4 Weeks into Season 2, thoughts on meterless DPs no longer being invincible reversals?

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  • MoonchildeMoonchilde Resident tech talk double poster Joined: Posts: 4,836
    Reversal isn't a 50/50 and it isn't free. It's a high risk low reward option most useful for forcing an opponent to respect your defense when they're doing frame traps a normal can't handle.

    You have rock paper scissors, well actually more than that but you get the idea.

    Meaty is one option against an opponent.
    Whiff baiting is another option.
    Safe jumping yet another option.
    You also have walk up like I'm going to meaty but block instead.
    Oh, there is also shimmy.

    That's at least 5 options off the top of my head the attacker has vs someone waking up. That means the defender has to decide if he wants to roll the dice and have a reversal beat an attack, which is at the very least based on what I've jotted down, a 20% chance of winning rock paper scissors. This also isn't random, but a thought process from anther human who may or may not be training you to do what they want on wake up.

    It's definitely not a free 50/50 since at least 4 other options allow the attacker to punish the person failing a reversal, which in this game leads to a CC for extended damage and usually a corner carry if you're not already there as the defender. Not only that, but a dropped input during a reversal attempt against a meaty, the one option reversal is meant to beat, results in getting a decent punish. That's a risk vs reward both the attacker and the defender are taking. The attacker takes the smaller risk of getting reversal for a larger reward of good damage vs a defender taking a larger risk to get a smaller reward of simply resetting to neutral.

    What do you get for a "free 50/50" ?? A neutral reset, unless someone like Ryu had full meter and super canceled, in which case the attacker should have respected Ryu at that point since the meta changed the second Ryu had full meter.

    For frame traps it's a similar risk. An attacker could use a normal that is 4 frames of start up that's +2 on block. That means a 2 frame window, which means no normal is going to beat that out. The attacker can do it again, and maybe train the defender to think the attacker is doing something mindless. The defender might see the third attempt and try to reversal to gain some room to breathe, but this time the attacker only did 1 attack and backed off, and the defender just whiffed their reversal. Again, this is all part of rock paper scissors, but in the case of SFV, it's mostly just rock for the defender while the attacker has rock and paper and isn't throwing out scissors.

    Look at the risks vs reward and then think about why it doesn't make sense to nerf something that was already risky. Then look at the change in balance from offense to defense and see how a defender now has one less option to play rock paper scissors with in a game that is very heavy on rock paper scissors. Instead of nerfing the over all game because 4 out of 22 characters had good reversal tools, they really should have given more people those same tools. SF2 had a cast of 16 characters and all but 1 of them had a meterless reversal. Not all reversals were equal, but with good timing and execution they at least worked to reset to neutral when needed. Perhaps if v.reversals actually worked and didn't suck horrendous horse cock then having a reversal that always cost meter for the entire cast would be fine if none of the cast had meterless reversal drawn from the critical arts bar.
  • NG1313NG1313 Joined: Posts: 1,547
    edited March 11
    In the sense that the question is if the reversal will hit or miss, I'd say it's 50/50 or 50%. You could estimate that individually to say 5% against Daigo and 95% against somebody like me.

    I'm going to stand by that meterless reversals are free, though. If we compare it to stocks you need to pay to take the risk but you didn't with meterless reversals. I think this is a huge step in the right direction because it requires everybody to actually work their way out of a bad situation rather than just busting out the dragon punch.
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  • Dime_xDime_x Wasting time Joined: Posts: 9,741
    Moonchilde wrote: »
    Reversal isn't a 50/50 and it isn't free. It's a high risk low reward option most useful for forcing an opponent to respect your defense when they're doing frame traps a normal can't handle.

    You have rock paper scissors, well actually more than that but you get the idea.

    Meaty is one option against an opponent.
    Whiff baiting is another option.
    Safe jumping yet another option.
    You also have walk up like I'm going to meaty but block instead.
    Oh, there is also shimmy.

    That's at least 5 options off the top of my head the attacker has vs someone waking up. That means the defender has to decide if he wants to roll the dice and have a reversal beat an attack, which is at the very least based on what I've jotted down, a 20% chance of winning rock paper scissors. This also isn't random, but a thought process from anther human who may or may not be training you to do what they want on wake up.

    It's definitely not a free 50/50 since at least 4 other options allow the attacker to punish the person failing a reversal, which in this game leads to a CC for extended damage and usually a corner carry if you're not already there as the defender. Not only that, but a dropped input during a reversal attempt against a meaty, the one option reversal is meant to beat, results in getting a decent punish. That's a risk vs reward both the attacker and the defender are taking. The attacker takes the smaller risk of getting reversal for a larger reward of good damage vs a defender taking a larger risk to get a smaller reward of simply resetting to neutral.

    What do you get for a "free 50/50" ?? A neutral reset, unless someone like Ryu had full meter and super canceled, in which case the attacker should have respected Ryu at that point since the meta changed the second Ryu had full meter.

    For frame traps it's a similar risk. An attacker could use a normal that is 4 frames of start up that's +2 on block. That means a 2 frame window, which means no normal is going to beat that out. The attacker can do it again, and maybe train the defender to think the attacker is doing something mindless. The defender might see the third attempt and try to reversal to gain some room to breathe, but this time the attacker only did 1 attack and backed off, and the defender just whiffed their reversal. Again, this is all part of rock paper scissors, but in the case of SFV, it's mostly just rock for the defender while the attacker has rock and paper and isn't throwing out scissors.

    Look at the risks vs reward and then think about why it doesn't make sense to nerf something that was already risky. Then look at the change in balance from offense to defense and see how a defender now has one less option to play rock paper scissors with in a game that is very heavy on rock paper scissors. Instead of nerfing the over all game because 4 out of 22 characters had good reversal tools, they really should have given more people those same tools. SF2 had a cast of 16 characters and all but 1 of them had a meterless reversal. Not all reversals were equal, but with good timing and execution they at least worked to reset to neutral when needed. Perhaps if v.reversals actually worked and didn't suck horrendous horse cock then having a reversal that always cost meter for the entire cast would be fine if none of the cast had meterless reversal drawn from the critical arts bar.
    Second post, first page. I already addressed everything you say here. Your premise that "you have all these options as the attacker" is bullshit. You don't generally have a safe jump opportunity against quickrise.
    As an example, after Chun knocks the opponent down with ex legs or mk sbk and the opponent quickrises, she has to dash twice at midscreen and then she's at point blank with a plus 3 frame advantage. That's not enough time to safe jump. It's also not enough time to shimmy, if she holds backwards after the double dash and the opponent wakes up with throw or throw tech, they will throw her. So that takes out both shimmy and safe jump as options. Chun right here has 3 options. Do nothing and get thrown or block the reversal. Do a meaty and beat the throw tech or get hit by reversal, do a throw and get hit by the reversal or throw the opponent. Blocking the dp in this situation IS NOT SAFE. You can get thrown for trying to do it.

    In oldschool streetfighter this wasn't an issue. You could safe jump the opponent or even do a crossup, or bait the dp to WIFF. You weren't in throw range if you didn't want to be. But in sf5 you generally will be in throw range. So it's very hard to be ambiguous.


    This makes baiting a dp a hard read in that situation. And since the dp beats 2 out of 3 options it's a pretty decent bet.


    Anyways, like I said I already explained this (and more) in the second post of this thread.
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • CipherCipher Catchphraser Joined: Posts: 1,617
    edited March 11
    Why wasn't this send? Must have missed the button.

    Ibukis st.lk =/= Ryus st.lk.
    I read so many salty complains of people focusing their entire gameplan around st.lk, now are unable to play anymore, because they nerfed st.lk.
    It basicly shows how this button was a one trick pony.
    Also saying "uh but this char has, what I had" is kindergarden level of arguring.

    If you want to help the old sack of bones with the personality of a uncolored brick, ask for better mediums.
    A better st.mk or cr.mk will help more than his st.lk.
    Moonchilde wrote: »
    Reversal isn't a 50/50 and it isn't free. .

    Now reversals are no longer free, because before they were. For 4 whole characters!

    And yes it's 50/50.
    It's simple.
    Each time you do an action on the opponents wakeup you have to think about this option, he either will do it or not.
    If he takes a bait and does it, doesn't change the fakt that he might not do it, even if you bait.
    The fact that reversals are a thing, changes the approche on wakeup, if your opponent has no reversals, you don't take a risk on his wakeup, because he has nothing to stop you.
    But if he has one, each action you choose to do on his wakeup is a guess. Because he might or might not do it.
    Turn it around how you want, he either does it or does it not it's 50/50, the risk reward doesn't change the fact that it is a 50/50 situation.
    And I realy want to see all the safejumps the cast gets from regular knockdowns, quickrises make it basicly impossible to safejump.
    Post edited by Cipher on
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  • airdoojieairdoojie Joined: Posts: 55
    Are meterless reversals still good anti-airs? I often find myself getting trade or losing straight up...
  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 8,385
    They are naturally worse than S1 against deep jump-ins because with the i-frames kicking in later you have two more frames where you can get tagged before your active frames begin. They are still arguably better than most AA normals though.
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  • CipherCipher Catchphraser Joined: Posts: 1,617
    edited March 12
    You have to do them a bit earlier now.
    Yeah, this fucked the timing for a lot of people up, since most DP antiairs were used realy late, therefore trade now or just straight lose.
    It will take time, but if you do them a little bit earlier, you will not notice a difference.
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  • Captain RyuCaptain Ryu Scoot Magee Joined: Posts: 1,381 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Quark wrote: »
    Cipher wrote: »
    You have to do them a bit earlier now.
    Yeah, this fucked the timing for a lot of people up, since most DP antiairs were used realy late, therefore trade now or just straight lose.
    It will take time, but if you do them a little bit earlier, you will not notice a difference.

    they are straight up worse AAs now. it's not a matter of "timing"

    I don't understand how people can disagree with this.
    CFN ScootMagee
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Ibuki and Juri BUFFZ Joined: Posts: 53,410 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Cammy still has a really good one and people don't jump when she has super because dp super rapes your life

    Kunoichi is always in V Trigger

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  • PerthoPertho The Runed One Joined: Posts: 21,577 mod
    Cammy still has a really good one and people don't jump when she has super because dp super rapes your life

    except that now she can't expose fraudulent set ups because her EX DP has less range than most throws in this game.
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  • NG1313NG1313 Joined: Posts: 1,547
    In the last two months since the season two update I've had my shoryuken stuffed three times.

    To me it's no tragedy that the rules have changed a little - it's 30 fucking years since SF1. Move the fuck on, unless Capcom reverts this revolution.
    "Forbidden"? Not today! Shoryuken!!!
  • CipherCipher Catchphraser Joined: Posts: 1,617
    Quark wrote: »

    they are straight up worse AAs now. it's not a matter of "timing"

    Give a explanation, because I have no problems and I played yesterday the whole time Ryu in Battlelounge.
    The DP wasn't beaten a single time, they got clean anti-aired.
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  • QuarkQuark Joined: Posts: 3,985
    Cipher wrote: »
    Quark wrote: »

    they are straight up worse AAs now. it's not a matter of "timing"

    Give a explanation, because I have no problems and I played yesterday the whole time Ryu in Battlelounge.
    The DP wasn't beaten a single time, they got clean anti-aired.

    fully invincible DP: never trades or gets stuffed

    partially invincible DP: sometimes trades or gets stuffed

    decide for yourself which is better

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  • coconutz50coconutz50 Joined: Posts: 89
    Cipher wrote: »
    Quark wrote: »

    they are straight up worse AAs now. it's not a matter of "timing"

    Give a explanation, because I have no problems and I played yesterday the whole time Ryu in Battlelounge.
    The DP wasn't beaten a single time, they got clean anti-aired.

    As a Ken player, in S2 just like S1, I have never been clean hit or even traded using Kens MP DP against an air attack unless it was on the way down (I.E. Whiffed).
  • Intuitive2011Intuitive2011 Cr.Mk XX Hadoken Joined: Posts: 3,425
    Yeah MP DP for all Shotos are fine. I mained Ryu in S1, dabbled with Ken in S1 and I'm using Akuma in S2 now. You can still AA as normal.
    "Often times, a loss will strengthen and benefit the player more than a win, so I would say don't be afraid of losing and keeping competing." ~Infiltration
  • QuarkQuark Joined: Posts: 3,985
    DPs still being good AAs doesn't change the fact that they aren't as good as they were before.

    there's an argument to be made that they're 'good enough' in S2. but there's absolutely no argument that they're as good as they were in S1, because it's factually untrue.
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  • MochaLatteMochaLatte Joined: Posts: 1,007
    Late dps for the auto-correct get stuffed a lot now, you have to hold some jumps. They're worse anti airs now, getting late dps stuffed 1 time out of 10 makes a huge difference.
  • CipherCipher Catchphraser Joined: Posts: 1,617
    MochaLatte wrote: »
    Late dps for the auto-correct get stuffed a lot now, you have to hold some jumps. They're worse anti airs now, getting late dps stuffed 1 time out of 10 makes a huge difference.

    Thats an argument at why they are worse.
    I do the DP's usualy early, because I'm used to it from Cammy. She got more damage from a DP after a specific amount of active frames, if it hit also as counterhit, could your meterles DP hit fpr 200 damage in SFIV and SFxT.
    Thats probably the reason at why I don't notice any difference.
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  • Dime_xDime_x Wasting time Joined: Posts: 9,741
    Quark wrote: »
    DPs still being good AAs doesn't change the fact that they aren't as good as they were before.
    .

    They're not as good as season 1, but they are good enough. More than good enough. They are still the best AA in the game.

    Saying they aren't as good as season 1, when the are still very powerful and still better than what most characters have, is disengenuous.

    Yeah they aren't "as good" but they are still great so...
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • Captain RyuCaptain Ryu Scoot Magee Joined: Posts: 1,381 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    To be fair he was responding to a post that claimed you won't notice a difference if you just change your timing. It's not like he came in trying to make it seem like dp's are bad. Still it sucks to eat a jump in combo after a late dp from a recovering fireball.
    CFN ScootMagee
  • DevilJin 01DevilJin 01 Ibuki and Juri BUFFZ Joined: Posts: 53,410 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    edited March 13
    To be fair he was responding to a post that claimed you won't notice a difference if you just change your timing. It's not like he came in trying to make it seem like dp's are bad. Still it sucks to eat a jump in combo after a late dp from a recovering fireball.

    Yeah being a shoto inherently puts you in more situations where your dp will lose. Since traditionally you have to late dp to anti air after a fireball. Cammy and Necalli don't have to worry about that and Cammy still gets 2 season 1 quality dps whenever she activates v trigger

    Kunoichi is always in V Trigger

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  • Dime_xDime_x Wasting time Joined: Posts: 9,741
    To be fair he was responding to a post that claimed you won't notice a difference if you just change your timing. It's not like he came in trying to make it seem like dp's are bad. Still it sucks to eat a jump in combo after a late dp from a recovering fireball.

    That's a fair point I guess.

    I watched daigo this weekend, threw a fireball, opponent jumped it, it would have been a deep AA, daigo did ex DP.

    Winning. Shit took a chunk out as well.


    It's hard to really feel sorry for the invincibility nerf in this exact siatuation since there are easy ways around said thing.

    Necalli as an example can't convert off of 2 jabs in many situations, but he can a,ways convert with ex stomps.

    Now, necalli players don't like to spend meter unless the pay have to, but I do see haitani using the meter on ex stomps from cr.lp when it's applicable (like when he's punishing something -3 or -4)

    Necalli players could whine about not having a good punish at -3 for no meter... but it's meh. He gets a punish with meter. And if he has no meter? Well no good punish then.

    It's simple to me.

    And this isn't saying ryu couldn't use a buff here or there in certain places.
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • Captain RyuCaptain Ryu Scoot Magee Joined: Posts: 1,381 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    Yeah, I've been using ex dp a lot as an AA because of the damage. I figured I'd try to get as much damage as I can off AA's to discourage jumping more.
    CFN ScootMagee
  • NG1313NG1313 Joined: Posts: 1,547
    I dunno.. I actually want the opponent to keep jumping so I can keep getting that free DMG :) That's kind of why it's not so ideal with a two million health-power damaging shoryuken, because nobody would jump into your anti-air then. With Akuma I'm willing to spend the meter for the anti-air though..
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  • MochaLatteMochaLatte Joined: Posts: 1,007
    edited March 14
    Cipher wrote: »
    MochaLatte wrote: »
    Late dps for the auto-correct get stuffed a lot now, you have to hold some jumps. They're worse anti airs now, getting late dps stuffed 1 time out of 10 makes a huge difference.

    Thats an argument at why they are worse.
    I do the DP's usualy early, because I'm used to it from Cammy. She got more damage from a DP after a specific amount of active frames, if it hit also as counterhit, could your meterles DP hit fpr 200 damage in SFIV and SFxT.
    Thats probably the reason at why I don't notice any difference.

    The big deal comes from the fact that when certain jumps are ambiguous, late dp is the best answer which will now get stuffed.

    When you're focused really heavily on the ground game and someone jumps, you can really only react with a late dp a lot of the time which gets stuffed now. It's hard to play neutral when your normals are relatively weak, compensation comes with the fireball (risky) and with tunnel vision on the ground game. You need razor sharp focus to compete in the ground game with a shoto, and taking away the ability to twitch react with a late dp hurts a shoto's neutral a lot.

    Try fighting against urien, having to take into consideration all the options he has and anti airing a yolo ex knee drop without even having a meterless dp. Spend the meter in these situations you say? So I'm forced to give up my damage potential and spend the bar just to prevent someone from making a yolo move? Applies to untrue blockstrings as well, and they aren't exactly easy to react to (requires some amount of prediction).

    Without ridiculous normals, anti fireball tools, command grab, or get in free moves, having a dp was the equalizer. At least retaining strike invincibility or having upper body invincibility would be enough
  • Dime_xDime_x Wasting time Joined: Posts: 9,741
    I love the DP salt, especially when the smug DP users all said such things as:

    1. Why are we talking about this anyways? It will NEVER HAPPEN :). ( LOL)
    2. Even if it did happen, it would be fine as the meterless DP isn't the problem, if they took away meterless DP you would just be complaining about other stuff cause meterless DP isn't the problem and isn't why those characters are so represented in top 8's (LOL)
    3. What are you even talking about?
    4. What do you mean the dp users get to use all their meter on offense? That's stupid, you're dumb.
    5. You just need to git gud, you have options to beat DP.




    It's all very LOL worthy.

    The funny thing though is I suspect the fully invincible meterless reversals will come back, but that it will be a berf situation.

    I find it highly comical though that the people saying "git gud, adjust" aren't getting good and adjusting, at least with respect to complaining about the change.
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • MochaLatteMochaLatte Joined: Posts: 1,007
    Dime, you're a scrub, your opinion doesn't matter
  • Dime_xDime_x Wasting time Joined: Posts: 9,741
    edited March 14
    MochaLatte wrote: »
    Dime, you're a scrub, your opinion doesn't matter

    If only shaming language worked on me, or you were good at a GOOD streetfighter game :rofl:


    That must also be why I have people pming me for my opinion because they don't want to deal with with forum bullshit.
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • MochaLatteMochaLatte Joined: Posts: 1,007
    You're king scrub and your voice only resonates with the scrub spirit. Of course the newbies will look up to you. I'll just be trying to convince them to not drink the kool-aid in the meantime
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde Resident tech talk double poster Joined: Posts: 4,836
    Dime_x wrote: »
    I love the DP salt, especially when the smug DP users

    Says the dude being smug about the opposite.
  • Dime_xDime_x Wasting time Joined: Posts: 9,741
    edited March 14
    MochaLatte wrote: »
    You're king scrub and your voice only resonates with the scrub spirit. Of course the newbies will look up to you. I'll just be trying to convince them to not drink the kool-aid in the meantime


    Don't take my koolaid phrase. Use something else like:

    "Hitconfirming without a Brian by mochalatte, a treatise on how to make diamond in sf5"
    Moonchilde wrote: »
    Dime_x wrote: »
    I love the DP salt, especially when the smug DP users

    Says the dude being smug about the opposite.


    I'm only smug because ive had to defend it against hords of shotos that started out being smug to me.

    I rarely start out the asshole but I'm totally wiling to take it to asshole territory if others are going in that direction.
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • javertjavert 'sup Joined: Posts: 1,148
    I side with Dime in this one. Attempts to discuss this in season 1 were met with derision and shallow arguments by the DP crowd, condfident on Capcom being on their side. Hard to have any interest to discuss it now especially if even now they double down on the strawman arguments.
  • QuarkQuark Joined: Posts: 3,985
    edited March 14
    I still totally disagree that meterless DPs needed to be removed but I DO agree that there's a discussion to be had, since "meterless DPs were in past SF games" is not a valid argument for their inclusion in SFV.

    @javert dig your avatar btw

    "Please understand, I never had a secret chart
    To get me to the heart of this or any other matter"
  • Dime_xDime_x Wasting time Joined: Posts: 9,741
    Quark wrote: »
    I still totally disagree that meterless DPs needed to be removed but I DO agree that there's a discussion to be had, since "meterless DPs were in past SF games" is not a valid argument for their inclusion in SFV.

    @javert dig your avatar btw
    If you agree there's a discussion to be had, then ok:

    1. How do you attempt to balance the dp with respect to the fact that vortex is nearly gone as a way to punish dp heavily (in sf4 and older school streetfighters you could lose the round easily if you get your dp punished into big damage and a vortex option) the "vortex option" is mostly gone now outside the corner, so that makes reversals stronger.
    2. How do you balance the fact that confirming into CA/big damage move aka rog v trigger/cammy v trigger is much stronger with max damage being a better option nowadays than simply doing setups, and that meterless invincibles give certain characters free CA almost every round, while still having good defense.
    3. How do you balance the fact that it's much harder to safely bait a dp because of the fact that you almost always have to block the dp thanks to quick getup giving the attacker very few plus frames, if any.
    4. How do you balance the DP when almost all knockdowns give you 3 wakeup timings and 2 spacings to play against... while also having to deal with dp?
    5. How do you balance non standard knockdown moves being much harder to meaty because of fewer active frames to meaty with on the whole, as well as much easier to time reversals.

    Most of these become balanced when you apply "requires meter" to the example. But in this case you are arguing "doesn't require meter" so how do you balance that within the context of the things I've just stated above?

    I have answers to most of them but no one would like most of them and no one has been willing to even talk about the subject so I've just kept my thoughts to myself.
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • QuarkQuark Joined: Posts: 3,985
    edited March 14
    @Dime_x I'll try to answer your points tomorrow but since I'm about to go to sleep I question of my own:

    what do you say to the fact that 4/8 of S1's top 8 managed to pull amazing results despite having no meterless reversal? with 2 of them having no invincible reversal at all?


    I've brought this up several times before and you've yet to give a satisfactory answer. if tournament results prove that characters without a meterless reversal could hold their own against characters who do have one, I think that completely shuts down any abstract theorycrafting about how broken DPs are. we have to start with the tournament results and then construct our analysis from there, rather than starting with analysis then cherry-picking tournament results to support said analysis.
    "Please understand, I never had a secret chart
    To get me to the heart of this or any other matter"
  • Dime_xDime_x Wasting time Joined: Posts: 9,741
    Quark wrote: »

    what do you say to the fact that 4/8 of S1's top 8 managed to pull amazing results despite having no meterless reversal? with 2 of them having no invincible reversal at all?

    .

    A. They were balanced better than the meterless dp characters.




    Ok, cya tomorrow
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • NG1313NG1313 Joined: Posts: 1,547
    I suspect nobody else will jump in before then..
    "Forbidden"? Not today! Shoryuken!!!
  • NG1313NG1313 Joined: Posts: 1,547
    edited March 14
    NG1313 wrote: »
    In the last two months since the season two update I've had my shoryuken stuffed three times.

    To me it's no tragedy that the rules have changed a little - it's 30 fucking years since SF1. Move the fuck on, unless Capcom reverts this revolution.

    To me the tragedy is that removing full invul is such a lazy + drastic move to make. There are myriad other ways you can balance DPs (assuming for the sake of argument that they needed to be balanced). You could change the hitbox (less horizontal range, less vertical range, etc), you could change the startup (slower start up and you get easier safe jumps), you could make some vulnerable to a low profile, etc (plus, an ancillary benefit of this would be that new players learn that DPs are not unfair/cheap/yolo/etc). A knee-jerk removal of full invul for all but EX DPs is, as I said, lazy and drastic; the kind of balancing we've come to expect from Capcom

    You could "balance it" in all of those odd ways too, sure... I don't understand all the negative accusations like "lazy Capcom" though but hey, whatever... :tup:
    "Forbidden"? Not today! Shoryuken!!!
  • OceanMachineOceanMachine ROCKET LAUNCHER GOD Joined: Posts: 8,385
    edited March 14
    Quark wrote: »
    I'll try to answer your points tomorrow but since I'm about to go to sleep I question of my own:

    what do you say to the fact that 4/8 of S1's top 8 managed to pull amazing results despite having no meterless reversal? with 2 of them having no invincible reversal at all?

    Umm... maybe because the top 8 is made of 8 characters and only 4 had a meterless reversal.
    Granted they weren't winning every tournament (EVO GF was two characters with no reversal after all), but I don't think it's a coincidence that every single one of them was in top 8.
    [SFV] Laura, Vega [3S] Alex, Ken
    [UNIEL] Orie [Xrd] Leo
    [BBCF] Bullet [T7] Claudio
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde Resident tech talk double poster Joined: Posts: 4,836
    Dime_x wrote: »
    1. How do you attempt to balance the dp with respect to the fact that vortex is nearly gone as a way to punish dp heavily (in sf4 and older school streetfighters you could lose the round easily if you get your dp punished into big damage and a vortex option) the "vortex option" is mostly gone now outside the corner, so that makes reversals stronger.

    How are reversals stronger? In SF5 you can still lose the round easily if you get your DP punished into big damage. CC for 40% on whiff DP isn't a thing?
    Dime_x wrote: »
    2. How do you balance the fact that confirming into CA/big damage move aka rog v trigger/cammy v trigger is much stronger with max damage being a better option nowadays than simply doing setups, and that meterless invincibles give certain characters free CA almost every round, while still having good defense.

    I don't understand what you mean by this? The former example of Rog, he isn't doing any of that off a reversal, he does that off stomp punishes. From what I recall, he doesn't even have a reversal?

    If it's really a problem, then remove super cancel from reversal moves. Ryu would still be able to super cancel off a fireball from a well placed c.MK xx HDK during footsies and get great damage. Cammy from c.MK xx SA xx CA.

    On the other hand, there is the benefit of the meta changing when characters like Ryu can super cancel off DP. It means you need to think about the match and how you approach it more once they have a full stock and you can't mindlessly meaty on wakeup without taking an enormous risk. That's kind of the point to an evolving meta game. Been that way since ST. If Ryu has super, then don't throw a fireball since that's an easy reaction for Ryu. The player who took that risk made a mistake and paid for it.

    It's the same for Alpha 3, if they have v-ism, then you need to think about what you do because activation gives them invincibility and a lot of damage for a risky poke, fireball, meaty, or jump in.

    Same for CvS2, any number of grooves have a tool that once you have meter for, changes the meta and you need to adapt.

    The point is, you need to adapt, and if they have meter and you know they can do that, then you need to think about the risk vs reward.
    Dime_x wrote: »
    3. How do you balance the fact that it's much harder to safely bait a dp because of the fact that you almost always have to block the dp thanks to quick getup giving the attacker very few plus frames, if any.

    What the hell do you mean? Ryu's best DP on block scenario is -24. If that's not enough positive frames for you, then you should quit fighting games. That's a free CC for 40% right there.
    Dime_x wrote: »
    4. How do you balance the DP when almost all knockdowns give you 3 wakeup timings and 2 spacings to play against... while also having to deal with dp?

    ???? What does invincible DP have to do with wake up timings? If anything, that's a nerf to DP since you can quick rise and the defender is at less advantage than older games when DP rewarded hard knock downs.
    Dime_x wrote: »
    5. How do you balance non standard knockdown moves being much harder to meaty because of fewer active frames to meaty with on the whole, as well as much easier to time reversals.

    Add more active frames to normals. IMO, this has nothing to do with DP, simply the fact that 2 active frames is garbage in general and makes for a shitty fighting game. There should be more active frames on normals across the board. Regardless of how many active frames you have, invincible DP will still win, it just means the attacker is less likely to whiff and a dropped reversal attempt forces the defender into block state instead of free punish state from whiffed meaty.
    Dime_x wrote: »
    Most of these become balanced when you apply "requires meter" to the example. But in this case you are arguing "doesn't require meter" so how do you balance that within the context of the things I've just stated above?

    I have answers to most of them but no one would like most of them and no one has been willing to even talk about the subject so I've just kept my thoughts to myself.

    Nope. The only one that changes is 2, since spending a meter stocks means you can't super cancel, which means the meta revolving around the threat of the defender is completely gone and the attacker has full advantage, especially when at a meter advantage and especially since that means they get to build meter as well while the defender doesn't as they defend.
  • Dime_xDime_x Wasting time Joined: Posts: 9,741
    I feel like that entire post is you not knowing very simp,e streetfighter things... like me not knowing about os dp input earlier.

    As an example... you don't seem to know why blocking a dp is bad. Well as I already told you, you can read the second post on the first page.

    In older streetfighter games you could bait a dp into WIFFING. When you bait a dp into wiff it's a hell of a lot safer because you are further away from the opponent outside their throw range. So they can't do much about you baiting their dp. They can try to cr.mk or cr.lk you as you are outside throw range... but that doesn't generally work.


    In sf5 however, because of the nature of quickrise, you/most characters will only be in throw range for around 3 frames or so AT MOST. That isn't enough to back off out of throw range. It's creates a situation that is extremely binary, which is completely unlike oldschool streetfighter and even sf4 where you could get a hard knockdown and then be chillin inside the opponents throw range as they wakeup, for like 20-30 frames allowing you, the attacker to do stuff like walk up, then walk back, then walk up, then walk back, then walk up... and throw... or walk back and bait the whiffed dp.

    You really can't do this anymore. That makes the reversals much better because it's much more risky to try and bait them.

    And anywho I was specifically speaking to quark about this. I don't see any reason to converse with you when you don't even acknowledge the points. There is no reason to argue. Most of your arguments can be summed up as "nuh uh" and I don't have time for that.
    Gettin' my derp on.
  • drunkards_walkdrunkards_walk Joined: Posts: 3,339
    NG1313 wrote: »
    NG1313 wrote: »
    In the last two months since the season two update I've had my shoryuken stuffed three times.

    To me it's no tragedy that the rules have changed a little - it's 30 fucking years since SF1. Move the fuck on, unless Capcom reverts this revolution.

    To me the tragedy is that removing full invul is such a lazy + drastic move to make. There are myriad other ways you can balance DPs (assuming for the sake of argument that they needed to be balanced). You could change the hitbox (less horizontal range, less vertical range, etc), you could change the startup (slower start up and you get easier safe jumps), you could make some vulnerable to a low profile, etc (plus, an ancillary benefit of this would be that new players learn that DPs are not unfair/cheap/yolo/etc). A knee-jerk removal of full invul for all but EX DPs is, as I said, lazy and drastic; the kind of balancing we've come to expect from Capcom

    You could "balance it" in all of those odd ways too, sure... I don't understand all the negative accusations like "lazy Capcom" though but hey, whatever... :tup:

    How are those ways odd? What's odd is removing full invul from DPs when there are much more thoughtful ways to balance them. That is also why they are lazy: instead of actually thinking about how to balance DPs, they just haphazardly remove invul without meter (That and the fact that they don't make good games anymore)
    Opinions are like bedsheets: you only change them if it helps you get laid.
  • Captain RyuCaptain Ryu Scoot Magee Joined: Posts: 1,381 ✭✭✭✭✭ OG
    edited March 14
    Dime_x wrote: »
    Quark wrote: »
    I still totally disagree that meterless DPs needed to be removed but I DO agree that there's a discussion to be had, since "meterless DPs were in past SF games" is not a valid argument for their inclusion in SFV.

    @javert dig your avatar btw
    If you agree there's a discussion to be had, then ok:

    1. How do you attempt to balance the dp with respect to the fact that vortex is nearly gone as a way to punish dp heavily (in sf4 and older school streetfighters you could lose the round easily if you get your dp punished into big damage and a vortex option) the "vortex option" is mostly gone now outside the corner, so that makes reversals stronger.
    2. How do you balance the fact that confirming into CA/big damage move aka rog v trigger/cammy v trigger is much stronger with max damage being a better option nowadays than simply doing setups, and that meterless invincibles give certain characters free CA almost every round, while still having good defense.
    3. How do you balance the fact that it's much harder to safely bait a dp because of the fact that you almost always have to block the dp thanks to quick getup giving the attacker very few plus frames, if any.
    4. How do you balance the DP when almost all knockdowns give you 3 wakeup timings and 2 spacings to play against... while also having to deal with dp?
    5. How do you balance non standard knockdown moves being much harder to meaty because of fewer active frames to meaty with on the whole, as well as much easier to time reversals.

    Most of these become balanced when you apply "requires meter" to the example. But in this case you are arguing "doesn't require meter" so how do you balance that within the context of the things I've just stated above?

    I have answers to most of them but no one would like most of them and no one has been willing to even talk about the subject so I've just kept my thoughts to myself.

    Forgive me but I keep bringing up Ryu because my perspective is as a Ryu player

    1. I still feel the punishment for a bad reversal dp is pretty big. A good CC combo gets you v gauge and in most cases pretty high damage. Imo this game heavily favors offensive play, jumping is better, aa's are worse, dashes are really fast, unreactable safe ex moves and footsies are generally harder to play due to the frame lag. We also have things like gray damage that really contribute to the amount of damage more defensive players take. So there may not be as many safe jump/vortex situations (which I actually wasn't a fan of in 4) but it honestly doesn't seem as hard to open people up as it was in 4. The throw tech os doesn't seem to be nearly as powerful as it was in 4 so teching is actually a lot more risky. Also, in my experience there are characters that are threatening from outside of dp range after a kd. Bison is a good example.

    2. In the case of Ryu in s2 his offense is lacking so I think having a solid defensive option that lets him keep his super would be a good thing. If they gave him something else then we could take that into account.

    3. More often than not you're right about having to block a reversal dp. I also take into account all the points you've made in your original post. I still think the punishment of a blocked reversal is pretty sever considering the other player gains v gauge and deals out a CC combo that can in some cases deal up to 60%. You may not have enough advantage to diversify your oki options in most cases mid screen but the options are still heavily in the attackers favor. You can grab, meaty or block. Meaty attacks are a great option because if they don't reversal you get gray damage into a shimmy mix up or throw due to being forced to go into a throw animation to tech (outside of the jump back os that brings you to the corner). Offense in general is a lot stronger in this game imo even though safe jumps and etc aren't as dominant in this game outside of CC HKD. You can go to town in the corner though. In the end though it's a lot more risky to go for a reversal than it is to attack due to the difference in damage potential.

    4. I get that it can be frustrating to deal with different wake up timings but don't a lot of characters have patterns that can cover all options? Also since screen positioning is so important back rolls can contribute to cornering yourself which can lead to a really bad situation.

    5. This imo isn't just a problem vs reversals, wake up 3 frame jabs can actually be a lot more rewarding in these situations due to ch conversions into combos. I always thought it was very important to have your meaty timing on point in sfv due to how short active frames are. It's pretty frustrating to score a kd just to get jabbed out of your pressure and have it converted into a combo. Still it's kind of random hoping that your opponents meaty timing isn't correct unless you notice they cant time it properly.

    Since this is coming from the perspective of a Ryu player I may sound bias. As you mentioned though Ryu is lacking some good tools so maybe it wouldn't be a big deal if he had more to work with but in the current state of the game that's not the case. I just thought having a reversal felt fair for the character considering how offensive this game really is compared to other sf games. I just looked at it as a solid defensive option in a heavy offense game. To see V reversals and normal reversals nerfed together was a bit disappointing to me.

    As of now reversals are very expensive but do deal a little more damage. Would you think it would be overboard if a metered reversal granted enough advantage for a meaty attack? It is a huge risk considering the penalty you pay, a bar of meter and potentially half your life.

    Defensive play is automatically at a disadvantage in SFV due to frame lag. That means whiff punishes, blocking, aa'ing and etc are all harder than in previous games. I would welcome any defensive options we can get.
    Post edited by Captain Ryu on
    CFN ScootMagee
  • NG1313NG1313 Joined: Posts: 1,547
    edited March 14
    NG1313 wrote: »
    NG1313 wrote: »
    In the last two months since the season two update I've had my shoryuken stuffed three times.

    To me it's no tragedy that the rules have changed a little - it's 30 fucking years since SF1. Move the fuck on, unless Capcom reverts this revolution.

    To me the tragedy is that removing full invul is such a lazy + drastic move to make. There are myriad other ways you can balance DPs (assuming for the sake of argument that they needed to be balanced). You could change the hitbox (less horizontal range, less vertical range, etc), you could change the startup (slower start up and you get easier safe jumps), you could make some vulnerable to a low profile, etc (plus, an ancillary benefit of this would be that new players learn that DPs are not unfair/cheap/yolo/etc). A knee-jerk removal of full invul for all but EX DPs is, as I said, lazy and drastic; the kind of balancing we've come to expect from Capcom

    You could "balance it" in all of those odd ways too, sure... I don't understand all the negative accusations like "lazy Capcom" though but hey, whatever... :tup:

    How are those ways odd? What's odd is removing full invul from DPs when there are much more thoughtful ways to balance them. That is also why they are lazy: instead of actually thinking about how to balance DPs, they just haphazardly remove invul without meter (That and the fact that they don't make good games anymore)

    Your suggestions are just very arbitrary - I prefer clearly defined rules with ideally no exceptions so the game is easy to understand like chess. Calling this move lazy is to me like calling somebody who doesn't do acrobatic flips and stunts while shooting someone with a pistol a bad killer. Anyways, I'd like to hear more on this discussion between Dime and Quark - feel free to join them - I'd like to just listen for now.
    "Forbidden"? Not today! Shoryuken!!!
  • AlkipotAlkipot Purse first, ass last Joined: Posts: 1,758
    "You shouldn't be able to pressure me, only I should be able to pressure you! Having to block like everyone else is unfair! robots!"

    - Shotos
    SFV CFN - EvilMuffinMan (Laura, Guile, Birdie)
    Watch my terrible SFV/For Honor/UFC2 play here!
    http://www.youtube.com/user/Alkipot
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde Resident tech talk double poster Joined: Posts: 4,836
    Dime_x wrote: »
    I feel like that entire post is you not knowing very simp,e streetfighter things... like me not knowing about os dp input earlier.

    I never suggested you didn't know about os dp input, I don't know which post of mine you got that from or what that has to do with a response to me. Instead of being smug, why don't you point out the "very simple street fighter things" I don't know, because it seems to me that you avoid discussing simple street fighter things and would rather be smug.
    Dime_x wrote: »
    As an example... you don't seem to know why blocking a dp is bad. Well as I already told you, you can read the second post on the first page.

    No, explain why a blocked DP at - 24 is good for the person who just had their DP blocked.

    "That means to bait you have to actually have to block the opponents reversal and that is risky. The opponent could just grab you since you have to be point blank to make anyone scared, or they could jab and then throw you."

    That's not a blocked DP. If you didn't block a DP, then you're not blocking a DP. Someone throws you instead of doing a DP when you're trying to bait a DP, that is not blocking DP!

    "These are 2 options that you never really had to deal with in the streetfighter series if you played the oki game right."

    You're wrong about never having to deal with wake up throws when baiting a DP in the hopes to block and punish in older games. You need to play some ST. You get point blank to do anything in that game you could get grabbed. Grabs are 0 frames of start up. They'll beat close proximity meaty attempts 100% of the time. They have no animation start up so a wake up throw is even more powerful in that game than in SF5. By your logic, why should anyone try to bait a DP when they could get thrown? Why should anyone ever try to meaty in that game? Risk vs reward and you know what? People do it because most humans can't perfectly execute reversal or throw attempts on wake up 100% of the time.
    Dime_x wrote: »
    In older streetfighter games you could bait a dp into WIFFING. When you bait a dp into wiff it's a hell of a lot safer because you are further away from the opponent outside their throw range. So they can't do much about you baiting their dp. They can try to cr.mk or cr.lk you as you are outside throw range... but that doesn't generally work.

    So you can't bait a DP to whiff in SFV? Are you claiming SFV doesn't have a single character who can be outside of both throw and DP range or that no characters have attacks that will cover those short ranges throw and DP covers? Every character has to be point blank to bait a DP? If c.MK or c.LK on characters is outside of throw range, why doesn't it generally work? Is it because it might get hit by DP? Is this something that can't be used to train an opponent to whiff a DP?
    Dime_x wrote: »
    In sf5 however, because of the nature of quickrise, you/most characters will only be in throw range for around 3 frames or so AT MOST. That isn't enough to back off out of throw range. It's creates a situation that is extremely binary, which is completely unlike oldschool streetfighter and even sf4 where you could get a hard knockdown and then be chillin inside the opponents throw range as they wakeup, for like 20-30 frames allowing you, the attacker to do stuff like walk up, then walk back, then walk up, then walk back, then walk up... and throw... or walk back and bait the whiffed dp.

    Does Alpha 3 count as old school SF? Because you get ground and air recovery options in that game, and it still has invincible DP reversals along with other options, throw ranges are better and faster, and yet you can still bait wake up reverals in that game.

    What about CvS2?

    How are people able to bait wake up options in those games?

    So someone quick rises and throws you. Why didn't you train them that you'll press buttons? Or take the throw, quick rise, and be on your feet again if it's such a good optoin to quick rise everything?
    Dime_x wrote: »
    You really can't do this anymore. That makes the reversals much better because it's much more risky to try and bait them.

    Yet it's far more risky for the defender to use the reversal. How does that compute?? You have a number of options to bait reversal, and since a lot of people don't throw out reversals because they're risky you're probably going to be able to do nearly anything you wait as the attacker.
    Dime_x wrote: »
    And anywho I was specifically speaking to quark about this. I don't see any reason to converse with you when you don't even acknowledge the points. There is no reason to argue. Most of your arguments can be summed up as "nuh uh" and I don't have time for that.

    Open forum, if you want to debate privately then leave and take it to PM with Quark. I've also quoted your points specifically several times and counter pointed, but you're too busy being smug and telling people they don't know jack shit about street fighter when they don't agree with everything you write. GGs dude.
  • NG1313NG1313 Joined: Posts: 1,547
    edited March 14
    Moonchilde dude, you need some vitamins, minerals, fresh air and education about something more than the internet. Make yourself a good breakfast every morning, exercise at least weekly, traverse the land outside of the "moon hours" and that'll help you get past this "internet arguing stage"...

    You are so far off on several occasions here.

    For example:
    Moonchilde wrote: »
    Dime_x wrote: »
    I feel like that entire post is you not knowing very simp,e streetfighter things... like me not knowing about os dp input earlier.

    I never suggested you didn't know about os dp input, I don't know which post of mine you got that from or what that has to do with a response to me. Instead of being smug, why don't you point out the "very simple street fighter things" I don't know, because it seems to me that you avoid discussing simple street fighter things and would rather be smug.
    Dime_x wrote: »
    As an example... you don't seem to know why blocking a dp is bad. Well as I already told you, you can read the second post on the first page.

    No, explain why a blocked DP at - 24 is good for the person who just had their DP blocked.

    The problem was that they had the option to stick that dragon-punch in there in the first place. No one here is stupid enough to say that it's a good thing to have something blocked and getting punished - why would you think that??????

    Please respond in a respectful manner :tup:

    Also I should mention that you have some good points, but some others are way, way fuckin' off...... :)
    "Forbidden"? Not today! Shoryuken!!!
  • MoonchildeMoonchilde Resident tech talk double poster Joined: Posts: 4,836
    NG1313 wrote: »
    Please respond in a respectful manner :tup:

    Yet you start your post off condescending? I get more than enough exercise, my job requires me to be on my feet all day. I don't have a cushy sit down job.
    NG1313 wrote: »
    The problem was that they had the option to stick that dragon-punch in there in the first place. No one here is stupid enough to say that it's a good thing to have something blocked and getting punished - why would you think that??????

    You mean like every other street fighter other than SF3? How is it a problem that characters have DP as an option? It wasn't a problem in those games. Why is it a problem now?
    Dime_x wrote: »
    you don't seem to know why blocking a dp is bad.

    As for the latter, the dude literally wrote blocking DP is a bad thing ^ right there above. I want to know why, as that dictates in order to do the action of blocking a DP you must actually block a DP, which leaves Ryu -24 for light DP and that's his best case scenario. I'm probably being a little stubborn here since I'm sure he means attempting to bait a DP and failing, in which case I'd still disagree that baiting a DP is riskier than the defending actually doing the DP.

    I'm open to ideas and changing my opinion but there hasn't been a single convincing argument yet as to why invincible DP is a problem in this game, not when the offense is as stong as it is and the punishment of whiffed/blocked DP is as severe as it is. I'd be with you if they were safe on block or had unpunishable recovery or were just straight up OP.
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