The death of fighting games… A personal journey that hopefully can help MvC:I ???

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  • NuSix3NuSix3 Britney's Dancebeat Champ Joined: Posts: 19
    Great post. I've been thinking about this very thing a lot recently and it just hit me after reading your post:

    The problem isn't so much difficulty accessibility (there are instances where I think it can be a problem, but overall it's not the issue). The problem is the digital age has made us aware of how inferior our current skills are. Long story to elaborate on this:

    When I started playing Tekken Tag back in the day, it was just me and some friends of mine messing around. All of us terrible. I got sick of losing, so I went into training mode and practiced until I knew the move sets (which are huge in tekken) for my favorite characters by heart. I was still terrible, but not as terrible as everyone else. Then they practiced and got better, then I practiced and got better...and so on.

    Years later, I don't have any friends who play Tekken other than me. I still bought tekken 4 and tekken 5 and the habit of practicing never left me. When Tekken 5 came out, I was doing Xiaoyu BnB combos without even knowing they were BnBs (or what a BnB even was). I even invented my own notation so I could write the shit down and come up with new stuff (for what purpose, I have no idea - it was fun at the time). When I did finally start to research on the internet, I was able to perform almost any combination anyone else came up with (sans some really technical stuff, like foxstep, instant while rising 2s...etc).

    Working at a video game store at the time, I would get into discussions with people who bought tekken or talked about it - and eventually I met a couple guys who dabbled in competitive play, made friends, and got my ass royally handed to me by them. Then I practiced what they showed me in in a short bit of time (about a month), just from playing them once or twice a week and practicing on my own time, I got hella better. By the time DR came out for PS3, I was at a level where I only need to make a few adjustments to hold my own. By the time 6 came out, I was beating them as often as they were beating me.

    The point is if I had met those guys in the tekken tag days where I didn't even know my character's entire movelist, I would have been so overwhelmed by everything they were telling me that I wouldn't know where to start to learn. These days with the internet and online play being the standard, you are comparing yourself to, literally, the entire world and it pushes you to force progress rather than learn at your own comfortable pace.

    It has little to do with how hard the game is and more to do with how aware you are of the top level.

    Instead of making games easier fighting game companies should be working on single player modes that make learning everything, from the very basics to the more complicates stuff, fun. They don't do that though. Instead they push the online modes when really, it's better to wait before testing yourself against the competition.
  • LordxMugenLordxMugen FIGHTAN GAHMS!!! Joined: Posts: 552
    I just think the problem is that theres entirely too much of a divide in strategy vs execution in fighters. its the same in any RTS that plays like SC. SC is a good game and all, but it still comes down to alot of Real Time, versus alot of Strategy. I think thats why a certain number of people gravitated a bit toward games like Command and Conquer and its ilk. That game still valued micro to an extent, but an overall big picture strategy and endgame was what would ultimately win you the day. I think striking a balance between the two in fighting games is overall what people really want. A game that also makes you feel good for pressing buttons and doesnt objectively hate you for trying to play it (looking at you SFV...) also helps. It also doesnt help that theres alot of "hidden information", like frames and hit boxes, are hardly ever fully explained and why they are important and what it means to the player. ALOT of that shit needs to be IN THE GAME right at the start so that casual players can at least understand why certain moves work and others don't. Cause taken as a simple rule of logic, many plain concepts we use (invincibility frames, armor, frame traps) come out as flat out retarded when spoken or shown to someone else. But at the very least, having characters and their abilities fully shown and explained IN DETAIL at least gives newer players something to work with and understand. Basically, I want more stuff like what Arcsys does for some of their games and what KI and Skullgirls does. And maybe take some lessons from Rising Thunder and what it tried to do to bridge the gap between character strategy and execution skill.

    *silently waits for Darkstalkers 4*
  • VoodinVoodin Joined: Posts: 6
    haha..
    "No frame-perfect people allowed"

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  • RLAAMJR.RLAAMJR. Test Joined: Posts: 798
    In this generation, its going to be tough to make the fgc get bigger because of technology. More pc games (good thing fighting games will be available on pc too) and most especially a lot of games for you to download on yyour cellphone which is easier to get, bring it with you and cheaper and there are a lot of free cellphone games too.

    So its not really about amking the fighting games better.
    "You should have not tangled with nature!" - Storm, X-men vs Street Fighter

    Favorite Street Fighter Character: Ingrid
    Favorite Tekken Character: Lili
    Favorite Marvel vs Capcom Character: Ororo Munroe aka Storm
    Favorite Mortal Kombat character: Reptile
    Favorite Darkstalkers character: Bulleta/B.B. Hood


  • RLAAMJR.RLAAMJR. Test Joined: Posts: 798
    So maybe make fighting games available for download on cellphones too.
    "You should have not tangled with nature!" - Storm, X-men vs Street Fighter

    Favorite Street Fighter Character: Ingrid
    Favorite Tekken Character: Lili
    Favorite Marvel vs Capcom Character: Ororo Munroe aka Storm
    Favorite Mortal Kombat character: Reptile
    Favorite Darkstalkers character: Bulleta/B.B. Hood


  • GreenwoodGreenwood Earth, the only true God Joined: Posts: 888
    why fighting games lost their top-tier popularity over the years?

    In what universe did fighting games have top-tier popularity?

    Injustice 2 - Wonder Woman, Joker
    Boring, stale, predictable FGs - Cammy, Kuma, whatever yawn zzzzz
  • eyekantspeleeyekantspele Joined: Posts: 50
    Greenwood wrote: »
    why fighting games lost their top-tier popularity over the years?

    In what universe did fighting games have top-tier popularity?

    early 90's? where have you been?
  • RLAAMJR.RLAAMJR. Test Joined: Posts: 798
    When there wasn tinternet not android phones,
    "You should have not tangled with nature!" - Storm, X-men vs Street Fighter

    Favorite Street Fighter Character: Ingrid
    Favorite Tekken Character: Lili
    Favorite Marvel vs Capcom Character: Ororo Munroe aka Storm
    Favorite Mortal Kombat character: Reptile
    Favorite Darkstalkers character: Bulleta/B.B. Hood


  • pootnanniespootnannies mr. negative Joined: Posts: 3,141
    BB_Hoody wrote: »
    Greenwood wrote: »
    why fighting games lost their top-tier popularity over the years?

    In what universe did fighting games have top-tier popularity?

    Uh.....Street Fighter and Mortal Kombat didn't become household names all of a sudden like. There was a time in the early to mid 90's where fighting games were running shit like FPS games are today.

    are you being sarcastic?


    “... keep an open mind, but not so open your brains fall out.”

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  • RLAAMJR.RLAAMJR. Test Joined: Posts: 798
    The fgc will never disappear and if mvci will continu to add mor and more dlc characters, the fgc will be biggerv
    "You should have not tangled with nature!" - Storm, X-men vs Street Fighter

    Favorite Street Fighter Character: Ingrid
    Favorite Tekken Character: Lili
    Favorite Marvel vs Capcom Character: Ororo Munroe aka Storm
    Favorite Mortal Kombat character: Reptile
    Favorite Darkstalkers character: Bulleta/B.B. Hood


  • DarksakulDarksakul Your lack of faith disturbs me Joined: Posts: 23,367
    People are showing their age (or lack of it, damn youngsters) being surprised that Street Fighter II was the king of Arcades.

    In the early 90s every kid knew about street fighter and ether played in in the arcades or had the game for the SNES, Genesis or even their Turbo Grafix 16
    There were even Amiga, Commodore 64 and DOS versions of the game.
    “Strong people don't put others down... They lift them up.”
    - Darth Vader, Philanthropist
  • pootnanniespootnannies mr. negative Joined: Posts: 3,141
    BB_Hoody wrote: »
    Greenwood wrote: »
    why fighting games lost their top-tier popularity over the years?

    In what universe did fighting games have top-tier popularity?

    Uh.....Street Fighter and Mortal Kombat are household names that transcend gaming for a reason. There was a time in the early to mid 90's where fighting games were running shit like FPS games are today.

    lol ok you edited it because something didn't sound right. sf2 was everywhere in the early 90's. i couldn't afford it for snes so i rented it all the time. same with mk and ki ooh and Primal Rage lol (those were the days!)


    “... keep an open mind, but not so open your brains fall out.”

    psn: pootnannies
    ggpo: whodat?
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  • TKRTKR Inventor of Toe Socks Joined: Posts: 210
    Snap, oh snaaaaap.

    Primal Rage was trash. Animation was jut. Audio was disgusting and there was what, 5 characters. But I could not stop playing that game.
    Haha. I found a PC version in some bargain bin many years after it was taken out of the arcades. And even then I couldn't stop playing. Frozen Monkey farts for the win. And the little cheering people were funny AF.

    Definitely finding a copy of that when I can.

    PS: OP, you still reading.
  • Evolution169Evolution169 Wake up DP is unbeatable Joined: Posts: 1,063
    BB_Hoody wrote: »
    Greenwood wrote: »
    why fighting games lost their top-tier popularity over the years?

    In what universe did fighting games have top-tier popularity?

    Uh.....Street Fighter and Mortal Kombat are household names that transcend gaming for a reason. There was a time in the early to mid 90's where fighting games were running shit like FPS games are today.

    lol ok you edited it because something didn't sound right. sf2 was everywhere in the early 90's. i couldn't afford it for snes so i rented it all the time. same with mk and ki ooh and Primal Rage lol (those were the days!)

    I forgot about KI. That was actually the pack-in SNES game for a while. That's how popular fighters were back then.
  • NickRocksNickRocks DeathPlay Joined: Posts: 22,738
    stop bumping this thread
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  • TebboTebbo Play. Joined: Posts: 5,703
    ~*Fuck You*~
    Play more.
  • Core SeriesCore Series My work is done here. Joined: Posts: 614
    edited June 24
    This message has been deleted.
    Post edited by Core Series on
  • Bomber678Bomber678 Joined: Posts: 4
    I've long been wondering about all this myself, and I agree with OP.
    There is a serious lack of appeal to the masses in fighting games because "the execution is too hard".
    And well, it kinda is. I would consider myself a casual, but I'm super interested in fighting games. I like to watch them a lot, I enjoy the feeling of playing them and the victory rush, and pulling off cool combos consistently, and reading my opponent.

    The only problem... it's so damn hard and takes so much practice. I'm always worse than anyone who actually puts time into the game. And I don't put as much time in because... training mode is boring. I like to learn by playing.

    It happens with a lot of my friends. I'd love to play fighting games with them. but either they're better than me by a lot, or they can't even do quarter-circles.
    I know this is partially my fault for not grinding hard and "gitting gud", but really, I don't want to have to. I'll just go play Overwatch so I can play with my friends.


    Now it's time for <obligatory plug>.
    You guys have probably heard of the infamous David Sirlin. Yeah, "Low Strong".
    But he's developing a fighting game that is based on the concept that hey, hard motions and execution isn't required.
    It's called Fantasy Strike. Here's the link: http://www.fantasystrike.com/

    I'll be honest with you guys, I like it. It's easy to teach, and it's what Rising Thunder could've been: simple.
  • Raging_ZoroarkRaging_Zoroark Disgraceful! Joined: Posts: 1,426
    Training mode isn't that bad. It may be a bit boring at the beginning, but once your execution starts getting better, pulling out combos becomes very satisfying. Sometimes I boot the game just for training for like an hour and closes it right after. Just put your favorite soundtrack while you practice and the times just flies.
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  • CyberPhoenix0252CyberPhoenix0252 Joined: Posts: 498
    edited December 2016
    Bomber678 wrote: »
    Now it's time for <obligatory plug>.
    You guys have probably heard of the infamous David Sirlin. Yeah, "Low Strong".
    But he's developing a fighting game that is based on the concept that hey, hard motions and execution isn't required.
    It's called Fantasy Strike. Here's the link: http://www.fantasystrike.com/

    I'll be honest with you guys, I like it. It's easy to teach, and it's what Rising Thunder could've been: simple.

    This is the sort of problem I have with trying to make FGs simple by getting rid of motions and simplifying execution. I feel like it isn't going to help anyone.

    The better players are still going find the best characters, the most optimal combos, approaches, ways to zone etc and shit on any casual player of the game; which will ultimately lead to the casual players, the people who started playing under the impression of the game being simple, leaving the game and not putting time into it, meaning the game may as well end up being DoA.

    The worst part is that when games try to simplify or dumb down the game for the sake of the casual player, any advanced tech that one may need to put time into to perform in other games will have been made much more easier for the advanced player to do themselves. And if players are able to perform all this advanced tech earlier and faster than the casual player, who gets shit on by said players, they will stop playing the game.

    Like I said in my previous post, ultimately, simplifying motions and execution isn't going to be the end all be all of reeling in your average casual player, especially when they leave because they hate the feeling of being shit on and having only themselves to blame.
    Rip sig.
  • BB_HoodyBB_Hoody Nice plane you have there. Be a Shame if something went wrong in flight and it crashed Joined: Posts: 4,909
    Bomber678 wrote: »
    Now it's time for <obligatory plug>.
    You guys have probably heard of the infamous David Sirlin. Yeah, "Low Strong".
    But he's developing a fighting game that is based on the concept that hey, hard motions and execution isn't required.
    It's called Fantasy Strike. Here's the link: http://www.fantasystrike.com/

    I'll be honest with you guys, I like it. It's easy to teach, and it's what Rising Thunder could've been: simple.

    This is the sort of problem I have with trying to make FGs simple by getting rid of motions and simplifying execution. I feel like it isn't going to help anyone.

    The better players are still going find the best characters, the most optimal combos, approaches, ways to zone etc and shit on any casual player of the game; which will ultimately lead to the casual players, the people who started playing under the impression of the game being simple, leaving the game and not putting time into it, meaning the game may as well end up being DoA.

    The worst part is that when games try to simplify or dumb down the game for the sake of the casual player, any advanced tech that one may need to put time into to perform in other games will have been made much more easier for the advanced player to do themselves. And if players are able to perform all this advanced tech earlier and faster than the casual player, who gets shit on by said players, they will stop playing the game.

    Like I said in my previous post, ultimately, simplifying motions and execution isn't going to be the end all be all of reeling in your average casual player, especially when they leave because they hate the feeling of being shit on and having only themselves to blame.

    This. The hey to getting the casual market is two things in my opinion. Either provide plenty of single player content that isn't just 1v1 fighting. Like Mortal Kombat did. Or make a game where the skill gap between good and noob players is small. I.E Compare Overwatch to COD. There is no ammo management. You just spray for days. Hit boxes are much larger for characters so your aim doesn't have to be that good. Don't have to go on killstreaks to earn game changing abiltities. Time to kill is way longer so there is plenty of room for error. etc. That's not to say Overwatch takes no skill. Of course I wouldn't say that. But the barrier for entry is much lower if not the lowest for any FPS. Not just because it's more simple, but because the skill gap between players is much smaller due to how the game is designed. It wont take long at all before you understand the game and are on par or near the level of average compotent players.

    That IMO is where fighting games have a hard time attracting casuals. You can simplify a fighter's execution all you want. But as long as that glaring skill gap exist, where the casual has to practice how to counter something specific, practice a punish, learn to whiff punish, spacing etc. Those fundamentals that seperate the noob, the average player and the good player. It will turn people off. Hell look at DiveKick. 2 buttons. That's it, and yet you still have higher level players completely stomping newer players and making them rage.
    '
  • ukyo_rulzukyo_rulz Joined: Posts: 4,483
    The key to making a game with mass appeal, IMHO, is simple:
    1. Figure out what the players want to do
    2. Reward them for doing it

    That's it. Players first pick up an FPS because they want to shoot enemies. FPS players are rewarded for shooting enemies. They get better at it because they do it all the time. For some reason fighting games are frequently designed to counter-intuitively reward doing what a lot of players don't want to do. Until this changes the FGC will be made up of people who like training mode or memorizing frame data or just like a high-pressure winner-take-all competitive environment. Not that there's anything wrong with that, of course.
    "Being degrading or insulting is not the same as being hype." - Mike Z
  • Evolution169Evolution169 Wake up DP is unbeatable Joined: Posts: 1,063
    ukyo_rulz wrote: »
    The key to making a game with mass appeal, IMHO, is simple:
    1. Figure out what the players want to do
    2. Reward them for doing it

    That's it. Players first pick up an FPS because they want to shoot enemies. FPS players are rewarded for shooting enemies. They get better at it because they do it all the time. For some reason fighting games are frequently designed to counter-intuitively reward doing what a lot of players don't want to do. Until this changes the FGC will be made up of people who like training mode or memorizing frame data or just like a high-pressure winner-take-all competitive environment. Not that there's anything wrong with that, of course.

    Fighters being 1v1 is where the difference is. Try going 1v1 against someone in a shooter when you've never played a shooter before and they have months to years of experience. You'll be lucky to get any kills. That's why 1v1 modes in shooters tend to struggle, or not even exist at all. The only ones I can think of that ever had a strong 1v1 community were games like Quake and UT, and those aren't even doing as well as fighters these days.
  • ukyo_rulzukyo_rulz Joined: Posts: 4,483
    Try going 1v1 against someone in a shooter when you've never played a shooter before and they have months to years of experience. You'll be lucky to get any kills. That's why 1v1 modes in shooters tend to struggle, or not even exist at all. The only ones I can think of that ever had a strong 1v1 community were games like Quake and UT, and those aren't even doing as well as fighters these days.

    I played 1v1 against a competitive Quake player for months back in college. Went from an easy 10-0 for him, to a hard-won 10-0 for him, to the point where I could usually get it to 6-4 in his favor and even 3-7 in my favor when I got lucky. At no point in time did I ever do anything other than actually play Quake. There wasn't a separate "intro to Quake" mode that I had to grind in for weeks or months. Just playing was enough.

    That is the difference.
    "Being degrading or insulting is not the same as being hype." - Mike Z
  • MuttonmanMuttonman Joined: Posts: 2,856
    Man, this topic can't decide what it wants to be. Is it sell more copies? Then have a reasonably sharp story mode and other single player stuff. Do you want to convert people into PvP players? That's another issue. Do you want to actually bring them into the FGC? That's even harder.

    To get people interested in PvP two big boxes checked: make what I call (there isn't a really good industry term for it) the "time to mediocrity" as low as possible and have really good matchmaking. Nothing gets a player to quit faster than a bad losing streak. If you can't make it so that your newbies are paired up you're going to bleed players. As for the time to mediocrity, it's how long it takes a player to feel like they, at some level, understand the system and can work in it to assert their will on the game. "Oh, if I practiced 24/7 I too could be Daigo" their thought process goes, noting that they "have a life" instead. It's where they feel like all the options are open to them and it's just a matter of getting better tactics wise. I actually think that SFV did this part reasonably well, just dropped the soap on everything else.

    Getting people into the FGC proper means dropping the "they'll lose until they like it" mentality and actually going easy on newbies as mentor figures. That's not something I see happening soon, as vets tend to pride themselves on weeding out anyone who doesn't like to get their ass whooped for a whole session then wonder why nobody is coming back.
  • ukyo_rulzukyo_rulz Joined: Posts: 4,483
    Muttonman wrote: »
    Do you want to convert people into PvP players? That's another issue. Do you want to actually bring them into the FGC? That's even harder.

    What I want is for competitive people who are already interested in PvP to have a good reason to pick fighting games over other genres like FPS, CCG, RTS, etc.
    Muttonman wrote: »
    vets tend to pride themselves on weeding out anyone who doesn't like to get their ass whooped for a whole session then wonder why nobody is coming back.

    FGC confirmed hipsters of e-sports.
    "Being degrading or insulting is not the same as being hype." - Mike Z
  • Evolution169Evolution169 Wake up DP is unbeatable Joined: Posts: 1,063
    edited December 2016
    ukyo_rulz wrote: »
    Try going 1v1 against someone in a shooter when you've never played a shooter before and they have months to years of experience. You'll be lucky to get any kills. That's why 1v1 modes in shooters tend to struggle, or not even exist at all. The only ones I can think of that ever had a strong 1v1 community were games like Quake and UT, and those aren't even doing as well as fighters these days.

    I played 1v1 against a competitive Quake player for months back in college. Went from an easy 10-0 for him, to a hard-won 10-0 for him, to the point where I could usually get it to 6-4 in his favor and even 3-7 in my favor when I got lucky. At no point in time did I ever do anything other than actually play Quake. There wasn't a separate "intro to Quake" mode that I had to grind in for weeks or months. Just playing was enough.

    That is the difference.

    Yes, but most people don't want to ever go 0-10 in a shooter, which is why 1v1s died out in favor of objective and TDM modes. In other words, there is no mass appeal in 1v1. The only exceptions I see are turn based games with RNG.

    I get the point you're making, but the point I'm making is that fighters just can't have mass appeal without becoming something else.
  • Raging_ZoroarkRaging_Zoroark Disgraceful! Joined: Posts: 1,426
    Muttonman wrote: »
    Getting people into the FGC proper means dropping the "they'll lose until they like it" mentality and actually going easy on newbies as mentor figures. That's not something I see happening soon, as vets tend to pride themselves on weeding out anyone who doesn't like to get their ass whooped for a whole session then wonder why nobody is coming back.

    Funny, I absolutely hate when people hold back when playing with me, even if I'm a newbie at a game. I don't care if I lose 10 battles without touching my opponent, but if someone picks some character they don't normally use to ensure a more "fair" battle it pisses me off. Maybe I'm just weird.
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  • NickRocksNickRocks DeathPlay Joined: Posts: 22,738
    RIP this thread
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  • ArtVandelayArtVandelay Architect Joined: Posts: 5,527
    ukyo_rulz wrote: »
    Try going 1v1 against someone in a shooter when you've never played a shooter before and they have months to years of experience. You'll be lucky to get any kills. That's why 1v1 modes in shooters tend to struggle, or not even exist at all. The only ones I can think of that ever had a strong 1v1 community were games like Quake and UT, and those aren't even doing as well as fighters these days.

    I played 1v1 against a competitive Quake player for months back in college. Went from an easy 10-0 for him, to a hard-won 10-0 for him, to the point where I could usually get it to 6-4 in his favor and even 3-7 in my favor when I got lucky. At no point in time did I ever do anything other than actually play Quake. There wasn't a separate "intro to Quake" mode that I had to grind in for weeks or months. Just playing was enough.

    That is the difference.

    Kinda doubt that the OGs in Street Fighter had training mode.
    Pretty sure you can get good at fighting games with minimal time spent in training mode.
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  • ultrapowerlevelultrapowerlevel (SuperShadonic) Joined: Posts: 114
    edited December 2016
    Problem is, most people love the satisfaction of inputting hard things to get a result. Such as in a long combo.

    If you easify the moves too much it could alienate many people who enjoy the above said satisfaction.
  • Evolution169Evolution169 Wake up DP is unbeatable Joined: Posts: 1,063
    Pertho wrote: »
    What's funny about that quake analogy is that learning while playing is exactly what people have done in arcades for decades.

    Yeah that was the only option. There is no going back to that now.
This discussion has been closed.