The death of fighting games… A personal journey that hopefully can help MvC:I ???

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  • ChingachgookChingachgook Joined: Posts: 29
    toddler316 wrote: »
    That's a very long op to just say "I'm bad, I've always been bad, please make the games easier so I don't have to try harder"

    This when addressing what is a direct lift of "simple mode" from mvc2.

    Please turn off your computer and never return here.

    Seems I'll be coping and saying this allot:

    Thank you. Your proved my point EXACTLY. Hardcore mindset is basically "If you don't like it than leave"...

    And many people like us are doing EXACTLY that, we are leaving. But it doesn't have to be that way, the development of the game can be inclusive to both hardcore players and casual players, and nothing is wrong with that, actually it would make a better product and better environment.

    Thank you for proving my point... I'm not sure FGC can get past the small minded thinking IMHO.

    Thanks for the response.



  • ChingachgookChingachgook Joined: Posts: 29
    edited December 2016
    Pertho wrote: »
    Arcade mode

    Motherfucker, Arcade Mode was there so you'd have something to do until somebody showed up to play you.

    Arcade Mode is the OG story mode bullshit.

    Are just to accept OG ideas and OG acceptance that it's good enough? I liked my Iphone 3 but I sure like my Iphone 5 better.

    If we are willing to accept that arcade mode is good enough, and not adapt to the times and obvious industry changes than we can expect the same poor results of sales that fighting games are currently experiencing.

    I for one want to fight for the casual players, so we increase our chance to convert some of them into hardcore players.

    However old school attitudes of good enough are proving in lower and lower sales year after year it is in fact not good enough.

    We can slightly-help the casual audience and protect that hardcore players.
    We can slightly-help the casual audience and increase the amount of hardcore players we have and grow scenes.

    But two issues have to be fixed to do this, "player-accessibility" and "player-stickiness"

    And fixing these two issues don't have to be at the expense of the hardcore.


    Post edited by Chingachgook on
  • ChingachgookChingachgook Joined: Posts: 29
    NickRocks wrote: »
    i
    NickRocks wrote: »

    no

    The people that dont care about evo or the fgc dont even post here; the true casual buys a fighting game, mashes out enough jump in roundhouse sweeps to beat story mode, unlocks all characters/colors, beats the trials, and gets all the trophies and is content. He puts the game down and doesnt touch it again for years except for when a equally as casual buddy comes over and goes Yo u got dat mvc3? They put the game in and have a grand ol time mashing thor vs frank west.

    The scrub is the one that takes time and watches streams, cares about evo and the fgc, and whines about balance/"unfairness"/"op tactics" on forums. He is the one that capcom and the fighting game devs are listening to because there are more of him than there are people who actually play the game. The scrub hopped online got hit with AHVB and goes "MvC2 is a bad game because AHVB is a bad game design mechanic *the scrubs favorite buzz phrase* and never touches mvc2 again.

    The scrub is a casual who wont admit to himself hes a casual. There are games coming out with tutorial modes, TRAINING MODE RECORD REPLAY SAVE STATES!!! There is the amazing amazing resource tool known as youtube tutorial videos (i learned how to play cable in mvc2 just by watching videos). Yet even with all this, the scrub still goes "fighting games arent accessible enough" without even knowing what that means.

    If you ever put time into any fighting game and its scene then this should be pretty obvious to you. There are always guys who say yea i wanna learn mvc and so you show them some shit and you can tell they will never touch this game again because they dont want to lose. Its a tough pill to swallow to know ur just gonna get rekt over and over for hundreds if not thousands of matches before you accumulate enough knowledge to be even decent. No matter what tutorial mode or simple mode or one button assists or one button hypers they put it will change that fact. Casuals and scrubs will be bad until they put in the work to not be bad.

    So I don't post here? I couldn't care less about the FGC.

    Most people playing the game only want to be good enough to beat Arcade Mode and mess around with their friends. I don't 100% agree with the OP that the games need to be simplified completely but I don't see making them easier as a bad thing. Maybe that's because I don't play to be competitive.

    Obviously there are people who want to be good but aren't willing to lose 100 matches to get there. I don't know how anyone could change that or if it would even be possible. As you said there are games that do a good job of teaching you how to play but there will always be people who don't want to put it the slightest bit of effort. That's a shame but that doesn't mean those tools are some how a waste, there are probably just as many people taking advantage of training mode save states as there are ignoring them.

    I'm not actually what most would call part of the "scene." As I said in my earlier post I don't play online, ever, at all. I never have and its never appealed to me. So I don't come across these players that you guys do which may be why I have a bit of a different stance on them.

    The problem would then be catering to "scrubs" instead of "casuals." Having enough modes and characters for the casual players to feel like the game is worth their money is probably a better approach than dumbing down the controls. I'm fine with standard fighting game controls I just want to see more games.

    So would you admit youre in the wrong place then? I mean this is a pretty heavily fgc/evo focused website. You say you dont care about the fgc but youre here, which would say the opposite

    This is exactly my worry. The hardcore scene sees people who want to play a fighting game as they have to be hardcore?

    Why make this a zero sum game with only one winner, the hardcore?

    When we have the potential of satisfied casual players and satisfied hardcore players.

    Because this zero sum game is actually hurting the FGC in growth. The sales results year after year are worse and worse, with an occasional bump like SF4. However other genre's are booming and growing their fanbase.

    We can use tools to win over those new players. And those tools don't have to be at the expense of the hardcore.
  • ChingachgookChingachgook Joined: Posts: 29
    DoctaMario wrote: »
    Inb4 *yallniggazpostinginatrollthread*

    I don't believe that you're a hardcore fighting game player because Marvel vs. Capcom 3 is one of the most accessible fighting games ever made. There's no way that you used to play Street Fighter 2 at any kind of decent level and are having trouble with Marvel vs. Capcom 3 I just don't believe it.

    Lol no worries you don't have to believe me, because it's not about me.

    It's about making a better product for all of us to enjoy.

    I agree MvC3 is one of the most player-accessible fighting game. However it did not go far enough to allow casual players to just have fun with special moves. Still required was some ability to do a complex input.

    In my OP I try not to make player-accessibility a one-issue-silver bullet. Because it's not a single solution, it's a suite of multiple solutions, from giving players access to the moves, to giving campaign mode, survival mode, team-play and more.

    But many times these modes are after-thoughts never building past a lame 1.0 version of the PvE mode.

  • orochizoolanderorochizoolander 2LANDER! Joined: Posts: 15,634
    edited December 2016
    Physical execution is just as integral to a well designed fighting game as the psychological strategic aspect, sacrificing one in favor of the other is lazy design and usually results in a shitty game. SF4 required some tight execution despite having a ton of leniency and being much easier to play than older fighting games yet strategically it was kind of shallow, UMVC3 was just shallow on both the execution and strategy which is why it's a running joke like Divekick. I love the fact that these 2 games exponentially increased the number of people playing fighting games, I love fighting games and hope other people can participate in that enjoyment, I don't want to go back to the early 00's where we had a slowly dying scene, but I hate how the influx of new players watered down and dictate the way games I want to play are made which is a trend I don't see ending anytime soon.


    Punishing those who made the FGC what it is today to curry favor of the new casual blood flowing into the scene is business as usual, can't stop capitalism however, SF5 for all it's obvious flaws is a step in the right direction between finding the middle ground between the vets who want a meaty experience to jump into and a curious newbie who likes the idea of fighting someone 1V1. The best solution I can think of is to allow developers to make a game as esoteric as they choose, but includ on the main menu options to watch tutorial videos breaking down fighting game terminology, basic fighting game concepts like what a crossup is, and demonstrating basic general strategies explaining why they work, in fact David Sirlin did just that for ST on CCC2, but to alter the integrity of the mechanics themselves to appease players unwilling to put in time and effort learning systems is just rewarding laziness.



    You can show someone a door, but they have to choose to walk through it right?



    MVC: I game play so far looks a lot like UMVC3, and the fact that Capcom said they want to make it more casual than UMVC3 which already bent over backwards to make the player feel like a special snowflake is troubling, I'm hoping it doesn't end up to be a game that rewards bad decisions and recklessness like UMVC3, but I'm not going to hold my breath considering what's been shown so far.
    P. gorath said: seriously though, it really crystalized how much better mvc3 is than that game. "Oh look, commando vs. 3 characters...this will be excitin--zzzzzzzzzzzzzZZzzzz"
  • ChingachgookChingachgook Joined: Posts: 29
    edited December 2016
    Pertho wrote: »
    You know how we know you're retarded and dont care about fighting games?

    You think that capcom made the game more accessible to people through simple mode as opposed to all the other shitty mechanics the game put in so life would be more fun at the lower levels.

    Thays how we know there's nothing devs can really do to get you to play with us.

    I want us to have a deeper more meaningful conversation than just skating on the surface.

    As you say Capcom did make the game more accessible with simple mode. I saw this work myself when I hosted my sons birthday party with ten other 9 year olds. Simple mode allowed them all to enjoy the game a bit more, they had access to moves they enjoyed. The can improve simple mode even further.

    However we all, me included, don't want them to water down the game play for hardcore players. The way to protect hardcore players is to make simple-mode more robust with macos for casual players. This could lesson the need to adjust the hardcore gameplay mechanics we want to protect so much.

    I'll always continue to play fighters. I even stopped playing that FPS today to play some Marvel. However I'm not blind to the changes in the industry and how gamers at large today have changed. I truly believe if we make thoughtfull home for them, and protect the hardcore player needs, we can grow the FGC and make a better home for all of us.


  • Plaid_UnicornPlaid_Unicorn Camron should have won an Oscar for Paid in Full Joined: Posts: 9,931
    Thing about trends and trying to catch the casual fire in your pocket I give you exhibit A.

    Socom tried to cater to the cod crowd and grow it audience. So they completely changed what people loved about those games. a tactical 3rd person shooter that was heavily dependent on teamwork and you valuing that life at the beginning of the round. Casuals didn't want to wait 4 minutes between rounds watching their teammates play... they wanted to mash X and get right back in there only to be gunned down within 15 seconds. The devs made Socom 4 centered around lame modes and the ability to respawn and the whole fucking game died. Socom which was at one point Sonys most popular first party ip online is completely dead because casuals do what they do, they bought the game, played it for a week or 2 and never played it again.

    I recently got a friend to buy SFV. I am introducing him to the scene and how to properly play a fighter vs another person as opposed to the computer.. I beat his ass for like 3 hours today and told him what he was doing wrong, why sweep is a terrible button to push constantly in neutral, why frame data is important, why dropping combos is important ect ect. I want him to be apart of the scene as it is, for him to fall in love with the game as it is, not transform this thing into something that will make him feel better. If I lose him then so be it... everything isn't meant for everyone.

    Just because I lost... doesn't mean I was defeated
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  • ChingachgookChingachgook Joined: Posts: 29
    edited December 2016
    NickRocks wrote: »
    Pertho wrote: »
    You know how we know you're retarded and dont care about fighting games?

    You think that capcom made the game more accessible to people through simple mode as opposed to all the other shitty mechanics the game put in so life would be more fun at the lower levels.

    Thays how we know there's nothing devs can really do to get you to play with us.

    I want us to have a deeper more meaningful conversation than just skating on the surface.

    As you say Capcom did make the game more accessible with simple mode. I saw this work myself when I hosted my sons birthday party with ten other 9 year olds. Simple mode allowed them all to enjoy the game a bit more, they had access to moves they enjoyed. The can improve simple mode even further.

    However we all, me included, don't want them to water down the game play for hardcore players. The way to protect hardcore players is to make simple-mode more robust with macos for casual players. This could lesson the need to adjust the hardcore gameplay mechanics we want to protect so much.

    I'll always continue to play fighters. I even stopped playing that FPS today to play some Marvel. However I'm not blind to the changes in the industry and how gamers at large today have changed. I truly believe if we make thoughtfull home for them, and protect the hardcore player needs, we can grow the FGC and make a better home for all of us.


    what will this accomplish in keeping fighting games alive exactly?

    You know what happens when noobs like you who get simple mode macros show up to a tourney?

    They get fucking DESTROYED LMAO. Because simple mode macros will NEVEREVEREVER be the most optimized damaging combos. You cant macro shit like mvc2 rom infinite or ahvb or fly combos into commando. And what happens when u noobs get destroyed? U pout and go home and get on srk and type "fighting games arent acceptable" because you dont want to take the time to get actually good, you want false validation from the game that yes you are awesome heres ur gold star. Simple mode has always been good enough to beat the computer but it will never be competition viable. Sorry to crush ur dreams bro. Im convinced this is a troll thread too now

    It's not a troll thread. Wish it was, but if you haven't noticed developers ARE changing the game mechanics to make our games more "Player-accessible" However they are doing at the expense of the hardcore players by changing the game-mechanics, thus hurting what the hardcore respects, we respect the high level player-ability and player-skill.

    So If I'm trolling than the game developers are the king of trolls because they are the ones watering down the game-mechanics.

    However, if we ask that a solution for PvE and PvP are met with a distinct line in the sand, such as a ROBUST improved simple-mode, that can help the noobs perform all the moves, yet it also protect the hardcore game mechanics that we don't want watered down anymore.

    Because what is the developer solution today? It's water down the game-mechanics. Why don't we keep the game-mechanics at the hardcore level, in exchange for having noobs the ability to access all the special moves in the game with simple one or two button push? This way the noobs get accessibility, and the hardcore game mechanics are preserved.

    In addition It can help grow the playerbase having easy accessibility to all the moves. With a larger playerbase increases the chance some people will convert to hardcore. We all start as casuals and then grow into a hardcore player. To help this we need a larger player base, especially because the sales of fighting games are trending questionably.

    You right, noobs who think macros would win them a tournament are kidding themselves. Besides simple-mode is not allowed at most tournaments.

    However those noobs are the 80% that buy the game and are the fuel to fund the next game.

    We should cultivate our PvE player base, to increase participation and we can all benefit from a larger playerbase.
  • ChingachgookChingachgook Joined: Posts: 29
    I'm 100% okay with exploring ways to make fighters more accessible as long as they don't ruin the genre for the hardcore player. The thing is though, you can't just throw in some macros and be done with it. That just changes the new player experience from "button mashing normals and getting rekt" to "button mashing macros and getting rekt." You gotta teach them how the game is meant to be played in a way that will sink in. The execution barrier is such a small piece of the puzzle that it's ultimately insignificant. And pads are a viable input device. There is no requirement to get a stick in order to enjoy fighters.

    Exactly. Done correctly it would actually protect the hardcore game-engine that the hardcore players want, specifically keeping things like 1-frame Inputs.

    However we now have those 1-frame inputs expanded to 3 in the name of accessibility.

    When we could have kept the 1-frame input mechanic, and just provided noobs an improved expanded 2.0 version of simple-mode.

    Thanks for the reply.
  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,744 mod
    edited December 2016
    The funny thing is that, the Marvel games have always been meant to be casual friendly, with chain combos, and what basically work as 1 button specials (assists). It's usually how the players break open the game that make it more challenging to play competitively.
    Pertho wrote: »
    If this motherfucker says hardcore one more fucking time...

    PvE elements. Like I said before, you just want boss rush mode so you can say you totally beat God Ryu by doing it with x y or z character and you're so cool because of it. I mean i get it. I basically did everything you could do in SC3 except for that shitty mode that would corrupt your save data.

    But none of the easy controls or massive single player nonsense has saved that series nor increase the amount of players in the scene for it.

    "But you dont get it. It'll really work if you do it to this one game i like thats the one that will break through and suddenly fightets will be huge and esports man".

    Think that all you want but it hasnt happened.
    I like the fact that somehow PVE is supposed to make something a "huge esport" when the latter has nothing to do with PVE.
    Post edited by d3v on
  • IglooBobIglooBob Bob the builder Joined: Posts: 4,039
    it really doesn't take that much time to learn enough combos to become competitive. spend a few hours in training mode as your starting point. start building your game from there. I imagine this is how every competitive game is.
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 56,819 mod
    Fantasy Strike is coming out soon.

    Ain't nothin, Capcom's ruthless still producin.  Cut em a check or find yoself toothless.  Keep it shill with no confusin.  Niggas say I'm shill...they ain't hard I can prove it YEEEAH


  • ValoonValoon Joined: Posts: 1,980
    edited December 2016
    I am not against a mode for people who want to play it where they can do moves with one button and combos by mashing a few buttons but then it is his own mode and it doesn't touch anything else.

    No half damage if you do it this way kind of crap, you want to play like this, then you play this mode with people who want to play this way too.

    But then people will not like it because they might feel tossed aside, which would not be completly wrong.


    The fun of fighting games for me is the reward you get for training at them. If I can't do something, I spend hours in training and then I start to do it in real games and it feels good.
    I even go back to USFIV sometimes just to play training mode and do the combos because they are not that challenging in SFV.

    One thing I don't get tho is the "motion to do moves" problem. I don't want to offend you but come on. Since I did not start that long ago (with USFIV) I remember very well my start. First I started on keyboard because I had nothing else and I could do moves after one night. Granted on keyboard it's easy, then I switched to stick and it took a few days to be pretty consistent even in combos. It's not like it takes months.
    I also have a friend who started with SFV he has around 50 hours on it (most of it is playing with me or with friends not training mode), he plays Karin which is arguably pretty hard execution wise compared to most of the cast, plays on pad and he has trouble doing combos for sure but he does moves motions in his sleep already.
    Hell he has a friend who is the typical casual button masher and he does the moves no problem. He doesn't even own the game.

    I am talking SF but it's the same for any game.
    [SFV] Ken
    [USFIV] Ken
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  • KiyaaKingKiyaaKing Joined: Posts: 1,043
    edited December 2016
    forte95 wrote: »
    I don't think casuals leave because moves are hard. They leave because they lose.

    There've been comparisons to Counter Strike and DotA, and I want to say the things said about those games are wrong.

    OP relates to loving FGs since their inception; I can attest to the very same thing for CS and DotA. I've loved that shit since the day it was made and I've been in the scene before we were even called a "scene" (they came out later than FGs so you don't have to be as old to be OG, you just had to be in the right country cause North America gave zero shits about DotA before DotA 2).

    And I can tell you that tons of "casuals" drop the game because they fucking suck. I've seen them all come and go. They tinker with it a little bit, but when the game starts and they're up against someone good, they do absolutely jack shit before dying for the thousandth time, so they never play again.

    It didn't help that you could "click and things would happen", or press a button to move and "it would happen".

    Come to think of it, I've never heard a casual complain about shoryukens until the first time they get mauled. Then all of a sudden it's all, "I swear I did a shoryuken! This game cheats."

    ---

    So the real problem you have to deal with is how to make losing suck less. I'm not saying it's all on you to fix that. No matter how good you are or how much you love to learn, there's always gonna be a time when you lose and you get salty. And there's always gonna be someone better than you so you'll never run out of Ls you have to take.

    But my point is, I don't think making the controls easier will do anything, unless you also address the fact that losing sucks a lot more than not being able to do a move.

    Good point, and in that regard I do see a way fighting games can help casuals deal with it. The only problem is that it's very difficult to design and probably too much work for a non-guaranteed result. What I'm referring to is an automated coach.

    It's possible to design an in-game coach that records your inputs and overall performance each game and gives pointers for how to improve your game after a loss. This could be useful to anyone, but would especially be useful to casuals who don't really know what they're doing or why they're losing.

    The issue with it is that there often isn't a clear distinction between what decisions/practices are good or bad in fighting games. Some things that aren't good in one situation are great in another. Because of this, I doubt an in-game coach can get sophisticated enough to give accurate advice for every game, or even most games. I could be wrong, but it just seems like too much work for the possible reward of a casual wanting to learn and stick with the game.
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  • NickRocksNickRocks DeathPlay Joined: Posts: 22,749
    So many long ass posts about how to make fighting games accessible...yall couldve been practicing combos instead, and then you wouldnt need to worry about if the game helps you win or not

    I wonder if the FPS scene has to deal with stuff like this. "Auto aim should be allowed online" lololol
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  • ArtVandelayArtVandelay Architect Joined: Posts: 5,529
    edited December 2016
    A pad player just won Capcom Cup, a pad player that was also fucking sick at the previous SF which was much harder in terms of mechanical skill.
    So basically get your weak-ass excuse of pad players having difficulties learning fighting games out of here.

    Also what the fuck is wrong with your "I can't get the move out"-bullshit.
    In an FPS you get the headshot every time you want it, and don't need to practice like a fiend?

    Making shit easier doesn't appeal the casual gamer.
    What appeals the casual gamer is the illusion of there being more than just the 1v1 element.
    Let them have it and let them fuck off when that shit is exhausted and tell their friends how cool this game is.
    Our favorite game racks up sales and Capcom or whoever will support it for a longer time, great.

    I don't want to be left with fucking Rising Thunder though, when those retards finally fuck off.

    If you want fighting games to be more popular, look over to Mortal Kombat and especially about what NRS does aside from delivering a core fighting game.
    They got a recognizable brand, they got the violence gimmick that always rolls with young people, they deliver a shit load of content for you to unlock and they are bringing in guest characters.

    The core fighting game is questionable in terms of quality, but that doesn't even matter to a casual audience. People want to sink time into those single player modes and talk to their friends how Cassie Cage saved christmas, then be done with it until they can play as fucking Alien.

    Capcom failed to deliver completely on the casual playerbase with SFV, even though the core gameplay is made for casuals, which is retarded as fuck.
    I hope they learned from that mistake and do a better job on Marvel, though I doubt it, since those monkeys still try to push e-sports in a game that doesn't have any youngbloods coming into the game, since only people who were already hooked on previous titles play that fucking game.
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  • HawkingbirdHawkingbird I am thou...thou art I Joined: Posts: 26,292
    Pair Play is the only hope for casuals. When casuals played SFxT pair play is all they wanted to do. Hoping they can team up with someone good who will take them to victory. Those fuckers never wanted to be on point.
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  • DoctaMarioDoctaMario Sometimes It Snows In April... Joined: Posts: 3,425
    DoctaMario wrote: »
    Inb4 *yallniggazpostinginatrollthread*

    I don't believe that you're a hardcore fighting game player because Marvel vs. Capcom 3 is one of the most accessible fighting games ever made. There's no way that you used to play Street Fighter 2 at any kind of decent level and are having trouble with Marvel vs. Capcom 3 I just don't believe it.

    Lol no worries you don't have to believe me, because it's not about me.

    It's about making a better product for all of us to enjoy.

    I agree MvC3 is one of the most player-accessible fighting game. However it did not go far enough to allow casual players to just have fun with special moves. Still required was some ability to do a complex input.

    In my OP I try not to make player-accessibility a one-issue-silver bullet. Because it's not a single solution, it's a suite of multiple solutions, from giving players access to the moves, to giving campaign mode, survival mode, team-play and more.

    But many times these modes are after-thoughts never building past a lame 1.0 version of the PvE mode.

    Okay, but the execution is a former of PvE. So is character knowledge. Granted it probably isn't the PvE you're thinking of (I guess I don't really know what you mean by PvE) but it still counts imo. And fighting games have some of the most advanced PvP there is.
    "Money matches are against the law in Japan. They can never be good at Marvel." -4r5
  • PerthoPertho The Runed One Joined: Posts: 22,008 mod
    I like how there's apparently no execution in WoW, FPSes or MOBAs.

    Let me fucking tell you how retarded I am at FPSes. I couldn't get a head shot on a standing enemy. MOBAs have all sorts of nonsensical decisions, limit your attacks with a retarded counter and are full of wack ass strategy more obtuse than "control space" in an FG.

    I guess we need a clicky clacky fighting game so people can feel good. I might address some of the finer points into some long complicated post that the OP and his buttbuddy will ignore because they just want SRK to turn into a giant group hug or I could go do something useful. I'll do the latter.
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    jimmy1200 wrote: »
    pertho attacked me first, saying i get all my life tips from 106th and park.
  • NickRocksNickRocks DeathPlay Joined: Posts: 22,749
    Execution is even worse now in fpses now that niggas can superjump
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  • CyanPrimeCyanPrime Joined: Posts: 47
    I just had a thought about this. For people who don't want to input "complex commands" (QCFs, or 236s) why not use charge characters, like Guile, Remy, Vatista, etc? Then it's way more about the timing then "complex commands."
  • ChingachgookChingachgook Joined: Posts: 29
    forte95 wrote: »
    I don't think casuals leave because moves are hard. They leave because they lose.

    There've been comparisons to Counter Strike and DotA, and I want to say the things said about those games are wrong.

    OP relates to loving FGs since their inception; I can attest to the very same thing for CS and DotA. I've loved that shit since the day it was made and I've been in the scene before we were even called a "scene" (they came out later than FGs so you don't have to be as old to be OG, you just had to be in the right country cause North America gave zero shits about DotA before DotA 2).

    And I can tell you that tons of "casuals" drop the game because they fucking suck. I've seen them all come and go. They tinker with it a little bit, but when the game starts and they're up against someone good, they do absolutely jack shit before dying for the thousandth time, so they never play again.

    It didn't help that you could "click and things would happen", or press a button to move and "it would happen".

    Come to think of it, I've never heard a casual complain about shoryukens until the first time they get mauled. Then all of a sudden it's all, "I swear I did a shoryuken! This game cheats."

    ---

    So the real problem you have to deal with is how to make losing suck less. I'm not saying it's all on you to fix that. No matter how good you are or how much you love to learn, there's always gonna be a time when you lose and you get salty. And there's always gonna be someone better than you so you'll never run out of Ls you have to take.

    But my point is, I don't think making the controls easier will do anything, unless you also address the fact that losing sucks a lot more than not being able to do a move.

    Great response. I agree with the gist of what you're saying, let's widen the view, and deepen the discussion so we can apply what your correctly saying in a more full body discussion.

    You are correct when you say many noobs leave because they lose. However let's widen our view.

    As I mention player accessibility is not a one-silver-bullet solution. It will take a suite, a multitude of solutions to fully address.

    First let me defend the simplified-inputs as a small part of the solution, then I'll address your point about noobs leave because they don't win.

    Easy access to a special move a casual player wants is part of the solution. Is it 10%? of the solution? Is it 20% is it 30%? We don't know how much it will solve. However this video showcases as proof that simplification of inputs does contribute to keeping interest of new players: (at 3:00 minutes simplification of complex inputs helps his friends stay interested and says himself at 3:40 says simplification is one of the methods to keep new players. What's really sad is the hardcore players game-mechanics could be completely preserved, by giving noobs all-access to special moves. Instead of that solution Capcom has taken away most(all?) one frame links in SFV. There are solutions to keep that high level game-mechanic with no compromise. Yet still give noobs access. But Capcom chooses to water down the game mechanics. Players should ask for better solutions.)

    To directly address your point that noobs leave because they lose, yes, however that is only in a PVP laser focus view.

    There can be additional options as people have mentioned, a suit/multitude of solutions for the casual players to win. These players can win in survival mode, they can win in campaign mode, win in high score mode, and other creative PvE activities. We don't have to make this a zero sum game. Or a zero-sum product, that lets other products provide a more complete offering.

    This solution would not only help with player-accessibility, it would also help with player-stickiness overall helping increase our player base.

    A larger player base helps us all.
  • HawkingbirdHawkingbird I am thou...thou art I Joined: Posts: 26,292
    It sounds like Dragon Ball XenoVerse is the game your looking for OP.
    PSN: Hawkingbird
    FC: 0834-1564-0151
    http://steamcommunity.com/id/runawayavenger
  • shmurdasceneshmurdascene Joined: Posts: 126
    edited December 2016
    Pertho wrote: »
    What your dumb ass and schmurdascene's want us to do is care about you not wanting to play with us because you have some issue we can't fucking control with these types of games.

    You know why? Because nobody has and nobody will ever make the case that Boss Rush mode in the handle Castlevania games are Fighting Games. Megaman doesn't suddenly turn into a fighting game when you have to beat the 8 game bosses before you fight Dr. Wily. As much as you need to tell yourself that if we just make things easy enough you'll play, you won't.

    Because I don't have any desire to play online (in any game not just fighting games) I somehow have an issue with fighting games? It has nothing to do with difficulty and everything to do with growing up without it and never seeing the need to go online.

    You guys have your heads stuck so far up your asses you don't realize your fighting game "skills" aren't impressing any one.

    You still don't get it. We don't want to learn how to play the game like you.

    Mega Man and Castlevania aren't fighting games so of course Boss Rush doesn't make them fighting games. Single player modes in fighting games still have fighting game gameplay, because playing a single player mode in a fighting game is playing a fighting game.
    Pertho wrote: »
    You wouldn't be playing a fighting game if you were just playing a computer.

    Then how do I have thousands of hours playing fighting games against the computer. You guys are incredibly immature. I don't play the game how you play it so somehow I'm not playing it at all. I don't count because I don't play online. Your like a child covering their ears because they don't want to hear the truth.

    I am just as much of a fighting game player as you.
    Pertho wrote: »
    Almost all of the shit you've suggested has done nothing to bring people to us.

    I don't know about, @Chingachgook but I don't care about bringing players to your scene. I care about fighting games selling so they can get sequels.
    d3v wrote: »
    The purpose of "arcade" and story modes was to pad out the $60 games in the days when there wasn't any sort of online play on consoles

    No they were the game on home consoles. Period. People played against friends too but how many people have friends over every time they want to play? Not that many.
This discussion has been closed.