The death of fighting games… A personal journey that hopefully can help MvC:I ???

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  • learis1learis1 Guardian Cadet Joined: Posts: 802
    It seems like the majority of the OP was about execution barriers. Marvel definitely has some tough execution in it. But I think the future is looking better in this department. Capcom seems be moving more towards leniency of execution if SFV is any indication.

    A part of me is glad about this because it means I can focus more on strategy without having as big a wall of execution to hurdle over. But a part of me is also worried about this...

    I sadly gave up on SFV for one main reason: homogenization. Many of the characters felt rather similar in their strategies and frame data. I feel like Capcom was too safe in making SFV and they lost a lot of the heart and soul of the game. I sincerely hope this is not the case with MVCI. I want each character in that game to feel creative and unique. Hopefully execution considerations don't detract from the creativity and uniqueness behind each character.
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  • HecatomHecatom Aka Black Gorilla (・Д・)ノ Joined: Posts: 21,512
    Pertho wrote: »
    Names withheld to protect something or other:
    Traditional fighting game companies can learn from Ubisoft's FOR HONOR

    The best modern fighting game is not produced by any traditional fighting game developer. Look out Capcam, NAMCO, Netherealms, SNK, Atlus etc. etc. etc. because here comes FOR HONOR by Ubisoft.

    We can look to traditional fighting game companies to demonstrate arrested development. We can look to Capcom, NAMCO, and many other traditional fighting game developers and see they are woefully behind any progressive ideas to move the fighting game genre forward.

    For decades players have asked these traditional fighters to be progressive, push the fighting game mechanics to new areas of fun and exploration.

    However fighting game developers soon discovered changing the core-gameplay typically change the game too drastically. So drastically it was no longer the same game.

    These drastic changes meant hardcore players might not return to the franchise. Also drastic changes meant it was financially safer to give the niche fan-base what they wanted, the same basic game, with only a small variance in gameplay.

    What results is a genera tailoring to the hardcore, slowly leaving behind the casual market (80% of the player base left behind) and arresting the development of any progressive ideas and or exploratory aspects for the genre of fighting games.

    Thank god for Ubisoft FOR HONOR. Ubisoft's game sheds light on the woefully behind fighting game genre.

    Where to start on the juxtaposition?

    My first thought is FOR HONOR was a game NAMCO should have developed years ago (Looking at you Soul Calibur) But lets take a closer look on why traditional fighting game companies can learn a thing or two or a dozen from Ubisoft.

    Fist Ubisoft proves a 3rd person camera works for fighting games. That is a camera behind the player. Imagine a Street fighter, or Tekken, any your favorite fighter done this way? The visuals are more spectacular.

    This 3rd person view, allows for fuller 3D character movement, this is important is it brings the stage environment more into life. This allows for the "stages" to play even a more important role.

    Such as ring outs, yes we know traditional fighting games have ring outs, however FOR HONOR ring out locations are ever changing dynamic places on the staging. Allot of this owing to the 3rd person camera angle.

    Also the different terrain heights adds to the fun, as one player fights on the stairs and the other player below on the ground. Again other traditional fighting games (Tekken 4 comes to mind) played around with terrain variants, however the negative blow-back from players on the overall Tekken 4 experience was overwhelming.

    Once bitten twice shy NAMCO decided to go back to basics in Tekken 5. To say it another way, they decided to play it safe. So have Capcom and many other companies.

    But playing it safe, while understandable to satisfy the hardcore, has left the genres with little to no exploration to further the genre. It's really to bad too, as some aspects of Tekken 4 could have been worked out over time to move the genre forward, but as they say it's arrested-development-history.

    Again FOR HONOR not only pushes the genres forward it does so in so many directions it's hard to catalogue all of the differences.

    So I'll try to rapid fire through many of them:

    - The game takes into account the 99% of players today play on CONTROL PADS. And thus is FULLY accessible to the 99% the VAST majority of player base.
    - TEAM PLAY! Talk about a lagging behind the times for traditional fighting game developers! REALLY over 25 years of gameplay and we only had at best a "tag" option.... FOR HONOR supports teams of 2, 3 and 4 players, a total of 8 players at the same time!
    - A capture the flag element of 3 zones to capture, more TEAM PLAY aspects!
    - A solo player CAMPAIGN. Why traditional fighting game companies put little to no effort in campaigns anymore is beyond my understanding

    Now don't get me wrong, the traditional fighting game companies do have a secret sauce that cant be easily replaced. High quality versus gameplay mechanics, iconic characters but what traditional fighting game companies product offering is old and stale.

    It's like comparing the features of a 1970 Camero to the 2016 Camero with anti-lock brakes, power windows, air-conditioned seats, the 1970 car just doesn't even have those options available.

    Is the 1970 Camero still fun to drive, yes sure it is, however you get more with the 2016 Camero. And the 2016 Camero is advancing, pushing forward... The 1970's Camero is stuck in time.

    And that's the problem with the traditional fighting game conundrum, change to 2016 design, but risk loosing those people who only prefer driving the classics.

    I for one am ready to move forward, hopefully Capcam, NAMCO and others are ready too.

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  • S00perCamS00perCam Cold as ice Joined: Posts: 2,347
    I agree on the for honor sentiment entirely the game industry is getting stale 2 years ago Rocket league put the sports genre on notice last year Overwatch put FPS games on notice and I'm glad it's Fighting games turn New gameplay fresh gameplay. SF 30 year anniversary is this year and (while I'm admittedly excited for it) we are getting yet ANOTHER revision of SF2.

    If MVCI shakes things up and makes it accessible or whatever I'll be with it. I loved the ABCS System for MVC3 and if they dumb it down further good. This fighting games are overly complicated and too samey conversation has been going on too long, it's not everyone else that's the problem it's the games.
    Just because your buff, don't play tuff Cause I'll reverse the earth and turn your flesh back to dust
  • Raging_ZoroarkRaging_Zoroark Disgraceful! Joined: Posts: 1,291
    I really don't understand what some people have against tradicional fighting games. I mean, it's nice to have games like For Honor and Smash Brothers (more options are always welcome), but tradicional FGs also have their place among the gamers. There are a lot of games that already offers a more casual experience, no need to change (or eliminate) the ones aimed at competitive play.

    And lol to the "fighting games getting stale". People are so blind at what really happens in the matches that it really baffles me. They sound like my parents: "Dunno how you can sit there for hours just trading blows with someone".
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  • S00perCamS00perCam Cold as ice Joined: Posts: 2,347
    Typical question my cred or act like I'm stupid response I expect from SRK. The only reason I deal with this insufferable group of man-children is because I love fighting games as they are and as they have been. Change gon' come motherfuckers.
    Just because your buff, don't play tuff Cause I'll reverse the earth and turn your flesh back to dust
  • Evolution169Evolution169 Wake up DP is unbeatable Joined: Posts: 1,002
    S00perCam wrote: »
    I agree on the for honor sentiment entirely the game industry is getting stale 2 years ago Rocket league put the sports genre on notice last year Overwatch put FPS games on notice and I'm glad it's Fighting games turn New gameplay fresh gameplay. SF 30 year anniversary is this year and (while I'm admittedly excited for it) we are getting yet ANOTHER revision of SF2.

    If MVCI shakes things up and makes it accessible or whatever I'll be with it. I loved the ABCS System for MVC3 and if they dumb it down further good. This fighting games are overly complicated and too samey conversation has been going on too long, it's not everyone else that's the problem it's the games.

    I don't see how anyone can think fighters as a genre have gotten stale. SF, GG, KI, MK, Tekken, DOA, SC, and Marvel are all very different gameplay experiences within the genre. Obviously many share the same mechanics, but it's not like they feel the like clones of the same game.

    Overwatch is just doing what TF2 has been doing for 10 years. For Honor has not proven itself to be a serious fighting game, so let's see how that discussion plays out before declaring it to be the next big fighter.

    And Rocket League didn't put the sports genre on notice because the sports genre is largely based on actual real life sports. If you're a huge soccer fan, you're going to want to play FIFA over Rocket League. I personally love Rocket League and hate sports games.
  • S00perCamS00perCam Cold as ice Joined: Posts: 2,347
    S00perCam wrote: »
    I agree on the for honor sentiment entirely the game industry is getting stale 2 years ago Rocket league put the sports genre on notice last year Overwatch put FPS games on notice and I'm glad it's Fighting games turn New gameplay fresh gameplay. SF 30 year anniversary is this year and (while I'm admittedly excited for it) we are getting yet ANOTHER revision of SF2.

    If MVCI shakes things up and makes it accessible or whatever I'll be with it. I loved the ABCS System for MVC3 and if they dumb it down further good. This fighting games are overly complicated and too samey conversation has been going on too long, it's not everyone else that's the problem it's the games.

    I don't see how anyone can think fighters as a genre have gotten stale. SF, GG, KI, MK, Tekken, DOA, SC, and Marvel are all very different gameplay experiences within the genre. Obviously many share the same mechanics, but it's not like they feel the like clones of the same game.

    Overwatch is just doing what TF2 has been doing for 10 years. For Honor has not proven itself to be a serious fighting game, so let's see how that discussion plays out before declaring it to be the next big fighter.

    And Rocket League didn't put the sports genre on notice because the sports genre is largely based on actual real life sports. If you're a huge soccer fan, you're going to want to play FIFA over Rocket League. I personally love Rocket League and hate sports games.

    That's the problem you cant see the other side of it. You and I might see SF and it's fundamentalist gameplay, GG with all of its options and freedom, KI with its mindgames, MK with it's aggression, Tekken with the insane spacing. We see all the intricacies of the game and the excitement that comes from that but to the people who never got into it they see 2 characters walking back and forth on a screen. While there's more to it and you know it and I know it it just isn't going to interest the people it doesn't interest. It's not a square peg round hole situation either fighting is a broad term it's not like a sub genre of strategy like card games for example where there has to be cards, it doesn't have to be 2 lifebars side by side characters as long as concepts like spacing, moral, abare, okizeme etc can be applied and it interests people I'm with it. Variety is the spice of life and like mine hot goddamnit.

    Pertho wrote: »
    ....it feels like the people who have played the least amount ....

    make the TF2 Overwatch comparison its dumber than the purposely hyperbolic Soul Calibur For Honor comparison, if you've played either game then you know they just aren't all that alike other than there are classes.

    And to address your point about Rocket League, That's my point exactly you don't like traditional format sports games but Rocket League took a different approach there fore you like Rocket League. For Honor for example has gotten people who don't even like Fighting games to play one.

    I mean I get it this is SRK no one likes ANYTHING not even Street Fighter every Street fighter since Hyper Fighting has been completely shat on as the current game up until the new version dropped except SF3 which has never gotten it's due.


    Just because your buff, don't play tuff Cause I'll reverse the earth and turn your flesh back to dust
  • Evolution169Evolution169 Wake up DP is unbeatable Joined: Posts: 1,002
    @S00perCam

    OW and TF2 are both class-based, arcade, team shooters. OW just takes it way further with the amount of classes and what they can do.

    I don't believe RL is a sports game in the same sense that FIFA is a sports game. Sure, you play a sport, but it's nothing like an actual sports game. That's like me saying Fighting Vipers and UFC should be in the same genre because they are both cage fighting. It's dishonest.
  • PerthoPertho The Runed One Joined: Posts: 21,067 mod
    edited February 14
    I forgot how much of a terrible poster s00per is.

    See the people that complain about us being closed minded dont get it: we came here because we lime a certain style of fighting games. This place isnt about any random combat game; thats not what this scene is about.

    For Honor is doing its own thing and people like it? Great for it and its player. They get to play something new and different. Same with Smash. The problem is that there is this insistence that somehow this place has to bend over backwards because of some ultimate argument that has to be settled because of w/e dumb ass moniker was given to the collected communities after arcades mostly ceased operations in the United States. Not only do our people in SRK already playing it, we also don't have to bend over backwards for something different. This place was set up to keep a style of gaming alive. That's what makes it special. If other forms or styles of games come up, good for them. Are we asking the Unreal Tournament players to allow FGs because our tournaments are also 1v1?

    "Why don't you guys play this other game that shares some similarities with the ones you play?"

    Because we like the ones that came for.

    Edit: get to add some additional things on keyboard so lets roll with it:

    For Honor is not similar to SC. As far as I know nobody in here has made that comparison except you. Instead its closer to Bushido Blade which a lot of us want a sequel to. Calling it a fighting game, as it applies to this community, is a fucking stretch when there are 5 people fighting. At that point its basically WoW pvp without casters. If you're suggesting that 1v1 WoW PVP is a fighting game call Blizzard and get that shit at Evo.
    Ronin Chaos on Pertho:

    "Oh, Pertho. You complete me."
    jimmy1200 wrote: »
    pertho attacked me first, saying i get all my life tips from 106th and park.
  • S00perCamS00perCam Cold as ice Joined: Posts: 2,347

    I love you too Pertho.

    It's not about being close minded it's about accepting the truth. Fighting games as we know it are dying and have been doing so for a while. I'm going to love and buy everyone that comes out. Let it sink in though:

    Pokken which is basically a Naruto party fighter with Pokémon, POKEMON, almost kicked MARVEL out of the EVO lineup. Windjammers was almost an EVO game, Fucking Nidhogg idk what it even is supposed to be, was nominated for the lineup. There are 2 Smash games In the line up. When I joined on my first account whenever CVS2 EO came out there would have been blood in the streets over that shit. You cant get much further from a traditional EVO lineup than what we have. Fuck 1v1 WoW PvP might get nominated next year if you keep talking.

    Wiz is going to follow the money he only keeps getting better at it with time. Easy games make money period.
    Just because your buff, don't play tuff Cause I'll reverse the earth and turn your flesh back to dust
  • NoChartNoChart Some say it's vanity, some say it's charm. Joined: Posts: 732
    edited February 14
    As many have said, execution barriers aren't the issue. The "simple" controls mode included in such fighters as MvC3 and GG don't solve the problem in any appreciable way. New players will get bopped because they get zoned-out, blocked wrong, got punished for throwing out unsafe moves, and failed to adapt; not because they got "out-executed". You need to instill the strategies of high-level play, and Arksys/ Reverge Labs have come the closest to addressing this(mission mode and tutorial respectively)- though it's still not perfect. Most casuals will still take the L too many times and end up quitting before they even try learning the game.

    My suggestion is simple: Don't expect everyone to dig for the answers elsewhere. Lead a horse(casual) to water. After a match, have the game itself offer to inform the player why they may have lost. Have a system in place that reviews the match-up in pure numbers and counts up how many jump-ins and overheads they ate, how often they threw out unsafe normals/specials, how many times they were walked into the corner, etc. Use that raw data to offer up a "Review Match" button for an in-game explanation that covers core concepts in quick snippets.

    Press: "Review Match"

    "You got anti-aired 8 times that match. A strong opponent will recognize your habits and punish you accordingly."

    Anti-air explanation follows.
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  • PSYCH0J0SHPSYCH0J0SH Joined: Posts: 4,764
    edited February 14
    S00perCam wrote: »
    I love you too Pertho.

    It's not about being close minded it's about accepting the truth. Fighting games as we know it are dying and have been doing so for a while. I'm going to love and buy everyone that comes out. Let it sink in though:

    Pokken which is basically a Naruto party fighter with Pokémon, POKEMON, almost kicked MARVEL out of the EVO lineup. Windjammers was almost an EVO game, Fucking Nidhogg idk what it even is supposed to be, was nominated for the lineup. There are 2 Smash games In the line up. When I joined on my first account whenever CVS2 EO came out there would have been blood in the streets over that shit. You cant get much further from a traditional EVO lineup than what we have. Fuck 1v1 WoW PvP might get nominated next year if you keep talking.

    Wiz is going to follow the money he only keeps getting better at it with time. Easy games make money period.

    With the exception of Windjammer and Nidhogg, all the other games are fighting games. You need to be more open minded that's all. The genre is broadening if anything.

    Despite what all the SRK gutter trolls say, Smash is for all intents and purposes a proper fighting game and it can't be defined as anything else. It has everything that other fighting games have. Mixups, grab games, resets, tech rolls and a complex meta. It belongs at Evo. The major difference is that the stages play a critical role as well. The fact that it has a lot of options for casual players doesn't make it any less of a fighting game. Smash doesn't fit any other category, it's not an FPS, it's not an RTS, it's not competitive Tetris. It is a real fighting game, even if SF and Marvel fanboys like to shit all over it, it nonetheless is the same type of game.
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  • Raging_ZoroarkRaging_Zoroark Disgraceful! Joined: Posts: 1,291
    edited February 14
    Pertho wrote: »
    Sometimes it feels like the people who have played the least amount of games are the ones asking for more shake ups.

    Makes sense. People that don't enjoy fighting games want them to become non fighting games, so they can (maybe) enjoy it (which, for the majority of them, means playing for 2 weeks and forgetting about the game's existence afterwards). Again, I find extremely positive to have games like For Honor and Smash, because it adds options to the market and there's always the possibility that someone that plays those games may become interested in fighting games in the future (I used to play smash before getting into FGs).

    But when people start to suggest a huge overhaul to already estabilished franchises, saying shit like this:
    First Ubisoft proves a 3rd person camera works for fighting games. That is a camera behind the player. Imagine a Street fighter, or Tekken, any your favorite fighter done this way? The visuals are more spectacular.

    ...that's where the problem lies. Seriously motherfucker? You are suggesting a MAJOR change to a fighting game (3d person camera) that would change the gameplay in a radical and drastic way, and visuals, FUCKING VISUALS, is the first thing that comes to your mind? GTFO, you don't have any idea what are you talking about.

    Casual market is bigger than hardcore market? Sure thing bro. But if wasn't for the hardcore EVO wouldn't exist, FGs wouldn't survive for that long and awesome things like Daigo's parry moment wouldn't exist either. I'm sure that a lot of people enjoy watching high level tournaments, even if they aren't invested in playing FGs seriously (like my brother).

    Also @Pertho where this huge scrubquote comes from?
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  • Evolution169Evolution169 Wake up DP is unbeatable Joined: Posts: 1,002
    S00perCam wrote: »
    Pokken which is basically a Naruto party fighter with Pokémon, POKEMON, almost kicked MARVEL out of the EVO lineup.
    Pokken was at EVO last year, so it makes sense that it developed a hardcore fanbase and they wanted it back. The way I see it, a game from 2011 with terrible online play and that was discontinued for years beat out Pokken. That tells me that people still aren't sick of UMvC3.
    S00perCam wrote: »
    Windjammers was almost an EVO game, Fucking Nidhogg idk what it even is supposed to be, was nominated for the lineup.
    Neither of those games came close to being at EVO.
    S00perCam wrote: »
    There are 2 Smash games In the line up. When I joined on my first account whenever CVS2 EO came out there would have been blood in the streets over that shit. You cant get much further from a traditional EVO lineup than what we have.
    I don't know about Smash 4, but Melee is far from casual friendly. And Smash games have been using the same formula for 18 years. They aren't fresh.
    S00perCam wrote: »
    Fuck 1v1 WoW PvP might get nominated next year if you keep talking.
    I'm sure there is a line that can be crossed and WoW PVP is way past it.
  • S00perCamS00perCam Cold as ice Joined: Posts: 2,347
    Pokken was at EVO last year, so it makes sense that it developed a hardcore fanbase and they wanted it back. The way I see it, a game from 2011 with terrible online play and that was discontinued for years beat out Pokken. That tells me that people still aren't sick of UMvC3.

    Wait are you going to sit here dogpile on me for saying we should be open minded about fighters and then tell me with a straight face that Pokken should have beaten the bell of the Ball Marvel Vs Capcom for a spot at EVO the event that Marvel has made? GTFO just GTFO
    Neither of those games came close to being at EVO.

    They came closer than Legit games like CVS2, 3s, Darkstalkers, or Virtua Fighter 5

    I don't know about Smash 4, but Melee is far from casual friendly. And Smash games have been using the same formula for 18 years. They aren't fresh.

    I'm not questioning Smashes validity at all I was never one of those guys

    I'm sure there is a line that can be crossed and WoW PVP is way past it.

    Maybe but Pokken Nidhogg and Windjammers bring us closer to that line for sure.

    This conversation is starting to become one of double standards I feel which is great. I feel the OP shouldn't have been shat on like he was and has a point.
    Just because your buff, don't play tuff Cause I'll reverse the earth and turn your flesh back to dust
  • Evolution169Evolution169 Wake up DP is unbeatable Joined: Posts: 1,002
    S00perCam wrote: »
    This conversation is starting to become one of double standards I feel which is great.
    I dont't recall seeing anyone say Windjammers and Nidhogg would be fine at EVO. You are clinging to the fact that they were part of the fundraiser as some sort of proof that the FGC isn't consistent. I never asked for those games to be part of it. Take that up with Mr. Wizard.
  • stormsasukestormsasuke Joined: Posts: 19
    TL;DR We should change fighting games into something else which results in fighting game players hating the game. They spread negativity everywhere. Dad's who used to play SF2 on the arcades see the new SF game for sale and wants to experience nostalgia. Then they realize SF is nothing like the SF that they played and instead it is a third person hadoken shooter so he doesn't buy it. Casuals see an SF game and expect and SF game but they get this weird game. Who would be happy if we change what we have into something it is not?
  • VIVITVIVIT We Can Do It! Joined: Posts: 23
    Fighting games aren't dying. The notion that a genre is dying if it doesn't have a steady stream of newbies coming in is stupid. Sure, fighting games are less popular than they once were, but that doesn't mean they're dying. It just means that they're less popular than they once were. The hardcore FG community isn't going anywhere, and as long as it exists, developers will be making games that cater to that crowd. Maybe not big AAA developers, but barring stuff made by the arcade giants Capcom and Namco, have fighting games ever been AAA? More importantly, do fighting games now and did fighting games ever suffer because of a lack of AAA attention?

    People who say fighting games are dying don't know what it's like to play a dead genre. Take a look at roguelikes -- traditional ones, not any of this Rogue Legacy, FTL, indie fadmeme bullshit.
    3Dml6Qp.png

    Playing roguelikes in 2017 is something of a lonely experience. Usenet, once the biggest hub for roguelike players (and remaining so after other game communities had moved to the web) is long dead. The differences in philosophy between modern mainstream games and classical roguelikes are far starker than the differences in design between modern mainstream games and fighting games, in part due to their differing origin: both fighting games and modern action games trace their lineage to arcades, while roguelikes originated on mainframe networks on university campuses. New things from the roguelike scene come out and get attention occasionally (DoomRL, Cogmind, etc) but are usually a very different experience from the classics, in much more significant ways than the difference between SFII and SFV. The immensely complicated and esoteric design and the unique depth emergent from it is largely gone, boiled away to leave only the simplest core elements of the roguelike, which are then built upon with console, arcade, and PC sensibilities.

    With all that in mind, can you really say that fighting games are dying? I sure can't.
    NickRocks wrote: »
    holy fuck i want to beat you up and stuff you in a locker so bad
  • S00perCamS00perCam Cold as ice Joined: Posts: 2,347
    Nigga go play Pokemon super mystery dungeon and tell me rouge likes are dying. That shit dank AF.
    Just because your buff, don't play tuff Cause I'll reverse the earth and turn your flesh back to dust
  • VIVITVIVIT We Can Do It! Joined: Posts: 23
    edited February 15
    REEE wheres muh permadeath

    You're not wrong though, PMSD is pretty neat. But it, along with most other Mystery Dungeon games, are also a significant step away from the traditional roguelike formula, although it's a step away from the formula in a different direction from western indie rogue-like-like-likes, adding elements from non-roguelike JPRGs rather than action games or platformers. The state of modern roguelikes would be like if the majority of modern fighting game developers decided to turn their games into sidescrolling brawlers with fighting game controls plus a manual turnaround buttons a la Guilty Gear Isuka, or if they decided to remove all (superficial) execution barriers the way Chinga proposes the OP, replacing special motions with hotkeys and cooldowns a la Rising Thunder, or if they decided to try to turn them into RPGs a la Revengers of Vengeance.

    EDIT: Also, the roguelike community now is several times more smaller than it was twenty years ago than the fighting game community is smaller now that it was twenty years ago.
    Post edited by VIVIT on
    NickRocks wrote: »
    holy fuck i want to beat you up and stuff you in a locker so bad
  • BOOMYBOOMY Joined: Posts: 2
    FPS and MOBA games are just as unforgiving and brutal to new players; in both skill and execution. Try playing quake or counter strike against someone who can do weapon combos and shoot with perfect aim; you wont be able to push buttons without dying to put it in street fighter terms. The same grind of getting owned until you just learn to overcome it occurs. Any thing (game or otherwise) that has a high level of competitive play will have a learning curve. Competitive play; the ability to better than someone; is reliant on a learning curve to exist.


  • S00perCamS00perCam Cold as ice Joined: Posts: 2,347
    BOOMY wrote: »
    FPS and MOBA games are just as unforgiving and brutal to new players; in both skill and execution. Try playing quake or counter strike against someone who can do weapon combos and shoot with perfect aim; you wont be able to push buttons without dying to put it in street fighter terms. The same grind of getting owned until you just learn to overcome it occurs. Any thing (game or otherwise) that has a high level of competitive play will have a learning curve. Competitive play; the ability to better than someone; is reliant on a learning curve to exist.

    Quake is dead and Counter Strike happens to be the modern day mother of esports and happened to strike gold and build a consistent flow of a playerbase over 20 years. Newer games like Halo, Gears, COD have things like co op campaign and horde mode, zombies somewhat easy/ user friendly mechanics Overwatch especially has the easy mechanics in spades.

    Your right on a competitive front nothing will ever circumvent hard work. The issue is that there really isn't a curve in fighting games its a plateau, there's nothing to ease you into it other than getting your ass beat. Repeatedly. There hasn't even been a decent laddering system or anykind of ingame recognition online of different playstyles or skillsets except for tekken tag 2 and tekken net died after like a year. Once you start hitting walls there's no other option but to take the L's which is great for guys like me and you but its bad customer service.

    Games are a product good customer service is all about making it easy.
    Just because your buff, don't play tuff Cause I'll reverse the earth and turn your flesh back to dust
  • crotchpunchacrotchpuncha Joined: Posts: 19,930
    edited February 20
    The fact those kinds of systems continue to die for fighting games tells me they don't make much of an impact with the casual audience. VF4 had an amazing training mode and laddering system and that games still dead as fuck anywhere but Japan and you just said yourself Tekken Net died after only a year.
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  • S00perCamS00perCam Cold as ice Joined: Posts: 2,347
    Your absolutely right which is why my primary point when it comes to increasing fighting game playerbase is more alternative game modes and easier controls idk how many hours ive spent watching someone fail at the qcf motion trying to learn and say fuck the game altogether
    Just because your buff, don't play tuff Cause I'll reverse the earth and turn your flesh back to dust
  • Raging_ZoroarkRaging_Zoroark Disgraceful! Joined: Posts: 1,291
    S00perCam wrote: »
    Your absolutely right which is why my primary point when it comes to increasing fighting game playerbase is more alternative game modes and easier controls idk how many hours ive spent watching someone fail at the qcf motion trying to learn and say fuck the game altogether

    Rising Thunder got rid of all the classic motions and the online was dead few weeks after its launch, despite being a free game, and the amout of scrubquotes that came from that game was tremendous. What most casual players, begginers and scrubs fail to understand is that motions and combos are the easy part of the fighting games. Fundamentals, but more specifically, spacing are the real reson they lose so much. You can facilitate the controls all you want, but in the end the result will be the same (the guy will say fuck the game altogether).

    Facilitating the controls can be more harmful than good, but adding a "stylish mode" can help new players without harming the playerbase (but for some reason that's not enough for the OP).

    But I completely agree on the alternative game modes part.

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  • S00perCamS00perCam Cold as ice Joined: Posts: 2,347
    Rising thunder had a multitude of issues that weren't control related that killed that game. It had all the worst parts of SF4 mixed with really dumb balancing decisions it animated like doo doo and really shouldn't have went into beta as early as it did, it was definitely alpha, not to mention Riot bought it out to kill it pretty much. It was a bad game.

    A good example of a game with simple controls would be smash never more than 2 simultaneous button presses to do anything that isn't considered an AT even if you put something like a spaceship emissary in Marvel it wouldn't be as fun to play having to play it with traditional SF controls.
    Just because your buff, don't play tuff Cause I'll reverse the earth and turn your flesh back to dust
  • Raging_ZoroarkRaging_Zoroark Disgraceful! Joined: Posts: 1,291
    S00perCam wrote: »
    Rising thunder had a multitude of issues that weren't control related that killed that game. It had all the worst parts of SF4 mixed with really dumb balancing decisions it animated like doo doo and really shouldn't have went into beta as early as it did, it was definitely alpha, not to mention Riot bought it out to kill it pretty much. It was a bad game.

    Yep, but a lot of people also left because they couldn't win matches online because they lacked fundamentals to do so. There is a famous video of someone quitting the game after losing to zoning (I believe someone posted in this very thread). I don't think that the controls killed the game, my point is that you can facilitate motions all you want, people will get frustated and quit regardless.
    S00perCam wrote: »
    A good example of a game with simple controls would be smash never more than 2 simultaneous button presses to do anything that isn't considered an AT even if you put something like a spaceship emissary in Marvel it wouldn't be as fun to play having to play it with traditional SF controls.

    Melee is actually a very execution heavy game. You literally die in few seconds if you don't know how to move properly. Smash 4 is much simpler and the game resets to neutral way too often IMO, but the game still manages to be fun. Smash deepness lies in other areas. The games somewhat compensates for the simpler controls by having a completely different neutral game. I don't see smash control scheme being sucessfuly being incorporated in a tradicional fighter, but maybe that's just me.
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  • PerthoPertho The Runed One Joined: Posts: 21,067 mod
    Smash has easy controls?

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    jimmy1200 wrote: »
    pertho attacked me first, saying i get all my life tips from 106th and park.
  • Ryujin_OsaiRyujin_Osai leggo Joined: Posts: 303
    doesn't matter how how simplistic you make a game,if people don't learn the fundamentals there almost always gonna lose to the people that do.adding a bunch of modes to distract them from that won't change anything.unless they have a comprehensive tutorial and the individual is ready and willing to learn
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  • flighflighflugitflighflighflugit Joined: Posts: 849
    Smash and pokken are not popular because of simple controls, it's because it has Pokémon and other known Nintendo characters in them lol.

    Melee is probably one of the most execution heavy games out there.
  • p.m novaroad pilotp.m novaroad pilot Joined: Posts: 2,410
    yeah even when you are getting hit you have to execute the proper di
  • S00perCamS00perCam Cold as ice Joined: Posts: 2,347
    This conversation is so difficult to have here because the community just plain refuses to see it through any other lens.

    Let me fix this for you
    Melee CAN BE one of the most execution heavy games out there.


    We aren't talking about the skill ceiling here no one wants a lower skill ceiling we are talking about the barrier of entry and intuitiveness.

    You want to throw a fireball in Street Fighter with Ryu press 236+P in that order within an 8frame window 2 frame leniency on how far apart each button press is (I might not be exact but its something like this) its a very specific timing and rhythm for something that is a marquee technique.

    You want to throw a fireball with Mario in Smash you press B
    Just because your buff, don't play tuff Cause I'll reverse the earth and turn your flesh back to dust
  • VIVITVIVIT We Can Do It! Joined: Posts: 23
    I think part of the reason people here don't like the idea of simplifying execution too much is because difficult execution can be satisfying. Think of the thumbfeel of the wall jump in Mario 64 vs in later Mario games. In Galaxy they made it like Mega Man X's wall jump, but with single-wall jumping removed, and made generally less fun. Or how good it feels to use the more advanced traversal techniques in Super Metroid. There's nothing quite like doing your first speed-boosted machball.
    NickRocks wrote: »
    holy fuck i want to beat you up and stuff you in a locker so bad
  • flighflighflugitflighflighflugit Joined: Posts: 849
    edited February 26
    S00perCam wrote: »
    This conversation is so difficult to have here because the community just plain refuses to see it through any other lens.

    Let me fix this for you
    Melee CAN BE one of the most execution heavy games out there.


    We aren't talking about the skill ceiling here no one wants a lower skill ceiling we are talking about the barrier of entry and intuitiveness.

    You want to throw a fireball in Street Fighter with Ryu press 236+P in that order within an 8frame window 2 frame leniency on how far apart each button press is (I might not be exact but its something like this) its a very specific timing and rhythm for something that is a marquee technique.

    You want to throw a fireball with Mario in Smash you press B

    I dunno, I don't think that's true. In blazblue nu can cover the screen in projectiles at the press of a button. Pa4u even went further with not only some specials being button presses, but also having auto combos that even lead into a super. Yet, guilty gear is still the most popular Arcsys game out there even with persona having its name behind it.

    Most people that want fighting games extremely simplified are people that will end up quitting the game in a week anyway.
    Post edited by flighflighflugit on
  • Evolution169Evolution169 Wake up DP is unbeatable Joined: Posts: 1,002
    Easier inputs simply do not give a fighting game mass appeal. SC and Tekken have easy inputs and are button masher friendly, and yet they don't have great mass appeal. I doubt T7 will even sell as well as MKX.

    Smash doesn't sell more because it's easier to pick up and play. That is a part of it, but not even the biggest factor. It has lots of recognizable characters, 4 player modes, incredibly flashy and dynamic stages, and random item drops. Now Capcom could try to add that stuff to a fighting game like MvC:I. but that would just be shoe horned in for the sake of casual appeal. Smash was made from the ground up for that, and the competitive modes came after. And while it's great that the Smash community was able to make the game competitive, it's not some rule that every fighter can have both.
  • Duck StrongDuck Strong Yin to all Yang Joined: Posts: 7,781
    edited February 27
    Pertho wrote: »
    Sometimes it feels like the people who have played the least amount of games are the ones asking for more shake ups.

    Also lol overwatch. Overwatch changed the game by adding cosplay to TF2.

    And making it infinitely shittier.

    Also, the idea that a genre needs to be supplanted to appeal to people who never really understood it/gave it a chance to begin with is utterly idiotic.

    Next let's do away with books because they're hard and not enough like twitter.

    No need to force change on things other people already enjoy, just because you can't appreciate them.

    As other people have mentioned there are options for everyone out there.
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  • RoboticRobotic Joined: Posts: 2,600
    edited February 27
    The Overwatch competitive scene has been more-or-less dead on arrival, right? I understand Blizzard is still funding events for it, but they do that for all of their games. Correct me if I'm wrong, I genuinely have no clue, I've just seen zero hype for competitive Overwatch.
  • crotchpunchacrotchpuncha Joined: Posts: 19,930
    No Overwatch has a very healthy competetive scene.
    It's not the end of the world, but you can see it from here.
  • Monster637Monster637 Rage Trigger Joined: Posts: 1,207
    edited March 12
    In the arcades in the early 90z i could not do a shoryuken to save my life but instead learned charge chars and later helped when sf2 was released on snes (pads)..i think new games are over littered with subsystems on top of subsystems...that deter most new players.

    Also i own a shit load of real guns so fps are real boring to me..plus cod has flying lol

    Go buy you a decent Assault rifles and some hand guns..you be way over your cod fetish
    Post edited by Monster637 on
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  • Monster637Monster637 Rage Trigger Joined: Posts: 1,207
    edited March 12
    P.s new gen get blown up once on online they give up after a bad day.. Had kof 14 dl since day one finally got to play i was destroyed online.but i enjoyed it. Cod fps overwatch instant even if you suck get a kill...fighting games day 1 hardcores leave noobs bleeding online ..broken hearted.
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  • Will_DieselWill_Diesel Noble Savage of the inner city's darkest quarters. Joined: Posts: 1,139
    Greenwood wrote: »
    Greenwood wrote: »
    why fighting games lost their top-tier popularity over the years?

    In what universe did fighting games have top-tier popularity?

    early 90's? where have you been?

    Oh, you mean 1992 and 1993. 2 years FGs have been top tier. Whoopdie fucking do.

    That's not what the OP is talking about. "Why FGs have lost their top-tier popularity over the years" implies that FGs were king for a long period of time and gradually declined. They were king for 2 years, about 25 years ago.
    BB_Hoody wrote: »
    There was a time in the early to mid 90's where fighting games were running shit like FPS games are today.

    It was just 2 years. By the mid-90's, they were "popular", not top-tier. I was there, trust me.

    The downfall of arcades started around the time SF came out. This is because SNES and GEN were able to create capable ports to popular arcade games. When PS came out in 1994-1995, arcades became obsolete. At that time, FGs were a middling genre.

    Last time I frequented an arcade, a few people were huddled around UMK3 while CotA, VF, KI, and MSH were completely ignored. That's not "running shit like an FPS" in my book.

    This is completely off putting not to mention wrong. For the longest time there was no genre with more anticipated games that 1 vs 1 fighters. Buy a damned clue.
    Liberalism is a mental disease.
  • Evolution169Evolution169 Wake up DP is unbeatable Joined: Posts: 1,002
    Monster637 wrote: »
    Also i own a shit load of real guns so fps are real boring to me..plus cod has flying lol

    Go buy you a decent Assault rifles and some hand guns..you be way over your cod fetish
    COD isn't a gun simulator though. You don't get the same thing out of COD that you get out of shooting a gun. I don't think many people buy COD because of the guns.
    Monster637 wrote: »
    P.s new gen get blown up once on online they give up after a bad day.. Had kof 14 dl since day one finally got to play i was destroyed online.but i enjoyed it. Cod fps overwatch instant even if you suck get a kill...fighting games day 1 hardcores leave noobs bleeding online ..broken hearted.
    That's not necessarily the case if a fighter has a lot of people buying it to play online. If you have enough low to intermediate skill players online, then they can play each other. SFV could have done this right with the matchmaking system, but they released the game in an unfinished state with a shitty netcode and unreliable matchmaking, and that drove a lot of people away. KI might have been able to do that as well, but it was an Xbone exclusive for years, which seriously limited the player base. MKX could have done it, but the online experience was just garbage at release. I don't think games like KOF and GG have the kind of mass appeal that those games have.
  • S00perCamS00perCam Cold as ice Joined: Posts: 2,347
    Greenwood wrote: »
    Greenwood wrote: »
    why fighting games lost their top-tier popularity over the years?

    In what universe did fighting games have top-tier popularity?

    early 90's? where have you been?

    Oh, you mean 1992 and 1993. 2 years FGs have been top tier. Whoopdie fucking do.

    That's not what the OP is talking about. "Why FGs have lost their top-tier popularity over the years" implies that FGs were king for a long period of time and gradually declined. They were king for 2 years, about 25 years ago.
    BB_Hoody wrote: »
    There was a time in the early to mid 90's where fighting games were running shit like FPS games are today.

    It was just 2 years. By the mid-90's, they were "popular", not top-tier. I was there, trust me.

    The downfall of arcades started around the time SF came out. This is because SNES and GEN were able to create capable ports to popular arcade games. When PS came out in 1994-1995, arcades became obsolete. At that time, FGs were a middling genre.

    Last time I frequented an arcade, a few people were huddled around UMK3 while CotA, VF, KI, and MSH were completely ignored. That's not "running shit like an FPS" in my book.

    This is completely off putting not to mention wrong. For the longest time there was no genre with more anticipated games that 1 vs 1 fighters. Buy a damned clue.

    There was a time when I could get a soda for a nickel, and we had to walk 6 miles to and from school.
    Just because your buff, don't play tuff Cause I'll reverse the earth and turn your flesh back to dust
  • Will_DieselWill_Diesel Noble Savage of the inner city's darkest quarters. Joined: Posts: 1,139
    S00perCam wrote: »
    Greenwood wrote: »
    Greenwood wrote: »
    why fighting games lost their top-tier popularity over the years?

    In what universe did fighting games have top-tier popularity?

    early 90's? where have you been?

    Oh, you mean 1992 and 1993. 2 years FGs have been top tier. Whoopdie fucking do.

    That's not what the OP is talking about. "Why FGs have lost their top-tier popularity over the years" implies that FGs were king for a long period of time and gradually declined. They were king for 2 years, about 25 years ago.
    BB_Hoody wrote: »
    There was a time in the early to mid 90's where fighting games were running shit like FPS games are today.

    It was just 2 years. By the mid-90's, they were "popular", not top-tier. I was there, trust me.

    The downfall of arcades started around the time SF came out. This is because SNES and GEN were able to create capable ports to popular arcade games. When PS came out in 1994-1995, arcades became obsolete. At that time, FGs were a middling genre.

    Last time I frequented an arcade, a few people were huddled around UMK3 while CotA, VF, KI, and MSH were completely ignored. That's not "running shit like an FPS" in my book.

    This is completely off putting not to mention wrong. For the longest time there was no genre with more anticipated games that 1 vs 1 fighters. Buy a damned clue.

    There was a time when I could get a soda for a nickel, and we had to walk 6 miles to and from school.

    Cool you should invest in time travel. What that post indicated is that fighting games only had two good years of success. You would have been in diapers at that time to think this or just really enjoy being a contrarian.
    Liberalism is a mental disease.
  • S00perCamS00perCam Cold as ice Joined: Posts: 2,347
    edited March 13
    You should invest in a pair of nuts.
    Just because your buff, don't play tuff Cause I'll reverse the earth and turn your flesh back to dust
  • YorKeYYorKeY Top tier poster Joined: Posts: 5,743
    edited March 13
    no one (casuals) plays fighting games because fighting games are too easy.
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