4 Weeks into Season 2, thoughts on meterless DPs no longer being invincible reversals?

JoeyTonesJoeyTones Joined: Posts: 1,079
edited January 23 in Street Fighter V
It was a weird decision when it was first revealed, and very "un-Street Fighter", but what are your thoughts now that you've had time to play Season 2. General consensus I've heard thrown around is:

- It's reduced defensive options for a select few characters, in turn making those characters play more similarly to the rest of the cast
- For a game you want to sell, you've made the game appeal even less to casuals. They're going to wonder why their DP doesn't work anymore
- Less hype? No more UmeShoryus and Phenom Necalli DPs.

Getting hit by a CC combo is brutal in this game, isn't that enough to discourage reckless use of DPs? If DP into Super was too damaging, may find another way to scale the damage? If the DPs themselves were too damaging, nerf their damage?

Is there some balance decision / overall design philosophy with SFV that justified their removal? Did they want to take less "randomness" out of the game? Did they want to ensure that when players earned a hard knockdown, they're entitled to a free meaty attack against ALL of the cast?

Thoughts?
Post edited by JoeyTones on
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Comments

  • gigglzgigglz Joined: Posts: 493
    Dime_x wrote: »
    It's a touchy subject but since I'm like the only that suggested it in this forum (even though I never thought that it would happen) I'll give the reasons why I myself think the way I do:

    1.sf5 is not sf4 or sf2 or sf3, the game mechanics are very different and most things though not all, have been nerfed from previous iteration of the series:

    Command grabs are no longer 0 frames and have less range than usual.
    Throws have been slowed down and have less range
    Jabs/weak attacks have been nerfed for comboability with them not usually linking into mediums nor usually having weak attack x3 confirms
    Reversals as a whole have been nerfed by making most of them use meter and only being able to store 3 meters (as opposed to sf4's 4 meters)
    And a whole slew of other things that have changed in this game, while meterless reversals have stayed basically the same outside of getting crunch countered.

    2. Baiting reversals in this game isn't just harder than in other games, you simply have way fewer options to do it. In sf4 as an example you could get point blank up to your opponent on a hard knockdown and then backdash at the last instant and make their DP wiff and get a full punish on them. This was a very ambiguous bait and you generally lost nothing for doing it. If the opponent didn't take the bait, well you lost a bit of momentum, but that's it. This was a very ambiguous type of bait and it really kept reversals in check even when people would fade them since the reversal would wiff. In sf5 however this type of bait is generally unavailable against quickrise because of the nature of quickrise, it leaves you at +2 to -4 on most moves. That means to bait you have to actually have to block the opponents reversal and that is risky. The opponent could just grab you since you have to be point blank to make anyone scared, or they could jab and then throw you. These are 2 options that you never really had to deal with in the streetfighter series if you played the oki game right.

    But now, you DO have to deal with the opponent having those defensive options ON TOP of no longer having huge hard knockdown frame advantage to work with. This makes reversals exceptionally strong in this game because of how non ambiguous the attacking characters position is.

    3. The meterless reversal characters as a group save for ken were all saving to super exceptionally easy with little to no downside for the effort. They had good damaging meterless combos and super damaging metered combos on top of the meterless reversal.
    4. Crush counters to do big damage to reversals is nowhere near the "nerf" to reversals that people say it is. That's just those people drinking the koolaid and not understanding the sf5 system mechanics. in most street fighters if you wiff a reversal you will get hit by a combo that does around 25% damage up to 75% damage depending on meter and positioning but no meter will usually be like 25% for most top and mid tier.

    In sf5 if you have no meter your "punish" is puny. We are talking about like around 110-200 damage meterless depending on character. 200 damage isn't even 25% life against a 900 hp character.
    So to balance sf5's damage scaling and system mechanic issues they made it so that all invincible non CA moves go into crush counter state so that most characters can do around 200 damage meterless up to around 300 damage or so for a meter for a punish. This makes it feel like "normal" damage when punishing reversals.
    Remember, in this game when you punish something you generally don't get a good attacking position for it afterwards. So the damage is mostly all you get. Whereas in old school game you take at least 25% meterless (usually more) or you get put into a nasty mixup situation that can lose you the game. Neither of these apply really to sf5 without CC so it really needed to have the CC mechanic added to reversals.

    Think about a game where it's unsafe to bait dps, punishing them gives you little damage, you don't get a decent mixup for a punish, and offense is very turn based because pressure is hard to come by because weak attacks and confirms push you out of throw mixup/frame trap range. That's what the game would look like with fully meterless reversals and no CC on block.
    5. Burst damage is a lot more viable and important in sf5 because of the lack of vortex style mixups. So being able to save to a super very easily is a huge advantage. That advantage is most easily accessed by characters that have no reversal to spend meter on (and that's a huge weakness to have that strength) and characters that get a reversal for no meter of course have all the awesome benefits.



    It's for these general reasons that meterless reversals had to go. As it is though I think that capcom implementation is terrible. DP's should never get stuffed by jump in attacks. Not only that but meterless reversals still work against gap offense and since there like no tight blockstrings, they are still an excellent reversal.

    Implemented correctly I would have made meterless reversals totally invincible to all jump attacks and totally not invincible to any ground attacks. I would have made ex reversals invincible to everything with slightly more damage to boot.

    Having said all that, I personally would totally welcome meterless reversals to come back with open arms if hard knockdowns were put back into the game... which will never happen.

    Or if that couldn't happen then I'd like to see backrise taken out or quickrise be made around +10 after the dash so that dp could realistically be baited without putting the attacker in range for being counter thrown or wake up jabbed.

    But more would actually need to be done, but oh well.

    Damn.. I love your explaination..

    I have to admit that I like the change but could never have explained myself as you just did.

    I like it that I can pressure freely when my opponent does not have meter, and when he does, I may eat the damage and are knocked down, but at least my opponent had to pas for that strong option to switch turns on HIS knockdown.
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 57,291 mod
    I'm sure Dime said a lot of what I would have said. Game is a different game and is more like Alpha 2 or 3S where you can roll or alpha counter out a lot of the potential set play.


    Which means that since shotos, Necalli and Cammy were the only ones with frame 1 dps, they inherently had more meter more often than those that didnt. This makes it so they have to at least kill a bar sometimes to get out of a bad situation. Which either way those characters can still really hold onto meter since none of their EX moves are really required for them to function and get close to winning a round.

    Ain't nothin, Capcom's ruthless still producin.  Cut em a check or find yoself toothless.  Keep it shill with no confusin.  Niggas say I'm shill...they ain't hard I can prove it YEEEAH


  • NG1313NG1313 Joined: Posts: 1,570
    edited January 24
    What's "great" about throw loops? Its stupidity lies right there in its name. It's one of the dumbest complaints I hear about SFV - "I don't have any throw loops".

    With an endless supply of invincible reversals it was like playing a card game with the family where you lay down a good card but the opponent may at any time just pick it up and just throw it away.
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  • AlexTheKingAlexTheKing Joined: Posts: 1,141
    Not much has changed except that I have to spend one meter and that I rarely have enough meter for super anymore. I like the change overall especially when you're applying pressure on wakeup, and if you're on defense just learn to damn block or spend meter.
  • NecrotrophicNecrotrophic Isn't a communist. Joined: Posts: 5,926
    edited January 24
    its weird but ultimately i don't care that much about it.

    also, throw loops are really good and the game needs more of them. you can tech throws without taking damage. I'll never understand the desire for some people to never deal with offense. You lose neutral, watch yourself die. Thats Street fighter. Be happy you can tech throws.
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  • ReticentlyReticently Joined: Posts: 4,095
    edited January 24
    Invincibility has always been a fraud mechanic anyway. Breaks the visual logic of the game- if your foot is being pushed through my face and out the back of my skull, me yelling "Shoryuken" shouldn't just fix everything for me.

    Things should win or lose based on hit and hurt boxes as much as possible, and if that means sometimes you have to block a meaty then sometimes you're gonna have to block a meaty. Or at least learn to live with spending a meter. Not like that EX isn't also giving you more damage.
  • YokoYoko Joined: Posts: 20
    S2 is way boring than s1, sorry guys
  • JoeyTonesJoeyTones Joined: Posts: 1,079
    Looks like they might have made the right move reading these responses. Good stuff.
  • javertjavert 'sup Joined: Posts: 1,237
    With the Spring update announcing, do you believe they're reverting the DP change?

    I would haaate the return of the "disrespect" but I can imagine the Capcom devs itching to do something (fraudulent) about shotos being the most played and also being at the bottom of the winrates. Hope Woshige channels his inner Millia and manages to keep the new world order.
  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 9,890
    javert wrote: »
    With the Spring update announcing, do you believe they're reverting the DP change?

    Not a chance. None of the DLC characters had meterless fully invincible reversals, which means this change has been decided a long time ago.
    Also the shotos are - and have always been - at the bottom of winrates only because every noob picks them.
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  • KarinxYunKarinxYun DSC_Fitt3dcap Joined: Posts: 51
    I'd be surprised if DP doesn't return. It is commonly expressed with good players that this change is honestly dumb, and part of the reason why characters like Laura, Rog, and Urien, run a train.

    Shotos in particular, hurt badly from this change. Ryu is straight garbage now, and capcom was too lazy to rework Ryu after taking away dp. His normals are below average, fireball got worse and the game is just not friendly towards them, and now he is a joke on defense

    Javits had the right idea with invincible reversals. Bring them back, but don't allow some to be special cancelable, and only make one dp dedicated for reversals and the others for combos that can be cancelled.

  • FrozteyFroztey Break the Cuffs Joined: Posts: 9,728 mod
    I don't notice it, but y'know what I do notice? Characters who had them in S1 no longer sit on full meter as often.

    Idk if good or bad but it's there.
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  • DimeDime Wasting time Joined: Posts: 10,885
    KarinxYun wrote: »
    I'd be surprised if DP doesn't return. It is commonly expressed with good players that this change is honestly dumb, and part of the reason why characters like Laura, Rog, and Urien, run a train.

    Shotos in particular, hurt badly from this change. Ryu is straight garbage now, and capcom was too lazy to rework Ryu after taking away dp. His normals are below average, fireball got worse and the game is just not friendly towards them, and now he is a joke on defense

    Javits had the right idea with invincible reversals. Bring them back, but don't allow some to be special cancelable, and only make one dp dedicated for reversals and the others for combos that can be cancelled.

    They didn't take dp away. Regular ones still have partial invincibility and ex ones have full invincibility. If ryu is "garbage" now, that has more to do with his players not using ex dp or the fact that rog has gotten better and he was already a character that pwnd fireballs.

    Who's a "good" player is subjective as hell. 99% of this forum including myself are in the top 5% of everyone that has ever played sf5 online.

    "Good" literally means "as good as me or better" to most people. Gootecks is better than most players in this forum yet few would call him good, here.

    I don't listen to what the evo champ has to say as far as balance is concerned if that balance doesn't start to trickle down to most levels.
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  • KarinxYunKarinxYun DSC_Fitt3dcap Joined: Posts: 51
    Dime_x wrote: »
    KarinxYun wrote: »
    I'd be surprised if DP doesn't return. It is commonly expressed with good players that this change is honestly dumb, and part of the reason why characters like Laura, Rog, and Urien, run a train.

    Shotos in particular, hurt badly from this change. Ryu is straight garbage now, and capcom was too lazy to rework Ryu after taking away dp. His normals are below average, fireball got worse and the game is just not friendly towards them, and now he is a joke on defense

    Javits had the right idea with invincible reversals. Bring them back, but don't allow some to be special cancelable, and only make one dp dedicated for reversals and the others for combos that can be cancelled.

    They didn't take dp away. Regular ones still have partial invincibility and ex ones have full invincibility. If ryu is "garbage" now, that has more to do with his players not using ex dp or the fact that rog has gotten better and he was already a character that pwnd fireballs.

    Who's a "good" player is subjective as hell. 99% of this forum including myself are in the top 5% of everyone that has ever played sf5 online.

    "Good" literally means "as good as me or better" to most people. Gootecks is better than most players in this forum yet few would call him good, here.

    I don't listen to what the evo champ has to say as far as balance is concerned if that balance doesn't start to trickle down to most levels.

    Ryu is garbage because his St lk a joke, fireball is worse most characters, and he free on defense. Rog beating his ass is just top of the iceberg.

    Balance should only trickle to intermediate to high level. Beginners aren't even in the question, because they aren't knowledgeable enough to know why they are losing to begin with.
  • CobraKaiCobraKai Joined: Posts: 584
    The only people happy with these changes are going to be people who never played DP characters before.

    These changes just alienated a load of players. Not as though this games community was large in the first place.
  • NecrotrophicNecrotrophic Isn't a communist. Joined: Posts: 5,926
    i only play dp characters typically, especially since v launched and I'm completely indifferent.

    dps are still good, you can catch a lot of people a lot of the time. I'm still interrupting looser frame traps, or some meaties (a lot of people use meaty setups that technically arent meaties)
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  • AceKombatAceKombat (́◕◞౪◟◕‵) ”WINNERS DON’T USE ALMIGHTY.” Joined: Posts: 2,086
    If anything, I'm more disappointed that deep DP AAs are indirectly nerfed due to the change. Adapting to the change is fine, but they made the game plan of zoning indirectly worse for shotos(with still some hefty recovery), which proposes lost momentum via blocking/trade/stuffed DPs to occur at a higher chance in-game.
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  • QuarkQuark Joined: Posts: 4,077
    edited February 1
    KarinxYun wrote: »
    I'd be surprised if DP doesn't return. It is commonly expressed with good players that this change is honestly dumb, and part of the reason why characters like Laura, Rog, and Urien, run a train.

    bringing back DPs would at most stop Laura, Rog, and Urien from running a train on 4 characters. 3 of which (cammy nec ken) mostly have manageable matchups against them anyways, as far as I know (correct me if I'm wrong)

    I'm not a fan of the DP nerf either, but I'm confused about people talking about it as if it's some massive change to the game's mechanics, when it affects only about 1/5th of matchups

    I do think Ryu was hit particularly hard by the DP nerf, but even if they reverted it he'd still get bodied by rog and laura given their buffs and his (other) nerfs. not to mention characters like nash and sim who don't even have a metered DP to bail them out. I think rog/laura/urien dominating has far more to do with their overall power level compared to rest of the cast than it has to do with the lack of DPs. rog/laura don't even have metered DPs themselves, and urien's metered DP is the worst in the game, yet all three of these characters are supposedly broken

    don't forget that mika, nash, karin, and chun were widely agreed to be top 8 in S1 despite their lack of a meterless DP. I seem to remember a few people even called chun the best character in the game? ;)

    the problem isn't that DPs were taken away, it's that a lot of characters just suck
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  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 9,890
    Quark wrote: »
    KarinxYun wrote: »
    I'd be surprised if DP doesn't return. It is commonly expressed with good players that this change is honestly dumb, and part of the reason why characters like Laura, Rog, and Urien, run a train.

    bringing back DPs would at most stop Laura, Rog, and Urien from running a train on 4 characters. 3 of which (cammy nec ken) mostly have manageable matchups against them anyways, as far as I know (correct me if I'm wrong)

    I think the main issue is indeed that without that DP Ryu doesn't really have much going for him compared to the other 3 characters. Cammy has amazing normals and walk speed, Necalli has strong pressure, CCs for everything and high damage, Ken has great conversions, corner carry and a hellish corner game. What has Ryu going for him? His fireball game is outclassed by Guile; his normals are okay but now they are slower and have worse hitboxes for almost no reason; he gets nothing off throws and his pressure is limited. Since he doesn't excel neither in offense nor in defense, what's the point of playing him? Unless they give him new tools or they give him back some tools (donkey kick?), meterless DP might be the only way he has to stand out and be a viable pick over Akuma, Guile or Ken.
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  • QuarkQuark Joined: Posts: 4,077
    yeah. if there's 1 character in the game who should have a meterless DP it's ryu. I wouldn't mind that being his niche as a character.
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  • DimeDime Wasting time Joined: Posts: 10,885
    Actually the dp character has always been ken. The fireball character has always been ryu.
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  • QuarkQuark Joined: Posts: 4,077
    edited February 2
    I'm not talking about legacy, I'm saying that from a balance and playstyle perspective it makes the most sense for SFV ryu to keep the meterless DP

    maybe akuma should have one too now that I think about it, dunno
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  • DimeDime Wasting time Joined: Posts: 10,885
    Quark wrote: »
    I'm not talking about legacy, I'm saying that from a balance and playstyle perspective it makes the most sense for SFV ryu to keep the meterless DP

    maybe akuma should have one too now that I think about it, dunno

    I don't think any of them deserve it. I think they deserve to spend meter just like everyone else

    I think they deserve slightly more ranged pokes as well, but that's all I think they deserve. I don't think ryu himself should ever be high tier. Middle of the road is a great spot for ryu imo.
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • DimeDime Wasting time Joined: Posts: 10,885
    edited February 2
    I'm not going to fully go into it because that would require more writing than I am prepared to do and it would fall on deaf ears anyways. As a truncation/tldr I will say this however:

    Ryu is perfectly fine in this game as he is.
    The "problem" is the shit design of the game and that some characters get around his fireballs (including himself) way to easily.

    Giving some characters really shit ways around fireballs that all require upclose spacing and timing that is very close to being the same as when the fireball was done, versus characters that can get around the fireballs in an extremely delayed fashion from much further ranges away.

    This creates huge meta/matchup problems for ryu that he doesn't deserve. He's supposed to be a jack of all trades master of none so when you give characters like cammy and rog and juri etc etc some of the easiest ways around fireballs known to man, you make ryu worse than he probably should be in certain matchups, which makes ryu players whine about things they really shouldn't be whining about and asking for things he shouldn't have.

    The real buff that ryu needs is for the characters that easily get around fireballs, to no longer get around fireballs so easily.

    Once that happens there is only 1-2 real balance contentions to be concerned about:

    1. Now guile is hyper dumb since he's also a character that uses plasma to get shit done (guile would have to be toned down somehow)
    2. Non fireball characters will need better upclose offense in the form of better damage or better pressure or better follow ups once in.




    But yeah I don't think ryu is the problem. I think the game balance and design is the problem. I think if you try and make ryus square peg fit into a round hole (by buffing ryu) the game will be even worse off than it already is.
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  • d3vd3v Coughing DAT PINK SPIT Joined: Posts: 36,983 mod
    Ryu was always going to eventually go down here for the same reasons he was middle of the road in 3S - bad fireballs in a game where everyone has an anti-fireball tool.
  • NecrotrophicNecrotrophic Isn't a communist. Joined: Posts: 5,926
    edited February 3
    that and they love nerfing him. they did it in 4 too
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  • PerthoPertho The Runed One Joined: Posts: 22,137 mod
    Oh noes Laura/Urien/Rog are going around doing crazy shit and nobody can stop them.

    When you take out the failsafe for making inherently strong offenses...

    P.S. please don't nerf Laura/Urien/Rog, they are the ones really making this game have a strong identity.
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  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 57,291 mod
    edited February 3
    Pertho wrote: »
    Oh noes Laura/Urien/Rog are going around doing crazy shit and nobody can stop them.

    When you take out the failsafe for making inherently strong offenses...

    P.S. please don't nerf Laura/Urien/Rog, they are the ones really making this game have a strong identity.

    How about dat patch coming up?

    :giggle:

    d3v wrote: »
    Ryu was always going to eventually go down here for the same reasons he was middle of the road in 3S - bad fireballs in a game where everyone has an anti-fireball tool.

    He was really only a few tools away from being good in 3S. Ken proves that nobody needed a good fireball to be good in 3S. In Second Impact he had double denjin which was pretty ridiculous on its own. In SI everyone had some broken shit though.


    The only shoto remotely designed around a fireball game in 3S was Akuma and that's just because his air fireball comes at an angle and with frame data that makes it tough to parry punish.

    Alpha 3 is also another game where fireballs aren't that strong within the shotos. V Ryu is high tier and doesn't really revolve heavily around fireballs. If you watch a typical V Ryu vs V Akuma they are jumping around and hitting buttons most often. Rarely ever actually engage in fireballs wars especially with CC's being so dangerous. Not to mention air blocking which forces a lot of improvisation to AA with a fireball or DP




    In SFV it's really just about Ryu needing better buttons considering everyone else who has a good fireball in this game also has better buttons than him. Urien, Nash, Guile all have better buttons than him and all have good fireball games that work well even against the anti projectile options. Guile's fireball game with the V Skill and V Trigger creates patterns that you basically can't do much about even if you have anti projectile options. Although Rog probably beats Guile, he still has to respect his fireball game enough.

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  • DimeDime Wasting time Joined: Posts: 10,885
    If ryu gets better buttons he will have to lose something very strong and integral to his success to get it.

    Or else he will literally be a 7-3 matchup for like nearly every other fireballer in the game.
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • BeastEGBeastEG One day, I'll realize I'm bad at FG's Joined: Posts: 405
    Making the iconic poster boy of a FG bottom 5 probably isn't the best way to grow your game in terms of popularity....
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  • JustinAkatsukiJustinAkatsuki Joined: Posts: 214
    Dime_x wrote: »
    If ryu gets better buttons he will have to lose something very strong and integral to his success to get it.

    Or else he will literally be a 7-3 matchup for like nearly every other fireballer in the game.

    What else can he lose? lol He already lost his throw pressure, st lk range,meterless DP,normals being slower etc. Saying he would be a 7-3 MU against every other fireballer is just theory talk. There are two popular opinions on Ryu in season 2, One side says he is mid tier and fine while the other side says he is closer or is just bottom 5 in season 2. Majority of players here already say he is closer to the bottom 5 in season 2 and there is a good reason for that. Go use the character and see for yourself
  • DimeDime Wasting time Joined: Posts: 10,885
    Dime_x wrote: »
    If ryu gets better buttons he will have to lose something very strong and integral to his success to get it.

    Or else he will literally be a 7-3 matchup for like nearly every other fireballer in the game.

    What else can he lose? lol He already lost his throw pressure, st lk range,meterless DP,normals being slower etc. Saying he would be a 7-3 MU against every other fireballer is just theory talk. There are two popular opinions on Ryu in season 2, One side says he is mid tier and fine while the other side says he is closer or is just bottom 5 in season 2. Majority of players here already say he is closer to the bottom 5 in season 2 and there is a good reason for that. Go use the character and see for yourself

    I've used him a lot, he's quite easy. Didn't use throw loops when he had them. I see no reason for them tbqh. Throw loops should be on the upclose characters, not the zoner.

    Next thing you know the command grabbers will be complaining about not having strike invincible dp's...

    Ryu feels quite midtier now. Basically exactly where he needs to be. Still has some of the easiest super confirms in the game, really good AA, really good fireball, really good dash and cr.mp is a very solid poke.
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • Raz0rRaz0r Did you really just write that? Joined: Posts: 25,994 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    0 frame command grabs? What game has grabs like that?
    This is offensive.
  • Raz0rRaz0r Did you really just write that? Joined: Posts: 25,994 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Not to mention air blocking which forces a lot of improvisation to AA with a fireball or DP

    Why would you do this? You can't air block grounded normals or supers.
    This is offensive.
  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 9,890
    edited February 7
    delete
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