4 Weeks into Season 2, thoughts on meterless DPs no longer being invincible reversals?

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  • AlkipotAlkipot Purse first, ass last Joined: Posts: 1,676
    edited February 7
    Quark wrote: »
    Alkipot wrote: »
    Yeah, I think I'm good on facing shotos every other match. I'm all for the dp changes. Every shoto still has solid damage and anti air buttons so no sympathy.

    finally, advocating for other characters to get nerfed to irrelevance simply because you don't enjoy fighting them is pretty lame. I detest fighting Bison probably more than any other character in the game... but I've frequently advocated for bison buffs, because I think bison mains deserve to have their fun just as much as I do.

    Holy shit, every shoto just sulks at me for some reason. The way you talk is like DPs vanished from the game.

    Once again, I never said nerf Ryu, nor did I say to irrelevance. I don't give a shit if they take his dp invincibility or not, but since they did take it I'm all for it, and he still DOES have an invincible dp. A change I never thought or campaigned for happened, so I'm cool with it. The 80% chance of Shoto matchups have been reduced. Complain on Capcom unity or Eventhubs or whatever.

    I hate fighting Bison too, where's my nerf devils reverse posts?

    Ryu needs meter for damage instead of get off me DPs? Cool, make Laura's ex clap use no meter. Cuz she needs meter for damage lol.

    Fuck it, back to just 'hold dat' responses.
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  • QuarkQuark Joined: Posts: 3,700
    edited February 7
    I didn't say you had campaigned for DPs to be removed. I said it's lame to be happy about other characters being bad.

    if you can't see for yourself why giving Laura meterless EX clap would be more broken than giving Ryu his meterless DP back than I really don't know what to say. apart from the fact that they fulfill entirely different functions, you can't just compare tools in isolation without looking at a character's entire toolset.

    otherwise I don't really know what you're trying to say here. if you want to respond to the arguments I made for why Ryu needs a DP, go ahead. maybe we can have a discussion about it. you seem more interested in channeling LTG's shoto scrub talk than making arguments though.

    "Please understand, I never had a secret chart
    To get me to the heart of this or any other matter"
  • Dime_xDime_x Wasting time Joined: Posts: 9,243
    Uh oh.. SHAMING LANGUAGE!

    What will we ever do.

    I already answered the basic questions in my first post in this thread. To go into it agai would just be rehashing it.

    But EVERY character uses super to get more damage so that's a very moot point.

    Funny, when I first brought this up back in season 1, people told me (even if it happened we will adjust, the reversal isn't the real problem anyways) and now that the METERLESS reversal has had 2 frames of invincibility shaved off of it, not even fully taken away, they've gone back on that change and now it makes ryu terrible.


    LOL

    I for the record welcome back meterless reversals, not just for the big 4 though, for basically everyone/ most characters.

    IF THEY BRING HARD KNOCKDOWNS BACK.

    Meterless reversal in a game where you can already mixup your wakeup timings Is fucking overkill.

    I play Laura who doesn't even have a reversal outside super and it basically means nothing because mixing up wakeup options is actually better than old school games where you had a meterless dp and hard knockdown.

    People want both a quick rise a backrise AND a meterless dp... fuck that noise.
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • Dime_xDime_x Wasting time Joined: Posts: 9,243
    Or here's another option:

    Make back and quickrise cost a bar of v meter or a bar of supermeter. Keep meterless reversals. But now you have to pay for oki sidestepping privileges.

    Only problem would be that this would unnecessarily gimp characters with no reversals, I think.

    Hmmm
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • QuarkQuark Joined: Posts: 3,700
    edited February 8
    Dime_x wrote: »
    But EVERY character uses super to get more damage so that's a very moot point.

    some characters are more reliant on it than others. I already explained why it's particularly important for ryu so I'm not going to rehash my point, either.
    Dime_x wrote: »
    Funny, when I first brought this up back in season 1, people told me (even if it happened we will adjust, the reversal isn't the real problem anyways) and now that the METERLESS reversal has had 2 frames of invincibility shaved off of it, not even fully taken away, they've gone back on that change and now it makes ryu terrible.

    maybe ryu players said that, I didn't play ryu S1 so I wouldn't know. in all fairness, though, most of us didn't think that DPs were going to lose air invincibility as well as ground invincibility. we also didn't know Ryu was going to get nerfed in a bunch of other ways that would aggravate the loss of his meterless DP.

    hell... I just thought they were going to nerf his j.LK and throw loop and call it a day. if those were the only nerfs they made apart from the meterless DP change than ofc it wouldn't be such a huge loss.

    but there's a reason I'm talking about Ryu here and not DP characters in general. cammy and necalli lost their meterless DP but are still top tier because they suffered minimal losses otherwise.
    Dime_x wrote: »

    Meterless reversal in a game where you can already mixup your wakeup timings Is fucking overkill.

    half of S1's top 8 did just fine with no meterless reversal. in fact mika and nash had no reversal at all and still won the biggest 2 tournaments of the year. there was not 1 meterless DP character in the grand finals of capcup or evo.

    so there's simply no empirical basis for the claim that meterless DPs are innately broken or impossible to balance around in this game. it might make sense in theory but we have a year's worth of data now and the data says otherwise. the characters who had meterless DPs were very strong but not even close to broken, and many of the reasons they were strong had nothing to do with their DP.

    it's true that mixing up wakeup timings makes defense stronger, but you're neglecting that the CC system makes DPs MASSIVELY more punishable than they were in past games. that's why the characters without a meterless DP could ultimately still compete.

    I would love it if they brought back hard knockdowns though, can't disagree with that.

    "Please understand, I never had a secret chart
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  • Dime_xDime_x Wasting time Joined: Posts: 9,243
    Dont agree with much of that and im pretty sure most evidence is on my side. The only evidence to the contrary is daigo losing and not many other ryus stepping up to the plate.

    1. The dp aa thing is dumb and needs to go but its a red herring at this point. Your not going to get back meterless dp just because 1 in15 dps get beaten because you timed them to late. You can still use jab or cr.hp or cr.mp or ex dp.
    2. As far as it being theory, thats like walking into a wall and saying the wall is only theoretical.


    Ive already stated what ryus true problems are, and what needs to be done to rectify that situation.


    And as far as hard knowkdowns is concerned, yeah, its true. But its the way the game is so until they come back or until sf6 comes out and capcom proves it has a brain working there and the hkd comes back... nope, no meterless dps.
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • QuarkQuark Joined: Posts: 3,700
    edited February 8
    Dime_x wrote: »
    Dont agree with much of that and im pretty sure most evidence is on my side. The only evidence to the contrary is daigo losing and not many other ryus stepping up to the plate.

    you don't think the fact that evo and capcup were won by characters without reversals is evidence that you didn't need a reversal to succeed?
    "Please understand, I never had a secret chart
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  • Dime_xDime_x Wasting time Joined: Posts: 9,243
    The fact that nash immediately fell off after the win is evidence that people didnt know the matchup. The fact that mika won capcup is evidence that having 2 characters to cover each others bad matchups was a smart thing.

    Mika didnt win capcup on her own. Guile covered her bad matchups and she covered his.
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • QuarkQuark Joined: Posts: 3,700
    edited February 8
    what about Fuudo? or Yukadon? or the 3 chuns who also made top 8 at CapCup?

    only 2 of the top 8 players at CapCup used characters with meterless reversals

    and only 6 of the top 16 players used characters with meterless reversals.

    this was the final CPT tournament so you can't exactly make arguments about the meta not being figured out yet.

    sure, there are other tournaments we could look at for data, but all of these players were kicking ass consistently throughout the year with the possible exception of Fchamp and mr. crimson.

    I think you'd have to willfully cherry pick results to come to the conclusion that meterless DP characters were broken. were they good? yes, but not good enough to lend credence to the claim that meterless DPs are impossible to balance around in SFV.
    "Please understand, I never had a secret chart
    To get me to the heart of this or any other matter"
  • Dime_xDime_x Wasting time Joined: Posts: 9,243
    edited February 8
    Quark wrote: »
    what about Fuudo? or Yukadon? or the 3 chuns who also made top 8 at CapCup?

    only 2 of the top 8 players at CapCup used characters with meterless reversals

    and only 6 of the top 16 players used characters with meterless reversals.

    this was the final CPT tournament so you can't exactly make arguments about the meta not being figured out yet.

    sure, there are other tournaments we could look at for data, but all of these players were kicking ass consistently throughout the year with the possible exception of Fchamp and mr. crimson.

    I think you'd have to willfully cherry pick results to come to the conclusion that meterless DP characters were broken. were they good? yes, but not good enough to lend credence to the claim that meterless DPs are impossible to balance around in SFV.

    There are (were) 4 meterless dp characters in the game. The game has... 22 characters last I checked (can't be bothered right now)

    So there being 4 in top 16 and 2 in top 8 seems rather natural.
    Having small pokes is less of a detriment in this game than basically any other streetfighter because of how good and easy it is to counterpoke people's ranged buttons with your lesser ranged buttons. That's why I went to Laura. After getting counterpoked all day against my ranged limbs I realised what's the fucking point if I can just get counterpoked?

    And so yeah. I just counterpoke now. Shit is dumb but I ain't complaining. It's just a dumb game. But I don't see stubby normals as the big weakness I once did, at least not versus characters with longer normals.


    And finally I don't think quoting evo or capcup is the way to go. It's very well known that tournament results tend to shift towards the players that know the game better than players using the tippity top tier, at least in the new school/depending on game I guess.

    Look at zero in umvc3. Widely considered the best character in the game, but a guy using hulk/haggar of all people is the best player.

    Like I said, ryus problem aren't his problems. The problem is that characters that can get around his fireballs do it to easily.

    Once that gets rectified, if it gets rectified, ryu will be in a good place and with no buffs to himself needed.

    But if ryu does get back invincible dp then at the very least Chun should get a majorly buffed throw range and a good safe on block/no meter, throw wiff punish.

    The thing is, I'm not asking for Chun to get back a plus on block iall. It was to good. But now it's useless basically. But that doesn't mean that she now deserves to get it back. What really needs to happen is the throw tech windows needs to become smaller or throws need more range or both.

    It's less a "Chun" problem and more a system one. Same as "ryu sucks" is less a ryu problem and more a matchup design issue.

    But I mean, feel free to continue ignoring that point I guess.
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • OceanMachineOceanMachine Veteran of the Fireball Wars Joined: Posts: 7,380
    Chun's throw range has already been buffed, now it's the same as most characters.
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  • amrraedamrraed Can't contain the Thickness Joined: Posts: 3,612
    Chun's throw range has already been buffed, now it's the same as most characters.
    They also increased the pushback on her lights so the problem isn't exactly fixed.
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  • Dime_xDime_x Wasting time Joined: Posts: 9,243
    That wheelchair ryus are in now seems to look pretty comfy.

    Awhile back I told @Highlandfireball to abuse ryus fhp more. Well it seems daigo finally got the memo, in this matchup at least.

    Ryu so low tier with only an ex reversal and a spammable -2 on block hitconfirm that reaches nearly half screen and recovers outside mixup range:



    image


    Gettin' my derp on.
  • AlkipotAlkipot Purse first, ass last Joined: Posts: 1,676
    Ryu winning games? Against good players?! What sorcery is this?
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  • QuarkQuark Joined: Posts: 3,700
    edited February 10
    low tier does not mean "unable to win games against good players"

    try again
    "Please understand, I never had a secret chart
    To get me to the heart of this or any other matter"
  • JustinAkatsukiJustinAkatsuki Joined: Posts: 193
    edited February 10
    Dime you don't have a clue about the character. Solar Plexus a lot isn't really a good idea because the move is slow (You can get hit out of it early) and it leaves you at -2. It does big damage on hit but how many times are you gonna land it against better opponents?
  • Dime_xDime_x Wasting time Joined: Posts: 9,243
    edited February 10
    Dime you don't have a clue about the character. Solar Plexus a lot isn't really a good idea because the move is slow (You can get hit out of it early) and it leaves you at -2. It does big damage on hit but how many times are you gonna land it against better opponents?

    Watch the video. Learn. It's easy. Ryus blocked solar plexus only gets punished on the very first try. After that daigo uses all kinds of ways to not get solar plexus punished or even harassed much.

    It seems that you are the one that needs to learn.

    Solar plexus is good against aggressive characters that need to walk or dash forward a lot. Aka it's stinking good against Chun for that reason alone. But it's good in just about any matchup where people have to approach ryu, like how nashes mk scythe is a good tool against people that need to approach Nash. The moves work basically the same. The distances are different and the advantages on block and hit are different.

    As an example though. Solar plexus is -2 on block and gives a combo on hit, meterless for no CH.

    Rashids st.hk is -4 doesn't give combo on regular hit.
    Chuns fhk is -2 on block with near the same startup as solar plexus but it doesn't give combo on regular hit outside v trigger. And even then the move can't be combod into her cr.lp unless it's used at around 50% of its max range whereas solar plexus converts into hp dp at around 80-90% of its max range.

    Different characters of course but don't downplay how good polar plexus is in this game compared to what others have. I hit people with the shit all the time and I don't even use ryu much at all. It's really easy. Throw a fireball or walk backwards a bit, both designed to get the opponent to move forward, then throw out solar plexus.


    It's not rocket science at all.
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Ibuki and Juri BUFFZ Joined: Posts: 51,550 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Dime is right. Well placed solar plexus is very scary. Safe on block move that you can fish with and get huge damage if it lands. What makes it the scariest is how it's active for about 4 or 5 different frames which is a big deal in this game. If you're unnecessarily whiffing buttons or walking forward at him that's all it takes to get clipped and your life bar goes away

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  • QuarkQuark Joined: Posts: 3,700
    edited February 10
    solar plexus is alright but it's not enough to make ryu a good character. if we're just gonna look at individual moves without looking at wider context than we could probably make FANG or Vega or Alex or anybody else sound broken. (FANG's cr.MK is a +3 on block, easy to confirm 2-hitting medium with 5 active frames and good range! can't be low tier with a move like that!)

    anyways, 17f startup means it's suicide to toss out solar plexus within your opponent's CC range, so you essentially already have to be winning the spacing game to use it. if it gets blocked (which is rather likely) it's -2 and gives very little pushback. you lose your turn and spacing, so it's not a good zoning tool like scythe (which has better startup, range, and pushback). it's more of a "toss it out there and pray" move like a CC except with significantly longer range and startup. still good to have but doesn't make up for Ryu's crappy CC game. I would much rather have a standard CC that I can pop from around sweep range for comparable damage + V gauge but with much faster startup. most CC's are safe on block and easy to confirm anyways; that's not unique to solar plexus. in fact spaced blocked CC's leave you in a better situation since they don't place you right in front of your opponent.

    the fact that Daigo did a good job escaping the situations where he was -2 doesn't change the fact that it's a disadvantageous scenario
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  • Dime_xDime_x Wasting time Joined: Posts: 9,243
    edited February 10
    D
    Quark wrote: »
    solar plexus is alright but it's not enough to make ryu a good character. if we're just gonna look at individual moves without looking at wider context than we could probably make FANG or Vega or Alex or anybody else sound broken. (FANG's cr.MK is a +3 on block, easy to confirm 2-hitting medium with 5 active frames and good range! can't be low tier with a move like that!)

    anyways, 17f startup means it's suicide to toss out solar plexus within your opponent's CC range, so you essentially already have to be winning the spacing game to use it. if it gets blocked (which is rather likely) it's -2 and gives very little pushback. you lose your turn and spacing, so it's not a good zoning tool like scythe (which has better startup, range, and pushback). it's more of a "toss it out there and pray" move like a CC except with significantly longer range and startup. still good to have but doesn't make up for Ryu's crappy CC game. I would much rather have a standard CC that I can pop from around sweep range for comparable damage + V gauge but with much faster startup. most CC's are safe on block and easy to confirm anyways; that's not unique to solar plexus. in fact spaced blocked CC's leave you in a better situation since they don't place you right in front of your opponent.

    the fact that Daigo did a good job escaping the situations where he was -2 doesn't change the fact that it's a disadvantageous scenario

    I disagree with a lot of that. Most CC buttons in this game are punishable if not spaced right. S1 ryu st.lk made sure of that. Now in s2 it's a bit more fair since st.lk xx ex special is no longer a braindead punish to any slightly misspaced CC button, but it's still there. CC by and large aren't free. Urien is the only character that I know of that really has free CC button. And he pays for it with no range on his non v trigger confirms and being a charge character to get out any of his strong specials.

    No one is saying that ryu is good "because of solar plexus" we are saying that solar plexus is good. A character can be bad while still having a good move or 2 or 3 good moves if all the other characters have 10 good moves instead. This is obvious.

    I'm not convinced ryu is bad in this. His design is still good. It's just that the design of other characters with regards to beating fireballs, is bullshit.
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • JustinAkatsukiJustinAkatsuki Joined: Posts: 193
    Yeah Dime just keep convincing yourself that all you want to. The fact you say his design is still good and St Lk ex special was a braindead punish you still don't have a clue about Ryu you just think you do. St Lk in season 1 kept some of those CC moves in check on block so the people with those CC buttons (ken st hk, Karin st HK) couldn't just throw it out in neutral whenever they wanted to but now with his st Lk in season 2 it's much harder. I really hope the patch reverts his st LK back but given what they done i have no faith in this balance patch.

    And yes Solar plexus is good IF you can land a hit with it, if your opponent keeps blocking the move then you're not doing yourself any favors.
  • AlkipotAlkipot Purse first, ass last Joined: Posts: 1,676
    edited February 10
    Moves are automatically bad if they're blocked? Lol I'm done!
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  • QuarkQuark Joined: Posts: 3,700
    edited February 10
    Dime_x wrote: »
    No one is saying that ryu is good "because of solar plexus" we are saying that solar plexus is good. A character can be bad while still having a good move or 2 or 3 good moves if all the other characters have 10 good moves instead. This is obvious.

    well when you say things like:
    Dime_x wrote: »
    Ryu so low tier with only an ex reversal and a spammable -2 on block hitconfirm that reaches nearly half screen and recovers outside mixup range:

    it makes it sound like you think those 2 moves are good enough to keep him from low tier. unless you weren't being sarcastic about him being "so low tier", in which case we're in agreement
    Dime_x wrote: »
    I'm not convinced ryu is bad in this. His design is still good. It's just that the design of other characters with regards to beating fireballs, is bullshit.

    a character's tier is determined by matchups, not how "good" their design is in theory. if ryu's design is "good" but the game is flooded with characters who shit on that design, he's still a bad character.

    I also happen to disagree that his S2 design is good, it seems totally incoherent to me.
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  • CrownySuccubusqueenCrownySuccubusqueen Joined: Posts: 19
    edited March 7
    Dime_x wrote: »
    Having small pokes is less of a detriment in this game than basically any other streetfighter because of how good and easy it is to counterpoke people's ranged buttons with your lesser ranged buttons. That's why I went to Laura. After getting counterpoked all day against my ranged limbs I realised what's the fucking point if I can just get counterpoked?

    And so yeah. I just counterpoke now. Shit is dumb but I ain't complaining. It's just a dumb game. But I don't see stubby normals as the big weakness I once did, at least not versus characters with longer normals.

    As a Chun player who was super frustrated with SFV for months and couldn't understand why, THANK YOU.

    I couldn't put my finger on what felt...wrong.
  • NG1313NG1313 Joined: Posts: 1,458
    edited March 8
    Dime_x wrote: »
    Having small pokes is less of a detriment in this game than basically any other streetfighter because of how good and easy it is to counterpoke people's ranged buttons with your lesser ranged buttons. That's why I went to Laura. After getting counterpoked all day against my ranged limbs I realised what's the fucking point if I can just get counterpoked?

    And so yeah. I just counterpoke now. Shit is dumb but I ain't complaining. It's just a dumb game. But I don't see stubby normals as the big weakness I once did, at least not versus characters with longer normals.

    As a Chun player who was super frustrated with SFV for months and couldn't understand why, THANK YOU.

    I couldn't put my finger on what felt...wrong.

    Sure, "the game is dumb" but the guy's solution to counter-poking was to just counter-poke himself.

    Unless I'm mistaken, that's the elemtary lesson in footsies.

    So... "the game is dumb"


    "Forbidden"? Not today! Shoryuken!!!
  • Captain RyuCaptain Ryu Scoot Magee Joined: Posts: 1,115
    edited March 8
    IMO it's just a massive buff to the offense in a game that's already lacking defensive options. Now people don't have anything to respect after they knock you down which promotes just going in even harder. Having to use a bar of meter just makes reversals even more risky than before. I think it was a bad decision especially with all the stupid fast/safe and crazy hard to react to EX moves in the game.

    Maybe I'm bias because I play Ryu but I feel like the neutral in this game is worse than it was in season 1. Dealing with Urien, Balrog, Bison and etc. is a nightmare. The lease they can do is give us our meterless reversals back to deal with the nonsense. I feel like AA dp's don't do enough damage in a game where jumping is so rewarding, fireballs are way too risky and the reversal dp nerf is the icing on the cake.
    CFN ScootMagee
  • CrownySuccubusqueenCrownySuccubusqueen Joined: Posts: 19
    NG1313 wrote: »
    Dime_x wrote: »
    Having small pokes is less of a detriment in this game than basically any other streetfighter because of how good and easy it is to counterpoke people's ranged buttons with your lesser ranged buttons. That's why I went to Laura. After getting counterpoked all day against my ranged limbs I realised what's the fucking point if I can just get counterpoked?

    And so yeah. I just counterpoke now. Shit is dumb but I ain't complaining. It's just a dumb game. But I don't see stubby normals as the big weakness I once did, at least not versus characters with longer normals.

    As a Chun player who was super frustrated with SFV for months and couldn't understand why, THANK YOU.

    I couldn't put my finger on what felt...wrong.

    Sure, "the game is dumb" but the guy's solution to counter-poking was to just counter-poke himself.

    Unless I'm mistaken, that's the elemtary lesson in footsies.

    So... "the game is dumb"


    Maybe? But, counterpoking still feels "off" in this game in comparison to other ones I've played. I've used Chun-Li for years, and I was baffled by why it felt so hard to play footsies with her.

    But I've only been playing fighters "seriously" since SFIV, so I thought it just might be me because no one else had any complaints. But he put the exact problems I felt into words.
  • Captain RyuCaptain Ryu Scoot Magee Joined: Posts: 1,115
    NG1313 wrote: »
    Dime_x wrote: »
    Having small pokes is less of a detriment in this game than basically any other streetfighter because of how good and easy it is to counterpoke people's ranged buttons with your lesser ranged buttons. That's why I went to Laura. After getting counterpoked all day against my ranged limbs I realised what's the fucking point if I can just get counterpoked?

    And so yeah. I just counterpoke now. Shit is dumb but I ain't complaining. It's just a dumb game. But I don't see stubby normals as the big weakness I once did, at least not versus characters with longer normals.

    As a Chun player who was super frustrated with SFV for months and couldn't understand why, THANK YOU.

    I couldn't put my finger on what felt...wrong.

    Sure, "the game is dumb" but the guy's solution to counter-poking was to just counter-poke himself.

    Unless I'm mistaken, that's the elemtary lesson in footsies.

    So... "the game is dumb"


    Maybe? But, counterpoking still feels "off" in this game in comparison to other ones I've played. I've used Chun-Li for years, and I was baffled by why it felt so hard to play footsies with her.

    But I've only been playing fighters "seriously" since SFIV, so I thought it just might be me because no one else had any complaints. But he put the exact problems I felt into words.

    Frame lag is what makes counter poking hard in sf5.
    CFN ScootMagee
  • NG1313NG1313 Joined: Posts: 1,458
    edited March 8
    NG1313 wrote: »
    Dime_x wrote: »
    Having small pokes is less of a detriment in this game than basically any other streetfighter because of how good and easy it is to counterpoke people's ranged buttons with your lesser ranged buttons. That's why I went to Laura. After getting counterpoked all day against my ranged limbs I realised what's the fucking point if I can just get counterpoked?

    And so yeah. I just counterpoke now. Shit is dumb but I ain't complaining. It's just a dumb game. But I don't see stubby normals as the big weakness I once did, at least not versus characters with longer normals.

    As a Chun player who was super frustrated with SFV for months and couldn't understand why, THANK YOU.

    I couldn't put my finger on what felt...wrong.

    Sure, "the game is dumb" but the guy's solution to counter-poking was to just counter-poke himself.

    Unless I'm mistaken, that's the elemtary lesson in footsies.

    So... "the game is dumb"


    Maybe? But, counterpoking still feels "off" in this game in comparison to other ones I've played. I've used Chun-Li for years, and I was baffled by why it felt so hard to play footsies with her.

    But I've only been playing fighters "seriously" since SFIV, so I thought it just might be me because no one else had any complaints. But he put the exact problems I felt into words.

    I get what you're saying but I just thought that phrasing was a little way out there... :p Just like everybody else I wish the input-response was much faster, but there is definitely some explanation as to why it's at least not on par with SF4, but you gotta remember SF4 had input-delay online while SF5 does not but rather has a universal delay, I guess you could say.. As somebody who just about exclusively plays online, I will definitely say that this is my preference, but still I definitely feel the "universal input-delay". I hope it gets improved a little bit as we go along.
    "Forbidden"? Not today! Shoryuken!!!
  • CrownySuccubusqueenCrownySuccubusqueen Joined: Posts: 19
    Like I said, I've only really been taking fighters seriously since SF4. Particularly USF4, so I'm totally new to all this. I've been fans of fighters for years, but never felt a drive to compete until I got myself a rival in USF4.

    Though we were rather equal in USF4, with us taking turns owning each other depending on the day, they have been consistently blowing me up in SF5 and I've been tearing my curls out trying to figure out why. One major weakness I've been trying to work on lately is footsies. Due to the problems mentioned, I've been really scared to play footies in SF5, and it made the rest of my game significantly worse. And part of the reason I was scared I now realize is because I was tired of my limbs getting counterhit by Ken/Ibuki (their characters) and then suddenly I get Supered and lose.
  • CrayRavenCrayRaven Joined: Posts: 167
    It didn't bother me when DPs were nerfed but I don't play a shoto anyway. I think they went overboard with the Ryu nerfs though. Its funny that they got rid of Ryus throw loop but other characters still have theirs.
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde Resident tech talk double poster Joined: Posts: 4,832
    No reversal without meter means you're free to frame traps all day when you don't have it. Reversal is already a risk you take if the opponent decides not to press a button during a frame trap setup, since CC means a big fat ton of damage. That's the whole point of rock paper scissors. If the opponent keeps pressing buttons and you DP, that's the opponent's fault for being predictable and throwing out the same patterns. CC on whiff reversal was already a huge nerf to reversal attempts, and since there is no focus canceling them, they're a commitment just like the old days.

    IMO, instead of taking away meterless reversal from the select tier that had it, they should have instead given everyone a reversal especially in a game that has so much meta revolving around frame traps and CC. Make everyone strong instead of everyone weak.

    If you haven't learned how to deal with invincible reversal since SF2, then no amount of nerfing to the reversal game will help you. You've had 30 years to learn how to deal with it. Stop pressing buttons mindlessly.
  • Dime_xDime_x Wasting time Joined: Posts: 9,243
    Moonchilde wrote: »
    .

    If you haven't learned how to deal with invincible reversal since SF2, then no amount of nerfing to the reversal game will help you. You've had 30 years to learn how to deal with it. Stop pressing buttons mindlessly.

    If you haven't learned how to deal with frame traps since sf2, then no amount of buffing to the reversal game will help you.


    I've already made a highly compelling argument why reversals are different in this game than they are in other streetfighter games.
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde Resident tech talk double poster Joined: Posts: 4,832
    Frame traps in SF2 don't get you near the damage they do in post SF2 games. Reversal is more important now than back then.
  • Dime_xDime_x Wasting time Joined: Posts: 9,243
    Moonchilde wrote: »
    Frame traps in SF2 don't get you near the damage they do in post SF2 games. Reversal is more important now than back then.

    Not that that's correct, but I'll leave your first point alone.

    But if reversal is so important to beating frame traps, how do you explain characters that win without using reversals at all?
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde Resident tech talk double poster Joined: Posts: 4,832
    What kind of logic is that?

    That's literally the same thing as asking "How do low tier characters win?"

    Watch Katsunoko vs Reiketsu from USF4.

    image

    Vega has no reversal in USF4 other than Ultra 2 (unlike SFV since he doesn't even have that) and gets steamrolled by Yun's safe block strings and frame traps. 2 massive come backs and 1 perfect against one of the top Vega players in the world. If Vega had a reversal even for meter, that match could have gone completely different and hopefully I don't need to explain why. Tell me you've watched this video and can't see why having a meterless reversal in a character's arsenal is a bad thing. You can clearly see how it affects the game when Yun can meterless wake up kicks and Vega can't.

    It's not any different in SFV with the exception that in SFV reversal is a riskier option since whiff means massive punishment, unlike in 4 much of the cast could FADC reversal and never need to commit other than spending some meter. In SFV however, CC is a thing and that leads to enormous damage from a lot of the cast who can capitalize off it, and even more if they can v.tigger to extend combos and get stun.

    Tell me why R.Mika was nerfed in S2 vs S1? Maybe s.LK ticking into command grab being a 3 frame (or was it 2?) window against a cast with bad reversal options and no 3 frame moves is a stupid fucking idea? Even with a 3 frame normal, you still couldn't beat that because command grab beats normal attack. Use a ex move that is throw invulnerable? Great, they just pressed fierce instead of throwing, so you just got CC for major damage. Instead take the throw every time or guess wrong once and lose. Jump back tech? Guess wrong once, you lose. At least with a reversal, a real one, it requires the opponent to respect your wake up a little bit more, and at least the opponent on the receiving end of something like a 3 frame command grab setup can take a risk to get the person off them. You guess wrong? Well you get punished, but at least this time you have 3 guesses instead of only 2, block or jump.

    Reversal was already "nerfed" by design from USF4 to SFV and now it's been further nerfed because people need meter for a risky move. Why nerf something that was already risky? Why take out a defensive option in a game pushing offense so hard? V.Reversal was supposed to be the answer to that but they fucked that up.

    Why nerf a character like FANG who was already ass tier to begin with?

    Why did the game launch with 8 frames of local input lag?

    I'm not even going to guess why these decisions are made, because when it comes down to it, much of the design doesn't make sense so one more kernel mixed in the pile of shit isn't a surprise.
  • Dime_xDime_x Wasting time Joined: Posts: 9,243
    Moonchilde wrote: »
    What kind of logic is that?

    That's literally the same thing as

    What you said above




    It's the same shit word for word with a couple key changes. Dealing with reversals is a "git gud, guess correctly" issue. Dealing with frame traps is a "git gud, guess correctly" issue. I'm using your own logic on you.

    Yeah, it makes no sense, I agree, but it's your logic.


    As far as arguing with you, read the second post in this thread. I already answered basically all of your arguments in there.
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde Resident tech talk double poster Joined: Posts: 4,832
    Dime_x wrote: »
    But if reversal is so important to beating frame traps, how do you explain characters that win without using reversals at all?
    Dime_x wrote: »
    What you said above

    It's the same shit word for word with a couple key changes.

    No shit, it's meant to be the same word for word, presented in a way to show you why your question is disigenuous.
    Dime_x wrote: »
    Yeah, it makes no sense, I agree, but it's your logic.

    Bro those are your words buddy.
  • Dime_xDime_x Wasting time Joined: Posts: 9,243
    Moonchilde wrote: »
    Dime_x wrote: »
    But if reversal is so important to beating frame traps, how do you explain characters that win without using reversals at all?
    Dime_x wrote: »
    What you said above

    It's the same shit word for word with a couple key changes.

    No shit, it's meant to be the same word for word, presented in a way to show you why your question is disigenuous.
    Dime_x wrote: »
    Yeah, it makes no sense, I agree, but it's your logic.

    Bro those are your words buddy.

    Lol keep your head in the clouds then.

    Er, I'm sorry, I meant moon.

    Childe de lunar
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • NG1313NG1313 Joined: Posts: 1,458
    Moonchilde wrote: »
    IMO, instead of taking away meterless reversal from the select tier that had it, they should have instead given everyone a reversal especially in a game that has so much meta revolving around frame traps and CC. Make everyone strong instead of everyone weak.

    I wouldn't mind trying this out, like if they did this for the pre-release beta, but I like how it is now; you take the risk of a shoryuken, and it's 50/ 50 if you "win or lose", but you need to spend your meter first, because otherwise it's just a free 50/ 50. Regarding characters who don't get reversals, the idea is that their forte is perhaps in the neutral or in command throw mix-ups, and not in their own wake-up, like Balrog with a strong pressure-game but no reversal, or Alex with a command-throw game but no reversal.

    Like I said, I've only really been taking fighters seriously since SF4. Particularly USF4, so I'm totally new to all this. I've been fans of fighters for years, but never felt a drive to compete until I got myself a rival in USF4.

    Though we were rather equal in USF4, with us taking turns owning each other depending on the day, they have been consistently blowing me up in SF5 and I've been tearing my curls out trying to figure out why. One major weakness I've been trying to work on lately is footsies. Due to the problems mentioned, I've been really scared to play footies in SF5, and it made the rest of my game significantly worse. And part of the reason I was scared I now realize is because I was tired of my limbs getting counterhit by Ken/Ibuki (their characters) and then suddenly I get Supered and lose.

    I agree that the neutral feels pretty difficult in SFV. We've been talking about "spacing" so much but this time around it's equally important with "timing". Like if it's in the heat of battle and suddenly my opponent sees me move towards him, he might instinctively press a button but if I anticipated that by observing him, and pressed Chun's b.HP then I'd get a nice crush-counter :tup: It's not easy but you have to try to make yourself feel comfortable because if you're not then it means your opponent has the control, either because of spacing or timing.

    Modesty aside, I'm not really a good player either :bee: But I'm working on being more observant of the opponent so it can help me win, and also aim to change something if I feel that I'm scared of the opponent, because chances are very high that I'm going to lose if I feel that way.
    "Forbidden"? Not today! Shoryuken!!!
  • CrownySuccubusqueenCrownySuccubusqueen Joined: Posts: 19
    edited March 10
    I guess it's just really hard for me to read opponents for the moment. (Not that I've ever really been great at it in SF.)

    Like yesterday, for instance, I played a Laura who kept doing the same sequence: Jump in (block) > Command grab > EX Fireball on oki > Overhead over and over again. I saw it and KNEW what I needed to do (neutral jump the command grab and/or block the overhead) but I never did it. Every time they jumped in, I ate the grab and every time I woke up, I blocked low. My brain knew how I should win, but the rest of me just didn't do it.

    Or like, on one occasion, I tried to anti-air the jump-in but got hit anyway. So at that point, I was mindscrewed and just ate the rest of the sequence.
  • Captain RyuCaptain Ryu Scoot Magee Joined: Posts: 1,115
    If reversals don't come back Ryu is going to need stronger tools in the neutral game. Currently his most effective tools like the fireball don't grant enough reward for the risk especially with the DP nerf. Maybe it would work if he had more damaging AA options. Right now it's just way too easy to get in on Ryu, he's not scary at all. It's hard to open people up mid screen because ryu's throw leads to practically nothing threatening unless in the corner making his shimmy less effective.

    I don't know what Capcom was thinking when they gave these crazy offensive buffs to a bunch of characters while nerfing defensive options at the same time. We have characters that can literally just throw out an ex move and they're in your face dealing gray damage with grabs that lead to more pressure with no threat of a meterless reversal.

    I'm just salty that I spent a year with this character and I really do think he's bad now. I feel like I wasted my time and I'm currently learning other characters with better offensive tools because that seems to be the best bet in this game.
    CFN ScootMagee
  • CipherCipher Catchphraser Joined: Posts: 1,497
    The threat of an meterless invincible reversal came only from 4 characters.

    Basicly 4 out of 22 characters could do that.
    What did the other 18 do, I guess they were sitting in the corner crying Capcom didn't gave them a meterles reversal.
    Look at the other side of the table, not just yours.

    And these fullscreen specials, existed in Season 1 too.

    For me a DP has to be a viable anti-air, nothing more. Reversals should always cost ressources instead of beeing free.
    "Hey this guy finaly whiffpunished you and earned a meaty, lets put him into a 50/50 for beating you!"

    And it's definitly not the DP nerf, what kicked Ryu out of the Top 5.
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  • Dime_xDime_x Wasting time Joined: Posts: 9,243
    It's hard to read people on this game because there are very few control moves in the game and the game is made to be very binary with its options. This beats that, that beats this and very little nuance in between.

    It becomes so that a linear player like myself who is always trying to read the opponent... I'm always one step behind. Like I see a player do option A so I think..
    Ok I'm going to do option B which beats option A next time, but my opponent does something to beat my option B.... normally in most fighting games this doesn't happen. Because my option B will be a multitude of things. But in sf5 in its simplistic form and the way the moves interact with respect to priority, many of the options either aren't there, or are very weak. So now when I see option A, a lot of times it's "smart" to simply not adapt to fast to my opponents obvious blocking mixups.

    Combine that with lack of control moves ( a control move would be a move that does moderate to small damage that can control your opponents options without itself being super risky... example is sf4 ryu cr.mk. Worst that can usually happen is it gets wiff punished by a sweep, usually. But it can't be jumped over and it has good range for keeping the opponent out of crossup range.... in other words it's good at controlling your opponents options and the space they can attack from). There simply aren't many moves that are like that in sf5 and the few that ARE like that do next to no damage. So people largely don't have access to them, or can ignore them.

    But usually the best you can do is a random button. Most buttons have something that will outright beat them, so footsies becomes very "random" with the players doing footsies "mixups" randomly trying to find a pattern or a spacing where the opponent becomes predictable.

    In the oldschool however, there weren't nearly as many viable ground buttons... so you could play neutral as if only playing against like 1-3 moves. And generally speaking the move that won wasn't this beats that, but this spacing beats that spacing. So it was all about spacing for footsies before, but now it's more about differentiating buttons and switching up timings.

    In practice it doesn't feel very fulfilling because it very largely feels random... it isn't "RANDOM" per se, but the element of randomness is there in a much higher percentage than what older streetfighters were about.

    And then add in the "turn based" aspect of the game and it becomes even worse. It becomes hard to read people because every time you do something to train them upclose, you get pushed out or put at frame disadvantage. A lot of my oldschool reads were momentum based. So I like make my opponent block a couple of things then I see the y like to do this so I keep momentum and punish that. But in sf5 I can't usually keep momentum at all so I can't force tendencies. I always have to give my opponent breathing room after every blocked gambit.


    It's like a boxing match with 2 second rounds. Ding ding, both boxers move towards each other, make a couple of plays at feints or actual punches, then.... ding ding back to your corner and wait for 5 seconds... ding ding... both boxers come out do a couple of things... ding ding.... back to your corner and wait.



    Over and over and over again. Like it's just sporadic interaction and offense then back off for awhile into sporadic offense for a second binary box neutral.


    Hard to out think people in these situations because the game is deadset on allowing people forever and a day to sit there and think about shit if they happened to block any offense.
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • Captain RyuCaptain Ryu Scoot Magee Joined: Posts: 1,115
    edited March 10
    Cipher wrote: »
    The threat of an meterless invincible reversal came only from 4 characters.

    Basicly 4 out of 22 characters could do that.
    What did the other 18 do, I guess they were sitting in the corner crying Capcom didn't gave them a meterles reversal.
    Look at the other side of the table, not just yours.
    I get that. I didn't claim otherwise but 3 of those 4 characters are still viable and have good offensive options. As for the other 18 a lot of them have changed from s1. A lot of the characters that didn't have reversals had great offensive tools, command grabs, sonic boom and etc.
    Cipher wrote: »
    And these fullscreen specials, existed in Season 1 too.
    Yes I know and they're even better now.
    Cipher wrote: »
    For me a DP has to be a viable anti-air, nothing more. Reversals should always cost ressources instead of beeing free.
    "Hey this guy finaly whiffpunished you and earned a meaty, lets put him into a 50/50 for beating you!"


    50/50 in who's favor? The attacker receives a much bigger reward for guessing correctly. As for meaty setups, it must be nice to still have those.
    Cipher wrote: »
    And it's definitly not the DP nerf, what kicked Ryu out of the Top 5.

    I agree that it's not what kicked Ryu out of the top 5. I never stated that it was the reason he's low tier now and I've even made suggestions as to what he can get to help him if reversals don't come back. As of now though the topic is about reversals and in ryu's current state it would probably help him if he didn't have to use meter to reversal. If he had other tools to help him in neutral I don't think people would be so upset about it but that's not the case.

    CFN ScootMagee
  • drunkards_walkdrunkards_walk Joined: Posts: 3,276
    DPs are obviously way too strong, and it's not fair that some have them and some don't. What we really need is this game to be like MK, where the only thing separating the characters are their skins. That is what makes a fighter great
    Opinions are like bedsheets: you only change them if it helps you get laid.
  • CrownySuccubusqueenCrownySuccubusqueen Joined: Posts: 19
    Dime_x wrote: »
    And then add in the "turn based" aspect of the game and it becomes even worse. It becomes hard to read people because every time you do something to train them upclose, you get pushed out or put at frame disadvantage. A lot of my oldschool reads were momentum based. So I like make my opponent block a couple of things then I see the y like to do this so I keep momentum and punish that. But in sf5 I can't usually keep momentum at all so I can't force tendencies. I always have to give my opponent breathing room after every blocked gambit.

    Maybe I'm used to this because I come from 3D fighters, where "turn-based" fighting is the norm. Even a basic normal in Tekken is like -5 on block, so you get used to the idea of "Okay that poke didn't work. Now, I defend."

    But I largely agree with what you're saying. What you're saying is why Akuma doesn't feel like Akuma to me in this game. In USF4, I mostly used Akuma and Seth, who were characters who could easily blow up the "my turn" mentality with invincible reversals and command grabs. But in this game, demon flip is so ridiculously slow that when I'm playing AGAINST Akumas, I can use a normal anti-air on it consistently. On top of that, his normals are all around slower and VERY situational. You have to use the "right" normal in the "right" situation, and pressing anything else will get blown up unless it's a hard read.

    It's like they cut the Master of the Fist's balls off, man.
  • CipherCipher Catchphraser Joined: Posts: 1,497
    Cipher wrote: »
    The threat of an meterless invincible reversal came only from 4 characters.

    Basicly 4 out of 22 characters could do that.
    What did the other 18 do, I guess they were sitting in the corner crying Capcom didn't gave them a meterles reversal.
    Look at the other side of the table, not just yours.
    I get that. I didn't claim otherwise but 3 of those 4 characters are still viable and have good offensive options. As for the other 18 a lot of them have changed from s1. A lot of the characters that didn't have reversals had great offensive tools, command grabs, sonic boom and etc.
    Cipher wrote: »
    And these fullscreen specials, existed in Season 1 too.
    Yes I know and they're even better now.
    Cipher wrote: »
    For me a DP has to be a viable anti-air, nothing more. Reversals should always cost ressources instead of beeing free.
    "Hey this guy finaly whiffpunished you and earned a meaty, lets put him into a 50/50 for beating you!"


    50/50 in who's favor? The attacker receives a much bigger reward for guessing correctly. As for meaty setups, it must be nice to still have those.
    Cipher wrote: »
    And it's definitly not the DP nerf, what kicked Ryu out of the Top 5.

    I agree that it's not what kicked Ryu out of the top 5. I never stated that it was the reason he's low tier now and I've even made suggestions as to what he can get to help him if reversals don't come back. As of now though the topic is about reversals and in ryu's current state it would probably help him if he didn't have to use meter to reversal. If he had other tools to help him in neutral I don't think people would be so upset about it but that's not the case.

    You're missing the point, a invincible reversal will not help him, no matter how you turn it.
    Even if he would be the only one with an invincible reversal it would not help him, because thats not his problem.
    His problem is neither that his fireball is ass, because it's ass in many games.
    He should get some better buttons, but not something reatrded as his st.lk.
    He also shouldn't get throwloops back, there is a reason, why throwloops outside of the corner aren't a thing anymore.

    To come back with the invincible reversals, my point stands. Noone should get a free 50/50 for loosing the neutral, it doesn't matter in whos favour it is, a 50/50 is a 50/50. You either guess right or not.
    Now the other 4 chars have to invest ressources like the rest of the cast.

    And no, these fullscreen specials didn't change, they're not better, the best of them just got nerfed and the others remained untouched.
    Now they get through a miracle attention, I wonder why.....
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  • JustinAkatsukiJustinAkatsuki Joined: Posts: 193
    Cipher wrote: »
    Cipher wrote: »
    The threat of an meterless invincible reversal came only from 4 characters.

    Basicly 4 out of 22 characters could do that.
    What did the other 18 do, I guess they were sitting in the corner crying Capcom didn't gave them a meterles reversal.
    Look at the other side of the table, not just yours.
    I get that. I didn't claim otherwise but 3 of those 4 characters are still viable and have good offensive options. As for the other 18 a lot of them have changed from s1. A lot of the characters that didn't have reversals had great offensive tools, command grabs, sonic boom and etc.
    Cipher wrote: »
    And these fullscreen specials, existed in Season 1 too.
    Yes I know and they're even better now.
    Cipher wrote: »
    For me a DP has to be a viable anti-air, nothing more. Reversals should always cost ressources instead of beeing free.
    "Hey this guy finaly whiffpunished you and earned a meaty, lets put him into a 50/50 for beating you!"


    50/50 in who's favor? The attacker receives a much bigger reward for guessing correctly. As for meaty setups, it must be nice to still have those.
    Cipher wrote: »
    And it's definitly not the DP nerf, what kicked Ryu out of the Top 5.

    I agree that it's not what kicked Ryu out of the top 5. I never stated that it was the reason he's low tier now and I've even made suggestions as to what he can get to help him if reversals don't come back. As of now though the topic is about reversals and in ryu's current state it would probably help him if he didn't have to use meter to reversal. If he had other tools to help him in neutral I don't think people would be so upset about it but that's not the case.

    You're missing the point, a invincible reversal will not help him, no matter how you turn it.
    Even if he would be the only one with an invincible reversal it would not help him, because thats not his problem.
    His problem is neither that his fireball is ass, because it's ass in many games.
    He should get some better buttons, but not something reatrded as his st.lk.
    He also shouldn't get throwloops back, there is a reason, why throwloops outside of the corner aren't a thing anymore.

    To come back with the invincible reversals, my point stands. Noone should get a free 50/50 for loosing the neutral, it doesn't matter in whos favour it is, a 50/50 is a 50/50. You either guess right or not.
    Now the other 4 chars have to invest ressources like the rest of the cast.

    And no, these fullscreen specials didn't change, they're not better, the best of them just got nerfed and the others remained untouched.
    Now they get through a miracle attention, I wonder why.....

    Ibuki gets to have her st lk which is exactly the same as Ryu's st lk in season 1 (in terms of range) but yet he loses his and his st lk wasn't even one of the reasons why he was really good in season 1.Honestly stuff with what you just said about his st lk is one of reasons why it was probably nerfed in the first place, too many people bitching about it for no reason and now it doesn't even work on some of his combos
  • Captain RyuCaptain Ryu Scoot Magee Joined: Posts: 1,115
    edited March 10
    I don't see how suggesting that ryu needs something to help him is missing the point. Also I already said how I know reversal dp not his main issue, it's just the icing on the cake. I still think it was a dumb change though, sue me. I never said he should have throw loops, I don't know where this is coming from.

    As for the changes Ryu needs, that's debatable. I wish there would be some more focus on his fireball game but I'll take whatever. His offensive tools and his buttons are lacking.
    Cipher wrote: »
    To come back with the invincible reversals, my point stands. Noone should get a free 50/50 for loosing the neutral, it doesn't matter in whos favour it is, a 50/50 is a 50/50. You either guess right or not.
    Now the other 4 chars have to invest ressources like the rest of the cast.
    Maybe I just don't like the way you worded it lol. I never considered it a "free 50/50" if I got knocked down. That makes it sound like a favorable situation when it's actually very unfavorable to the person on the ground.
    Cipher wrote: »
    And no, these fullscreen specials didn't change, they're not better, the best of them just got nerfed and the others remained untouched.
    Now they get through a miracle attention, I wonder why.....

    They are better due to the other buffs and nerfs in the game. The meta is different now and IMO I think those types of moves benefit from it. Though it could just maybe seem that way to me specifically because ryu isn't what he used to be.
    CFN ScootMagee
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