4 Weeks into Season 2, thoughts on meterless DPs no longer being invincible reversals?

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  • CrayRavenCrayRaven Joined: Posts: 181
    It didn't bother me when DPs were nerfed but I don't play a shoto anyway. I think they went overboard with the Ryu nerfs though. Its funny that they got rid of Ryus throw loop but other characters still have theirs.
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde Resident tech talk double poster Joined: Posts: 4,838
    No reversal without meter means you're free to frame traps all day when you don't have it. Reversal is already a risk you take if the opponent decides not to press a button during a frame trap setup, since CC means a big fat ton of damage. That's the whole point of rock paper scissors. If the opponent keeps pressing buttons and you DP, that's the opponent's fault for being predictable and throwing out the same patterns. CC on whiff reversal was already a huge nerf to reversal attempts, and since there is no focus canceling them, they're a commitment just like the old days.

    IMO, instead of taking away meterless reversal from the select tier that had it, they should have instead given everyone a reversal especially in a game that has so much meta revolving around frame traps and CC. Make everyone strong instead of everyone weak.

    If you haven't learned how to deal with invincible reversal since SF2, then no amount of nerfing to the reversal game will help you. You've had 30 years to learn how to deal with it. Stop pressing buttons mindlessly.
    Disclaimer: I work for Paradise Arcade Shop. My posts are probably biased. Take that into consideration. Bye!
  • DimeDime Wasting time Joined: Posts: 11,108
    Moonchilde wrote: »
    .

    If you haven't learned how to deal with invincible reversal since SF2, then no amount of nerfing to the reversal game will help you. You've had 30 years to learn how to deal with it. Stop pressing buttons mindlessly.

    If you haven't learned how to deal with frame traps since sf2, then no amount of buffing to the reversal game will help you.


    I've already made a highly compelling argument why reversals are different in this game than they are in other streetfighter games.
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde Resident tech talk double poster Joined: Posts: 4,838
    Frame traps in SF2 don't get you near the damage they do in post SF2 games. Reversal is more important now than back then.
    Disclaimer: I work for Paradise Arcade Shop. My posts are probably biased. Take that into consideration. Bye!
  • DimeDime Wasting time Joined: Posts: 11,108
    Moonchilde wrote: »
    Frame traps in SF2 don't get you near the damage they do in post SF2 games. Reversal is more important now than back then.

    Not that that's correct, but I'll leave your first point alone.

    But if reversal is so important to beating frame traps, how do you explain characters that win without using reversals at all?
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde Resident tech talk double poster Joined: Posts: 4,838
    What kind of logic is that?

    That's literally the same thing as asking "How do low tier characters win?"

    Watch Katsunoko vs Reiketsu from USF4.



    Vega has no reversal in USF4 other than Ultra 2 (unlike SFV since he doesn't even have that) and gets steamrolled by Yun's safe block strings and frame traps. 2 massive come backs and 1 perfect against one of the top Vega players in the world. If Vega had a reversal even for meter, that match could have gone completely different and hopefully I don't need to explain why. Tell me you've watched this video and can't see why having a meterless reversal in a character's arsenal is a bad thing. You can clearly see how it affects the game when Yun can meterless wake up kicks and Vega can't.

    It's not any different in SFV with the exception that in SFV reversal is a riskier option since whiff means massive punishment, unlike in 4 much of the cast could FADC reversal and never need to commit other than spending some meter. In SFV however, CC is a thing and that leads to enormous damage from a lot of the cast who can capitalize off it, and even more if they can v.tigger to extend combos and get stun.

    Tell me why R.Mika was nerfed in S2 vs S1? Maybe s.LK ticking into command grab being a 3 frame (or was it 2?) window against a cast with bad reversal options and no 3 frame moves is a stupid fucking idea? Even with a 3 frame normal, you still couldn't beat that because command grab beats normal attack. Use a ex move that is throw invulnerable? Great, they just pressed fierce instead of throwing, so you just got CC for major damage. Instead take the throw every time or guess wrong once and lose. Jump back tech? Guess wrong once, you lose. At least with a reversal, a real one, it requires the opponent to respect your wake up a little bit more, and at least the opponent on the receiving end of something like a 3 frame command grab setup can take a risk to get the person off them. You guess wrong? Well you get punished, but at least this time you have 3 guesses instead of only 2, block or jump.

    Reversal was already "nerfed" by design from USF4 to SFV and now it's been further nerfed because people need meter for a risky move. Why nerf something that was already risky? Why take out a defensive option in a game pushing offense so hard? V.Reversal was supposed to be the answer to that but they fucked that up.

    Why nerf a character like FANG who was already ass tier to begin with?

    Why did the game launch with 8 frames of local input lag?

    I'm not even going to guess why these decisions are made, because when it comes down to it, much of the design doesn't make sense so one more kernel mixed in the pile of shit isn't a surprise.
    Disclaimer: I work for Paradise Arcade Shop. My posts are probably biased. Take that into consideration. Bye!
  • DimeDime Wasting time Joined: Posts: 11,108
    Moonchilde wrote: »
    What kind of logic is that?

    That's literally the same thing as

    What you said above




    It's the same shit word for word with a couple key changes. Dealing with reversals is a "git gud, guess correctly" issue. Dealing with frame traps is a "git gud, guess correctly" issue. I'm using your own logic on you.

    Yeah, it makes no sense, I agree, but it's your logic.


    As far as arguing with you, read the second post in this thread. I already answered basically all of your arguments in there.
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde Resident tech talk double poster Joined: Posts: 4,838
    Dime_x wrote: »
    But if reversal is so important to beating frame traps, how do you explain characters that win without using reversals at all?
    Dime_x wrote: »
    What you said above

    It's the same shit word for word with a couple key changes.

    No shit, it's meant to be the same word for word, presented in a way to show you why your question is disigenuous.
    Dime_x wrote: »
    Yeah, it makes no sense, I agree, but it's your logic.

    Bro those are your words buddy.
    Disclaimer: I work for Paradise Arcade Shop. My posts are probably biased. Take that into consideration. Bye!
  • DimeDime Wasting time Joined: Posts: 11,108
    Moonchilde wrote: »
    Dime_x wrote: »
    But if reversal is so important to beating frame traps, how do you explain characters that win without using reversals at all?
    Dime_x wrote: »
    What you said above

    It's the same shit word for word with a couple key changes.

    No shit, it's meant to be the same word for word, presented in a way to show you why your question is disigenuous.
    Dime_x wrote: »
    Yeah, it makes no sense, I agree, but it's your logic.

    Bro those are your words buddy.

    Lol keep your head in the clouds then.

    Er, I'm sorry, I meant moon.

    Childe de lunar
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • NG1313NG1313 Joined: Posts: 1,575
    Moonchilde wrote: »
    IMO, instead of taking away meterless reversal from the select tier that had it, they should have instead given everyone a reversal especially in a game that has so much meta revolving around frame traps and CC. Make everyone strong instead of everyone weak.

    I wouldn't mind trying this out, like if they did this for the pre-release beta, but I like how it is now; you take the risk of a shoryuken, and it's 50/ 50 if you "win or lose", but you need to spend your meter first, because otherwise it's just a free 50/ 50. Regarding characters who don't get reversals, the idea is that their forte is perhaps in the neutral or in command throw mix-ups, and not in their own wake-up, like Balrog with a strong pressure-game but no reversal, or Alex with a command-throw game but no reversal.

    Like I said, I've only really been taking fighters seriously since SF4. Particularly USF4, so I'm totally new to all this. I've been fans of fighters for years, but never felt a drive to compete until I got myself a rival in USF4.

    Though we were rather equal in USF4, with us taking turns owning each other depending on the day, they have been consistently blowing me up in SF5 and I've been tearing my curls out trying to figure out why. One major weakness I've been trying to work on lately is footsies. Due to the problems mentioned, I've been really scared to play footies in SF5, and it made the rest of my game significantly worse. And part of the reason I was scared I now realize is because I was tired of my limbs getting counterhit by Ken/Ibuki (their characters) and then suddenly I get Supered and lose.

    I agree that the neutral feels pretty difficult in SFV. We've been talking about "spacing" so much but this time around it's equally important with "timing". Like if it's in the heat of battle and suddenly my opponent sees me move towards him, he might instinctively press a button but if I anticipated that by observing him, and pressed Chun's b.HP then I'd get a nice crush-counter :tup: It's not easy but you have to try to make yourself feel comfortable because if you're not then it means your opponent has the control, either because of spacing or timing.

    Modesty aside, I'm not really a good player either :bee: But I'm working on being more observant of the opponent so it can help me win, and also aim to change something if I feel that I'm scared of the opponent, because chances are very high that I'm going to lose if I feel that way.
    "Forbidden"? Not today! Shoryuken!!!
  • CrownySuccubusqueenCrownySuccubusqueen Joined: Posts: 29
    edited March 10
    I guess it's just really hard for me to read opponents for the moment. (Not that I've ever really been great at it in SF.)

    Like yesterday, for instance, I played a Laura who kept doing the same sequence: Jump in (block) > Command grab > EX Fireball on oki > Overhead over and over again. I saw it and KNEW what I needed to do (neutral jump the command grab and/or block the overhead) but I never did it. Every time they jumped in, I ate the grab and every time I woke up, I blocked low. My brain knew how I should win, but the rest of me just didn't do it.

    Or like, on one occasion, I tried to anti-air the jump-in but got hit anyway. So at that point, I was mindscrewed and just ate the rest of the sequence.
  • Captain RyuCaptain Ryu Scoot Magee Joined: Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    If reversals don't come back Ryu is going to need stronger tools in the neutral game. Currently his most effective tools like the fireball don't grant enough reward for the risk especially with the DP nerf. Maybe it would work if he had more damaging AA options. Right now it's just way too easy to get in on Ryu, he's not scary at all. It's hard to open people up mid screen because ryu's throw leads to practically nothing threatening unless in the corner making his shimmy less effective.

    I don't know what Capcom was thinking when they gave these crazy offensive buffs to a bunch of characters while nerfing defensive options at the same time. We have characters that can literally just throw out an ex move and they're in your face dealing gray damage with grabs that lead to more pressure with no threat of a meterless reversal.

    I'm just salty that I spent a year with this character and I really do think he's bad now. I feel like I wasted my time and I'm currently learning other characters with better offensive tools because that seems to be the best bet in this game.
    CFN ScootMagee
  • CipherCipher Catchphraser Joined: Posts: 1,904
    The threat of an meterless invincible reversal came only from 4 characters.

    Basicly 4 out of 22 characters could do that.
    What did the other 18 do, I guess they were sitting in the corner crying Capcom didn't gave them a meterles reversal.
    Look at the other side of the table, not just yours.

    And these fullscreen specials, existed in Season 1 too.

    For me a DP has to be a viable anti-air, nothing more. Reversals should always cost ressources instead of beeing free.
    "Hey this guy finaly whiffpunished you and earned a meaty, lets put him into a 50/50 for beating you!"

    And it's definitly not the DP nerf, what kicked Ryu out of the Top 5.
    There can never be enough Waifus and I can never have enough of them!!!
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  • DimeDime Wasting time Joined: Posts: 11,108
    It's hard to read people on this game because there are very few control moves in the game and the game is made to be very binary with its options. This beats that, that beats this and very little nuance in between.

    It becomes so that a linear player like myself who is always trying to read the opponent... I'm always one step behind. Like I see a player do option A so I think..
    Ok I'm going to do option B which beats option A next time, but my opponent does something to beat my option B.... normally in most fighting games this doesn't happen. Because my option B will be a multitude of things. But in sf5 in its simplistic form and the way the moves interact with respect to priority, many of the options either aren't there, or are very weak. So now when I see option A, a lot of times it's "smart" to simply not adapt to fast to my opponents obvious blocking mixups.

    Combine that with lack of control moves ( a control move would be a move that does moderate to small damage that can control your opponents options without itself being super risky... example is sf4 ryu cr.mk. Worst that can usually happen is it gets wiff punished by a sweep, usually. But it can't be jumped over and it has good range for keeping the opponent out of crossup range.... in other words it's good at controlling your opponents options and the space they can attack from). There simply aren't many moves that are like that in sf5 and the few that ARE like that do next to no damage. So people largely don't have access to them, or can ignore them.

    But usually the best you can do is a random button. Most buttons have something that will outright beat them, so footsies becomes very "random" with the players doing footsies "mixups" randomly trying to find a pattern or a spacing where the opponent becomes predictable.

    In the oldschool however, there weren't nearly as many viable ground buttons... so you could play neutral as if only playing against like 1-3 moves. And generally speaking the move that won wasn't this beats that, but this spacing beats that spacing. So it was all about spacing for footsies before, but now it's more about differentiating buttons and switching up timings.

    In practice it doesn't feel very fulfilling because it very largely feels random... it isn't "RANDOM" per se, but the element of randomness is there in a much higher percentage than what older streetfighters were about.

    And then add in the "turn based" aspect of the game and it becomes even worse. It becomes hard to read people because every time you do something to train them upclose, you get pushed out or put at frame disadvantage. A lot of my oldschool reads were momentum based. So I like make my opponent block a couple of things then I see the y like to do this so I keep momentum and punish that. But in sf5 I can't usually keep momentum at all so I can't force tendencies. I always have to give my opponent breathing room after every blocked gambit.


    It's like a boxing match with 2 second rounds. Ding ding, both boxers move towards each other, make a couple of plays at feints or actual punches, then.... ding ding back to your corner and wait for 5 seconds... ding ding... both boxers come out do a couple of things... ding ding.... back to your corner and wait.



    Over and over and over again. Like it's just sporadic interaction and offense then back off for awhile into sporadic offense for a second binary box neutral.


    Hard to out think people in these situations because the game is deadset on allowing people forever and a day to sit there and think about shit if they happened to block any offense.
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • Captain RyuCaptain Ryu Scoot Magee Joined: Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    edited March 10
    Cipher wrote: »
    The threat of an meterless invincible reversal came only from 4 characters.

    Basicly 4 out of 22 characters could do that.
    What did the other 18 do, I guess they were sitting in the corner crying Capcom didn't gave them a meterles reversal.
    Look at the other side of the table, not just yours.
    I get that. I didn't claim otherwise but 3 of those 4 characters are still viable and have good offensive options. As for the other 18 a lot of them have changed from s1. A lot of the characters that didn't have reversals had great offensive tools, command grabs, sonic boom and etc.
    Cipher wrote: »
    And these fullscreen specials, existed in Season 1 too.
    Yes I know and they're even better now.
    Cipher wrote: »
    For me a DP has to be a viable anti-air, nothing more. Reversals should always cost ressources instead of beeing free.
    "Hey this guy finaly whiffpunished you and earned a meaty, lets put him into a 50/50 for beating you!"


    50/50 in who's favor? The attacker receives a much bigger reward for guessing correctly. As for meaty setups, it must be nice to still have those.
    Cipher wrote: »
    And it's definitly not the DP nerf, what kicked Ryu out of the Top 5.

    I agree that it's not what kicked Ryu out of the top 5. I never stated that it was the reason he's low tier now and I've even made suggestions as to what he can get to help him if reversals don't come back. As of now though the topic is about reversals and in ryu's current state it would probably help him if he didn't have to use meter to reversal. If he had other tools to help him in neutral I don't think people would be so upset about it but that's not the case.

    CFN ScootMagee
  • drunkards_walkdrunkards_walk Joined: Posts: 3,443
    DPs are obviously way too strong, and it's not fair that some have them and some don't. What we really need is this game to be like MK, where the only thing separating the characters are their skins. That is what makes a fighter great
  • CrownySuccubusqueenCrownySuccubusqueen Joined: Posts: 29
    Dime_x wrote: »
    And then add in the "turn based" aspect of the game and it becomes even worse. It becomes hard to read people because every time you do something to train them upclose, you get pushed out or put at frame disadvantage. A lot of my oldschool reads were momentum based. So I like make my opponent block a couple of things then I see the y like to do this so I keep momentum and punish that. But in sf5 I can't usually keep momentum at all so I can't force tendencies. I always have to give my opponent breathing room after every blocked gambit.

    Maybe I'm used to this because I come from 3D fighters, where "turn-based" fighting is the norm. Even a basic normal in Tekken is like -5 on block, so you get used to the idea of "Okay that poke didn't work. Now, I defend."

    But I largely agree with what you're saying. What you're saying is why Akuma doesn't feel like Akuma to me in this game. In USF4, I mostly used Akuma and Seth, who were characters who could easily blow up the "my turn" mentality with invincible reversals and command grabs. But in this game, demon flip is so ridiculously slow that when I'm playing AGAINST Akumas, I can use a normal anti-air on it consistently. On top of that, his normals are all around slower and VERY situational. You have to use the "right" normal in the "right" situation, and pressing anything else will get blown up unless it's a hard read.

    It's like they cut the Master of the Fist's balls off, man.
  • CipherCipher Catchphraser Joined: Posts: 1,904
    Cipher wrote: »
    The threat of an meterless invincible reversal came only from 4 characters.

    Basicly 4 out of 22 characters could do that.
    What did the other 18 do, I guess they were sitting in the corner crying Capcom didn't gave them a meterles reversal.
    Look at the other side of the table, not just yours.
    I get that. I didn't claim otherwise but 3 of those 4 characters are still viable and have good offensive options. As for the other 18 a lot of them have changed from s1. A lot of the characters that didn't have reversals had great offensive tools, command grabs, sonic boom and etc.
    Cipher wrote: »
    And these fullscreen specials, existed in Season 1 too.
    Yes I know and they're even better now.
    Cipher wrote: »
    For me a DP has to be a viable anti-air, nothing more. Reversals should always cost ressources instead of beeing free.
    "Hey this guy finaly whiffpunished you and earned a meaty, lets put him into a 50/50 for beating you!"


    50/50 in who's favor? The attacker receives a much bigger reward for guessing correctly. As for meaty setups, it must be nice to still have those.
    Cipher wrote: »
    And it's definitly not the DP nerf, what kicked Ryu out of the Top 5.

    I agree that it's not what kicked Ryu out of the top 5. I never stated that it was the reason he's low tier now and I've even made suggestions as to what he can get to help him if reversals don't come back. As of now though the topic is about reversals and in ryu's current state it would probably help him if he didn't have to use meter to reversal. If he had other tools to help him in neutral I don't think people would be so upset about it but that's not the case.

    You're missing the point, a invincible reversal will not help him, no matter how you turn it.
    Even if he would be the only one with an invincible reversal it would not help him, because thats not his problem.
    His problem is neither that his fireball is ass, because it's ass in many games.
    He should get some better buttons, but not something reatrded as his st.lk.
    He also shouldn't get throwloops back, there is a reason, why throwloops outside of the corner aren't a thing anymore.

    To come back with the invincible reversals, my point stands. Noone should get a free 50/50 for loosing the neutral, it doesn't matter in whos favour it is, a 50/50 is a 50/50. You either guess right or not.
    Now the other 4 chars have to invest ressources like the rest of the cast.

    And no, these fullscreen specials didn't change, they're not better, the best of them just got nerfed and the others remained untouched.
    Now they get through a miracle attention, I wonder why.....
    There can never be enough Waifus and I can never have enough of them!!!
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  • JustinAkatsukiJustinAkatsuki Joined: Posts: 214
    Cipher wrote: »
    Cipher wrote: »
    The threat of an meterless invincible reversal came only from 4 characters.

    Basicly 4 out of 22 characters could do that.
    What did the other 18 do, I guess they were sitting in the corner crying Capcom didn't gave them a meterles reversal.
    Look at the other side of the table, not just yours.
    I get that. I didn't claim otherwise but 3 of those 4 characters are still viable and have good offensive options. As for the other 18 a lot of them have changed from s1. A lot of the characters that didn't have reversals had great offensive tools, command grabs, sonic boom and etc.
    Cipher wrote: »
    And these fullscreen specials, existed in Season 1 too.
    Yes I know and they're even better now.
    Cipher wrote: »
    For me a DP has to be a viable anti-air, nothing more. Reversals should always cost ressources instead of beeing free.
    "Hey this guy finaly whiffpunished you and earned a meaty, lets put him into a 50/50 for beating you!"


    50/50 in who's favor? The attacker receives a much bigger reward for guessing correctly. As for meaty setups, it must be nice to still have those.
    Cipher wrote: »
    And it's definitly not the DP nerf, what kicked Ryu out of the Top 5.

    I agree that it's not what kicked Ryu out of the top 5. I never stated that it was the reason he's low tier now and I've even made suggestions as to what he can get to help him if reversals don't come back. As of now though the topic is about reversals and in ryu's current state it would probably help him if he didn't have to use meter to reversal. If he had other tools to help him in neutral I don't think people would be so upset about it but that's not the case.

    You're missing the point, a invincible reversal will not help him, no matter how you turn it.
    Even if he would be the only one with an invincible reversal it would not help him, because thats not his problem.
    His problem is neither that his fireball is ass, because it's ass in many games.
    He should get some better buttons, but not something reatrded as his st.lk.
    He also shouldn't get throwloops back, there is a reason, why throwloops outside of the corner aren't a thing anymore.

    To come back with the invincible reversals, my point stands. Noone should get a free 50/50 for loosing the neutral, it doesn't matter in whos favour it is, a 50/50 is a 50/50. You either guess right or not.
    Now the other 4 chars have to invest ressources like the rest of the cast.

    And no, these fullscreen specials didn't change, they're not better, the best of them just got nerfed and the others remained untouched.
    Now they get through a miracle attention, I wonder why.....

    Ibuki gets to have her st lk which is exactly the same as Ryu's st lk in season 1 (in terms of range) but yet he loses his and his st lk wasn't even one of the reasons why he was really good in season 1.Honestly stuff with what you just said about his st lk is one of reasons why it was probably nerfed in the first place, too many people bitching about it for no reason and now it doesn't even work on some of his combos
  • Captain RyuCaptain Ryu Scoot Magee Joined: Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    edited March 10
    I don't see how suggesting that ryu needs something to help him is missing the point. Also I already said how I know reversal dp not his main issue, it's just the icing on the cake. I still think it was a dumb change though, sue me. I never said he should have throw loops, I don't know where this is coming from.

    As for the changes Ryu needs, that's debatable. I wish there would be some more focus on his fireball game but I'll take whatever. His offensive tools and his buttons are lacking.
    Cipher wrote: »
    To come back with the invincible reversals, my point stands. Noone should get a free 50/50 for loosing the neutral, it doesn't matter in whos favour it is, a 50/50 is a 50/50. You either guess right or not.
    Now the other 4 chars have to invest ressources like the rest of the cast.
    Maybe I just don't like the way you worded it lol. I never considered it a "free 50/50" if I got knocked down. That makes it sound like a favorable situation when it's actually very unfavorable to the person on the ground.
    Cipher wrote: »
    And no, these fullscreen specials didn't change, they're not better, the best of them just got nerfed and the others remained untouched.
    Now they get through a miracle attention, I wonder why.....

    They are better due to the other buffs and nerfs in the game. The meta is different now and IMO I think those types of moves benefit from it. Though it could just maybe seem that way to me specifically because ryu isn't what he used to be.
    CFN ScootMagee
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde Resident tech talk double poster Joined: Posts: 4,838
    Reversal isn't a 50/50 and it isn't free. It's a high risk low reward option most useful for forcing an opponent to respect your defense when they're doing frame traps a normal can't handle.

    You have rock paper scissors, well actually more than that but you get the idea.

    Meaty is one option against an opponent.
    Whiff baiting is another option.
    Safe jumping yet another option.
    You also have walk up like I'm going to meaty but block instead.
    Oh, there is also shimmy.

    That's at least 5 options off the top of my head the attacker has vs someone waking up. That means the defender has to decide if he wants to roll the dice and have a reversal beat an attack, which is at the very least based on what I've jotted down, a 20% chance of winning rock paper scissors. This also isn't random, but a thought process from anther human who may or may not be training you to do what they want on wake up.

    It's definitely not a free 50/50 since at least 4 other options allow the attacker to punish the person failing a reversal, which in this game leads to a CC for extended damage and usually a corner carry if you're not already there as the defender. Not only that, but a dropped input during a reversal attempt against a meaty, the one option reversal is meant to beat, results in getting a decent punish. That's a risk vs reward both the attacker and the defender are taking. The attacker takes the smaller risk of getting reversal for a larger reward of good damage vs a defender taking a larger risk to get a smaller reward of simply resetting to neutral.

    What do you get for a "free 50/50" ?? A neutral reset, unless someone like Ryu had full meter and super canceled, in which case the attacker should have respected Ryu at that point since the meta changed the second Ryu had full meter.

    For frame traps it's a similar risk. An attacker could use a normal that is 4 frames of start up that's +2 on block. That means a 2 frame window, which means no normal is going to beat that out. The attacker can do it again, and maybe train the defender to think the attacker is doing something mindless. The defender might see the third attempt and try to reversal to gain some room to breathe, but this time the attacker only did 1 attack and backed off, and the defender just whiffed their reversal. Again, this is all part of rock paper scissors, but in the case of SFV, it's mostly just rock for the defender while the attacker has rock and paper and isn't throwing out scissors.

    Look at the risks vs reward and then think about why it doesn't make sense to nerf something that was already risky. Then look at the change in balance from offense to defense and see how a defender now has one less option to play rock paper scissors with in a game that is very heavy on rock paper scissors. Instead of nerfing the over all game because 4 out of 22 characters had good reversal tools, they really should have given more people those same tools. SF2 had a cast of 16 characters and all but 1 of them had a meterless reversal. Not all reversals were equal, but with good timing and execution they at least worked to reset to neutral when needed. Perhaps if v.reversals actually worked and didn't suck horrendous horse cock then having a reversal that always cost meter for the entire cast would be fine if none of the cast had meterless reversal drawn from the critical arts bar.
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  • NG1313NG1313 Joined: Posts: 1,575
    edited March 11
    In the sense that the question is if the reversal will hit or miss, I'd say it's 50/50 or 50%. You could estimate that individually to say 5% against Daigo and 95% against somebody like me.

    I'm going to stand by that meterless reversals are free, though. If we compare it to stocks you need to pay to take the risk but you didn't with meterless reversals. I think this is a huge step in the right direction because it requires everybody to actually work their way out of a bad situation rather than just busting out the dragon punch.
    "Forbidden"? Not today! Shoryuken!!!
  • DimeDime Wasting time Joined: Posts: 11,108
    Moonchilde wrote: »
    Reversal isn't a 50/50 and it isn't free. It's a high risk low reward option most useful for forcing an opponent to respect your defense when they're doing frame traps a normal can't handle.

    You have rock paper scissors, well actually more than that but you get the idea.

    Meaty is one option against an opponent.
    Whiff baiting is another option.
    Safe jumping yet another option.
    You also have walk up like I'm going to meaty but block instead.
    Oh, there is also shimmy.

    That's at least 5 options off the top of my head the attacker has vs someone waking up. That means the defender has to decide if he wants to roll the dice and have a reversal beat an attack, which is at the very least based on what I've jotted down, a 20% chance of winning rock paper scissors. This also isn't random, but a thought process from anther human who may or may not be training you to do what they want on wake up.

    It's definitely not a free 50/50 since at least 4 other options allow the attacker to punish the person failing a reversal, which in this game leads to a CC for extended damage and usually a corner carry if you're not already there as the defender. Not only that, but a dropped input during a reversal attempt against a meaty, the one option reversal is meant to beat, results in getting a decent punish. That's a risk vs reward both the attacker and the defender are taking. The attacker takes the smaller risk of getting reversal for a larger reward of good damage vs a defender taking a larger risk to get a smaller reward of simply resetting to neutral.

    What do you get for a "free 50/50" ?? A neutral reset, unless someone like Ryu had full meter and super canceled, in which case the attacker should have respected Ryu at that point since the meta changed the second Ryu had full meter.

    For frame traps it's a similar risk. An attacker could use a normal that is 4 frames of start up that's +2 on block. That means a 2 frame window, which means no normal is going to beat that out. The attacker can do it again, and maybe train the defender to think the attacker is doing something mindless. The defender might see the third attempt and try to reversal to gain some room to breathe, but this time the attacker only did 1 attack and backed off, and the defender just whiffed their reversal. Again, this is all part of rock paper scissors, but in the case of SFV, it's mostly just rock for the defender while the attacker has rock and paper and isn't throwing out scissors.

    Look at the risks vs reward and then think about why it doesn't make sense to nerf something that was already risky. Then look at the change in balance from offense to defense and see how a defender now has one less option to play rock paper scissors with in a game that is very heavy on rock paper scissors. Instead of nerfing the over all game because 4 out of 22 characters had good reversal tools, they really should have given more people those same tools. SF2 had a cast of 16 characters and all but 1 of them had a meterless reversal. Not all reversals were equal, but with good timing and execution they at least worked to reset to neutral when needed. Perhaps if v.reversals actually worked and didn't suck horrendous horse cock then having a reversal that always cost meter for the entire cast would be fine if none of the cast had meterless reversal drawn from the critical arts bar.
    Second post, first page. I already addressed everything you say here. Your premise that "you have all these options as the attacker" is bullshit. You don't generally have a safe jump opportunity against quickrise.
    As an example, after Chun knocks the opponent down with ex legs or mk sbk and the opponent quickrises, she has to dash twice at midscreen and then she's at point blank with a plus 3 frame advantage. That's not enough time to safe jump. It's also not enough time to shimmy, if she holds backwards after the double dash and the opponent wakes up with throw or throw tech, they will throw her. So that takes out both shimmy and safe jump as options. Chun right here has 3 options. Do nothing and get thrown or block the reversal. Do a meaty and beat the throw tech or get hit by reversal, do a throw and get hit by the reversal or throw the opponent. Blocking the dp in this situation IS NOT SAFE. You can get thrown for trying to do it.

    In oldschool streetfighter this wasn't an issue. You could safe jump the opponent or even do a crossup, or bait the dp to WIFF. You weren't in throw range if you didn't want to be. But in sf5 you generally will be in throw range. So it's very hard to be ambiguous.


    This makes baiting a dp a hard read in that situation. And since the dp beats 2 out of 3 options it's a pretty decent bet.


    Anyways, like I said I already explained this (and more) in the second post of this thread.
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • CipherCipher Catchphraser Joined: Posts: 1,904
    edited March 11
    Why wasn't this send? Must have missed the button.

    Ibukis st.lk =/= Ryus st.lk.
    I read so many salty complains of people focusing their entire gameplan around st.lk, now are unable to play anymore, because they nerfed st.lk.
    It basicly shows how this button was a one trick pony.
    Also saying "uh but this char has, what I had" is kindergarden level of arguring.

    If you want to help the old sack of bones with the personality of a uncolored brick, ask for better mediums.
    A better st.mk or cr.mk will help more than his st.lk.
    Moonchilde wrote: »
    Reversal isn't a 50/50 and it isn't free. .

    Now reversals are no longer free, because before they were. For 4 whole characters!

    And yes it's 50/50.
    It's simple.
    Each time you do an action on the opponents wakeup you have to think about this option, he either will do it or not.
    If he takes a bait and does it, doesn't change the fakt that he might not do it, even if you bait.
    The fact that reversals are a thing, changes the approche on wakeup, if your opponent has no reversals, you don't take a risk on his wakeup, because he has nothing to stop you.
    But if he has one, each action you choose to do on his wakeup is a guess. Because he might or might not do it.
    Turn it around how you want, he either does it or does it not it's 50/50, the risk reward doesn't change the fact that it is a 50/50 situation.
    And I realy want to see all the safejumps the cast gets from regular knockdowns, quickrises make it basicly impossible to safejump.
    Post edited by Cipher on
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  • airdoojieairdoojie Joined: Posts: 57
    Are meterless reversals still good anti-airs? I often find myself getting trade or losing straight up...
  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 10,292
    They are naturally worse than S1 against deep jump-ins because with the i-frames kicking in later you have two more frames where you can get tagged before your active frames begin. They are still arguably better than most AA normals though.
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  • CipherCipher Catchphraser Joined: Posts: 1,904
    edited March 12
    You have to do them a bit earlier now.
    Yeah, this fucked the timing for a lot of people up, since most DP antiairs were used realy late, therefore trade now or just straight lose.
    It will take time, but if you do them a little bit earlier, you will not notice a difference.
    There can never be enough Waifus and I can never have enough of them!!!
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  • Captain RyuCaptain Ryu Scoot Magee Joined: Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Quark wrote: »
    Cipher wrote: »
    You have to do them a bit earlier now.
    Yeah, this fucked the timing for a lot of people up, since most DP antiairs were used realy late, therefore trade now or just straight lose.
    It will take time, but if you do them a little bit earlier, you will not notice a difference.

    they are straight up worse AAs now. it's not a matter of "timing"

    I don't understand how people can disagree with this.
    CFN ScootMagee
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Get some shill in yo system Joined: Posts: 57,984 mod
    Cammy still has a really good one and people don't jump when she has super because dp super rapes your life

    Ain't nothin, Capcom's ruthless still producin.  Cut em a check or find yoself toothless.  Keep it shill with no confusin.  Niggas say I'm shill...they ain't hard I can prove it YEEEAH


  • PerthoPertho The Runed One Joined: Posts: 22,412 mod
    Cammy still has a really good one and people don't jump when she has super because dp super rapes your life

    except that now she can't expose fraudulent set ups because her EX DP has less range than most throws in this game.
    Ronin Chaos on Pertho:

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    jimmy1200 wrote: »
    pertho attacked me first, saying i get all my life tips from 106th and park.
  • NG1313NG1313 Joined: Posts: 1,575
    In the last two months since the season two update I've had my shoryuken stuffed three times.

    To me it's no tragedy that the rules have changed a little - it's 30 fucking years since SF1. Move the fuck on, unless Capcom reverts this revolution.
    "Forbidden"? Not today! Shoryuken!!!
  • CipherCipher Catchphraser Joined: Posts: 1,904
    Quark wrote: »

    they are straight up worse AAs now. it's not a matter of "timing"

    Give a explanation, because I have no problems and I played yesterday the whole time Ryu in Battlelounge.
    The DP wasn't beaten a single time, they got clean anti-aired.
    There can never be enough Waifus and I can never have enough of them!!!
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  • QuarkQuark Joined: Posts: 4,125
    Cipher wrote: »
    Quark wrote: »

    they are straight up worse AAs now. it's not a matter of "timing"

    Give a explanation, because I have no problems and I played yesterday the whole time Ryu in Battlelounge.
    The DP wasn't beaten a single time, they got clean anti-aired.

    fully invincible DP: never trades or gets stuffed

    partially invincible DP: sometimes trades or gets stuffed

    decide for yourself which is better

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  • coconutz50coconutz50 Joined: Posts: 132
    Cipher wrote: »
    Quark wrote: »

    they are straight up worse AAs now. it's not a matter of "timing"

    Give a explanation, because I have no problems and I played yesterday the whole time Ryu in Battlelounge.
    The DP wasn't beaten a single time, they got clean anti-aired.

    As a Ken player, in S2 just like S1, I have never been clean hit or even traded using Kens MP DP against an air attack unless it was on the way down (I.E. Whiffed).
  • Intuitive2011Intuitive2011 Cr.Mk XX Hadoken Joined: Posts: 3,693
    Yeah MP DP for all Shotos are fine. I mained Ryu in S1, dabbled with Ken in S1 and I'm using Akuma in S2 now. You can still AA as normal.
    "Often times, a loss will strengthen and benefit the player more than a win, so I would say don't be afraid of losing and keeping competing." ~Infiltration
  • QuarkQuark Joined: Posts: 4,125
    DPs still being good AAs doesn't change the fact that they aren't as good as they were before.

    there's an argument to be made that they're 'good enough' in S2. but there's absolutely no argument that they're as good as they were in S1, because it's factually untrue.
    "Please understand, I never had a secret chart
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  • MochaLatteMochaLatte Joined: Posts: 1,148
    Late dps for the auto-correct get stuffed a lot now, you have to hold some jumps. They're worse anti airs now, getting late dps stuffed 1 time out of 10 makes a huge difference.
  • CipherCipher Catchphraser Joined: Posts: 1,904
    MochaLatte wrote: »
    Late dps for the auto-correct get stuffed a lot now, you have to hold some jumps. They're worse anti airs now, getting late dps stuffed 1 time out of 10 makes a huge difference.

    Thats an argument at why they are worse.
    I do the DP's usualy early, because I'm used to it from Cammy. She got more damage from a DP after a specific amount of active frames, if it hit also as counterhit, could your meterles DP hit fpr 200 damage in SFIV and SFxT.
    Thats probably the reason at why I don't notice any difference.
    There can never be enough Waifus and I can never have enough of them!!!
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  • DimeDime Wasting time Joined: Posts: 11,108
    Quark wrote: »
    DPs still being good AAs doesn't change the fact that they aren't as good as they were before.
    .

    They're not as good as season 1, but they are good enough. More than good enough. They are still the best AA in the game.

    Saying they aren't as good as season 1, when the are still very powerful and still better than what most characters have, is disengenuous.

    Yeah they aren't "as good" but they are still great so...
    Gettin' my derp on.
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