4 Weeks into Season 2, thoughts on meterless DPs no longer being invincible reversals?

245

Comments

  • QuarkQuark Joined: Posts: 4,125
    edited February 7
    Dime_x wrote: »
    Ryu feels quite midtier now. Basically exactly where he needs to be. Still has some of the easiest super confirms in the game, really good AA, really good fireball, really good dash and cr.mp is a very solid poke.

    which characters do you think are worse than ryu?

    I think the most obvious choices are fang alex vega nash, same as alioune's list (though interestingly nemo doesn't list vega bottom 5). you could also admittedly argue for sim, which would make ryu bottom 6 rather than bottom 5.

    but apart from those characters who do you think is worse?
    "Please understand, I never had a secret chart
    To get me to the heart of this or any other matter"
  • DimeDime Wasting time Joined: Posts: 11,108
    edited February 7
    Quark wrote: »
    Dime_x wrote: »
    Ryu feels quite midtier now. Basically exactly where he needs to be. Still has some of the easiest super confirms in the game, really good AA, really good fireball, really good dash and cr.mp is a very solid poke.

    which characters do you think are worse than ryu?

    That's not how I think about it in this current meta. For me I more have it as top tier and bottom tier. The top and bottom tier are very matchup subjective. But I basically have ryu tied with everyone not named urien,guile, Laura,cammy/ everyone else that is obviously quite good.

    Ryu is meh tier, he wins some matchups but loses more than he wins just like the rest of the bottom tier. Problem is his fireball is a problem in many matchups.

    To me it's less a ryu is bad or good issue, it's a these characters have to many ways around fireballs issue.

    If you pump up his fireballs or normals he wins the matchups that he wins, even harder, and that creates even worse balance amongst the cast and since ryu is one of the most picked characters you create a game where he's going to dominate to much since he's always on the damned screen.

    No all around character should ever be top tier. Top tiers are best when they have big/easily exploitable weaknesses that every character or close to it, can try to exploit.

    And I call him "midtier" because the bottom tier is bigger than the top tier and because I can't think of a true bottom tier character in this game. Every character can pull out some shit, they can all win, including ryu. It's just that the obviously top do it better.

    So a better way to say it is a higher and lower tier rather than a top and bottom tier.

    If I were to grade it I'd have high tier as A and B and lower tier as C.

    Ryu is C for me but C is more than half the cast so C is mid.
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • DimeDime Wasting time Joined: Posts: 11,108
    Yeah, just put hard knockdowns back in as well, win win.
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • AlkipotAlkipot Mayoral Upper! Joined: Posts: 2,037
    Yeah, I think I'm good on facing shotos every other match. I'm all for the dp changes. Every shoto still has solid damage and anti air buttons so no sympathy.

    For the millionth time, you can still have a 1 frame dp, it just costs meter excluding v triggered Cammy and Akuma.
    SFV CFN - EvilMuffinMan (Laura, Guile, ABIGAIL!)
    Watch my terrible MvC: I and SFV play here!
    http://www.youtube.com/user/Alkipot
    Twitch stream: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/200814218
  • QuarkQuark Joined: Posts: 4,125
    edited February 7
    Alkipot wrote: »
    Yeah, I think I'm good on facing shotos every other match. I'm all for the dp changes. Every shoto still has solid damage and anti air buttons so no sympathy.

    that's a non-sequitur. solid damage and anti air buttons don't make up for Ryu's lack of DP.

    his ground buttons are still shit which means as long as his opponent can work their way into CC range (trivial for anyone with walk speed or a decent anti fireball tool) he has to play very cautiously. that means means backing himself into the corner and pressing hardly any buttons. that means frequently ending up in situations where he needs a reversal to have a chance.

    it would be one thing if he had meh defense and meh buttons but amazing offense - that would be just fine. but Ryu's offense is garbage compared to the top tiers, mostly due to his waste of a V-trigger. I don't see how you can look at Rog's VT damage+corner carry and conclude that it's just fine, but Ryu - whose oki has been destroyed and whose scariest mixup is cr.MK shimmy - doesn't even get a DP.

    yes he can spend meter for it, but needing to spend meter pretty much nullifies your "solid damage" argument because ryu heavily relies on super for damage. you can't look at his damage in a vacuum, either, because one of his good enders whiffs on crouchers (target combo) and the other has unreliable range (HP DP) which means he's forced to cancel stray hits into hadouken more often than not. apart from being less damaging, it gives no oki, which means much less damage over the course of a game. you can use EX tatsu or EX shoryu as a whiff buffer instead but again... that EX meter is very precious and you are trading off with your ability to comeback via super or EX DP.

    yes he has decent anti air buttons (well, cr.MP at least) but you will almost never have time for that if your opponent jumps your fireball or a normal attack. the ability to land deep AA DPs was quite important for ryu's zoning game, @Highlandfireball could do a better job of explaining that than me

    finally, advocating for other characters to get nerfed to irrelevance simply because you don't enjoy fighting them is pretty lame. I detest fighting Bison probably more than any other character in the game... but I've frequently advocated for bison buffs, because I think bison mains deserve to have their fun just as much as I do.
    Post edited by Quark on
    "Please understand, I never had a secret chart
    To get me to the heart of this or any other matter"
  • DimeDime Wasting time Joined: Posts: 11,108
    Quark wrote: »
    Alkipot wrote: »
    Yeah, I think I'm good on facing shotos every other match. I'm all for the dp changes. Every shoto still has solid damage and anti air buttons so no sympathy.

    that's a non-sequitur. solid damage and anti air buttons don't make up for Ryu's lack of DP.
    .


    I love you quark :)

    But having said that:


    You know what does make up for ryus lack of a dp?

    The fact that he still has a dp.

    :coffee:
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • Raz0rRaz0r Did you really just write that? Joined: Posts: 26,149 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Not having invincible DPs is trivial. In truth, no one should have lost it.

    I don't even think jab AAs should've gone the way of the dodo. Jumping has and always should be a very risky thing to do in any Street Fighter game. This isn't Marvel or an AWS game. Going to the sky means you're risking heavy damage and a possible mixup in order to a.) circumvent your opponent's ground game and b.) get in to inflict heavy damage.

    Season 2 took out both and now I'm seeing EVERYONE jump. Why wouldn't they? You might AA them 8 out of 9 times but do negligible damage. Meanwhile, on that ninth go they actually land a hit and get you for 40-50% damage.

    What sort of trade-off is that?

    All season 2 is for me is people wanted to fly freely and Capcom gave in.
    Raz0r wrote: »
    I love punk's posting style. Those emotes are hilarious.
  • ValoonValoon Joined: Posts: 1,981
    edited February 7
    Shotos are all bad expect for Ken who is decent/good. That's how it is for S2 imo.

    Ryu is hot garbage, Akuma would be okish imo but the top 5 destroy him free.

    The only reasons Ken is still ok is because he has good conversion leading to corner carry from his subpar buttons and he still murder people in the corner. Actually improved oki in the corner in S2.

    Ryu cannot do anything just straight up. On top of subpar buttons he has garbage oki. And he is no zoner.

    Akuma is good when he is in your face and he has a bunch of tools but his buttons have got to be the worst I've ever seen for the midrange game. His buttons are not subpar, they are complete garbage. Also one mistake and vtrigger Rog kills him.

    So I don't think the DP nerf is what's killing shotos but it's part of it for sure. DP sometimes loose when you AA with it, what the fuck is this shit for real? Having very reliable AA was a very good strength that they had over other characters but this is nerfed and it's more impactful than the reversal nerf. Like it is said above you fail 1 AA out of 10 you loose half your life. That 1/10 is the DP loosing to a jump now.
    [SFV] Ken
    [USFIV] Ken
    [GG-XRD] Sol
  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 10,292
    I agree that Ken is still very good. Playing against @Valoon made me realise that the DP never was what made him strong in the first place, but rather his movement speed, his 20 ways of approaching you, his corner carry and corner game in general.
    It makes really clear that what Ryu lacks is not DPs but tools in general.
    [SFV] Laura (Sakura, Cody?) [3S] Alex, Ken
    [Xrd] Leo [BBCF] Bullet
    [UNIEL] Orie [T7] Claudio
    [MvCI] Thanos and something else
  • AlkipotAlkipot Mayoral Upper! Joined: Posts: 2,037
    edited February 7
    Quark wrote: »
    Alkipot wrote: »
    Yeah, I think I'm good on facing shotos every other match. I'm all for the dp changes. Every shoto still has solid damage and anti air buttons so no sympathy.

    finally, advocating for other characters to get nerfed to irrelevance simply because you don't enjoy fighting them is pretty lame. I detest fighting Bison probably more than any other character in the game... but I've frequently advocated for bison buffs, because I think bison mains deserve to have their fun just as much as I do.

    Holy shit, every shoto just sulks at me for some reason. The way you talk is like DPs vanished from the game.

    Once again, I never said nerf Ryu, nor did I say to irrelevance. I don't give a shit if they take his dp invincibility or not, but since they did take it I'm all for it, and he still DOES have an invincible dp. A change I never thought or campaigned for happened, so I'm cool with it. The 80% chance of Shoto matchups have been reduced. Complain on Capcom unity or Eventhubs or whatever.

    I hate fighting Bison too, where's my nerf devils reverse posts?

    Ryu needs meter for damage instead of get off me DPs? Cool, make Laura's ex clap use no meter. Cuz she needs meter for damage lol.

    Fuck it, back to just 'hold dat' responses.
    SFV CFN - EvilMuffinMan (Laura, Guile, ABIGAIL!)
    Watch my terrible MvC: I and SFV play here!
    http://www.youtube.com/user/Alkipot
    Twitch stream: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/200814218
  • QuarkQuark Joined: Posts: 4,125
    edited February 7
    I didn't say you had campaigned for DPs to be removed. I said it's lame to be happy about other characters being bad.

    if you can't see for yourself why giving Laura meterless EX clap would be more broken than giving Ryu his meterless DP back than I really don't know what to say. apart from the fact that they fulfill entirely different functions, you can't just compare tools in isolation without looking at a character's entire toolset.

    otherwise I don't really know what you're trying to say here. if you want to respond to the arguments I made for why Ryu needs a DP, go ahead. maybe we can have a discussion about it. you seem more interested in channeling LTG's shoto scrub talk than making arguments though.

    "Please understand, I never had a secret chart
    To get me to the heart of this or any other matter"
  • DimeDime Wasting time Joined: Posts: 11,108
    Uh oh.. SHAMING LANGUAGE!

    What will we ever do.

    I already answered the basic questions in my first post in this thread. To go into it agai would just be rehashing it.

    But EVERY character uses super to get more damage so that's a very moot point.

    Funny, when I first brought this up back in season 1, people told me (even if it happened we will adjust, the reversal isn't the real problem anyways) and now that the METERLESS reversal has had 2 frames of invincibility shaved off of it, not even fully taken away, they've gone back on that change and now it makes ryu terrible.


    LOL

    I for the record welcome back meterless reversals, not just for the big 4 though, for basically everyone/ most characters.

    IF THEY BRING HARD KNOCKDOWNS BACK.

    Meterless reversal in a game where you can already mixup your wakeup timings Is fucking overkill.

    I play Laura who doesn't even have a reversal outside super and it basically means nothing because mixing up wakeup options is actually better than old school games where you had a meterless dp and hard knockdown.

    People want both a quick rise a backrise AND a meterless dp... fuck that noise.
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • DimeDime Wasting time Joined: Posts: 11,108
    Or here's another option:

    Make back and quickrise cost a bar of v meter or a bar of supermeter. Keep meterless reversals. But now you have to pay for oki sidestepping privileges.

    Only problem would be that this would unnecessarily gimp characters with no reversals, I think.

    Hmmm
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • QuarkQuark Joined: Posts: 4,125
    edited February 8
    Dime_x wrote: »
    But EVERY character uses super to get more damage so that's a very moot point.

    some characters are more reliant on it than others. I already explained why it's particularly important for ryu so I'm not going to rehash my point, either.
    Dime_x wrote: »
    Funny, when I first brought this up back in season 1, people told me (even if it happened we will adjust, the reversal isn't the real problem anyways) and now that the METERLESS reversal has had 2 frames of invincibility shaved off of it, not even fully taken away, they've gone back on that change and now it makes ryu terrible.

    maybe ryu players said that, I didn't play ryu S1 so I wouldn't know. in all fairness, though, most of us didn't think that DPs were going to lose air invincibility as well as ground invincibility. we also didn't know Ryu was going to get nerfed in a bunch of other ways that would aggravate the loss of his meterless DP.

    hell... I just thought they were going to nerf his j.LK and throw loop and call it a day. if those were the only nerfs they made apart from the meterless DP change than ofc it wouldn't be such a huge loss.

    but there's a reason I'm talking about Ryu here and not DP characters in general. cammy and necalli lost their meterless DP but are still top tier because they suffered minimal losses otherwise.
    Dime_x wrote: »

    Meterless reversal in a game where you can already mixup your wakeup timings Is fucking overkill.

    half of S1's top 8 did just fine with no meterless reversal. in fact mika and nash had no reversal at all and still won the biggest 2 tournaments of the year. there was not 1 meterless DP character in the grand finals of capcup or evo.

    so there's simply no empirical basis for the claim that meterless DPs are innately broken or impossible to balance around in this game. it might make sense in theory but we have a year's worth of data now and the data says otherwise. the characters who had meterless DPs were very strong but not even close to broken, and many of the reasons they were strong had nothing to do with their DP.

    it's true that mixing up wakeup timings makes defense stronger, but you're neglecting that the CC system makes DPs MASSIVELY more punishable than they were in past games. that's why the characters without a meterless DP could ultimately still compete.

    I would love it if they brought back hard knockdowns though, can't disagree with that.

    "Please understand, I never had a secret chart
    To get me to the heart of this or any other matter"
  • DimeDime Wasting time Joined: Posts: 11,108
    Dont agree with much of that and im pretty sure most evidence is on my side. The only evidence to the contrary is daigo losing and not many other ryus stepping up to the plate.

    1. The dp aa thing is dumb and needs to go but its a red herring at this point. Your not going to get back meterless dp just because 1 in15 dps get beaten because you timed them to late. You can still use jab or cr.hp or cr.mp or ex dp.
    2. As far as it being theory, thats like walking into a wall and saying the wall is only theoretical.


    Ive already stated what ryus true problems are, and what needs to be done to rectify that situation.


    And as far as hard knowkdowns is concerned, yeah, its true. But its the way the game is so until they come back or until sf6 comes out and capcom proves it has a brain working there and the hkd comes back... nope, no meterless dps.
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • QuarkQuark Joined: Posts: 4,125
    edited February 8
    Dime_x wrote: »
    Dont agree with much of that and im pretty sure most evidence is on my side. The only evidence to the contrary is daigo losing and not many other ryus stepping up to the plate.

    you don't think the fact that evo and capcup were won by characters without reversals is evidence that you didn't need a reversal to succeed?
    "Please understand, I never had a secret chart
    To get me to the heart of this or any other matter"
  • DimeDime Wasting time Joined: Posts: 11,108
    The fact that nash immediately fell off after the win is evidence that people didnt know the matchup. The fact that mika won capcup is evidence that having 2 characters to cover each others bad matchups was a smart thing.

    Mika didnt win capcup on her own. Guile covered her bad matchups and she covered his.
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • QuarkQuark Joined: Posts: 4,125
    edited February 8
    what about Fuudo? or Yukadon? or the 3 chuns who also made top 8 at CapCup?

    only 2 of the top 8 players at CapCup used characters with meterless reversals

    and only 6 of the top 16 players used characters with meterless reversals.

    this was the final CPT tournament so you can't exactly make arguments about the meta not being figured out yet.

    sure, there are other tournaments we could look at for data, but all of these players were kicking ass consistently throughout the year with the possible exception of Fchamp and mr. crimson.

    I think you'd have to willfully cherry pick results to come to the conclusion that meterless DP characters were broken. were they good? yes, but not good enough to lend credence to the claim that meterless DPs are impossible to balance around in SFV.
    "Please understand, I never had a secret chart
    To get me to the heart of this or any other matter"
  • DimeDime Wasting time Joined: Posts: 11,108
    edited February 8
    Quark wrote: »
    what about Fuudo? or Yukadon? or the 3 chuns who also made top 8 at CapCup?

    only 2 of the top 8 players at CapCup used characters with meterless reversals

    and only 6 of the top 16 players used characters with meterless reversals.

    this was the final CPT tournament so you can't exactly make arguments about the meta not being figured out yet.

    sure, there are other tournaments we could look at for data, but all of these players were kicking ass consistently throughout the year with the possible exception of Fchamp and mr. crimson.

    I think you'd have to willfully cherry pick results to come to the conclusion that meterless DP characters were broken. were they good? yes, but not good enough to lend credence to the claim that meterless DPs are impossible to balance around in SFV.

    There are (were) 4 meterless dp characters in the game. The game has... 22 characters last I checked (can't be bothered right now)

    So there being 4 in top 16 and 2 in top 8 seems rather natural.
    Having small pokes is less of a detriment in this game than basically any other streetfighter because of how good and easy it is to counterpoke people's ranged buttons with your lesser ranged buttons. That's why I went to Laura. After getting counterpoked all day against my ranged limbs I realised what's the fucking point if I can just get counterpoked?

    And so yeah. I just counterpoke now. Shit is dumb but I ain't complaining. It's just a dumb game. But I don't see stubby normals as the big weakness I once did, at least not versus characters with longer normals.


    And finally I don't think quoting evo or capcup is the way to go. It's very well known that tournament results tend to shift towards the players that know the game better than players using the tippity top tier, at least in the new school/depending on game I guess.

    Look at zero in umvc3. Widely considered the best character in the game, but a guy using hulk/haggar of all people is the best player.

    Like I said, ryus problem aren't his problems. The problem is that characters that can get around his fireballs do it to easily.

    Once that gets rectified, if it gets rectified, ryu will be in a good place and with no buffs to himself needed.

    But if ryu does get back invincible dp then at the very least Chun should get a majorly buffed throw range and a good safe on block/no meter, throw wiff punish.

    The thing is, I'm not asking for Chun to get back a plus on block iall. It was to good. But now it's useless basically. But that doesn't mean that she now deserves to get it back. What really needs to happen is the throw tech windows needs to become smaller or throws need more range or both.

    It's less a "Chun" problem and more a system one. Same as "ryu sucks" is less a ryu problem and more a matchup design issue.

    But I mean, feel free to continue ignoring that point I guess.
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 10,292
    Chun's throw range has already been buffed, now it's the same as most characters.
    [SFV] Laura (Sakura, Cody?) [3S] Alex, Ken
    [Xrd] Leo [BBCF] Bullet
    [UNIEL] Orie [T7] Claudio
    [MvCI] Thanos and something else
  • amrraedamrraed THICC- LI Joined: Posts: 4,844
    Chun's throw range has already been buffed, now it's the same as most characters.
    They also increased the pushback on her lights so the problem isn't exactly fixed.
    Street Fighter 5 : Chun-Li, R.Mika, Juri (MIA) We Kolin now.
    Marvel Infinte :Morrigan/Thor , Ultron/Zero , X/Jedah.
    Injustice 2 : Wonder Woman, Superman. haven' touched since July.
    Tekken 7 : Lars, Katarina, Master Raven. sold that shit.
    PSN ID : moraelgamed
    CFN: Thxymora
    Yes, i play T7 and I2 and i still like SF5 more than both of them, sue me.
  • DimeDime Wasting time Joined: Posts: 11,108
    That wheelchair ryus are in now seems to look pretty comfy.

    Awhile back I told @Highlandfireball to abuse ryus fhp more. Well it seems daigo finally got the memo, in this matchup at least.

    Ryu so low tier with only an ex reversal and a spammable -2 on block hitconfirm that reaches nearly half screen and recovers outside mixup range:






    Gettin' my derp on.
  • AlkipotAlkipot Mayoral Upper! Joined: Posts: 2,037
    Ryu winning games? Against good players?! What sorcery is this?
    SFV CFN - EvilMuffinMan (Laura, Guile, ABIGAIL!)
    Watch my terrible MvC: I and SFV play here!
    http://www.youtube.com/user/Alkipot
    Twitch stream: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/200814218
  • QuarkQuark Joined: Posts: 4,125
    edited February 10
    low tier does not mean "unable to win games against good players"

    try again
    "Please understand, I never had a secret chart
    To get me to the heart of this or any other matter"
  • JustinAkatsukiJustinAkatsuki Joined: Posts: 214
    edited February 10
    Dime you don't have a clue about the character. Solar Plexus a lot isn't really a good idea because the move is slow (You can get hit out of it early) and it leaves you at -2. It does big damage on hit but how many times are you gonna land it against better opponents?
  • DimeDime Wasting time Joined: Posts: 11,108
    edited February 10
    Dime you don't have a clue about the character. Solar Plexus a lot isn't really a good idea because the move is slow (You can get hit out of it early) and it leaves you at -2. It does big damage on hit but how many times are you gonna land it against better opponents?

    Watch the video. Learn. It's easy. Ryus blocked solar plexus only gets punished on the very first try. After that daigo uses all kinds of ways to not get solar plexus punished or even harassed much.

    It seems that you are the one that needs to learn.

    Solar plexus is good against aggressive characters that need to walk or dash forward a lot. Aka it's stinking good against Chun for that reason alone. But it's good in just about any matchup where people have to approach ryu, like how nashes mk scythe is a good tool against people that need to approach Nash. The moves work basically the same. The distances are different and the advantages on block and hit are different.

    As an example though. Solar plexus is -2 on block and gives a combo on hit, meterless for no CH.

    Rashids st.hk is -4 doesn't give combo on regular hit.
    Chuns fhk is -2 on block with near the same startup as solar plexus but it doesn't give combo on regular hit outside v trigger. And even then the move can't be combod into her cr.lp unless it's used at around 50% of its max range whereas solar plexus converts into hp dp at around 80-90% of its max range.

    Different characters of course but don't downplay how good polar plexus is in this game compared to what others have. I hit people with the shit all the time and I don't even use ryu much at all. It's really easy. Throw a fireball or walk backwards a bit, both designed to get the opponent to move forward, then throw out solar plexus.


    It's not rocket science at all.
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 57,984 mod
    Dime is right. Well placed solar plexus is very scary. Safe on block move that you can fish with and get huge damage if it lands. What makes it the scariest is how it's active for about 4 or 5 different frames which is a big deal in this game. If you're unnecessarily whiffing buttons or walking forward at him that's all it takes to get clipped and your life bar goes away

    Ain't nothin, Capcom's ruthless still producin.  Cut em a check or find yoself toothless.  Keep it shill with no confusin.  Niggas say I'm shill...they ain't hard I can prove it YEEEAH


  • QuarkQuark Joined: Posts: 4,125
    edited February 10
    solar plexus is alright but it's not enough to make ryu a good character. if we're just gonna look at individual moves without looking at wider context than we could probably make FANG or Vega or Alex or anybody else sound broken. (FANG's cr.MK is a +3 on block, easy to confirm 2-hitting medium with 5 active frames and good range! can't be low tier with a move like that!)

    anyways, 17f startup means it's suicide to toss out solar plexus within your opponent's CC range, so you essentially already have to be winning the spacing game to use it. if it gets blocked (which is rather likely) it's -2 and gives very little pushback. you lose your turn and spacing, so it's not a good zoning tool like scythe (which has better startup, range, and pushback). it's more of a "toss it out there and pray" move like a CC except with significantly longer range and startup. still good to have but doesn't make up for Ryu's crappy CC game. I would much rather have a standard CC that I can pop from around sweep range for comparable damage + V gauge but with much faster startup. most CC's are safe on block and easy to confirm anyways; that's not unique to solar plexus. in fact spaced blocked CC's leave you in a better situation since they don't place you right in front of your opponent.

    the fact that Daigo did a good job escaping the situations where he was -2 doesn't change the fact that it's a disadvantageous scenario
    "Please understand, I never had a secret chart
    To get me to the heart of this or any other matter"
  • DimeDime Wasting time Joined: Posts: 11,108
    edited February 10
    D
    Quark wrote: »
    solar plexus is alright but it's not enough to make ryu a good character. if we're just gonna look at individual moves without looking at wider context than we could probably make FANG or Vega or Alex or anybody else sound broken. (FANG's cr.MK is a +3 on block, easy to confirm 2-hitting medium with 5 active frames and good range! can't be low tier with a move like that!)

    anyways, 17f startup means it's suicide to toss out solar plexus within your opponent's CC range, so you essentially already have to be winning the spacing game to use it. if it gets blocked (which is rather likely) it's -2 and gives very little pushback. you lose your turn and spacing, so it's not a good zoning tool like scythe (which has better startup, range, and pushback). it's more of a "toss it out there and pray" move like a CC except with significantly longer range and startup. still good to have but doesn't make up for Ryu's crappy CC game. I would much rather have a standard CC that I can pop from around sweep range for comparable damage + V gauge but with much faster startup. most CC's are safe on block and easy to confirm anyways; that's not unique to solar plexus. in fact spaced blocked CC's leave you in a better situation since they don't place you right in front of your opponent.

    the fact that Daigo did a good job escaping the situations where he was -2 doesn't change the fact that it's a disadvantageous scenario

    I disagree with a lot of that. Most CC buttons in this game are punishable if not spaced right. S1 ryu st.lk made sure of that. Now in s2 it's a bit more fair since st.lk xx ex special is no longer a braindead punish to any slightly misspaced CC button, but it's still there. CC by and large aren't free. Urien is the only character that I know of that really has free CC button. And he pays for it with no range on his non v trigger confirms and being a charge character to get out any of his strong specials.

    No one is saying that ryu is good "because of solar plexus" we are saying that solar plexus is good. A character can be bad while still having a good move or 2 or 3 good moves if all the other characters have 10 good moves instead. This is obvious.

    I'm not convinced ryu is bad in this. His design is still good. It's just that the design of other characters with regards to beating fireballs, is bullshit.
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • JustinAkatsukiJustinAkatsuki Joined: Posts: 214
    Yeah Dime just keep convincing yourself that all you want to. The fact you say his design is still good and St Lk ex special was a braindead punish you still don't have a clue about Ryu you just think you do. St Lk in season 1 kept some of those CC moves in check on block so the people with those CC buttons (ken st hk, Karin st HK) couldn't just throw it out in neutral whenever they wanted to but now with his st Lk in season 2 it's much harder. I really hope the patch reverts his st LK back but given what they done i have no faith in this balance patch.

    And yes Solar plexus is good IF you can land a hit with it, if your opponent keeps blocking the move then you're not doing yourself any favors.
  • AlkipotAlkipot Mayoral Upper! Joined: Posts: 2,037
    edited February 10
    Moves are automatically bad if they're blocked? Lol I'm done!
    SFV CFN - EvilMuffinMan (Laura, Guile, ABIGAIL!)
    Watch my terrible MvC: I and SFV play here!
    http://www.youtube.com/user/Alkipot
    Twitch stream: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/200814218
  • QuarkQuark Joined: Posts: 4,125
    edited February 10
    Dime_x wrote: »
    No one is saying that ryu is good "because of solar plexus" we are saying that solar plexus is good. A character can be bad while still having a good move or 2 or 3 good moves if all the other characters have 10 good moves instead. This is obvious.

    well when you say things like:
    Dime_x wrote: »
    Ryu so low tier with only an ex reversal and a spammable -2 on block hitconfirm that reaches nearly half screen and recovers outside mixup range:

    it makes it sound like you think those 2 moves are good enough to keep him from low tier. unless you weren't being sarcastic about him being "so low tier", in which case we're in agreement
    Dime_x wrote: »
    I'm not convinced ryu is bad in this. His design is still good. It's just that the design of other characters with regards to beating fireballs, is bullshit.

    a character's tier is determined by matchups, not how "good" their design is in theory. if ryu's design is "good" but the game is flooded with characters who shit on that design, he's still a bad character.

    I also happen to disagree that his S2 design is good, it seems totally incoherent to me.
    "Please understand, I never had a secret chart
    To get me to the heart of this or any other matter"
  • CrownySuccubusqueenCrownySuccubusqueen Joined: Posts: 29
    edited March 7
    Dime_x wrote: »
    Having small pokes is less of a detriment in this game than basically any other streetfighter because of how good and easy it is to counterpoke people's ranged buttons with your lesser ranged buttons. That's why I went to Laura. After getting counterpoked all day against my ranged limbs I realised what's the fucking point if I can just get counterpoked?

    And so yeah. I just counterpoke now. Shit is dumb but I ain't complaining. It's just a dumb game. But I don't see stubby normals as the big weakness I once did, at least not versus characters with longer normals.

    As a Chun player who was super frustrated with SFV for months and couldn't understand why, THANK YOU.

    I couldn't put my finger on what felt...wrong.
  • NG1313NG1313 Joined: Posts: 1,575
    edited March 8
    Dime_x wrote: »
    Having small pokes is less of a detriment in this game than basically any other streetfighter because of how good and easy it is to counterpoke people's ranged buttons with your lesser ranged buttons. That's why I went to Laura. After getting counterpoked all day against my ranged limbs I realised what's the fucking point if I can just get counterpoked?

    And so yeah. I just counterpoke now. Shit is dumb but I ain't complaining. It's just a dumb game. But I don't see stubby normals as the big weakness I once did, at least not versus characters with longer normals.

    As a Chun player who was super frustrated with SFV for months and couldn't understand why, THANK YOU.

    I couldn't put my finger on what felt...wrong.

    Sure, "the game is dumb" but the guy's solution to counter-poking was to just counter-poke himself.

    Unless I'm mistaken, that's the elemtary lesson in footsies.

    So... "the game is dumb"


    "Forbidden"? Not today! Shoryuken!!!
  • Captain RyuCaptain Ryu Scoot Magee Joined: Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    edited March 8
    IMO it's just a massive buff to the offense in a game that's already lacking defensive options. Now people don't have anything to respect after they knock you down which promotes just going in even harder. Having to use a bar of meter just makes reversals even more risky than before. I think it was a bad decision especially with all the stupid fast/safe and crazy hard to react to EX moves in the game.

    Maybe I'm bias because I play Ryu but I feel like the neutral in this game is worse than it was in season 1. Dealing with Urien, Balrog, Bison and etc. is a nightmare. The lease they can do is give us our meterless reversals back to deal with the nonsense. I feel like AA dp's don't do enough damage in a game where jumping is so rewarding, fireballs are way too risky and the reversal dp nerf is the icing on the cake.
    CFN ScootMagee
  • CrownySuccubusqueenCrownySuccubusqueen Joined: Posts: 29
    NG1313 wrote: »
    Dime_x wrote: »
    Having small pokes is less of a detriment in this game than basically any other streetfighter because of how good and easy it is to counterpoke people's ranged buttons with your lesser ranged buttons. That's why I went to Laura. After getting counterpoked all day against my ranged limbs I realised what's the fucking point if I can just get counterpoked?

    And so yeah. I just counterpoke now. Shit is dumb but I ain't complaining. It's just a dumb game. But I don't see stubby normals as the big weakness I once did, at least not versus characters with longer normals.

    As a Chun player who was super frustrated with SFV for months and couldn't understand why, THANK YOU.

    I couldn't put my finger on what felt...wrong.

    Sure, "the game is dumb" but the guy's solution to counter-poking was to just counter-poke himself.

    Unless I'm mistaken, that's the elemtary lesson in footsies.

    So... "the game is dumb"


    Maybe? But, counterpoking still feels "off" in this game in comparison to other ones I've played. I've used Chun-Li for years, and I was baffled by why it felt so hard to play footsies with her.

    But I've only been playing fighters "seriously" since SFIV, so I thought it just might be me because no one else had any complaints. But he put the exact problems I felt into words.
  • Captain RyuCaptain Ryu Scoot Magee Joined: Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    NG1313 wrote: »
    Dime_x wrote: »
    Having small pokes is less of a detriment in this game than basically any other streetfighter because of how good and easy it is to counterpoke people's ranged buttons with your lesser ranged buttons. That's why I went to Laura. After getting counterpoked all day against my ranged limbs I realised what's the fucking point if I can just get counterpoked?

    And so yeah. I just counterpoke now. Shit is dumb but I ain't complaining. It's just a dumb game. But I don't see stubby normals as the big weakness I once did, at least not versus characters with longer normals.

    As a Chun player who was super frustrated with SFV for months and couldn't understand why, THANK YOU.

    I couldn't put my finger on what felt...wrong.

    Sure, "the game is dumb" but the guy's solution to counter-poking was to just counter-poke himself.

    Unless I'm mistaken, that's the elemtary lesson in footsies.

    So... "the game is dumb"


    Maybe? But, counterpoking still feels "off" in this game in comparison to other ones I've played. I've used Chun-Li for years, and I was baffled by why it felt so hard to play footsies with her.

    But I've only been playing fighters "seriously" since SFIV, so I thought it just might be me because no one else had any complaints. But he put the exact problems I felt into words.

    Frame lag is what makes counter poking hard in sf5.
    CFN ScootMagee
  • NG1313NG1313 Joined: Posts: 1,575
    edited March 8
    NG1313 wrote: »
    Dime_x wrote: »
    Having small pokes is less of a detriment in this game than basically any other streetfighter because of how good and easy it is to counterpoke people's ranged buttons with your lesser ranged buttons. That's why I went to Laura. After getting counterpoked all day against my ranged limbs I realised what's the fucking point if I can just get counterpoked?

    And so yeah. I just counterpoke now. Shit is dumb but I ain't complaining. It's just a dumb game. But I don't see stubby normals as the big weakness I once did, at least not versus characters with longer normals.

    As a Chun player who was super frustrated with SFV for months and couldn't understand why, THANK YOU.

    I couldn't put my finger on what felt...wrong.

    Sure, "the game is dumb" but the guy's solution to counter-poking was to just counter-poke himself.

    Unless I'm mistaken, that's the elemtary lesson in footsies.

    So... "the game is dumb"


    Maybe? But, counterpoking still feels "off" in this game in comparison to other ones I've played. I've used Chun-Li for years, and I was baffled by why it felt so hard to play footsies with her.

    But I've only been playing fighters "seriously" since SFIV, so I thought it just might be me because no one else had any complaints. But he put the exact problems I felt into words.

    I get what you're saying but I just thought that phrasing was a little way out there... :p Just like everybody else I wish the input-response was much faster, but there is definitely some explanation as to why it's at least not on par with SF4, but you gotta remember SF4 had input-delay online while SF5 does not but rather has a universal delay, I guess you could say.. As somebody who just about exclusively plays online, I will definitely say that this is my preference, but still I definitely feel the "universal input-delay". I hope it gets improved a little bit as we go along.
    "Forbidden"? Not today! Shoryuken!!!
  • CrownySuccubusqueenCrownySuccubusqueen Joined: Posts: 29
    Like I said, I've only really been taking fighters seriously since SF4. Particularly USF4, so I'm totally new to all this. I've been fans of fighters for years, but never felt a drive to compete until I got myself a rival in USF4.

    Though we were rather equal in USF4, with us taking turns owning each other depending on the day, they have been consistently blowing me up in SF5 and I've been tearing my curls out trying to figure out why. One major weakness I've been trying to work on lately is footsies. Due to the problems mentioned, I've been really scared to play footies in SF5, and it made the rest of my game significantly worse. And part of the reason I was scared I now realize is because I was tired of my limbs getting counterhit by Ken/Ibuki (their characters) and then suddenly I get Supered and lose.
Sign In or Register to comment.