good but aren't willing to lose 100 matches to get there. I don't know how anyone could change that or if it would even be possible. As you said there are games that do a good job of teaching you how to play but there will always be people who don't want to put it the slightest bit of effort. That's a shame but that doesn't mean those tools are some how a waste, there are probably just as many people taking advantage of training mode save states as there are ignoring them.

    I'm not actually what most would call part of the "scene." As I said in my earlier post I don't play online, ever, at all. I never have and its never appealed to me. So I don't come across these players that you guys do which may be why I have a bit of a different stance on them.

    The problem would then be catering to "scrubs" instead of "casuals." Having enough modes and characters for the casual players to feel like the game is worth their money is probably a better approach than dumbing down the controls. I'm fine with standard fighting game controls I just want to see more games.
  • shmurdasceneshmurdascene Joined: Posts: 126 ✭✭
    edited December 2016
    Pertho wrote: »

    The primary content of a fighting game is the characters and how they interact against each other while being manipulated by opponents.

    This is the part you guys like the least. There's not much we can do about that.

    That is not true. Just because I don't play online doesn't mean I don't enjoy the gameplay the most.
    d3v wrote: »
    The problem is, these single player modes don't really benefit the scene. Not when the people playing them don't either A ) increase the online matchmaking pool, or B ) show up at tournaments and events.

    Yes, there are ways to make the competitive aspects, of fighting games, more accessible. But modes that keep people from actually playing it aren't the answer.

    Why should offline game modes benefit the FGC? The purpose of Arcade Mode, Story Mode, etc is for people like me who enjoy the games just as much as you do but don't have any desire to be a part of your scene.

    "modes that keep people from actually playing it"

    This is the attitude I don't get. So you mean to tell me when I was playing DOA5 last night I wasn't actually playing it cause I was in VS CPU and not online? The only thing that matters is tournaments and the online matchmaking pool?
  • NickRocksNickRocks or whatever Joined: Posts: 22,003 ✭✭✭✭✭
    i
    NickRocks wrote: »

    no

    The people that dont care about evo or the fgc dont even post here; the true casual buys a fighting game, mashes out enough jump in roundhouse sweeps to beat story mode, unlocks all characters/colors, beats the trials, and gets all the trophies and is content. He puts the game down and doesnt touch it again for years except for when a equally as casual buddy comes over and goes Yo u got dat mvc3? They put the game in and have a grand ol time mashing thor vs frank west.

    The scrub is the one that takes time and watches streams, cares about evo and the fgc, and whines about balance/"unfairness"/"op tactics" on forums. He is the one that capcom and the fighting game devs are listening to because there are more of him than there are people who actually play the game. The scrub hopped online got hit with AHVB and goes "MvC2 is a bad game because AHVB is a bad game design mechanic *the scrubs favorite buzz phrase* and never touches mvc2 again.

    The scrub is a casual who wont admit to himself hes a casual. There are games coming out with tutorial modes, TRAINING MODE RECORD REPLAY SAVE STATES!!! There is the amazing amazing resource tool known as youtube tutorial videos (i learned how to play cable in mvc2 just by watching videos). Yet even with all this, the scrub still goes "fighting games arent accessible enough" without even knowing what that means.

    If you ever put time into any fighting game and its scene then this should be pretty obvious to you. There are always guys who say yea i wanna learn mvc and so you show them some shit and you can tell they will never touch this game again because they dont want to lose. Its a tough pill to swallow to know ur just gonna get rekt over and over for hundreds if not thousands of matches before you accumulate enough knowledge to be even decent. No matter what tutorial mode or simple mode or one button assists or one button hypers they put it will change that fact. Casuals and scrubs will be bad until they put in the work to not be bad.

    So I don't post here? I couldn't care less about the FGC.

    Most people playing the game only want to be good enough to beat Arcade Mode and mess around with their friends. I don't 100% agree with the OP that the games need to be simplified completely but I don't see making them easier as a bad thing. Maybe that's because I don't play to be competitive.

    Obviously there are people who want to be good but aren't willing to lose 100 matches to get there. I don't know how anyone could change that or if it would even be possible. As you said there are games that do a good job of teaching you how to play but there will always be people who don't want to put it the slightest bit of effort. That's a shame but that doesn't mean those tools are some how a waste, there are probably just as many people taking advantage of training mode save states as there are ignoring them.

    I'm not actually what most would call part of the "scene." As I said in my earlier post I don't play online, ever, at all. I never have and its never appealed to me. So I don't come across these players that you guys do which may be why I have a bit of a different stance on them.

    The problem would then be catering to "scrubs" instead of "casuals." Having enough modes and characters for the casual players to feel like the game is worth their money is probably a better approach than dumbing down the controls. I'm fine with standard fighting game controls I just want to see more games.

    So would you admit youre in the wrong place then? I mean this is a pretty heavily fgc/evo focused website. You say you dont care about the fgc but youre here, which would say the opposite
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  • shmurdasceneshmurdascene Joined: Posts: 126 ✭✭
    NickRocks wrote: »
    i
    NickRocks wrote: »

    no

    The people that dont care about evo or the fgc dont even post here; the true casual buys a fighting game, mashes out enough jump in roundhouse sweeps to beat story mode, unlocks all characters/colors, beats the trials, and gets all the trophies and is content. He puts the game down and doesnt touch it again for years except for when a equally as casual buddy comes over and goes Yo u got dat mvc3? They put the game in and have a grand ol time mashing thor vs frank west.

    The scrub is the one that takes time and watches streams, cares about evo and the fgc, and whines about balance/"unfairness"/"op tactics" on forums. He is the one that capcom and the fighting game devs are listening to because there are more of him than there are people who actually play the game. The scrub hopped online got hit with AHVB and goes "MvC2 is a bad game because AHVB is a bad game design mechanic *the scrubs favorite buzz phrase* and never touches mvc2 again.

    The scrub is a casual who wont admit to himself hes a casual. There are games coming out with tutorial modes, TRAINING MODE RECORD REPLAY SAVE STATES!!! There is the amazing amazing resource tool known as youtube tutorial videos (i learned how to play cable in mvc2 just by watching videos). Yet even with all this, the scrub still goes "fighting games arent accessible enough" without even knowing what that means.

    If you ever put time into any fighting game and its scene then this should be pretty obvious to you. There are always guys who say yea i wanna learn mvc and so you show them some shit and you can tell they will never touch this game again because they dont want to lose. Its a tough pill to swallow to know ur just gonna get rekt over and over for hundreds if not thousands of matches before you accumulate enough knowledge to be even decent. No matter what tutorial mode or simple mode or one button assists or one button hypers they put it will change that fact. Casuals and scrubs will be bad until they put in the work to not be bad.

    So I don't post here? I couldn't care less about the FGC.

    Most people playing the game only want to be good enough to beat Arcade Mode and mess around with their friends. I don't 100% agree with the OP that the games need to be simplified completely but I don't see making them easier as a bad thing. Maybe that's because I don't play to be competitive.

    Obviously there are people who want to be good but aren't willing to lose 100 matches to get there. I don't know how anyone could change that or if it would even be possible. As you said there are games that do a good job of teaching you how to play but there will always be people who don't want to put it the slightest bit of effort. That's a shame but that doesn't mean those tools are some how a waste, there are probably just as many people taking advantage of training mode save states as there are ignoring them.

    I'm not actually what most would call part of the "scene." As I said in my earlier post I don't play online, ever, at all. I never have and its never appealed to me. So I don't come across these players that you guys do which may be why I have a bit of a different stance on them.

    The problem would then be catering to "scrubs" instead of "casuals." Having enough modes and characters for the casual players to feel like the game is worth their money is probably a better approach than dumbing down the controls. I'm fine with standard fighting game controls I just want to see more games.

    So would you admit youre in the wrong place then? I mean this is a pretty heavily fgc/evo focused website. You say you dont care about the fgc but youre here, which would say the opposite

    Maybe, maybe not. I don't care about FGC stuff but I'd like to talk about fighting games. I don't know where would be more appropriate than the most popular fighting game forum.
  • ChingachgookChingachgook Joined: Posts: 29
    edited December 2016
    NickRocks wrote: »
    Pertho wrote: »
    And many people like us are doing EXACTLY that, we are leaving. But it doesn't have to be that way, the development of the game can be inclusive to both hardcore players and casual players, and nothing is wrong with that, actually it would make a better product and better environment.

    It isn't. If I go into boxing and don't like getting hit, I don't go to the boxers and say "hey, wouldn't it be great if we box but not hit each other. hitting each other takes away from the movement."

    You tried a new hobby and don't like parts of it. Instead of being honest with yourself and going "man, I liked fighting games, but found out it wasn't for me because of X,Y and Z," you'd rather go "hey guys, I would love to stay if only you guys could change your games in all these different ways."

    The worst part about that is that UMvC3 did just that and you're still complaining. XRD put in a crazy training mode and you can't be bothered. Woshige is butchering about things that are fundamental about SF just to get you to play and you couldn't give one single flying fuck.

    So here's the rub: there are things we want to be easier because we know they are tedious. We ragged more on SF4 for not doing what it said it would in being accessible than you can imagine. 1 frame links are nice to hit, but it is tedious to maintain that level of execution for the shittiest of BnBs. On top of that it was littered with option selects and all sorts of random crap that was bad. But you know what? That game without story mode and all sorts of features? That's the one you fuckers ate up.

    Take SF5 then. SF5 makes sure you guys, the beginners, will get gameplay that is simplified so you'll want to play with people more often. You know what you do? You complain about arcade mode and no long involved story mode. You do that becuase you don't really like playing people. You like the characters because you felt some emotional connection but you couldn't give two shits about actual gameplay. You wanna have a fighting game experience but hate that to get an honest one, it involves playing other humans and, guess what? LOSING.

    You know what's the worst part of it all? The real punchline in this joke: long after your done being casual and being catered to and you get all hype becuase you went to Evo once and pretend to be part of this scene, we are still going to play these games. We are gonna get handed half assed games that continually take away important parts of the gameplay to make you happy and we are gonna get fucked for it. That's just whats gonna keep happening because it already has.

    there are places where they made great compromises. Let me fucking tell you how much False Roman Cancels sucked ass. They were hard and a pain in the ass. That was a good move. Some people like it, some don't. But did that really make you pick up guilty gear? Nope, because you, at the end of the day, don't really like fighting games.

    I welt, this is so beautiful

    OP stop being an obtuse noob and read what he wrote. He didnt say "if you dont like it leave". Far from it.

    Your right he did not directly say, if you don't like it leave. However that is basically the result because it pits hardcore versus casual players as a zero sum game. As I seemed obtuse I would ask the same lets not be obtuse and realize that if properly positioned casual can be serviced and it will not be at the expense of the hardcore players. It can be done to cater to both positively.

    I'll try to say it another way, the hardcore don't have to suffer because the developers try to reach more people.

    As he points out Marvel already did this, with Simple-Mode. The only ask is that simple-mode is improved.

    It was not sweat off the hardcore players back that simple-mode was included.

    It just did not go far enough to create a more player-accessibility so more people could be introduced to our wonderful genre. And slowly incorporated into it.

  • ChingachgookChingachgook Joined: Posts: 29
    toddler316 wrote: »
    That's a very long op to just say "I'm bad, I've always been bad, please make the games easier so I don't have to try harder"

    This when addressing what is a direct lift of "simple mode" from mvc2.

    Please turn off your computer and never return here.

    Seems I'll be coping and saying this allot:

    Thank you. Your proved my point EXACTLY. Hardcore mindset is basically "If you don't like it than leave"...

    And many people like us are doing EXACTLY that, we are leaving. But it doesn't have to be that way, the development of the game can be inclusive to both hardcore players and casual players, and nothing is wrong with that, actually it would make a better product and better environment.

    Thank you for proving my point... I'm not sure FGC can get past the small minded thinking IMHO.

    Thanks for the response.



  • ChingachgookChingachgook Joined: Posts: 29
    edited December 2016
    Pertho wrote: »
    Arcade mode

    Motherfucker, Arcade Mode was there so you'd have something to do until somebody showed up to play you.

    Arcade Mode is the OG story mode bullshit.

    Are just to accept OG ideas and OG acceptance that it's good enough? I liked my Iphone 3 but I sure like my Iphone 5 better.

    If we are willing to accept that arcade mode is good enough, and not adapt to the times and obvious industry changes than we can expect the same poor results of sales that fighting games are currently experiencing.

    I for one want to fight for the casual players, so we increase our chance to convert some of them into hardcore players.

    However old school attitudes of good enough are proving in lower and lower sales year after year it is in fact not good enough.

    We can slightly-help the casual audience and protect that hardcore players.
    We can slightly-help the casual audience and increase the amount of hardcore players we have and grow scenes.

    But two issues have to be fixed to do this, "player-accessibility" and "player-stickiness"

    And fixing these two issues don't have to be at the expense of the hardcore.


    Post edited by Chingachgook on
  • ChingachgookChingachgook Joined: Posts: 29
    NickRocks wrote: »
    i
    NickRocks wrote: »

    no

    The people that dont care about evo or the fgc dont even post here; the true casual buys a fighting game, mashes out enough jump in roundhouse sweeps to beat story mode, unlocks all characters/colors, beats the trials, and gets all the trophies and is content. He puts the game down and doesnt touch it again for years except for when a equally as casual buddy comes over and goes Yo u got dat mvc3? They put the game in and have a grand ol time mashing thor vs frank west.

    The scrub is the one that takes time and watches streams, cares about evo and the fgc, and whines about balance/"unfairness"/"op tactics" on forums. He is the one that capcom and the fighting game devs are listening to because there are more of him than there are people who actually play the game. The scrub hopped online got hit with AHVB and goes "MvC2 is a bad game because AHVB is a bad game design mechanic *the scrubs favorite buzz phrase* and never touches mvc2 again.

    The scrub is a casual who wont admit to himself hes a casual. There are games coming out with tutorial modes, TRAINING MODE RECORD REPLAY SAVE STATES!!! There is the amazing amazing resource tool known as youtube tutorial videos (i learned how to play cable in mvc2 just by watching videos). Yet even with all this, the scrub still goes "fighting games arent accessible enough" without even knowing what that means.

    If you ever put time into any fighting game and its scene then this should be pretty obvious to you. There are always guys who say yea i wanna learn mvc and so you show them some shit and you can tell they will never touch this game again because they dont want to lose. Its a tough pill to swallow to know ur just gonna get rekt over and over for hundreds if not thousands of matches before you accumulate enough knowledge to be even decent. No matter what tutorial mode or simple mode or one button assists or one button hypers they put it will change that fact. Casuals and scrubs will be bad until they put in the work to not be bad.

    So I don't post here? I couldn't care less about the FGC.

    Most people playing the game only want to be good enough to beat Arcade Mode and mess around with their friends. I don't 100% agree with the OP that the games need to be simplified completely but I don't see making them easier as a bad thing. Maybe that's because I don't play to be competitive.

    Obviously there are people who want to be good but aren't willing to lose 100 matches to get there. I don't know how anyone could change that or if it would even be possible. As you said there are games that do a good job of teaching you how to play but there will always be people who don't want to put it the slightest bit of effort. That's a shame but that doesn't mean those tools are some how a waste, there are probably just as many people taking advantage of training mode save states as there are ignoring them.

    I'm not actually what most would call part of the "scene." As I said in my earlier post I don't play online, ever, at all. I never have and its never appealed to me. So I don't come across these players that you guys do which may be why I have a bit of a different stance on them.

    The problem would then be catering to "scrubs" instead of "casuals." Having enough modes and characters for the casual players to feel like the game is worth their money is probably a better approach than dumbing down the controls. I'm fine with standard fighting game controls I just want to see more games.

    So would you admit youre in the wrong place then? I mean this is a pretty heavily fgc/evo focused website. You say you dont care about the fgc but youre here, which would say the opposite

    This is exactly my worry. The hardcore scene sees people who want to play a fighting game as they have to be hardcore?

    Why make this a zero sum game with only one winner, the hardcore?

    When we have the potential of satisfied casual players and satisfied hardcore players.

    Because this zero sum game is actually hurting the FGC in growth. The sales results year after year are worse and worse, with an occasional bump like SF4. However other genre's are booming and growing their fanbase.

    We can use tools to win over those new players. And those tools don't have to be at the expense of the hardcore.
  • ChingachgookChingachgook Joined: Posts: 29
    DoctaMario wrote: »
    Inb4 *yallniggazpostinginatrollthread*

    I don't believe that you're a hardcore fighting game player because Marvel vs. Capcom 3 is one of the most accessible fighting games ever made. There's no way that you used to play Street Fighter 2 at any kind of decent level and are having trouble with Marvel vs. Capcom 3 I just don't believe it.

    Lol no worries you don't have to believe me, because it's not about me.

    It's about making a better product for all of us to enjoy.

    I agree MvC3 is one of the most player-accessible fighting game. However it did not go far enough to allow casual players to just have fun with special moves. Still required was some ability to do a complex input.

    In my OP I try not to make player-accessibility a one-issue-silver bullet. Because it's not a single solution, it's a suite of multiple solutions, from giving players access to the moves, to giving campaign mode, survival mode, team-play and more.

    But many times these modes are after-thoughts never building past a lame 1.0 version of the PvE mode.

  • orochizoolanderorochizoolander 2LANDER! Joined: Posts: 15,547 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited December 2016
    Physical execution is just as integral to a well designed fighting game as the psychological strategic aspect, sacrificing one in favor of the other is lazy design and usually results in a shitty game. SF4 required some tight execution despite having a ton of leniency and being much easier to play than older fighting games yet strategically it was kind of shallow, UMVC3 was just shallow on both the execution and strategy which is why it's a running joke like Divekick. I love the fact that these 2 games exponentially increased the number of people playing fighting games, I love fighting games and hope other people can participate in that enjoyment, I don't want to go back to the early 00's where we had a slowly dying scene, but I hate how the influx of new players watered down and dictate the way games I want to play are made which is a trend I don't see ending anytime soon.


    Punishing those who made the FGC what it is today to curry favor of the new casual blood flowing into the scene is business as usual, can't stop capitalism however, SF5 for all it's obvious flaws is a step in the right direction between finding the middle ground between the vets who want a meaty experience to jump into and a curious newbie who likes the idea of fighting someone 1V1. The best solution I can think of is to allow developers to make a game as esoteric as they choose, but includ on the main menu options to watch tutorial videos breaking down fighting game terminology, basic fighting game concepts like what a crossup is, and demonstrating basic general strategies explaining why they work, in fact David Sirlin did just that for ST on CCC2, but to alter the integrity of the mechanics themselves to appease players unwilling to put in time and effort learning systems is just rewarding laziness.



    You can show someone a door, but they have to choose to walk through it right?



    MVC: I game play so far looks a lot like UMVC3, and the fact that Capcom said they want to make it more casual than UMVC3 which already bent over backwards to make the player feel like a special snowflake is troubling, I'm hoping it doesn't end up to be a game that rewards bad decisions and recklessness like UMVC3, but I'm not going to hold my breath considering what's been shown so far.
    P. gorath said: seriously though, it really crystalized how much better mvc3 is than that game. "Oh look, commando vs. 3 characters...this will be excitin--zzzzzzzzzzzzzZZzzzz"
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